NationStates Jolt Archive

Both Northwest and Delta airlines are teetering on the brink of financial disaster. Recent increases in fuel prices have driven them closer to the brink. The airlines are asking the unions for concessions so they can stay in business and keep the union members employed. Will the unions drive the final stake into the heart of the airlines and cost thousands of union members their jobs.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050820/bs_afp/usairtransportnorthwest_050820062843

Aviation fuel is dirt-cheap, considering it is not taxed. Boo-hoo, it has become a bit more expensive. It's the overcapacity that's killing them. Internal flights flying half-empty - poor planning on the management's part.

No--the unions won't bankrupt the airlines. Shitty management and poor business decisions for the last thirty years will bankrupt them, just like they've been doing ever since deregulation started in the 70s.

Funny--management always argues that it's the union workers who need to take paycuts to keep the airlines flying, but management never seems to give up any of their bonuses or take paycuts. Wonder why that is? :rolleyes:

No--the unions won't bankrupt the airlines. Shitty management and poor business decisions for the last thirty years will bankrupt them, just like they've been doing ever since deregulation started in the 70s.

Funny--management always argues that it's the union workers who need to take paycuts to keep the airlines flying, but management never seems to give up any of their bonuses or take paycuts. Wonder why that is? :rolleyes:

too true

Funny--management always argues that it's the union workers who need to take paycuts to keep the airlines flying, but management never seems to give up any of their bonuses or take paycuts. Wonder why that is? :rolleyes:
Because they are pricks. An honorable man (or woman) would take a pay cut right along with his/her employees if business is suffering.
It’s what my grandfather does for his chain of hair salons, and he makes his management take a pay cut as well. His stylists ultimately end up getting paid more compared to how well business is doing. Guess whitch hair salons are flooded with applicants when they need to fill a position? Of course, he doesn’t make them pay taxes on their tips, and stood up to the IRS for them more than once. That might have something to do with it too.

Aviation fuel is taxed, even at the state level, and it is not cheap. The average price in the US is currently over $3.00 a gallon.

fuel prices http://www.airnav.com/fuel/report.html

info on aviation fuel tax http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22aviation+fuel+tax%22&btnG=Google+Search

Wonder why that is? :rolleyes:
Part and parcel of demonizing the collective bargaining process. C'mon, Nazz.

Aviation fuel is taxed, even at the state level, and it is not cheap. The average price in the US is currently over $3.00 a gallon.

fuel prices http://www.airnav.com/fuel/report.html

info on aviation fuel tax http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22aviation+fuel+tax%22&btnG=Google+Search
Meh, you're telling me the US, the most powerful industrial economy on the planet, can't afford to pay the pathetic tax rates they enjoy? :rolleyes:

Europe's workers enjoy so many benefits in comparison, not to mention state healthcare, etc, and has massive taxes on everything, and has been "on the verge of collapse" forever. Come on. You can't blame your industries' failures on the workers refusing to let go of a few cents an hour.

The unions aren't bankrupting the airlines, bloated management is. My buddy who works for US airways says that the workers there took pay cuts in the range of 20% to make the company more profitable, but the management, which is the most bloated in the airline industry only took a net 1% cut. Plus management is expendable. They don't need that many people pushing paper. The people who are really necessary to the functioning of the airline are the pilots, mechanics, baggage handlers, and flight attendants.

Aviation fuel is taxed, even at the state level, and it is not cheap. The average price in the US is currently over $3.00 a gallon.

fuel prices http://www.airnav.com/fuel/report.html

info on aviation fuel tax http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22aviation+fuel+tax%22&btnG=Google+Search

3 bucks a gallon?

...Wow almost as much as gas for my car!

Part and parcel of demonizing the collective bargaining process. C'mon, Nazz.
Oh, I know. It's part of the divide and conquer strategy, the move back toward feudalism, only instead of nobility, we'll have management, and instead of serfs, we'll have labor.

3 bucks a gallon?

...Wow almost as much as gas for my car!
Soooo, you’re jealous or what? :p

Soooo, you’re jealous or what? :p

Oh nyah!

The price of gas is rising higher each day, and the management is bitching about 3 bucks a gallon for their huge-ass 747s.

Boo...fuckity...hoo...

3 bucks a gallon?

...Wow almost as much as gas for my car! <_<

I'll bet you car gets a lot better gas mileage than a Boeing 737 too. :D

I'll bet you car gets a lot better gas mileage than a Boeing 737 too. :D

Yeah, because I shopped smart and bought a car with good mileage. Unlike some corporations.

Yeah, because I shopped smart and bought a car with good mileage. Unlike some corporations.
Do they make hybrid Jetliners? Because that would be fricken sweet. :D

Do they make hybrid Jetliners? Because that would be fricken sweet. :D
They're going to have to come up with something eventually, unless we want to return to the days of the zeppelin.

They're going to have to come up with something eventually, unless we want to return to the days of the zeppelin.
That could be made very economical, and safe, provided people don't paint the fabric with thermite, like the Germans did. :rolleyes:

That could be made very economical, and safe, provided people don't paint the fabric with thermite, like the Germans did. :rolleyes:
Germans ruin everything. :D

That could be made very economical, and safe, provided people don't paint the fabric with thermite, like the Germans did. :rolleyes:
Yeah--just not as efficient or fast. And to be quite frank, it would worry me that we would continue to regress in terms of air travel technology. Think for a moment--in the past, with pretty much every other travel technology, being faster has always been the goal, and yet, since the original SST passenger plane, we've stopped progressing along those lines. We don't even have one available anymore, and as far as I know, no real plans to make another one. We've made planes bigger and more fuel-efficient, but we haven't really done much to make them faster.

Fuck that. Lets fire a few bureacrats and ask the managers to cut back to a working wage. Maybe then thye will be able to stay in business

Now more than ever we need repulsorlift and anti-grav technology. Give me speeders!

Fuck that. Lets fire a few bureacrats and ask the managers to cut back to a working wage. Maybe then thye will be able to stay in business

No, then all of the management will leave for companies where they will be paid better, and the entire management structure will collapse. That will accelerate bankruptcy faster than any union possibly could.

No, then all of the management will leave for companies where they will be paid better, and the entire management structure will collapse. That will accelerate bankruptcy faster than any union possibly could.
Considering the bangup job management for most of these airlines has been doing thus far, I don't see how them leaving would do all that much damage. Besides, you're assuming that these people would be able to find jobs elsewhere in the industry, and that's by no means a given.

Yeah--just not as efficient or fast. And to be quite frank, it would worry me that we would continue to regress in terms of air travel technology. Think for a moment--in the past, with pretty much every other travel technology, being faster has always been the goal, and yet, since the original SST passenger plane, we've stopped progressing along those lines. We don't even have one available anymore, and as far as I know, no real plans to make another one. We've made planes bigger and more fuel-efficient, but we haven't really done much to make them faster.

Problem is, Concorde was a fuel hog. Afterburners don't come cheap, not to mention that incident with the Russian version (what prat wants an SST doing low-speed manoeuvres anyway?) and ever since 73 or so fuel has been expensive (relatively speaking anyway...)

Considering the bangup job management for most of these airlines has been doing thus far, I don't see how them leaving would do all that much damage. Besides, you're assuming that these people would be able to find jobs elsewhere in the industry, and that's by no means a given.

They probably would find new jobs because not all airlines are suffering, and the ones doing well need talented people to run them. Some are doing very well; the problem is, there is too much capacity and not enough demand in the airline industry. Having some of these big airlines go under would improve the industry and maintain capacity while lowering demand for oil and jet fuel.

No, then all of the management will leave for companies where they will be paid better, and the entire management structure will collapse. That will accelerate bankruptcy faster than any union possibly could.

So we should expect the workers who already survive on a pittance get fucked over and take it, but not management who are paid much higher?

So we should expect the workers who already survive on a pittance get fucked over and take it, but not management who are paid much higher?

No, everyone should take pay cuts (like Steve Jobs did with Apple during the tech downturn) and unnecessary personnel should be laid off on whatever level they exist.

I've seen plenty of businesses go to the wall...the reason they do is because they are crap at their job. Simple.

In Europe we have airlines which can sell tickets at 1p plus taxes...and still make shit loads of money. They have adapted to the market, or provide a product which is desired at a cost which is acceptable to make the company profitable.

Delta are just doing a shitty job and that is the managements fault.

Maybe the airlines should go under. That opens up the market to new players who are actually serious about doing a decent job of things...

Funny--management always argues that it's the union workers who need to take paycuts to keep the airlines flying, but management never seems to give up any of their bonuses or take paycuts. Wonder why that is? :rolleyes:
Because the collective payroll of the low level workers dwarfs the collective payroll of upper management by several orders of magnitude. Now if I was running the business I would take a paycut too but that doesn't change the fact that a paycut among the lower ranks will free up a hell of a lot more cash than a paycut in the upper ranks.

I think air travel by zeppelin, or some other form of lighter-than-air craft, would be marvellous for getting around. Provided of course the travel wasn't time-sensitive... but due to telepresence, the need for time-sensitive travel should not be as pronounced.

Some people will forever be in a hurry to get somewhere, of course.

Because the collective payroll of the low level workers dwarfs the collective payroll of upper management by several orders of magnitude. Now if I was running the business I would take a paycut too but that doesn't change the fact that a paycut among the lower ranks will free up a hell of a lot more cash than a paycut in the upper ranks.
You're giving management way too much credit, Ravenshrike. This isn't about freeing up cash--this is about busting the unions and worrying more about their share prices and stock options than about the long-term health of the company.

I think air travel by zeppelin, or some other form of lighter-than-air craft, would be marvellous for getting around. Provided of course the travel wasn't time-sensitive... but due to telepresence, the need for time-sensitive travel should not be as pronounced.

Some people will forever be in a hurry to get somewhere, of course.
I agree, Dobbsworld. I think trans-oceanic zeppelin travel should make a comeback. They'd be kind of like 'cruise-ships-of-the-sky' sorts of things, slow luxury travel from place to place.

Heck, they could carry smaller aircraft, so if passengers wanted to hop off to go visit that tropical island down there, they could do so. :)

They're going to have to come up with something eventually, unless we want to return to the days of the zeppelin.

Cool but a bit slow. We could also build nuclear powered luxury liners.

They probably would find new jobs because not all airlines are suffering, and the ones doing well need talented people to run them. Some are doing very well; the problem is, there is too much capacity and not enough demand in the airline industry. Having some of these big airlines go under would improve the industry and maintain capacity while lowering demand for oil and jet fuel.

Most of the airlines that are doing well are the regional carriers. Very few national and international airlines are do well at all. American, Northwest, and Delta are all in serious trouble.

So we should expect the workers who already survive on a pittance get fucked over and take it, but not management who are paid much higher?

I don't call $22.00 to $38.00 per hour a pittance. I don't know what the salary is at Northwest, but that's what mechanics at American make.

I've seen plenty of businesses go to the wall...the reason they do is because they are crap at their job. Simple.

In Europe we have airlines which can sell tickets at 1p plus taxes...and still make shit loads of money. They have adapted to the market, or provide a product which is desired at a cost which is acceptable to make the company profitable.

Delta are just doing a shitty job and that is the managements fault.

Are any of the Europen airlines subsidised by the government? None of them in the US are.

You're giving management way too much credit, Ravenshrike. This isn't about freeing up cash--this is about busting the unions and worrying more about their share prices and stock options than about the long-term health of the company.

But if the health of the company goes in the toilt, so do their share prices. If they want their stock to grow and pay good dividends thus increasing their wealth, they must care about the long term health of the company.

bump

Both Northwest and Delta airlines are teetering on the brink of financial disaster. Recent increases in fuel prices have driven them closer to the brink. The airlines are asking the unions for concessions so they can stay in business and keep the union members employed. Will the unions drive the final stake into the heart of the airlines and cost thousands of union members their jobs.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050820/bs_afp/usairtransportnorthwest_050820062843

Wow, those poor poor airlines. Feck um, welcome to capitalism--those mechanics will get jobs at the airlines that replace the folded ones--the white collars will move on--or move down the ladder of success(I hope with my heart of hearts) pilots can always find work.

What will really happen is a Bankruptcy filing and then the American tax payer will again bail the airlines who instead of concede that the living wage the workers want is justified and try to reach compromise try and hoard profits for inflated corporate expenditures.

And yes I am A Teamster--Feck North Western.

But if the health of the company goes in the toilt, so do their share prices. If they want their stock to grow and pay good dividends thus increasing their wealth, they must care about the long term health of the company.
That's not the case at all, especially for the top layers of management. Their salaries and options are based on quarterly profits in lots of cases, and in yearly performance in others. It's real easy to make the stock jump at the right time when it comes to calculating bonuses, especially when you're in control. And the people at the very top are, these days anyway, not looking at being around for the rest of their careers. They come in for a couple of years, make their piles, their multi-million dollar bonuses, and jet.

And stockholders, especially institutional ones, aren't particularly loyal either. They're looking for high rates of return quickly, and they'll dump the stock if they can't get it. High short term returns are not generally conducive to long term success. It generally means that shortcuts are being taken, shortcuts that will come back to bite the business in the ass eventually. Thing is, by the time eventually comes around, the people who made the decisions are long gone, and the people left holding the bag are the working people.

If there is any doubt that unions can destroy an industry, look at the steel industry in the US.

One of the largest problems in american industry is that management is filled with brown nosing yes men who have no idea what it make what ever industry its in run, and are to stupid or arrogant to find out.

what will bankrupt the airlines will be the amount of money they are paying to their corrupt and incompatent managers and shareholders (the ones who own 50% of the company rather then the old ladies who own 1 share) rather then the unionists who are the ones making all the money for the airline anyway

so the unionists could bankrupt them but only if they all decide to leave

There are so many problems with industries because of greedy coroprate bosses and corrupt union kingpins. I once read a news article about a union attacking nonunion members all because a company hired them(nonunion). The nonunion workers get all the benefits of the union workers without the union prices and corrupt kingpins. Unions used to be about the worker getting what he or she deserved. They used to be against corruption. What happened?

Are any of the Europen airlines subsidised by the government? None of them in the US are.

Not the ones who charge 1p a ticket...there was a case o it happening but the airline was forced to give back the money.

I think air travel by zeppelin, or some other form of lighter-than-air craft, would be marvellous for getting around. Provided of course the travel wasn't time-sensitive... but due to telepresence, the need for time-sensitive travel should not be as pronounced.

Some people will forever be in a hurry to get somewhere, of course.
Yeah, bring back zeppelins. Far cooler than any noisy airliner, and you'd get more space. Swimmingpool in the sky, anyone? With a glass floor!!
But seriously, they could coat the upper surface with those new high efficiency solar cells, and once they get above the clouds, they'd never stop.
And if anyone's in a real hurry to get anywhere they can damn well walk ;)

Both Northwest and Delta airlines are teetering on the brink of financial disaster. Recent increases in fuel prices have driven them closer to the brink. The airlines are asking the unions for concessions so they can stay in business and keep the union members employed. Will the unions drive the final stake into the heart of the airlines and cost thousands of union members their jobs.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050820/bs_afp/usairtransportnorthwest_050820062843

Boo-fucking-hoo. You obviously don't care about the workers, so why should I give a damn about your opinion?

In less harsh terms: Workers are more important than profits. Get this into your head for a change.

I do believe that unions can cause major damages to industries. (such as the automobile industries) However, I don't think airlines are one of those cases.

If a union happens to cause "major damage" to a certain industry, then said industry deserves it. It's their fault for not treating their workers fairly.

It's funny these airlines.

Make good profit -> announce staff cuts because they want make out money by reducing staff costs
Make loss -> announce staff cuts because they can't afford to "overstaff" now
Make no money -> announce staff cuts because they want make out money by reducing staff costs

Boo-fucking-hoo. You obviously don't care about the workers, so why should I give a damn about your opinion?

In less harsh terms: Workers are more important than profits. Get this into your head for a change.

First of all, I never said that I don't care about the workers. Secondly, if the airlines are forced to shut down, those workers will be out of work.

These airlines won't last much longer. Oil prices ain't going down significantly any time soon...

These airlines won't last much longer. Oil prices ain't going down significantly any time soon...

They would if we just built more refineries. That's the only thing keeping prices up.

They would if we just built more refineries. That's the only thing keeping prices up.

Yes, we defiantly need new refineries. Problem is no one wants them in their back yard. I like President Bush's idea of building them on closed military installations. We also need to start drilling for our own oil in Anwar and off the coast of California and Florida.

If a union happens to cause "major damage" to a certain industry, then said industry deserves it. It's their fault for not treating their workers fairly.

What happens when an industry tries to modernise and the union blocks the attempt becuase it will get rid of some low paying or hazzardous jobs, and the people in those jobs don't want to retrain?

That really isn't relivant in this thread, the whole problem is caused by piss poor management all around.

What happens when an industry tries to modernise and the union blocks the attempt becuase it will get rid of some low paying or hazzardous jobs, and the people in those jobs don't want to retrain?

This is what happened in the coal mining industry in the US. The unions caused the wages to go so high it was cheaper for the company to invest in new technology and eliminate the jobs of a lot of the miners.

This is what happened in the coal mining industry in the US. The unions caused the wages to go so high it was cheaper for the company to invest in new technology and eliminate the jobs of a lot of the miners.

The company that I work for is one of the most automated in our industry in the world. Instead of firing people, we are offering to retrain people whose jobs would be replaced by automation. This has allowed us to drasticly increase our output for the same head count.

Automation creates high paying jobs becuase it requires smart and skilled workers to maintain and operate it. It also limits medical liabilites, because a machine can't sue for having a bad back.

Where the miners given the chance to reatrain and learn the new mechines?

Yes, we defiantly need new refineries. Problem is no one wants them in their back yard. I like President Bush's idea of building them on closed military installations. We also need to start drilling for our own oil in Anwar and off the coast of California and Florida.
The little you would gain in oil from those three places would be more than offset by the utter destruction of the southern California and Florida tourist industry. Especially in Florida. The opposition down here for drilling off both coasts is across the board, bi-partisan. It's about the only thing Florida Republicans and Democrats agree on.