NationStates Jolt Archive

I have heard many people making the justification for theocratic government, including the President, assert that the United States was founded on Christian principles. However, I have looked online about that and have repeatedly, on many quote sites (including wikiquote) and in books I have read, the following quote:

This nation of ours was not founded on Christian principles.

I would like to know what people think about this, especially those who are in the camp that claim "This nation was founded on Christian Principles."

The treaty ending the barabary wars makes it clear that the United States was not formed or structured special for Christians, but secular to the effect that religion should neither play a part in government nor government interfere in matters of religion.

religion should neither play a part in government nor government interfere in matters of religion.
But they both do.

Some of the Founding Fathers were rather devout men, but that doesn’t mean they wanted to create a theocracy. The mistake that many in this argument make is to debate the religion of the Founders. What they fail to realize is that deeply religious people can be just as supportive of liberty and representative government as any atheist.

Some of the Founding Fathers were rather devout men, but that doesn’t mean they wanted to create a theocracy. The mistake that many in this argument make is to debate the religion of the Founders. What they fail to realize is that deeply religious people can be just as supportive of liberty and representative government as any atheist.

*Applauds*

I wholeheartedly agree. I myself am a "Believer" (no relationship to the Christian Right, thank God), but really, not all of the founding fathers were very devout:

Benjamin Franklin - supposed Congregationalist, died of STD
Thomas Paine - Deist
Abigail Adams - Universalist
FIRST SIX PRESIDENTS
George Washington - Deist
John Adams - Fundamentalist Congregationalist Christian
Thomas Jefferson - Unitarian
James Madison - Deist
James Monroe - Deist
John Quincy Adams - Unitarian-Deist

Even if it was, what difference does it make to us now? That was a long time ago and you'd think we'd have evolved since then. The founding fathers believed in a lot of shit that, by todays standards, is either racist or absurd... they weren't gods. It should be a moot point.

It was and it wasn't. While the founders where products of the Enlightenment and as you stated, largely deists, the cultures from which they came were so permeated with Christian belief that it would be insane to think our country was not founded on many Christian principles. However, that makes no argument for having a theocratic state, or allowing religion to be practiced in the classroom or using public money. I even think that having government paid Chaplains in the military isn't very constitutional, but a Chaplain is a great person to talk to when you are having problems, so I won't complain about it! I talked to my Chaplain ALOT when I was in the Marines, even after I converted to Islam.

THEY WERE TOO GODS!!![/sarcasm]

But, seriously, who said they were? They founded the United States and I give them proper respect historically (I am taking College-level history courses in High School). Truly: What is the meaning of "Christian principles"? What do you mean by that?

It was clearly founded on biblical principles. The ten commandments are the basis of all US law. Why do you think that in the constitution we're told that free speech is permited as long as you don't take the lord's name in vain, and that freedom of religion is guaranteed as long as you worship the one true god.

Wait, what do you mean that's not in the constitution? That "ten commandments" judge from Alabama seems to think it is.

More like the US was founded on Demonic principles of violence and Drunkenness.

More like the US was founded on Demonic principles of violence and Drunkenness.
Fine principles that I support whole heartedly.

Wait, what do you mean that's not in the constitution? That "ten commandments" judge from Alabama seems to think it is.

Tee hee. ;)

Tee hee. ;)
How are you feeling dude? Have you gotten surgery on your throat yet? I hope everything's allright.

How are you feeling dude? Have you gotten surgery on your throat yet? I hope everything's allright.

Oh, yeah ... everything went swimmingly. I threw in an update somewhere, but I've since lost it. It's either in my original thread about it or in Zooke's nice thread.

I feel pretty ok, though my sleep schedule is all kinds of out of whack.

I know that you may be sarcastic, but allow me to say something: there are over 600 Commandments, and not just one. If you want to believe that the US is based on the TEN, then you should base the US in others: From now on, no American may eat pork. Or shellfish.

Oh, yeah ... everything went swimmingly. I threw in an update somewhere, but I've since lost it. It's either in my original thread about it or in Zooke's nice thread.

I feel pretty ok, though my sleep schedule is all kinds of out of whack.
It's good to know that it went well and you're feeling ok.

Well people who say that we are founded on "christian" principles assume that just because we talk about God were writing Him into law. For example in the declaration of independence it says that "God created all men equal" now I personally would like to know what that has to do with gay marriage for example? Now arguably this was founded by protestant Christians who were escaping persecution from the Catholic Church, but their basis was religious freedom, not religion itself. So no our nation is not really founded on "Christian Principles" it is founded on freedom of religion.

I know that you may be sarcastic, but allow me to say something: there are over 600 Commandments, and not just one. If you want to believe that the US is based on the TEN, then you should base the US in others: From now on, no American may eat pork. Or shellfish.
Can we still mix meat and dairy?

Well people who say that we are founded on "christian" principles assume that just because we talk about God were writing Him into law. For example in the declaration of independence it says that "God created all men equal" now I personally would like to know what that has to do with gay marriage for example?

Well .... two things ...

The Declaration of Independence is not law. Nothing binding about it.

Also, it says that all men are created equal, not that God created them, and mentions a deity only in the form of "endowed by their creator" ... not *the* creator, just "their" creator.

Even the Declaration is very secular. :)

I was aware the Declaration of Independence is not law, but most "Christians" (or those who call themselves that) claim that the Declaration proves our nation was somehow founded on Christian principles, I agree with you it is not true. Our nation was founded on religious freedom for everyone, not Christian values.

However I don't totally see a huge difference between "their" creator and "the" creator, both of them are creators, and not "evolutionary" coincidences or anything like that. And all men are "Created" equally implies a creator, I know I seem like I'm reaching, and I'm not saying they were even Christian, they were just religious. Secular, I doubt. Most of the actual constitution however, is secular, you're right about that.

Some of the Founding Fathers were rather devout men, but that doesn’t mean they wanted to create a theocracy. The mistake that many in this argument make is to debate the religion of the Founders. What they fail to realize is that deeply religious people can be just as supportive of liberty and representative government as any atheist.

Amen!

I'm one of them...

The CR's (Christian Reconstructionists) are what is driving this movement.

Their goals are anything but "Christian" as our own founding fathers would admit...

If the US was found on any single "Christian" principle; it was "forbearance"...

To quote the Virginia Bill of Rights (Ratified in May of 1776


That religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and, therefore, all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that [b]it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other. No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but all men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain their opinions in matters of religion, and the same shall in nowise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.

It was clearly founded on biblical principles. The ten commandments are the basis of all US law. Why do you think that in the constitution we're told that free speech is permited as long as you don't take the lord's name in vain, and that freedom of religion is guaranteed as long as you worship the one true god.

Wait, what do you mean that's not in the constitution? That "ten commandments" judge from Alabama seems to think it is.

Heh. I'm still waiting for the first report of an arrest for coveting.

Ooh, or we could get most of the country for dishonouring their fathers and mothers. I wonder if that's a capital offense...

George Washington - Deist

Diest, though attended an Episcopalian Church with his wife.


John Adams - Fundamentalist Congregationalist Christian

Wrong: Unitarian


Thomas Jefferson - Unitarian

Raised Episcopalian, converted as Diestic Unitarian


James Madison - Deist

Wrong: Episcopalian, baptized....


James Monroe - Deist

Wrong: Episcopalian, baptized (in fact, opposed Religious Freedom as expressed in the Virginia Constitution; but changed this view after dicussions with the Anglican and 1st Govenor of Virginia (Patrick Henry); and later supported the amendment to the US constitution...


John Quincy Adams - Unitarian-Deist

Correct on that one...

To continue...
7. Andrew Jackson - Presbyterian
8. Martin Van Buren - Dutch Reformed
9. William Henry Harrison - Episcopalian
10. John Tyler - Unitarian Deist
11. James K. Polk - Raised Presbyterian, converted to Methodist
12. Zachary Tayler - Episcopalian
13. Millard Filmore - Unitarian
14. Franklin Pierce - Episcopalian
15. James Buchanan - Presbyterian
16. Abraham Lincoln - Raised Baptist, later leaned to Deism.

I have heard many people making the justification for theocratic government, including the President, assert that the United States was founded on Christian principles. However, I have looked online about that and have repeatedly, on many quote sites (including wikiquote) and in books I have read, the following quote:



I would like to know what people think about this, especially those who are in the camp that claim "This nation was founded on Christian Principles."

Who cares? Nations like the UK and the rest of Europe had state enforced religions at one point in their history, but that has no relevance anymore -- people are free to follow whichever faith they choose and their governments are (largely) secular. If America wants people to call it the 'land of the free' as Americans enjoy calling it, they have to continue doing the same. Theocracy = bad.

Some of the Founding Fathers were rather devout men, but that doesn’t mean they wanted to create a theocracy. The mistake that many in this argument make is to debate the religion of the Founders. What they fail to realize is that deeply religious people can be just as supportive of liberty and representative government as any atheist.

**more applause**

Even if it was, what difference does it make to us now? That was a long time ago and you'd think we'd have evolved since then. The founding fathers believed in a lot of shit that, by todays standards, is either racist or absurd... they weren't gods. It should be a moot point.

Great point.

To continue...
7. Andrew Jackson - Presbyterian
8. Martin Van Buren - Dutch Reformed
9. William Henry Harrison - Episcopalian
10. John Tyler - Unitarian Deist
11. James K. Polk - Raised Presbyterian, converted to Methodist
12. Zachary Tayler - Episcopalian
13. Millard Filmore - Unitarian
14. Franklin Pierce - Episcopalian
15. James Buchanan - Presbyterian
16. Abraham Lincoln - Raised Baptist, later leaned to Deism.

Regardless if they were religious or not, devout or not, they did not want to see this nation become a religious theocratic nanny state. This country was founded on the ideals of secularism, something very new at the time. Ay-way does make a good point about a lot of their views being outmoded and even racist.

Christian constructionalists will continue on their path of deception in order to make the government more theocratic... and I hope they fail miserably. I hope anyone who tries to bring in religion to government fails miserably.

Amen!

I'm one of them...

The CR's (Christian Reconstructionists) are what is driving this movement.

Their goals are anything but "Christian" as our own founding fathers would admit...

If the US was found on any single "Christian" principle; it was "forbearance"...

To quote the Virginia Bill of Rights (Ratified in May of 1776 [BEFORE even the Declaration of Independence, let alone the Us Constitution...]

As always, it is a pleasure to read your comments on this subject. :)

I agree with Ay-way. Even if this country was founded on such 'principles' [if you could call them that] we've come a long way since then and should be able to see that theocracies don't accomplish shit. I can't help but think of the Dark Ages whenever the term is mentioned.

I agree with Ay-way. Even if this country was founded on such 'principles' [if you could call them that] we've come a long way since then and should be able to see that theocracies don't accomplish shit. I can't help but think of the Dark Ages whenever the term is mentioned.

Well bring up a modern day example, Iran. They execute people there for being gay and the country is under state of constant fear (being a police state and all).

The treaty ending the barabary wars makes it clear that the United States was not formed or structured special for Christians, *snip*

This is correct. You are referring to the, The Treaty of Tripoli, November 4, 1796 (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/bar1796t.htm), which states (emphasis added):

ARTICLE 11.
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.


... but secular to the effect that religion should neither play a part in government nor government interfere in matters of religion.

I'm not sure you can say that this part is in the treaty. It is certainly the warp and woof of the First Amendment Establishment and Free Exercise Clauses -- i.e., the wall of separation of Church and State. :)

Well bring up a modern day example, Iran. They execute people there for being gay and the country is under state of constant fear (being a police state and all).The police state thing always depends. People tend to be able to live rather comfortable lives in states that repress as much as Iran does. That's why you'll still get a lot of East Germans telling you that the GDR wasn't that bad. If you knew what rules to live by, they didn't bother you, and some people seriously don't mind that much.

The police state thing always depends. People tend to be able to live rather comfortable lives in states that repress as much as Iran does. That's why you'll still get a lot of East Germans telling you that the GDR wasn't that bad. If you knew what rules to live by, they didn't bother you, and some people seriously don't mind that much.

Is that why so many East Germans were trying to escape to the west?

In Iran they will detain you on mere accusation, and furthermore I don't call living brutally repressed comfortable. Maybe it is for these people who don't know what freedom is like but that's hardly living. Are you defending Iran's actions in regard to those two gay teenagers they executed?

Is that why so many East Germans were trying to escape to the west?

In Iran they will detain you on mere accusation, and furthermore I don't call living brutally repressed comfortable. Maybe it is for these people who don't know what freedom is like but that's hardly living. Are you defending Iran's actions in regard to those two gay teenagers they executed?Mesa, I ask you, in all earnest, do you believe you have more experience in talking to East Germans than I have?
My German Grandparents fled through Berlin with my mom when she was still a baby.
I have a hard time believing it, but my statement is true.

And no, I'm not defending Iran. I'm against the death penalty and homophobia. That people can live comfortably in repressive regimes is a fact. Not everyone can, but there's a lot that are capable of it.

Is that why so many East Germans were trying to escape to the west?

In Iran they will detain you on mere accusation, and furthermore I don't call living brutally repressed comfortable. Maybe it is for these people who don't know what freedom is like but that's hardly living. Are you defending Iran's actions in regard to those two gay teenagers they executed?

If you don't know what the freedom to compare your head of state with various bodyparts also involving the word 'head', how can you miss it?

Mesa, I ask you, in all earnest, do you believe you have more experience in talking to East Germans than I have?
My German Grandparents fled through Berlin with my mom when she was still a baby.
I have a hard time believing it, but my statement is true.

Why are you defending dictatorships?

Why are you defending dictatorships?What makes you think I'm defending them?

I have heard many people making the justification for theocratic government, including the President, assert that the United States was founded on Christian principles. However, I have looked online about that and have repeatedly, on many quote sites (including wikiquote) and in books I have read, the following quote:



I would like to know what people think about this, especially those who are in the camp that claim "This nation was founded on Christian Principles."

America wasn't founded on necessarily Christian (or "Kuhristeeyun") principles, it was founded on Masonic and Deistic Principles. Unfortunately, the Masons aren't in charge anymore, and instead we've got the troglodyte Theists and the Luddite Communists struggling for control.

Alright, James Monroe was incorrect. However, John Adams WAS A CHRISTIAN. A quote to prove it:

Twenty times in the course of my late reading have I been on the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!!!" But in this exclamation I would have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean Hell.

John Adams was very fundamentalist. The original text of the Declaration said:
the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature entitle them
Adams changed that to say:
the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them

Another example from the declaration of Independence:
Original text: that they are born of Nature with certain inalienable Rights
Adams edit: that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights

John Adams, despite what everyone says, WAS a Christian. He advocated the destruction of organized Christianity to go back to the roots of the faith, NOT for the unbelief in Messiah.

The basis of the United Sates government is the election of representatives i.e. “No taxation without representation”. I don’t see this as being a strictly christian principle.

The USA was founded on Sodomy and Rape. White slave masters would rape frogs.

I have heard many people making the justification for theocratic government, including the President, assert that the United States was founded on Christian principles. However, I have looked online about that and have repeatedly, on many quote sites (including wikiquote) and in books I have read, the following quote:



I would like to know what people think about this, especially those who are in the camp that claim "This nation was founded on Christian Principles."

Basically John Adams statement had to be said in order to encompass the idea of religious freedom in the young US.

However...our money says "In God We Trust" and our Pledge includes the words "One Nation Under God".

The idea is that we were founded on christian principles. Then we realized how stupid an idea that was since it was why we left England (for the most part) and made amendments to change those ideas.

Unfortunately, we have Bush...who believe was appointed by god. If that isn't a cry for making religion illegal I don't know what is.

Even if it was, what difference does it make to us now? That was a long time ago and you'd think we'd have evolved since then. The founding fathers believed in a lot of shit that, by todays standards, is either racist or absurd... they weren't gods. It should be a moot point.

Read the DOI and especially the Constitution. For old documents they did a pretty damn good job.

The USA was founded on Sodomy and Rape. White slave masters would rape frogs.
Frog was asking for it.

It was clearly founded on biblical principles. The ten commandments are the basis of all US law. Why do you think that in the constitution we're told that free speech is permited as long as you don't take the lord's name in vain, and that freedom of religion is guaranteed as long as you worship the one true god.

Wait, what do you mean that's not in the constitution? That "ten commandments" judge from Alabama seems to think it is.

Damn Commies, you had me going for a moment. ;)

More like the US was founded on Demonic principles of violence and Drunkenness.

Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.
-- Benjamin Franklin

However...our money says "In God We Trust" and our Pledge includes the words "One Nation Under God".

Both added in the 1950's.

It's good to know that it went well and you're feeling ok.

I missed the whole thing so count me as a "me too" on that! :)

Both added in the 1950's.


I didn't know that. Thanks for adding to my knowledge base. (seriously, I'm not being sarcastic here)

Uhhh... could you perhaps provide a link or otherwise identify the specific source where you found that quote, "this nation was not founded on Christian principles"???

Read the DOI and especially the Constitution. For old documents they did a pretty damn good job.

I'm not saying the founding fathers were illiterate, or that they were stupid. I'm saying their value system was set in the 1700's, and as such perhaps we should question being 100% accepting of that value system when applying it to modern society. They did a lot of things that were admirable, but that doesn't mean they can't be wrong, or that all their beliefs apply to 21st century Americans.

However...our money says "In God We Trust" and our Pledge includes the words "One Nation Under God".

Most of that was put in during the 1950s to "counter communism"... specifically that on the currency.. I believe it was the Eisenhower adminstration that added it in.

Uhhh... could you perhaps provide a link or otherwise identify the specific source where you found that quote, "this nation was not founded on Christian principles"???

The Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11, IIRC.

Are their any references to jesus or god in the constitution?

How about parts of the constitution modeled after or based on christian rules?

Would the ten commandments be constitutional if they were enacted as laws?


The answers to those questions tell us quite definitively whether or not our country is based on the worship of jehova and jesus christ.

The Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11, IIRC.

Here's a link to the text of the 11th article. I tried to find a site that didn't have a blatant political agenda so you could be a little more trusting of the text:

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Treaty-of-Tripoli

John Adams was very fundamentalist. The original text of the Declaration said:
the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature entitle them
Adams changed that to say:
the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them

Another example from the declaration of Independence:
Original text: that they are born of Nature with certain inalienable Rights
Adams edit: that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights

John Adams, despite what everyone says, WAS a Christian. He advocated the destruction of organized Christianity to go back to the roots of the faith, NOT for the unbelief in Messiah.
How do those quotes show his Christianity? There is no mention of Yeshua. All I see is a textbook example of Deism. (Deism uses the phrase "Nature's God". Christianity does not.)

I have heard many people making the justification for theocratic government, including the President, assert that the United States was founded on Christian principles. However, I have looked online about that and have repeatedly, on many quote sites (including wikiquote) and in books I have read, the following quote:



I would like to know what people think about this, especially those who are in the camp that claim "This nation was founded on Christian Principles."

No, the US wasn't founded on Christian principles. It was not designed to be a Christian nation, or a theocracy of any religion.

I've shared this before but I think I'll do it again(this was written like a year ago by someone on this forum who's name I don't remember. It was wise, so I copy-pasted.) -

Our founding fathers were devout Christians who based this nation on the Bible? Oh my. Well, lets get some opinions from the Founding Fathers themselves, eh? Arranging in alphabetical order. Why? Because I like it.

Lets start with John Adams, one of my favorites.
John Adams (1735-1826)
Second President of the United States (1797-1801)

As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?
-- John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, December 27, 1816

I shall have liberty to think for myself without molesting others or being molested myself.
-- John Adams, letter to his brother-in-law, Richard Cranch, August 29, 1756, explaining how his independent opinions would create much difficulty in the ministry, in Edwin S. Gaustad, Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the New Nation (1987) p. 88, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church"

Let the human mind loose. It must be loose. It will be loose. Superstition and dogmatism cannot confine it.
-- John Adams, letter to his son, John Quincy Adams, November 13, 1816, from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief

Can a free government possibly exist with the Roman Catholic religion?
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, May 19, 1821, from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief

I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, from George Seldes, The Great Quotations, also from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief

God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world.
-- John Adams, "this awful blashpemy" that he refers to is the myth of the Incarnation of Christ, from Ira D. Cardiff, What Great Men Think of Religion, quoted from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief

The Treaty of Tripoli
Signed by John Adams

"As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] ... it is declared ... that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever product an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries....
"The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation."
-- Treaty of Tripoli (1797), carried unanimously by the Senate and signed into law by John Adams (the original language is by Joel Barlow, U.S. Consul)


Alright, so Jonny is a bit hard-core. I'm sure friendly Mr. Franklin will be the very opitime of a good Christian!

Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
American public official, writer, scientist, and printer who played a major part in the American Revolution

The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason: The Morning Daylight appears plainer when you put out your Candle.
-- Benjamin Franklin, the incompatibility of faith and reason, Poor Richard's Almanack (1758)

I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies.
-- Benjamin Franklin, quoted from Victor J. Stenger, Has Science Found God? (2001)

Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.
-- Benjamin Franklin (attributed: source unknown)

Um...alright. Thomas Jefferson will prove the US is a Christian nation!

Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)
The third President of the United States (1801-1809)

The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82 (capitalization of the word god is retained per original; see Positive Atheism's Historical Section)

Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82

[N]o man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom (1779), quoted from Merrill D. Peterson, ed., Thomas Jefferson: Writings (1984), p. 347

I am for freedom of religion, & against all maneuvres to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Elbridge Gerry, 1799 (see Positive Atheism's Historical section)

I never will, by any word or act, bow to the shrine of intolerance, or admit a right of inquiry into the religious opinions of others.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Edward Dowse, April 19, 1803

Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.
We have solved ... the great and interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of his own inquiries.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to the Virginia Baptists (1808). This is his second use of the term "wall of separation," here quoting his own use in the Danbury Baptist letter. This wording was several times upheld by the Supreme Court as an accurate description of the Establishment Clause: Reynolds (98 U.S. at 164, 1879); Everson (330 U.S. at 59, 1947); McCollum (333 U.S. at 232, 1948)

Religion is a subject on which I have ever been most scrupulously reserved. I have considered it as a matter between every man and his Maker in which no other, and far less the public, had a right to intermeddle.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to Richard Rush, 1813

Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the common law.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814, responding to the claim that Chritianity was part of the Common Law of England, as the United States Constitution defaults to the Common Law regarding matters that it does not address. This argument is still used today by "Christian Nation" revisionists who do not admit to having read Thomas Jefferson's thorough research of this matter.

The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to Jeremiah Moor, 1800

I am for freedom of religion, and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendency of one sect over another.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to Elbridge Gerry, 1799. ME 10:78

To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. Papers, 1:545

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to Alexander von Humboldt, December 6, 1813 (see Positive Atheism's Historical section)

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. It is easier to acquire wealth and power by this combination than by deserving them, and to effect this, they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purposes.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814

Damn it Tommy, shut up! You're not helping me prove to these nice people that Christianity was built into our nation by the Founding Fathers! In fact, you're being down-right hostile towards religion in general, and Christianity in particular!

I can only hope that James Madison, Father of our Constitution, can save us!
After all, it is that document that is the supreme law!

The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries.
-- James Madison, letter objecting to the use of government land for churches, 1803, quoted from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief

Thats not a good start, James....

I have ever regarded the freedom of religious opinions and worship as equally belonging to every sect.
-- James Madison, letter to Mordecai Noah, May 15, 1818, from Albert J. Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom

The general government is proscribed from the interfering, in any manner whatsoever, in matters respecting religion; and it may be thought to do this, in ascertaining who, and who are not, ministers of the gospel.
-- James Madison, 1790, Papers, 13:16

What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; in many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient allies.
-- James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, addressed to the Virginia General Assemby, June 20, 1785

Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects.
-- James Madison, letter to Bradford, January 1774, from Albert J. Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom

Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprize, every expanded prospect.
-- James Madison, letter to William Bradford, Jr., April 1, 1774, quoted from Edwin S. Gaustad, Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the New Nation (1987) p. 37, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church"

Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty, may have found an established Clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just Government instituted to secure & perpetuate it needs them not.
-- James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, addressed to the Virginia General Assemby, June 20, 1785

Among the features peculiar to the political system of the United States, is the perfect equality of rights which it secures to every religious sect ... Equal laws, protecting equal rights, are found, as they ought to be presumed, the best guarantee of loyalty and love of country; as well as best calculated to cherish that mutual respect and good will among citizens of every religious denomination which are necessary to social harmony, and most favorable to the advancement of truth.
-- James Madison, letter to Dr. De La Motta, August 1820 (Madison, 1865, III, pages 178-179), quoted from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief

Because the bill vests in the said incorporated church an authority to provide for the support of the poor and the education of poor children of the same, an authority which, being altogether superfluous if the provision is to be the result of pious charity, would be a precedent for giving to religious societies as such a legal agency in carrying into effect a public and civil duty.
-- James Madison, veto message, February 21, 1811. Madison vetoed a bill to fund "pious charity" organized by the Episcopal Church in Alexandria, Virginia, and the District of Columbia, saying that a project comparable to the modern "Charitible Choice" scheme of the George W. Bush administration gives religious societies legal agency in performing a public and civil duty

And smacking down a faith-based initiative! How dare you!


Because the bill in reserving a certain parcel of land in the United States for the use of said Baptist Church comprises a principle and a precedent for the appropriation of funds of the United States for the use and support of religious societies, contrary to the article of the Constitution which declares that "Congress shall make no law respecting a religious establishment."
-- James Madison, veto message, February 28, 1811. Madison vetoed a bill granting public lands to a Baptist Church in Mississippi Territory. Quoted from Albert J. Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom. Also in Gaillard Hunt, The Writings of James Madison, Vol. 8, (1908), p. 133.

Freedom arises from the multiplicity of sects, which pervades America and which is the best and only security for religious liberty in any society. For where there is such a variety of sects, there can ot be a majority of any one sect to oppress and persecute the rest.
-- James Madison, spoken at the Virginia convention on ratification of the Constitution, June, 1778, quoted from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief


AAAAAHHHH!!! Washington, you are my only hope!

George Washington (1732-1799)
The first President of the United States (1789-1797)

Every man, conducting himself as a good citizen, and being accountable to God alone for his religious opinions, ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience.
-- George Washington, letter to the United Baptist Chamber of Virginia, May 1789, in Anson Phelps Stokes, Church and State in the United States, Vol 1. p. 495, quoted from Albert J. Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom

Among many other weighty objections to the Measure, it has been suggested, that it has a tendency to introduce religious disputes into the Army, which above all things should be avoided, and in many instances would compel men to a mode of Worship which they do not profess.
-- George Washington, to John Hancock, then president of Congress, expressing opposition to a congressional plan to appoint brigade chaplains in the Continental Army (1777), quoted from a letter to Cliff Walker from Doug Harper (2002) ††

Well. Screw me. I guess the Founding Fathers weren't religious nuts. How about that.

It never fails to answer this question quite handily. :)

I agree with Ay-way. Even if this country was founded on such 'principles' [if you could call them that] we've come a long way since then and should be able to see that theocracies don't accomplish shit. I can't help but think of the Dark Ages whenever the term is mentioned.
Hmm. I think of Iran for some reason. Oh well, they accomplish jack as well.

I would say it was founded on Judeo-Roman principles. There is quite a bit of evidence on this.

The Bottom line is that even if we were founded on christian pricipals then, there are more than jut christians living in the U.S. today

It's people who are so ignorant of to even see that that makes people want to :headbang:

I would say it was founded on Judeo-Roman principles. There is quite a bit of evidence on this.


Really? Where? Please show me said evidence.

I didn't know that. Thanks for adding to my knowledge base. (seriously, I'm not being sarcastic here)
No problem. Thanks for the anti-sarcastic note. I'm beginning to get more sarcastic on here.

Really? Where? Please show me said evidence.

Yeah. I want to see it too. I'm curious (US democracy has its roots in Rome, and maybe Greece - but moreso the Roman republic).

Really? Where? Please show me said evidence.

Well, our government is like Rome and our rights and beliefs are Jewishy. I'll try to find a website though...(later)

Well, our government is like Rome and our rights and beliefs are Jewishy. I'll try to find a website though...(later)

Our beliefs are jewishy (SIC)? I'd like to see evidence of that

Our beliefs are jewishy (SIC)? I'd like to see evidence of that

Personally, I'd just like to know exactly what Jewishy means.

Personally, I'd just like to know exactly what Jewishy means.


especially "jewishy" rights...


last time i checked our rights stem from english-y ones...

come to think of it, we have a supremely un-roman government

after all, we operate under a variant of english common law, not, as many countries do today, roman common law

I have heard many people making the justification for theocratic government, including the President, assert that the United States was founded on Christian principles. However, I have looked online about that and have repeatedly, on many quote sites (including wikiquote) and in books I have read, the following quote:

I would like to know what people think about this, especially those who are in the camp that claim "This nation was founded on Christian Principles."

It was founded on classical liberalism. The reason the Revolutionary war happened was because Americans became to independent thinking for English law after the Period of Salutory Neglect.

The "Cause" of the war was Independence.

The reason for the Constitution was chaotic confederate government. The reason for the Bill of Rights was the deep distrust the patriots had of government and their determination to ensure they had their rights protected.

The Constitution itself is modeled after REPUBLICAN principle. (Plato's Republic, Roman Republic, Greek and American absolute democracy) No principles were christian based.

The Constitution doesn't even define our legal system standards and moral basis for criminal behavior. Just the supreme court and its structure in our government.

NONE of the reasons for war was religious/christian based. In fact, the reason for the seperation of church and state was because of the abuses that did happen when the church was to involved in government in colonial life.

The problem with religious people that say "christian principles" is that they DON'T KNOW ANY AMERICAN HISTORY. They don't even bother to READ the documents that they claim are christian based. They are secular based and based on OTHER ideas. The Declaration of Independence is right out of John Locke's teachings with Jefferson's own legal opinions.

By the way folks, deists are not christians. They believe in a natural god very similar to the force in Star Wars. That didn't mean they believed in Jesus being the savior which makes someone a christian.

Even if it was, what difference does it make to us now? That was a long time ago and you'd think we'd have evolved since then. The founding fathers believed in a lot of shit that, by todays standards, is either racist or absurd... they weren't gods. It should be a moot point.

It makes a HUGE difference. Most Americans have to relearn what the founders' knew when it comes to government. Why? Most American's aren't taught properly of republican principles. What they said in various documents such as the Federalist papers are like dark age citizens looking back to Roman blueprints to re-learn architecture. Do you understand? The educational gap of todays' American is that large from what the founder's knew when it comes to HOW a republic works. They were giants that you no longer see these days. We haven't evolved since then. We have only worked out issues such as slavery since it is no longer engrained in our economy, and racism. We haven't even resolved our issues with why our Native American citizens live in reservations. And do you really think our current politicans and citizens could make an original design of something so massive as the Constitution? **** no.

Oh your right about them not being gods. Jefferson was more acurate. They were demi-gods.

I'm not saying the founding fathers were illiterate, or that they were stupid. I'm saying their value system was set in the 1700's, and as such perhaps we should question being 100% accepting of that value system when applying it to modern society. They did a lot of things that were admirable, but that doesn't mean they can't be wrong, or that all their beliefs apply to 21st century Americans.

You have a very ignorant perception of them. I recommend you read their writings, not judge their decisions that were modified to accomidate representatives that came from slave based economies.

By the way, racism wasn't as big of an issue as it was then like it was during the civil war and after. Back then, there weren't many slaves. It wasn't till AFTER the cotton gin that slavery took off. Please, learn some history, your embarrassing yourself.

Well, our government is like Rome and our rights and beliefs are Jewishy. I'll try to find a website though...(later)

1. The reason other posters are proding you for that information is because your flat out wrong.

2. Rome had ONE thing we based off it. A republic body called the senate making law.

3. Jewishy? Seriously.... jewishy? Anyway, the entire history of judah prefered government is theocracy. We copied or modeled NOTHING of our government around Judeah government. It was the priests that ruled Israel. Not the people.

Wow... it looks like this thread was effectively dogpiled before any of the usual suspects could get in here to say differently.

Part of the Christian culture of the times is bound into the the documents in question, but that is far more of us all being products of our culture than anything dilberate.

However, history has shown that even if our founding fathers did not set out to make a Christian state, the US has wobbled back and forth between that idea everytime a great revival happens. With any luck we'll start to wobble back from being a overly religious nation soon.

Alright, James Monroe was incorrect. However, John Adams WAS A CHRISTIAN. A quote to prove it:

Twenty times in the course of my late reading have I been on the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!!!" But in this exclamation I would have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean Hell.

John Adams was very fundamentalist. The original text of the Declaration said:
the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature entitle them
Adams changed that to say:
the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them

Another example from the declaration of Independence:
Original text: that they are born of Nature with certain inalienable Rights
Adams edit: that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights

John Adams, despite what everyone says, WAS a Christian. He advocated the destruction of organized Christianity to go back to the roots of the faith, NOT for the unbelief in Messiah.


Adams was a Unitarian-Deist... like many of that time (Franklin, Jefferson and Washington being three other notables)... Such were not "Christian" in the orthodox sense; but were theists and believed in a "Creator" being.

Are their any references to jesus or god in the constitution?

How about parts of the constitution modeled after or based on christian rules?

Would the ten commandments be constitutional if they were enacted as laws?


The answers to those questions tell us quite definitively whether or not our country is based on the worship of jehova and jesus christ.

Good point.... Let's analyse this....

Commandment 1

"You shall have no other gods before Me."

Violation of Amendment I, clause 1, to the United States Constitution...

Commandment 2

" 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.' "

Violation of Amendment I, Clause 1, to the United States Constitution...

Commandment 3

" 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.' "

Violation of Amendment I, Clause 2, to the United States Constitution...

Commandment 4

"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy."

Violation of Amendment I, Clause 1, to the United States Constitution...

Commandment 5

"Honor your father and your mother."

Permissible depending on legal interpretation of "honor".

Commandment 6

"You shall not murder."

Absolutely permissible and in accordance with the DOI and many other principles of American foundation... You're depriving one of an inherant right

Commandment 7

"You shall not commit adultery."

Perfectly permissible as long as remaining in "civil law" regardant contract dispute in marriage... Most people would not find fault in charging a spouse for divorce in such a case...

Commandment 8

"You shall not steal."

Perfectly permissible by right to property, as understood in law, and protect the property of another...

Commandment 9

"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."

Perfectly permissible... Lying under oath, and brining false charges; are already crimes which I'm sure most people would agree impinge upon the rights of another...

Commandment 10

"You shall not covet your neighbour's house; you shall not covet your neighbour's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbour's."

While listed as seperate, this is definitely in accordance with Commandment 8... As being an internal working of it. However, but would definitely fit into the principle of "conspiracy" as noted in many laws against theft and murder...

It all depends on what you mean by "Christian principles." After all, according to many Eurpean Christians in the 1770s, the only true form of Christian government was monarchy and so, by their standards, America was built on the antithesis of Christian values. It all goes to show that, when it comes to the inter-relationship of politics and religion, it's all very much in the eye of the beholder.

Considering the number of Founding Fathers that were Freemason's and knowing the principles of Freemasonry I would say the nation was founded on Masonic principles.



I have heard many people making the justification for theocratic government, including the President, assert that the United States was founded on Christian principles. However, I have looked online about that and have repeatedly, on many quote sites (including wikiquote) and in books I have read, the following quote:



I would like to know what people think about this, especially those who are in the camp that claim "This nation was founded on Christian Principles."

"Jewishy"? "Jewishy"? How are our beliefs "Jewishy"?

And Judaea (more correctly "Israel") was not always a theocracy. That was only during one period of time: between the Maccabees and the Roman takeover. Before the monarchy, it was run as a Meritocracy, controlled by the Elders of the 12 Tribes. After that, they went on to the Monarchy, first Saul and then the Davidic Dynasty. Please explain to me how either of these was a theocracy.

And the fact that we have a Senate and are based on the Roman principle of the Republic how are we based on Rome? More of a combination of Athens and Rome, if you think about it.

Oh, and Tekania? Where are the other 600? ;)

Oh, and Tekania? Where are the other 600? ;)

My point was to illustrate whether, in accordance with the poster's pointed message; whether or not the "10 Commandments" would stand constitutionally..

The rulling: As a whole (all 10 of them); no.... 5 may survive, in one form or another (the latter 5, which relate to social points of order); but the prior will not.