NationStates Jolt Archive

Let's get some ideas into the open about just what can be done to stop the epidemic of disease, poverty, famine, and civil war that continues to ravage Sub-Saharan Africa.

Nations around the world have been donating billions to Africa every year for at least 30 years. In addition, the poorest nations have had much their international debt to the G8 cancelled. Also, in the 1970's (I believe) there was an initiative to introduce industrialism to Africa. Since there was little world demand for African manufactured goods (seeing as how SE Asia can make them more cheaply), the factories now sit derelict and idle. Despite billions of dollars of foreign investment, and food aid by a multitude of organizations, Africa remains poor.

Therefore, simply throwing money & food their way, or even helping them build industrial infrastructure, is not a solution.

The UN, other organizations, and charities, have all been sending money, food, and materiel aid to Africa. In such war-torn countries as Somalia, local warlords hoard the food aid given to them, in order to profit from the turmoil among the populace. UN military intervention in Somalia failed, largely because the warlords continued to do battle with UN Peacekeepers, and in the process, the inevitable civilian casualties associated with urban warfare caused the UN to pull out. In some nations, relative political stability is achieved by a totalitarian leadership, and many a despot cares little for his people.

Therefore, military interventionism is not a viable solution, unless the more powerful UN nations can summon the political will (probably not going to happen), and the UN can successfully "win over" the African people (probably going to turn into an Iraq-like mess).

AIDS continues to ravage Central and Southern Africa. In nations such as Botswana, a staggering 30% of the population has been placed on Death Row by this disease. There is no known cure, and government initiatives to promote education about STD's have been only partly successful. There also is the lurking specter of Ebola, a disease that kills 80-90% of its victims, and both spreads and kill much more quickly than AIDS.

(The reason Ebola is not a greater threat than it is, is because it is said to have killed off entire villiages so quickly that it had no time to spread)

In a nutshell, all attempts to help Africa struggle out of poverty have failed.

-Donated money disappears almost instantly
-Donated food is not nearly enough to keep up with the need.
-Local warlords profit from civil unrest, therefore doing all the can to hinder relief efforts.
-Despotic leaders make war upon their neigbors, or on resistance members at home, instead of attempting to improve the lives of the general populace.
-An initiative to build industrial infrastructure failed, and instead placed the African nations involved in debt to their investors.
-AIDS and other diseases continue to ravage the population
-(One I did not mention above): Families continue to have too many children than they can feed and care for. Additionally, due to war, famine, disease, etc., a large number of African children are orphans.


Now, this is not to say that these problems don't exist elsewhere, but nowhere else do these problems all occur simultaneously, at such a scale, and over many generations. If anyone has any ideas on what can be done to make serious progress in helping Africa overcome its problems, let's hear it.

Let them live like they are livin dont help them help the people in your country like the homeless or the kids with no food

:rolleyes:

re-colonize, Puerto Rico style

Yes, re-colonisation is the only viable option.

We need to get rid of the corrupt dictatorships in Africa by what ever means necessary before we even think about trying to improve the conditions of the common person. Without a change of regime, all Aid will simply go to swiss bank accounts and superyachts.

Secondly, after the change of regime, we need to invest in long term strategies, such as teaching the farmers how to farm in their area. In Zimbabwe, ever since Mugabe killed all the skilled white farmers, food production has fallen to an all time low, because the black farmers were only peasants, and do not have a clue how to farm! The west needs to go in and train people intensive farming methods and make equipment cheaper, using loans (for example the Green Revolution in India). This will get rid of the smaller farmers, but will ultimately lead to greater prosperity to the country as a whole.

Thridly, trade links need to be set up, not necessarly fair trade, but free trade would greatly help African development.

Something I forgot to mention:

Along with the industrial initiative came a program to train and equip farmers with modern technology and techniques. After about 2 harvests, the soil was so depleted that it blew away, and now desertification of once-arable land is yet another problem for the list.

Let them live like they are livin dont help them help the people in your country like the homeless or the kids with no food

Yes, and this DOESN'T create West-hating terrorists...

Yes, and this DOESN'T create West-hating terrorists...

WHO CARES!

nuke them all, I say.

Yes, and this DOESN'T create West-hating terrorists...
So? If the starving Africans want to swim across the ocean and kill us, bring it on. The only terrorists I care about are the ones that scream vengenance for Allah, and tend to arise from the middle and higher classes.

We dont need to do anything about africa. We should be working on our own nation, not others.

We dont need to do anything about africa. We should be working on our own nation, not others.

Agreed...but if we had to do something, what would your suggestion be?

We dont need to do anything about africa. We should be working on our own nation, not others.

The world is too small to ignore an entire continent. Quite frankly, someone else's problem today could well be yours tomorrow.

I never knew there was such ignorance on NS :rolleyes:

I never knew there was such ignorance on NS :rolleyes:
I did!

The World would be better off if everyone minded there own business and take care of themselves instead of some other people in Africa what have they gave you? My money only will go to the elderly people that lived their life and now are at a retirement home

Homieville, you really need to rethink that last statement.

The world is too small to ignore an entire continent. Quite frankly, someone else's problem today could well be yours tomorrow.

Unless they get angry and get nukes, I dont see how their problem could be mine, ever. They arent a signifigant import or export market. They seem to be a vacuum, nothing gets returned when you throw things at it.

To the post above the quote, I dont believe anything can be done for africa. If I was forced to try something, it would be selective military strikes, to destroy the offensive forces of african militaries. Declare all current wars in africa over, and any aggressive moves as acts of war, to be followed by more bombing of military forces.

Then, government buildings and personnel(sp?) would be targeted, in oppressive and/or genocidal governments. Revolutions would be encouraged and aided, but only if they were secular, capitalistic governments who we liked, and could manipulate to do what we felt was right.

But again, I would much prefer doing nothing.

Homieville, you really need to rethink that last statement.

Why? I see nothing wrong with it.

Why? I see nothing wrong with it.

Thank you my friend

The World would be better off if everyone minded there own business and take care of themselves instead of some other people in Africa what have they gave you? My money only will go to the elderly people that lived their life and now are at a retirement home
No the world would be a fucked up hell hole if everyone only looked after themselves! Even if all of you are the fucked up selfish idiots you appear to be by not caring about your fellow man eventually it will be your problem once new diseases start breeding and because of selfish idiots who won't give a shit because making drugs for poor people doesn't make a profit it won't be stopped until it ends up in the west and then it won't be able to be eradicated again because of selfish idiots who won't help disease.
[/rant]

Sure africa has fucked up dictatorships but that shouldn't stop you from giving to NGOs who know about the governments and know how to get to those who need them.

We dont need to do anything about africa. We should be working on our own nation, not others.

I agree with 100% . in the USA Money is going to Africa already instead of helping Africa everyone get healthcare in the US.

These short-term, tunnel vision views is what is going to destroy the world!

Can't you see? Look at the long term, having Africa is benficial to everyone! Getting rid of the corrupt governments and developing Africa will help to bring stability to the world not only in warfare, but also in economies. Perhaps we will be able to stop the oil price hikes...

Oh well...I guess only realists and long term visionists can see this though, selfish bastards can't.

I don't think that we should do anything at the moment with Africa, we have other problems to worry about abroad and at home here in the USA. I think the people in Africa are the ones to blame for this mess anyway by not having the motivation or willpower to do anything about their countries. They are the ones to blame, nobody else.

These short-term, tunnel vision views is what is going to destroy the world!

Can't you see? Look at the long term, having Africa is benficial to everyone! Getting rid of the corrupt governments and developing Africa will help to bring stability to the world not only in warfare, but also in economies. Perhaps we will be able to stop the oil price hikes...

Oh well...I guess only realists and long term visionists can see this though, selfish bastards can't.
If they had an once of "human decency"* they shouldn't need to look at that and just help stop people from dieing.


*after some of replies given I'm not sure Humans are all that decent.

I don't think that we should do anything at the moment with Africa, we have other problems to worry about abroad and at home here in the USA. I think the people in Africa are the ones to blame for this mess anyway by not having the motivation or willpower to do anything about their countries. They are the ones to blame, nobody else.

Agreed, in the short term we have other worries, but in the long term, what would your suggestions be?

I don't think that we should do anything at the moment with Africa, we have other problems to worry about abroad and at home here in the USA. I think the people in Africa are the ones to blame for this mess anyway by not having the motivation or willpower to do anything about their countries. They are the ones to blame, nobody else.That's ignorant, calling this post retarded would be an insult to retarded people.

Tell me would you have the motivation or will power to magicly fix your country if you had to walk 10 miles for water in the desert?

These short-term, tunnel vision views is what is going to destroy the world!

Can't you see? Look at the long term, having Africa is benficial to everyone! Getting rid of the corrupt governments and developing Africa will help to bring stability to the world not only in warfare, but also in economies. Perhaps we will be able to stop the oil price hikes...

Oh well...I guess only realists and long term visionists can see this though, selfish bastards can't.

Maybe if there was something we could magically do to help africa, this would be true. Maybe, at that. However, even if it is true, africa is still a vacuum. Nothing is signifigantly helping it. The best solution is to let them fuck each other over, hit rock bottom, have some revolutions, and work their way up.

And oil prices will be going up, period. Especially if we are spending more money on africa, than other things. Africa doesnt have signifigant oil.

That's ignorant, calling this post retarded would be an insult to retarded people.

Tell me would you have the motivation or will power to magicly fix your country if you had to walk 10 miles for water in the desert?

How is that ignorant??? It's just an opinion.

I think for the long term that something should be done, but those kinds of things take time. I don't think the USA can handle that kind of under-taking at the moment or the near future b/c of all these problems going on elsewhere that we are involved in.

We need to get rid of the corrupt dictatorships in Africa by what ever means necessary before we even think about trying to improve the conditions of the common person. Without a change of regime, all Aid will simply go to swiss bank accounts and superyachts.

Secondly, after the change of regime, we need to invest in long term strategies, such as teaching the farmers how to farm in their area. In Zimbabwe, ever since Mugabe killed all the skilled white farmers, food production has fallen to an all time low, because the black farmers were only peasants, and do not have a clue how to farm! The west needs to go in and train people intensive farming methods and make equipment cheaper, using loans (for example the Green Revolution in India). This will get rid of the smaller farmers, but will ultimately lead to greater prosperity to the country as a whole.

Thridly, trade links need to be set up, not necessarly fair trade, but free trade would greatly help African development.

Re read this, this is what i think we should do for the future...

That's ignorant, calling this post retarded would be an insult to retarded people.

Tell me would you have the motivation or will power to magicly fix your country if you had to walk 10 miles for water in the desert?

Thats not everybody. There are plenty of people in the cities, near the cities, etc, who own arms. They could have revolutions if they had enough support.

They are to blame, because its not americans, or europeans causing governmental problems. Its their own people.

If they had an once of "human decency"* they shouldn't need to look at that and just help stop people from dieing.


*after some of replies given I'm not sure Humans are all that decent.

We can spend that money to help people in our own nations not die. We have no human decency because we want to help our own nation before others?

Thats not everybody. There are plenty of people in the cities, near the cities, etc, who own arms. They could have revolutions if they had enough support.

They are to blame, because its not americans, or europeans causing governmental problems. Its their own people.


I agree, however, they would need enough support if they were going to make a differance.

These short-term, tunnel vision views is what is going to destroy the world!

Can't you see? Look at the long term, having Africa is benficial to everyone! Getting rid of the corrupt governments and developing Africa will help to bring stability to the world not only in warfare, but also in economies. Perhaps we will be able to stop the oil price hikes...

Oh well...I guess only realists and long term visionists can see this though, selfish bastards can't.

If you feel that strongly about it then grab a rifle or a bag of cash, go over there, and make the world better, then. Why get so personally insulted when other people don't view your charities with the same degree of importance as you do?

Theres lots of fucked up things in the world that I'd like to see get more money... I'd like to see a cure for cancer. I'd like to see some national healthcare. I'd like to see old people get taken care of. Africa is not even in the top 10. In fact it's right there below, 'I'll just keep my money, thanks.'

As was said before, billions of dollars get sent over there every year and nothing ever seems to improve. If people want to donate, then have at it, but don't get all judgemental on people who don't.

How is that ignorant??? It's just an opinion.

I think for the long term that something should be done, but those kinds of things take time. I don't think the USA can handle that kind of under-taking at the moment or the near future b/c of all these problems going on elsewhere that we are involved in.
It's an opinion made because of ignorance.
It's ignorant of the situation the poor people in Africa are living in. They can't just lift themselves out of poverty they need in the immediate term irrigation and to be taught better farming techniques and machinery in the longer but still short term education and medication, these need funding , funding has to come from somewhere!

Also that it's their fault they are in this mess is ignorant it's because of exploitation by rich countries and civil wars caused by different tribes being put into one nation by guess who?

If you feel that strongly about it then grab a rifle or a bag of cash, go over there, and make the world better, then. Why get so personally insulted when other people don't view your charities with the same degree of importance as you do?

Theres lots of fucked up things in the world that I'd like to see get more money... I'd like to see a cure for cancer. I'd like to see some national healthcare. I'd like to see old people get taken care of. Africa is not even in the top 10. In fact it's right there below, 'I'll just keep my money, thanks.'

As was said before, billions of dollars get sent over there every year and nothing ever seems to improve. If people want to donate, then have at it, but don't get all judgemental on people who don't.

whoa! ok...i think the point of the topic was for everyone to suggest a solution to the Africa problem. I did this, i find it incredible that people seem to muddling up a simple solution with money. I agree, i would much rather see my money spent in the UK, i hate Africa, i say nuke them all!

But, leaving these personal feelings aside, and focusing purely on how Africa could be improved, i said how i think it could. I think that is how the topic should run.

It's an opinion made because of ignorance.
It's ignorant of the situation the poor people in Africa are living in. They can't just lift themselves out of poverty they need in the immediate term irrigation and to be taught better farming techniques and machinery in the longer but still short term education and medication, these need funding , funding has to come from somewhere!

Also that it's their fault they are in this mess is ignorant it's because of exploitation by rich countries and civil wars caused by different tribes being put into one nation by guess who?

You people always gotta find a scapegoat, or something else to blame yours or someone else's problems on. Look at the facts guy, millions upon millions of dollars get sent there and nothing seems to help at all. If you think its going to then why dont you dig deep into your own pockets and donate to that "worthy" cause. I'm more concerned about whats going on in my own country than whats happening over-seas right now. Now you can spend several minutes typing your opinionated responce, or you can just choose to leave it alone, its out of both of our control anyway.

We can spend that money to help people in our own nations not die. We have no human decency because we want to help our own nation before others?
Why not take it out of your more funded then the rest of the world combined military then!? Why take funding stopping one group of people dieing so that other people die? Are "your people" supieriour to others!?

Send in major corporations to build an infrastructure for a modern economy. Roads, telephone systems, internet, factories, schools, etc. Let them hire local Africans for labor, the corporations will only provide expertise and equipment. Then let the local African people work in the factories and transport good on the roads that have been built. Tell the leaders that all financial aid will be cut off if they attempt to interfere with the normal function of schools, traffic, flow of information, and factories.

You people always gotta find a scapegoat, or something else to blame yours or someone else's problems on. Look at the facts guy, millions upon millions of dollars get sent there and nothing seems to help at all. If you think its going to then why dont you dig deep into your own pockets and donate to that "worthy" cause. I'm more concerned about whats going on in my own country than whats happening over-seas right now. Now you can spend several minutes typing your opinionated responce, or you can just choose to leave it alone, its out of both of our control anyway.show me how it's having no effect!? It's having a damned good effect just your expecting Africa to just fix as soon as you put your spare change into a bucket for charity.

i am shocked by some of the opinions i have read.

the people of sub sahelian africa are the poorest in the world, they have no chance of working themselves out of poverty whilst they are stuck in the downward spiral, even though africa has huge economic possibilities. the sad truth is that the cause of this extreme poverty is western Trans National Corporations. for instance, sierra leone. when granted independence, it was a prosperous model of british society, with a health service etc. when we left, the major source of investment switched to mining companies etc, and their employment and operational practices caused sierra leone to nose dive in terms of development. the TNCs got their dirt cheap raw materials, so they were happy.

to turn a blind eye and say 'stuff them' is hideously inhumane. however, i understand why people may be disgruntled, as the aid seems to have had no effect, but i would not blame the people of africa for poorly planned and distributed aid programmes. the best we can do is to firstly supply basic needs to individual villages. this means wells, tools, knowledge, etc.

give and man a fish, and he can feed his family for one day. give him a net, and he can feed them for a lifetime.

whoa! ok...i think the point of the topic was for everyone to suggest a solution to the Africa problem. I did this, i find it incredible that people seem to muddling up a simple solution with money. I agree, i would much rather see my money spent in the UK, i hate Africa, i say nuke them all!

But, leaving these personal feelings aside, and focusing purely on how Africa could be improved, i said how i think it could. I think that is how the topic should run.

Sorry... lets stay on track. The 'selfish bastards' thing prompted that but maybe I misread the tone :)

Anyway, I think eventually the problem will take care of itself. Look at Southeast Asia and places like India right now compared to where they were 50 years ago. It isn't a desire to help that will cause Africa to improve but the fact that large corporations will find it cheaper to build some infrastructure and exploit African workers than it is to exploit the Southeast Asian workers who will have improved their lot a little, built some corporations of their own, and will want more money.

Until then there is nothing we can do that will improve it other than get all imperialist and run the place ourselves... it's established that money and food donations don't get distributed like they should. Outside peacekeeping missions are a disaster waiting to happen. And once you get past the corrupt governments and violent environment, you still have the concept that Africa needs help from the very nations that they resent the most. I'm not sure they would fall all over themselves accepting or appreciating our help.

We dont need to do anything about africa. We should be working on our own nation, not others.


why? things are thousands of times better here already.

millions do not starve and die in 'our own nation.'

Why not take it out of your more funded then the rest of the world combined military then!? Why take funding stopping one group of people dieing so that other people die? Are "your people" supieriour to others!?

Why take money out of it? We are using it. The military isnt for killing people. While I dont agree with some conflicts we are in, the military is full of good uses. It does rescues, work in disasters, teaches people job skills and pays for their college, etc.

Our military justifies its cost, with usefulness and potential usefullness. Why throw money away in africa, instead of getting results with the military?

why? things are thousands of times better here already.

millions do not starve and die in 'our own nation.'

I dont know what your nation is, but millions do die in america, and tens or hundreds of thousands starve. Money spent here will be much better spent, then thrown away in africa.

When we have nobody in america that cant get medical treatment, when everybody has a home, and food, then we can start giving money to africa.

Why take money out of it? We are using it. The military isnt for killing people. While I dont agree with some conflicts we are in, the military is full of good uses. It does rescues, work in disasters, teaches people job skills and pays for their college, etc.

Our military justifies its cost, with usefulness and potential usefullness. Why throw money away in africa, instead of getting results with the military?


A dedicated corps of rescue workers and disaster relief crews combined with a well funded system to educate people in job skills and pay for their college educations would be a hundred times as cost-effective in doing these good and worthwhile things.

Since we have no enemies or even potential enemies against whom a large military would be useful, the military is nothing more than a horrendoulsy wasteful money sink.

Why take money out of it? We are using it. The military isnt for killing people. While I dont agree with some conflicts we are in, the military is full of good uses. It does rescues, work in disasters, teaches people job skills and pays for their college, etc.

Our military justifies its cost, with usefulness and potential usefullness. Why throw money away in africa, instead of getting results with the military?
because you don't need all that funding you could still fight wars with any country and win (apart from nuclear wars noone wins them)

And you aren't throwing your money away in Africa, the money you give is to educate, feed and dig wells it's not supposed to make them survive so they can actually do what was suggested earlier and pull themselves out of poverty.

"Everybody has asked the question, and they learned to ask it early of the abolitionists, 'What shall we do with the Negro?' I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us! Your doing with us has already played the mischief with us. Do nothing with us! If the apples will not remain on the tree of their own strength, if they are wormeaten at the core, if they are early ripe and disposed to fall, let them fall! I am not for tying or fastening them on the tree in any way, except by nature's plan, and if they will not stay there, let them fall. And if the Negro cannot stand on his own legs, let him fall also. All I ask is, give him a chance to stand on his own legs! Let him alone!"

-Frederick Douglass

Here's how I see us fixing Africa.

Currently the one thing Africa can actually produce with any ease is agriculture. Farming is a relatively simple practice that the people there can fairly easily undertake. It is irrelevant whether or not we put Africa in poverty. Instead, it is time for us to realize that our own trade practices, especially in farming, are keeping Africa from fully developing.

Case in point: The CAP, or Common Agricultural Policy for Europe. It's a method of subsidizing food production in Europe to make sure that Europe remains self-sufficient. What does that mean for Europeans? Their governments take their tax money and use it to pay farmers to sell their goods cheap enough that they can undercut any business. Tie this in with tariffs against outside farming producers and it guarantees that European farmers feed Europeans.

This sounds fine, but it inevitably causes problems for people in Africa. Europe, with its higher cost of living, would be an excellent place for Third World producers to sell crops and actually maintain a successful agricultual business rather than just subsistence farming. This, in turn, would put money into local African economies as these farmers begin to want to use the money they make to buy other things. Essentially, if the CAP were dismantled, Africa would begin to fix itself, and Europeans wouldn't lose their money to subsidize inefficient farming. In fact, if that money were given back to Europeans or put into social programs, Europe's growth rate would probably start to pick up again.

However, Europe is not the only place engaging in unfair trade practices that hurt Africa. The United States maintains the right to subsidize or put tariffs on any item for "national security" purposes. Most notoriously, the US has subsidized sugar production in Wyoming while putting tariffs against sugar imports. Sugar is another great crop for fledging farmers to grow, but they are cut off from a whole extra market where they could compete for better prices on their goods. The result is similar to the CAP. The American government spends taxpayers' dollars subsidizing the farming industry, which costs the average American money, and meanwhile the Third World farmer can't make the money he should.

If these trade practices were revised and the whole globe was given a chance at free trade, we would see three immediate positive results:

1) Governments of developed countries would no longer have to spend money subsidizing industries, which would mean more money to pay down debt, to fund social programs or to give back to the people in the form of tax cuts, depending on their political slants.

2) People in developed countries would be able to get basic items like food cheaper because there would be no tariffs stopping cheap goods from reaching their grocery stores. This in turn would leave them with more money to spend on other things and as a result would grow the economies of developed countries even more.

3) The Third World would become a market worth investing in. Farmers in the Third World would start to have disposable income, which would mean there would be demand in Africa, which would be filled by either start-up African businesses or direct foreign investment, either of which would provide jobs for more Africans, which would create a cycle of demand that would propel Africa forward.

However, this solution is not without its losers. We're talking about a mass agricultural outsourcing. This means farmers in the developed world will lose their jobs. Overall, their nations will be better for it, but they personally will suffer, much like those who lost their jobs in the Industrial Revolution due to mechanization. Remember though, we have progressive countries. There is a social safety net here for those who lose their jobs, whereas those who can't get a job in Africa starve to death. We can get the people who lose jobs here back into the workforce, which is more than African governments can do right now for a variety of reasons.

This should be a simple case of special interests. Our governments are propping up industries that can't survive on their own, which is something we as a people frown upon. Meanwhile, others are starving, another thing we frown upon. This should be a matter of forcing our farmers to play fair on the world market, yet we refuse to make it one, and as a result, Africa stays poor and our pockets are getting drained to subsidize our farmers.

I dont know what your nation is, but millions do die in america, and tens or hundreds of thousands starve. Money spent here will be much better spent, then thrown away in africa.

When we have nobody in america that cant get medical treatment, when everybody has a home, and food, then we can start giving money to africa.
that will never happen

I dont know what your nation is, but millions do die in america, and tens or hundreds of thousands starve. Money spent here will be much better spent, then thrown away in africa.

When we have nobody in america that cant get medical treatment, when everybody has a home, and food, then we can start giving money to africa.


homeless americans live much better and healthier lives than the thousands-of-times their number who starve and die in africa.

america does need reforms to its medical system, but in terms of human suffering and loss of life they are virtually a luxury and convenience in comparison to the problems faced in africa

Sorry... lets stay on track. The 'selfish bastards' thing prompted that but maybe I misread the tone :)

Anyway, I think eventually the problem will take care of itself. Look at Southeast Asia and places like India right now compared to where they were 50 years ago. It isn't a desire to help that will cause Africa to improve but the fact that large corporations will find it cheaper to build some infrastructure and exploit African workers than it is to exploit the Southeast Asian workers who will have improved their lot a little, built some corporations of their own, and will want more money.

Until then there is nothing we can do that will improve it other than get all imperialist and run the place ourselves... it's established that money and food donations don't get distributed like they should. Outside peacekeeping missions are a disaster waiting to happen. And once you get past the corrupt governments and violent environment, you still have the concept that Africa needs help from the very nations that they resent the most. I'm not sure they would fall all over themselves accepting or appreciating our help.

Yeh perhaps that was a bit strong...

I agree with you completly, you have it spot on, now hopefully in our vain hopes, people like yourselfs get into power and common sense can prevail again!

Of course India developed because of the Green Revolution in the 1950s and 60s, funded by the World Bank, it cost Billions, but look at India now, if this was scaled up to African proportions...who knows. Of course the governments need to go first!

Oh how things were much simpler under the empire...lol!

I dont know what your nation is, but millions do die in america, and tens or hundreds of thousands starve. Money spent here will be much better spent, then thrown away in africa.

When we have nobody in america that cant get medical treatment, when everybody has a home, and food, then we can start giving money to africa.

Great minds think alike

Send in major corporations to build an infrastructure for a modern economy. Roads, telephone systems, internet, factories, schools, etc. Let them hire local Africans for labor, the corporations will only provide expertise and equipment. Then let the local African people work in the factories and transport good on the roads that have been built. Tell the leaders that all financial aid will be cut off if they attempt to interfere with the normal function of schools, traffic, flow of information, and factories.


that would be all well and good,probably even work.

however,as we have seen time and time again in africa....the strong men/thugs dont exactly like to relinguish there money/power/yachts/etc.

so what then,the government could give me enormous tax credits to invest in africa,why so my investment gets stripped away like all the aid and food and charity has.never in a million years would i invest a penny.

sounds kinda cold,but it's like my friends brother,total crackhead...stealing,lying,conniving.everyone kept buying his sob stories,hell i even paid his electric bill once for him..pay me right back...haha,well after of years of him using everyone,sucking everyone dry..everyone said enough finally.he got worse,started committing crimes to support himself,got locked up and finally realized he was at the bottom,and learned..he had to clean up after himself and take SOME responsibility for his behaviour.

i fear africa is in a similar position,are you willing to send in the military everytime some thug(who i guarentee)doesnt want to let go of the golden goose that they have gotten fat on thru the misery of probably millions of there own brothers.

i for one, lost a very close friend in somalia,so i am against that option completely,the irony was he echoed alot of people here,he felt he was doing something noble and charitable,yet what was the result.
and i hate to bring up the whole..america is trying to control the world thing,but i can here it now,if we tried to intervene militarily.(which is the only option probably)big bully america is throwing it's weight around.

i wish there was something i can come up with to ease the suffering and misery of millions of innocent people,but i honestly cant think of anything.
so i will focus my energy on things i can impact in my world,that i may actually see progress or hope from.

as far as blaming the millions of innocent people for not doing anything to change there situation,maybe true,maybe not.i do think that the thugs took there cues from alot of shitty old white men.
so maybe the west has some cupability to try and rectify the situation,i just dont see it happening unfortunately.not that it would do much good if we did try to help,we have for years now to no avail.

cynical,perhaps..but probably reality.

i think change is gonna have to come from within(like the american revolution)and it sure wont be pretty. :confused:

Sorry... lets stay on track. The 'selfish bastards' thing prompted that but maybe I misread the tone :)

Anyway, I think eventually the problem will take care of itself. Look at Southeast Asia and places like India right now compared to where they were 50 years ago. It isn't a desire to help that will cause Africa to improve but the fact that large corporations will find it cheaper to build some infrastructure and exploit African workers than it is to exploit the Southeast Asian workers who will have improved their lot a little, built some corporations of their own, and will want more money.

Until then there is nothing we can do that will improve it other than get all imperialist and run the place ourselves... it's established that money and food donations don't get distributed like they should. Outside peacekeeping missions are a disaster waiting to happen. And once you get past the corrupt governments and violent environment, you still have the concept that Africa needs help from the very nations that they resent the most. I'm not sure they would fall all over themselves accepting or appreciating our help.


very astute observation..i agree

When we have nobody in america that cant get medical treatment, when everybody has a home, and food, then we can start giving money to africa.

And do you know why this will never happen? Because that would be called communism, which is against the fundemental principals of America, i.e. you get what you earn.

Also you've missed a key point when talking about the billions of aid America gives to Africa, in thatit doesn't

Last year the US handed out just under $19 million (www.oecd.org) in aid to Africa. More tax money is lost due to accounting errors within the system then that. So don't claim that Africa is any big burden to the American economy.

And 2, fine if you don't want to help them- how about not holding them back either? Because the huge trade tarrifs and subsidies handed out to big businesses (and don't kid yourself- this isn't going to family owned farms) are an abomination against God.

Case in point, the American gov handed out over $2.3 billion in subsidies to cotton farmers in 2001.

- - - - -

This may suprise you but I agree with you. Stop giving aid to Africa apart from in specific circumstances (in this I agree with Bush's millenium challenge programme).

But at the same time provide them with another, more sustainable way out- don't subsidise exports to those countries, creating markets in which local farmers can't compete- and allow them the chance to compete in developed markets.

And as a plus you'll save the over $11.7 billion in taxes and higher food prices that the American consumer has to pay.

So in effect, I'm saying- if you're gonna quit Africa- go cold turkey.

that would be all well and good,probably even work.

however,as we have seen time and time again in africa....the strong men/thugs dont exactly like to relinguish there money/power/yachts/etc.

so what then,the government could give me enormous tax credits to invest in africa,why so my investment gets stripped away like all the aid and food and charity has.never in a million years would i invest a penny.

sounds kinda cold,but it's like my friends brother,total crackhead...stealing,lying,conniving.everyone kept buying his sob stories,hell i even paid his electric bill once for him..pay me right back...haha,well after of years of him using everyone,sucking everyone dry..everyone said enough finally.he got worse,started committing crimes to support himself,got locked up and finally realized he was at the bottom,and learned..he had to clean up after himself and take SOME responsibility for his behaviour.

i fear africa is in a similar position,are you willing to send in the military everytime some thug(who i guarentee)doesnt want to let go of the golden goose that they have gotten fat on thru the misery of probably millions of there own brothers.

i for one, lost a very close friend in somalia,so i am against that option completely,the irony was he echoed alot of people here,he felt he was doing something noble and charitable,yet what was the result.
and i hate to bring up the whole..america is trying to control the world thing,but i can here it now,if we tried to intervene militarily.(which is the only option probably)big bully america is throwing it's weight around.

i wish there was something i can come up with to ease the suffering and misery of millions of innocent people,but i honestly cant think of anything.
so i will focus my energy on things i can impact in my world,that i may actually see progress or hope from.

as far as blaming the millions of innocent people for not doing anything to change there situation,maybe true,maybe not.i do think that the thugs took there cues from alot of shitty old white men.
so maybe the west has some cupability to try and rectify the situation,i just dont see it happening unfortunately.not that it would do much good if we did try to help,we have for years now to no avail.

cynical,perhaps..but probably reality.

i think change is gonna have to come from within(like the american revolution)and it sure wont be pretty. :confused:
I'm hoping the threat of removing all monetary aid to the country if the govenment interferes with progress will prevent the dictators from trying to take over the factories and schools. After all, embezelling funds from international aid is their primary source of income.

What's wrong with trade tariffs? They're common enough business between all countries. If an African nation doesn't want our goods to swamp them and wants to protect the interests of their farmers then they should throw up some trade laws and restrictions of their own.

Africa is poor for one reason, the west. The west willnt allow africa to hav trade tarrif because if they do then the aid which they survive on will be stopped. They west give africa money to improve thing like say health care as an example, but u cnt just give the aid, OHHHNO. The west demand that the money be spent on western drug produced by western companys, so cheap african drug, produce in africa that are just as effective go out of business. They story is they same for any type of aid. It is poor because westrn companys get the IMF and world bank to force free market polices on them, meaning companys like demonte for instance can buy up land hav there own farm that feed the west and give nothing bck to the africans who work it. They cannot unite as a continent to hav more political clout because the west allows devicve dictator like Mugabe to exist and often has installed them. Africa will remain poor untill either the people of they west force their goverment to take action, it will not come out of sympathy, to much money is made out of africa from debt collection(most hav paid double wot they took out already due to interest rates). Or the people of arfica are going to hav to fight for it. I think country like niger, chad etc will be the next afganistan, soon we will hav the hole of north saharan africa after us, because the west is selfish, greed, and based on a system that rewards expolation

The policy of the rich nations has not been working. Even today, when socialism has faded as a fad in African capitals, most of the governments are too corrupt or impotent to administer aid in a meaningful way. What I would do is to let the problem sort itself out. Africa has, unfortunatly, screwed itself beyond much help. In fact, the population of sub-Sahara Africa may double in less than thirty years. So my idea is to let the problem sort itself out. If anything, the most rich governments can do to help is to eliminate African subsidies and (in the case of Western Europe), extend preferential trade to all African nations, not just their former colonies.

They west give africa money to improve thing like say health care as an example, but u cnt just give the aid, OHHHNO. The west demand that the money be spent on western drug produced by western companys, so cheap african drug, produce in africa that are just as effective go out of business. They story is they same for any type of aid.

OK, I'm from the US so I'm gonna refer to that here.. but by US we could mean any Western nation.

If we give Africa money but insist they spend that money on drugs made in the US, then we're basically instead just giving Africa the drugs, right? Well, if there are cheaply made drugs, made in Africa, of exactly the same type as what we're sending then what do they need our help for?

Likely the system over there is so corrupt that its similar to what we do with food stamps... we give them a certain amount of cash to spend but give them very specific places where they can spend it, because if we didn't it would just end up getting laundered and in some dictators pocket.

Your complaint frankly doesn't make sense. If a GM representative said to me, 'I'm gonna give you $20,000 to spend on a car', would I have any business whatsoever complaining if he then told me that part of the deal is that I have to spend it on a GM made car?

Free Trade capitalism is the solution.
Western businesses need to start taking a long-term view of Africa. If they did, they would not just see resources, but new markets. Of course, part of their advertising strategy would be subtlety introducing Western culture. Why? Someone who shares your culture is more likely to buy your product. So, over time, Africans would become more exposed to western ideas like civil liberty and equality under the law. This will hopefully inspire true democratic revolutions. The businesses would, of course, supply funds to the revolutionaries, because a free society is in the best interests of their respective companies. Eventually, Africa would be made up of representative governments with free markets and civil liberties. After that, it’s only a matter of time before those nations begin to boom.

Free Trade capitalism is the solution.
Western businesses need to start taking a long-term view of Africa. If they did, they would not just see resources, but new markets. Of course, part of their advertising strategy would be subtlety introducing Western culture. Why? Someone who shares your culture is more likely to buy your product. So, over time, Africans would become more exposed to western ideas like civil liberty and equality under the law. This will hopefully inspire true democratic revolutions. The businesses would, of course, supply funds to the revolutionaries, because a free society is in the best interests of their respective companies. Eventually, Africa would be made up of representative governments with free markets and civil liberties. After that, it’s only a matter of time before those nations begin to boom.
That sounds good, but they still have no food.

That sounds good, but they still have no food.
I’m sure the famines are nothing an efficient decentralized economy can’t fix.

And do you know why this will never happen? Because that would be called communism, which is against the fundemental principals of America, i.e. you get what you earn.

Also you've missed a key point when talking about the billions of aid America gives to Africa, in thatit doesn't

Last year the US handed out just under $19 million (www.oecd.org) in aid to Africa. More tax money is lost due to accounting errors within the system then that. So don't claim that Africa is any big burden to the American economy.

And 2, fine if you don't want to help them- how about not holding them back either? Because the huge trade tarrifs and subsidies handed out to big businesses (and don't kid yourself- this isn't going to family owned farms) are an abomination against God.

Case in point, the American gov handed out over $2.3 billion in subsidies to cotton farmers in 2001.

- - - - -

This may suprise you but I agree with you. Stop giving aid to Africa apart from in specific circumstances (in this I agree with Bush's millenium challenge programme).

But at the same time provide them with another, more sustainable way out- don't subsidise exports to those countries, creating markets in which local farmers can't compete- and allow them the chance to compete in developed markets.

And as a plus you'll save the over $11.7 billion in taxes and higher food prices that the American consumer has to pay.

So in effect, I'm saying- if you're gonna quit Africa- go cold turkey.

I dont want to bring up older posts, so I'll just answer this one, the latest quote of me.

The US isnt communist, but it is socialist. Or rather, a heavily diluted mix of capitalism and socialism. We have plenty of welfare, free education, medicare, medicaid, etc. Some would like it closer to capitalism, some would like it closer to socialism. Im not going to throw an opinion here, but if we are going to start throwing money around, it should be thrown locally, where the person you throw it to you can watch use it, and use it right, and maybe even help you in the long run with it, instead of throw it so far that you dont see it, you never hear of it again, and you just have less money.

I never said the US gives billions in aid to africa. Quote? Im simply saying, aid(from government and individuals in america) should be given to the needy in america, not africa.

I dont believe in god, so dont use him against me. Tariff's have been common practice for hundreds of years. You act like we only have tariff's on africa. You are suggesting special treatment, not equal treatment.

The government panders to big buisness sometimes. We would love to get rid of things like this, but its not practical. Its like a game of civilization. I have lots of corruption, but am I going to start building courthouses in my cities, when Im trying to support my military, keep my people happy, keep up technological research, etc? I have more important things to do, unless it is a severly large economic drain.

Africa doesnt have to trade with us. Why should we trade with them, but give them special treatment over other trade partners? We should do what gets us more money. We should penalize ourselves because we are doing better than them?

Im for quitting special treatment to africa, your "cold-turkey" equals giving special treatment to them, which makes no sense.

-----------

As for the person who said that US homeless have better conditions than africans in poverty, I dont care. A nations first priority is its citizens. We should ignore people starving in america, people who cant get healthcare, because another nation cant help its poor as well as we can? Im sorry, but I'm not a globalist. We are not all one people, not that I believe in racial superiority or anything. But as americans, our duty is to americans first.

Your complaint frankly doesn't make sense. If a GM representative said to me, 'I'm gonna give you $20,000 to spend on a car', would I have any business whatsoever complaining if he then told me that part of the deal is that I have to spend it on a GM made car?

You want to buy some cars eh?

I've got the deal of a lifetime
forget those $7,000 cars you can buy elsewhere
or the $10,000 cars you can make yourself.

I've got $20,000 here for you and all you have to do is
buy the $20,000 cars that I make.

Repayments to be made on the best terms you'll get from us anyway

What could be better.

Trrrrussst in meeeee

I think no one should forget that

if you give a man a toasted sandwich he'll have a snack for that day

but give a man a toasted sandwich maker and he will be sick of toasted
sandwiches within a month

max

maybe more like 2 weeks

wow africa is in it real deep
hmmm....all we need to do is kill them and force them to cooperate :sniper:

and for the disease problem make some new towns disease free and keep it in quarintine.

Colonize! Yarr! Go in there, take all their farms, weapons, children.. etc. Then make them do it right.

What to do about Africa? Ignoring it sounds good.

Free Trade capitalism is the solution.
Western businesses need to start taking a long-term view of Africa. If they did, they would not just see resources, but new markets. Of course, part of their advertising strategy would be subtlety introducing Western culture. Why? Someone who shares your culture is more likely to buy your product. So, over time, Africans would become more exposed to western ideas like civil liberty and equality under the law. This will hopefully inspire true democratic revolutions. The businesses would, of course, supply funds to the revolutionaries, because a free society is in the best interests of their respective companies. Eventually, Africa would be made up of representative governments with free markets and civil liberties. After that, it’s only a matter of time before those nations begin to boom.
You mean just like they have been doing, but of course don't let them do the same to you, that would be shocking!!
Not that the tribal system with no fixed borders worked well for thousands of years.

You want to buy some cars eh?

I've got the deal of a lifetime
forget those $7,000 cars you can buy elsewhere
or the $10,000 cars you can make yourself.

I've got $20,000 here for you and all you have to do is
buy the $20,000 cars that I make.

Repayments to be made on the best terms you'll get from us anyway

What could be better.

Trrrrussst in meeeee

That doesn't counter my point at all, which is, if you GAVE me the $20,000 to spend in the first place then who am I to complain? The guy I replied to wasn't talking about repayments.