NationStates Jolt Archive

What's the opinion on setting fire to flags? Is it OK to burn a flag? Should it?

As long as it's your own flag and no one is getting burned. But there are social consequences to it. I have written all of my congresspeople telling them I want it to remain legal.

What's the opinion on setting fire to flags? Is it OK to burn a flag? Should it?
Well, I am of two opinions on this. One is that free speech means just that, no matter if you like it or not.

The second is, oh kamisama, NOT AGAIN! Please, not another flag burning thread.

I don't personally approve of it, as is said on a t-shirt I have. "Save a flag, burn a protester."

Its alright (I guess) for people in other countries to do, but people in the united states (especially citizens) should get the fuck out. You goddamn freeloading whiners.

Its alright (I guess) for people in other countries to do, but people in the united states (especially citizens) should get the fuck out. You goddamn freeloading whiners.

Can't think of a time when I was freeloading... well, there was a time when my family was on welfare for a couple of years, but considering the circimstances, I would assume that they are understandable.

I'll reserve the right to burn the flag if I so feel like it, thanks.

Its alright (I guess) for people in other countries to do, but people in the united states (especially citizens) should get the fuck out. You goddamn freeloading whiners.
Amen.

its fun for the whole family

Flag burning is for pansy protesters. Remember that Monk from Vietnam? (It was Vietnam, right, I'm not going completely crazy?) Yeah, that's what I wanna see more of. Wait, even better idea! Wrap a flag around yourself, and set both on fire. Now THAT'S commitment to a cause.

I don't personally approve of it, as is said on a t-shirt I have. "Save a flag, burn a protester."

You ARE aware that I didn't say WHICH FLAG, right?

I believe that burning a flag is something that should not be banned. The act, however, is highly provocative. I think that if you burn the flag of you own country, you should be prepared to recieve a broken nose and not cry about it when it happens. If the only way you can think of to publicize your protest or position is to deliberately inflame the emotions of others in a highly charged way, you should accept the physical consequences of getting your ass kicked.

Its alright (I guess) for people in other countries to do, but people in the united states (especially citizens) should get the fuck out. You goddamn freeloading whiners.
Yeah! How dare you use your freedom of speech!

If flag burning becomes illegal, what are Boy Scouts going to do when they retire a flag? The only difference between a Boy Scout and someone protesting is the thought in their minds. If you make it illegal to burn a flag as a form of protest, well... Thought Police, I guess.

I think flag burning should remain legal as a form of political speech, but I don't think it's philosophically correct for american protesters to do so today. After all, the flag represents the Constitution and the decision by Americans to make our own choices. In theory, the Republicans should be the ones burning the flag, since they're against the Constitution, and they seem to want a British style religious monarchy. Or maybe that's just the neo-cons.

As long as you aren’t physically hurting anyone with your flag burning and the owner of the property allows it, go ahead and burn anything you want, except money; that hurts the economy.

Flag burning should be legal, as long as you're not harming anyone else(physically not emotionally).

The only reasons I might burn a flag are for warmth (unlikely but hey, could happen) or to piss off people like Po Tato there.

It's a non-issue for me, or would be, but the "Love it or leave it" crowd seems so easily tricked into a near-homicidal rage by it, how can anyone resist pushing their button?

People should be allowed to burn flags so long as they own the flag or have the flag owner's permission (to burn it), and so long as they do not physically endanger anyone.

I do not agree that it should be allowed but at the risk of being subjected to physical violence (such as having one's nose punched). It is illegal to punch someone on the nose for the purposes of expressing anger, as well it should be.

I don't have a problem with it, as long as the flag they burn is theirs to burn, and they don't create a fire hazard when they do it (i.e., burning the flag should be judged the same as burning a cloth sheet of equivalent size). Oh and of course they shouldn't hurt other people when they do it either.

As for whether I like it, well, I pretty much agree with the sentiment (keeping the government on its toes is always good), but think there are more explicit ways one can protest (e.g., specifically outlining things one doesn't support). Burning the flag WILL attract attention, but I'm not so sure it's the kind of attention I'd want to attract as a protestor. Though I guess that's not so much a statement about the act itself as it is about the general public and its flag-worshipping lunacy.

What's the opinion on setting fire to flags? Is it OK to burn a flag? Should it?

Would have to agree with the "save the flag, and burn the protester" idea.

Laughed my butt off watching a video a while back showing protesters burning an American flag and next thing you know the goob was burning... If I would have been there I would have been looking round for some marshmallows.

To me if you burn your own nations flag : traitor and should face charges for it.

And then ofcourse easy to know what to do to those types
:eek: :sniper:

Then, you have to keep in mind that some people are rightly pissed by the prospect of burning a flag in protest. Who come to my mind are the folks who have served under, fought for, and died for the Stars and Stripes. They've earned their right to speak out against flag-burners.

As long as you aren’t physically hurting anyone with your flag burning and the owner of the property allows it, go ahead and burn anything you want, except money; that hurts the economy.

burning money is destroying government property.

If flag burning becomes illegal, what are Boy Scouts going to do when they retire a flag? The only difference between a Boy Scout and someone protesting is the thought in their minds. If you make it illegal to burn a flag as a form of protest, well... Thought Police, I guess.

you can't burn a person, but you can cremate them. Technically if a flag ever is damaged or touches the ground you need to either bury it or cremate it. (the difference being, burnt to kill it essentially, and burnt to kill what it stands for)

I think it falls under free speech, technically it is treason, but it's protected by free speech for now, so it should stay that way.

Its alright (I guess) for people in other countries to do, but people in the united states (especially citizens) should get the fuck out. You goddamn freeloading whiners.

Pretty hypocritical pov isnt it ? What would you say if you lived in say Korea about burning a korean flag ?

In my opinion it should be legal to burn flags, its only a piece of cloth after all.

Civil liberties held by Americans (Good government):

1. Own a gun.
2. No state endorsed religion.
3. Burn the flag in protest of government action.

Result: Not have to run to the boarder for a better country.

Civil liberties not held by Mexicans (Shit government):

1. You can't own a gun.
2. Catholics is the state religion.
3. You can not burn the Mexican flag in protest.

Result: Run for the boarder.

See here's the deal, its a civil liberty. I won't do it, but why make it illegal? For me the American flag represents the government of the American Republic. Its not like burning a copy of the Constitution.

For others, I can understand if you feel the flag represents "America". But for me, and others it represents the government when they protest.

I'd never burn the flag untill the Republic is abolished, but the hell is the point of taking away a right that makes us a better country than Mexico.

I'm all for it.. it's free speech and I don't see anything wrong with burning a bit of cloth.

Yes. I believe that all flags should be treated with equal care.

i concur. all flags are equal and deserve equal protection. whether they are those strings of triangle flags associated with sidewalk sales or the stars and bars.

burn baby, burn

They've earned their right to speak out against flag-burners.

everybody has the right to speak out against anything - it's not something you have to earn. having the right doesn't automatically make any bullshit that comes from their mouths worth paying attention to.

Would have to agree with the "save the flag, and burn the protester" idea.

Laughed my butt off watching a video a while back showing protesters burning an American flag and next thing you know the goob was burning... If I would have been there I would have been looking round for some marshmallows.

To me if you burn your own nations flag : traitor and should face charges for it.

And then ofcourse easy to know what to do to those types
:eek: :sniper:
Burning a flag isn't treason; it's usually used as a form of free speech/protesting, which is protected under the 1st Amendment. Also, I fail to see how burning a piece of cloth, as long as it is the property of the person burning it, makes that person a traitor.

Civil liberties held by Americans (Good government):

1. Own a gun.
2. No state endorsed religion.
3. Burn the flag in protest of government action.

Result: Not have to run to the boarder for a better country.

Civil liberties not held by Mexicans (Shit government):

1. You can't own a gun.
2. Catholics is the state religion.
3. You can not burn the Mexican flag in protest.

Result: Run for the boarder.

See here's the deal, its a civil liberty. I won't do it, but why make it illegal? For me the American flag represents the government of the American Republic. Its not like burning a copy of the Constitution.

For others, I can understand if you feel the flag represents "America". But for me, and others it represents the government when they protest.

I'd never burn the flag untill the Republic is abolished, but the hell is the point of taking away a right that makes us a better country than Mexico.

I'll tell you the point. To make our country less desirable, so all the illegal immigrants won't come in and steal our jobs!

Generally, the people who are against flag burning are also pro-border control (often being vehement about both issues). Go figure. They don't care about losing civil liberties if it meant they didn't have to worry bout the Mexicans.

Then, you have to keep in mind that some people are rightly pissed by the prospect of burning a flag in protest. Who come to my mind are the folks who have served under, fought for, and died for the Stars and Stripes. They've earned their right to speak out against flag-burners.
Yep they can protest the burning of the flag within the law as can those who wish to burn the flag. That's what democracy is all about, well the very narrow version of it allowed in the US.

Burning a flag isn't treason; it's usually used as a form of free speech/protesting, which is protected under the 1st Amendment. Also, I fail to see how burning a piece of cloth, as long as it is the property of the person burning it, makes that person a traitor.

it is treason, but due to the fact that it's regarded as a part of free speech, that makes it not treason. if it wasn't considered free speech, it would be treason.

Burning a flag isn't treason; it's usually used as a form of free speech/protesting, which is protected under the 1st Amendment. Also, I fail to see how burning a piece of cloth, as long as it is the property of the person burning it, makes that person a traitor.

Other ways of protesting rather then disrespecting your nations flag.

Will not argue the point on this one. As on this one I am stuck hard to my views.

And to me it is an act of treason. *shrug*

Not that Im going to go out shooting people who do it. Well, atleast not till it is outlawed. Then Ill sign up for the shooter position :)

if it wasn't considered free speech, it would be treason.

incorrect

Other ways of protesting rather then disrespecting your nations flag.

Will not argue the point on this one. As on this one I am stuck hard to my views.

And to me it is an act of treason. *shrug*

Not that Im going to go out shooting people who do it. Well, atleast not till it is outlawed. Then Ill sign up for the shooter position :)
Not treason unless you can prove that the intent of the flag burner is to illegally overthow the Gov rather than expressing an objection or digust at the Gov.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with burning a flag. It's just a piece of cloth. Hell, if my parents let me have our American flag, I'd burn it in protest. But since it's rather old, I'm not allowed to touch it. Which is a shame. Or else it would have gone up in smoke by now.
As for people seeing it as treason, how is it treason? People burn flags in protest. Protesting is protected by the First Amendment, which states that American citizens have the right to freedom of speech. I am an American citizen. I have the right to dissent. Besides, if I go out and buy the flag, I am not damaging someone else's property. It would be my flag.
And nose punching: turn the other cheek.
To Po Tato: People do what they please. Please get over yourself and try something called being polite in your disagreements. Some of us find it a bit offensive when we are told to "get the fuck out". Next time try, "If you are going to burn a symbol of the U.S., you should leave, especially if you are a citizen". See how much nicer that is? Oh yes, and flaming is bad for your karma. You wouldn't want karma-ic damage from something that trivial, now would you?

incorrect

no, the flag represents the nation. Should flag burning not be protected as an expression of free speech, then it would be burning all that the nation stands for, and that is treason. If you think it isn't, tell me what treason is. I am all for burning the flag as an expression of free speech, however if it wasn't considered free speech it would be treason.

Other ways of protesting rather then disrespecting your nations flag.

Will not argue the point on this one. As on this one I am stuck hard to my views.

And to me it is an act of treason. *shrug*

Not that Im going to go out shooting people who do it. Well, atleast not till it is outlawed. Then Ill sign up for the shooter position :)
Well, I suppose there are other ways of protesting that most people would be less offended by. You have a good point there.

Thank you for being civil in your response. While I still disagree with you on this issue, I respect you for that.

What's the opinion on setting fire to flags? Is it OK to burn a flag? Should it?I personnaly thing it is necessary to be allowed to burn your own country's flag as a sign of protest. The same goes for stepping on flags and rubbing them in the dirt.
That said, I find it disrespectful and find "defacing" the flag a better way of protest. Writing "Not in my name" or "Not for oil" in black letters on a flag is much more respectful in my eyes than setting fire to it or grinding it into the dirt.

If you think it isn't, tell me what treason is.

article 3 of ye olde u.s. constitution:

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

no, the flag represents the nation. Should flag burning not be protected as an expression of free speech, then it would be burning all that the nation stands for, and that is treason.
No, it would not be burning everything the nation stands for, at most it would be burning a symbol of everything the nation stands for.

If you think it isn't, tell me what treason is.
For something to be treason it must be unlawful and somehow threaten or appear to threaten the nation's security.

(especi I am all for burning the flag as an expression of free speech, however if it wasn't considered free speech it would be treason.
Well perhaps it would be legally considered as such, who only knows. The fact is that burning the flag does not pose a particular threat to the nation's security, anymore say than printing a news artical claiming the Constitution is outdated would be.

Other ways of protesting rather then disrespecting your nations flag.

there are always other things that could be done. so fucking what?

Treason is the action of helping an enemy take over your nation... I can't even begin to guess how dissent can be sidelined with treason.

The way I see it, most flag-burning protestors are patriots. They give a shit about their country and they publicly show their outrage, when they feel the powers-that-be are undermining the fundamental ideals of the nation.

I have no idea why people would think it wrong to burn their own flag. If people think the symbol is being shit on, why should they not burn it?
Is it better to shut up & play along with things you are opposed to?

If you think it's a great idea to use physical force against non-violent protests, how long do you think it will take for the non-violent protesters to arm themselves and use violence in return?
Personally I'd tear you limb from useless limb if you took a swing at me for burning my own property. And I'd be more than a bit pleased being able to excuse it with self-defence.

I consider it much closer to treason to just shut up and play along, instead of showing your dissent. Obviously you have no clue what independent thought is. The US, amongst other countries, protects and encourages autonomy & freedom of expression, as long as people doesn't harm eachother. I do not see how burning a flag harms anyone at all. In contrast, some of you here encourages violence against flag burners. I can only draw the conclusion that you are militant fascists. If that is indeed the case, your ideology is diametrically opposed to the US constitution, and you are the ones bordering on treason. Thankfully I am not American, and thus doesn't have to share my country with you, but since some of you spew that dissidents shouldn't stay in the US, I'd think it only fair to suggest you lot leave the country as well. Just don't come here, you aren't welcome here either.

I almost feel like moving to America and burning a flag just to piss you lot off.

there are always other things that could be done. so fucking what?

Make you feel like a big person swearing all the time ? Never did understand that.

Make you feel like a big person swearing all the time ?

nope. care to deal with the fucking issue at hand?

To the Similized world: I love you. ((Platonically, of course)) :: Does a happy dance because someone else sees it the same way as her.::
Oh yes, "To dissent is the highest form of patriotism". I can't remember who said that, although I think it was Thomas Jefferson. I love that quote.

Treason is the action of helping an enemy take over your nation... I can't even begin to guess how dissent can be sidelined with treason.

The way I see it, most flag-burning protestors are patriots. They give a shit about their country and they publicly show their outrage, when they feel the powers-that-be are undermining the fundamental ideals of the nation.

I have no idea why people would think it wrong to burn their own flag. If people think the symbol is being shit on, why should they not burn it?
Is it better to shut up & play along with things you are opposed to?

If you think it's a great idea to use physical force against non-violent protests, how long do you think it will take for the non-violent protesters to arm themselves and use violence in return?
Personally I'd tear you limb from useless limb if you took a swing at me for burning my own property. And I'd be more than a bit pleased being able to excuse it with self-defence.

I consider it much closer to treason to just shut up and play along, instead of showing your dissent. Obviously you have no clue what independent thought is. The US, amongst other countries, protects and encourages autonomy & freedom of expression, as long as people doesn't harm eachother. I do not see how burning a flag harms anyone at all. In contrast, some of you here encourages violence against flag burners. I can only draw the conclusion that you are militant fascists. If that is indeed the case, your ideology is diametrically opposed to the US constitution, and you are the ones bordering on treason. Thankfully I am not American, and thus doesn't have to share my country with you, but since some of you spew that dissidents shouldn't stay in the US, I'd think it only fair to suggest you lot leave the country as well. Just don't come here, you aren't welcome here either.

I almost feel like moving to America and burning a flag just to piss you lot off.

Well, as has been said lots of times, arguing on the internet is a lot like the special olympics. But I do take it very sourly being called a militant fascist just because I dont think flag burning is right and in my view treason and therefore those guilty should be shot.

And your view is also respectable in that you think folks should be able to do what they want with your nations flag.

Personally, I think the American Govt has become a monster our nations forefathers never intended. Career political types and all the special interest lobbyists actually rueling the nation instead of the peoples wishes. But I still think their are better ways to show displeasure or outrage then to attack what some of your fellow citizens, actually respect as a symbol, a representation of our nation.

But then you said it yourself you enjoy doing things just to piss people off. So that could maybe be where the underlying difference in beliefs lay.

nope. care to deal with the fucking issue at hand?
Nope, you are just too uber for me to deal with. Just curious, is that the only one you know ?

Well, as has been said lots of times, arguing on the internet is a lot like the special olympics. But I do take it very sourly being called a militant fascist just because I dont think flag burning is right and in my view treason and therefore those guilty should be shot.

But then you said it yourself you enjoy doing things just to piss people off. So that could maybe be where the underlying difference in beliefs lay.
Umm, I cant help but wonder if the difference is more along the lines of Sim World is happy to piss off people who's behaviour he/she disapproves of, whereas you are prepared to kill them.... :confused:

But I do take it very sourly being called a militant fascist just because I dont think flag burning is right and in my view treason and therefore those guilty should be shot.


awww the big meanies called you a fascist, and all you ever did was advocate the murder of people 'guilty' of burning some rags.

Well, as has been said lots of times, arguing on the internet is a lot like the special olympics. But I do take it very sourly being called a militant fascist just because I dont think flag burning is right and in my view treason and therefore those guilty should be shot.I'm sorry. I don't know how sarcastic you are being about this, but if that's true, you really shouldn't be surprised if you get mistaken for a "militant fascist". Burning a piece of cloth, no matter how symbolic, will never be comparable to things like hiding an enemy soldier, spying, or calling for a violent removal of the current form of government.

And your view is also respectable in that you think folks should be able to do what they want with your nations flag. I appreciate that statement. :)

Personally, I think the American Govt has become a monster our nations forefathers never intended. Career political types and all the special interest lobbyists actually rueling the nation instead of the peoples wishes. But I still think their are better ways to show displeasure or outrage then to attack what some of your fellow citizens, actually respect as a symbol, a representation of our nation. Of course there are, but the reson why it gets attackid is because it's a symbol, because it states something. If it was just a piece of cloth there would be no message to protest. Burning the flag states that you vehemently and angriliy disagree with what that flag stands for. I don't find flag burning very nice, but I don't have a problem with "attacking" the flag itself.

Well, as has been said lots of times, arguing on the internet is a lot like the special olympics. But I do take it very sourly being called a militant fascist just because I dont think flag burning is right and in my view treason and therefore those guilty should be shot.

And your view is also respectable in that you think folks should be able to do what they want with your nations flag.

Personally, I think the American Govt has become a monster our nations forefathers never intended. Career political types and all the special interest lobbyists actually rueling the nation instead of the peoples wishes. But I still think their are better ways to show displeasure or outrage then to attack what some of your fellow citizens, actually respect as a symbol, a representation of our nation.

But then you said it yourself you enjoy doing things just to piss people off. So that could maybe be where the underlying difference in beliefs lay.
I assume then, that you wish to have all American career politicians executes as well? They, according to you, work against the ideals of the country, yet have the nerve to adorn their offices and institutions with your nation's flag?

I'd almost agree to your murderous ideas, if you agree with the above. 'Almost' being the key word.

However, I wonder why anyone would take a symbol more serious than a human life? How can you condone killing people over an action that presents no threat towards anyone?
Also, do you think it patriotic not to question or show dissent?

Heh, around here, if the flgg ever touches the ground, it should be burned...Beacuse it's no longer pure, or something like that.

I think it should be legal but it's still a rather idiotic thing to do. It certainly wouldn't upset me and I wouldn't understand the logic behind it.

If you think it's dishonouring what about thongs or bras or bikinis etc with flags on them, isn't that dishonouring?

Flag burning falls squarly under my "I don't agree with what you say, but I'll fight to the death for your right to say it" belief.

Well, as has been said lots of times, arguing on the internet is a lot like the special olympics. But I do take it very sourly being called a militant fascist just because I dont think flag burning is right and in my view treason and therefore those guilty should be shot.

And your view is also respectable in that you think folks should be able to do what they want with your nations flag.

Personally, I think the American Govt has become a monster our nations forefathers never intended. Career political types and all the special interest lobbyists actually rueling the nation instead of the peoples wishes. But I still think their are better ways to show displeasure or outrage then to attack what some of your fellow citizens, actually respect as a symbol, a representation of our nation.

But then you said it yourself you enjoy doing things just to piss people off. So that could maybe be where the underlying difference in beliefs lay.
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it must be a... ...militant fascist. Because ducks all think flag burning is treason, therefore those guilty should be shot. Especially duck-hunters. The militant fascist ones. By the - over - yeah, over there in the rushes pretending to be horny ducks. Those guys, there.

Heh, around here, if the flgg ever touches the ground, it should be burned...Beacuse it's no longer pure, or something like that.That's a common misconception actually. It should be cleaned if it's dirtied by that and shouldn't be allowed to remain in such a state that it touches the ground, but burning (ceremoniously, mind you) is reserved for when it is in such a shape of repair that it should be retired. At least the American flag...

awww the big meanies called you a fascist, and all you ever did was advocate the murder of people 'guilty' of burning some rags.
::Sighs:: Honestly. What is it these days with people and unnecessary rudenss? Just because you disagree with someone is no reason to be rude about it. Remember that flaming others achieves nothing but bad karma. And it solves nothing. Zip, zero, zilch, nada, goose egg.
Although, I admit, executing someone for burning a piece of cloth is a tad extreme. Oh hell, it's really extreme. No offence to Tyma though.

I'm sorry. I don't know how sarcastic you are being about this, but if that's true, you really shouldn't be surprised if you get mistaken for a "militant fascist". Burning a piece of cloth, no matter how symbolic, will never be comparable to things like hiding an enemy soldier, spying, or calling for a violent removal of the current form of government.
I appreciate that statement. :)
Of course there are, but the reson why it gets attackid is because it's a symbol, because it states something. If it was just a piece of cloth there would be no message to protest. Burning the flag states that you vehemently and angriliy disagree with what that flag stands for. I don't find flag burning very nice, but I don't have a problem with "attacking" the flag itself.

Well, Reckon we have different ideas on militant facist's then. Id say more extreme patriot. After all Im not for marching entire races into gas chambers , which is what I think of when I think of fascist types. (never understood that part of Hitler Germany) Anyhow, I am wandering...

Glad you appreciate that I appreciate others views too. Simply wish others would acknowledge my right to be outraged about my fellow Americans crapping on me when they burn my flag when they could express their anger in other ways. And yes, crapping on me raises my dander a bit more then is healthy :) (hence my volunteering comment).

It is a disgusting, act of treason to do such a thing in my mind. You disrespect everything your nation is "supposed to stand for" by doing it. Want a new govt. Vote for it. If that doesnt work, well as has been said before, a little revolution now and then is a healthy thing. And certainly America needs that with the stranglehold the special interest groups have over her these days.

And no Im not talking about terrorist type tactics, lowering yourself to those tactics means you are not really fighting for what America is about. Ofcourse with the whole world hating America we really cant afford a civil war right now. So we kinda stuck :)

That's a common misconception actually. It should be cleaned if it's dirtied by that and shouldn't be allowed to remain in such a state that it touches the ground, but burning (ceremoniously, mind you) is reserved for when it is in such a shape of repair that it should be retired. At least the American flag...
I quess so. My teacher told me that in first or second class but the law says nothing about it (except that it should be clean and that you have dry it indoors)

Some old guy just got a fine because he dried his flag on the window.

::Sighs:: Honestly. What is it these days with people and unnecessary rudenss? Just because you disagree with someone is no reason to be rude about it. Remember that flaming others achieves nothing but bad karma. And it solves nothing. Zip, zero, zilch, nada, goose egg.
Although, I admit, executing someone for burning a piece of cloth is a tad extreme. Oh hell, it's really extreme. No offence to Tyma though.
I'm sorry I didn't address the militant fascism bit.

Tyma, can you objectively state why someone who does not know you in person, wouldn't come to the conclusion that you are a militant fascist?

You advocate the execution of people who burns a national symbol. To my knowledge, only fascists place such importance on national symbols, and only militants advocate killing people for their ideas.

You will just have to forgive my mistake if you aren't a militant fascist, but don't expect an excuse. I fail to see how I could possibly think you are anything but a militant fascist. Regardless, it was not meant as a personal attack. Some people are fascists, and some of those are militant. I doubt they would appreciate you sidelining the labels with name-calling.

I assume then, that you wish to have all American career politicians executes as well? They, according to you, work against the ideals of the country, yet have the nerve to adorn their offices and institutions with your nation's flag?

I'd almost agree to your murderous ideas, if you agree with the above. 'Almost' being the key word.

However, I wonder why anyone would take a symbol more serious than a human life? How can you condone killing people over an action that presents no threat towards anyone?
Also, do you think it patriotic not to question or show dissent?

It is patriotic to both question and show dissent when your "elected" (use the word lightly) govt is doing wrong.

Attacking the flag if you view it as nothing more then a rag is pointless. People attack it to hurt people like myself who see the flag as almost having a life of it's own out of love for the nation it stands for.

Therefore burning it with that intent is a direct attack against fellow Americans. So I see it as treason. And to me, Treason has only one punishment.

Well, Reckon we have different ideas on militant facist's then. Id say more extreme patriot. After all Im not for marching entire races into gas chambers , which is what I think of when I think of fascist types. (never understood that part of Hitler Germany) Anyhow, I am wandering...All Nazis are Fascist, but not all Fascists are Nazis, it's like the dogs and mammals thing. I still consider both a crime, but Fascism is extreme patriotism (nationalism, in this case) and Nazism is based on the false premise of racial superiority.

Glad you appreciate that I appreciate others views too. Simply wish others would acknowledge my right to be outraged about my fellow Americans crapping on me when they burn my flag when they could express their anger in other ways. And yes, crapping on me raises my dander a bit more then is healthy :) (hence my volunteering comment).You'll learn to grow a thicker skin. ;) I've been called a Nazi when it was completely uncalled for and that's probably the thing that will get me the most offended. You have a right to be outraged by someone burning your flag. I don't really like it either, but I think Americans should be allowed to burn American flags. What really riles me is foreigners burning it. You should only be burning your own national flag if you burn any.

It is a disgusting, act of treason to do such a thing in my mind. You disrespect everything your nation is "supposed to stand for" by doing it. Want a new govt. Vote for it. If that doesnt work, well as has been said before, a little revolution now and then is a healthy thing. And certainly America needs that with the stranglehold the special interest groups have over her these days.Disrespect is what I'd call it to, but disrespect isn't treason. I find it extremely disrespectful to destroy a flag, but I don't think it should be punishable. And I'd prefer someone burning a flag than starting a revolution every time the vote goes the other way ;)
On a side note, what do you think of defacing flags, such as writing something on it? I think this is a better way of protesting, since it doesn't destroy the flag in the way a burning does.

::Sighs:: Honestly. What is it these days with people and unnecessary rudenss? Just because you disagree with someone is no reason to be rude about it. Remember that flaming others achieves nothing but bad karma. And it solves nothing. Zip, zero, zilch, nada, goose egg.
Although, I admit, executing someone for burning a piece of cloth is a tad extreme. Oh hell, it's really extreme. No offence to Tyma though.

Bah, dont mind that chap. General rule of thumb, if you see someone that cant express themselves without 1 sentence = atleast one profane word, then you can generally skip over the posts. heh. I only answered to see how many times it took to get a post without a swear word. Not to say I dont swear in RL when angry, but takes a bit more thought when posting. So is more deliberate.

Executing someone for burning a piece of cloth is extreme I agree. But then you also made it look a lot more trivial a thing then you should have seen I view it when that "scrap of cloth" is my nations flag. So atleast say "Executing someone for burning your nations flag is a bit extreme". :)

Attacking the flag if you view it as nothing more then a rag is pointless. People attack it to hurt people like myself who see the flag as almost having a life of it's own out of love for the nation it stands for.Not really. The people I know would burn it because they feel ashamed of what has become of America and not because they feel it would hurt you.

you know what i like about flag burning? it rather neatly sorts out the dangerous authoritarians from those of us that care about freedom.

Executing someone for burning a piece of cloth is extreme I agree. But then you also made it look a lot more trivial a thing then you should have seen I view it when that "scrap of cloth" is my nations flag. So atleast say "Executing someone for burning your nations flag is a bit extreme". :)Since, in the end, every flag is a piece of cloth with meaning, executing someone for burning your nation's flag (your nation's? this would include foreigners then, and they're not really capable of treason against the US) is quite extreme, no matter what.

All Nazis are Fascist, but not all Fascists are Nazis, it's like the dogs and mammals thing. I still consider both a crime, but Fascism is extreme patriotism (nationalism, in this case) and Nazism is based on the false premise of racial superiority.
You'll learn to grow a thicker skin. ;) I've been called a Nazi when it was completely uncalled for and that's probably the thing that will get me the most offended. You have a right to be outraged by someone burning your flag. I don't really like it either, but I think Americans should be allowed to burn American flags. What really riles me is foreigners burning it. You should only be burning your own national flag if you burn any.
Disrespect is what I'd call it to, but disrespect isn't treason. I find it extremely disrespectful to destroy a flag, but I don't think it should be punishable. And I'd prefer someone burning a flag than starting a revolution every time the vote goes the other way ;)
On a side note, what do you think of defacing flags, such as writing something on it? I think this is a better way of protesting, since it doesn't destroy the flag in the way a burning does.

One thing I really like about this site, is I often find people I can truly like on the other end of the argument even during the debate :)

Anyhow, on to your points.

Ok, then I guess I am a fascist. In the sense that I do have extreme patriotism for my nation of birth which is America. (but does it mean im kinda cheating to also have pride in my ancestors homes which were German,Irish and English (Also American Indian, but that would just add to my Fascist views of America). But Im actually a pacifist in that I dont really think violence solves an argument (do think death is a viable punishment for certain crimes though). My own views twist enough to confuse me at times :)

Wasnt talking about revolution every time the vote goes the wrong way. But when the vote is rigged... well, anyhow.

Defacing the flag is just as bad if it can not be restored atleast. Again, to those you wish to make the point. ANymore the flag means little I wouldnt doubt. With career politicians all they want is to stay in office and keep getting their kickbacks for their votes.

Not really. The people I know would burn it because they feel ashamed of what has become of America and not because they feel it would hurt you.
Exactly. How can such patriotism be called treason?! The mind boggles...

Tyma, I don't think a flag has no symbolic value. However, placing a national symbol above the lives of your fellow citizens is pure lunacy to me.

Do you really put symbols of your nations ideals above the people - the very embodiment of those ideals? If you call such values patriotism, you have no clue what patriotism is.

A patriot takes his/her nation's ideals seriously, and fights to promote and preserve them. A patriot will question and oppose government, if the government fails to promote and preserve the nation's ideals and the best interests of it's peoples.

I agree that it is extreme to burn a flag, but when people feel the government is sullying the flag, then cleansing it with fire and showing your disgust in public, is the only truely patriotic thing to do. Taking offence is folly.

A flag should only be burned when it has become old and worn and needs to be retired.

you know what i like about flag burning? it rather neatly sorts out the dangerous authoritarians from those of us that care about freedom.

Kudos :)

As for the freedom remark, I take it then you think I am against freedom ? :)

Ok, how about this. Im against burning flags, yall are against me.

How yall feel about people burning wood nailed into a cross shape ? That hunky dory too ?

I mean, it is just wood.

Well, Reckon we have different ideas on militant facist's then. Id say more extreme patriot. After all Im not for marching entire races into gas chambers , which is what I think of when I think of fascist types. (never understood that part of Hitler Germany) Anyhow, I am wandering...
As another poster above has pointed out, you are mistaken about the meaning of the word facist.

Glad you appreciate that I appreciate others views too. Simply wish others would acknowledge my right to be outraged about my fellow Americans crapping on me when they burn my flag when they could express their anger in other ways. And yes, crapping on me raises my dander a bit more then is healthy :) (hence my volunteering comment).
I'm not certain anyone is failing to realise your right to be outraged, I think what concerns them more is your desire to express your outrage by killing people...

It is a disgusting, act of treason to do such a thing in my mind.
Then I can only conclude that your understanding of the word treason is about as accurate as your understanding of the word facist.

You disrespect everything your nation is "supposed to stand for" by doing it.
Or at least that is your opinion, many others have a different opinion...

Want a new govt. Vote for it. If that doesnt work, well as has been said before, a little revolution now and then is a healthy thing. And certainly America needs that with the stranglehold the special interest groups have over her these days.
Mmm, burning a flag is treason but rebellion is ok.... may I ask what you imagine treason means...? :confused:

And no Im not talking about terrorist type tactics, lowering yourself to those tactics means you are not really fighting for what America is about. Ofcourse with the whole world hating America we really cant afford a civil war right now. So we kinda stuck :)
Hang on if you are not talking about voting (which your comments make clear you are not) how do you imagine a rebellion would be achieved, and why do you think that actual treason is ok (aka rebellion) whilst wanting to shoot non-treasonists (aka flag burners), when your supposed justification for shooting the non-treasonists is that you believe they are guilty of treason....? :confused:

You sure got me wondering... :confused:

Defacing the flag is just as bad if it can not be restored atleast. I'll give you a specific example I'm guilty of: I have a small American flag (one of those that you stick into snacks) that I blackened with an Edding the day Bush got reelected. I did this because I wanted to express my shame of being the citizen of a country in which the population was perfectly willing to watch and condemn when a Democrat president lied about having an affair, but reelected a Republican president on the account that he lied about something that's been costing American lives. If I did it to insult other Americans, I wouldn't have refrained from displaying it when the boyfriend of one of my fellow students was visiting while he was on leave from Iraq. You can't fix that flag or restore it to its former state.

Kudos :)

As for the freedom remark, I take it then you think I am against freedom ? :)
Well I dont believe you are all for it.

Ok, how about this. Im against burning flags, yall are against me.
I'm not 'against you', but I do not support in any way shape or form the execution of people who burn flags, even if burning flags were illegal, (which I do not think it should be).


How yall feel about people burning wood nailed into a cross shape ? That hunky dory too ?

I mean, it is just wood.
In the first instance I have not claimed that burning a flag is hunky dory, although I do think it ought not be illegal.

As for the wood, if the person owns the wood, is not creating a fire hazard, and they are not breaking trespass laws or otherwise interfering with someone else's property rights, whether or not it is 'hunky dory' it should most certainly not be illegal.

Exactly. How can such patriotism be called treason?! The mind boggles...

Tyma, I don't think a flag has no symbolic value. However, placing a national symbol above the lives of your fellow citizens is pure lunacy to me.

Do you really put symbols of your nations ideals above the people - the very embodiment of those ideals? If you call such values patriotism, you have no clue what patriotism is.

A patriot takes his/her nation's ideals seriously, and fights to promote and preserve them. A patriot will question and oppose government, if the government fails to promote and preserve the nation's ideals and the best interests of it's peoples.

I agree that it is extreme to burn a flag, but when people feel the government is sullying the flag, then cleansing it with fire and showing your disgust in public, is the only truely patriotic thing to do. Taking offence is folly.

Well, we differ there. Since I dont wish to say what you do or dont know is.

I know how I feel, to me that is what I know. And as I said when I first entered this debate Im steadfast on my views on this subject :) You tell the govt nothing with flag burning. Mostly those in the upper levels could give three hoots if its the stars and stripes or a bearded man in a tutu flying out there as long as they get theirs.

So essentially all the arguments here are that we agree in disliking a govt, but who cares about the peons who actually care about their nations flag. :) And what it was supposed to stand for.

And to step over the line to burn something held dear by many just to get a response, well, I offered up a response. There are other ways to get your point across without disrespecting your own nations flag.

Kudos :)

As for the freedom remark, I take it then you think I am against freedom ? :)

Ok, how about this. Im against burning flags, yall are against me.

How yall feel about people burning wood nailed into a cross shape ? That hunky dory too ?

I mean, it is just wood.
I'm assuming you're alluding to some sort of KKK ritual? It's a lot easier to get the sort of response you're fishing for, if you just come right out and say what you mean.

Personally I have no problem with people burning crosses. I fail to see the point, other than to insult Christians maybe.. Regardless, everyone will be offended by something someone does. It's inevitable. I fail to see why we should start killing eachother simply because we find eachother obnoxious. And I can't imagine there would be a lot of people left on this planet if we started doing that.

If it is some KKK thing you're referring to, then there's quite a difference, isn't there? They burn crosses to scare people. That's basically terrorism. That said, they can hold their inane gatherings if they want, as long as I can demonstrate peacefully right next to them.

I see no reason not to object to people who act against the ideals of your nation and it's peoples. Likewise, if you feel patriotism get out of hand when it involves flag burning, I think you should stand up for your belief and protest it. Try talking to the people who do it. Perhaps you agree more than you think.

As another poster above has pointed out, you are mistaken about the meaning of the word facist.


I'm not certain anyone is failing to realise your right to be outraged, I think what concerns them more is your desire to express your outrage by killing people...


Then I can only conclude that your understanding of the word treason is about as accurate as your understanding of the word facist.


Or at least that is your opinion, many others have a different opinion...


Mmm, burning a flag is treason but rebellion is ok.... may I ask what you imagine treason means...? :confused:


Hang on if you are not talking about voting (which your comments make clear you are not) how do you imagine a rebellion would be achieved, and why do you think that actual treason is ok (aka rebellion) whilst wanting to shoot non-treasonists (aka flag burners), when your supposed justification for shooting the non-treasonists is that you believe they are guilty of treason....? :confused:

You sure got me wondering... :confused:

"You sure got me wondering..."

You should see the fun I have with my wife with how I twist in views :)

"You sure got me wondering..."

You should see the fun I have with my wife with how I twist in views :)
I dont doubt I'd be greatly amused. ;)

One thing though, are you implying I have somehow twisted your views? If so, could you be more specific. To be perfectly honest, I'm not aware of having done so. I thought my reply was a response to the veiws you were claiming to hold. Have I somehow misinterpreted what you have said? :confused:

I'll give you a specific example I'm guilty of: I have a small American flag (one of those that you stick into snacks) that I blackened with an Edding the day Bush got reelected. I did this because I wanted to express my shame of being the citizen of a country in which the population was perfectly willing to watch and condemn when a Democrat president lied about having an affair, but reelected a Republican president on the account that he lied about something that's been costing American lives. If I did it to insult other Americans, I wouldn't have refrained from displaying it when the boyfriend of one of my fellow students was visiting while he was on leave from Iraq. You can't fix that flag or restore it to its former state.

Are you wanting me to say I want you dead right now for doing that ? no

Im not quite that extreme.

I felt horrible the day Bush got re-elected as well. It showed me just how worthless the current system is.

And I still cant get over the stink about Mr Clintons BJ... who cares. Seen Hillary ? He was probably lucky to get any every 12 months. maybe as a christmas present. That was so much BS. AS was Baby bush being re-uped.

But my shame at fellow Americans didnt lead me to want to deface our flag. *shrug*

ok, ill admit it. I dont want people to really die for doing that. But dang close to it with how much it pisses me off. :(

How yall feel about people burning wood nailed into a cross shape ? That hunky dory too ?The difference between burning an American flag and burning a cross is that America is a country and has a foreign and domestic policy that can be criticized while christianity is a religion and does not have a united foreign or domestic policy.
At least that's why I think it would be acceptable to burn a flag while burning any form of religious symbols would not be acceptable.

Are you wanting me to say I want you dead right now for doing that ? noNot really what I was implying. I'm trying to point out that I personally feel better about covering the flag in black than burning it, because burning something seems more hateful than covering it in the way I chose.

I felt horrible the day Bush got re-elected as well. It showed me just how worthless the current system is.To me, the election was the chance we Americans had to show the world that we weren't the imperialist bastards everyone thought we were. When I got proven wrong, I was "disappointed". I felt taking it out the way I did and the way I still do (the only day I swopped it for a clean flag was on the 4th of July;)) was better than any other form of protest, since I felt it was more a message to anyone that was not American (since I study in Germany). There's only four other Americans I know of at my University, so I'm not doing it to spite their patriotism.
I was actually running around in shorts for two weeks after the election because those were the only clean pants I had that were black (and it gets cold in Germany at that time of year...).
But my shame at fellow Americans didnt lead me to want to deface our flag. *shrug*

ok, ill admit it. I dont want people to really die for doing that. But dang close to it with how much it pisses me off. :(It's not a duty to do anything to a flag if you're ashamed or don't like the US, but it needs to stay necessary to be allowed to make a political statement with it.

I'm assuming you're alluding to some sort of KKK ritual? It's a lot easier to get the sort of response you're fishing for, if you just come right out and say what you mean.

Personally I have no problem with people burning crosses. I fail to see the point, other than to insult Christians maybe.. Regardless, everyone will be offended by something someone does. It's inevitable. I fail to see why we should start killing eachother simply because we find eachother obnoxious. And I can't imagine there would be a lot of people left on this planet if we started doing that.

If it is some KKK thing you're referring to, then there's quite a difference, isn't there? They burn crosses to scare people. That's basically terrorism. That said, they can hold their inane gatherings if they want, as long as I can demonstrate peacefully right next to them.

I see no reason not to object to people who act against the ideals of your nation and it's peoples. Likewise, if you feel patriotism get out of hand when it involves flag burning, I think you should stand up for your belief and protest it. Try talking to the people who do it. Perhaps you agree more than you think.

Yes, was alluding to those in the KKK. Point I was making was they often argue when cornered it is just wood, and it was just their expression. To me the burning of the flag and it is just a rag are the same arguments.

As for talking to those who do it, im doing that here in a sense, Im talking to those who support it anyhow :)

people have the right to burn their own flag if they do not agree with what their country is doing and they hate their country. that's what i think but saying that i would never burn the irish flag

I dont doubt I'd be greatly amused. ;)

One thing though, are you implying I have somehow twisted your views? If so, could you be more specific. To be perfectly honest, I'm not aware of having done so. I thought my reply was a response to the veiws you were claiming to hold. Have I somehow misinterpreted what you have said? :confused:

No, you did not twist as I saw what I said my views were.

But I do sometimes go a bit more extreme or less, depending on the environment. (devils advocent thing)

:eek:

Not really what I was implying. I'm trying to point out that I personally feel better about covering the flag in black than burning it, because burning something seems more hateful than covering it in the way I chose.
To me, the election was the chance we Americans had to show the world that we weren't the imperialist bastards everyone thought we were. When I got proven wrong, I was "disappointed". I felt taking it out the way I did and the way I still do (the only day I swopped it for a clean flag was on the 4th of July;)) was better than any other form of protest, since I felt it was more a message to anyone that was not American (since I study in Germany). There's only four other Americans I know of at my University, so I'm not doing it to spite their patriotism.
I was actually running around in shorts for two weeks after the election because those were the only clean pants I had that were black (and it gets cold in Germany at that time of year...).
It's not a duty to do anything to a flag if you're ashamed or don't like the US, but it needs to stay necessary to be allowed to make a political statement with it.

Well, I dont hold with doing either :) It is not the Flag nor the nation that is letting us down in itself. The big con is that we are still a democracy.

Well, we are far those with the dollars to back their views. The rest of us are left shuffling for the leftovers from master's table.

Yes, was alluding to those in the KKK. Point I was making was they often argue when cornered it is just wood, and it was just their expression. To me the burning of the flag and it is just a rag are the same arguments.

As for talking to those who do it, im doing that here in a sense, Im talking to those who support it anyhow :)
If the KKK claim it's just wood, they're even bigger hypocrites than I thought. Who would burn a symbol if it was meaningless to them? People don't randomly destroy things just for the hell of it. Ok I do at times, but I'm strange.

I disagree you're talking with the flag burners here, and I disagree this is the context in which to do it. As far as I can tell, none of the posters here, have burned a flag. I haven't either. Besides, I think it would be more appropriate to talk to the people who do it, when they are actually doing it (or planning it). I think such a debate - if you lay off the death threats - would be more constructive for both parties.

On an unrelated note, I think you should do some research on fascism. I can't really say that you are one, but from what you write, it seems likely. I intensely disagree with fascism, but regardless of my distaste, it's always better to have some knowledge of one's ideology. Many people throughout the last century have been fascists, and many of them have written about it at great lenght. Some of it is even highly intelligent, though utterly vile if you ask me.

If the KKK claim it's just wood, they're even bigger hypocrites than I thought. Who would burn a symbol if it was meaningless to them? People don't randomly destroy things just for the hell of it. Ok I do at times, but I'm strange.

I disagree you're talking with the flag burners here, and I disagree this is the context in which to do it. As far as I can tell, none of the posters here, have burned a flag. I haven't either. Besides, I think it would be more appropriate to talk to the people who do it, when they are actually doing it (or planning it). I think such a debate - if you lay off the death threats - would be more constructive for both parties.

On an unrelated note, I think you should do some research on fascism. I can't really say that you are one, but from what you write, it seems likely. I intensely disagree with fascism, but regardless of my distaste, it's always better to have some knowledge of one's ideology. Many people throughout the last century have been fascists, and many of them have written about it at great lenght. Some of it is even highly intelligent, though utterly vile if you ask me.

Ok leaving the burning things alone, cause you confused me there.

People are here supporting flag burning, where should I post in opposition to it ? www.flagburnersshoulddie.com ? If I posted there I would disagree with em, I hate flag burning. Ive stayed true there. Thinking they should die for it. Well, not for burning it.. reasons behind maybe.. but that would detail a full scale background check :) And I dont have those resources.

Thought we covered the facist thing ? Extreme patriot ? If so aye. Or are you thinking as I did it meant Nazi fascism ? If so no, Im not a racist.

Anyhow. Way too late. Im off night all :) Thanks for a interesting debate for me to think on.

Oh and thank you Soviet dude for deciding to lose the profanity there for a few posts :)

Ok leaving the burning things alone, cause you confused me there.

People are here supporting flag burning, where should I post in opposition to it ? www.flagburnersshoulddie.com ? If I posted there I would disagree with em, I hate flag burning. Ive stayed true there. Thinking they should die for it. Well, not for burning it.. reasons behind maybe.. but that would detail a full scale background check :) And I dont have those resources.

Thought we covered the facist thing ? Extreme patriot ? If so aye. Or are you thinking as I did it meant Nazi fascism ? If so no, Im not a racist.

Anyhow. Way too late. Im off night all :) Thanks for a interesting debate for me to think on.

Oh and thank you Soviet dude for deciding to lose the profanity there for a few posts :)
I'm sorry you find me confusing. I don't exactly know what the confusion is about though, so I'm unable to clarify.

I didn't in any way suggest you should stop posting here. I said I don't think you are talking to the people who burn flags. Further, I said I think it is better to approach the people who burn flags, while they do it, or plan to do it. Chances are you'll have a more honest debate under those circumstances.

People in this thread simply see flag burning as a valid way to express themselves. That does not mean they would ever do it themselves, or even agree that it can concievably be the right thing to do. It just means they think burning a flag is a valid means of expressing outrage. At least, that's the opinion I have and what I have understood from the posts of others in this thread.

You are making less and less sense to me. If you don't really think people should be executed for burning the flag, then why say so repeatedly?

And how on earth can it be hard for you to learn their motives for doing it? We're talking about outspoken people here, people who are more than willing to explain their motives to any and all listeners. You wouldn't even have to ask them, just be close enough to them to hear their voices, and they'll do the rest.

I wonder, how can you defend killing people for not sharing your ideals? Are you the thought-police?

You misunderstand the fascism bit entirely. While nazism is a kind of fascism, I didn't call you a nazi, nor did I get the impression you are one. Most fascists are (to the best of my knowledge) not nazis. It's almost as silly as calling socialists nazis, simply because nazis share quite a few socialist ideals.
I didn't call you a racist either, nor did I get the impression you are one. Fascism and racism aren't inherrently connected.

I simply suggested you read up on what fascism is, because you seem to be clueless about it. Moreover, I get the impression that you are a highly authoritarian nationalist, probably with a strong conservative bend. Basically that describes fascism pretty well, so I suspect you might be one, whether you know it or not. I think you should find out, as it might clarify some of your ideas about the world you live in. But I honestly don't really care. Authoritarian nationalists aren't my cup of tea at all.

I don't agree that you are highly patriotic. I think you are highly nationalistic, but extremely unpatriotic. If you were a patriot, you would put your nation's & fellow citizens welbeing above all else. Seeing as your nation is build upon free cpeech and freedom of expression, you wouldn't advocate the execution of dissidents. Rather, you would lay down your life in defence of their right to express themselves, regardless of whether you agree with their methods or not. You are preaching the opposite of your country's ideals. It doesn't get much more unpatriotic than that.

I think it is ok. Once you take precautions and don't burn everything down. A flag for some is symbol for everything that a country stands for-but if there is consensus that the principles and ideals of that country have been purposely been violated then burn away. End of the day its a peice of cloth... not the holy grail.

Flag burning is the worse thing ever its just to much hatin on the flag burner part.

Burning the flag is a perfectly valid form of protest, and thus should be protected. In the U.S., if a flag is ever too damaged for repair, one must dispose of it in the proper ceremony, which normally involves burning it. This is according to the Flag Code of the United States.

Therefore, if you feel that the government has defiled the flag, you are obligated to either clean it, or, in cases where you feel that the government has defiled it beyond all repair, you are required to destroy it, preferably with fire.

Flag burning is not defacing the flag. If you want to go after those who deface the flag, go after people who have flag clothing, or make flag napkins or plates. All of those are forbidden under the Flag Code.

Surely the reason that flag burning is treasonous in the U.S. is that in order to become a U.S. citizen, you have to swear allegiance to "the flag."

"The flag" is the stars and stripes, and having sworn allegiance to it, burning any image of "the flag" is utter disrespect to your previously sworn oath.

To become a U.K. citizen you have to swear allegiance to the Queen, and defacing the image or person of the queen is treated similarly as treason.

I think it is really daft to swear allegiance to an inanimate object, but each to their own.

I also think it is really daft to argue to this degree over an inanimate object, but again, each to their own.

Surely the reason that flag burning is treasonous in the U.S. is that in order to become a U.S. citizen, you have to swear allegiance to "the flag."

No you don't. All you have to do is be born in the U.S., or pass a test.

What's the opinion on setting fire to flags? Is it OK to burn a flag? Should it?
As much as I detest it I can not put a phisical symbol above the freedom that it represents

I refuse to desicrate what the flag stands for even to protect the symbol

Flag burning is offensive to people and country it represents..i detest the idea and wouldnt spit on a flag burner if they were on fire.

yeah burn it...no problem..

but I will make sure that some nationalists stand around to beat the crap out of those burning my flag...

You guys are really genuinely weird about this. I'm pretty sure I could use a Union Jack on a camp fire if I ran out of fuel without losing too much sleep at night. Even if I did have rabidly nationalistic feelings about the UK, the flag was probably made in China anyway... (Bill Hicks, updated for the new global economy).

Seriously, though, what's the big deal?

Flag burning is offensive to people and country it represents..i detest the idea and wouldnt spit on a flag burner if they were on fire.

Seems a bit harsh

I agree with Free Soviets. Flagburning is fun for all the family.

No you don't. All you have to do is be born in the U.S., or pass a test.
But I thought once you had passed the test you had to swear allegiance to the flag. Like in the end of Short Circuit 2. Has that changed? If so who changed it?

Seems a bit harsh

In fairness spitting probably wouldn't do much good unless it was a pretty small fire. Were I to inadvertantly set myself on fire as a result of my flag-burning activities I'd hardly be running around yelling "spit on me, for the love of God SPIT ON ME"

Whenever I see the flag I think of the people who died to preserve it. Then seeing it burned by our own citizens is like a slap in the face by your own child.

Whenever I see the flag I think of the people who died to preserve it. Then seeing it burned by our own citizens is like a slap in the face by your own child.

i concur

In fairness spitting probably wouldn't do much good unless it was a pretty small fire. Were I to inadvertantly set myself on fire as a result of my flag-burning activities I'd hardly be running around yelling "spit on me, for the love of God SPIT ON ME"

Thats the first post to make me laugh involuntarily today :p

Whenever I see the flag I think of the people who died to preserve it. Then seeing it burned by our own citizens is like a slap in the face by your own child.

They died to preserve what the flag stands for which in many cases includes freedom.

Whenever I see the flag I think of the people who died to preserve it. Then seeing it burned by our own citizens is like a slap in the face by your own child.
I agree but I still feel that the ideals the flag stands for is above the physical symbol

I refuse to desicrate it even to save the phisical manifistation

They died to preserve what the flag stands for which in many cases includes freedom.
Exactly as much as I detest flag burning the ideals it stands for are more important

Whenever I see the flag I think of the people who died to preserve it. Then seeing it burned by our own citizens is like a slap in the face by your own child.
Just like whenever I see certain flags, I think about untranationalistic, violent xenophobes... Or even neo nazis. Depends on the nation.
The US flag always makes me think of fundie rightwingers and a genocidal forign policy. The Union Jack makes me think of boneheads.

They died to preserve what the flag stands for which in many cases includes freedom.

They could find something else to burn. Just because the bible has its faults and a few contradictions doesn't mean I'm going to round them up and set them ablaze.

There are better ways to protest.

They could find something else to burn. Just because the bible has its faults and a few contradictions doesn't mean I'm going to round them up and set them ablaze.

There are better ways to protest.

There may be better ways but that doesnt give us reason to stop flag burning. Its the protestors choice

There may be better ways but that doesnt give us reason to stop flag burning. Its the protestors choice

They have the right to burn the flag, but they should have more taste than that.

They have the right to burn the flag, but they should have more taste than that.
That I can absolutly agree with :fluffle:

That I can absolutly agree with :fluffle:

I haven't seen the word "agreed" on this forum in a long time ;)

But I thought once you had passed the test you had to swear allegiance to the flag. Like in the end of Short Circuit 2. Has that changed? If so who changed it?
I swear allegiance to a country, not a piece of cloth.

They have the right to burn the flag, but they should have more taste than that.

A protestor aims to bring attention to their cause. Many see the burning of a flag as a good way to shock people into paying attention. Maybe it is distasteful but for some it is necessary

I swear allegiance to a country, not a piece of cloth.

That piece of cloth represents the countries past, present, and future. So basically when someone burns a flag they might as well be shouting "death to America" as well.

That piece of cloth represents the countries past, present, and future. So basically when someone burns a flag they might as well be shouting "death to America" as well.
Which is protected free speech. Thanks for summing up the majority opinion in Texas v. Johnson for us all.

That piece of cloth represents the countries past, present, and future. So basically when someone burns a flag they might as well be shouting "death to America" as well.

For you the flag represents all the good in your country but some may see it symbolising the bad parts as well

As a Boy Scout, I retired easily several hundred flags - some not even US or Wisconsin flags. I became quite accustomed to the practice of burning them. Now I do not even regard flags as objects to be retired with honor. They are simply pieces of cloth with a design on them.

I have written letters to both of my state senators to keep flag desecration legal because the issue is currently in a committee discussion in the US Senate. And recently, although I have never yet burned a flag, I have had the urge to burn flags. In fact, I recently set a small goal for myself. I want to earn the world record for burning the most flags in one sitting. I guess it is appropriate that I am moving to Madison in a couple weeks. Sure, I may never actually fulfill my goal, but nevertheless it is still my goal. It should not be terribly difficult. I just searched the Guinness Book of World Records online and found no previous record.

My statement would not necessarily be against the country. It would merely be a show that flags are insignificant. Patriotism is demonstrated nationalism, and nationalism causes wars.

I understand that I may have upset people with this response. I have generally been rather well-respected in this forum. If you would like to comment or question my goal civilly, then please feel free to do so.

Which is protected free speech.

Which is why although I disagree with it, I'll defend their right to say it. Although I wouldn't mind hitting them with a belt wink

Legal. Let whoever wants to argue whether the flag represents the Constitution or the current government; it's just a piece of cloth, as long as it's your own property who cares, and if you talk about patriotism, let me just give a resounding "Fuck That" as NOBODY has any obligation to support their country.

Wow... I put up what many people would find shocking and return several hours later only to find that the thread had died. :p

By the way, I have already led a similar discussion with a poll on http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=380133.

I have been brought up with the belief that only Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts, and veterans of foreign wars can burn the American flag, but it is known as retiring it, such as when it gets torn, touches the ground (not so much nowadays, as to save money and resources). Anyone else does it, and I see it as an act of defiance, and disrespect to the ones who GAVE THEIR LIVES and devastated the lives of their families to protect the fact that we even have a flag to display.

What's the opinion on setting fire to flags? Is it OK to burn a flag? Should it?

I imagine to many people it would be akin to spitting on the pope. Just plain disrespectful.

I have been brought up with the belief that only Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts, and veterans of foreign wars can burn the American flag, but it is known as retiring it, such as when it gets torn, touches the ground (not so much nowadays, as to save money and resources). Anyone else does it, and I see it as an act of defiance, and disrespect to the ones who GAVE THEIR LIVES and devastated the lives of their families to protect the fact that we even have a flag to display.

Strangely enough, as I understand it, flag burning is legal if you are "retiring" a flag. Yet flag burning as a sign of protest is illegal.

Apparently, it all depends on what you are thinking when you burn a flag. To be safe, don't burn any flags, or you may be sent to jail for Thinking Bad Thoughts.

Strangely enough, as I understand it, flag burning is legal if you are "retiring" a flag. Yet flag burning as a sign of protest is illegal.

Apparently, it all depends on what you are thinking when you burn a flag. To be safe, don't burn any flags, or you may be sent to jail for Thinking Bad Thoughts.
No, burning a flag in protest is not illegal.


Though the bills that tried to ban it had the funniest legal clause in it. Flag burning was illegal ONLY IF it was done in such a manner as to cause a risk of public disorder.

That's a wonderful bit of logic right there...

Maybe I'm just the most infamous pyromaniac around here, but I personally think that burning flags is awesome.

Yeah, I've broken my nose four or five times. I'd be willing to break it again to burn the flag and start a riot.

I imagine to many people it would be akin to spitting on the pope.

fun for the whole family?

I have a right to burn a flag, and considering how many crimes against humanity they have committed in recent (the last 60) years, where's an American flag and a lighter when you need it?

for those who find burning national flags disrespectful, abhorrent etc. you could always take up burning effigies of the people your protests are directed at then you could all feel warm and fuzzy in not having to disrespect the flag
;-)

for those who find burning national flags disrespectful, abhorrent etc. you could always take up burning effigies of the people your protests are directed at then you could all feel warm and fuzzy in not having to disrespect the flag
;-)

Effigies of Bush are so expensive these days. Ever since the Iraq war, demand has skyrocketed :D

Its alright (I guess) for people in other countries to do, but people in the united states (especially citizens) should get the fuck out. You goddamn freeloading whiners.

This is going to require you to think, but see if you can stay with me here.

We're going to go on a little ride into philosophy-land. To which you might say, "Philosophy?! What does that have to do with government and politics?" To which I would say "You're fucking kidding me right?"

Okay, so you have a flag that you use to visually identify with your nation. You burn it. Who cares? It's a peice of cloth. Ah! But you say "That flag represents Freedom, If you burn that flag you are metaphorically burning Freedom!"

And to that I say, "Ain't that Ironic? That a person would have the FREEDOM to destroy a symbol of Freedom?"

Now this is the part where most people get lost. Try and stay with me here.

The flag is indeed representative of freedom. As such, one should have the freedom to burn that symbol. As soon as one makes a law that restricts the free expression of burning a peice of cloth that represents freedom, the flag NO LONGER REPRESENTS FREEDOM.

When you tell people that it is illegal to perform a victemless crime on a peice of property that THEY OWN (I assume that they bought the flag, if sombody is burning a flag that sombody else owns without their concent, that would be arson.) then you have effectivly done MORE HARM to the symbol than any protester could do.

And so, the flag, in it's representation of freedom, is like the Phoenix-- It rises from the ashes. When it's legal for you to desecrate it, it represents freedom. When it becomes illegal to desecrate it, it is meaningless.

for those who find burning national flags disrespectful, abhorrent etc. you could always take up burning effigies of the people your protests are directed at then you could all feel warm and fuzzy in not having to disrespect the flag
;-)

See post 130 please.

I have been brought up with the belief that only Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts, and veterans of foreign wars can burn the American flag, but it is known as retiring it, such as when it gets torn, touches the ground.

I'm an Eagle Scout. I've retired many flags. Anybody can retire a flag. It's just a ceremony. You don't have to "be" sombody in order to do it. It's a shame that more people DON'T know how to do it.

Anyone else does it, and I see it as an act of defiance, and disrespect to the ones who GAVE THEIR LIVES and devastated the lives of their families to protect the fact that we even have a flag to display.

Do you like Bill Hicks? He has a bit about this whole thing.
"So how about that whole flag burning thing? Did that bring up a bunch of f***ing RETARDED emotions? 'Oh my god they said you can burn the FLAG THEY WANT TO BURN THE FLAG' *slaps face* No... they didn't say they want to burn the flag they said that maybe if a guy happens to burn a flag he shouldn't have to go to jail... for a f***ing year. 'You know my daddy died for that flag!' Oh really? That's funny, cause I bought mine... Got it at K-Mart! Aisle three! 'My daddy died in Korea for that flag!' Really? Wow! Cause mine's made in Korea! ... he didn't die for the flag, it's a peice of cloth... he died for what the flag represents, like the freedom... TO BURN THE F**KING FLAG. And that, as my freind jimmy pineapple would say, 'Case F***ing Closed.'"

I also would like to refer you to post number 130.

Fire makes Rotovia cry... :(

I'm an Eagle Scout. ...
I also would like to refer you to post number 130.

I'm an Eagle Scout, too. And while we're in the mood of referals, I would like to refer you to post number 117.

fun for the whole family?

:D