NationStates Jolt Archive

A quick look at the list of majors of any college or university will show you that most of the people in these programs aren't actually being trained for any profession. Political Science, for example, doesn't teach you any skill that would make you more desireable to hire than anyone else on earth.

I say that most college students are wasting their time and money by using the following analysis:

Consider person A. Person A goes to college, majors in Sociology, and finishes in 4 years (at least a year sooner than most of his peers.) He attends a public college where the tuition is an exceptionally low $1000/semester. He sits around drinking almond mocha latte grandes, reading the New York Times, and remarking to his friends how he can't believe Bush won because no one he knows voted for him. He operates under the assumption that success is like a big equation: college education + degree = good paying job. Person A's financial situation looks something like this:

annual tuition + room & board + books and other expenses = $1,000 + $10,000 + $5,000 = $16,000 per year. This is obviously pretty low. He does this for four years, the end of which he has a $64,000 piece of paper with his name on it that confers to him all the rights, honors, and responsibilities of bachelor's degree in sociology.

He subsequently enters the labor force making $12/hour as an administrative assistant. After 9 months, he gets a job doing research for the state government, making $32,000 per year. After 4 years, he's fortunate enough to get a supervisor's position and makes a whopping $48,000 per year.

Person B went straight from high school to the labor force. She works as a secretary for one year, earning $8/hour. She then takes a new job as an administrative assistant for $12/hour in a medical office. After two years, she promotes to do more file handling and then makes $30,000 per year (approximately $15/hour). After another year, with her extensive familiarity with the company's innerworkings, she promotes again to a research job making the market median of $32,000/year. After 4 years, she is fortunate enough to get a supervisor's position and makes a whopping $48,000 per year.

Here's the difference between persons' A and B: After 4 years, Person A is $64,000 in debt and has no work experience. Person B has earned $94,000 and has 4 years of work experience. Aside from the fact that there is over $150,000 between them, people would rather hire those with actual work experience, so person B would be more marketable. Not only that, but the time Person A gets a research position, Person B already has 9 months experience doing the same sort of work.

Don't get me wrong; a college education can be beneficial--even when the field of study is something relatively useless. Nonetheless, most fields of study work against a person's financial interests and aren't worth entering into to begin with.

I think we shouldn't allow college students to be army officers strait away it just doesn’t make sense that frontline soldiers should follow orders of someone who has never seen a battle

One thing: given that you already know everything, why do you bother to come here to debate?

If I don't get my degree, I'm screwed. I need it for my job. Yes college is worth it, and most college students are putting their money towards a good investment. College graduates make far more money then someone with a high school education. Not only that, we will get farther. And your person B is not indicative of all high school grads who didn't go to college.. most go on working in crappy jobs.

One thing: given that you already know everything, why do you bother to come here to debate?

oooh... I'm sawwwy :( Did I step on yo widdle towseeys? ;)

Yes.

If I don't get my degree, I'm screwed. I need it for my job. Yes college is worth it, and most college students are putting their money towards a good investment. College graduates make far more money then someone with a high school education. Not only that, we will get farther. And your person B is not indicative of all high school grads who didn't go to college.. most go on working in crappy jobs.

You're absolutely right that college graduates make more, on average, than those without college degrees.

Wouldn't you think that the reason for that is that people who don't go to college are far less likely to be ambitious enough to advance their careers? That it doesn't have to do with a person's skills or training, but their motivation and willingness to sacrifice to get ahead?

Also, you have acknowledge that some of the difference comes from the fact that some college degrees actually train you in job skills.

Yes.


If that is actually the case, I apologize for my insensitivity.

.......Here's the difference between persons' A and B: After 4 years, Person A is $64,000 in debt and has no work experience. Person B has earned $94,000 and has 4 years of work experience........


You seem to have ignored the possibility that person A most likely had a part time job,which could have a=considerably affected the size of his debt and his work experience

One thing: given that you already know everything, why do you bother to come here to debate?

Seconded.

In relation to your post, Brian, I feel it's necessary to point out that some people enjoy learning and intellectual pursuits, and however elitist you may think it is to not want to work as a manual labourer or craftsman some people would hate such a life.

Also, that many degrees aren't supposed to be specific. They're supposed to allow people versatility in a range of jobs for which an education is required. I, who am currently getting a philosophy degree, would love nothing more than to be a journalist. what the hell does the one have to do with the other? Nothing, except I enjoy studying philosophy, would love to work for a newspaper/news agency (Go BBC!) and the industry chant goes that news agencies love philosophy degrees. Why? They prove a person can think well and analyse issues until the flaws in both (or all) sides are exposed - and, moreover, that there never is a true or complete answer: something vital in a business in which so much relies on conflict.

The tragedy in some of the Western world now is that an unfair stigma against crafts and desperately intercompetitive Universities are leading to people who really shouldn't be at Uni being at Uni; people who don't enjoy studying and learning and who won't use a degree for what it's there for - getting a job either in a field which uses the skills a Uni education grants them.

Universities are leading to people who really shouldn't be at Uni being at Uni; people who don't enjoy studying and learning and who won't use a degree for what it's there for - getting a job either in a field which uses the skills a Uni education grants them.

sounds like you have a bone to pick with someone

You seem to have ignored the possibility that person A most likely had a part time job,which could have a=considerably affected the size of his debt and his work experience

You're right. I actually did consider that, but declined for three reasons: first, I let person A graduate in four years instead of five or six. second, I presumed that person A was a full-time, hard working student who devoted 40 hours per week toward his academic pursuits. If I was going to let Person A work 20 hours per week (for a total of 60 hours of his time), I would have to let Person B work a second, part-time job becuase she is just as ambitious. Lastly, I know that tuition is free in other countries, but not so in the U.S. Person A, here in the U.S., would likely pay close to $10,000 per year for tuition, instead of $1,000. I estimated these difference, in totality, to neutralize the benefits of a part-time gig.

But as I said, you're right. I think my real argument is that if someone is motiviated to work hard and get ahead, but isn't interested in entering a field of study that would train them with skills for a specific field of work, it would likely be beneficial to forgo college altogether.

You're absolutely right that college graduates make more, on average, than those without college degrees.

Wouldn't you think that the reason for that is that people who don't go to college are far less likely to be ambitious enough to advance their careers? That it doesn't have to do with a person's skills or training, but their motivation and willingness to sacrifice to get ahead?

Also, you have acknowledge that some of the difference comes from the fact that some college degrees actually train you in job skills.

Many college degrees get your farther. I'm going for political science and I have been criticized (by I believe you or someone else about it). The fact remains, I intend to go into government and go the same way my dad did. The job I want requires a degree.

sounds like you have a bone to pick with someone

It's true. My degree is in serious danger of being considered practically worthless by potential employers because of the sheer number of people taking philosophy as a Mickey Mouse degree because they think it'll be a doss, or because they want to sit around in berets and use the words "existential," "deconstruct" and "Derrida" a lot with only the most basic idea of what they mean and no idea how to apply them to, say, the idea of a woman giving birth being a work of art, to quote a recent example.

Just like the famous old joke: What did the Sociology graduate say at McDonald's? "Would you like fries with that?"

I love my fucking subject, but just because it's fucking cool to do it I'm in danger of failing at life.

Counter example: Student get's BS in chemical engineering, goes on to get the PhD in the same. Earns well over $100,000.

Person B goes right into the work force, takes a job flipping burgers at McDonalds. Earns $12,000, maybe if he's lucky he can aspire in ten years to become associate manager.


Who would you like to be?

Many college degrees get your farther. I'm going for political science and I have been criticized (by I believe you or someone else about it). The fact remains, I intend to go into government and go the same way my dad did. The job I want requires a degree.

It was me, and in your case, because the degree is geared toward a specific occupation requiring the degree, earning that degree is obviously the right choice for you :) I totally encourage and support your efforts.

What about knowledge for the sake of knowledge? That's what I'm at college for.

What about knowledge for the sake of knowledge? That's what I'm at college for.

He hasn't ever shown any appreciation of that concept.

You're forgetting something; flexible work force. After Person B loses their $48,000 a year job, they are back at looking for work, same as Person A. Check the want ads lately? Virtually every job that pays an even livable wage asks for a Bachelor's degree...they don't even care what field it is in. :p

So, Person B is back the bottom of the food chain, while Person A can re-enter the same job position.

You're forgetting something; flexible work force. After Person B loses their $48,000 a year job, they are back at looking for work, same as Person A. Check the want ads lately? Virtually every job that pays an even livable wage asks for a Bachelor's degree...they don't even care what field it is in. :p

So, Person B is back the bottom of the food chain, while Person A can re-enter the same job position.

That's a very strong argument.... I notice the same thing too.

Funnily enough I don't see the acculmulation of money as the point of life, and want to go to university so I can be educated, not to get a better job.

Education should be an end in itself.

You're forgetting something; flexible work force. After Person B loses their $48,000 a year job, they are back at looking for work, same as Person A. Check the want ads lately? Virtually every job that pays an even livable wage asks for a Bachelor's degree...they don't even care what field it is in. :p

So, Person B is back the bottom of the food chain, while Person A can re-enter the same job position.

The "want ads" :) also want people with experience. Wouldn't person B be able to find a comparable job based on her experience? At least she's proven she can do the work.

You're forgetting something; flexible work force. After Person B loses their $48,000 a year job, they are back at looking for work, same as Person A. Check the want ads lately? Virtually every job that pays an even livable wage asks for a Bachelor's degree...they don't even care what field it is in. :p

So, Person B is back the bottom of the food chain, while Person A can re-enter the same job position.Ah well... Not really.

I am the living embodiment of the OP topic.

Before my degree I was making $35K. I took your advice and went off to get a degree. 4 years of effective unemployment (pt/temp jobs don't "count" on the resume) and $200,000 in lost wajes & school loans later I make just over $20K... after 3 years trying to sell my Degree to employers.

Yay me. :(

What about knowledge for the sake of knowledge? That's what I'm at college for.
Must be nice to not have to worry about an income...

there's more to life than money :rolleyes:

Seconded.

In relation to your post, Brian, I feel it's necessary to point out that some people enjoy learning and intellectual pursuits, and however elitist you may think it is to not want to work as a manual labourer or craftsman some people would hate such a life.

Also, that many degrees aren't supposed to be specific. They're supposed to allow people versatility in a range of jobs for which an education is required. I, who am currently getting a philosophy degree, would love nothing more than to be a journalist. what the hell does the one have to do with the other? Nothing, except I enjoy studying philosophy, would love to work for a newspaper/news agency (Go BBC!) and the industry chant goes that news agencies love philosophy degrees. Why? They prove a person can think well and analyse issues until the flaws in both (or all) sides are exposed - and, moreover, that there never is a true or complete answer: something vital in a business in which so much relies on conflict.

The tragedy in some of the Western world now is that an unfair stigma against crafts and desperately intercompetitive Universities are leading to people who really shouldn't be at Uni being at Uni; people who don't enjoy studying and learning and who won't use a degree for what it's there for - getting a job either in a field which uses the skills a Uni education grants them.

Like yourself, I am studying philosophy because I enjoy it. I don't expect a high paying job after I finish, I'm only there because I want to be.

He hasn't ever shown any appreciation of that concept.

I believe that the protagonist of "Good Will Hunting" put it best: "You dropped 150 grand on an education you coulda got for a buck fifty in late fees at the public library."

But I suppose this is moot because you obviously can't learn anything from working, nor can you learn outside of school. :)

Your ancedotal example, like most ancedotal example leaves out a lot.

First, as you've already admited, the statistical anomily of your example. The fact that on the average your ancedote doesn't happen, already invalidates your claim that 'most' are wasting thier time.

Second-no account for grants, scholarships, or relatives contributions. Most, again, benefit from one, two or all of those. Not to mention things like G.I. Bills. If your exampled person is as hard working and dedicated as you've given them credit for they are sure to encounter a scholarship or two, and probably a grant.

As has already been stated over and over again, you neglect enrichment.

And again, as already pointed out, money is not a 'score' in life. I have a friend who was making a mint as a materials engineer but decided that a life making a better bomb wasn't satisfying, went back to college and now councils at-risk youth for far less money but far more contentment. In my book, and his, he is now far more successful than he was.

So keep your shallow and selective ancedote, it really proves more about you than it does about education.

I believe that the protagonist of "Good Will Hunting" put it best: "You dropped 150 grand on an education you coulda got for a buck fifty in late fees at the public library."

But I suppose this is moot because you obviously can't learn anything from working, nor can you learn outside of school. :)

It's nice to have the motivation of a degree and you also have access to like minded individuals.

right.....and how many doctors do you know with only a high school diploma? I wouldn't like to live under your healthcare system :D

You're ignoring a whole host of issues with your idea here though. Here's a couple:

On average, the holder of a 4 year degree makes in excess of a million dollars more over the course of his or her lifetime than the holder of a high school diploma.

College degrees in the liberal arts fields are highly valued within specific areas, beyond academia, as the degree holder is thought to be much more competent in research, writing, logical thought, and presentational skills than the high school degree holder. College teachs skills such as logical arangement of thoughts and best way to convey them.

College gives the student access to a wide range of thoughts, ideas, and cultures that a high school does not. Showing that you met people and learned to deal with people vastly different than yourself is a major plus in the US with its service economy.

A BA/BS from any field can lead to a Master, usually an MBA for your example, meaning more money and better training, you can't skip from a HS degree to graduate school, sorry, and a week training course does not hold the same prestige as either an BA/BS -> MBA does.

College works prepares the student far better than HS for real life work situations, late nights, managing your own time, and so on that is needed for managerial situations where you are expected to work with little supervison rather than jobs that require more supervison.

There's a lot more, but I would just like to add in one thing though about your two examples. Given just about every state and company job and job scales I have seen. Your Person B may match Person A for the pay rate at about the same time for the same job, but 5 years later still at the same job, Person A will be making more for the same work. Why? Because again, just about all pay scales I have seen place nice caps based upon level of education. That $48,000 is quite likely the highest Person B can get a raise to, and with lack of degree, it is highly unlikely s/he would ever be promoted beyond her area into a higher pay bracket. Person A though, with the BA would be able to gain a higher salary AND with the degree, be elegible to promotion beyond supervisor.

Anyone who says college education doesn't pay off isn't looking at it in the long run. Anyone who says that college doesn't teach nessiscary job skills REALLY hasn't figured out what you need in most jobs.

Besides, by and large, everyone running the goverment or running most major corperations has a college degree, which should tell you something.

I believe that the protagonist of "Good Will Hunting" put it best: "You dropped 150 grand on an education you coulda got for a buck fifty in late fees at the public library."

But I suppose this is moot because you obviously can't learn anything from working, nor can you learn outside of school. :)

Learning how to, say, handle buisness management is hardly an area of academic interest to most people, and knowledge of it may make you better at your job but you ain't really educated in the proper sense.

As for "You can just learn just through reading" - in my experience people who haven't got a degree but claim to have made up for it by reading know a little about everything and nothing in depth - reading up on a subject is just not the same as properly studying it in a disciplined fashion with access to various academics.

The "want ads" also want people with experience. Wouldn't person B be able to find a comparable job based on her experience? At least she's proven she can do the work.

Possibly, but I haven't seen any people begging for 10 years of work experince and NOT a college degree. Not yet, anyways. :D

Ah well... Not really.

I am the living embodiment of the OP topic.

Before my degree I was making $35K. I took your advice and went off to get a degree. 4 years of effective unemployment (pt/temp jobs don't "count" on the resume) and $200,000 in lost wajes & school loans later I make just over $20K... after 3 years trying to sell my Degree to employers.

Yay me.
And this happens in MY state? Damn, I only got 4 years left before I have horrible unemployment!
F* this, I'm moving to China. :p

reading up on a subject is just not the same as properly studying it in a disciplined fashion with access to various academics.


I acknowledge that the point of the excerpt from which the quote was taken is somewhat valid, but I nonetheless respectfully reassert that many are attending college to their own detriment.

I acknowledge that the point of the excerpt from which the quote was taken is somewhat valid, but I nonetheless respectfully reassert that many are attending college to their own detriment.

what about essential skill services? e.g doctors/nurses/scientists etc?

I acknowledge that the point of the excerpt from which the quote was taken is somewhat valid, but I nonetheless respectfully reassert that many are attending college to their own detriment.
Ok, I have to ask this. ARE, or have you been, a college student?

As far as I'm concerned, as long as I'm making enough money to eat, afford shelter, and pay bills, I'm happy. Anything else is just a bonus. So I don't really care if I'm 'wasting my money' in University, because I enjoy learning.

Ok, I have to ask this. ARE, or have you been, a college student?

Yes.

As far as I'm concerned, as long as I'm making enough money to eat, afford shelter, and pay bills, I'm happy. Anything else is just a bonus. So I don't really care if I'm 'wasting my money' in University, because I enjoy learning.

I should be clear--as long as you're happy, more power to 'ya :)

Are you also saying that the only purpose of Education is financial gain?

Yes.
Ah, then from your tone I would assume you're in a degree program leaning towards either Buisness Admin or the sciences and are doing the traditional attack on liberal arts for being "less hard".

Most people who post idiotic articles about stuff they don't know about, to incite debate and flaming are wasting their time and internet connection

Proud Political Science Major, B.A. in 1 semester, Masters next, PhD to follow

In conclusion, I can say the thread title is wrong... most college students are spending their time and money on something that is very worth it and will bring stability in their lives. Experience only gets you so far.. you need a degree backing it up.

"Proud Political Science Major, B.A. in 1 semester, Masters next, PhD to follow"

We are a lot alike.. I'm going onto get my masters... but not my PhD. Also am a fellow poli sci major.

Like yourself, I am studying philosophy because I enjoy it. I don't expect a high paying job after I finish, I'm only there because I want to be.

Dude. I like you.

In conclusion, I can say the thread title is wrong... most college students are spending their time and money on something that is very worth it and will bring stability in their lives. Experience only gets you so far.. you need a degree backing it up.

"Proud Political Science Major, B.A. in 1 semester, Masters next, PhD to follow"

We are a lot alike.. I'm going onto get my masters... but not my PhD. Also am a fellow poli sci major.

OORAH! My goal is to be a professor to be honest. Mine are so damn good that I aspire to be like them in my career. I mean there are only 3 out of 4 that are worth anything at my school (it's small) and I tell you that whether we agree ideologicially or not they have never refused to help me and they have never hindered me in anything.

I think the reasoning, real reasoning, behind the post is that the thread starter just realized that majoring in theater was bad and wants to take it out on those of us who have real majors and do serious work.

Mesatecala, how many papers they have you writing a semester and have you done your thesis yet?

OORAH! My goal is to be a professor to be honest.
Good luck! It's a long, hard path (I'm going the same way, but different field).

How about an option C:

Take an apprenticeship or 2 year technicians degree at a technical institute. Graduate, get a job which usually starts you off at $16.00/hr. Then after a few years of diligent service, your company will usually pay for you to upgrade your education, thus allowing you to get a higher paying position.

This is my example, because right now I'm an engineering technologist, and in a couple of years my company will pay for my Uni to get my Professional Engineering degree. Right now I'm getting my welders ticket (also payed for by my company). Of course this only really works in the professional fields.

Consider the following [/Bill Nye]:

- Many employers are illogical and prefer someone with a college degree simply because it means they've had a somewhat augmented education in basic subjects, are intellectually competent to understand a higher level of material, and are willing to follow the customs of society.
- If you extend your analysis of these two people a few more years, the college graduate may still be behind for a while. However, she has an extra set of specialized skills that can bring her to higher rungs in a job she enjoys, whereas someone who merely finished high school can only climb so far in any given job, and most of the jobs for which he will be eligible will be fairly uninteresting.
- Holding a job and going to college are not mutually exclusive.
- Plenty of people, such as myself, would want to go to college even if it offered no advantage, purely for the pleasure of learning.

You're ignoring a whole host of issues with your idea here though. Here's a couple:

ok

On average, the holder of a 4 year degree makes in excess of a million dollars more over the course of his or her lifetime than the holder of a high school diploma.

Already discussed.

College degrees in the liberal arts fields are highly valued within specific areas, beyond academia, as the degree holder is thought to be much more competent in research, writing, logical thought, and presentational skills than the high school degree holder.

You're comparing someone with a 4-year degree and someone with a high school degree who has no work experience. This is not the same as someone with a 4-year degree and someone with a high-school degree and 4 years of work experience. Nothing prepares you for a job like working in it.

College teachs skills such as logical arangement of thoughts and best way to convey them.

ok then. i wish you all the luck in the world in your quest to get a job as a logical thought arranger and conveyer.

College gives the student access to a wide range of thoughts, ideas, and cultures that a high school does not.

And life doesn't.... ok. Even though you're surrounded by people just like you 24 hours a day in an artificial environment, this will give you greater understanding of how people work than actually being outside the bubble and interacting with the world. ok :)

Showing that you met people and learned to deal with people vastly different than yourself is a major plus in the US with its service economy.

Again, I wish you all the luck in the world in your quest to be employed as a I've met lots of peopler.

A BA/BS from any field can lead to a Master, usually an MBA for your example, meaning more money and better training, you can't skip from a HS degree to graduate school, sorry, and a week training course does not hold the same prestige as either an BA/BS -> MBA does.

Two things here. First, I never stated that fields of study that actually teach you job-related skills are not worthwhile.

Second, I'm not sure how prestegious that Ph.D. in philosophy is going to look when you're taking my order at Olive Garden. :) Besides, how impressive are people who spend 4-8 years of their lives to accumulate a net worth of minus $180K to teach part time at the junior college and work the evening shift at Olive Garden?

College works prepares the student far better than HS for real life work situations, late nights, managing your own time, and so on that is needed for managerial situations where you are expected to work with little supervison rather than jobs that require more supervison.

Right... but work experience prepares the employee far better than college for real life work situations, late nights, managing your own time, and so on that is needed for managerial situations where you are expected to work with little supervision rather than jobs that require more supervision.


There's a lot more, but I would just like to add in one thing though about your two examples. Given just about every state and company job and job scales I have seen. Your Person B may match Person A for the pay rate at about the same time for the same job, but 5 years later still at the same job, Person A will be making more for the same work.

This is incorrect.


Why? Because again, just about all pay scales I have seen place nice caps based upon level of education. That $48,000 is quite likely the highest Person B can get a raise to, and with lack of degree, it is highly unlikely s/he would ever be promoted beyond her area into a higher pay bracket.

sigh... :( You still think it's a formula. Education + Degree = Successful Career. You're entering the wrong variables.


Person A though, with the BA would be able to gain a higher salary AND with the degree, be elegible to promotion beyond supervisor.

"Sure, person B has been at the job longer, is more skilled in our industry, has a firmer understanding of our business and it's dynamics, and is more capable as an employee... but Person A has a degree in Geography! And doggonit, that counts for something! Afterall, I have degree in Geography too!" Does that sound about right?

Anyone who says college education doesn't pay off isn't looking at it in the long run.

Ted Turner.

Anyone who says that college doesn't teach nessiscary job skills REALLY hasn't figured out what you need in most jobs.

Bill Gates.

Are you also saying that the only purpose of Education is financial gain?

Absolutely not. However, wouldn't you agree that the primary motive for most is financial?

Ah, then from your tone I would assume you're in a degree program leaning towards either Buisness Admin or the sciences and are doing the traditional attack on liberal arts for being "less hard".

I am an attorney licensed in California. I have a B.A. in Economics with minors in Business Administration and Mathematics. I also have a Juris Doctorate, of course.

I have recently started my solo law practice, which has given me a lot of time to waste as I wait for my client base to build. Hence, I am probably one of the few gainfully employed people with the time and inclination to be in here :)

My motive for this discussion is to engage people in considering the likely consequences of their academic path. It's tough medicine for some to swollow.

In conclusion, I can say the thread title is wrong... most college students are spending their time and money on something that is very worth it and will bring stability in their lives. Experience only gets you so far.. you need a degree backing it up.


This is logical, but I respectfully disagree.

Ah, then from your tone I would assume you're in a degree program leaning towards either Buisness Admin or the sciences and are doing the traditional attack on liberal arts for being "less hard".
Well it is isn’t it?
Anyway, I agree with the OP. I seem to be the only one who noticed that he didn’t say all college was a waste or even that all philosophy degrees are a waste. He was simply trying to get across the feeling in society that everyone has to go to college is misguided. I agree. College isn’t for everybody.

Anyway, something from somebody I actually know.
In my freshmen year of high school I sat next to a senior in a communication’s class (think speech writing and delivering speeches). Turned out, that it was the last class he needed to graduate with a minimal degree. He spent most of the school day in a work program working at a car garage. Just so happened that he was going to get technical school paid for him by a car dealership. There is a shortage of skilled mechanics, apparently. When he gets out of technical school next year, he is promised a job by that car dealership. He’ll be making over 100,000 within ten years after that. Set for life and he didn’t pay a cent. He even gets to keep a job at that dealership while he attends technical school.

I think the reasoning, real reasoning, behind the post is that the thread starter just realized that majoring in theater was bad and wants to take it out on those of us who have real majors and do serious work.


lol :D good one :)

Good luck! It's a long, hard path (I'm going the same way, but different field).

Thanks and best of luck to you as well. How far along are you?

Absolutely not. However, wouldn't you agree that the primary motive for most is financial?

No, I would not.

How about an option C:

Take an apprenticeship or 2 year technicians degree at a technical institute. Graduate, get a job which usually starts you off at $16.00/hr. Then after a few years of diligent service, your company will usually pay for you to upgrade your education, thus allowing you to get a higher paying position.

This is my example, because right now I'm an engineering technologist, and in a couple of years my company will pay for my Uni to get my Professional Engineering degree. Right now I'm getting my welders ticket (also payed for by my company). Of course this only really works in the professional fields.

Personally, I think that this sounds pretty ideal.

No, I would not.
Then you live in an ivory tower. The average person cares very little about pure knowledge, and today, the average person attends college.

lol :D good one :)

Here I found this on the net and I thought it was good for you and for this topic.

http://www.theforsakenoutlaw.com/Graphics/Other/postcount-smiley.bmp

[QUOTE=Zincite]- Many employers are illogical and prefer someone with a college degree simply because it means they've had a somewhat augmented education in basic subjects, are intellectually competent to understand a higher level of material, and are willing to follow the customs of society.[QUOTE]

This is the best argument I've heard yet.

I don't deny that a college graduate is going to make a lot more money over the course of their career than a non-college grad. As was said before, you can move up in a company without a degree, but if you are forced to leave for whatever reason it is hard to go to another place and stay at the same level if you're competing against a bunch of people who have 4 year degrees.

But is that necessarily the way things should be in many cases? I think the collegiate system, or the perception that a college graduate is so much more competent than a non-college grad has run completly amuck and does more harm than good in many industries.

Here's a programming example that can illustrate my point. Let's say a manager at an IT firm is looking for someone to program in a certain language. Learning an individual programming language isn't all that hard, you could probably take anyone with a fair amount of aptitude and bring them to a point where they could be useful within 3-6 months.

But instead of hiring someone reasonably cheap and training them, most people in that position instead filter their way through college grads. In many cases the grad hasn't worked in the language anymore than someone off the street would ... there are so many different languages, which are constantly evolving, that it is impossible for a school to train someone up to industry standard in more than a few. The college grad is about $60,000 in debt, and because of that instead of asking for $30,000 a year, they need to ask for $50,000+ a year as an entry level employee and might well leave and take the employers investment in them as soon as they get enough experience to go work somewhere else. So this hurts the employer, who might then be just as apt to say fuck it and move the job overseas.

I can only really speak for IT, but I can say that that industry has become so bloated with certification and degree requirements that you need a five figure ante just to get into the field. And more often than not, you're working in a specialized niche that doesn't touch on 95% or more of the shit you had to learn in formal education. I find it hard to believe that that wouldn't be true of most industries, where you actually use 5% of your education and the rest is not applicable to the actual specialized job that you do.

To the claim that college teaches work skills, management skills and discipline, well you can learn those things in lots of places. The military could probably teach you those things better than college could.

There are some fields where of course absolutly require formal extended education. Medicine, the sciences where there is no substitute for lab work. Teaching. But for the most part the structure of our collegiate system just seems like another way to ensure that rich people stay on top.

Well it is isn’t it?
Anyway, I agree with the OP. I seem to be the only one who noticed that he didn’t say all college was a waste or even that all philosophy degrees are a waste. He was simply trying to get across the feeling in society that everyone has to go to college is misguided. I agree. College isn’t for everybody.

Anyway, something from somebody I actually know.
In my freshmen year of high school I sat next to a senior in a communication’s class (think speech writing and delivering speeches). Turned out, that it was the last class he needed to graduate with a minimal degree. He spent most of the school day in a work program working at a car garage. Just so happened that he was going to get technical school paid for him by a car dealership. There is a shortage of skilled mechanics, apparently. When he gets out of technical school next year, he is promised a job by that car dealership. He’ll be making over 100,000 within ten years after that. Set for life and he didn’t pay a cent. He even gets to keep a job at that dealership while he attends technical school.

Exactly, thank you.

OORAH! My goal is to be a professor to be honest. Mine are so damn good that I aspire to be like them in my career. I mean there are only 3 out of 4 that are worth anything at my school (it's small) and I tell you that whether we agree ideologicially or not they have never refused to help me and they have never hindered me in anything.

I'm going into government... probably the same way as my dad..


Mesatecala, how many papers they have you writing a semester and have you done your thesis yet?

Well I'm going onto my third year, and am just going to take my poli sci 372 class the upcoming semester (starts August 29th). I've written plenty of papers (perhaps a dozen for the lower division poli sci classes I have done). But no thesis yet (that comes with the poli sci 372 class). Hope for me. :/

Brian just doesn't understand that degrees are needed now.. and then he says something like this:

"My motive for this discussion is to engage people in considering the likely consequences of their academic path. It's tough medicine for some to swollow [sic]."

What consequences? People with B.A degrees simply have many more options open to them. They are more dynamic. They have more options.

I'm going into government... probably the same way as my dad..



Well I'm going onto my third year, and am just going to take my poli sci 372 class the upcoming semester (starts August 29th). I've written plenty of papers (perhaps a dozen for the lower division poli sci classes I have done). But no thesis yet (that comes with the poli sci 372 class). Hope for me. :/

Brian just doesn't understand that degrees are needed now.. and then he says something like this:

"My motive for this discussion is to engage people in considering the likely consequences of their academic path. It's tough medicine for some to swollow [sic]."

What consequences? People with B.A degrees simply have many more options open to them. They are more dynamic. They have more options.


Pretty good. I usually write, at minimum, 1 per class a semester, usually long ones, 20 - 24 pages. In my POL301 Class (Theory & Method), the meat of the pollie sci program we wrote 5, 5 to 8 pages, arguing a point of view and we rewrote them until they were satisfactory to the professor. It was a hard course so the A was more than earned. In my thesis class I wrote a 53 page thesis on Chechen Nationalism in under 24 hours of work time (due thurs, started monday) LOL! I had read the 8 sources that semester and studied a lot throughout the course but never wrote anything until the actual paper you know. Hell man I think, in the past 2 years as a pollie sci major (switched from computer science to pollie sci after my sophomore year) I have writen maybe 30 papers, quite a bit. I am going to put them all on PDF when I graduate this semester (got suspended so I am 1 semester behind) and all that.

In fact, one of my classes this semester is actually independent study to create my own political philosophy. It'll weigh heavily on Machiavelli and Hobbes, von Clauswitz (if I ever read the damn book "On War") and probably some Rosseau as well.

Pretty good. I usually write, at minimum, 1 per class a semester, usually long ones, 20 - 24 pages. In my POL301 Class (Theory & Method), the meat of the pollie sci program we wrote 5, 5 to 8 pages, arguing a point of view and we rewrote them until they were satisfactory to the professor. It was a hard course so the A was more than earned. In my thesis class I wrote a 53 page thesis on Chechen Nationalism in under 24 hours of work time (due thurs, started monday) LOL! I had read the 8 sources that semester and studied a lot throughout the course but never wrote anything until the actual paper you know. Hell man I think, in the past 2 years as a pollie sci major (switched from computer science to pollie sci after my sophomore year) I have writen maybe 30 papers, quite a bit. I am going to put them all on PDF when I graduate this semester (got suspended so I am 1 semester behind) and all that.


Most pages I have done have only been 4-8 pages. I have not done anything more then that (well there was one that was ten pages but that was for a different class unrelated to my major). I'm more into politics, so I'm going to stick to this. I have a lot to say on issues and can go on and on...

What consequences? People with B.A degrees simply have many more options open to them. They are more dynamic. They have more options.

The consequences I was referring to were the debt and late career start (relative to someone entering the labor force straight from high school).

As for more options, that may or may not be true, depending on the field of study. If you have a career path in mind, there's not much that you can't do without a college education.

Most pages I have done have only been 4-8 pages. I have not done anything more then that (well there was one that was ten pages but that was for a different class unrelated to my major). I'm more into politics, so I'm going to stick to this. I have a lot to say on issues and can go on and on...

Yeah I'm more into the theory and philosophy and method behind it. I do not want to go into public administration but rather be the guy behind the scenes that knows what to do, when to do it, and how to do it. You know, the guy that gets paid more and knows the stuff the President doesn't.

ok
Let's get ready to RUUUUUUUUUMBLE! *sorry, couldn't resist*

Already discussed.
Indeed it was, but I felt it was an important enough point to reinterate as you just brushed past it. The difference in earning power over a lifetime is very real and a significant ammount of money. It also ties into my point later on that you will go father, faster (usually, exceptions to every rule) with a college degree than without.

You're comparing someone with a 4-year degree and someone with a high school degree who has no work experience. This is not the same as someone with a 4-year degree and someone with a high-school degree and 4 years of work experience. Nothing prepares you for a job like working in it.
Which is no doubt why I have seen many folks hired over long term employees for a post just because they held a degree. And I am doing so because that is a more fair comparison. You want to give the four years experiance to the HS graduate, which does incease her status and skills, however, this is compairng apples to mikans. A MUCH better comparison would be at the start of looking for a job and how an employeer would view them.

ok then. i wish you all the luck in the world in your quest to get a job as a logical thought arranger and conveyer.
As a lawyer, I am sure you of all people appreciate those folks who can logically arange and present their ideas... or has trial theatrics REALLY taken over that much? (Ok, that was unworthy of both you and me, but the point is real).

And life doesn't.... ok. Even though you're surrounded by people just like you 24 hours a day in an artificial environment, this will give you greater understanding of how people work than actually being outside the bubble and interacting with the world. ok :)

Again, I wish you all the luck in the world in your quest to be employed as a I've met lots of peopler.
Grouping these two together. One, no one in their right mind runs these as their primary job skills, but they are a consideration for employment, just not the primary. And college does bring together various cultures (both within country and internationally) that ones does not encounter or interact with in daily life.

Finally, you're trying again to compare a college gradute with no job experiance to your HS graduate with 4 years work experiance. Either base it off of both of their entries at first into the job field or give the college grade the same experiance otherwise your comparison is false.

Two things here. First, I never stated that fields of study that actually teach you job-related skills are not worthwhile.

Second, I'm not sure how prestegious that Ph.D. in philosophy is going to look when you're taking my order at Olive Garden. :) Besides, how impressive are people who spend 4-8 years of their lives to accumulate a net worth of minus $180K to teach part time at the junior college and work the evening shift at Olive Garden?
I've yet to meet a PhD holder beyond late 20s working two jobs, even philosophy. Most junior college teachers are either PhD students or are teaching full time. Many are actually employed FULL time, and not at the Olive Garden.

Right... but work experience prepares the employee far better than college for real life work situations, late nights, managing your own time, and so on that is needed for managerial situations where you are expected to work with little supervision rather than jobs that require more supervision.
Again, you're trying to compare the HS grad who has worked 4 years with a college grad who has not. False comparison.

This is incorrect.
Haven't seen state pay scales and the reasons behind them have you? Oh yes, the degree makes a difference.

sigh... :( You still think it's a formula. Education + Degree = Successful Career. You're entering the wrong variables.
On average, yes (remember that million dollars more? Does that not sound sucessful to YOU?)

"Sure, person B has been at the job longer, is more skilled in our industry, has a firmer understanding of our business and it's dynamics, and is more capable as an employee... but Person A has a degree in Geography! And doggonit, that counts for something! Afterall, I have degree in Geography too!" Does that sound about right?
Well, not only have I actually seen that happen, but once again you're busy trying to compare the 4 years work to newly minted college grade. Compare the college grad with the same work experience and that degree will make a large difference. And again, look at the job descriptions, especially within goverment, no degree, doesn't matter how long you've been there, you won't be promoted.

Ted Turner.

Bill Gates.
Two people out of HOW many execs? There are exceptions of course, but usually those people shine out. But for the average person, not the Bill Gates of the world, that degree makes a great deal of difference. In getting a job, being promoted, and the money you earn.

I am an attorney licensed in California. I have a B.A. in Economics with minors in Business Administration and Mathematics. I also have a Juris Doctorate, of course.
And none of the skills you have learned have not come in handy? And if you went looking for people to hire, be honest now, are you going to go for a fresh out of high school kid, or a college graduate who has the skills you're looking for and has proven the ability to stick with a program and work hard?

I have recently started my solo law practice, which has given me a lot of time to waste as I wait for my client base to build. Hence, I am probably one of the few gainfully employed people with the time and inclination to be in here
That's nice. I'm B.A. Sec Ed Eng M.S. CEP IT Ed meself, and am employed as a teacher. We're on break so I have a few minutes to play... till tomorrow.

My motive for this discussion is to engage people in considering the likely consequences of their academic path. It's tough medicine for some to swollow.
I would ask this question to you then, what is far more important, making money, but being miserable at your job for it is not what you want to do. Or making less money, but loving your job and going home happy every night? Especially as you have the next 40 years to work.

As a teacher, even as a full tentured professor (where I'm heading) I won't make that much, but I go home every night tired, but loving my job.

And I'm still making more than a high school graduate.

The consequences I was referring to were the debt and late career start (relative to someone entering the labor force straight from high school).

As for more options, that may or may not be true, depending on the field of study. If you have a career path in mind, there's not much that you can't do without a college education.

First off plenty of financial aid (money you don't have to pay back) is avaliable. You can get money just for having good grades (very easy to get).

Yeah I'm more into the theory and philosophy and method behind it. I do not want to go into public administration but rather be the guy behind the scenes that knows what to do, when to do it, and how to do it. You know, the guy that gets paid more and knows the stuff the President doesn't.

Oh believe me I don't want to go into an elected position. My dad works for the State Department... I prefer just to be someone who types up reports about various parts of the world... or something along that line.

Thanks and best of luck to you as well. How far along are you?
I have my MS and am currently getting classroom experiance before applying to a PhD program. I plan to study and devlop better ways to teach ESL/EFL/FLE with using information technologies.

I have my MS and am currently getting classroom experiance before applying to a PhD program. I plan to study and devlop better ways to teach ESL/EFL/FLE with using information technologies.

ESL, EFL, FLE What are those?

Yes I plan on working my way through MS with a TA or something of the like you know.

ESL, EFL, FLE What are those?

Yes I plan on working my way through MS with a TA or something of the like you know.

Sorry, English as a Second Language, English as a Foreign Language, and Foreign Language Education.

And good luck to you again. Grad school is SO much fun!

A quick look at the list of majors of any college or university will show you that most of the people in these programs aren't actually being trained for any profession. Political Science, for example, doesn't teach you any skill that would make you more desireable to hire than anyone else on earth.

Well, you are wrong right off the bat. Political science majors become Congressional aides, political lobbyists and analysts for a wide range of companies and other organizations, and political correspondents for various media. They manage political campaigns (yes, paid staff), and they take jobs at all levels of government bureaucracy.

Moreover, I second the comment that an education is worth more than the earnings in which it results. One is only "wasting" time and money if one is dissatisfied with the result... interestingly enough, I know more philosophy majors than engineers who are happy with their college education.

OORAH! My goal is to be a professor to be honest. Mine are so damn good that I aspire to be like them in my career. I mean there are only 3 out of 4 that are worth anything at my school (it's small) and I tell you that whether we agree ideologicially or not they have never refused to help me and they have never hindered me in anything.

Cool... even though you'll be my competition in a few years. ;)

I am working on my Ph.D. ... and tonight was the last session of the first class I have taught on my own! Yay!!

I actually thought they all hated me... because I'm a tough grader, and I assigned a lot of postcolonial theory, which the white kids really resisted. Nevertheless, when I dismissed them for the last time tonight, they all lined up to shake my hand and thank me for the class. It was so weird... I almost cried!! People do surprise you... ;)

annual tuition + room & board + books and other expenses = $1,000 + $10,000 + $5,000 = $16,000 per year. This is obviously pretty low. He does this for four years, the end of which he has a $64,000 piece of paper with his name on it that confers to him all the rights, honors, and responsibilities of bachelor's degree in sociology.

$10,00 a year for room and board? Where the heck did you live when you went to college? You can get a nice two bedroom appartment in Chicago for that much.

$10,00 a year for room and board? Where the heck did you live when you went to college? You can get a nice two bedroom appartment in Chicago for that much.

Yeah my college was just under $10,000/yr for room & board and another $16,000 for tuition when I started but tuition has since increased. This is also NY. $1,000/month can get you something $200/month can get you in somewhere else.

$10,00 a year for room and board? Where the heck did you live when you went to college? You can get a nice two bedroom appartment in Chicago for that much.

Actually, that sounds about right... living on campus is especially expensive. As an undergrad, I took out about $10,000/yr in loans for room and board... which, for me, was motivation to get out quickly!! I made it out with a double major in 2 1/2 years.

Anyway, now I'm in grad school... and my on-campus apartment is $7000/yr, or a little less than $600/month. All utilities, of course, are included... I actually couldn't do much better by moving off campus.

$10,00 a year for room and board? Where the heck did you live when you went to college? You can get a nice two bedroom appartment in Chicago for that much.
Actually, $10,000 for room AND board is a bit on the low side right now.

But it should be noted of course that includes all furnature, food, and other perks of living in the dorms that would have to be paid for outside.

one big difference in the entire equation there: Person A (college degree) has the potental and the capability to go much higher and further in the work force.

Person B (no college) on the other hand will be limited to a lower-income job because of lack of higher learning.

A philosophy degree is more than just learning philosophy.
A chem degree is more than just learning chem.
Even a business degree is more than just a learning business skills.

They all teach various thinking skills and habits of mind. It is these skills that many look for in an employee. What do phyisics and investing have in common? I don't know, but a lot of physics majors get hired by banks and investment firms. Somehow the law schools have many history majors in them, why aren't the filled with prelaw majors? College uses factual knowledge only as an engine for teaching vastly more useful thinking skills.

Like yourself, I am studying philosophy because I enjoy it. I don't expect a high paying job after I finish, I'm only there because I want to be.
I wish I could afford to be a perpetual student. I really enjoy(ed) Uni. Unfortunately, I have a family to feed and a mortgage to pay and the degree I did get has given me access to precicely squat in income terms.

I only have to pay the the paper I use. (About 80$ pr. year)
The education itself is goverment funded. :D

I believe that the protagonist of "Good Will Hunting" put it best: "You dropped 150 grand on an education you coulda got for a buck fifty in late fees at the public library."

But I suppose this is moot because you obviously can't learn anything from working, nor can you learn outside of school. :)
Heh. I own both a full set of Harvard Classics and Collier's Great Books. Either is a complete (if dated) Liberal Education.

As for the poster who asked if Brian would hire a college grad over a non-grad... take a look at the requirements to be a paralegal sometime. Experience in a law office is far more important than a college education - and a paralegal can make bank - without being stuck with a $36,000 consolidated student loan costing 8%. :headbang:

A quick look at the list of majors of any college or university will show you that most of the people in these programs aren't actually being trained for any profession. Political Science, for example, doesn't teach you any skill that would make you more desireable to hire than anyone else on earth.

I say that most college students are wasting their time and money by using the following analysis:

Consider person A. Person A goes to college, majors in Sociology, and finishes in 4 years (at least a year sooner than most of his peers.) He attends a public college where the tuition is an exceptionally low $1000/semester. He sits around drinking almond mocha latte grandes, reading the New York Times, and remarking to his friends how he can't believe Bush won because no one he knows voted for him. He operates under the assumption that success is like a big equation: college education + degree = good paying job. Person A's financial situation looks something like this:

annual tuition + room & board + books and other expenses = $1,000 + $10,000 + $5,000 = $16,000 per year. This is obviously pretty low. He does this for four years, the end of which he has a $64,000 piece of paper with his name on it that confers to him all the rights, honors, and responsibilities of bachelor's degree in sociology.

He subsequently enters the labor force making $12/hour as an administrative assistant. After 9 months, he gets a job doing research for the state government, making $32,000 per year. After 4 years, he's fortunate enough to get a supervisor's position and makes a whopping $48,000 per year.

Person B went straight from high school to the labor force. She works as a secretary for one year, earning $8/hour. She then takes a new job as an administrative assistant for $12/hour in a medical office. After two years, she promotes to do more file handling and then makes $30,000 per year (approximately $15/hour). After another year, with her extensive familiarity with the company's innerworkings, she promotes again to a research job making the market median of $32,000/year. After 4 years, she is fortunate enough to get a supervisor's position and makes a whopping $48,000 per year.

Here's the difference between persons' A and B: After 4 years, Person A is $64,000 in debt and has no work experience. Person B has earned $94,000 and has 4 years of work experience. Aside from the fact that there is over $150,000 between them, people would rather hire those with actual work experience, so person B would be more marketable. Not only that, but the time Person A gets a research position, Person B already has 9 months experience doing the same sort of work.

Don't get me wrong; a college education can be beneficial--even when the field of study is something relatively useless. Nonetheless, most fields of study work against a person's financial interests and aren't worth entering into to begin with.

Ok since you took a 'go' :) at poli sci which is what I am doing along with history....
I only want to work in a political area-mainly the UN-which I cannot do with out a college degree and a masters.
For most 'political' jobs you need a degree. Granted when I finish next year I will (actually would be qualified to teach history and civics in seconday school) not have as clear qualification as a med student, which is why I am continuing on to do an MA. In 10 years time if I came up against candidate 'B' for the particular line of work which I am interested in..I would get the job.
College isn't just about getting qualifications, a degree in poli sci offers so much more.
Its a proven fact that college graduates make more money (statistically) than non college entrants.

I've been an undergraduate student, postgraduate student and worked in a uni as an IT support officer (in Australia). Uni is expensive, but in Australia it is still cheaper than the US but the current government is changing all that.

If you want to live in a society in which there is absolutely no waste of money, time, effort etc, you are welcome to move to the Soviet Union. Oh wait...communism has already been proven to fail!! Ooops! Perhaps you can live like a caveman.

If you want to live in a society in which there is absolutely no waste of money, time, effort etc, you are welcome to move to the Soviet Union. Oh wait...communism has already been proven to fail!! Ooops! Perhaps you can live like a caveman.

Yes, so if you see something in society that is inefficient and is wasting peoples time or money, don't try to correct it. That's something Stalin would do, and you don't want to be like Stalin, do you? [/Sarcasm]

Yes, so if you see something in society that is inefficient and is wasting peoples time or money, don't try to correct it. That's something Stalin would have done. :rolleyes:

Then you have to strike a balance. Not even the natural transfers of energy are 100%. Why would anybody expect human actions to do any better?

Then you have to strike a balance. Not even the natural transfers of energy are 100%. Why would anybody expect human actions to do any better?

Yes, nothing can be perfect but you have to at least try and fix things that are broken or can be improved. I know I'll never be a perfect human being, for example, but that doesn't mean its pointless to try and improve myself.

So university and college are purely for vocational gain? No need for academic study? No need to learn of philosophy, history, mathematics, literature?

When did learning and knowledge lose their value?

EDIT: And university isn't just about studying, funnily enough. Depending on where you go, you'll meet people with hugely different backgrounds, learn how to cope with a degree of autonomy, discover all manner of societies that will introduce you to theatre, martial arts, religion, politics, sport and a hundred other things.

And you may find yourself able to experiment sexually, psychotropically etc. All this is good.

So university and college are purely for vocational gain? No need for academic study? No need to learn of philosophy, history, mathematics, literature? When did learning and knowledge lose their value?
When it started to cost unreasonable amounts of money because "people with degrees earn more than those without", making it an unaffordable luxury to those who aren't making/don't expect to make an "extra" $5,000 - $20,000 per year (depending on school & program) to pay for it.
EDIT: And university isn't just about studying, funnily enough. Depending on where you go, you'll meet people with hugely different backgrounds, learn how to cope with a degree of autonomy, discover all manner of societies that will introduce you to theatre, martial arts, religion, politics, sport and a hundred other things.

And you may find yourself able to experiment sexually, psychotropically etc. All this is good. Yes, but you don't need to go to Uni to do those things. If you are insistant on diving into a multi-cultural (not just multi-ethnic) experience, you can join the Military, or the Peace Corps.

As for the Experimentation bit... when has not going to Uni ever stopped that?

When it started to cost unreasonable amounts of money because "people with degrees earn more than those without", making it an unaffordable luxury to those who aren't making/don't expect to make an "extra" $5,000 - $20,000 per year (depending on school & program) to pay for it.
Then we need to address this. Restore the value.

Then we need to address this. Restore the value.
Reduce the cost. The price goes up to meet the expected willingness/ability to pay. It's called "what the market will bear".

People really don't understand what they are getting themselves into until they graduate, then they are looking at a debt that cannot be discharged - ever - for any reason but death. Couple that with getting screwed by fluctuating interest rates on a loan that cannot be refinanced - ever - and you end up like me... with a student loan interest payment that is higher than my mortgage interest payment - for somthing of demonstrably less "value".

(I didn't go to school to "learn"... (hell, I nearly taught half of my classes - and tutored the rest) I went to school to get the peice of paper the Employment Sector & Education Salesmen told me I needed to be able to progress financially and support my wife. I got sold a bill of goods.)

A quick look at the list of majors of any college or university will show you that most of the people in these programs aren't actually being trained for any profession. Political Science, for example, doesn't teach you any skill that would make you more desireable to hire than anyone else on earth.

I say that most college students are wasting their time and money by using the following analysis:

Consider person A. Person A goes to college, majors in Sociology, and finishes in 4 years (at least a year sooner than most of his peers.) He attends a public college where the tuition is an exceptionally low $1000/semester. He sits around drinking almond mocha latte grandes, reading the New York Times, and remarking to his friends how he can't believe Bush won because no one he knows voted for him. He operates under the assumption that success is like a big equation: college education + degree = good paying job. Person A's financial situation looks something like this:

annual tuition + room & board + books and other expenses = $1,000 + $10,000 + $5,000 = $16,000 per year. This is obviously pretty low. He does this for four years, the end of which he has a $64,000 piece of paper with his name on it that confers to him all the rights, honors, and responsibilities of bachelor's degree in sociology.

He subsequently enters the labor force making $12/hour as an administrative assistant. After 9 months, he gets a job doing research for the state government, making $32,000 per year. After 4 years, he's fortunate enough to get a supervisor's position and makes a whopping $48,000 per year.

Person B went straight from high school to the labor force. She works as a secretary for one year, earning $8/hour. She then takes a new job as an administrative assistant for $12/hour in a medical office. After two years, she promotes to do more file handling and then makes $30,000 per year (approximately $15/hour). After another year, with her extensive familiarity with the company's innerworkings, she promotes again to a research job making the market median of $32,000/year. After 4 years, she is fortunate enough to get a supervisor's position and makes a whopping $48,000 per year.

Here's the difference between persons' A and B: After 4 years, Person A is $64,000 in debt and has no work experience. Person B has earned $94,000 and has 4 years of work experience. Aside from the fact that there is over $150,000 between them, people would rather hire those with actual work experience, so person B would be more marketable. Not only that, but the time Person A gets a research position, Person B already has 9 months experience doing the same sort of work.

Don't get me wrong; a college education can be beneficial--even when the field of study is something relatively useless. Nonetheless, most fields of study work against a person's financial interests and aren't worth entering into to begin with.


Ummm...... well a bachelors degree in political science would qualify you to attend law school and would also be indispensible to anyone seeking future employment in civil service. A 4 yr degree in sociology would qualify you for employment as a clinical social worker, not an administrative assistant. I'm not sure I understand how either of those degrees are "useless".

I guess I may as well throw my 2 cents in:

Before I did my Teaching diploma, I was working 4 days a week as a typesetter. I started on $10/hr, and after 2 years had worked my way up to $13 /hr (and the only reason I was on that was because I had to threaten to complain to the Union over the fact that my manager had steadfastly refused to authorise a pay increase for those 2 years even though my work output was higher than anyone else in the department).
So my 32 hour working week got me $416, or $21 632/yr.
All $$ are in NZ money btw. Times by 0.7 to get US$. Also this is before tax, so times by 0.8 (roughly) to get my take home pay. Oh, alright then I'll do it for you:
$333NZp/week ($233US); $17 300NZ p/year ($12 100US).

Straight after finishing my Diploma I accepted a teaching position and was immediately on $35 000 yr ($28 000US). Net:
$500NZ p/week ($350US); $26 000 p/year ($18 200US)

2 years later and I'm now on $44 000NZ ($30 800US) a year (about $610NZ/$430US p/week net). I then do a one-month TESOL course (teaching English as a second language), head to Hong Kong and am now teaching 10 hours a week for close on $75 000NZ ($52 500US) a year. AFTER tax.

So to sum up:

Before graduate education:
$230US p/week for 32 hours work.

After graduate education:
$1000US p/week for 20 hours work (10 hours teaching/10 hours prep).

Oh, and one more thing:
I now get 12 weeks holiday a year, as opposed to 3 weeks.


So to the original poster, could you explain again how getting a college education is a financially dumb thing to do? Because I can't quite see it myself. Guess I must be a little slow.

Actually, $10,000 for room AND board is a bit on the low side right now.

But it should be noted of course that includes all furnature, food, and other perks of living in the dorms that would have to be paid for outside.

Exactly. Thank you. It seems that the majority in this forum aren't aware that housing constitutes only the "room" part of "room and board".

So to the original poster, could you explain again how getting a college education is a financially dumb thing to do? Because I can't quite see it myself. Guess I must be a little slow.

Sure you're a bit slow ;), but no slower than 90% of other people in here who somehow completely failed to notice that I have never stated, nor would I ever suggest, that earning any college degree is a waste or time or money for everyone. My original premise, which I stand by, is that the supermajority of those who earn college degrees never put those degrees to work and would have been better off financially if they had just entered the workforce straight out of high school. People like to pick on the "soft sciences", but I think that it equally applies for the supermajority of people studying some of the "hard sciences", such as physics, astronomy, etc.

The point is, if you're studying anthropology and don't plan to be come an anthropologist, you're probably making a big mistake and headed down the wrong career path.

<snip>So to the original poster, could you explain again how getting a college education is a financially dumb thing to do? Because I can't quite see it myself. Guess I must be a little slow.

Look again at my case. My Degree cost me $160,000 in lost wages over the "dead end" $35K data analysis job I left when I was convinced that a piece of paper was somehow critical to my financial survival. Add to that the my actual out of pocket costs, totalling $36,000 (in loans) my actual cost for that piece of paper called a "Degree" is in the near neighborhood of $200,000 and climbing at a rate of $240/mo.

Tell me how, at 38, I am expected to recoup that when I make a whole $20,000/yr (and it took me 3 years to find this job)?

Unless you are particularly adept at fortelling the future, the Job Market of 4 years from now is not likely to need as many of your degree field as when you went in. Why? Because every other schmuck reading the "job forecasts" also went into that degree program. You graduate into a glutted market. If you are very lucky, you can parlez your "whatever" degree into a job you hate so you can pay the bills.

You also have the advantage of mobility and proximity to a specific job type that pays well. I cannot just take a quick hop to asia to make a packet teaching ESL. I have a family to care for.

Finally, you're trying again to compare a college gradute with no job experiance to your HS graduate with 4 years work experiance. Either base it off of both of their entries at first into the job field or give the college grade the same experiance otherwise your comparison is false.

Yes, I am comparing those two things. I have never suggested that a college graduate without work experience doesn't have an advantage over a non-college graduate without work experience. I'm not clear on why you're trying to change the variables, since the argument is that, for many, it's more financially beneficial to spend 4 years in the labor force than spend 4 years in college.


I would ask this question to you then, what is far more important, making money, but being miserable at your job for it is not what you want to do. Or making less money, but loving your job and going home happy every night? Especially as you have the next 40 years to work.

The latter, of course. But if your pursuit of a degree doesn't train you for the job you end up in any better than if you had spent those 4+ years working, it kinda defeats the purpose.

Look again at my case. My Degree cost me $160,000 in lost wages over the "dead end" $35K data analysis job I left when I was convinced that a piece of paper was somehow critical to my financial survival. Add to that the my actual out of pocket costs, totalling $36,000 (in loans) my actual cost for that piece of paper called a "Degree" is in the near neighborhood of $200,000 and climbing at a rate of $240/mo.

Tell me how, at 38, I am expected to recoup that when I make a whole $20,000/yr (and it took me 3 years to find this job)?

Unless you are particularly adept at fortelling the future, the Job Market of 4 years from now is not likely to need as many of your degree field as when you went in. Why? Because every other schmuck reading the "job forecasts" also went into that degree program. You graduate into a glutted market. If you are very lucky, you can parlez your "whatever" degree into a job you hate so you can pay the bills.

You also have the advantage of mobility and proximity to a specific job type that pays well. I cannot just take a quick hop to asia to make a packet teaching ESL. I have a family to care for.
This seems to defeat the last bit of the original posters premise. Specific vocational training has made you too narrow a worker whereas the more broadly educated philosophy/liberal arts/whatever majors can move from field to to field with ease, still benefiting statisticly in thier compensation.

I think we shouldn't allow college students to be army officers strait away it just doesn’t make sense that frontline soldiers should follow orders of someone who has never seen a battle

College Students (this should read GRADUATES, not merely "students") do not become Army Officers Straight away.

Let's take the the normative situations:

1. Enlistees

Mr. Smith enters the US Naval Bootcamp. He spends about 2 months in this boot-camp; afterwhich he could spend an additional 1-2 years in further training before being deployed to a ship with a "rate" as an E-1 to E-3 (dependant)... It will take him an additional year or more to become a non-commissioned officer (>= E-4)... He need only serve a single 4 year contract term.

2. ROTC (Reserve Officer Training Corps)

Mr. Smith is part of a ROTC program while attending college. After completion, he is opted for either Reserve or Active duty. He spent the last 4 years doing military drill while attending college. He pulls for Active duty, and is commissioned into the United States Navy as an Ensign (O-1); he may then spend an additional 2 years doing further training based on his placement in the fleet. He will act in assistant capacity to Division Officers already in the fleet: and it will likely be 1-2 years before he even gets his own division... He is required 6 years of duty....

3. OCS (Officer Candidate School)

Mr. Smith (the Enlistee) already has, or has completed his college degree while being enlisted in Active Duty in the US Navy. He applies for OCS and is accepted. He spends less than a year in school, and is commissioned an Ensign (O-1E) in the United States Navy... There is no minimal time stipulation for this one...

4. LDO (Limited Duty Officer)

Mr Smith the enlistee, spends years in the US Navy: after reaching E-7 (Chief Petty Officer) he applies for the LDO program; and is accepted. With no further training, he is commissioned an O-1E (Ensign) in the United States Navy, and is automatically elligible for Division Officer positions in the fleet. There is no minimal time stipulation for this one...

5. Warrant Officer

This is virtually identical to the LDO system; except he need only reach E-6 before eligibility for the program. And is Commissioned as a non-line Officer (Warrant) (W-2 or greater) in the US NAvy.

6. Naval Academy

Similar to ROTC, except the entire 4 year "college" experience is completely military oriented. After completion he is commissioned as an O-1 (Ensign) in the United States Navy, and is required to serve for 6 years before he is allowed to resign.

This seems to defeat the last bit of the original posters premise. Specific vocational training has made you too narrow a worker whereas the more broadly educated philosophy/liberal arts/whatever majors can move from field to to field with ease, still benefiting statisticly in thier compensation.
Actually, my degree is a "Liberal Arts" BGS (Bachelor of General Studies) with a focus on Corporate Communications/PR & a "minor" in Ethics.

Can't get much more "general" than a "communications" degree.

Actually, my degree is a "Liberal Arts" BGS (Bachelor of General Studies) with a focus on Corporate Communications/PR & a "minor" in Ethics.

Can't get much more "general" than a "communications" degree.

I'm curious if you've completed your education yet. If so, what are you up to now? If not, what sort of work are you thinking about when finished?

Hey! I was just upgraded from "somewhat deadly" to "quite deadly"! What's going on???? :)

So as not to mis-quote you, I'll include your concession that a college education can be beneficial, though not financially. I would give you that as well. But what you are not noticing is that within those four to five years, college students have bought themselves the time to fully consider perspectives and issues in the world around them. True, many of them will spend alot of that time considering the trails their hands make, but college still allows for the time and environment to interact with people from different backgrounds and different viewpoints who are all engaging in a process to make sense of the world.

Don't get me wrong; a college education can be beneficial--even when the field of study is something relatively useless. Nonetheless, most fields of study work against a person's financial interests and aren't worth entering into to begin with.

So as not to mis-quote you, I'll include your concession that a college education can be beneficial, though not financially. I would give you that as well. But what you are not noticing is that within those four to five years, college students have bought themselves the time to fully consider perspectives and issues in the world around them. True, many of them will spend alot of that time considering the trails their hands make, but college still allows for the time and environment to interact with people from different backgrounds and different viewpoints who are all engaging in a process to make sense of the world.


I respectfully disagree, and I'll use myself as an example why. When I attended undergrad, most of my classmates were, like me, white, male, in their early 20s, career-minded, educated, and of approximately the same socio-economic background. I took a few elective courses, as required by my major--I suppose that shifted the demographics for those classes slightly in that I had class with more women, but the other factors remained pretty much the same, and I really can't remember any of those classmates' names anyway so they probably didn't have a lot of influence on me. I should also point out that my collegues of different races and gender really were just "diverse" from me on the outside--we all pretty much had the same upbringing, watched the same tv shows, etc.

During school, I worked in a warehouse for a major corporation for about a year to make ends meet. The people there were all different ages and races, had all different economic situations, had all sorts of educational backgrounds, and all different experiences. One guy had been a Harlem globe-trotter in the late 70s; he was 7' tall (he always said he was 6 feet, 12 inches :)), obviously black, middle aged, had been all over the world and seen all sorts of things, and just enjoyed working there to be around people. Another gal was about 40, had two daughters, and worried excessively about the government's potential to spy on everyone. Another gal had lost her husband recently and was working to keep her mind off things. Another guy had a business degree and just realized he would prefer working with his hands.

Upon graduation, I accepted a job in San Francisco as an economist. Most of the people I went to school with who studied economics never intended to enter the field, but I did, so my major made sense for me. (incidentally, because it was a government job, I theoretically could have worked myself through the ranks after highschool and, in the 5 years it took me to graduate college, wound up in the exact same job I had anyway). I met my first Filipinos there; some of my coworkers were wealthy and drove BMWs to work; others had lots of expenses and kids and took the bus to work. Several of my coworkers were not native born and had immigrated from their various countries and cultures for various reasons. From a diversity standpoint, a far cry from my undergraduate experience.

A few years later, I decided that I wanted to be a lawyer, so I went to law school. The student body was a lot like undergrad, except that the classes were whiter, the male-female ratio was about 50-50, about 95% of us were ages 22-27, everyone had at least a bachelor's degree (of course), there were far less people who had grown up poor, and there were more people who had grown up rich. Objectively, we looked like a bunch of drones.

I finished law school, and now I deal with clients all day. My clients are a perfect cross-section of the general population; every race, background, age, gender, and socio-economic status. My job typically involves learning all sorts of things about their personal lives, their experiences, and their objectives.

I challenge you now--what you are "not noticing" is that while you keep telling yourselves that you're so diverse and have such an array of experiences and backgrounds and you're learning all these great things by being around each other and whatnot and soforth, you're surrounding yourselves, for the time-being, with people of limited viewpoints, limited experiences, and limited differences.

My question, if I had one, is what makes you think that the people you're around in college have viewpoints or backgrounds that are any more different than what you would be exposed to in the labor force?

I confess I am purely lacking knowledge regarding college education. However, cultural diversity differs from place to place, so naturally the location of the college and it's fame would play some role in that. If you compare the diversity in a Ivy League with the diversity within a community college, then your results will differ greatly. Also, whatever happened to scholarships and financial aid in college?

It just isn't mutually exclusive, most university students are in the workforce as well, doing the same kind of crap jobs that people straight out of high school are doing. They're not missing out on a whole world of employment experience, they're just working part time and probably not getting the same minor promotions.

Sure,a degree doesn't guarantee you a job, but having no degree guarantees that a lot of jobs are unavailable to you. Degrees are prerequisites for a hell of a lot of jobs, but of course you need work experience as well. A few years out of uni and you're very likely to be far better off than you would havve been otherwise.

I'm curious if you've completed your education yet. If so, what are you up to now? If not, what sort of work are you thinking about when finished?
While I have likely "completed" my extortionary schooling, I have not completed my education... I like to read.

I am currently working as the IT/Bookkeeper/Office Manager/HR/Site surveyor/Photographer/Digital image Processor/Researcher/legal analyst/PR/Marketing guy for my father's 7 employee architectural firm.

What I wanted to do was get into applied psycholinguistics/psychodynamics at the corporate/government level. What I looked fo in a job (for 3 years after graduation) was any PR/Marketing job I could start with. What I found out is that people don't hire 33 year olds with fresh degrees. While I'm sure I could have tried to go into debt for another $100K or so to get a JD - and be quite good at it when I was done - I was already in enough trouble with the banks.

At 38, I am currently trying to find enough government asses to kiss so that I might be able to get a job as a Building Inspector - or get elected Sheriff (LE Admin was my firstdegree field 20 years ago...) in some podunk. (I like podunk BTW...)

Unfortunately, while I agree with your premse, there is still one flaw. If the experience you have doesn't translate into somthing that is verifiable on a job application, it means exactly squat. Between the Military, volunteer work, my Degree, etc I have a very broad experience base. It got me a job making Coffee at a book store.

IMO it's not your degree, or even experience that gets you the job. It's how many people you know/blow and/or how good you look/sound to the HR person - who will never understand your job but somehow has the authority to pick the "right person" for it. Heaven help you if the HR person is intimidated by you background - they have a big rubber stamp for that marked OVERQUALIFIED.

IMO it's not your degree, or even experience that gets you the job. It's how many people you know/blow and/or how good you look/sound to the HR person - who will never understand your job but somehow has the authority to pick the "right person" for it.

This is in fact the way the world goes 'round. We can wish it didn't, we can pretend it isn't the way it works...but it's the truth. It's rarely what you know, it's who you know. And how good you are at pretending you know what you're doing.

A quick look at the list of majors of any college or university will show you that most of the people in these programs aren't actually being trained for any profession. Political Science, for example, doesn't teach you any skill that would make you more desireable to hire than anyone else on earth.

I say that most college students are wasting their time and money by using the following analysis:

Consider person A. Person A goes to college, majors in Sociology, and finishes in 4 years (at least a year sooner than most of his peers.) He attends a public college where the tuition is an exceptionally low $1000/semester. He sits around drinking almond mocha latte grandes, reading the New York Times, and remarking to his friends how he can't believe Bush won because no one he knows voted for him. He operates under the assumption that success is like a big equation: college education + degree = good paying job. Person A's financial situation looks something like this:

annual tuition + room & board + books and other expenses = $1,000 + $10,000 + $5,000 = $16,000 per year. This is obviously pretty low. He does this for four years, the end of which he has a $64,000 piece of paper with his name on it that confers to him all the rights, honors, and responsibilities of bachelor's degree in sociology.

He subsequently enters the labor force making $12/hour as an administrative assistant. After 9 months, he gets a job doing research for the state government, making $32,000 per year. After 4 years, he's fortunate enough to get a supervisor's position and makes a whopping $48,000 per year.

Person B went straight from high school to the labor force. She works as a secretary for one year, earning $8/hour. She then takes a new job as an administrative assistant for $12/hour in a medical office. After two years, she promotes to do more file handling and then makes $30,000 per year (approximately $15/hour). After another year, with her extensive familiarity with the company's innerworkings, she promotes again to a research job making the market median of $32,000/year. After 4 years, she is fortunate enough to get a supervisor's position and makes a whopping $48,000 per year.

Here's the difference between persons' A and B: After 4 years, Person A is $64,000 in debt and has no work experience. Person B has earned $94,000 and has 4 years of work experience. Aside from the fact that there is over $150,000 between them, people would rather hire those with actual work experience, so person B would be more marketable. Not only that, but the time Person A gets a research position, Person B already has 9 months experience doing the same sort of work.

Don't get me wrong; a college education can be beneficial--even when the field of study is something relatively useless. Nonetheless, most fields of study work against a person's financial interests and aren't worth entering into to begin with.

most people don't go to college to gain job training... most people go to college to get an education so they can be smarter (or seem smarter...) than the person competing with them for that research supervisor position. Undergraduate degrees/educations have two things (non-party-related) going for them:

a)Looks great on a resume -- this person is educated.

b)All of that broad knowledge really does help to prepare the student to govern others -- detailed thinking/analysis, the ability to research, reasoning (etc.) are fueled by a broad liberal arts education. The student is a sharpened pencil ready to make his mark on the piece of paper that is the working world.

If one wants to be trained for a certain profession, there are always tech schools. If one wants an education so he can be smarter than (and be the boss of, one day) the tech-school whiz, he goes to college and gets a Bachelor's degree (at least).

most people don't go to college to gain job training... most people go to college to get an education so they can be smarter (or seem smarter...)

That, and $3.95 will get you a mocha almond frappucino grande.


than the person competing with them for that research supervisor position.

I'd still pick the gal who has work experience.


Undergraduate degrees/educations have two things (non-party-related) going for them:

a)Looks great on a resume -- this person is educated.

Sure, it looks great compared to wasting 4 years smoking pot and twiddling your thumbs. No doubt, but it would be pretty short-sighted to dismiss someone with comparable work experience. (Someday, when you actually have work experience, you'll understand this. :))


b)All of that broad knowledge really does help to prepare the student to govern others -- detailed thinking/analysis, the ability to research, reasoning (etc.) are fueled by a broad liberal arts education.

As does work experience. Except that when you're working, you're getting paid to do it, instead of the other way around. Besides, I'm not sure how spending your days with your nose buried in books teaches you to deal with dynamic situations or how to govern others.

The student is a sharpened pencil ready to make his mark on the piece of paper that is the working world.

lol :D Awesome :) You really eat this crap up, don't you ;)

Me: "Fragland, meet World. World, Fragland."
Fragland: "Nice to meet you. I look forward to looking together."
World: "*SLAP*"

If one wants to be trained for a certain profession, there are always tech schools. If one wants an education so he can be smarter than (and be the boss of, one day) the tech-school whiz, he goes to college and gets a Bachelor's degree (at least).

Yeah, well, we'll see :) I still marvel at people's perceptions on the methods of employee selection.

College Education + Degree + submission of application = acquisition of better job?

If your answer to this last question is approximately "yes", I'm just trying to warn you that it's more about having a career plan and following it.

college is free here in wales (hehehe) unless you mean university?

College Education + Degree + submission of application = acquisition of better job?
College Education + Degree + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application + submission of application = interview... maybe.

+ promising to lick boots & paint the CEO's house and buy his gasoline for the next 10 years = job... maybe.

college is free here in wales (hehehe) unless you mean university?

Here in the U.S., the terms are used interchangably. Tuition isn't free for us, either way. Undergraduate tuition typically runs from $10,000-$30,000 per year, depending on the school, though some programs may be cheaper or costlier.

I think the question of combining university cost and lost wages is a valid point for some students to consider. Particularly those with the vague idea that college can't hurt as long as dad is paying the bill.

Hey, everybody has to be somewhere, so why not be in college? Hang out, smoke pot, and barely pass their sociology classes. Those who agree with that really should just get to work, it's far more economically advantageous. Not to mention helping dad, who has to cough up a lot of cash.

Still, for those with a plan and those dead-set on getting an education at any cost, go for it. Just recognize that even with a plan it's an expensive and risky proposition with no guarantee of lucrative employment at the end of the tunnel.

My question, if I had one, is what makes you think that the people you're around in college have viewpoints or backgrounds that are any more different than what you would be exposed to in the labor force?
Although I generally think that using one's own experience isn't a very convincing way to seal an argument, though of course it always lends something, I will respond in kind. I've been in and out of University for over a decade. In fact, I worked for many years before going for my undergrad and then again before my masters. My point is more systemic...whether you take advantage of the environment or not, Uni is one where learning and the presentation of alternate viewpoints is daily. This is not the case in a 9-5.

I think the question of combining university cost and lost wages is a valid point for some students to consider. Particularly those with the vague idea that college can't hurt as long as dad is paying the bill.

Hey, everybody has to be somewhere, so why not be in college? Hang out, smoke pot, and barely pass their sociology classes. Those who agree with that really should just get to work, it's far more economically advantageous. Not to mention helping dad, who has to cough up a lot of cash.

Still, for those with a plan and those dead-set on getting an education at any cost, go for it. Just recognize that even with a plan it's an expensive and risky proposition with no guarantee of lucrative employment at the end of the tunnel.

This is totally ridiculous... there is plenty of money out there that can be attained for university, and companies actively recruit people on campuses. I know this as a fact. My parents don't pay a dime of my university.. I have money I earned to do that (grants). It is far more economically advantageous in the end to go to university. You are a better more dynamic worker.

This is totally ridiculous... there is plenty of money out there that can be attained for university, and companies actively recruit people on campuses. I know this as a fact. My parents don't pay a dime of my university.. I have money I earned to do that (grants). It is far more economically advantageous in the end to go to university. You are a better more dynamic worker.Good for you. The only way I was able to pay for school was to through Student Loans... $36,000 of which I owe 8% on. I would owe more, but I still had time left on my GI Bill... to the tune of about $300/mo.

As a 30 y/o White Male I did not fit into any of the nice pigeonholes required to get Scholarships or Grants. Believe me, I looked.

As for Companies actively recruiting on campus? Not for "non-traditional students" they don't. I got ONE interview from an on-campus recruiter... and that was from the CIA because they knew I already had a TSBI.

This is totally ridiculous... there is plenty of money out there that can be attained for university, and companies actively recruit people on campuses. I know this as a fact. My parents don't pay a dime of my university.. I have money I earned to do that (grants). It is far more economically advantageous in the end to go to university. You are a better more dynamic worker.

If you'll note, I said: "Particularly those with the vague idea that college can't hurt as long as dad is paying the bill." Obviously not you.

I'm glad you are self-sufficient, I was as well and graduated with no debt between scholarships and very hard labor in the woods.

There were, however, a number of 'lost' students whose way was being paid by their parents. My children report the same in more recent years, even parents who buy their kids new cars while wasting time in school.

I say again, if they don't know why they're there, they might better go to work rather than take up desk space. They're money ahead.

Where I work, no one has ever become a manager who didn't have at least political science bachelor's degree, most have master's.

It's true though that there are people who don't really benefit from further schooling attending college. However, there are a lot of lines of work where if you expect advancement, you must have a degree as well as some lucrative ones that all but require advanced degrees (law and medicine.)

Where I work, no one has ever become a manager who didn't have at least political science bachelor's degree, most have master's.

It's true though that there are people who don't really benefit from further schooling attending college. However, there are a lot of lines of work where if you expect advancement, you must have a degree as well as some lucrative ones that all but require advanced degrees (law and medicine.)Which is exactly why I thought I "needed" to get my degree... and thereby lost $200,000 in wages and fees.

Getting that degree is only a guarantee of spending vast sums of money while earning less than you were otherwise, not of "advancement."

In my case, I'm getting my degree in Economics this year. I have always work and went to college at night as most of the people I know. Next year I`m going to Europe to do my Ph.D. So I will have both, work experience and a degree. It can be done with a little effort.
By the way, I`m from south america.

My two cents:

I attended a small liberal arts college for two years, did a years study abroad, and then attended a large state university. I graduated with a BS in Political Science, University of Houston, 1991.

It was my experience that a fairly large number of the students (maybe half) should not have been there, IMHO. Some students simply wanted a degree and not an education. Others wanted a set of skills that could and should have been available elsewhere. Still others were, in the words of a friend, "holding down the pause button of life". These students were at best wasting their own time and money, and at worst, disrupting the education of those who wanted to be there.

In addition, the available majors showed a remarkable number of fields of study that, again IMHO, shouldn't really be considered academic fields. Graphic design, Fashion design, fine arts, Hotel and Restaurant Management, business, and many technical subjects really have no place at a university. These subjects should be taught at technical schools, learned on the job, or taught through internships or apprenticeships.

As you might guess, I am highly in favor of stripping down modern universities to their historical roots in liberal education and the natural sciences. I also recognise this is unlikely to happen.

Society, as others have pointed out, has given certain expectations to the earning of a university diploma - that university graduates should be everything an "educated person" should be - logical, analytical, knowledgeable, etc. These expectations are unable to be met through the current system.