NationStates Jolt Archive

I am posting ot apologize, again, for my behavior in the forum, "Would you rather have guranteed casual sex with a person or a happy marriage?" You should note that there were many misunderstandings when I read your posts, for example, when someone commented on "Nazzis" morals, I instictively thought of a Nazzi, and thus my response. Note that I was very irritated at the time, and it was late (midnight where I live) The following is my apology, which was previously posted, slightly changed.

I am sorry if I offended anyone by what I said. I was getting angry, and many of your comments were hurtfull to me, simply because of how many wrong ideas people believed in, and how horid the state of their minds appeared (notice italics) to me to be. Nevertheless, I will not take back what I have said. What I said on that forum is true. I truely wish you could understand what I was trying to explain, but I clearly found that you would not, and just because I am only 15 doesn't mean I don't know some things that many adults do not. People have different experiences in their lives and come to know different things.

I am sorry for getting so angry, and if I have insulted anyone, I apologize. Whether something is true or not does not justify it being said if it could be hurtful, although I admit my tact may have been a bit low at the time, and I was not aware I would offend anyone so much. I recognize that. (although you may not believe what I have said, I know it is true). I never meant to call anyone an animal. I merely stated that anyone who does not have morals (meaning, anyone who does not have a concience anymore, who has done enough for it to be blotted out, and no longer knows the difference between right and wrong) is like an animal, because at that point, they would just give into their animalistic (and mind you, humans are be nature, literally an animal, a mammal to be more precise) behaviors. This is true, and I will not take it back, but I am sorry that I have offended you.

I can only hope that you will learn the meaning of what morals are, and that you will try to do what is right, not what is easy, fun, or convieniant, for it will in the end make you happy. I know it has for me. It can for you to. You may state this is a belief. But I ask you this, what truely is a fact? What is truth? Truth is things as they are. You may define it as something that can be proved. But what is proof? Proof is adequite evidence to cause someone to believe something. What is evidence? I suppose you have to decide that. Many think it is what you see. But even your eyes can decieve you, and people can choose not to accept or believe something that is "proved".

I leave these words with you, in hopes that you will finally understand. My hopes may seem to be in vain, but that does not mean I will give them up. I rest my case. Do with my words what you will, whether you twist them, break them, say I have no evidence, claim that I have no experience. You yourselves do not know how much experience i have had. I have had sufficient evidence for myself. Now you must decide if it is enough for you, and please, accept my apologies on any offence I may have given. You may even find things i have said here offensive. I don't know why you find what I have said so offensive, but I conclude that is most likely because you do not want to change your beliefs, and I wish you would, but I cannot change what you believe, and I am sorry if I offend you. I guess it may be best to not discuss religion, or it is obvious that some offence will be made. :(

And, Nazzis, I didn't mean to attack you personally. Read the top for clarification on that. Best wishes to all of you. Please forgive me.

I know that my comments will be terribly bashed, but oh well. I must make my apology clear.

What are Nazzis?

What are Nazzis?

Fadolph Mitlers group of people, they were in Syria I believe.


While the apology is nice and all, this isn't really an apology. "I'm sorry I said this, BUT, I'm still right". You can't apologize to somebody, but throw excuses and "but"s out to excuse your behavior. An apology asks for a pardon, but also accepts what you said was wrong and rude. And while it should offer an explanation, you are just offering an excuse.

Anywhoo....

Is Nazzi seriously a misspelling or is there a group of people that calls themselves that (might be Italian for all I know)? I think you mean Iran ("Land of the Aryans"), and not Syria.

I didn't read the post you are apologizing for, but I have to agree that this is not an apology. It seems more an attempt to restate whatever your case is, but to do it in such a way that makes you look nicer.

If you really want to apologize, you might want to try it again, without the "but I was right" attached.

Valori:

He is only a teenager and at least he is making an effort to mend the fences that he helped mow over.....remember, it takes TWO or more to argue, so he was not the only one responsible in tearing down those fences.....please find it in your heart to remember what it was like to be a teenager...I think that he is just trying to find a way to communicate his views. I posted the comments below to the people that were involved in this whole thing and I think maybe you should read it too:

"I have been reading these posts for awhile now...and I would just like to say a few things. The person that you are all giving a hard time is only 16....I applaud him for still having high ideals at his age....do I think that he has the right to pass judgement? No, no one does....but I also don't think that was his intention....I think that he was just trying to state how he feels about premarital sex and how Christianity feels about premarital sex. He is only 16 and he is still at an age where most people are trying to figure out how to get their point across without passing judgement on others. I ask you to please give the guy a break...I'm sure that all of you remember what it was like to be young. And I think that he is right....just because you may be older than him, doesn't mean that he has no wisdom to offer you. I am a grade 9 youth group leader and sometimes I feel that they teach me more than I could ever teach them. Maybe instead of jumping on what he has to say, you could guide him gently and look for the positives in what he has to say. Just a thought. And just for the record, I am almost 27...I have been happily married for 6 years....I do believe that sex is a wonderful and beautiful gift....I am Christian...and I also believe that premarital sex is not how God intended us to use the gift of sex....but don't think for one moment that I am asking you to believe the same things that I do."

"This is just a thought...and feel free to disagree...but maybe as the older, wiser, more mature person, you should've just told him that you wish to agree to disagree...Lead him into maturity by example...and SHOW him what accepting another's views is all about. If you had approached his comments that way, then he may have been more open to what you had to say....and then if he decided to still remain closed on the issue, you would at least have the satisfaction of knowing that you tried to show him by being a good example.....but these are just my thoughts on the matter."

Give the kid a break. He made a mistake, and even though I didn't read very much of what he posted I'd say he is right. Unfortunately, right about the wrong thing. Just like people were right in thinking the Earth was flat until the realised otherwise.

I'm sure if you guys ease up a bit he'll end up being a fine NSer in time.

Rotovia's got ya back kid. ;)

"Rotovia: Kicking NS arse since 2003!"

This was not an apology for his opinion.
This was an apology for offence that he may have inadvertently given.

It sounds to me like he/she's sorry if he/she offended someone, and is apologizing that. It also sounds like he/she recognizes that he/she said some things in a way that he/she doesn't really agree with, and wants to apologize for giving a bad impression.

Do you need to apologize to him/her for your silly opinions if they offended him/her?

If you believe that there is no God do you need to apologize to the Pope, and recant your opinion?

No one should say that they are wrong when they believe they are right. Not even to soothe someone else's feelings.

No one should have to apologize for their opinion.

Is Nazzi seriously a misspelling or is there a group of people that calls themselves that (might be Italian for all I know)? I think you mean Iran ("Land of the Aryans"), and not Syria.

lol, I was being stupid. :p

lol, I was being stupid. :pWhich still doesn't answer my original question.

Laerod:

"Nazzi" is the name of one of the posters that was a part of the original disscussion. I hope that this helps!! :)

Which still doesn't answer my original question.

No, as far as I have heard, there is no "Nazzi" party in Syria, Iran, or any other part of the world.

Laerod:

"Nazzi" is the name of one of the posters that was a part of the original disscussion. I hope that this helps!! :)Excellent. Curse you Valori! May your toenails rot from your toes! *shakes fist in an angry, yet still very comical manner*

It's "The Nazz", Woodsprite.

And to the original poster, as has been previously mentioned, this "apology" does read much like a "I'm sorry, but I'm still right" sort of thing. Apologizing, and then seeming to imply that people with morals different to yours, or a subjective set, are incorrect in their beliefs (This is my interpretation of what the original poster stated, and may not be correct) completely negates anything said prior.

Lord-General Drache:

So, what do you want him to do? Tell you that he takes back his OPINION on something?....He apologised for what he was sorry for....he was sorry for how he came across in the other thread, not for his opinion. I am Christian and I don't ever intend on apologising to anyone for my beliefs...do you intend to apologise to anyone for what you believe in when they think that you are wrong? It seems that some people want him to say, "I'm sorry, you were right, now I totally see the error of my ways and believe that sex before marriage is the way to go!!"...I'm sorry, but I wouldn't expect someone who believes that there is nothing wrong with premarital sex to change their mind after talking with me about the Bible, so why would you guys expect him to change his beliefs?

It's "The Nazz", Woodsprite.

And to the original poster, as has been previously mentioned, this "apology" does read much like a "I'm sorry, but I'm still right" sort of thing. Apologizing, and then seeming to imply that people with morals different to yours, or a subjective set, are incorrect in their beliefs (This is my interpretation of what the original poster stated, and may not be correct) completely negates anything said prior.Jeez. In that case that post could be interpreted as majorly offensive because of the things it implies... "Nazzis don't feel offended"?

Lord-General Drache:

I'm sorry for the mis-typing of the name "The Nazz"...I was just going by the name that Arathen provided in his apology.

I hate Illinois Nazzis.

~FLG

Lord-General Drache:

I do think that it was just an error on his part. He is just a TEENAGER...give the poor guy a break. I also don't think that he intended on hurting anyone.

Lord-General Drache:

I do think that it was just an error on his part. He is just a TEENAGER...give the poor guy a break. I also don't think that he intended on hurting anyone.I dunno. Some things just aren't funny. Specially when he apologizes to real "Nazzis"...

Lord-General Drache:

So, what do you want him to do? Tell you that he takes back his OPINION on something?....He apologised for what he was sorry for....he was sorry for how he came across in the other thread, not for his opinion. I am Christian and I don't ever intend on apologising to anyone for my beliefs...do you intend to apologise to anyone for what you believe in when they think that you are wrong? It seems that some people want him to say, "I'm sorry, you were right, now I totally see the error of my ways and believe that sex before marriage is the way to go!!"...I'm sorry, but I wouldn't expect someone who believes that there is nothing wrong with premarital sex to change their mind after talking with me about the Bible, so why would you guys expect him to change his beliefs?
Jeez. In that case that post could be interpreted as majorly offensive because of the things it implies... "Nazzis don't feel offended"?

Yeah, but I took the high road and shoved aside my skepticism and hoped it was a simple error.

Woodsprites, I don't want anyone to apologies for their beliefs, ever. What negates his apology, to me, is this line:

"I can only hope that you will learn the meaning of what morals are, and that you will try to do what is right, not what is easy, fun, or convieniant, for it will in the end make you happy."

It comes across, to me, as "I hope you come to have the same morals as I do", which would mean other sets would be improper, false, etc. It may be I'm reading too much into this, I do admit.

As to getting The Nazz's name wrong, Woodsprites, it's fine. I wasn't trying to be hostile, or anything, just simply correction some accidental misinformation.

Lord-General Drache:

I have a question for you...you have a belief system regarding God, religion, and so forth, right?....your beliefs may even be that you don't believe in anything....okay, so be it...but if YOU believe something to be right, then by default, you think that others who don't believe the same thing are wrong...it doesn't have to be stated...it is just that way. If you believe that sex before marriage is fine, and I don't, then you would think that my opinion is wrong according to your belief structure....If someone doesn't believe that there is a God, for instance, then how could that someone believe that a person who does believe in God is right?....one can't have it both ways.

Lord-General Drache:

I have a question for you...you have a belief system regarding God, religion, and so forth, right?....your beliefs may even be that you don't believe in anything....okay, so be it...but if YOU believe something to be right, then by default, you think that others who don't believe the same thing are wrong...it doesn't have to be stated...it is just that way. If you believe that sex before marriage is fine, and I don't, then you would think that my opinion is wrong according to your belief structure....If someone doesn't believe that there is a God, for instance, then how could that someone believe that a person who does believe in God is right?....one can't have it both ways.

I may disagree with your opinion or perhaps others who do not share the same religious/philosophical views as myself, Woodsprite, but I cannot say it is "wrong". Please understand that. I may believe I am right, but I cannot be absolutely, 100% certain. I honestly think no one truly can, at least not until we die. I don't consider any one belief system more "right" or "wrong" than any other. I may disagree with one, or agree, to varying degrees, but I won't say "This is wrong, and they should not believe it". It's about acceptance that there're a wide variety of theories about the hows and whys of the universe, and that some, one, or none may be right..or not.

Wait a second...

You told me that if I were in love with someone I should marry them because it's 'simple and fun.'

And now you're telling me not to have casual sex with someone because while it may be 'fun' it's won't make me happy?

I'm confused... But oh well.

Oh and next time, count to 5 or something before replying and make sure your replies have some sort of backing-up that does not include the bible or any other religious thingymabobbers. You need un-biased proof.

Lord-General Drache:

Like I said, he is a teenager....and MOST teenagers think that they are RIGHT about everything....and if you didn't feel that way as a teenager, then I applaud you....so he worded what he wanted to say poorly....but I don't think that his intentions were to judge anyone...I think that he was truly trying to make amends with everyone, but also wanted everyone to know that he was only apologising for HOW he came across....I remember being a teenager and how black and white the world was to me at the time...I wouldn't have worded it that way, myself...but I am also 26 and have a few more experiences to pull from than he does...I just think that if everyone would've SHOWN him through THEIR actions and words what it means to have a conversation free of judgement, then he might've been open to what everyone was saying to him. I understand that you accept that others can have their opinions about their beliefs...I feel the very same way...but I think that is more "agreeing to disagree"...you can't honestly tell me that if I said that I believe something that you don't (I don't know you, otherwise I'd use an example that I know that we disagree on, but think of something that we probably disagree on), that in your heart, mind and soul, you wouldn't think that I am wrong. You would believe that you are right, and if my beliefs are totally opposite to yours (even if you don't TELL me that I am wrong) then you would still THINK that they are wrong by default....like I said if you don't believe in God, then how can you think that someone who believes in God is right....and if you don't think that they are right, then they are wrong. At the very heart of a disagreement is always two people that think the other person is wrong.

I want to apologize, too. I have wanted to say I'm sorry for a long time, but didn't want to be an attention-whore and start a whole new thread on it. Since it's already here, I'll just slide my mea culpa discreetly into this thread.

Like, Arathen, I think all you general forum people are a bunch of rutting animals. You are fornicatious beasts reveling in your orgasmic filth. You have chosen to luxuriously swim in the warm waters of sins of the flesh. You've got to get out of this trap, before this decadence saps your wills. You've got to be strong and try to hang on, or else your mind may well snap and your life will be lived for the thrills.

So what I'm saying is... I'm sorry I hold you all in such low regard. My bad.






Don't dream it, be it!

Lord-General Drache:

Like I said, he is a teenager....and MOST teenagers think that they are RIGHT about everything....and if you didn't feel that way as a teenager, then I applaud you....so he worded what he wanted to say poorly....but I don't think that his intentions were to judge anyone...I think that he was truly trying to make amends with everyone, but also wanted everyone to know that he was only apologising for HOW he came across....I remember being a teenager and how black and white the world was to me at the time...I wouldn't have worded it that way, myself...but I am also 26 and have a few more experiences to pull from than he does...I just think that if everyone would've SHOWN him through THEIR actions and words what it means to have a conversation free of judgement, then he might've been open to what everyone was saying to him. I understand that you accept that others can have their opinions about their beliefs...I feel the very same way...but I think that is more "agreeing to disagree"...you can't honestly tell me that if I said that I believe something that you don't (I don't know you, otherwise I'd use an example that I know that we disagree on, but think of something that we probably disagree on), that in your heart, mind and soul, you wouldn't think that I am wrong. You would believe that you are right, and if my beliefs are totally opposite to yours (even if you don't TELL me that I am wrong) then you would still THINK that they are wrong by default....like I said if you don't believe in God, then how can you think that someone who believes in God is right....and if you don't think that they are right, then they are wrong. At the very heart of a disagreement is always two people that think the other person is wrong.
Believe it or not, I'm still a teenager, for a year more, at any rate. And I did, I will admit, have less tolerance for other religious beliefs, but that changed once I hit about 14 or 15. I do understand your point.

The problem with forums, or at least NS, is that people are held to a higher standard here, I'd think. At the same time, people can be more quick to judge here, perhaps because of that higher standard.

As I said, I may disagree with you, but I'd certaintly do my best to view your ideas as patently "wrong". I know that may seem unbelievable to you, but I've always made it a point to at least try to accept other people's beliefs, regardless of my own. Yes, disagreements are about beliefs in right or wrong, but I think debates blur the line to "This is what I feel, based on the facts as I have seen them, and the opinions I have drawn from my experiences", and presenting them in as logical a manner as possible. I try to view religious beliefs and such in that manner, that people have come to these beliefs (at least, hopefully), due to their own personal exploration of their belief system, and hopefully others as well as a comparison, and drawn their own conclusions.

Lord-General Drache:

Even though you may not SAY to someone, "you are wrong", doesn't mean that your heart and what you THINK says the same thing. If you don't have the same opinion as someone, then in your heart and mind you would think them to be wrong (hence the difference of opinion)....but by not STATING that you think that they are wrong and still being able to share what you believe, you are merely agreeing to disagree on that issue and STILL showing RESPECT for that person's beliefs. See what I mean? The only thing that this boy did any differently from anyone else is that he ACTUALLY stated that he thinks that they are wrong...I think THAT is the issue here, not that he THINKS that the other people are wrong....but that he was brash enough to state it. And I think that mistake was made by him largely because he is young and still doesn't know how to share his beliefs without judging others. I just don't see why people can't forgive him....NONE of us are perfect....and WE have ALL made mistakes from time to time.

Lord-General Drache:

Even though you may not SAY to someone, "you are wrong", doesn't mean that your heart and what you THINK says the same thing. If you don't have the same opinion as someone, then in your heart and mind you would think them to be wrong (hence the difference of opinion)....but by not STATING that you think that they are wrong and still being able to share what you believe, you are merely agreeing to disagree on that issue and STILL showing RESPECT for that person's beliefs. See what I mean? The only thing that this boy did any differently from anyone else is that he ACTUALLY stated that he thinks that they are wrong...I think THAT is the issue here, not that he THINKS that the other people are wrong....but that he was brash enough to state it. And I think that mistake was made by him largely because he is young and still doesn't know how to share his beliefs without judging others. I just don't see why people can't forgive him....NONE of us are perfect....and WE have ALL made mistakes from time to time.
I do see what you're saying. In regards to the orignal poster, it would be nice to believe it was a simple error and slip of the tongue, but I'm skeptical of that being the case. Call me jaded, but I've seen it far too often to believe it's an accident, anymore.

Being myself one of the parties involved in the discussion referred to by the OP, I will not accept this apology. For no other reason than because it's not a true apology. You claim to apologize for antagonizing those of us there and then turn around to again accuse us of the exact same accusations you made last night.

Once again, simply because my morals are not the same as yours does not make the moral code by which I live any less valid a code than that by which you live. I do not live by my current moral code because I find it more fun, or easier. In fact, I've found it more difficult to live by the moral code I currently have than it was to live by the moral code in which you find yourself.

I have freely decided, based on my personal experiences not only with marriage, dating, and woman but also my experience with the Church and organized religions to live by my current moral code.

Stating simply that you disagree and have a different moral code is perfectly acceptable and I applaud you for doing so. Continuing afterwards to proclaim that because my morals are different from yours that I am a lesser human being, nay even an animal as you proclaimed last night, is crossing a line and I refuse to accept an "apology" in which you have done just that.

If you wish to apologize, apologize and leave the evangelizing out of it. Until you do so, I will not accept your apology for it is not true repentance.



(BTW, the Bible, which you use as a basis for your claims of my immoralness, has many fallacies due to mis-translation...dont believe me? Then why are there over 100 different translations of the exact same work out there, many with the same passage with different meanings due to wording. But that is neither here nor there)

In Regards to Woodsprites.

The difference is being able to have an opinion, and understanding that even thoug you believe they are wrong, you as a human being are not 100% right either. The difference is being able to realize that no matter what you believe, you are not going to be 100% right either, so you take both sides of the argument. This young man only accepted his side, without putting himself in the other people's shoes, and because of this he was judgemental and rude. You can get as philosophical as you want, and break it down, hell you can even let his age be a scapegoat, however, you cannot deny that no matter what your opinion may be, you will always be 100% right. Here in lies the difference, knowing your opinion and UNDERSTANDING the others opinion, or acting like the 16 year old did and knowing your opinion and only caring about your opinion.

The difference is being able to have an opinion, and understanding that even thoug you believe they are wrong, you as a human being are not 100% right either. The difference is being able to realize that no matter what you believe, you are not going to be 100% right either, so you take both sides of the argument. This young man only accepted his side, without putting himself in the other people's shoes, and because of this he was judgemental and rude. You can get as philosophical as you want, and break it down, hell you can even let his age be a scapegoat, however, you cannot deny that no matter what your opinion may be, you will always be 100% right. Here in lies the difference, knowing your opinion and UNDERSTANDING the others opinion, or acting like the 16 year old did and knowing your opinion and only caring about your opinion.

It was not just that he cared only for his opinion. It was that he attempted, many times and as forceful a manner as can be done through a forum, to convert us to his opinion in a most disrespettful manner.

Neutered Sputniks & Valori:

Do either of you remember when you were younger? If at anytime when you were younger, you NEVER EVER thought you were right and stated that the other person was wrong, then I applaud you....but that is rarely the case. I think that this guy is just young, brash and doesn't know HOW to state his opinion without judging other opinions, yet. I understand that he only saw his viewpoint in the arguement and left no room for anyone else's...and the way that he handled it was completely wrong...but if I may be so bold, I honestly think that it is YOUR responsibility, as the older, wiser and more mature adults, to step up and lead by example. SHOW him how to have a conversation free of judgement...by doing it YOURSELF...when he got too pushy and too judgemental....why didn't all of you take the high road and say, "Well, I disagree with you, and this conversation won't get us anywhere, so I am going to simply say that I agree to disagree with you."? You see, I have read the posts and you guys all fed the fire instead of neutralized it....it take TWO or more people to have an arguement...if you don't argue back, then it's easy to diffuse the arguement...but I guess being the bigger person by just sitting back and letting him have his opinions without arguing with them would've meant that it would've seemed like you were giving up...and nothing bruises an ego like giving up....right?.....but these are just MY opinions about what I saw last night....you don't have to agree with them....and you probably won't.

Actually I'm only 18, so I'm only a few years off from this apparently meager and small child. And the difference was, that no matter how bad I wanted to be right, I had enough self control and respect towards other people to realize that I wasn't going to be right 100%.

If you didn't, well then that's you.

Neutered Sputniks & Valori:

Do either of you remember when you were younger? If at anytime when you were younger, you NEVER EVER thought you were right and stated that the other person was wrong, then I applaud you....but that is rarely the case. I think that this guy is just young, brash and doesn't know HOW to state his opinion without judging other opinions, yet. I understand that he only saw his viewpoint in the arguement and left no room for anyone else's...and the way that he handled it was completely wrong...but if I may be so bold, I honestly think that it is YOUR responsibility, as the older, wiser and more mature adults, to step up and lead by example. SHOW him how to have a conversation free of judgement...by doing it YOURSELF...when he got too pushy and too judgemental....why didn't all of you take the high road and say, "Well, I disagree with you, and this conversation won't get us anywhere, so I am going to simply say that I agree to disagree with you."? You see, I have read the posts and you guys all fed the fire instead of neutralized it....it take TWO or more people to have an arguement...if you don't argue back, then it's easy to diffuse the arguement...but I guess being the bigger person by just sitting back and letting him have his opinions without arguing with them would've meant that it would've seemed like you were giving up...and nothing bruises an ego like giving up....right?.....but these are just MY opinions about what I saw last night....you don't have to agree with them....and you probably won't.


I refuse to accept the apology for reasons you apparently aren't comprehending. If he truly understood what he had done that was wrong, he would not have done the exact same thing again in his apology. As such, it is not true repentance, and thus, I wont accept it.

As for last night's discussion, I dont recall directly attacking the OP...most of my comments were directed at other posters (as I recall).

Do either of you remember when you were younger? If at anytime when you were younger, you NEVER EVER thought you were right and stated that the other person was wrong, then I applaud you....but that is rarely the case.I recall learning to respect other people's opinions at a very early age, because I happen to disagree vehemently on politics with my dad, but I love him very much.
Anyway, I don't think he's going to learn if we tell him he's doing everything right or refrain from pointing out his mistakes.

Actually I'm only 18, so I'm only a few years off from this apparently meager and small child. And the difference was, that no matter how bad I wanted to be right, I had enough self control and respect towards other people to realize that I wasn't going to be right 100%.

If you didn't, well then that's you.

This is what makes you a gentleman, and not a religious extremist.

I myself was at one extremely religious...and at times, I'm sure I did similar to what the OP did last night. However, when a discussion ensued, I was willing to discuss - not fly off the handle making wild, rabid accusations based solely on what I had developed as morals through an extremely religious upbringing. As I stated last night, I'm a missionary's kid - I grew up with the same beliefs as Arathen. But at least I didnt accuse others without those same morals of being nothing more than animals and immoral. That's where the line was crossed.

Look back at my first response to Arathen last night. It was an attempt to bring Arathen into a discussion and divert him away from the flaming. In response, I was flamed, at which point I responded with stronger wording and more forcefully.

Valori:

You have completely missed my point about the right/wrong thing. I am not saying that anyone knows that they are 100% right about beliefs....no one does. I am saying that when you BELIEVE something to be right, then BY DEFAULT you have to also BELIEVE that the other options are wrong. For instance, you CANNOT be both pro-life and pro-choice....you CANNOT believe that there is a God and also believe that there isn't a God...you cannot believe that premartial sex is a sin and also think that it is perfectly acceptable....so the most you can do when you come across someone that you disagree with is AGREE TO DISAGREE...In other words, they can have their opinion and you can have yours and you DON'T have to agree on the subject....I agree that he didn't have to TELL all of you that he believes that you are wrong...but again, he is young....and if you have never made a mistake in YOUR life and not seen it as a mistake until quite awhile later (maybe even years), then I applaud you...because that is also a very rare thing!

Valori:

You have completely missed my point about the right/wrong thing. I am not saying that anyone knows that they are 100% right about beliefs....no one does. I am saying that when you BELIEVE something to be right, then BY DEFAULT you have to also BELIEVE that the other options are wrong. For instance, you CANNOT be both pro-life and pro-choice....you CANNOT believe that there is a God and also believe that there isn't a God...you cannot believe that premartial sex is a sin and also think that it is perfectly acceptable....so the most you can do when you come across someone that you disagree with is AGREE TO DISAGREE...In other words, they can have their opinion and you can have yours and you DON'T have to agree on the subject....I agree that he didn't have to TELL all of you that he believes that you are wrong...but again, he is young....and if you have never made a mistake in YOUR life and not seen it as a mistake until quite awhile later (maybe even years), then I applaud you...because that is also a very rare thing!

LOL, you're missing everyone's points here. We're all stating that agreeing to disagree is all well and good, however, attempts at doing so where in vain last night. And again today, when the apology was posted, it was immediately apparent that no repentance was felt for his attitude last night, thus, it was not a true apology.

Neutered Sputniks & Valori:

So then why did you guys continue to converse with him after he had been so disrespectful? Why didn't you "turn the other cheek", "take the hig road" and be the more mature, wiser and older adults? Don't you think that ignoring his "flames" would've dissolved them pretty fast. One cannot argue when they don't have anyone to argue with. I'm just curious what your reasons were for continuing the conversation.

Neutered Sputniks & Valori:

So then why did you guys continue to converse with him after he had been so disrespectful? Why didn't you "turn the other cheek", "take the hig road" and be the more mature, wiser and older adults? Don't you think that ignoring his "flames" would've dissolved them pretty fast. One cannot argue when they don't have anyone to argue with. I'm just curious what your reasons were for continuing the conversation.

I was enjoying myself? I fucking felt like it? Because I can? With all due respect, what the hell business is it of yours?

(Am I getting frustrated, you betcha. See, it's people such as yourself that refuse actually LISTEN to what other posters are saying that really irritate me. I do find it mildly amusing that you yourself are not taking your own advice...but, whatever.)

Woodsprites..

Just because you believe your opinion is right, does not mean you believe other people's opinions are wrong. I'm a Roman Catholic, and I believe in my religion & values, however, that does not mean I think Muslim people are wrong. I respect that they believe they are right, and I know that I believe my God is different from theirs.

Just because somebody is 15 or 16 years of age, does not mean that they should be able to act as they wish. If a 15 or 16 year old curses at his mother and is disrespectful he cannot claim that he doesn't see the error in his ways because he is young. If anything, allowing young people to be rude or disrespectful, just gives them a scapegoat to disrespect society.

Also, there is a difference between being wrong and realizing it truly, and being wrong and realizing it to save your butt. I know I've made many mistakes in my life, however, when I realized this, and apologized, I did so whole heartedly. I said I am sorry for what I did Ipso Facto. You can't offer apologies with, excepts, or buts, you just offer it. You say, "I'm sorry for my bad behavior" and don't add onto it. That doesn't degrade his beliefs in any way whatsoever, however, it does show that he is really truly sorry.

Neutered Sputniks:

I never said that you HAD to accept his apology...I just think that it is childish to hold grudges...especially when it is all over something that happened in a computer forum....you don't even KNOW this person in real life and you are ready to be his judge, jury and executor...WOW!...I would hate to see what you guys do to people that offend you that you know in person...

Neutered Sputniks:

Feel free to get frustrated....I don't mind! :)

Neutered Sputniks:

I never said that you HAD to accept his apology...I just think that it is childish to hold grudges...especially when it is all over something that happened in a computer forum....you don't even KNOW this person in real life and you are ready to be his judge, jury and executor...WOW!...I would hate to see what you guys do to people that offend you that you know in person...

ROFL...You, once again, have COMPLETELY missed what I've been posting in this thread all night.

It's not holding a grudge. It's simply refusing to accept a phony apology. I dont see how that's holding a grudge - but, I suppose since in your opinion I am, then I must be. I suppose (and how ironic is this) that my opinion on this matter is wrong...

Valori:

At any time did I ever say that his approach was right....no, I haven't....but there is this little thing called forgiveness. Be the bigger person...be the older, wiser and more mature person...and LET IT GO!!!

Neutered Sputniks & Valori:

So then why did you guys continue to converse with him after he had been so disrespectful? Why didn't you "turn the other cheek", "take the hig road" and be the more mature, wiser and older adults? Don't you think that ignoring his "flames" would've dissolved them pretty fast. One cannot argue when they don't have anyone to argue with. I'm just curious what your reasons were for continuing the conversation.

And ignoring them would have left him with self satisfaction for being rude. Something, that seeing from his previous actions, he did not deserve.

Valori:

At any time did I ever say that his approach was right....no, I haven't....but there is this little thing called forgiveness. Be the bigger person...be the older, wiser and more mature person...and LET IT GO!!!


People deserve forgiveness when, and only when they truly feel sorry for what they have done. If he truly felt sorry, then his apology would not have had the buts and excepts. That is when people deserve forgiveness, and when he really apologizes, then I will whole heartedly forgive.

And how ironic that you preach to us to let it go, yet you still can't allow yourself to wander out of this tread.

Valori:

So...since you didn't want to give him the self-satisfaction...which means that a) you didn't want your ego to be bruised by giving up, or b) you were trying to prove to him that he was being rude....now if it is option b, then wouldn't that mean that it was YOUR opinion that he was WRONG in being rude....and then doesn't that put you in a place where you were trying to MAKE someone see that you are RIGHT and they are WRONG (not in regards to the premarital sex thing...but in regards to the rudeness thing)?

I didn't want to give him the self satisfaction because he was rude. However, if you care to take notice, I did only post once, and then I walked away from the little argument until this fake apology. So it was neither of your "options" I was, in essence the better person. I just managed to make him look foolish without having to actually argue.

And before you start to make more foolish options for disrespectful behavior. Please allow me to follow your advice. Arivaderci.

Valori:

So...since you didn't want to give him the self-satisfaction...which means that a) you didn't want your ego to be bruised by giving up, or b) you were trying to prove to him that he was being rude....now if it is option b, then wouldn't that mean that it was YOUR opinion that he was WRONG in being rude....and then doesn't that put you in a place where you were trying to MAKE someone see that you are RIGHT and they are WRONG (not in regards to the premarital sex thing...but in regards to the rudeness thing)?

I dont think you quite understand. The rudeness he was apologizing for last night was in his apology. How can you proclaim to be sorry for being rude and then include that same rude attitude in your apology and expect that it be taken as a true apology.

Example: I screwed up big time with the girl I care more about than anything else in the world. When I apologized, I didnt use "but" because I was (and am) truly sorry for what I did, without exception. And I sure as hell didnt apologize and then turn around and do what I'd done to make the apology necessary in the first place.

Valori:

This isn't personal for me...I wasn't the ones involved in the argument...I'm simply observing what I saw...so I have no level of frustration while talking to you guys...that is why I haven't left yet....I don't have to get up early tommorrow...so I choose to be here.

Neutered Sputniks:

I completely see how the "I'm right you're wrong" attitude carried into his apology....but tell me that YOU have NEVER put your foot in your mouth....that YOU have NEVER made a mistake and not seen it as a mistake....that YOU have NEVER been judgemental to ANYONE in your WHOLE ENTIRE life....only if you have never done those things can you pass judgement on this boy.

Neutered Sputniks:

I completely see how the "I'm right you're wrong" attitude carried into his apology....but tell me that YOU have NEVER put your foot in your mouth....that YOU have NEVER made a mistake and not seen it as a mistake....that YOU have NEVER been judgemental to ANYONE in your WHOLE ENTIRE life....only if you have never done those things can you pass judgement on this boy.

And once again, you have mistaken the crux of why I wont accept the apology. It has nothing to do with passing judgement on this boy.

And with that, I also will disengage myself from the current discussion as you refuse to see why I will not accept this "apology."

Neutered Sputniks:

By the way, the post that you quoted of mine that was to Valori:

So...since you didn't want to give him the self-satisfaction...which means that a) you didn't want your ego to be bruised by giving up, or b) you were trying to prove to him that he was being rude....now if it is option b, then wouldn't that mean that it was YOUR opinion that he was WRONG in being rude....and then doesn't that put you in a place where you were trying to MAKE someone see that you are RIGHT and they are WRONG (not in regards to the premarital sex thing...but in regards to the rudeness thing)?

This was actually referring to all of your actions last night during the ACTUAL debate...not the reaction to the apology.

Neutered Sputniks & Valori:

Bye guys!! It's been fun chatting with you...I will leave you with these thoughts...don't you have anything better to do in your life, besides holding a grudge against some kid?....and by the way, when you don't accept someone's apology (no matter how insincere you think it is) you are holding a grudge.

Definition of "grudge":
grudge

noun {C}

a strong feeling of anger and dislike for a person who you feel has treated you badly, which often lasts for a long time.

I hate saying this kind of stuff, becuase it makes me sound so old...
But I think its the way a person was raised, that makes a difference.

I read the original post, and I saw a lot of apologizing...but then the poster immediately saying he wasnt sorry about what he said.

Its not an apology if your not sorry.

Whenever I was made to apologize to anyone...it had damn well better be beucase I was truly sorry for what I had done, or else I would hear about it, until I understood why I had screwed up.

Furthermore..the kid goes into even more detail about why he thinks everyone is wrong....even when trying to apologize for his actions.

If thats what passes for an apology.....I'd tell you to stuff it.

I cant say I blame anyone for not accepting such a half-assed, insincere statement.

Thanks, Backwoods.

It's good to know that there are others out there who understand why it is I refuse to accept this "apology." And, I use the term "apology" simply because it's the term used by the OP in reference to his post when it is not in fact a true apology.

Holding a grudge and not accepting a false apology are not the same thing. In fact, there is a large difference between the two. Refusing to accept a true apology would be more akin to holding a grudge than not accepting an apology because it does not show the person offering said apology to be truly apologetic for his / her behaviour.

Neutered Sputniks:

I thought that you were disengaging yourself from this conversation?.....More or less what I am saying is that whether or not he ever apologises for what he has done, what good does it do you to hold it against him?...and you are holding it against him (which is a grudge). Don't you have better things to waste your energies on? This is just MY opinion here, but I think that the older, wiser and more mature person would just say,

"I don't know IF your intentions are genuine because you still felt the need to put YOUR opinion into your apology, but I am willing to be the bigger person and look past that....I am willing to accept your apology, and we can start fresh....but if I see that you continue to behave in this manner by being judgemental, then I won't be so quick to forgive next time....one bitten, twice shy."

But you see maybe I just understand teenagers, since I work with teens every day. I see teens screw up all of the time and I have seen them want to apologise for what they have done, but most teenagers are proud, so a bruised ego is most devestating. So instead of pouncing on them, I guide them and nurture them....and guess what?! :eek: ....eventually, they learn how to apologise without all of the "buts"!!! :eek: You don't teach someone not to cross the street without looking by throwing them into the middle of the street and letting a car hit them. Lead by example and be the one who IS more mature. If you never want to do that, then it is no skin off my nose.....but then maybe you have some growing up to do, too....again this is just my opinion.

Neutered Sputniks:

By the way, I HAVE been chatting with him through telegrams...and I HAVE gotten to know him OUTSIDE of this whole mess, so I do know that he is a genuine guy who just needs to learn a bit about HOW to say things...and I have been guiding him gently in that. Maybe he will read this, which I hope he does.....I think that if he sent all of those people he offended a telegram and apologise to them WITHOUT the "buts" that it would go a LONG way in mending those broken fences...would you agree?

Arathen:

I hope you're reading this. I'm only a couple of years ahead of you in this game called life and after reading your original post in this thread I can even say that I remember similar thoughts. I dont exactly know what happened in the forums last night but I'd like to offer you some advice. You're not the only one who gets angry when they read constantly about the ideas that other people have about life. Frankly, I'm sickened by a lot of it. One thing I like to do is get a couple of people you respect and agree with in your dossier. I'm saying NSers like Woodsprites. In fact, that's how I came across this thread. I was reading some of her posts in hopes of relieving some of the frustrations that came about while I read some other threads. Just send a telegram to someone you like a lot in the forums and read their posts once in a while. Peace be with you.

Squirrel Brothers:

You are a real sweetheart...and I just wanted you to know that!! :)