NationStates Jolt Archive

(edit: please note the difference between the background explanation of the subject and the actual question. This is not a request for advice on my personal affairs, but an attempt to discuss an observation that arose from those affairs. Thank you.)

Background (warning - soap operaesque): My best friend's girlfriend has put me in an interesting spot in which I am observing a difference of opinion from various male and female friends. The short version is that her friend is in an abusive relationship. She set me up on a quasi-blind date (can you go out tomorrow, BTW I'm bringing a friend) with this woman in hopes that we'd hit it off and she'd leave him for me. But she didn't bother to mention this to me until after I'd taken the bait and was interested (the freind is "my type"). When I found out she was already in a relationship, I said no way, not until she breaks off with her boyfriend.

I happened to mention this to a few friends, and observed something interesting - most male friends agreed that I'd done the right thing, but most female friends said I should have gone for it.

So what do you think? Do men and women operate under different moral rules?

I'd like to hear why the women you asked said you should have "gone for it". The whole point wasn't just some casual sex, but to set up a girl in an abusive relationship with a good guy who likes her. Having her just cheat on her abusive boyfriend doesn't solve anything.

Individuals operate under different moral rules--it has little to do with gender. And your friend is doing you no favors by trying to get you to be a wedge between a woman and her abusive boyfriend. She may have been working with the best of intentions, but that's a dangerous game to play.

why would anyone who is your friend want to set you up with a woman who has such low self esteem that she would stay with an abusive boyfriend??

I’m a guy, and I think you should have taken the opportunity to get her out of her bad relationship. Often, victims of abuse need extensive emotional support to get out of those relationships.

About your question, yeah they operate under different moral rules. In my experience, the difference seems to wane with age, though.

why would anyone who is your friend want to set you up with a woman who has such low self esteem that she would stay with an abusive boyfriend??
It is often more complicated than that. Those that abuse are methodical. They slowly break down the self esteem of their victims.

I'd like to hear why the women you asked said you should have "gone for it". The whole point wasn't just some casual sex, but to set up a girl in an abusive relationship with a good guy who likes her. Having her just cheat on her abusive boyfriend doesn't solve anything.

"Go for it" meaning I should have gone on the second date that the friend behind it all tried to set us up on after she explained the situation. The exempliary answer was "That's not a quandry, it's an opprotunity!"

It is often more complicated than that. Those that abuse are methodical. They slowly break down the self esteem of their victims.
of course it is.

im not saying the abuse is her "fault" im saying that shes not a good candidate for new girlfriend in her present mental state.

and that his friend has chosen HER best interests (meeting a new man who would cause her to realize that she has a bad deal with her current bf) over HIS best interest (finding a nice girl in good mental condition)

why would men think it was wrong except that its a bad potential relationship for Daistallia to get into?

"Go for it" meaning I should have gone on the second date that the friend behind it all tried to set us up on after she explained the situation. The exempliary answer was "That's not a quandry, it's an opprotunity!"
Oh, yeah, you should have dated her again. If you like her, why not?

I guess I've just got a crude and dirty mind.

So what do you think? Do men and women operate under different moral rules?Hell, yeah. Women can be offended easily by something a man wouldn't notice and vice versa. Of course we've got different moral rules, and my experience tells me that gender (probably because it influences upbringing and social activity) determines morals to some degree, especially relationship and behavioral codes.

Edit: As to your situation, if you think that it's important not to interfere in relationships like that, then don't. I tried that though and failed to stick to it, so I'd personally say go for it. Neither decision is wrong though, since they are both moral. It just depends on which one you find more moral.

Background (warning - soap operaesque): My best friend's girlfriend has put me in an interesting spot in which I am observing a difference of opinion from various male and female friends. The short version is that her friend is in an abusive relationship. She set me up on a quasi-blind date (can you go out tomorrow, BTW I'm bringing a friend) with this woman in hopes that we'd hit it off and she'd leave him for me. But she didn't bother to mention this to me until after I'd taken the bait and was interested (the freind is "my type"). When I found out she was already in a relationship, I said no way, not until she breaks off with her boyfriend.

I happened to mention this to a few friends, and observed something interesting - most male friends agreed that I'd done the right thing, but most female friends said I should have gone for it.

So what do you think? Do men and women operate under different moral rules?
I think you're letting a false sense of "morality" interfere with what could be a good thing for the girl in question and for you. Get over it! :p

I said no way, not until she breaks off with her boyfriend.

Maybe you could help her realise she needs to break off with her boyfriend? Maybe she would rather be with you, but since you didn't agree to the second date, she thinks you don't like her. And maybe she feels that an abusive boyfriend is better than no boyfriend at all. So go for the date, but make it clear, that while you do like her, things will not get serious before she breaks off with her boyfriend.

I would say don't do it. I've been through 2 abusive relationships, and have helped many friends through the same thing. A lot of abuse comes from jealousy and insecurity. While it would be nice of you to be there for her to support her and stuff, what do you think is going to happen when she goes home and says "Oh, I just spent the day with the nicest boy"?

I would suggest you support your friend's girlfriend but stay out of the direct involvement. Probably the most helpful thing to do would be to get the friend's girlfriend some books and pamphlets about domestic abuse and help her find a counsellor to help her through it.

Once the girl is out of the relationship, then you could move in on her, which would help restore her self esteem and give her another support to prevent her from returning to the relationship (which happens all too often.) And if something comes out of that, then go for it ^.^

She probably does just stay with him because he's stripped her self-esteem to the bare minimum and she needs to have a boyfriend. You should become friends with her and help her gain confidence so she can leave him (for you).

why would anyone who is your friend want to set you up with a woman who has such low self esteem that she would stay with an abusive boyfriend??

This is Japan, we're talking about. No offence, but it isn't known for sexual equality.

Hmmm....

A lot of people seem dwelling on the background rather than the question.

Just to make it clear: I said no. I do not intend to change my decision until the situation changes. I am not asking for advice, as I am confident I made th correct choice.

The question at hand is, once again:
Do men and women operate under different moral rules?

Can we please stop the "you did the right/wrong thing" or "this is my advice on what you should do" hijacks.

(Edit: While I do appreciate the attempts at advice, please see the edit in the OP.)

Do men and women operate under different moral rules?I answered that question...:(
Didn't you notice?

I answered that question...:(
Didn't you notice?


Yes. And it is appreciated. :)

Hell, yeah. Women can be offended easily by something a man wouldn't notice and vice versa. Of course we've got different moral rules, and my experience tells me that gender (probably because it influences upbringing and social activity) determines morals to some degree, especially relationship and behavioral codes.

You know, on second thought, maybe the question should have been "In what manner and to what extent do the differences in male and female neuro-physiology affect behavioral codes?" ;)

One of my friends at college did a psychological experiment. He went from dorm room to dorm room with a picture of an attractive woman, a picture of an attractive man, a short description of the woman's/man's personality (it was vague enough to be applied to either), and a survey. Subjects would look at one picture or the other, based on their gender and sexual preference, and read a description which stated that the person in the picture enjoyed music and recreation and was currently in a relationship. The subjects would then fill out a survey with essentially two questions: How would you rate this person's attractiveness? and How desirable is this person as a potential partner in a relationship?

The key to the experiment was the line about the pictured person already being in a relationship. That information caused most men who participated in the survey to rate the pictured person lower as a potential partner, even if they found her physically attractive. The same information made little to no difference for women.

All that to say, yes, women and men have different rules on who's "fair game" for a romantic relationship.

One of my friends at college did a psychological experiment. He went from dorm room to dorm room with a picture of an attractive woman, a picture of an attractive man, a short description of the woman's/man's personality (it was vague enough to be applied to either), and a survey. Subjects would look at one picture or the other, based on their gender and sexual preference, and read a description which stated that the person in the picture enjoyed music and recreation and was currently in a relationship. The subjects would then fill out a survey with essentially two questions: How would you rate this person's attractiveness? and How desirable is this person as a potential partner in a relationship?

The key to the experiment was the line about the pictured person already being in a relationship. That information caused most men who participated in the survey to rate the pictured person lower as a potential partner, even if they found her physically attractive. The same information made little to no difference for women.

All that to say, yes, women and men have different rules on who's "fair game" for a romantic relationship.


Very interesting. So there is at least some possible truth to my observation.

Generally, females are more emotional, so if morals are broken they'll often get into a hissy fit about it. Relationships are fragile things with them. However, it ultimately depends on the individual.

That "difference in moral standards" is all over the map, IMHO. I've met men and women from both extremes and all points in between. I think the real trick is to find someone whose "moral standards" most closely match your own. That way, the chance for some sort of surprise is minimized. People, being people, will sometimes do things completely off the wall compared to what they have done in the past, but all things being equal, past behavior is the best indicator of future behavior. :)

Hmmm....

A lot of people seem dwelling on the background rather than the question.

Just to make it clear: I said no. I do not intend to change my decision until the situation changes. I am not asking for advice, as I am confident I made th correct choice.

The question at hand is, once again:
Do men and women operate under different moral rules?

Can we please stop the "you did the right/wrong thing" or "this is my advice on what you should do" hijacks.

(Edit: While I do appreciate the attempts at advice, please see the edit in the OP.)
yeah but what are the moral differences in this case?

i dont see a morality issue in this example at all. outside of "its her duty to help her friend any way she can"

so i ask again. what moral issue do YOU see in this example?

yeah but what are the moral differences in this case?

:confused:

Eh? I thoght that was pretty clearly stated in the OP:
I happened to mention this to a few friends, and observed something interesting - most male friends agreed that I'd done the right thing, but most female friends said I should have gone for it.

Males agreed that she was "offlimits", females did not.

It is interesting to note that the (less than rigidly scientific, I expect) study Copiosa Scotia mentioned backed up my observation, but that the advice being thrown around doesn't seem to have done so.

(And the question that that suggests to me: do presented morality/behavioral codes versus actually practiced morality is worthy of it's own thread. :))

:confused:

Eh? I thoght that was pretty clearly stated in the OP:


Males agreed that she was "offlimits", females did not.

It is interesting to note that the (less than rigidly scientific, I expect) study Copiosa Scotia mentioned backed up my observation, but that the advice being thrown around doesn't seem to have done so.

(And the question that that suggests to me: do presented morality/behavioral codes versus actually practiced morality is worthy of it's own thread. :))
well then i guess we DO differ. i dont see it as any way immoral to try to woo a girl away from her current boyfriend. if she was engaged or married it would be different. (although its not too too wrong to try to woo an engaged girl away from her fiance)

as you may have noticed in your life, girlfriends come and go. she is a free agent not a prize to be stolen from another man.

this guy isnt a friend of yours is he?

That "difference in moral standards" is all over the map, IMHO. I've met men and women from both extremes and all points in between. I think the real trick is to find someone whose "moral standards" most closely match your own. That way, the chance for some sort of surprise is minimized. People, being people, will sometimes do things completely off the wall compared to what they have done in the past, but all things being equal, past behavior is the best indicator of future behavior. :)

Exactly

well then i guess we DO differ. i dont see it as any way immoral to try to woo a girl away from her current boyfriend. if she was engaged or married it would be different. (although its not too too wrong to try to woo an engaged girl away from her fiance)

as you may have noticed in your life, girlfriends come and go. she is a free agent not a prize to be stolen from another man.

this guy isnt a friend of yours is he?

I don't know about immoral, but there is an unwritten rule among guys (or at least the guys I know) that you don't steal another guy's girlfriend (though I personally believe it's okay to make exceptions in cases like this). I've also noticed in the past that girls are considerably less reluctant to steal another girl's boyfriend.

well then i guess we DO differ. i dont see it as any way immoral to try to woo a girl away from her current boyfriend. if she was engaged or married it would be different. (although its not too too wrong to try to woo an engaged girl away from her fiance)

as you may have noticed in your life, girlfriends come and go. she is a free agent not a prize to be stolen from another man.

Yep, in some 20 years of dating, I've noticed that.
But honesty is a moral matter, is it not? And that's how I view this situation - I was asked to do something I felt was dishonest.

this guy isnt a friend of yours is he?

Nope. And if I found out a friend was behaving like this guy is, we would no long be friends - and quite possibly worse...

Yep, in some 20 years of dating, I've noticed that.
But honesty is a moral matter, is it not? And that's how I view this situation - I was asked to do something I felt was dishonest.



Nope. And if I found out a friend was behaving like this guy is, we would no long be friends - and quite possibly worse...
well no i dont see that morality has anything to do with it

she is not a possession of another man to be stolen from him. if you meet her and she is interested in you, then why shouldnt she move on from the now-revealed-to-be-unsatisfactory boyfriend she has now? she isnt married to him, she is dating him.

yes it would be immoral to toy with her emotions just to get her to leave her current abusive boy friend. it would be wrong to go around breaking up lots of couples just for the fun of being able to do it. it would be .... "wrong"... to steal your best friends girlfriend but not because SHE isnt a free agent but because you chose her over your best friend.

the attitude that she is not "fair game" seems to me to imply that she is the possession of the man she is dating rather than a free agent who might like a change of pace. she is free to refuse you after all.

I don't know about immoral, but there is an unwritten rule among guys (or at least the guys I know) that you don't steal another guy's girlfriend (though I personally believe it's okay to make exceptions in cases like this). I've also noticed in the past that girls are considerably less reluctant to steal another girl's boyfriend.

Bingo. BTW, that jogged these old brain cells of mine as to a thought I'd had when this came up that's esentially same question, different wording - are women simply more realistically oriented and men more idealistically oriented regarding relationships?

From my (admitedly fragmentary) knowledge of various biological and anthropolgical fields, this may have evolutionary advantages.

well no i dont see that morality has anything to do with it

she is not a possession of another man to be stolen from him. if you meet her and she is intereseted in you, then why shouldnt she move on from the now-revealed-to-be-unsatisfactory boyfriend she has now? she isnt married to him, she is dating him.

yes it would be immoral to toy with her emotions just to get her to leave her current abusive boy friend. it would be wrong to go around breaking up lots of couples just for the fun of being able to do it. it would be .... "wrong"... to steal your best friends girlfriend but not because SHE isnt a free agent but because you chose her over your best friend.

the attitude that she is not "fair game" seems to me to imply that she is the possession of the man she is dating rather than a free agent who might like a change of pace. she is free to refuse you after all.

It has nothing to do with possessiveness. It's a matter of trust and honesty. There is usually an explicit agreement of exclusivness in a romantic relationship. (Or at minimum, an implicit one, unless it has been arranged otherwise.) Dating someone else breaks that agreement, and is thus dishonest.

There's also a matter of continued trust - if she is willing to engage in a breach of trust in her current relationship, there's the possibility of future breaches.

Individuals operate under different moral rules--it has little to do with gender.

Yes, exactly as I was going to answer, it is down to an individual not gender. A person's enviroment, life experiances, how they have been brought up and so on............

The psychologist Carol Gilligan made a career for herself out of this very question.

Her thesis is that men tend to look at morality in terms of rights and responsibilities. Women tend to approach moral questions in terms of social relationships.

She did not argue that either side was "right" in its approach to morality, only that socialization and biology predispose us to view certain questions from certain vantage points.

Often, women and men end up with the same view of right and wrong on any given topic from different ends. On minimum wage a man may believe that people have a right to a reasonable income and that employers have a responsibility not to rip their workers off. A woman would just think that it stinks that people should have to work 3 jobs just to make ends meet.

But there are some topics where we just don't see eye to eye. Take, for example, the Sit-com trope of two guys arguing and then a woman comes along and tells them that they're being immature, and then one of the men will say, "he started it," to the solicited laughter of the audience.

To a woman "he started it" is not a legitimate defense because they see it as a failure of two people to resolve their differences. So a woman will associate that type of thinking with the little boys with whom she is familiar and dismiss that behavior as something that people grow out of, because none of the mothers would consider that to be a defense. To a man's sense of rights and responsibilities a man is defending his right to be heard and trying to force others to live up to their responsiblity to hear him out. After all, in court if you can prove that someone else hit you first, then you have an iron-clad defense for having beaten the crap out of them. You are essentially arguing "he started it" and the authoritative arbiter of right and wrong will agree with you on it, because it is a system designed primarily by men to adhere to a man's sense of right and wrong.

I don't think what you did is wrong, I mean if the relationship is bad, then she should be able to leave without having someone else to cling on, thats just silly... (would you really want to date someone that would just take shit like that anyways O.o?)

So what do you think? Do men and women operate under different moral rules?

Yes, unfourtunately they do, not to mention that various laws support differences in sex's. hopefully society/religion/government will make genders equal... but for now.... *shrugs* guess we just have to fucking deal with it.

Individuals operate under different moral rules--it has little to do with gender.
... I think that is an ideal, in actuality gender has a large effect on moral codes (well, atleast in the redneckretard-ville that I live in...)

This is Japan, we're talking about. No offence, but it isn't known for sexual equality.

Heh. Sad but true.

I find that women act more under the influence of emotion, whereas men act under the influence of logic. Now, I'll admit that that's a very crude distinction and requires some adjusting in the semantics department (as well as a better way to address stupid people, who I don't know that much about because I refrain from contact with them), but empirically and scientifically it would seem correct.

Then again, that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with morals, which are entirely subjective in the first place... unlike priorities et al.

....I think it really matters what type of culture your raised in for example the girls in America are usually more open, active and violent then dudes in Poland ;) , trust me I've been their and all the guys their are mad polite
On the other hand girls raised in lets say Japan or China usually have this I can't talk back type of attitude and you pratically have to force them to debate with you...... and the guys here are perverts lol while if you go to the middle east most guys are perverts too.... they just hide it wayyyy better hehe
I think girls and boys do have different attitudes but it matters which country and culture their raised in... because the guys I've met in Germany for example are really really proud of their country and most of them have this "Our nation was the only nations with the balls to admit they did something wrong attitude" While guys in America often think America is pure and has never done anything bad when in truth we've beat the hell out of the indians

Apparently (this is from a psychology textbook that someone else read and then gave me the gist of) men base their morality on a fixed set of rules, whereas women base theirs on how they feel.

For example, Ross and Rachel in Friends. That whole 'on a break' thing.
From His point of view they had broken up, so were not in a relationship and he was single and free to sleep with anyone he wanted, and had done nothing wrong. From her point of view, although they were on a break they were still emoltionally connected, and what he did hurt her, and was thus wrong.

This seems to be the difference between male and female morality. Women rarely say that 'technically' they havent done anything wrong, and men care about rules more than feelings. in my experience.

And Ross was totally right, obviously.

Apparently (this is from a psychology textbook that someone else read and then gave me the gist of) men base their morality on a fixed set of rules, whereas women base theirs on how they feel.

For example, Ross and Rachel in Friends. That whole 'on a break' thing.
From His point of view they had broken up, so were not in a relationship and he was single and free to sleep with anyone he wanted, and had done nothing wrong. From her point of view, although they were on a break they were still emoltionally connected, and what he did hurt her, and was thus wrong.

This seems to be the difference between male and female morality. Women rarely say that 'technically' they havent done anything wrong, and men care about rules more than feelings. in my experience.

And Ross was totally right, obviously.
yes ross was right. they were broken up and he could do as he pleased. too bad that by doing as he pleased he demonstrated just how uncaring and unconnected he was. so while he was right, he lost big time.

rachel wasnt "wrong" in being hurt. emotions have their own imperative. she was "right" in breaking it off totally with him. anyone who could date someone else so easily wasnt worth trying to get back with.

and then it dragged on to ever more stupid plot points.

Apparently (this is from a psychology textbook that someone else read and then gave me the gist of) men base their morality on a fixed set of rules, whereas women base theirs on how they feel.

For example, Ross and Rachel in Friends. That whole 'on a break' thing.
From His point of view they had broken up, so were not in a relationship and he was single and free to sleep with anyone he wanted, and had done nothing wrong. From her point of view, although they were on a break they were still emoltionally connected, and what he did hurt her, and was thus wrong.

This seems to be the difference between male and female morality. Women rarely say that 'technically' they havent done anything wrong, and men care about rules more than feelings. in my experience.

And Ross was totally right, obviously.

Which goes along with what I said above.

He feels he had the right to sleep with whoever he wanted, and no longer had the responsibility to be faithful to Rachel. She felt that a relationship still existed and had to be honored for some indeterminate time after the official break-up.

I also read somewhere that a man's inability to multi-task results in his emotions being subserviant to his logic, because when he's trying to solve problems, even problems of an emotional nature, his ability to process emotions is diminished. This makes it impossible for him to soothe his wifes feelings in a fight, because he's trying to solve the problem "we're having a fight" and the more he tries to solve that problem the more his wife thinks "he's so emotionally unattached, doesn't he see that I'm hurting here?" It's like trying to put out a fire by pouring liquids on it, but the only liquids availiable are gasoline and vodka.

It's not that men don't care about feelings, it's just that the very act of trying to solve an emotional problem for a man often solves it. It's like rebooting a computer that runs on windows. A woman on the other hand is fully able to keep running her emotions while also trying to fix problems. To her, you can't fix an emotion, you just have to let it run its course. Of course, if you tell a woman that her feelings are just the mental equivilant of the flu, you've got a whole new problem.

(edit: please note the difference between the background explanation of the subject and the actual question. This is not a request for advice on my personal affairs, but an attempt to discuss an observation that arose from those affairs. Thank you.)

Background (warning - soap operaesque): My best friend's girlfriend has put me in an interesting spot in which I am observing a difference of opinion from various male and female friends. The short version is that her friend is in an abusive relationship. She set me up on a quasi-blind date (can you go out tomorrow, BTW I'm bringing a friend) with this woman in hopes that we'd hit it off and she'd leave him for me. But she didn't bother to mention this to me until after I'd taken the bait and was interested (the freind is "my type"). When I found out she was already in a relationship, I said no way, not until she breaks off with her boyfriend.

I happened to mention this to a few friends, and observed something interesting - most male friends agreed that I'd done the right thing, but most female friends said I should have gone for it.

So what do you think? Do men and women operate under different moral rules?

It could be a matter of empathy. The men would find it easier to identify with the boyfriend (as they are both male) and the idea of having a girlfriend stolen from them while the women would find it easier to identify with the abused girlfriend and the idea of being rescued from an abusive relationship.

Of course I'm no sociologist so I'm sure other people can come up with better explanations.