NationStates Jolt Archive


Where does the right to speak your mind end?

Eutrusca
16-08-2005, 21:01
COMMENTARY: It's sometimes difficult to know where the right to speak your mind ends and a danger to society begins. This article sheds some interesting light on this difficult subject. Your comments are solicited. :)


What You Can't Say Will Hurt You (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/15/opinion/15stone.html?th&emc=th)


By GEOFFREY R. STONE
Published: August 15, 2005
Chicago

ON Aug. 5, Prime Minister Tony Blair of Britain announced his intention to carry out a series of new antiterrorism measures, including deporting foreign nationals who justify the use of "violence to further a person's beliefs"; authorizing the denaturalization of British citizens who engage in "extremism"; and legislating a new "offense of condoning or glorifying terrorism."

After the July 7 bombings in London, it is understandable that Mr. Blair would want to deal firmly with those who incite violence. Although the loss of life and property caused by the Sept. 11 attacks far exceeded that in London, the United States was at least spared the constitutional dilemma of having to deal with a situation in which people in the United States encouraged American citizens to take part in the violence. But suppose that had been the case on Sept. 11, or suppose such a situation were to arise in the future. Would we respond any differently than the British?

The United States has a long and unfortunate history of overreacting to the fears and anxieties of wartime and excessively restricting the freedom of speech. This was so, for example, in 1798, when the United States was on the verge of war with France, and during the First World War. In both instances, the United States made it unlawful for any person to criticize the president, Congress or the government. Of course, Mr. Blair is not calling for such a far-reaching ban on seditious utterance. Rather, he is targeting only speech that glorifies or justifies acts of terrorism. On its face, this seems sensible.

But as Supreme Court Justice Felix Frankfurter noted in 1951, speech that extols political violence is often "coupled" with sharp "criticism of defects in our society." For that reason, Justice Frankfurter said, there is an important public interest "in granting freedom to speak their minds" even to those who advocate the use of force to bring about political change. A democratic society must protect itself against violent attack, but it cannot do so by preventing its citizens from hearing even sinister criticism that defends the use of violence.

The Supreme Court recognized this as early as the Second World War. In the early 1940's, the American government instituted a series of denaturalization proceedings against foreign-born German-Americans who supported Nazi doctrines or were active in the German-American Bund, a pro-Nazi group. The Supreme Court held that these actions were unconstitutional, explaining that an individual cannot be denaturalized for making "sinister-sounding" statements. The court sharply distinguished between radical dissent, which is protected by the First Amendment, and "exhortation calling for present violent action which creates a clear and present danger," which is not.

This conclusion was the fruit of a bitter American experience: the ferocious Red Scare of 1919-1920 had already amply demonstrated the dangers of the kind of open-ended approach Mr. Blair proposes.

In the spring of 1919, radical groups began calling for a communist upheaval in the United States. On April 29, a bomb arrived at the office of the Seattle mayor, whose city was embroiled in a violent labor confrontation. The following day, a bomb exploded at the home of a former United States senator in Atlanta, injuring two people. Two days later, 34 bombs were discovered in the mail system in New York.

They were addressed to Attorney General A. Mitchell Palmer, Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, John D. Rockefeller and other prominent Americans. Newspapers across the nation warned that these events were mere "dress rehearsals" for what was to come.

On June 2, bombs exploded simultaneously in eight cities, killing several people. Attorney General Palmer condemned the bombings as an "attempt of the anarchist element in the population to terrorize the country," and the New York Tribune warned that thousands of radicals, "red-soaked in the doctrines of Bolshevism," were clamoring for "a general red revolution in America."

Attorney General Palmer established the General Intelligence Division within the Bureau of Investigation and appointed a young J. Edgar Hoover to gather and coordinate information about radical activities. Hoover quickly created an elaborate card system including the names of more than 200,000 individuals suspected of radical activities, associations, or beliefs.

On Jan. 2, 1920, the government rounded up an additional 4,000 suspected radicals in a series of raids in 33 cities. American citizens were turned over to local authorities for prosecution; aliens were held for deportation, and 3,000 were promptly deported. As the Christian Science Monitor observed at the time, "what appeared to be an excess of radicalism" was met with "an excess of suppression."

By the spring of 1920, America returned to its senses, and the civil liberties movement began. As Yale president Charles Seymour wrote in a 1942 essay in the New York Times, the best way to avoid repeating the mistakes of the past is to foster a "public opinion which accords with the spirit of the First Amendment." It was this spirit that led to the Supreme Court's opinions during the Second World War.

Mr. Blair would do well to remember this chapter in American history. The citizens of a democracy must be free to hear even the most intemperate and inflammatory criticism of their nation's policies and practices, unless it expressly calls for immediate violent action and creates a clear danger that such actions will occur imminently. Mere glorification or justification of violence is not sufficient to remove expression from the protection of the First Amendment.

As Judge Learned Hand explained more than 80 years ago, political or religious agitation, by the very "passions it arouses," may "stimulate men to the violation of law." But to equate such agitation with express incitement to violent action, he insisted, is to disregard an elemental "safeguard of free government." Mr. Blair should consider Judge Hand's conclusion, which was that the distinction between express incitement of law violation and mere glorification or justification of such action "is not a scholastic subterfuge, but a hard-bought acquisition in the fight for freedom."
Fass
16-08-2005, 21:11
"authorizing the denaturalization of British citizens who engage in "extremism";"

This may well be a human rights violation, and could put the UK before the European Court of Human Rights (http://www.echr.coe.int/echr).

Article 9.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

Article 15.
(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.
Santa Barbara
16-08-2005, 21:15
To be honest, there is no finite limit to my right to speak my mind! :p
Ankhmet
16-08-2005, 21:18
The Government is doing something to change it's participation in human rights law.
Brians Test
16-08-2005, 21:22
I would say that the right to speak one's mind ends when it impedes on the rights of another.
The Orthodox Synod
16-08-2005, 21:32
such is relative.
Druidville
16-08-2005, 21:35
Your right to speak does not assure I will listen.

I'll be over here, with the headphones on. :)
Undelia
16-08-2005, 21:36
Everyone has the natural right to speak their mind, as long as it is doesn’t directly harm others.
Two examples of directly harming others are, shouting “fire” in a crowded building and seriously planning a violent act with the resources to carry it out.
Colodia
16-08-2005, 21:37
Apparently, it's when you have a girlfriend.

"Do these pants make me look fat?"

"Dammit girl, it's your FAT that makes you look fat! Not your pants! Quit blaming the pants! They did nothing to you!"
Laerod
16-08-2005, 21:38
You have the right to speak your mind. This right does not allow you to call for criminal action to be taken, knowingly insult people maliciously verbally or in written form, or hold up a symbol that has been banned for good reason.
Jenrak
16-08-2005, 21:49
Apparently, it's when you have a girlfriend.

"Do these pants make me look fat?"

"Dammit girl, it's your FAT that makes you look fat! Not your pants! Quit blaming the pants! They did nothing to you!"

I applaud you.
Sinuhue
16-08-2005, 21:51
The same question is being asked in relation to Nation States here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=438311).
Sinuhue
16-08-2005, 21:51
I applaud you.
For now being single. :D
Dobbsworld
16-08-2005, 21:52
In Canada, the right to speak your mind ends at promoting hatred.

Luckily for us.
Undelia
16-08-2005, 21:55
In Canada, the right to speak your mind ends at promoting hatred.
Ugh. Hate speech laws disgust me to no end. It just seems wrong to jail people for an opinion. Besides, who defines hate? Government officials? Woohooo, I have a lot of confidence in them.
Dobbsworld
16-08-2005, 21:58
Ugh. Hate speech laws disgust me to no end. It just seems wrong to jail people for an opinion. Besides, who defines hate? Government officials? Woohooo, I have a lot of confidence in them.
Yeah? Well, it works for us. Different strokes for different folks, and all that.
Laerod
16-08-2005, 21:59
Ugh. Hate speech laws disgust me to no end. It just seems wrong to jail people for an opinion. Besides, who defines hate? Government officials? Woohooo, I have a lot of confidence in them.The reason hate speech laws are around is because there's laws prohibiting offensive behavior too. You can get fined for insulting a police officer in Germany while they're on duty. I don't see anything wrong with that.
Kimberly Ann Sanchez
16-08-2005, 22:21
"sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me"

what morbid little bully thought of that saying!?
Eutrusca
16-08-2005, 22:23
Apparently, it's when you have a girlfriend.

"Do these pants make me look fat?"

"Dammit girl, it's your FAT that makes you look fat! Not your pants! Quit blaming the pants! They did nothing to you!"
ROFLMAO!! Yeah, that's it ... get your pecker super-glued to your thigh one night ... I dare ya! LOL!
Undelia
16-08-2005, 22:28
The reason hate speech laws are around is because there's laws prohibiting offensive behavior too. You can get fined for insulting a police officer in Germany while they're on duty. I don't see anything wrong with that.
Here in the US, you can’t get fined for insulting a police officer. Our policy is that you can’t breach the peace of a peace officer. It seems kind of creepy not to be able to criticize an official of the government.
Yeah? Well, it works for us. Different strokes for different folks, and all that.
Denying the natural right to freedom of speech is always wrong, whether a majority of the populace agrees with it or not. Criminalizing something just because you don’t like it sets a dangerous precedent. It is something all nations are guilty of, and I wish they’d realize how petty it is.
Dobbsworld
16-08-2005, 22:35
Denying the natural right to freedom of speech is always wrong, whether a majority of the populace agrees with it or not. Criminalizing something just because you don’t like it sets a dangerous precedent. It is something all nations are guilty of, and I wish they’d realize how petty it is.
So says you, and I don't agree. I'd sooner be protected from enduring the bile of racists, homophobes, and garden-variety nazis. A chacun son gout.
The Black Forrest
16-08-2005, 22:46
Never.

Well as as long as you aren't shouting fire in a movie house or yelling let's kill that guy!

Hmmmm why did I think of that move the American President when I read this? ;)

"....America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say "You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating, at the top of his lungs, that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. You want to claim this land as the land of the free, then the symbol of your country can't just be a flag; the symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest." Show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then you can stand up and sing about the land of the free..."
-- President Sheppard
Tropical Montana
16-08-2005, 22:51
ON Aug. 5, Prime Minister Tony Blair of Britain announced his intention to carry out a series of new antiterrorism measures, including deporting foreign nationals who justify the use of "violence to further a person's beliefs"; authorizing the denaturalization of British citizens who engage in "extremism"; and legislating a new "offense of condoning or glorifying terrorism."

I agree that a wide open term like "extremism" leaves far too wide a door open for abuse. That said....


But as Supreme Court Justice Felix Frankfurter noted in 1951, speech that extols political violence is often "coupled" with sharp "criticism of defects in our society." For that reason, Justice Frankfurter said, there is an important public interest "in granting freedom to speak their minds" even to those who advocate the use of force to bring about political change.

...i cant help but notice that the quotation marks do NOT include the part about advocating violence. That has been added by the article author.

A democratic society must protect itself against violent attack, but it cannot do so by preventing its citizens from hearing even sinister criticism that defends the use of violence.

i agree with the bold part, but do not agree that the unbold necessarily follows.

The court sharply distinguished between radical dissent, which is protected by the First Amendment, and "exhortation calling for present violent action which creates a clear and present danger," which is not.

Yes, that's my point. i agree with the Supreme Court.

On April 29, a bomb arrived at the office of the Seattle mayor, whose city was embroiled in a violent labor confrontation. The following day, a bomb exploded at the home of a former United States senator in Atlanta, injuring two people. Two days later, 34 bombs were discovered in the mail system in New York. ...


On June 2, bombs exploded simultaneously in eight cities, killing several people.

I am ashamed to say that i did not know about the bombs. I did know about the 'witch hunt' that went on for Communists.


As Judge Learned Hand explained more than 80 years ago, political or religious agitation, by the very "passions it arouses," may "stimulate men to the violation of law." But to equate such agitation with express incitement to violent action, he insisted, is to disregard an elemental "safeguard of free government."

as long as they don't say 'go do violence' or 'go kill so-and-so' or 'go set off bombs'. If they say anything like that, i don't think it should be legal. Sure, people might get riled up enough and do violence without your having specifically told them to do so. Agreed. But that does not entitle you to tell them to go do so.

Mr. Blair should consider Judge Hand's conclusion, which was that the distinction between express incitement of law violation and mere glorification or justification of such action "is not a scholastic subterfuge, but a hard-bought acquisition in the fight for freedom."


Impassioned speech, even hateful speech I would defend as part of the right to free speech. If someone interprets what you say to mean they should commit violence, that's on them. But if you actually SAY the words that mean 'go do violence', then it's on you.

Just like in american laws on murder. If you say 'Boy I hate my husband, I wish he were dead. The world would be a better place if he were dead' it's much different than saying 'I want you to kill my husband. i will pay you a sum of so many virgins if you do'

Do you see my point, Eutrusca?

That's my take on it.
And Under BOBBY
16-08-2005, 22:52
THe right to speak your mind ends when you believe and want to say something that i disagree with. You can basically say anything you want, that i agree with!!!
Laerod
16-08-2005, 23:01
Here in the US, you can’t get fined for insulting a police officer. Our policy is that you can’t breach the peace of a peace officer. It seems kind of creepy not to be able to criticize an official of the government.
You're not allowed to insult them without getting away with it. You can criticize them quite well. Criticism isn't an insult unless you use profanity.

Denying the natural right to freedom of speech is always wrong, whether a majority of the populace agrees with it or not. Criminalizing something just because you don’t like it sets a dangerous precedent. It is something all nations are guilty of, and I wish they’d realize how petty it is.Teehee. I don't like murder... Does that set a dangerous precedent? I
Gartref
17-08-2005, 02:06
Where does the right to speak your mind end?

At age 55, Eutrusca. :)
Undelia
17-08-2005, 02:08
You're not allowed to insult them without getting away with it. You can criticize them quite well. Criticism isn't an insult unless you use profanity.
Teehee. I don't like murder... Does that set a dangerous precedent? I
Murder is against the law because it directly harms another human being, undeniably.
Jenrak
17-08-2005, 02:10
I agre with Undelia, but sometimes murder can be justified.
Lotus Puppy
17-08-2005, 05:14
"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

-Voltaire

Words to live by. There is a difference between the act of violence, and the justification for it. It is fine if a government wants to keep an extra eye on someone who may seem a bit looney, for it doesn't deprive them of their God-given right of speech. For if this right is deprived, a free, prosperous, and cosmopolitan society like Britain can turn into a society of shackles if the wrong choice of governments is ever made. Free speech is one of the strongest institutions to protect against this kind of thing. For the same reasons, this is why I detest the "Incitement of Hatred" laws in Europe, the blantant censorship in many East Asian societies, and to a lesser extent, the USA PATRIOT act here in the US (though that one doesn't go as far as to actually punish speech).