NationStates Jolt Archive

I know there seem to be a lot of threads by atheists trying to debunk Christianity lately, but I think I have a legitimate point to make. As Socrates said " The unexamined life is not worth living" I'm trying to promote nice clean philosophical debate.

I used to be a Christian, and over time I began to examine whether God was omniscient or not. I came to the conclusion that indeed He was, that it was only logical that He could see what was Past Present and Future.

I mean if Jesus( who according to the Bible is essentially the same person as God) could appear to St. John the Divine and say " Write this down, this is what will happen at the end of the world when I come back," then how could God NOT know all of human history in between the Creation and Armageddon?

But this led me to a more distrubing train of thought: God knew EVERYTHING, all the natural disasters and all other manners of misfortune that would befall human beings and he just stood by and let it happen? I felt that apathy was totally out of God's character, whether one looked to the Old or New Testaments. So that is one of the reasons I stopped believing.

What do you think?

I know there seem to be a lot of threads by atheists trying to debunk Christianity lately, but I think I have a legitimate point to make. As Socrates said " The unexamined life is not worth living" I'm trying to promote nice clean philosophical debate.

I used to be a Christian, and over time I began to examine whether God was omniscient or not. I came to the conclusion that indeed He was, that it was only logical that He could see what was Past Present and Future.

I mean if Jesus( who according to the Bible is essentially the same person as God) could appear to St. John the Divine and say " Write this down, this is what will happen at the end of the world when I come back," then how could God NOT know all of human history in between the Creation and Armageddon?

But this led me to a more distrubing train of thought: God knew EVERYTHING, all the natural disasters and all other manners of misfortune that would befall human beings and he just stood by and let it happen? I felt that apathy was totally out of God's character, whether one looked to the Old or New Testaments. So that is one of the reasons I stopped believing.

What do you think?


The usual religious explanation is that all the bad shit serves as a test to see if you're worthy. Not that an omniscient being would need to test anyone, but perhaps he enjoys it.

I hope this thread gets off to a good start because I need to get my title of Deadly back.

I think you shouldn't believe John's prediction until it actually happens.

I had the same questions when I was younger.
It is hard to imagine someone who knows everything but does nothing to stop everything.
I think the thing that helped me to understand it better was thinking of life like a jigsaw puzzle with like a million pieces one piece or even 1000 peices put together don't really make much sense. We have a very limited view of the world but God can see the whole puzzle. While we see maybe 100 peices and say it looks crappy God can see the whole thing and undersands that the crappy part is just part of the overall picture.
hope that helps

The usual religious explanation is that all the bad shit serves as a test to see if you're worthy. Not that an omniscient being would need to test anyone, but perhaps he enjoys it.

I hope this thread gets off to a good start because I need to get my title of Deadly back.

I thought the usual answer was free will. He wont interfere because if he did it would be a restriction of human free will.

I had the same questions when I was younger.
It is hard to imagine someone who knows everything but does nothing to stop everything.
I think the thing that helped me to understand it better was thinking of life like a jigsaw puzzle with like a million pieces one piece or even 1000 peices put together don't really make much sense. We have a very limited view of the world but God can see the whole puzzle. While we see maybe 100 peices and say it looks crappy God can see the whole thing and undersands that the crappy part is just part of the overall picture.
hope that helps

Read Candide, my friend. Read Candide.

I thought the usual answer was free will. He wont interfere because if he did it would be a restriction of human free will.

But he's not talking about what people do, he's talking about natural disasters. Are you saying the Tsunami was someone's fault?

I know there seem to be a lot of threads by atheists trying to debunk Christianity lately, but I think I have a legitimate point to make. As Socrates said " The unexamined life is not worth living" I'm trying to promote nice clean philosophical debate.

I used to be a Christian, and over time I began to examine whether God was omniscient or not. I came to the conclusion that indeed He was, that it was only logical that He could see what was Past Present and Future.

I mean if Jesus( who according to the Bible is essentially the same person as God) could appear to St. John the Divine and say " Write this down, this is what will happen at the end of the world when I come back," then how could God NOT know all of human history in between the Creation and Armageddon?

But this led me to a more distrubing train of thought: God knew EVERYTHING, all the natural disasters and all other manners of misfortune that would befall human beings and he just stood by and let it happen? I felt that apathy was totally out of God's character, whether one looked to the Old or New Testaments. So that is one of the reasons I stopped believing.

What do you think?
You may know something bad is going to happen, but there may be nothing you can do to prevent it. Sometimes you have to make bad things happen, like spanking your kids. In any case, if nothing bad ever happened to anyone, you wouldn't notice the good stuff. And you'd be a very boring person with no character at all.

Bad things happen. It's an unescapable fact of life. God sheltering everyone from bad things wouldn't help any more than keeping your kids locked in their room to keep bad things from happening to them would help.

That, and keep in mind that armageddon is coming. Think of how much worse it would be if no one ever experienced anything bad before? Perfect life, everything is awesome, nothing bad ever happensOMGWTFTHEWORLDISENDINGHOLYCRAPBADSTUFF!

Its just the classic free will vs determinism argument. This has been around forever and has indeed been debated here, time and time again.

Argument as follows:

God is all-knowing
God knows everything that humans will do
But humans have free will and can defy god's plan
therefore, god cannot be all-knowing
But god is all-knowing because he can see the human deviation before it happens
but that means that god knew about it and it was part of his plan, still canceling out the idea of free will.

The closest I have come to a resolution on this debate is that god;s view of history is not limited to a single line. God takes into account all possibilities of human action. What this basically means is that god sees time as a web and not a line. He looks at every person and sees every possible action they can take and all of the repurcussions that it can have. SO we do have free will because we can make any of our choices we want, god still knows about because he knows about every choice we can make and where those choices will lead us.

The result is a medium between free will and determinisn. We have the free will to make any choice we want, but, god already knows where those choices are going to lead us.

I personally still don't buy the argument of free will and determinisn, but thats the best explanation I can offer from the christian view.

The other argument is that one evil prevents an even greater evil. Combine that with "God is mysterious and we can't understand him" and we can't really prove that any disaster, no matter how horrific, didn't work for the greater good. My main point is that you can't consider an omnipotent, omniscient deity logically.

He's right on the money. I can even now see that a God like the one described in the New Testament wouldn't want to take away free will.

Read Candide, my friend. Read Candide.
wow. I had to look that up. I feel smarter. thanks for the compliment, unless of course it wasn't one in your eyes, but then what the heck thanks anyway.

You may know something bad is going to happen, but there may be nothing you can do to prevent it. Sometimes you have to make bad things happen, like spanking your kids. In any case, if nothing bad ever happened to anyone, you wouldn't notice the good stuff. And you'd be a very boring person with no character at all.

Bad things happen. It's an unescapable fact of life. God sheltering everyone from bad things wouldn't help any more than keeping your kids locked in their room to keep bad things from happening to them would help.

That, and keep in mind that armageddon is coming. Think of how much worse it would be if no one ever experienced anything bad before? Perfect life, everything is awesome, nothing bad ever happensOMGWTFTHEWORLDISENDINGHOLYCRAPBADSTUFF!

The issue I think is that a God wouldn't have to do harm to accomplish his aims. The only check I've heard is free will.

As for "getting used to it":
1. The children analogy assumes that they will one day have to survive in an outside world. God is not bound by that.
2. With free will bad stuff would still happen, just not bad stuff that's God's fault.
3. I seriously don't think any events we are going to experience will make us psychologically able to handle armageddon.

wow. I had to look that up. I feel smarter. thanks for the compliment, unless of course it wasn't one in your eyes, but then what the heck thanks anyway.

I meant to equate your argument to that of Pangloss, but whatever.

The issue I think is that a God wouldn't have to do harm to accomplish his aims. The only check I've heard is free will.

As for "getting used to it":
1. The children analogy assumes that they will one day have to survive in an outside world. God is not bound by that.
2. With free will bad stuff would still happen, just not bad stuff that's God's fault.
3. I seriously don't think any events we are going to experience will make us psychologically able to handle armageddon.
I know this is going to sound like a dumb question but here goes.
can you give me an example of something that is God's fault and not just nature or human mistake?

The other argument is that one evil prevents an even greater evil. Combine that with "God is mysterious and we can't understand him" and we can't really prove that any disaster, no matter how horrific, didn't work for the greater good. My main point is that you can't consider an omnipotent, omniscient deity logically.

This would work only if God is bound to do one or the other. As he's omnipotent, he can avoid both.

I know this is going to sound like a dumb question but here goes.
can you give me an example of something that is God's fault and not just nature or human mistake?

Right there.

I meant to equate your argument to that of Pangloss, but whatever.
yeah I got that but since most people think I am a pessimist I was happy to see otherwise. btw I didn't really have to look it up i was kidding forgot to put my :)

He's right on the money. I can even now see that a God like the one described in the New Testament wouldn't want to take away free will.

Have you ever heard of the movie The Question of God? I think that it would give you a few interesting points to think about. It compares the lives of Sigmund Freud (originally a religious man, then later an atheist) and C.S. Lewis (originally an theist, then later one of the most influential voices in Christianity). Just a suggestion :)

yup, Vegas-Rex is the fault of god for giving his father a penis.

VR you walked into that one yourself.

I know there seem to be a lot of threads by atheists trying to debunk Christianity lately, but I think I have a legitimate point to make. As Socrates said " The unexamined life is not worth living" I'm trying to promote nice clean philosophical debate.

I used to be a Christian, and over time I began to examine whether God was omniscient or not. I came to the conclusion that indeed He was, that it was only logical that He could see what was Past Present and Future.

I mean if Jesus( who according to the Bible is essentially the same person as God) could appear to St. John the Divine and say " Write this down, this is what will happen at the end of the world when I come back," then how could God NOT know all of human history in between the Creation and Armageddon?

But this led me to a more distrubing train of thought: God knew EVERYTHING, all the natural disasters and all other manners of misfortune that would befall human beings and he just stood by and let it happen? I felt that apathy was totally out of God's character, whether one looked to the Old or New Testaments. So that is one of the reasons I stopped believing.

What do you think?


What do i think :D

Once upon a time the universe was perfect and every being happy. Lucifer challenged God's authority and was cast from heaven with 1/3 of the angels. God did not destroy lucifer/satan because that would send the message that if you step out of line you will get an arse whoopn and promoted service through fear for the rest of the universe.

This world was created. Mankind had the option to disobey God which we did. This world is an example to the universe of both the Love of God.. ie. through the sacrifice of Jesus christ and the consequences of not living in harmony with god (sin).. ie. Bad stuff happening. We have free will and can choose to do bad stuff, some people choose to do so.

The time frame of this worlds existance is very short in the scheme of things.


If God stopped bad stuff. then you would not be able to do anything bad, you would be a god serving robot.

If God were a parent and humans the children, he'd be arrested and tried for abuse or at the very least, neglect. But because of the "you can't judge God" and the "It's part of God's fabulous plan" clauses held as justifications, it's difficult to have meaningful discussions on the matter.

Knowing and caring are two different things.

The problem comes in thinking that we, as humans, occupy some special place in the mind of God.

What if we are no more important to His Grand Design than the skin cells you slough off every day?

If i knew EVERYTHING, then some things just wouldn't bother me. I mean. Does anyone here care if ants get stepped on all the time? Mosquitos get swatted.

Im sure God would have much bigger things to attend to. That's my problem with religion. They make God into MAN's image.

Knowing and caring are two different things.

The problem comes in thinking that we, as humans, occupy some special place in the mind of God.

What if we are no more important to His Grand Design than the skin cells you slough off every day?

If i knew EVERYTHING, then some things just wouldn't bother me. I mean. Does anyone here care if ants get stepped on all the time? Mosquitos get swatted.

Im sure God would have much bigger things to attend to. That's my problem with religion. They make God into MAN's image.

I think that's a far more realistic deity than the Christian one...

I am an atheist. I see no evidence for the existance of a god. The best explanation I have encountered for this is that the fact that God knows what will happen and has the power to prevent it does not mean that God will prevent it. God does not interfere with free will because He has set that limitation for Himself. God can set limitations for Himself, but all of those limitations arise from the very nature of God. (This very same principal can be applied to the question of whether God can create a rock to heavy for him to lift.) As for natural disasters, those may occur because humankind had a hand in creation. If this universe was created after the Fall, then our sin would have influenced the nature of this universe. This does not necessarily mean that each natural disaster results directly and individually from the Fall, since the influence of our sin upon the nature of this universe may be the existance of randomness. This is all nothing but speculation, of course, since there is no evidence for the existance of a god in the first place. It is, however, a good thought exercise.

2 responses to your problem

1) this life was never meant to be perfect. obviously. it was meant to be hard. its the pre-qualifier to the perfect life of heaven that you can enjoy for eternity if you life this life well enough.

2) you should go to the library and get the book "why do bad things happen to good people" by harold kushner. its a laymans explanation of a reasonable theology that includes the notion of why god lets bad stuff happen to the innocent. amazon.com has an excerpt from the introduction if you are interested

I've never seen an argument for the existence of evil that explains why animals suffer. They aren't moral agents and so don't deserve punishment, and they aren't going to heaven. If an animal dies a painful death, it clearly isn't going to learn anything from the experience, either.

The fact is that things happen. Energy is always active.....these events are neither good or bad, they just are. It is our preception of these events that label them good or bad. We are always safe and secure, in fact the true essence of ourselves is timeless, and invincible, we are eternal beings. Sure our bodies, a collective agreement of atoms on the physical plane, is subject to the particular laws of this dimension, but it is the soul itself that decides when to call it quits(leave this particular body). So, because the truest essence of yourself is eternal, death is merely a transition between levels of awareness(consciousness). In this light we can see events as they truly are...just events....neither good nor bad....simply energy being....The same energy that is Everything. The same Energy that is All Things....The Creator...All That Is....God....Allah....whatever you choose to label It as doesn't matter, for these labels are all fingers pointing to the same truth. Take the air in your house for example. The air in the kitchen might smell a little different than the air in your living room or bedroom or bathroom. That is cause the air in the kitchen has been fragranced by whatever is cooking in there, perhaps your uncle Harold is smoking a cigar in the living room-giving that room's air its particular scent, maybe you just applied some colonge in your bedroom...you get the idea. The point is, it is all the same air. All the same air that flows within and without the house. You can not tell me exactly where the "living room air" ends and the "kitchen air " begins, cause it is all the same air. So it is with God. God is Everything, the Energy that makes up the universe is God, the Truth, the Light, Love..again they are all fingers pointing to the same thing. We are part of that Energy. Although the Bible cannot be taken on a word for word basis for solid fact, they are a lot of truths in it. Relevant to this conversation is the saying in the Bible that we were all created in God's image. What this means is not that God looks like a human being, but rather the same Energy that is God is us, and eveything else in existence. That is why we are eternal, that is why events are just events, that is why good and bad exist only in our minds as concepts and have no real bearing on the Truth. By the way, someone else wrote that this life is supposed to be harsh, with all due respect to that person, I believe that nothing could be further from the truth. God intended our lives to be what we wanted them to be. We create our own reality. All the Masters knew/know this. Jesus, Buddah, Krishna...all of them. They knew this but at the soul level, the true mind level. That is why they were all able to do the "miraculous" things they did. Jesus told His disciples something to the effect that if they had faith the size of a mustard seed, they could move mountains. He also said that they were capable of doing even greater things than He had already shown them, if they only "knew" they could. This is the free will that God granted. He laid the universe at our feet, to be molded at our will, into whatever events we wanted to experience. Our souls know why we are here, our souls set up the events it wants to experience in order to further its "evolution" so to speak. Sorry if this is a little off topic, but I just wanted to address this notion that life is supposed to be harsh. Our true intentions create the "reality" we experience. So whether or not we do this consciously-Jesus, Buddah, Krishna.... or unconsciously...me and you and many others...we are the ones who create our own reality.

The issue I think is that a God wouldn't have to do harm to accomplish his aims. The only check I've heard is free will.

As for "getting used to it":
1. The children analogy assumes that they will one day have to survive in an outside world. God is not bound by that.
True, but we do have to survive in this world. It comes back to the fire analogy used often in the bible. To purify gold, you have to put it through fire. To get rid of the weeds from the wheat, you have to burn it. Point is, you can't reach your full potential if you aren't pushed. If you are never challenged at anything, you'll never excel, and then we'd all be a bunch of fat, lazy, stupid people who don't give a rat's ass about anything, including God.

2. With free will bad stuff would still happen, just not bad stuff that's God's fault.
It's not God's fault. Yes, he allows it to happen, but he doesn't cause it to happen. And he doesn't allow it to happen just because he feels like it. There is always a reason. The bible tells us that God will never push us harder than we can take.

3. I seriously don't think any events we are going to experience will make us psychologically able to handle armageddon.
True, but it conditions us to loss and pain. Remember the whole thing in the Matrix about why they made it they way they did? Some mysterious bad thing happened and everyone was like, "WTF!?"

Finally, the biggest reason, I think, that God allows bad stuff to happen is because without bad things, you can't appreciate good things. Think of the nastiest, most disgusting thing you've ever tasted...Now think how wonderful it would taste to a man who's been starving in the desert and living off of nothing but lizards for a month. Apply that to your life. You appreciate all you have in life more for knowing that it's possible to not have it. To quote the best line of The Incredibles: "Once everyone is super, no one will be."
If everything was always good, nothing would be.

The existence of bad things in general can be justified, but not the magnitude or the unequal distribution of suffering. And the justifications above suggest that some people suffer and die just to provide a lesson to others.

The existence of bad things in general can be justified, but not the magnitude or the unequal distribution of suffering. And the justifications above suggest that some people suffer and die just to provide a lesson to others.
I see no unequal distribution. I think our good is just as good as anyone else's. "Good" is so relative, anyways.

Besides, we're all going to die anyways. What difference does it make when we die?

You have to start with the assumption that there's an afterlife. When you add an eternal afterlife into the issue, you realize that a year here or there here on earth doesn't make much of a difference.

"I know there seem to be a lot of threads by atheists trying to debunk Christianity lately, but I think I have a legitimate point to make. As Socrates said " The unexamined life is not worth living" I'm trying to promote nice clean philosophical debate.

I used to be a Christian, and over time I began to examine whether God was omniscient or not. I came to the conclusion that indeed He was, that it was only logical that He could see what was Past Present and Future.

I mean if Jesus( who according to the Bible is essentially the same person as God) could appear to St. John the Divine and say " Write this down, this is what will happen at the end of the world when I come back," then how could God NOT know all of human history in between the Creation and Armageddon?

But this led me to a more distrubing train of thought: God knew EVERYTHING, all the natural disasters and all other manners of misfortune that would befall human beings and he just stood by and let it happen? I felt that apathy was totally out of God's character, whether one looked to the Old or New Testaments. So that is one of the reasons I stopped believing.

What do you think? "

Well buddy, first of all jesus and god are not the same people and if you had read the bible you would know this for fact and second of all I covered this in a previous thread a while back and the person that responded to this fool in the beginning hit the hammer on the head but I will repeat it for you: You are set on earth to be tested to see if you are deemed worthy to attain an afterlife. So if you think about it god knows what is going to happen and he allows it because what other people do test us as per our actions test others. Any war or crime that you see committed is not god's fault it is the fault of the person who committed the act and if you can't understand that then you shouldn't be posting in this forum. In the bible it states that this life is merely the blink of an eye compared to the eternal afterlife that awaits those. Basically you have two choices: One is go to heaven, you know the rest. The second is the less pretty option and that is that you go to hell and are tortured by demons for eternity for the sins you have committed and the commandments you have broken in life. If you don't try to be a good person and do not repent you won't get in. This being said that doesn't mean you can break all the commandments, sin as much as humanly possible and since you repent you end up going to heaven. Any other questions that can easily be answered by reading the bible?

Well buddy, first of all jesus and god are not the same people and if you had read the bible you would know this for fact
off topic... you don't believe in the trinity theory? do you have verses to back this up. I am curious.

I don't believe in the trinity theory basically because I haven't heard of it beyond the fact it takes about god and jesus being the same being, have you ever heard of the nicene creed? (sp?) I cannot recall the exact words seeing as how my confirmation classes were so long ago but it also says this in the bible as well, the verses I am not 100% on because I am not at home and my bible is not with me. It says that god gave up his only begotten son to save sinners. How more accurate can you get?

I don't believe in the trinity theory basically because I haven't heard of it beyond the fact it takes about god and jesus being the same being, have you ever heard of the nicene creed? (sp?) I cannot recall the exact words seeing as how my confirmation classes were so long ago but it also says this in the bible as well, the verses I am not 100% on because I am not at home and my bible is not with me. It says that god gave up his only begotten son to save sinners. How more accurate can you get?
I am protestant so I hadn't heard it. I looked it up though. I just realized that there is a lot of controversy about the trinity, they don't talk about it much at my church because they believe it is fact, I just hadn't ever met anyone who believed otherwise and was looking for info. most of the stuff I have found on the internet doesn't have any verses to back it up though. thanks for explaining though. it was helpful.

The difficulty comes from the three-fold nature:

Omniscient
Omnipotent
Omnicaring

Two out of those three are possible while bad stuff occurs to innocents.
Three out of three is not.

My general thought, God (if such a thing exists) has limited Omniscience. She knows everything that is happening and has happened, but nothing of what will happen (beyond what such knowledge would allow her to predict). Thus allowing free will.

This means revelations might be wrong, but not necessarily, as omnipotence does allow Her to make things happen the way She wants when She wants it to.

God can be all three because He is all three, refer to my large post above. And don't expect a reply because I will be asleep

Any war or crime that you see committed is not god's fault it is the fault of the person who committed the act and if you can't understand that then you shouldn't be posting in this forum.

Ahem ... I direct your attention to the post you have quoted which included "natural disasters" as an example of God's uncaring nature. Natural disasters (e.g. hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes) are what is known as GRATUITOUS suffering, suffering that is NOT caused by human beings IN ANY WAY. Other examples inculde the Spanish Flu, the Bubonic Plague, and other contagions that have claimed the innocent lives of millions of people.

The question before you is, why does God permit these things to happen? The reason obviously CANNOT be that he is "testing us," for many killed in this manner have been very young or even unborn, with no fair chance for a test before their lives are needlessly extinguished. God has a responsibility, just as any moral person has, to prevent this. He has the power. It would be easy ... but he does not.

I don't believe in the trinity theory basically because I haven't heard of it beyond the fact it takes about god and jesus being the same being, have you ever heard of the nicene creed? (sp?) I cannot recall the exact words seeing as how my confirmation classes were so long ago but it also says this in the bible as well, the verses I am not 100% on because I am not at home and my bible is not with me. It says that god gave up his only begotten son to save sinners. How more accurate can you get?
John 1:1
In the beginning was the word. And the word was with God, and the word was God...

"Word" refers to Jesus.


Anyways, they are separate entities, capable of individual thought, with their own wants and desires, but they are part of the same being.
Two analogies can explain this.
First is a clover. There are three leaves on a clover, but it's all one clover. Each leaf is its own leaf, but they are part of the one plant. Father, Son, Holy Ghost, all separate, but part of one thing.

Second, you are many different persons yourself. You are a son/daughter, a sister/brother, a cousin, perhaps a father/mother, uncle/aunt. And you act differently for each role. You don't act like a son when you're being a father. Father, Son, Holy Ghost.

That, and you just have to think out of the box a little bit. Metaphysics and all that. They're separate people but still the same person. It doesn't make sense in your mind, but it works if you think about it the right way.

Ahem ... I direct your attention to the post you have quoted which included "natural disasters" as an example of God's uncaring nature. Natural disasters (e.g. hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes) are what is known as GRATUITOUS suffering, suffering that is NOT caused by human beings IN ANY WAY. Other examples inculde the Spanish Flu, the Bubonic Plague, and other contagions that have claimed the innocent lives of millions of people.
Not directly, no. But Adam's sin got him cast out of the garden, and got him a whole big bunch of curses about hard living and whatnot.

And do we all remember stories like Jonah? Sent to tell Ninevah to repent or be destroyed? Mind you, I'm not saying every natural disaster is God's wrath upon the earth. I'm just saying it's happened before.

The question before you is, why does God permit these things to happen? The reason obviously CANNOT be that he is "testing us," for many killed in this manner have been very young or even unborn, with no fair chance for a test before their lives are needlessly extinguished. God has a responsibility, just as any moral person has, to prevent this. He has the power. It would be easy ... but he does not.
I prefer to believe that the young are spared from the fires of hell. If you're too young to know what right and wrong are, you're too young to sin, and if you haven't sinned, there's no reason for you to go to hell. As for everyone else, they've been tested before. God gives us all chance after chance after chance. If you're not going to hear the word, you're not going to hear the word, and God knows that. There's nothing to indicate that God would deliberately let someone die without giving them more than enough chances to be saved.

And again, you have to start with the assumption that there is an afterlife. If there is -- which you can assume, because we're talking about God and if the Christian God exists (hypothetically) then you can assume that the Christian heaven exists as well (and hell) for the purposes of the argument -- then this temporary life doesn't matter much. We're all dying anyways, if we have eternity to look forward to, what does it matter if we die here on earth a few years earlier than we'd like to?

As harsh as it sounds: those who die and are saved do go to a better place. I'd rather be in heaven than here. Those who die are not saved go to hell, sure, but it's their own fault they're there. They had their chance, they didn't take it. That's not God's fault, and there's nothing he can do about that except take away free will and force everyone to be christian, which defeats the purpose, eh?

*snip*
But this led me to a more distrubing train of thought: God knew EVERYTHING, all the natural disasters and all other manners of misfortune that would befall human beings and he just stood by and let it happen? I felt that apathy was totally out of God's character, whether one looked to the Old or New Testaments. So that is one of the reasons I stopped believing.

What do you think?
I think it's nice that your God gives us free will.

And again, you have to start with the assumption that there is an afterlife. If there is -- which you can assume, because we're talking about God and if the Christian God exists (hypothetically) then you can assume that the Christian heaven exists as well (and hell) for the purposes of the argument -- then this temporary life doesn't matter much. We're all dying anyways, if we have eternity to look forward to, what does it matter if we die here on earth a few years earlier than we'd like to?

As harsh as it sounds: those who die and are saved do go to a better place. I'd rather be in heaven than here. Those who die are not saved go to hell, sure, but it's their own fault they're there. They had their chance, they didn't take it. That's not God's fault, and there's nothing he can do about that except take away free will and force everyone to be christian, which defeats the purpose, eh?

If that's so, then the existence of the afterlife (or afterlives) negates any repsonsibility we may have to mitigate suffering or prevent death in this world. After all, if that is the way of God, surely we must emulate him?

I think people have pretty much covered it, so I wont rehash what has already been said. Instead, I will add two minor things. The first thing is that death is only a bad thing from our own limited perspective. People talk about all the thousands killed by Tsunamis and other natural disasters as if it is a terrible thing, but in the Christian view of things, death is simply the transition from this life to the next and there is nothing bad about it. Heck, for a Christian death is gain. Also, another thing to keep in mind is that this world is not perfect and never will be perfect and neither should we expect it to be. Perfection will be found in the next life, not in this one.

Read Candide, my friend. Read Candide.



He'll need a good knowledge of theology to be able to discern the obvious and not-so-obvious fallacies within it, but it's a great book, in an I-hate-it-but-it's-pretty-witty sort of way. :D

God allows bad things to happen because he hates mankind and wants it to suffer, as is clearly stated in 1 Thessalonians.

And of course Jesus makes constant references to this fact all throughout the New Testament, the best examples of this being Matthew 5:21-26 and John 12:1-19.

alright im not trying to debunk anything here i just want you to think about this....

if there is a god, he cant interact with us at all because it would completely go against all those physical laws he set up for us in this universe. so if he saved johnny from a fire everything would go kaboom (theoretically). Now another way to look at it is that we were created from an implausible infinity of possibilitys. If we were created from it wouldnt that mean we were once part of it, maybe making us all a little (or big) piece of this higher power?

alright im not trying to debunk anything here i just want you to think about this....

if there is a god, he cant interact with at all because it would completely go against all those physical laws he set up for us in this universe. so if he saved johnny from a fire everything would go kaboom (theortically). Now another way to look at it is that we were created from an implausible infinity of possibilitys. If we were created from it wouldnt that mean we were once part of it, maybe making us all a little (or big) piece of this higher power?

What have you been smoking?

good question

Ahem ... I direct your attention to the post you have quoted which included "natural disasters" as an example of God's uncaring nature. Natural disasters (e.g. hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes) are what is known as GRATUITOUS suffering, suffering that is NOT caused by human beings IN ANY WAY. Other examples inculde the Spanish Flu, the Bubonic Plague, and other contagions that have claimed the innocent lives of millions of people.
I don't know what sort of doctrine this is, but speaking secularly natural disasters are not suffering in any way, shape or form. Suffering is something WE do, not what the weather does to us. You are sort of correct in that suffering not something caused by humans; rather, it is something they endure.
/nitpik

The basis of bad things happening in the world, according to Christians, is not that God allows it on purpose. God gave mankind paradise,
(ASIDE this is all theological and symbolic interpretation of the creation story, I believe in evolution personally.)
and mankind was ungrateful and became unworthy of paradise. So from a theological standpoint, In the beginning, God knew man was/would be inclined to evil deeds. Thus, he determined them unworthy, at least throughout there worldly lives, of obtaining eternal bliss. Also, why would anyone want to go to heaven if they could live eternal life in the Garden of Eden?

The way I see it is, that if there was a single omnipotent and omniscient god, that god would never have created the world to begin with. Why would he? What's the motivation? He knows he can succeed in doing so, so there's no challenge, and he knows exactly what will happen throughout the world's history. So why do it at all?

alright im not trying to debunk anything here i just want you to think about this....

if there is a god, he cant interact with us at all because it would completely go against all those physical laws he set up for us in this universe. so if he saved johnny from a fire everything would go kaboom (theoretically). Now another way to look at it is that we were created from an implausible infinity of possibilitys. If we were created from it wouldnt that mean we were once part of it, maybe making us all a little (or big) piece of this higher power?


That's completely correct.

You can not have something made form nothing and anything that becomes apart from everything else must then be balanced out.

Think of a perfectly whole object that is totally balanced in everyway. It takes a spherical shape because that means that theres is a total balance of every kind of criteria you can think of. It's weight, volume, and density is exactly the same from one point to the next. Therefore all points become one and the same because there is nothing to tell one from another.

Basically this is a theoretical description of what a singularity would be like if we could see one and classify it's properties (which is impossible). It also describes what this universe would be like should the entire system resort into a state of entropy.

Only in our reality we can't be totally whole. Calculate Pi, and you will always need another number to round off. Break open the atom and you will always need another segment to create a smoother outer edge. When you split the atom you do so by making it bigger, until it can no longer remain in it's own impression of what it means to wholesome and must break into to two.
You will always find corners, sides, corridors within and without any object or system that can be created in our universe.

You can only be wholesome with God because God is the whole. This universe and what inhabits it is forever trying to become wholesome. Constantly restructuring it's components until it all fits together nicely without any piece out of sync.

We started as a whole and we will end as a whole. Then maybe the whole damned thing may start again.

Explain it with science or choose to use poetry. One day they will be one and the same.

I think people have pretty much covered it, so I wont rehash what has already been said. Instead, I will add two minor things. The first thing is that death is only a bad thing from our own limited perspective. People talk about all the thousands killed by Tsunamis and other natural disasters as if it is a terrible thing, but in the Christian view of things, death is simply the transition from this life to the next and there is nothing bad about it. Heck, for a Christian death is gain. Also, another thing to keep in mind is that this world is not perfect and never will be perfect and neither should we expect it to be. Perfection will be found in the next life, not in this one.

If death is a gain, why don't all Christians kill their kids while they are young, to ensure them a life in Heaven? Why don't they all smoke cigarettes and drive drunk, or live on the San Andreas fault line or play tag with the cars on the interstate?

Death can't be the goal of Christianity, or Christians would kill each other, and then repent the murder and have someone kill them, on and on until all but the last Christian remains.

If death is a gain, why don't all Christians kill their kids while they are young, to ensure them a life in Heaven? Why don't they all smoke cigarettes and drive drunk, or live on the San Andreas fault line or play tag with the cars on the interstate?

Death can't be the goal of Christianity, or Christians would kill each other, and then repent the murder and have someone kill them, on and on until all but the last Christian remains.


The moment you are born you start to die. We are all dying all of the time. We all die alone. But we live as a whole.

If God were a parent and humans the children, he'd be arrested and tried for abuse or at the very least, neglect. But because of the "you can't judge God" and the "It's part of God's fabulous plan" clauses held as justifications, it's difficult to have meaningful discussions on the matter.
The whole concept of free will is that we are free to choose. God would be a hypocrite if he punished us for exercising our free will by making a "wrong/bad" decision. If He wanted things done a certain way, He wouldn't of created the ability to choose. It is not about good or bad, right or wrong, it is all about experiential knowledge.

The moment you are born you start to die. We are all dying all of the time. We all die alone. But we live as a whole.


The fact of the matter is you are never alone. You have always been and always will be a part of the Whole. All That Is is God. You are a part of that, never separate, never alone.

The fact of the matter is you are never alone. You have always been and always will be a part of the Whole. All That Is is God. You are a part of that, never separate, never alone.


Yes I agree. Loneliness is a self enduced illusion by conserving/retaining cosnciousness.

Hell is a man made concept, invented as a means to control the masses. I know I am kinda repeating myself here but....God granted us free will. To punish us for exercising our free will would make Him/Her a hypocrite. Everybody goes to heaven, which is a returning to the Absolute. As for the Holy Trinity, I think that was just another example God gave us to show that we are all part of the whole. We are just as much the son or daughter of God as Jesus, or Mary, or Buddah, or anyone in this universe is. That is because we are all part of the same Energy that is Everything, that is God. That being said would God punish Himself/Herself?
Sure this gets a lot more involved but this will have to do for now. I gotta jet, i will follow up later though.

If that's so, then the existence of the afterlife (or afterlives) negates any repsonsibility we may have to mitigate suffering or prevent death in this world. After all, if that is the way of God, surely we must emulate him?
that might be a logical conclusion were it not for scriptures that instruct us to love one another and help one another.

If death is a gain, why don't all Christians kill their kids while they are young, to ensure them a life in Heaven? Why don't they all smoke cigarettes and drive drunk, or live on the San Andreas fault line or play tag with the cars on the interstate?

Death can't be the goal of Christianity, or Christians would kill each other, and then repent the murder and have someone kill them, on and on until all but the last Christian remains.
gee if i killed my kids and other good christians i would go to hell. murder is a big no-no on gods "list of things not to do". if all christians killed each other, the whole evangelism thing would go down the drain and doom all the non-believers.

the point of THIS life is to live as well as possible, to follow god's laws in the face of whatever difficulties come your way, to love god with your whole heart, soul and mind, to love your neigbor as yourself. if you pass this test, you can join god in heaven where life is perfect. if you can do this and smoke tobacco, live on the san andreas fault and drive drunk without causing any accidents, g'head. theres no sin in any of those things.

Ahem ... I direct your attention to the post you have quoted which included "natural disasters" as an example of God's uncaring nature. Natural disasters (e.g. hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes) are what is known as GRATUITOUS suffering, suffering that is NOT caused by human beings IN ANY WAY. Other examples inculde the Spanish Flu, the Bubonic Plague, and other contagions that have claimed the innocent lives of millions of people.

The question before you is, why does God permit these things to happen? The reason obviously CANNOT be that he is "testing us," for many killed in this manner have been very young or even unborn, with no fair chance for a test before their lives are needlessly extinguished. God has a responsibility, just as any moral person has, to prevent this. He has the power. It would be easy ... but he does not.

Well I believe the point of the test, isn't to test those that didn't have the chance to learn. It is to test the rest of us. An unborn child doesn't die to teach IT a lesson, but it might die to teach the rest of us one.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the word. And the word was with God, and the word was God...

"Word" refers to Jesus.


Anyways, they are separate entities, capable of individual thought, with their own wants and desires, but they are part of the same being.
Two analogies can explain this.
First is a clover. There are three leaves on a clover, but it's all one clover. Each leaf is its own leaf, but they are part of the one plant. Father, Son, Holy Ghost, all separate, but part of one thing.

Second, you are many different persons yourself. You are a son/daughter, a sister/brother, a cousin, perhaps a father/mother, uncle/aunt. And you act differently for each role. You don't act like a son when you're being a father. Father, Son, Holy Ghost.

That, and you just have to think out of the box a little bit. Metaphysics and all that. They're separate people but still the same person. It doesn't make sense in your mind, but it works if you think about it the right way.

You can also use the analogy that as a person, you have 3 parts. Mind, body, and soul. 3 separate parts that make up one being.

If death is a gain, why don't all Christians kill their kids while they are young, to ensure them a life in Heaven? Why don't they all smoke cigarettes and drive drunk, or live on the San Andreas fault line or play tag with the cars on the interstate?

Death can't be the goal of Christianity, or Christians would kill each other, and then repent the murder and have someone kill them, on and on until all but the last Christian remains.

Because part of the Christian belief is only God gets to decide when you die. He has the plan, we don't know what it is. To kill our kids and have someone kill us would be hi-jacking that plan and then we're not doing God's will which means we're sinning which requires repentance and forgiveness...which you can't get AFTER you die.

Hell is a man made concept, invented as a means to control the masses. I know I am kinda repeating myself here but....God granted us free will. To punish us for exercising our free will would make Him/Her a hypocrite. Everybody goes to heaven, which is a returning to the Absolute. As for the Holy Trinity, I think that was just another example God gave us to show that we are all part of the whole. We are just as much the son or daughter of God as Jesus, or Mary, or Buddah, or anyone in this universe is. That is because we are all part of the same Energy that is Everything, that is God. That being said would God punish Himself/Herself?
Sure this gets a lot more involved but this will have to do for now. I gotta jet, i will follow up later though.

God DID punish Himself. Jesus suffered greatly.

Okay, much has already been said on the whole topic but I hope nobody minds me adding my own thoughts on the thread so far. (Even if you do, I will forgive you nevertheless :p)
Anyway, two short sentences about me: I'm 28 right now, I was baptized when I was 14 (because my parents let me decided whether I wanted to become part of the church or not) and had my confirmation in the same year. I'm a Lutheran and studying English and Biology (which makes me a "in-God-believing scientist"). To those who might say that's a contradiction in itself - apparently you haven't spent enough time in nature, otherwise you'd have seen how His creation is a perfect fit :D
Okay, here I go...

Its just the classic free will vs determinism argument. This has been around forever and has indeed been debated here, time and time again.
Argument as follows:
God is all-knowing
God knows everything that humans will do
But humans have free will and can defy god's plan
therefore, god cannot be all-knowing
But god is all-knowing because he can see the human deviation before it happens
but that means that god knew about it and it was part of his plan, still canceling out the idea of free will.
The closest I have come to a resolution on this debate is that god;s view of history is not limited to a single line. God takes into account all possibilities of human action. What this basically means is that god sees time as a web and not a line. He looks at every person and sees every possible action they can take and all of the repurcussions that it can have. SO we do have free will because we can make any of our choices we want, god still knows about because he knows about every choice we can make and where those choices will lead us.
The result is a medium between free will and determinisn. We have the free will to make any choice we want, but, god already knows where those choices are going to lead us.
I personally still don't buy the argument of free will and determinisn, but thats the best explanation I can offer from the christian view.

And a pretty good explanation and very close to the one I would have stated.

I know this is going to sound like a dumb question but here goes.
can you give me an example of something that is God's fault and not just nature or human mistake?
1st: There's no dumb questions, only dumb answers! You can tell by their answers if a person is smart, you can tell by their questions if a person is wise ;)
2nd, to answer your question: No, I cannot give you a sound example of something that is God's fault. He doesn't make mistakes, neither does He err.
The only point the could be arguable in this direction is whether is was a good idea to give manking a free will to begin with - then again, this would mean to question God (and I'm sure He's not appreciative of that - but it's your free will to do so, uhm... yeah.)

@ JERRF - Please use paragraphs in the future, it makes reading and following your thought-inspiring post a lot easier.

@ RhynoD - I like the way you use movie quotes to support your arguments :D
*Pictures popping up in head*

...
Any war or crime that you see committed is not god's fault it is the fault of the person who committed the act and if you can't understand that then you shouldn't be posting in this forum.
Wow, chill!!! Way too harsh a sentiment! I'm sure there's a better way to tell someone that you disagree with them!
...
In the bible it states that this life is merely the blink of an eye compared to the eternal afterlife that awaits those. Basically you have two choices: One is go to heaven, you know the rest. The second is the less pretty option and that is that you go to hell and are tortured by demons for eternity for the sins you have committed and the commandments you have broken in life. If you don't try to be a good person and do not repent you won't get in. This being said that doesn't mean you can break all the commandments, sin as much as humanly possible and since you repent you end up going to heaven. Any other questions that can easily be answered by reading the bible?
That is where you err, I believe. Even the worst sinners with the most sinful life - even if they worked evil intentionally - will be forgiven when they truly and honestly repent and ask for forgiveness. It's never to late. How could you have missed that part of the Bible?

John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Isaiah 55:7 "Let the wicked forsake His way, and the unrighteous man His thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon."

Ezekiel 18:21 "But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all My statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die."

Isaiah 44:22 "I have swept away your offenses like a cloud, your sins like the morning mist. Return to Me for I have redeemed you."

...
The question before you is, why does God permit these things to happen? The reason obviously CANNOT be that he is "testing us," for many killed in this manner have been very young or even unborn, with no fair chance for a test before their lives are needlessly extinguished. God has a responsibility, just as any moral person has, to prevent this. He has the power. It would be easy ... but he does not.
As much as I can see why you'd argue this way - do not question Him, for you may never truly understand His way of doing or not doing things. It is your responsibility to help the weak, to comfort the suffering, and thus spread the Lord's Grace among the people. When you life a responsible life, you are following God's words and doing the Lord's works.
Yes, there is evil in the world. But more important, there is hope, and love, and God's Grace. Natural disaster is not evil, because evil needs intend. Is it painful? Yes. But only to those who do no believe and do not partake in God's love.
Remember:
Matthew 6:26 "Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?"
So, worry not, but be thankful and show gratefulness that you live, as long as you are alive.

If that's so, then the existence of the afterlife (or afterlives) negates any repsonsibility we may have to mitigate suffering or prevent death in this world. After all, if that is the way of God, surely we must emulate him?
that might be a logical conclusion were it not for scriptures that instruct us to love one another and help one another.
Exactly!

Hell is a man made concept, invented as a means to control the masses. I know I am kinda repeating myself here but....God granted us free will. To punish us for exercising our free will would make Him/Her a hypocrite. Everybody goes to heaven, which is a returning to the Absolute. As for the Holy Trinity, I think that was just another example God gave us to show that we are all part of the whole. We are just as much the son or daughter of God as Jesus, or Mary, or Buddah, or anyone in this universe is. That is because we are all part of the same Energy that is Everything, that is God. That being said would God punish Himself/Herself?...

I'd like to disagree with what you've said. It's more like: "Here's the rules (God's laws) to the game, you're very welcome to play it (Life). But if you chose not to adhere to the law (Free Will) there will be consequences (Punishment) and you will not be allowed to join the afterparty (Heaven).
But - if you can convince me that you are truly sorry, you're welcome to join!"
I like to believe that whenever you chose to behave wickedly, you are hurting God for He would like nothing more than to see you make the conscious choice to behave righteous, love Him and His creation, and your fellow humans. But he will not refrain from chastising you for you could've known you had it coming. And then the real smiting begins :eek:

You can also use the analogy that as a person, you have 3 parts. Mind, body, and soul. 3 separate parts that make up one being.
Good one to explain the Holy Trinity.

Because part of the Christian belief is only God gets to decide when you die. He has the plan, we don't know what it is. To kill our kids and have someone kill us would be hi-jacking that plan and then we're not doing God's will which means we're sinning which requires repentance and forgiveness...which you can't get AFTER you die.
Exactly!

God DID punish Himself. Jesus suffered greatly.
He sure did, didn't He! And people tend to forget that He did it so we wouldn't have to, by "simply" following His example.

I'd like to finish with the for me most important passage of the Bible also is my baptismal-saying:

John 4:16-18 "And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God and God in him."

I don't know what sort of doctrine this is, but speaking secularly natural disasters are not suffering in any way, shape or form. Suffering is something WE do, not what the weather does to us. You are sort of correct in that suffering not something caused by humans; rather, it is something they endure.
/nitpik

You know what I meant. And your grammar sucks.


that might be a logical conclusion were it not for scriptures that instruct us to love one another and help one another.


Then that means that God is being hypocritical ... he expects morality from us but gives none himself.


Well I believe the point of the test, isn't to test those that didn't have the chance to learn. It is to test the rest of us. An unborn child doesn't die to teach IT a lesson, but it might die to teach the rest of us one.

And a God that murders or permits an easily preventable death of a child is not one I would consider good. I would much prefer to remain ignorant if it means a life will be spared, thank you very much.

As much as I can see why you'd argue this way - do not question Him, for you may never truly understand His way of doing or not doing things. It is your responsibility to help the weak, to comfort the suffering, and thus spread the Lord's Grace among the people. When you life a responsible life, you are following God's words and doing the Lord's works.
Yes, there is evil in the world. But more important, there is hope, and love, and God's Grace. Natural disaster is not evil, because evil needs intend. Is it painful? Yes. But only to those who do no believe and do not partake in God's love.
Remember:
Matthew 6:26 "Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?"
So, worry not, but be thankful and show gratefulness that you live, as long as you are alive.

I'm afraid I must disagree. I believe that authority, by its very nature, must be challenged, lest it become corrupt. To simply blindly trust any authority and say "Whew! Glad it wasn't me!" doesn't make me feel any safer. While I respect your beliefs and I know that you have your own reasons for such faith, I have yet to find any.

I'm afraid I must disagree. I believe that authority, by its very nature, must be challenged, lest it become corrupt. To simply blindly trust any authority and say "Whew! Glad it wasn't me!" doesn't make me feel any safer. While I respect your beliefs and I know that you have your own reasons for such faith, I have yet to find any.
I appreciate you disagreeing. And yes, when talking about Him, there isn't much other authority left, now is there? :p
And believe me, there have been, are, and certainly will be times when I lack faith - but I have come to realize that things make sense (to me, at least) and that things will work out in a desirable way (here is where the hoping is involved) and as long as I live a "good" life, I like to believe that things will go full circle for me.
Thank you for your comment - wish you all the best ;)

The other argument is that one evil prevents an even greater evil. Combine that with "God is mysterious and we can't understand him" and we can't really prove that any disaster, no matter how horrific, didn't work for the greater good. My main point is that you can't consider an omnipotent, omniscient deity logically.

An example: Forest fires. Another: Lightning Storms.

Then that means that God is being hypocritical ... he expects morality from us but gives none himself.

no moreso than any parent who makes rules for their children that they dont have to follow.

first of all i knew i shouldnt have napped during church when i was younger, second of all my theory is just cause god knows
generally whats gona happen on earth, not exactly, no i dont bible versus back me up, simply because i havent read a bible in about 10 years , oh yea my other theory earth is the las vegas between heaven and hell and where ever else yall think your goin critters from either or come down yonder to get thier jollies or protect us helpless incredibly gullible humans

no moreso than any parent who makes rules for their children that they dont have to follow.

So if parents (who taught their children not to kill other people) commit murder, they are NOT hypocrites?

So if parents (who taught their children not to kill other people) commit murder, they are NOT hypocrites?
are you suggesting that god commits murder?

its more like parents teach their child "not to kill people" and find themselves in a circumstance where it is necessary. the child may not understand but the parents are not hypocrits for it.

are you suggesting that god commits murder?

its more like parents teach their child "not to kill people" and find themselves in a circumstance where it is necessary. the child may not understand but the parents are not hypocrits for it.

Well, even ignoring all the people that the Judeo-Christian god has killed in the Bible (in whom I assume you believe, if I'm wrong, say so), the fact that people end up unjustly dead from natural disasters and diseases (which we have already established) indicates that God, an omnipotent entity, is at best choosing not to prevent death and suffering.

Can you imagine a situation that makes that sort of apathy ok and morally justified? There are many, many examples (see my previous posts). How can God have any excuse not to take action?