NationStates Jolt Archive

If we take a look at the world from the scientific/we are a bunch of atoms point of view. The world evolved from a big bang, there is no God(s) blah blah blah.. then what does that make us amount to?

Time is infinite? or some bloody huge number

We are a bunch of atoms that cling together for 70 odd years.

our 70 years/(infinite time) =Zero... (approaching nothing, zip, zilch).


Doesn't matter who you are, peadophile, murderer, do gooder hippie or president of the USofA, all have the same end and all live for about 0% of history, all will be forgotten, no ones life better or worse than anyone else.. all meaningless.


So what would be the logical thing to do? Since all our lives are is a bunch of random actions, with no action better or worse than any other action and good or evil only a label given to actions to control the masses. Then the only concern should be what are the immediate consequeces to myself and only myself... let other people have rules, live outside of rules, do whatever you feel like doing and remember that anything you do no matter what it is whether labeled good or bad is simply a random action done by a bunch of atoms that exists for the smallest blip of time imaginable.


or of course you might believe that there is a god of some description who values you ... in that case you may want to consider what you do with this life.

I read somewhere the average human is worth about 6.70, of course if add freedom into that equation you are worth about 7.75.

As an atheist I'm glad that people like you have found religion. So many theists try to convert atheists by using the "if there's no god why aren't you out raping and killing?" argument that I'd hate to think what they'd be up to without religion.

Some of us have a morality that's more complex than "god says this is right and that is wrong". We're actually capable of being good people and good citizens without having to worry about the big invisible sky daddy spanking us.

I smell a troll.

As an atheist I'm glad that people like you have found religion. So many theists try to convert atheists by using the "if there's no god why aren't you out raping and killing?" argument that I'd hate to think what they'd be up to without religion.

Some of us have a morality that's more complex than "god says this is right and that is wrong". We're actually capable of being good people and good citizens without having to worry about the big invisible sky daddy spanking us.


And what is your good? you are living exactly what I described.. doing what you feel like and you feel like being "good". Well good for you ;)

And what is your good? you are living exactly what I described.. doing what you feel like and you feel like being "good". Well good for you ;)
I'm an ex criminal. I could go back to that lifestyle. Hell, it was fun. Instead I'm a good citizen now. I pass on doing some things I used to love doing because I respect the people around me and I want to be a productive member of society.

If that's just "doing what you feel like" then you're doing the same only for the purposes of making an imaginary friend happy instead of out of consideration for the people around you and in an effort to be a better person.

I'm an ex criminal. I could go back to that lifestyle. Hell, it was fun. Instead I'm a good citizen now. I pass on doing some things I used to love doing because I respect the people around me and I want to be a productive member of society.

If that's just "doing what you feel like" then you're doing the same only for the purposes of making an imaginary friend happy instead of out of consideration for the people around you and in an effort to be a better person.

What makes the criminal lifestyle bad? and doing what you are doing now Good? """I'm a good citizen now""" ... sounds like you are a brainwashed one, You got the message from somewhere You are bad... must be good... hallelujah for you brother.

A criminal isnt a criminal until they get caught.. were you bad or did you just get caught. Getting caught has undesirable consequences, so now are you being good... or just avoiding the consequences.

What makes the criminal lifestyle bad? and doing what you are doing now Good? """I'm a good citizen now""" ... sounds like you are a brainwashed one, You got the message from somewhere You are bad... must be good... hallelujah for you brother.

A criminal isnt a criminal until they get caught.. were you bad or did you just get caught. Getting caught has undesirable consequences, so now are you being good... or just avoiding the consequences.
I don't hurt people by stealing, beating the crap out of them or pulling guns on them when they owe me money, or selling cocaine to them. Why is that good? Because by not doing those things I'm respecting the dignity of my fellow human beings.

I'm not brainwashed, I chose my path in life. I'd wager that I've seen more of life than you have and I'm more capable of making my own choices because I've seen different ways of living.

Atheism does not equal nihilism. I can understand where religious people get this idea, as belief in god must be a very important part of their values. However, I'm an agnostic and disbelief really is not a central part of my outlook on life. You shouldn't treat atheism/agnosticism as another religion. It's the absence of religion, and we are usually very moral people, just in a secular way.

I smell a troll.


Sort of... this is a debate I had with myself over quite some time. You know God... or No God and science, go to uni and you get that BS put on you.

I personally amount to about -$37,000 right now:(

But as to the original post: I have only this to say (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v711/sinuhue/thread-error.png).

And what is your good? you are living exactly what I described.. doing what you feel like and you feel like being "good". Well good for you ;)
Why don't you justify your actions in life before the rest of us bother, hmmm? Lead by example and all that.

Atheism does not equal nihilism. I can understand where religious people get this idea, as belief in god must be a very important part of their values. However, I'm an agnostic and disbelief really is not a central part of my outlook on life. You shouldn't treat atheism/agnosticism as another religion. It's the absence of religion, and we are usually very moral people, just in a secular way.
It's also important to note that nihilism does not preclude morals. Just because something doesn't ultimately matter doesn't mean that it never matters.

The original argument in this thread really makes me angry. It's not an argument for the existance of god, it's an argument for the amorality or immorality of atheists.

Personally I think an atheist who does good because he respects the people around him has a deeper and more meaningfull morality than the theist who does what's right because he wants heaven and fears hell.

Atheism does not equal nihilism. I can understand where religious people get this idea, as belief in god must be a very important part of their values. However, I'm an agnostic and disbelief really is not a central part of my outlook on life. You shouldn't treat atheism/agnosticism as another religion. It's the absence of religion, and we are usually very moral people, just in a secular way.

For me personally i see no point in morals whatsover as soon as i contemplate that unless there are some consequences to your actions outside of this lifetime. and especially from an evolutionary point of view.

Sure all that crap about morals to keep society functioning, stop people raping and killing each other, but honestly why do we even need societ to function if our lives = nothing? Take a look at the power brokers in this world they have it sweet... rules for the masses to stop them running riot and spoiling the show so they can do what ever the hell they like.

The original argument in this thread really makes me angry. It's not an argument for the existance of god, it's an argument for the amorality or immorality of atheists.

Personally I think an atheist who does good because he respects the people around him has a deeper and more meaningfull morality than the theist who does what's right because he wants heaven and fears hell.
I agree.

For me personally i see no point in morals whatsover as soon as i contemplate that unless there are some consequences to your actions outside of this lifetime. and especially from an evolutionary point of view.

Sure all that crap about morals to keep society functioning, stop people raping and killing each other, but honestly why do we even need societ to function if our lives = nothing?
That's why you need religion. If you stopped beleiving, by your own words, you'd be a menace to the human race.

For me personally i see no point in morals whatsover as soon as i contemplate that unless there are some consequences to your actions outside of this lifetime. and especially from an evolutionary point of view.

Sure all that crap about morals to keep society functioning, stop people raping and killing each other, but honestly why do we even need societ to function if our lives = nothing?

We need morals because we don't know if our lives are meaningless; until that conclusion can be proven, we must have morals to keep society functioning.

For me personally i see no point in morals whatsover as soon as i contemplate that unless there are some consequences to your actions outside of this lifetime. I'm sorry for that lack within you. And I'm sorry that you can only think of 'outside this lifetime' as some sort of 'afterlife' instead of caring about how people who live after you will be affected by your actions. That's a very selfish worldview, based on your own personal philosophy.

Nor is it anyone's job to convince you that life has meaning.

For me personally i see no point in morals whatsover as soon as i contemplate that unless there are some consequences to your actions outside of this lifetime. and especially from an evolutionary point of view.

Sure all that crap about morals to keep society functioning, stop people raping and killing each other, but honestly why do we even need societ to function if our lives = nothing?

You see no point because your moral system is based on something outside of this lifetime. I don't believe that there is anything outside this lifetime. This doesn't mean I'm a raping, pillaging monster, I have a moral system based around this world, humans, and science. I agree with drunk commies, I think that genuinely valuing humans is far more meaningful than obeying religious laws to avoid punishment.

We need morals because we don't know if our lives are meaningless; until that conclusion can be proven, we must have morals to keep society functioning.
Whew...I don't think I could stand living life as a waiting game where it may or may not have meaning after all...

...I'll take a life with meaning instead.

Whew...I don't think I could stand living life as a waiting game where it may or may not have meaning after all...
...I'll take a life with meaning instead.

Neither can I; I acknowledge the possibility but realize that life with meaning is better than life without meaning, and so live that way by my own choice.

We're here. Let's use ourselves. God or no god.

The original argument in this thread really makes me angry. It's not an argument for the existance of god, it's an argument for the amorality or immorality of atheists.

Personally I think an atheist who does good because he respects the people around him has a deeper and more meaningfull morality than the theist who does what's right because he wants heaven and fears hell.

WTF is GOOD! it's all in your head dude that's all it can be. You are not GOOD you are just a slave to your "concience" which is just "knowledge" that you have been given by your suroundings/life experience!

As for you saying the "theist who does what's right because he wants heaven and fears hell" that is way off the mark.. it's a case of God loves mr. thiest and that's sweet it gives a fuzy feeling which is reciprocated. There is no fear there.

WTF is GOOD! it's all in your head dude that's all it can be. You are not GOOD you are just a slave to your "concience" which is just "knowledge" that you have been given by your suroundings/life experience!

Prove that good is only in our heads.

Is it only coincidence that every culture from every time since the origins of civilization itself have shared certain core moral principles?

WTF is GOOD! it's all in your head dude that's all it can be. You are not GOOD you are just a slave to your "concience" which is just "knowledge" that you have been given by your suroundings/life experience!

As for you saying the "theist who does what's right because he wants heaven and fears hell" that is way off the mark.. it's a case of God loves mr. thiest and that's sweet it gives a fuzy feeling which is reciprocated. There is no fear there.
Good is that which benefits the people around you or at least doesn't cause them unneccessary harm.

Good sometimes requires sacrifices.

As for the love of god being a motivation for theists, how can you possibly love him? He doesn't call, he doesn't write, he never comes over even on holidays.

Prove that good is only in our heads.

Is it only coincidence that every culture from every time since the origins of civilization itself have shared certain core moral principles?
Yep. Likely it's in our genes.

WTF is GOOD! it's all in your head dude that's all it can be. You are not GOOD you are just a slave to your "concience" which is just "knowledge" that you have been given by your suroundings/life experience!

As for you saying the "theist who does what's right because he wants heaven and fears hell" that is way off the mark.. it's a case of God loves mr. thiest and that's sweet it gives a fuzy feeling which is reciprocated. There is no fear there.

So why is the phrase "god-fearing Christians" so popular?

Anyway, who says people are slaves to their concience? We are capable of thinking about what is good and bad and acting accordingly...

Yep. Likely it's in our genes.

It ensures survival, increases cohesion between individuals, and improves our ability to adapt to changes. It's perfectly logical to assume it's a genetic trait.

Prove that good is only in our heads.

Is it only coincidence that every culture from every time since the origins of civilization itself have shared certain core moral principles?


I have concluded for myself that good is comes from God and is inbuilt into us. So no it is not a coincidence that every culture has core moral principles.

Has anyone on this thread heard of Albert Kamus? He was an existentialist philosopher and this is basically his argument for nihilism: We're all dust in the wind, so do what u want, regardless of how it affects others.

This seems to me a flawed way of thinking; On the contrary I think not believing in a God who could punish you for evils committed during this life is one of the best arguments FOR morality. Think about it:

For most people( except maybe Jews) no God equals no afterlife. Just eternal non-being. Actions that hurt others( rape theft etc.) sooner or later bring about negative ramifications. For example if you're a crook u'd probably end up in jail for your crimes, wasting away in a cell.

So why not just be nice to others so u could have the best life possible? After all,( at least i think) its the only one you're gonna get

The original argument in this thread really makes me angry. It's not an argument for the existance of god, it's an argument for the amorality or immorality of atheists.

Personally I think an atheist who does good because he respects the people around him has a deeper and more meaningfull morality than the theist who does what's right because he wants heaven and fears hell.

right on

I have concluded for myself that good is comes from God and is inbuilt into us. So no it is not a coincidence that every culture has core moral principles.
Ever consider that instead of all of the moral atheists being slaves to conscience and society you're a slave of your religious upbringing?

No one does good for the sake of itself, no one.

Athiests want to claim a sense of superiority because they have no proverbial "stick" hanging over their head if they do not act in a way that is in step with common morality.

Theists do understand that the Athiests morality is empty, but what they dont understand is that it is only as empty as their own.

Self serving animals, the entire lot of you.

Strap on your label so that you may state your case as to who is more righteous, get in the pulpit or behind the podium and shout down the mountains at what fools your opposition is, preach on how you have the knowledge and the truth and your way is the RIGHT way.

However make no mistake that you are indeed a self serving animal, God or No.

You serve the ego, and deity alike.
You become a braggart and a petty grab-ass seeking not praise for good works but validation of superiority.
You do no good for the sake of the act--you do good to glorify yourself.
For show, and for thanks.

Make no mistake that it is indeed consequences that dictate your course of action, whether it be seeking good consequences or avoiding bad consequences---it is consequences that motivate you, and nothing else.

You are not good, you are not righteous, save for self-righteous, you are just a human.

Have a nice day.

One who plants a tree can relax in the shade. One who just digs a hole risks falling in it, as do others. Often we are bound by circumstances and consequences alike, our actions reflect that. We all can transcend boundries and disregard caution in expectations of discovering something exceptional, internal or external. Failure and achievment both be states of mind. Our lives are in our minds in perpetual electrical pulses, carried out through meat and bones.

No one does good for the sake of itself, no one.

Athiests want to claim a sense of superiority because they have no proverbial "stick" hanging over their head if they do not act in a way that is in step with common morality.

Theists do understand that the Athiests morality is empty, but what they dont understand is that it is only as empty as their own.

Self serving animals, the entire lot of you.

Strap on your label so that you may state your case as to who is more righteous, get in the pulpit or behind the podium and shout down the mountains at what fools your opposition is, preach on how you have the knowledge and the truth and your way is the RIGHT way.

However make no mistake that you are indeed a self serving animal, God or No.

You serve the ego, and deity alike.
You become a braggart and a petty grab-ass seeking not praise for good works but validation of superiority.
You do no good for the sake of the act--you do good to glorify yourself.
For show, and for thanks.

Make no mistake that it is indeed consequences that dictate your course of action, whether it be seeking good consequences or avoiding bad consequences---it is consequences that motivate you, and nothing else.

You are not good, you are not righteous, save for self-righteous, you are just a human.

Have a nice day.
So you reject the idea that a person can recognize something greater than himself?