NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok, first things first. This isn't a gay marriage debate thread - seriously. The topic may come into it, but we can discuss without really debating it methinks.

Ok, that out of the way, this is a thread to discuss all things marriage - in a polite way. What do you believe marriage is/should be? What are your experiences with it? Do you intend to marry? Have you been married? Are all your friends getting married? And so on. =)

This was prompted by a bit of a rough patch a friend of mine is going through. He was dating a girl for about 2 years (if I remember correctly). They were dating exclusively, and, to my knowledge, are completely in love with one another. However, my friend says he does not believe in marriage, and will never get married. He feels that all relationships, however much you enjoy them, are temporary - and treats them as such. His girlfriend does want to get married eventually (although not yet). For this reason, she has decided that she cannot tie herself into an exclusive relationship with him and wants to be free to date other people (although she does not want to break ties with him, at least not yet). This has hurt his feelings and, at the moment, they aren't speaking.

I can understand where he is coming from - although I never believed that all relationships are temporary, I used to be horribly disillusioned with the idea of marriage. I was convinced that I would never, myself, marry, as I viewed the entire process as unnecessary. I have since changed that view, but I still understand how one could be disillusioned - especially with the fact that his parents rather recently went through a divorce - and were both engaged to other people by the time the ink on the divorce papers was dry.

At this point, I am dead-set on the idea of getting married, and probably relatively soon (ie. in the next five years). Basically, I think it will probably happen as soon as it is financially feasible for my boyfriend and I.

Anyways, I just rambled on and on, so other people can too! =)

They were dating exclusively, and, to my knowledge, are completely in love with one another. However, my friend says he does not believe in marriage, and will never get married. He feels that all relationships, however much you enjoy them, are temporary - and treats them as such. His girlfriend does want to get married eventually (although not yet). For this reason, she has decided that she cannot tie herself into an exclusive relationship with him and wants to be free to date other people (although she does not want to break ties with him, at least not yet). This has hurt his feelings and, at the moment, they aren't speaking.


I don't care if I'll marry someone or not but I wouldn't stay in a relationship which my partner sees as a temporary one. I know that most long term relationships/marriages don't last but I still expect that my boyfriend believes in our relationship. We've been together 4 years (lived together 2,5 years) and no plans of marriage but we're going to spend rest of our lives with each other.

I quess we will marry for financial reasons in near future (next 2 years)

nobody is going to like what I have to say. come to think of it I might not like what I have to say.
When I was growing up it was understood that the whole purpose of dating was to find someone to marry. Not that you would marry the first person you dated by the way, but that you would learn about what kind of person you wanted to marry, what qualities you wanted and so forth. Needless to say I went on a lot of first dates. (really bad first dates) for example I was a vegetarian, and this guy takes me to a steak house and then orders his meat rare, yeah I didn't stay past appetizers on that one.lol
I finally decided that I would need 3 qualities from a guy 1 NO drugs 2 has to be smarter than me so I don't get bored and 3 has a job and actually goes to work.
well I met a guy with all those 3 qualities and we got married 2 months later.
We have been married for almost 5 years and it's great :)
so I guess the long post is just a way for me to say I don't know
sorry guys

To me, Marriage is mostly veiwed as a religious or semi-religious union (whatever the sexes involved). I disagree with that on so many levels, I don't even know where to begin.

However, I was once (recently) very close to marrying someone, simply because of the way immigration laws work here. Had the relationship worked out, we would've divorced again as soon a legally feasible.

I don't support the institution in any way at all, and I dearly hope I'll never be forced by idiot xenophobic legislation to marry someone. And that's the only reason I can imagine for doing so... That or having children, but I doubt children will ever be an issue.

My boyfriend and I intend to get married, but not after we've lived together for some time (we're intending to do so in the next couple of months) - we're thinking at least a year of co-habiting before we would get engaged. The rationale is that, no matter how much we love each other, we are not 100% sure how we'd get on with each other when most of our time was together. What about this little habit that you didn't much notice before? What happens if (s)he is late home from work? Etc.

I'm not a big believer in the type of marriages one sees nowadays - get married cos you care about someone, safe in the knowledge you can get away from them via divorce if it all goes belly up. I only favour it if the two people genuinely love each other and can honestly foresee a lifetime together. At present, that describes my boyfriend and I, though as I say we want to live together before making our minds up definitively about that!

We both want the smallest wedding that we can possibly have - neither he nor I like big 'white' weddings at all - without offending immediate family (parents) and closest friends (really, really close) - maximum 12 people plus us. Ideally, it'd be just the two of us, a registrar and two random witnesses, but you have to make some sacrifices for others, I suppose.

Personally, I don't plan on ever getting married (or having children, either).
Why would I want to do that?
As a man, it just doesn't make any sense for me to get married. I'm not going to get anything out of it I can't already have (sex, companionship, etc.).
Marriage seems to me like starting a business. A partnership in which my wife owns 50% of the corporation. Yesterday, I owned a 100%, today only half.

There's a 50% chance that this biz is gonna go belly-up, and I'll have to give 50% of everything I own (plus a generous check every month if we have children, or she gets allimony). At best, I'd only have a flimsy prenup to fall back on, which would probably get trashed and disregarded in court anyway.

Does that sound like a good deal to a man? Hell no.

Marriage seems to me like starting a business. A partnership in which my wife owns 50% of the corporation. Yesterday, I owned a 100%, today only half.I do see your point here. We agreed that if we ever got married, we'd have a pre-nuptial agreement - they're currently not binding in NI, but hopefully will be by that point). Except in the case of domestic violence and/or infidelity in the case of either party, in the event of separation or divorce each party would get back what (s)he had put in (proportionally speaking). We agreed it would not be the case in the two aforementioned situations as the guilty party would deserve to be punished :)

I don't intend to have children either, by the way - in fact, the thought repels me beyond measure. The marriage would exclusively be about him and me.

I do see your point here. We agreed that if we ever got married, we'd have a pre-nuptial agreement - they're currently not binding in NI, but hopefully will be by that point). Except in the case of domestic violence and/or infidelity in the case of either party, in the event of separation or divorce each party would get back what (s)he had put in (proportionally speaking). We agreed it would not be the case in the two aforementioned situations as the guilty party would deserve to be punished :)

I don't intend to have children either, by the way - in fact, the thought repels me beyond measure. The marriage would exclusively be about him and me.
I wish you the best of luck! :) My brother's getting married next year, and I'm very happy for him (plus, I get a great sister-in-law). I'm looking forward to being "Uncle Robbie"-- the best place to be in the parenting gig, IMHO.

I don't have anything against marriage itself (I'm not an anti-institutional hippie), it just doesn't sound like a good deal to me.
I totally agree that if you violate the marriage "contract" with viloence or infidelity, you should be punished punitively for doing so.

Just get that prenup, man! ;)

My boyfriend and I intend to get married, but not after we've lived together for some time (we're intending to do so in the next couple of months) - we're thinking at least a year of co-habiting before we would get engaged. The rationale is that, no matter how much we love each other, we are not 100% sure how we'd get on with each other when most of our time was together. What about this little habit that you didn't much notice before? What happens if (s)he is late home from work? Etc.

I fully agree with this idea. I think it is a wonderful idea. My boyfriend and I have now been living together for about 2 1/2 years (in a house we bought together for almost a year) - and you do notice lots of little things that annoy you - things you have to get used to and be able to dismiss.

I'm not a big believer in the type of marriages one sees nowadays - get married cos you care about someone, safe in the knowledge you can get away from them via divorce if it all goes belly up. I only favour it if the two people genuinely love each other and can honestly foresee a lifetime together. At present, that describes my boyfriend and I, though as I say we want to live together before making our minds up definitively about that!

I also fully agree with this. =) I don't think marriage should be something you go into at all if you think it will end in divorce. Divorce may eventually become necessary, but it shouldn't be an "easy fallback".

We both want the smallest wedding that we can possibly have - neither he nor I like big 'white' weddings at all - without offending immediate family (parents) and closest friends (really, really close) - maximum 12 people plus us. Ideally, it'd be just the two of us, a registrar and two random witnesses, but you have to make some sacrifices for others, I suppose.

I want a fairly small wedding, but not that small - LOL. I want most of my extended family there, and most of my friends. I just don't want the huge deal that some people get - where they invite everyone they ever knew and spend more money than they can hope to pay back in a reasonable time.

I do see your point here. We agreed that if we ever got married, we'd have a pre-nuptial agreement - they're currently not binding in NI, but hopefully will be by that point). Except in the case of domestic violence and/or infidelity in the case of either party, in the event of separation or divorce each party would get back what (s)he had put in (proportionally speaking). We agreed it would not be the case in the two aforementioned situations as the guilty party would deserve to be punished

I understand the idea behind prenups, but I think they are a bad idea. If you go into a marriage with a prenup, you are already admitting defeat. You are already saying, "This is going to end one day, and I need to cover my butt." If you truly feel that you have to cover yourself because the other person will try and screw you over, you shouldn't be marrying them in the first place.

Marriage seems to me like starting a business. A partnership in which my wife owns 50% of the corporation. Yesterday, I owned a 100%, today only half.

LOL! This is really wrong, unless you think you are talking about marrying someone with absolutely no possessions. In the ideal case, you currently own 50% of the total (your stuff and your partner's stuff), and when you marry, you have a 50% share still by law. It may be a little off, but, like I said, unless you are marrying someone who is butt-naked and doesn't own anything at all, you don't already own 100%.

There's a 50% chance that this biz is gonna go belly-up,

If there is a 50% chance that your relationship will end (and end badly, from your description), you probably shouldn't be in the relationship at all.

Ok, first things first. This isn't a gay marriage debate thread - seriously. The topic may come into it, but we can discuss without really debating it methinks.

Ok, that out of the way, this is a thread to discuss all things marriage - in a polite way. What do you believe marriage is/should be? What are your experiences with it? Do you intend to marry? Have you been married? Are all your friends getting married? And so on. =)

This was prompted by a bit of a rough patch a friend of mine is going through. He was dating a girl for about 2 years (if I remember correctly). They were dating exclusively, and, to my knowledge, are completely in love with one another. However, my friend says he does not believe in marriage, and will never get married. He feels that all relationships, however much you enjoy them, are temporary - and treats them as such. His girlfriend does want to get married eventually (although not yet). For this reason, she has decided that she cannot tie herself into an exclusive relationship with him and wants to be free to date other people (although she does not want to break ties with him, at least not yet). This has hurt his feelings and, at the moment, they aren't speaking.

I can understand where he is coming from - although I never believed that all relationships are temporary, I used to be horribly disillusioned with the idea of marriage. I was convinced that I would never, myself, marry, as I viewed the entire process as unnecessary. I have since changed that view, but I still understand how one could be disillusioned - especially with the fact that his parents rather recently went through a divorce - and were both engaged to other people by the time the ink on the divorce papers was dry.

At this point, I am dead-set on the idea of getting married, and probably relatively soon (ie. in the next five years). Basically, I think it will probably happen as soon as it is financially feasible for my boyfriend and I.

Anyways, I just rambled on and on, so other people can too! =)
your friend has just run up against the big downside to his "ill never get married" stance. no smart, independant woman will stay with him long term. (unless she has the same anti-marriage stance). his girlfriend is right to decide to break it off with him. while she is not ready to get married now, why should she invest time, emotion, money, energy into something that can only be temporary?

"freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose" ... kris kristofferson.

Marriage is good.

Although everyone talks about the divorce rate being between 40-50% (depending on how you ask) cohabiting outside of marriage before marriage actually decreases the odds of a lifetime commitment. 80% of living together before marriage couples will end in separation. 40% before wedding, another 40 after the wedding.

Just food for thought. The old ways aren't always 'bad' ways in my mind.

If there is a 50% chance that your relationship will end (and end badly, from your description), you probably shouldn't be in the relationship at all.
Talkin' 'bout the 50%, you did get the memo about the statistics on the awful flip-the-coin success rate of marriages, right? If you were saying that if those stats are correct, you probably shouldn't get married at all, then we agree.
I'm not trying to kill your optimism, hon. You asked what my opinion was on the subject, and I was honest with you. It's a ceremony that's obviously important to you. Who knew you were so old fashioned? :D
Not so much me, as I feel I could get everything (save a few tax breaks) without going through all of the trouble, expense and risk.

Personally, I don't plan on ever getting married (or having children, either).
Why would I want to do that?
As a man, it just doesn't make any sense for me to get married. I'm not going to get anything out of it I can't already have (sex, companionship, etc.).
Marriage seems to me like starting a business. A partnership in which my wife owns 50% of the corporation. Yesterday, I owned a 100%, today only half.

There's a 50% chance that this biz is gonna go belly-up, and I'll have to give 50% of everything I own (plus a generous check every month if we have children, or she gets allimony). At best, I'd only have a flimsy prenup to fall back on, which would probably get trashed and disregarded in court anyway.

Does that sound like a good deal to a man? Hell no.
pre-nups are for people who already have something valuable to protect. that doesnt pertain to most people in first marriages.

you must have some wicked good stuff if you are so rich that no matter what your imagined wife would bring to the marriage it would be essentially worthless in comparison.

I understand the idea behind prenups, but I think they are a bad idea. If you go into a marriage with a prenup, you are already admitting defeat. You are already saying, "This is going to end one day, and I need to cover my butt." If you truly feel that you have to cover yourself because the other person will try and screw you over, you shouldn't be marrying them in the first place.

Im not sure about how this works in US law tbh.
But, my mum and my stepdad both have their own business (1 person each) and they got a prenup to make sure that the other partner doesnt loose everything when either goes bankrupt. Unlikely to happen, since theyre both good at what they do, but in this case you really want to be safe instead of sorry.
You shouldnt get a prenup just to "protect your share" but i can sorta understand when one of the partners has a lot more stuff then the other.



Not sure if i'll ever get married, maybe if i run into the right woman i will, but maybe even when i meet her we wont get married.

Forgot: I see marriage as a way for a couple to say too eachother that they want to grow old together. I wish every marriage could last, but i understand that sometimes divorce is the best (only) option.

My parents divorced when i was 10, and even then i saw that it was the best option in their case. I'm very happy that they can still get along with eachother. Call on their birthdays, come to mine, my brothers and my sisters birthdays at the same time. They even go camping once a year with a group of mutual friends.

edit2: <grumble> stupid quote system

pre-nups are for people who already have something valuable to protect. that doesnt pertain to most people in first marriages.

you must have some wicked good stuff if you are so rich that no matter what your imagined wife would bring to the marriage it would be essentially worthless in comparison.
I'm 28, single and without children. I guess that has put me in a situation where I may have more savings and personal assets than the typical first-marriage person (maybe even couple).
I'm not rich, but I do have more to bring to a relationship than most women I meet (although I don't care about that in the least).
I think I would feel more comfortable with the marriage option if things were more balanced between us. Who knows? I'm just having a good time playing the field right now, and marriage is the furthest thing from my mind at the moment.

I wish everyone lots of luck who chooses to go down that path. :)

I'm 28, single and without children. I guess that has put me in a situation where I may have more savings and personal assets than the typical first-marriage person (maybe even couple).
I'm not rich, but I do have more to bring to a relationship than most women I meet (although I don't care about that in the least).
I think I would feel more comfortable with the marriage option if things were more balanced between us. Who knows? I'm just having a good time playing the field right now, and marriage is the furthest thing from my mind at the moment.

I wish everyone lots of luck who chooses to go down that path. :)
im not saying that i think you SHOULD get married. that would be a silly thing to suggest. but i do wonder why you dont ever date women "like you" who are single, no children and making good money.

Like a lot of poeple my age, I can't really imagine getting married. Christ, I can't really get my social life in order at all, and tend to find myself with women who are not, you might say, the marrying type (see the "sex life" thread.) But I do think I would like to have kids one day, so I'm sure I will take the plunge eventually. Most of the men I know didn't get married until their late 30s, so i have a decade and a half to figure that stuff out I suppose.

Since it seems we are only talking about the legal part I might someday, but most likely just for the tax breaks and easier to live together sort of way. I mean other than that it's just a piece of paper. I mean if someone's gonna leave you or make you want to leave them either way if it's not gonna work out, it's not gonna work out.

Unfortunately I think I've noticed in America we have an attitude in our relationships that if it's not working out or not perfect to just walk away. Even my friends when I ask them for advice about a guy they're usual response is just let so and so go...or they're plenty others out there or whatever. Frustrating, but you can't force people to stick with you either :rolleyes:

Since it seems we are only talking about the legal part I might someday, but most likely just for the tax breaks and easier to live together sort of way. I mean other than that it's just a piece of paper. I mean if someone's gonna leave you or make you want to leave them either way if it's not gonna work out, it's not gonna work out.

Unfortunately I think I've noticed in America we have an attitude in our relationships that if it's not working out or not perfect to just walk away. Even my friends when I ask them for advice about a guy they're usual response is just let so and so go...or they're plenty others out there or whatever. Frustrating, but you can't force people to stick with you either :rolleyes:
Unless your taxable income is through the roof, I seriously doubt the tax breaks save you more money than a divorce would cost you.

And as far as walking away from things goes, if you don't have kids with someone and don't plan on spending a lifetime with them, I don't see the point in playing marriage with someone that doesn't make you happy. People take these kinds of transitory relationships too seriously.

Marriage is a sure-fire way to ruin a perfectly good relationship. :(

hopefully no hormone fueled teenagers will post in this thread. Wait... maybe I shouldn't have posted that. (I'm 15)

Marriage is a sure-fire way to ruin a perfectly good relationship. :(
So I've heard. I've also seen it firsthand with members of my family. Expecially the men, who (from experience) would be glad to tell you just how much they lost with each divorce they suffered through.

Again, I just don't see what fantastic magic it could bring to a relationship that's doing fine as it is.
EDIT: IT's funny how the views here seem to follow what I initially said-- It's just not as attractive of an option for the men. How many women have you heard from so far with serious apprehensions about marriage?

In my opinion, marriage serves two purposes:

1. It's a statement of unconditional love to your partner, showing them that you are willing (and hopefully eager) to bind yourselves together as one entity in the eyes of the law (and the eyes of your god, if you're into that sorta thing).

2. It's a finacially and emotionally stable environment in which to raise your offspring.

I am an intensely relationship minded guy. I believe in absolute monogomy, even if I'm "only dating", and I don't believe is sex without at least a little bit of love. Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way religious or into all that "family values" crap, I just happen to be old fashioned when it comes to dating.

And no, I'm not an old fogie either. I happen to be in my early twenties thank you very much.

I have nothing against marriage or children, and if the right person comes along, I'd be willing to have both. And living where I live, I can.

So I've heard. I've also seen it firsthand with members of my family. Expecially the men, who (from experience) would be glad to tell you just how much they lost with each divorce they suffered through.

Again, I just don't see what fantastic magic it could bring to a relationship that's doing fine as it is.
Marriage is a quasi-religious institution designed to prevent men from leaving a woman with small children to care for and no means of support. With the rise in two-income families, the recognition by the law of the responsibility both parties bear for children, etc., I seriously question whether marriage as an institution is going to survive. I personally favor a contractual relationship where the duties, privileges and responsibilities of both parties are clearly spelled out.

And as far as walking away from things goes, if you don't have kids with someone and don't plan on spending a lifetime with them, I don't see the point in playing marriage with someone that doesn't make you happy. People take these kinds of transitory relationships too seriously.

But thats what I was referring to someone who you want to remain with, but people seem lazy to work things out. And some other people say if you want to change one thing about someone don't marry them. But that seems ridiculous...I hardly believe I'm going to find someone perfect. Working on things helps people become closer.

Well, on my fathers side of the family, are a bunch of Italians that have been married for 50 years +, and the same goes for the Southerners on my mothers side. Of course there are those who have struggled, but for the most part my family members are all happily married, and I hope to follow down that path eventually.

Marriage is a quasi-religious institution designed to prevent men from leaving a woman with small children to care for and no means of support.
Actually, I think it's a vestige of the idea that a man owned his woman, and any man who tried to have sex with her would face his wrath. That's not to say that it doesn't serve purposes today.

your friend has just run up against the big downside to his "ill never get married" stance. no smart, independant woman will stay with him long term. (unless she has the same anti-marriage stance). his girlfriend is right to decide to break it off with him. while she is not ready to get married now, why should she invest time, emotion, money, energy into something that can only be temporary?

Oh, I completely agree - and I told her so. It was hard for her to do, but she can't tie herself down into a relationship that he has point-blank told her isn't going to progress from there.

I just feel bad for both of them - because they are both hurting right now.



Eichen - The fact that 50% of marriages end in divorce applies to the totality of marriage. That 50% figure will not apply for every marriage, or every relationship. If the relationship someone is personally in has a 50% chance of ending, they probably shouldn't be in it at all.

I have nothing against marriage or children, and if the right person comes along, I'd be willing to have both. And living where I live, I can.

=)

Can I be a bridesmaid?

Edit: Or, erm, "groomsmaid", as it were.

By official engagement, what do you mean? Like...my boyfriend and I do plan on getting married, we just haven't set a wedding date, and I still await my ring :D

=)
Can I be a bridesmaid?
Edit: Or, erm, "groomsmaid", as it were.

I'm afraid I can't promise anything, but why not? I do have friends that have first dibs, though.

Since we're talking mostly about money, here's something else:

I was never really into marriage. I couldn't really see what the difference was to just a normal satble relationship. It certainly made no difference to my faithfulnes etc. not being marrier. So I was quite surprised that after the wedding there was a different feeling towards my new wife - it felt like I had fallen freshly in love :) Five years on and we are still happily married.

I have a mostly cynical outlook on life, but I decided not to do a prenuptial agreement. Firstly, I hated the idea of contemplating the end of the marriage bfore the wedding and secondly by German law all assets I bring into the marriage (and I had a lot more than my wife) stay mine exculsively. Only what we accumulate during the marriage would have to be shared.

I am very much convinced that our marriage will succeed. We were a couple for 8 years before we got wed and came through a major crisis. Since marrying we had a few hard times as well, which we coped with well. So I'm pretty certain that we can deal with all the other stuff coming our way!

By official engagement, what do you mean? Like...my boyfriend and I do plan on getting married, we just haven't set a wedding date, and I still await my ring :D
That's a pretty good way to buy some time and shut you up.

By official engagement, what do you mean? Like...my boyfriend and I do plan on getting married, we just haven't set a wedding date, and I still await my ring :D

I guess I meant that you have gotten engaged (which usually involves the ring) and have announced that fact to the world at large (which might just be your family and friends).

My boyfriend and I fully intend to marry eventually - we have talked about it, but we aren't officiall engaged. ((I'm still waiting on my ring too. =)

I have been married for just over 6 years to the most wonderful man, who is also my best friend. He is truly my soulmate and I am SO lucky to share my life with him! We can share anything with each other and are honest with each other about EVERYTHING....in fact, if I ask him "Do I look fat in this?", I expect an honest response and he gives it to me and I DON'T HOLD IT AGAINST HIM....I look at it this way, if the man that loves me thinks that I look fat in something, then chances are the rest of the world will, too...so I'll change and thank him for being honest!! :) We have a strong marriage and every day I thank God for bringing him into my life!! :)

:(
My choice isn't really up there. I'm not sure whether I want to get married, since it would depend on finding the right person, and I'm not really ruling it out either. So I said I want to marry Myrth...

I may eventually consider it... if I find a guy who wants to do the same. I'm going out with the sweetest guy and we consider each other boyfriends. But marriage... well he's not out to his family...

I'll consider it if the voters get a clue. IF not, I'll go to Spain.

Ok, first things first. This isn't a gay marriage debate thread - seriously. The topic may come into it, but we can discuss without really debating it methinks.

Ok, that out of the way, this is a thread to discuss all things marriage - in a polite way. What do you believe marriage is/should be? What are your experiences with it? Do you intend to marry? Have you been married? Are all your friends getting married? And so on. =)

This was prompted by a bit of a rough patch a friend of mine is going through. He was dating a girl for about 2 years (if I remember correctly). They were dating exclusively, and, to my knowledge, are completely in love with one another. However, my friend says he does not believe in marriage, and will never get married. He feels that all relationships, however much you enjoy them, are temporary - and treats them as such. His girlfriend does want to get married eventually (although not yet). For this reason, she has decided that she cannot tie herself into an exclusive relationship with him and wants to be free to date other people (although she does not want to break ties with him, at least not yet). This has hurt his feelings and, at the moment, they aren't speaking.

I can understand where he is coming from - although I never believed that all relationships are temporary, I used to be horribly disillusioned with the idea of marriage. I was convinced that I would never, myself, marry, as I viewed the entire process as unnecessary. I have since changed that view, but I still understand how one could be disillusioned - especially with the fact that his parents rather recently went through a divorce - and were both engaged to other people by the time the ink on the divorce papers was dry.

At this point, I am dead-set on the idea of getting married, and probably relatively soon (ie. in the next five years). Basically, I think it will probably happen as soon as it is financially feasible for my boyfriend and I.

Anyways, I just rambled on and on, so other people can too! =)


Well, your friend is an asshole, that's for sure. How she can love a man who jus tsees her as a temporary fling is beyond everything. She should dump him asap and find a man that _really_ loves her and doesn't pretend, like your friend.

Marriage is a quasi-religious institution designed to prevent men from leaving a woman with small children to care for and no means of support. With the rise in two-income families, the recognition by the law of the responsibility both parties bear for children, etc., I seriously question whether marriage as an institution is going to survive. I personally favor a contractual relationship where the duties, privileges and responsibilities of both parties are clearly spelled out.
im thinking that without marriage the family becomes an independant woman and her children with the men living on the sidelines uncaredfor and unloved except when they are needed for procreation.

married men live longer happier lives than single men. i dont see them giving that up to be shunted off to the side like a male elephant. the big smart buff guys would get all the sex and the average and below average men would be limited to what they could get off drunk women at the bar.

im thinking that without marriage the family becomes an independant woman and her children with the men living on the sidelines uncaredfor and unloved except when they are needed for procreation.

married men live longer happier lives than single men. i dont see them giving that up to be shunted off to the side like a male elephant. the big smart buff guys would get all the sex and the average and below average men would be limited to what they could get off drunk women at the bar.There's a slight trend in Germany for couples not to marry and still be a family, so there actually are unmarried men that aren't single...

Well, your friend is an asshole, that's for sure. How she can love a man who jus tsees her as a temporary fling is beyond everything. She should dump him asap and find a man that _really_ loves her and doesn't pretend, like your friend.

Seriously, English is your friend.

He loves her and I never said he "just sees her as a temporary fling." He is disilliusioned with relationships in general and thinks that they are all temporary - not in that he's just waiting for the time to dump her - but in that he thinks all relationships eventually fail.

I don't share his viewpoint, but I hardly think him an "asshole" for having a different view. Interestingly enough, she doesn't see him that way either. Methinks you might want to save judgement for people you actually know.

We will be celebrating our thirtieth wedding anniversary this year, thirty years of a complex, challenging, and satisfying relationship. A life shared together with someone I love, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Commitment is a misunderstood and under-utilized word, and those who can't apply it should tread carefully. Divorce should be viewed as an undesireable option - like amputation, done as a last resort only to save the life of the patient - not a parachute. Only the committed - or the lucky - remain happily married.

In my view, love is what binds spouses together - and this is not the same as 'in love', the sort that drives one to marriage in the first place. One has to be able to love the other person even when they are being unlikeable in our eyes, and not become frustrated with the relationship when things don't go as expected.

Best wishes to all who are committed enough to their partner to make this leap of faith.

Ok, first things first. This isn't a gay marriage debate thread - seriously. The topic may come into it, but we can discuss without really debating it methinks.

*snip for length*
I've never been particularly interested in marriage, though I've also never had any particular objection to it. I think I could live a happy, fulfilling life that never included marriage, and I don't think I would regret it. On the other hand, I find many aspects of life-long partnership very appealing, and my current relationship has got me thinking about the potential for such an arrangement.

However, current events in my home country (America) have started to change my feelings on the subject. The word "marriage" is, in my opinion, a pretty shameful term at this point. The institution of marriage as we know it was founded as a horribly unequal and disgusting practice, a form of warm and fuzzy slavery that further enforced some very dishonorable and pathetic values. It started to improve over recent history, but is now heading right back down into the gutter we pulled it from; people "defend" marriage as being purely about the insertion of a penis into a vagina for the purpose of baby-production, and our leaders leap at the chance to remove any trace of love, honor, or companionship from marriage itself.

I'm told that marriage is about subverting yourselves to make way for traditional gender roles and ineffective family structures invented in the middle of last century. I'm told marriage has something to do with various people's imaginary sky daddy/mommy/puppy, and that "real" marriage can't include mixed race couples, gay couples, atheist couples, or any combination of people that don't follow a very special set of rules for pleasing the imaginary sky friends. I'm told that marriage is about what sort of genitals you've got and what sort your partner has, and how you plan to stick those genitals together to produce good white Christian, er, Judeo-Christian, babies. I'm told that having babies is an essential part of marriage, rather than a potential undertaking for you and your spouse to decide on by yourselves, and that people who marry but don't make babies aren't "really" married.

That all sounds sick, stupid, and shameful to me. I would never degrade myself, my lover, or our relationship by entering into such a disgusting union.

However, my parents (who I deeply love and respect) will be celebrating 30 years of marriage next summer, and if "marriage" could carry the meaning they have given it then you could sign me right up!

i would never let any political opportunist or religious fundamentalist degrade my marriage with their sickening definitions.

<snip>

I'm told that marriage is about subverting yourselves to make way for traditional gender roles and ineffective family structures invented in the middle of last century. I'm told marriage has something to do with various people's imaginary sky daddy/mommy/puppy, and that "real" marriage can't include mixed race couples, gay couples, atheist couples, or any combination of people that don't follow a very special set of rules for pleasing the imaginary sky friends. I'm told that marriage is about what sort of genitals you've got and what sort your partner has, and how you plan to stick those genitals together to produce good white Christian, er, Judeo-Christian, babies. I'm told that having babies is an essential part of marriage, rather than a potential undertaking for you and your spouse to decide on by yourselves, and that people who marry but don't make babies aren't "really" married.

That all sounds sick, stupid, and shameful to me. I would never degrade myself, my lover, or our relationship by entering into such a disgusting union.

However, my parents (who I deeply love and respect) will be celebrating 30 years of marriage next summer, and if "marriage" could carry the meaning they have given it then you could sign me right up!

My view was that our marriage was our deal, and other than where the legal system infringed upon it society had nothing to say.

As it happens, we readily embraced Christian marriage values. But our choice, we didn't do this because someone else said so. I think it a very poor idea to not craft your own definition of how you plan to be married to each other, and what meaning marriage has to you.

In other words, why let society ruin a perfectly good marriage? Choose your own arrangement.

You have a great example at home, Bottle. Can you draw lessons from your parents successfull marriage while rejecting items you don't feel appropriate for yourself?

Engaged. :)

My view was that our marriage was our deal, and other than where the legal system infringed upon it society had nothing to say.

As it happens, we readily embraced Christian marriage values. But our choice, we didn't do this because someone else said so. I think it a very poor idea to not craft your own definition of how you plan to be married to each other, and what meaning marriage has to you.

In other words, why let society ruin a perfectly good marriage? Choose your own arrangement.

You have a great example at home, Bottle. Can you draw lessons from your parents successfull marriage while rejecting items you don't feel appropriate for yourself?

Note: Not directed at you.

Why let christians decide what marriage is? What if I decide to mary a guy that I'm deeply in love with it? I can't because some other people don't think it is up to their ridiculous "marriage values". This is my life, not yours.

Edit: I deeply apologize that I misread your post and thought that you were posting against it. Again I'm sorry.

im thinking that without marriage the family becomes an independant woman and her children with the men living on the sidelines uncaredfor and unloved except when they are needed for procreation.

married men live longer happier lives than single men. i dont see them giving that up to be shunted off to the side like a male elephant. the big smart buff guys would get all the sex and the average and below average men would be limited to what they could get off drunk women at the bar.
LOL! I would say that's a rather jaundiced and cynical viewpoint. There's a pretty fair-sized body of statistics which indicates that the children raised by both parents are, on average, more stable emotionally and psychologically.

I'm not saying that no one should get married, all I'm saying is that it's not for everyone ... including, apparently, me.

Why let christians decide what marriage is? What if I decide to mary a guy that I'm deeply in love with it? I can't because some other people don't think it is up to their ridiculous "marriage values". This is my life, not yours.

The OP specifically asked not to discuss gay marriage. One of my points is that I think people should not accept societal values without question, nor reject them - I am in no way advocating one type of marriage over another, but my choice works well for me.

I'm big on commitment, and it's hard to be committed to standards defined by others. I'd offer the same thought to you if/when marriage becomes possible for you.

Personally, I have no plans of marriage, at least for the forseeable future.

There are three options the state could take in regard to marriage, in my opinion (from best to worst):

1. Recognize all marriages between legal, consenting adults regardless of sexual orientation (in my opinion, the best option). It's time we moved beyond antiquated ideas and embraced true equality for the marriages of all people.

2. Give same sex couples equal rights, but refrain from calling it marriage. Then, once people have become more receptive to same-sex marriage, shift it to that and eliminate the distinction. This would be a middle of the road option for places where the primary opposition stems from calling it marriage rather than the benefits.

3. Don't recognize same-sex marriage. However, the state must stop recognizing heterosexual marriages as well and eliminate all of the government benefits and privileges for married couples. Then, it's entirely up to the religious institutions and individuals, and the state has no say in it whatsoever.

Why let christians decide what marriage is?Because they were the first ones to ask "Why let the village wise-women/village elders/families/oracle decide?" [/sarcasm]
Marriage was around before Christianity. In fact, it only truly became a Christian ceremony during the Middle Ages, when the Church saw the power it could have by shifting the wedding ceremony from the public square to the churches that now bordered them.

The OP specifically asked not to discuss gay marriage.

Discussion is fine. I simply didn't want this thread to become a big argument over gay marriage, as I want it to encompass all the aspects of marriage.

Interestingly, when I read that you had adopted the Christian values of marriage for yourself, the idea of gay marriage didn't enter into my head. As a Christian, my view of marriage has nothing to do with gender of the persons involved and everything to do with love between two persons who have pledged to spend their lives with one another.

One of my points is that I think people should not accept societal values without question, nor reject them - I am in no way advocating one type of marriage over another, but my choice works well for me.

I'm big on commitment, and it's hard to be committed to standards defined by others. I'd offer the same thought to you if/when marriage becomes possible for you.

I think this is a wonderful statement. Marriage is going to mean something at least slightly different to all of us. To some, it obviously sounds like hell. To some, it is a stable environment to raise children. To some, it is a legal issue. To some, it is a bond of love. And the same mold won't work for everyone, but we can all examine each other's ideas of the institution and figure out what works best for us.

The OP specifically asked not to discuss gay marriage. One of my points is that I think people should not accept societal values without question, nor reject them - I am in no way advocating one type of marriage over another, but my choice works well for me.

I'm big on commitment, and it's hard to be committed to standards defined by others. I'd offer the same thought to you if/when marriage becomes possible for you.

I happen to be homosexual and I answered the question. Don't order me not to. My life isn't up for christians to decide. I should be allowed to marry. I can most certainly be committed to my boyfriend and I most definitely am.

I'm not saying that no one should get married, all I'm saying is that it's not for everyone ... including, apparently, me.

You're not alone in that, Eutrusca. (As I posted in a different thread) Having myself been married, I can attest to believe that marriage is nothing more than a piece of paper. In all honesty, for a woman to freely spend her life with me is more meaningful and shows more commitment than the woman that signs a contract. A woman that is / was committed to me, even when I royally screw up (and I do believe there are limits to how big a screw-up can be before it's expected for her to leave), will have a stronger relationship than one that's with me after I royally screw up because of some legal document she signed. And when the going gets tough, many times that's all that keeps a marriage together. The idea that divorce is wrong.

And believe me, I know about signing contracts devoting your life to someone / something.

For the person who made the comments about living together (sorry, I don't know how to quote), check your statistics. They are generally put out by the Catholic church and are very skewed.

I strongly agree with living together before marriage because it really helps you find out if this is the person you are meant to be with. There's even a famous quote "Come, live with me, and you'll know me."

I am happily married to my husband, completely non religious, but I believe that marriage is more than a legal contract or a piece of paper. It's a promise to love, honour, and cherish for a lifetime. It's truly the final commitment that you can make to each other, and it was a very emotional day for both of us.

Our relationship has improved so much since our wedding day- we truly are partners in life and love.

Marriage isn't for everyone, but for us, there was no substitute.

You're not alone in that, Eutrusca. (As I posted in a different thread) Having myself been married, I can attest to believe that marriage is nothing more than a piece of paper. In all honesty, for a woman to freely spend her life with me is more meaningful and shows more commitment than the woman that signs a contract.

To most people, the piece of paper - the contract - has little if anything to do with what marriage is. In fact, for most, having someone freely spend their life with another with a committment even with screw-ups is exactly what marriage is.

I wish you the best of luck! :) My brother's getting married next year, and I'm very happy for him (plus, I get a great sister-in-law).Thank you, and all the best to you too - and your brother and soon-to-be sister-in law :)

I fully agree with this idea...I also fully agree with this. =)Thank you; you're clearly a very sensible woman :)

I understand the idea behind prenups, but I think they are a bad idea. If you go into a marriage with a prenup, you are already admitting defeat. You are already saying, "This is going to end one day, and I need to cover my butt." If you truly feel that you have to cover yourself because the other person will try and screw you over, you shouldn't be marrying them in the first place.I do see what you mean, but speaking from my own personal situation, it's not that either of us expect the other to screw up, or even think it's a real possibility. My boyfriend and I are especially pragmatic and rational people and thus both of our minds seem programmed to cover all possible eventualities, however infinitesimal the odds. I certainly have no doubt that we can be together for the rest of our lives, and neither does he (judging by his behaviour and the way he talks about our future together :)). However, we're both of the opinion that people and/or circumstances can change despite everyone's best efforts, and that such situations may give cause for concern in the future. Neither of us genuinely foresee any such circumstances, but we can't see in to the future.

One of the happiest couples I've ever known recently split up. They were the last couple I would ever have expected this to happen to. As I say, despite the best intentions and efforts of those concerned, sadly things like this can happen, even if they seem exceptionally unlikely.

But yeah, I do see your point. Pre-nups are definitely not everyone's cup of tea, and I completely understand that.

To most people, the piece of paper - the contract - has little if anything to do with what marriage is. In fact, for most, having someone freely spend their life with another with a committment even with screw-ups is exactly what marriage is. Again, we are in agreement :)

I felt the same way about prenups until someone suggested I think of them like insurance. We pay hundreds of dollars a year for car/house/fire insurance, not because we are expecting something bad to happen, but in case it does.

In most cases, nothing ever happens so the insurance was useless. But when something bad does happen- you are very glad that it was there. A prenup is just basically marriage insurance, in case something does happen. People change.

My husband and I don't have a prenup, but that's because neither of us owned anything significant individually. Everything we have, we have together.

I don't think that Marriage is just a piece of paper. Oprah claims that she doesn't need to marry her long time beau because she knows she couldn't love him anymore, but if that's the case, why not do it.

I know I don't need a piece of paper, and a ring to tell somebody that I love them, but I want to make sure I take every step I can so they never doubt it. Getting married is just another step in showing somebody how much you love them, and if I can make my significant other feel like I love them that much more, well then I see no problem with it.

im thinking that without marriage the family becomes an independant woman and her children with the men living on the sidelines uncaredfor and unloved except when they are needed for procreation.

It never ceases to surprise me when I see traditionalists insisting on patriarchy-based family structure while simultaneously bashing all men everywhere.

Do you really think men are so worthless that women have no reason to live with them or love them? Do you really believe marriage between men and women only exists and succeeds when women are forced into it out of necessity? Do you really think that strong, independent, intelligent women will reject all men out of hand, because a woman who doesn't require male support or sperm will find nothing of interest in any male human?

Here's a thought: I'm a relatively strong and independent woman, with no interest in procreation, and for some oddball reason I find myself deeply involved with one of the loathsome male creatures for which I have no use. It's odd, but I have found many males to actually be interesting and worthwhile beings with whom I associate for reasons other than supporting me financially or making babies for me.


married men live longer happier lives than single men. i dont see them giving that up to be shunted off to the side like a male elephant.

I don't see them having a choice, if your thesis is correct...or are you suggesting that women should be FORCED to marry the men who you assert serve no purpose other than sperm donation? Or should women simply be denied access to education and careers of their own, so that their forced helplessness will drive them to put up with otherwise useless men?


the big smart buff guys would get all the sex and the average and below average men would be limited to what they could get off drunk women at the bar.
Yeah, because "average and below average" men are universally so pathetic that they resort to drugging women for sex. I guess in your world only the very best of all men are worthy of sex with even the lowliest of women. No average man could ever hope to attract a woman of any kind, unless he first gets her intoxicated, because men are just so durn worthless.

And, of course, all women everywhere will be happy to share the few choice males among them (for sperm donation purposes only) because they aren't actually interested in spending time with anything that's got a penis. And women don't enjoy sex at all; women won't miss sex because they only use it to bribe hubby with a snog when they want him to do some chores around the house, or to get preggers with the babies that all women want to have.

Also, all women are attracted to exactly the same thing in men, because "women" function as a collective mind rather than as several billion individuals who happen to share a few biological traits in common.

Frankly, I don't care why people get married or to whom. Marry for convenience, love, money, or lust. I don't care.

I don't care if you marry three goats and a picture of Robin Williams.

Nothing you can do will change my relationship with my wife and what you do is none of my business. So ... do what thou wilt.

I really don't know. I think that if I found a guy I didn't want to let go of I would want to marry him. I certainly want a wedding which is very different from a marriage(no posts about how materialistic I am please!), this sounds strange but some of ye might know what I mean.

At the moment I am only 20. I have always been highly ambitous-putting my goals before any relationship I previously have had-again I'm not self centered I just haven't met any one who means that much to me. Up until very recently I did not want to have kids. I have a little sister who I adore but is 11 years younger than me, I realised when I was about 12 how hard it is to raise kids and I don't think I would be a good mother-I'm slightly afraid I will be like my mother who wasn't bad I just remember her being very cross all the time and not well cuddling and playing with me as much as my friends parents. While every other girl my age saw babies and went gaga I sat there and never felt a thing, that changed about 5 weeks ago. Its freaking me out that maybe someday in the very very very very distant future I may perhaps want kids and to be married.

Marriage is something that you can't enter into lightly. A few friends of mine are married or getting married and to be honest I can't see it lasting. People today inclusing myself have a tendency to rely on the 'there always is divorce' option.

Marriage is something that you can't enter into lightly. A few friends of mine are married or getting married and to be honest I can't see it lasting. People today inclusing myself have a tendency to rely on the 'there always is divorce' option.

So? Let them. It doesn't cost you anything.

So? Let them. It doesn't cost you anything.


Oh I know. I'm just giving my opinion. I don't begrudge them, even if it sounds like I do.

80% of living together before marriage couples will end in separation. 40% before wedding, another 40 after the wedding.


So, what you are saying is: if you live together BEFORE you married, you are less likely to have a disintgrating marriage. 40% for the cohabiting, versus 50% for the non-cohabiting?

And it's crap about 40% of those relationships decaying before wedding.... since most people date before they even think about commitment, surely somewhere in the ballpark of 90-99% of all relationships 'end in separation' before marriage?

It is hypocrisy to compare the two sets of statistics, but ONLY to include the pre-marriage statistics from ONE grouping.

3 weeks from tomorrow i will br marrying , who i consider to be the sweetest girl on this earth. i couldnt have asked for a better one than her. i will be with her til i draw my last breath. i believe first and foremost the key to a successful marriage is a strong faith in God, having the same beliefs and values. every relationship has problems ,no doubt but put God first before Anything and the marriage will last for life.

3 weeks from tomorrow i will br marrying , who i consider to be the sweetest girl on this earth. i couldnt have asked for a better one than her. i will be with her til i draw my last breath. i believe first and foremost the key to a successful marriage is a strong faith in God, having the same beliefs and values. every relationship has problems ,no doubt but put God first before Anything and the marriage will last for life.
Congrats on your impending wedding!

However, I must take serious issue with your last couple of sentences: I think 90% of what is wrong with marriage these days is that people think there is a simple fix. People think they just have to figure out "the key" for making marriage work. Every marriage is different, and what works for one marriage will be death to another. For instance, my parents' almost-30-year marriage would have collapsed instantly if either one of them suggested putting God ahead of their relationship and their family. You shouldn't be going into marriage with the idea that there is one thing (or even one neat list of things) that all couples can do to make a marriage always work...marriage isn't ever going to be that simple, and if you really think it is then you aren't ready for marriage in the first place.

I'm having the fun of an international wedding, so I'm getting to see an awful lot of what goes on in weddings and wedding traditions in the US through the eyes of my fiancee who is approching this from her perspective as Japanese.

Which could be why the both of us are getting ready to say screw this and just running down to Vegas an getting married by Elvis.

For the both of us, different in culture or not, marriage has some advantages. Immigration to each other's countries, fiscal, tradition, culture, and the like. For the both of us, it is also an outward sign of a promise already made.

Since in Japan, marriage is NOT religious, she cannot really understand WHY the ceremony has to be conducted the was it has to in the US, and I personally feel that God will bless our union no matter where or who actually marries us. So the religious aspect of marriage doesn't really apply to us, it is really just a way of stating that we are together and we plan to be so till death. And being married means, I think, that you try to work a little bit harder. You can't just walk out as easily as you can from a dating relationship.

So we'll see what happens, ne?

eventually, in a long long time, i do think i wanna get married,
but ladies, until than i'm up for a good time ;) :fluffle: :D

Congrats on your impending wedding!

However, I must take serious issue with your last couple of sentences: I think 90% of what is wrong with marriage these days is that people think there is a simple fix. People think they just have to figure out "the key" for making marriage work. Every marriage is different, and what works for one marriage will be death to another. For instance, my parents' almost-30-year marriage would have collapsed instantly if either one of them suggested putting God ahead of their relationship and their family. You shouldn't be going into marriage with the idea that there is one thing (or even one neat list of things) that all couples can do to make a marriage always work...marriage isn't ever going to be that simple, and if you really think it is then you aren't ready for marriage in the first place.

I couldn't agree more with your statement and advice. In my experience, having strong and shared core beliefs was a strength. What appears to be simplistic can actually provide a strong foundation when jointly agreed upon. Nonetheless, your advice is astute.

I couldn't agree more with your statement and advice. In my experience, having strong and shared core beliefs was a strength. What appears to be simplistic can actually provide a strong foundation when jointly agreed upon. Nonetheless, your advice is astute.
There are plenty of things that TEND to help relationships thrive, but I have found exceptions to every rule...except the rule that every relationship is different :).

I have been married, but I am now divorced. I may marry again. 1 vote 0.99%


Out of 101 votes I am the only one. :(

I have been married, but I am now divorced. I may marry again. 1 vote 0.99%


Out of 101 votes I am the only one. :(
You know, in a way that is the most encouraging thing I've read on this thread...somebody who has been married, seen the marriage "fail," and would still be interested in giving marriage another go...that's reassuring to me, for some reason.

I haven't found that person I would want to spend the rest of my life yet, and where I live it wouldn't be legal for me to marry him anyway.

Fortunately(hopefully), when I go to college next year, I won't live here anymore; providing I don't just leave before I graduate. Which, to tell the truth, I've been considering more and more often recently.