NationStates Jolt Archive

Long gone are chastity belts and the days where female infants were disposed of because they were considered "useless" or a "burden". We are no longer expected to birth twenty children to take care of the farm or labor in layers of restrictive clothing.

We can now earn as much if not more than our male counterparts and we can vote. Though it is still an issue of much debate, we can basically make our own choices regarding our bodies including abortion. We don't have to wear bras, though I highly recommend it for many women.

So what are we fighting with our men for?

While I was raised to believe that a man is not a man unless he is taking care of his family, I find that idea to be rather outdated. In my ideal world, at least one parent should be a home maker. I feel that our children would have a better advantage with at least one parent taking more time to raise and guide them in the home. Unfortunately, for many people that is economically unfeasible.

I would like to see a woman become president of the United States because it has never been done here and I am curious to see what differences, if any, there would be in how our country is run.

Also, I would like to see men be a little more understanding and appreciative of the birthing process. Comparing labor and giving birth to a kick in the balls is a bit of an understatement. However, I do not feel superior for being able to give birth. We most certainly do not impregnate ourselves. Kudos to men for contributing to that process.

I guess what I'm getting at in this lengthy (I do apologize) thread, is what are feminists still riled up over?

Good post. My views are the same.

I guess what I'm getting at in this lengthy (I do apologize) thread, is what are feminists still riled up over?

Feminists have not been about women's rights for years. It is about lesibian rights, and men are the enemy.

Liverbreath']Feminists have not been about women's rights for years. It is about lesibian rights, and men are the enemy.
You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Modern feminism is about equality for all.

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Modern feminism is about equality for all.

I agree, I'm all for equality... Now when are one of you suger mamas going to set me up in a nice penthouse?

Long gone are chastity belts and the days where female infants were disposed of because they were considered "useless" or a "burden". We are no longer expected to birth twenty children to take care of the farm or labor in layers of restrictive clothing.

We can now earn as much if not more than our male counterparts and we can vote. Though it is still an issue of much debate, we can basically make our own choices regarding our bodies including abortion. We don't have to wear bras, though I highly recommend it for many women.

So what are we fighting with our men for?

While I was raised to believe that a man is not a man unless he is taking care of his family, I find that idea to be rather outdated. In my ideal world, at least one parent should be a home maker. I feel that our children would have a better advantage with at least one parent taking more time to raise and guide them in the home. Unfortunately, for many people that is economically unfeasible.

I would like to see a woman become president of the United States because it has never been done here and I am curious to see what differences, if any, there would be in how our country is run.

Also, I would like to see men be a little more understanding and appreciative of the birthing process. Comparing labor and giving birth to a kick in the balls is a bit of an understatement. However, I do not feel superior for being able to give birth. We most certainly do not impregnate ourselves. Kudos to men for contributing to that process.

I guess what I'm getting at in this lengthy (I do apologize) thread, is what are feminists still riled up over?

Depends how hard the kick in the balls is.

Now, if it's a rock bigger then both your fists put together, along with extreme jaggedness, hurled at 50+ MPH at your crotch, I think that's going to hurt.

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Modern feminism is about equality for all.

That may be in Ireland, but it sure is not in the US. The lesbian take over of N.O.W. and several of their splinter groups are well publicized. My partner (LEO) was heavily involved in those politics, but finally got fed up with it herself. The concept of feminism is of course for equality, but the practicing individuals have hijacked it for their own purposes.

Depends how hard the kick in the balls is.

Now, if it's a rock bigger then both your fists put together, along with extreme jaggedness, hurled at 50+ MPH at your crotch, I think that's going to hurt.

Okay... well that's a start. Now repeat the process for a period of five hours or more. :D

In my oppinion, you have the perfect oppinion.

I'm a born & raised Italiano male, so I was raised to believe that I need to educate myself in the best possible way to support a family, however, I do believe that women should be educated, and men should know how to be the home-maker also. I think all gender roles are non-existant, even though I do believe men have the responsibility of being the best they possibly can to support their wife.

Feminists scare me though, I was raised to open the doors for women, pull out their chairs, and throw my jacket over puddles to keep their feet from getting wet. However, everytime I try to hold the door open for a feminist, they yell at me and make the statement, "I can do it on my own, thank you." It's not a matter of me thinking they are incapable, but me wanting to be the Gentleman I was raised as. And now, everytime I'm a gentleman, I tense up getting ready to be yelled at (especially in CA).

And as far as labor... Well I was there when my aunts gave birth. If you tried squeezing something that size, through a man, the race would have died out a long time ago. I may be tough, but not in a million years....

"Feminism has grown into a diverse movement with a variety of opinions, even among its leadership. Nonetheless, two schools bear mentioning. One is radical feminism, which is especially committed to fighting rape, pornography, wife abuse and the patriarchy; it emphasizes militant activism, separatism and gay rights. Another school is moderate feminism, which holds that men and women should be together and equal, and that women should be free to do whatever they desire, without discrimination, stigma or abuse. Obviously, there is much overlap between these two schools; the difference is more one of emphasis."

Or... you could just generalize and say that all feminists are men-hatin she-bitches. :rolleyes:

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Modern feminism is about equality for all.

I'm not so sure I agree with such a blanket statement- in my admittedly limited experience as the only guy in a couple of 'gender and identity' cultural studies classes, I'd say that between a quarter and a third of those who term themselves 'feminists' are looking to keep the pendulum swinging in the same direction away from men, to create a matriarchal society. Granted it's not a majority and that most strands of feminism are all about equality for everyone, which I applaud, but it is a significant minority.

And thanks to the remnants of chivalrous ideologies, they're getting the chance to do it, too- equally able to play either the new 'oppressed, independent woman fighting for equal rights' or the traditional 'sweet, helpless woman who needs a man' role as the situation requires. They can have it both ways- both roles are still widely accepted in western society, and that's a dangerous power advantage in gender politics.

I think all gender roles are non-existant
That is most definitely not true.

In my oppinion, you have the perfect oppinion.

I'm a born & raised Italiano male, so I was raised to believe that I need to educate myself in the best possible way to support a family, however, I do believe that women should be educated, and men should know how to be the home-maker also. I think all gender roles are non-existant, even though I do believe men have the responsibility of being the best they possibly can to support their wife.

Feminists scare me though, I was raised to open the doors for women, pull out their chairs, and throw my jacket over puddles to keep their feet from getting wet. However, everytime I try to hold the door open for a feminist, they yell at me and make the statement, "I can do it on my own, thank you." It's not a matter of me thinking they are incapable, but me wanting to be the Gentleman I was raised as. And now, everytime I'm a gentleman, I tense up getting ready to be yelled at (especially in CA).

And as far as labor... Well I was there when my aunts gave birth. If you tried squeezing something that size, through a man, the race would have died out a long time ago. I may be tough, but not in a million years....

I am originally from CA, so take heart. Not all Cali women hate a gentleman.

I am originally from CA, so take heart. Not all Cali women hate a gentleman.

Well the women in Los Angeles around Edwards Air Force Base hate gentlemen. Although, I'm glad that there are some who appreciate the sentiment :D.

In my oppinion, you have the perfect oppinion.

I'm a born & raised Italiano male, so I was raised to believe that I need to educate myself in the best possible way to support a family, however, I do believe that women should be educated, and men should know how to be the home-maker also. I think all gender roles are non-existant, even though I do believe men have the responsibility of being the best they possibly can to support their wife.

Feminists scare me though, I was raised to open the doors for women, pull out their chairs, and throw my jacket over puddles to keep their feet from getting wet. However, everytime I try to hold the door open for a feminist, they yell at me and make the statement, "I can do it on my own, thank you." It's not a matter of me thinking they are incapable, but me wanting to be the Gentleman I was raised as. And now, everytime I'm a gentleman, I tense up getting ready to be yelled at (especially in CA).

And as far as labor... Well I was there when my aunts gave birth. If you tried squeezing something that size, through a man, the race would have died out a long time ago. I may be tough, but not in a million years....

Well I can imagine it hurts like hell, but if it hurt SOOO bad, why do women always love and seem to want more children....past the diaper age. Modern medicine can really take the edge off it and allow women who wouldn't be able to have children easily in nature have a baby. (Also women are supposed to be a little bigger around the hips for birthing) Still....owwies. I wouldn't think it was as bad as being kicked in the balls hard, you can pass out and cough up a load of blood and be 'inactive' for weeks after that.

Though in America it is almost a CRIME to be a gentleman. I get yelled at for holding the door for women to. Then I always think, "What a bitch!" afterwards because I was being nice and not letting the door slam into their face. Their is such thing as being a gentleman and then there's being mean. Holding a door and mocking a woman cause she is a girl, that's wrong, but holding a door and giving a nice comment to a girl about her dress or the way her hair is done should not mean a slap or a rude look."

If I was a girl I'd be no different to them, a nice comment a friendly gesture hear and there. Now just because I am a man it is a crime to comment a girl with "You're hair is very pretty again today, as is always." makes me get a look like I am pervert and trying to take advantage of a woman. Same with holding a door for a girl, they take it like a reason to look at their backside or something. I have no idea what is with these neo-feminist types. Equal rights, ok! Though a man shouldn't be treated mean just because he is willing to offer a hand or comment a girl on how she looks. Gentlemen take time to notice what women go through to look good and be appealing, though most have insecurities about their own looks, it shouldn't be wrong for a man to give a nice comment here and there.

I am originally from CA, so take heart. Not all Cali women hate a gentleman.

When you say Cali I think Cali, Colombia... Ay las Callenas.

the problem with ultra-feminists is that they put down men

When you say Cali I think Cali, Colombia... Ay las Callenas.

Oops, sorry. California. After typing that long commentary, one would think I wouldn't be too lazy to type out the entire name of a state. One would think...

Feminists scare me though, I was raised to open the doors for women, pull out their chairs, and throw my jacket over puddles to keep their feet from getting wet. However, everytime I try to hold the door open for a feminist, they yell at me and make the statement, "I can do it on my own, thank you." It's not a matter of me thinking they are incapable, but me wanting to be the Gentleman I was raised as. And now, everytime I'm a gentleman, I tense up getting ready to be yelled at (especially in CA).

I am not a feminist but I hate it when people (male or female) open doors for me, pull out chairs, etc. It just makes me uncomfortable. I am well aware you are only intending to be nice but it makes me feel very awkward. I don't yell though. I just make the person sit in the chair they pulled out or make them walk through the door they opened.

the problem with ultra-feminists is that they put down men


Exactly. I have no problem with women believing in women's rights, because I believe in them just as firmly.

However, I don't enjoy being yelled at for opening the door. Although, being the Italian Gentlman I was raised to be, I will continue to do it. Even these feminists that yell at us and think we have some alterior motives must know somewhere deep down that we are just Gentleman. Although I can guarentee I won't do the whole, throw my jacket in a puddle, thing for them. That would just be wasteful....

I am not a feminist but I hate it when people (male or female) open doors for me, pull out chairs, etc. It just makes me uncomfortable. I am well aware you are only intending to be nice but it makes me feel very awkward. I don't yell though. I just make the person sit in the chair they pulled out or make them walk through the door they opened.

The difference is, you aren't rude about it. I was raised to do such things, so when they yell, sneer, and Humph at me it's a little mean.

Long gone are chastity belts and the days where female infants were disposed of because they were considered "useless" or a "burden". We are no longer expected to birth twenty children to take care of the farm or labor in layers of restrictive clothing. We can now earn as much if not more than our male counterparts and we can vote. Though it is still an issue of much debate, we can basically make our own choices regarding our bodies including abortion. We don't have to wear bras, though I highly recommend it for many women -SNIP_

I beg your pardon?

What about female circumcision in the Middle East? What about female infanticide in China? What about the recent curtailing of abortion rights in america limiting certain types of abortion, and new laws requiring teens to get parental consent for abortion, even in the case of incest? What about the exploitation of women through exhalting expectations of weight/size/beauty? Women aren't equal, we've made lots of progress, but that's because we have fought for it, refused to be left out. Blacks had the vote a good three generations before women did. Even now, Title IX is being gutted so that Texas can spend more money on football and less on girls' sports.

And i don't know what country you live in, but in the US, women only make 87 cents on the dollar compared to men. Apparently having a penis makes you worth an average of $100/week more...

If you ever have a daughter, try to explain that to her, why she isn't as valuable without a penis.

I don't recomend fighting with our men. I recommend fighting with the policy makers, whomever they are. More than likely men, but then it would be the same reversed...if too many women ran the policy, to the detriment of too many men, then that should be fought, too.

Instead of thinking of it as a fight, a see-saw where only one can be up off the ground at a time, think of it as a canoe that we all have to ride in. Ya gotta meet in the middle to keep it balanced and work together to keep it on course.
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Exactly. I have no problem with women believing in women's rights, because I believe in them just as firmly.

However, I don't enjoy being yelled at for opening the door. Although, being the Italian Gentlman I was raised to be, I will continue to do it. Even these feminists that yell at us and think we have some alterior motives must know somewhere deep down that we are just Gentleman. Although I can guarentee I won't do the whole, throw my jacket in a puddle, thing for them. That would just be wasteful....

So true. Women need to lighten up and stop reading into everything with sexual desires.

I am not a feminist but I hate it when people (male or female) open doors for me, pull out chairs, etc. It just makes me uncomfortable. I am well aware you are only intending to be nice but it makes me feel very awkward. I don't yell though. I just make the person sit in the chair they pulled out or make them walk through the door they opened.

This is because you lack manners.

I beg your pardon?

What about female circumcision in the Middle East? What about female infanticide in China? What about the recent curtailing of abortion rights in america limiting certain types of abortion, and new laws requiring teens to get parental consent for abortion, even in the case of incest? What about the exploitation of women through exhalting expectations of weight/size/beauty? Women aren't equal, we've made lots of progress, but that's because we have fought for it, refused to be left out. Blacks had the vote a good three generations before women did. Even now, Title IX is being gutted so that Texas can spend more money on football and less on girls' sports.

And i don't know what country you live in, but in the US, women only make 87 cents on the dollar compared to men. Apparently having a penis makes you worth an average of $100/week more...

If you ever have a daughter, try to explain that to her, why she isn't as valuable without a penis.

I don't recomend fighting with our men. I recommend fighting with the policy makers, whomever they are. More than likely men, but then it would be the same reversed...if too many women ran the policy, to the detriment of too many men, then that should be fought, too.

Instead of thinking of it as a fight, a see-saw where only one can be up off the ground at a time, think of it as a canoe that we all have to ride in. Ya gotta meet in the middle to keep it balanced and work together to keep it on course.
.

The world is not equal. China has a population reason. It may be wrong, but for the families to continue on the name they need a male hier. Men are also worth more then women in China.

Now as for the whole money thing, I am not sure about that, but I'd like to see some more evidence of this, my mother brings home alot a week, and she gets paid a flat rate. So this 13 cent reduction for women I don't see.

In a weird sense, women (specificaly teenage women) are going to jail more then men for assault. Women are more violent then men? (Though this was a true statistic it doesn't give a full picture, and neither does your arguement.)

This is because you lack manners.

Not at all. I am very polite. I always hold doors for people, I say please and thank you, I don't eat until the host picks up their fork. I know my manners. It just makes me uncomfortable when people do that stuff for me.

This is because you lack manners.

She already said it makes her uncomfortable regardless of the sex of the person being a gentleman/lady. It has nothing to do with manners, it is just being uncomfortable, and as long as she isn't rude, then her comfort it all that matters.

and as for opening doors and that sort of thing, well whoever gets to the door first with the ability to open it should hold it open for others following,

If you're there first, open the damn door, and if someone holds the door open, WALK THROUGH IT. A lot of public places have dual sets of doors, so you don't let the air out. So person 'A' gets to the first door first, opens it and person B walks through. Thus person B gets to the second door first and opens it for person A to walk through. .

THAT's equality.

Either one of them could hold it open for person C, who is elderly or in a wheelchair. and that's why women get all HMMPPH over it, because they feel like you are saying 'i think you are too weak and fragile to open this door by yourself'. They should take it as whoever got to the door first opened it.

Now, if you are jumping in front of her to beat her to the door so you can open it for her, well, that's just a little creepy. (unless you know her and she likes when you do that)

I am not a feminist but I hate it when people (male or female) open doors for me, pull out chairs, etc. It just makes me uncomfortable. I am well aware you are only intending to be nice but it makes me feel very awkward. I don't yell though. I just make the person sit in the chair they pulled out or make them walk through the door they opened.

Interesting, so you react to a gesture of respect and politness by embarrassing the person who is honoring you, instead of just saying thank you and explaining later that it makes you uncomfortable? Not a femininst? Tell me another one.

Liverbreath']Interesting, so you react to a gesture of respect and politness by embarrassing the person who is honoring you, instead of just saying thank you and explaining later that it makes you uncomfortable? Not a femininst? Tell me another one.

I don't force strangers to go through the door/etc. Only people who I have already explained this to (i.e. boyfriends, friends, family). Of course I am not going to embarrass a stranger who was just being polite. I wouldn't appreciate them being rude to me when I open doors for them. However once they know me and know how said things make me feel, I do not appreciate the actions continuing.

The world is not equal. China has a population reason. It may be wrong, but for the families to continue on the name they need a male hier. Men are also worth more then women in China.

Now as for the whole money thing, I am not sure about that, but I'd like to see some more evidence of this, my mother brings home alot a week, and she gets paid a flat rate. So this 13 cent reduction for women I don't see.

In a weird sense, women (specificaly teenage women) are going to jail more then men for assault. Women are more violent then men? (Though this was a true statistic it doesn't give a full picture, and neither does your arguement.)


Why need a male heir? Whole monarchies have survived not having a male heir. That is a poor excuse justifying female infanticide.

The US Department of Labor was the source of that figure. Whether you 'see' it or not, it is a real issue for women as a whole. In fact, if your mother makes equal to her male counterpart, then some other woman is working at 74 cents to the dollar. It helps to guarantee women's dependence on men, especially if they have children.

I don't believe that nationwide women are going to jail more for assault than men, unless they are given worse sentences than men get for domestic assaults... i would need your source on that one.

She already said it makes her uncomfortable regardless of the sex of the person being a gentleman/lady. It has nothing to do with manners, it is just being uncomfortable, and as long as she isn't rude, then her comfort it all that matters.

Originally Posted by Melonious Ones
I am not a feminist but I hate it when people (male or female) open doors for me, pull out chairs, etc. It just makes me uncomfortable. I am well aware you are only intending to be nice but it makes me feel very awkward. I don't yell though. I just make the person sit in the chair they pulled out or make them walk through the door they opened.

It takes very little effort to say "thankyou" and sit down and the result is the person feels gallant. It takes more effort to refuse the kind gesture and the result is maybe the person won't be so gallant the next time around to someone else who might appreciate the gesture. The bottom line is when you refuse a kind gesture, you are putting your comfort above someone elses.

Liverbreath']Interesting, so you react to a gesture of respect and politness by embarrassing the person who is honoring you, instead of just saying thank you and explaining later that it makes you uncomfortable? Not a femininst? Tell me another one.

Also, don't tell me I am a feminist. I hate women. I think the feminist movement is a crock of shit. If women wanted to be treated as equals, they wouldn't be against women being drafted into the army and they wouldn't allow themselves to be treated like a piece of meat.

It takes very little effort to say "thankyou" and sit down and the result is the person feels gallant. It takes more effort to refuse the kind gesture and the result is maybe the person won't be so gallant the next time around to someone else who might appreciate the gesture.

That is only to people who should know better. I wouldn't be rude to a stranger by doing that but I expect my boyfriend to know that I don't like it and to not do it.

"From what I understand, many campus feminists think that marching across a stage chanting the word 'Vagina' will eventually win them the right to vote. I think it just makes them look stupid. But, what do I know. I’m a happy man, without an angry Vagina."

-Dr. Adams
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/mikeadams/ma20050317.shtml

I beg your pardon?

What about female circumcision in the Middle East? What about female infanticide in China? What about the recent curtailing of abortion rights in america limiting certain types of abortion, and new laws requiring teens to get parental consent for abortion, even in the case of incest? What about the exploitation of women through exhalting expectations of weight/size/beauty? Women aren't equal, we've made lots of progress, but that's because we have fought for it, refused to be left out. Blacks had the vote a good three generations before women did. Even now, Title IX is being gutted so that Texas can spend more money on football and less on girls' sports.

And i don't know what country you live in, but in the US, women only make 87 cents on the dollar compared to men. Apparently having a penis makes you worth an average of $100/week more...

If you ever have a daughter, try to explain that to her, why she isn't as valuable without a penis.

I don't recomend fighting with our men. I recommend fighting with the policy makers, whomever they are. More than likely men, but then it would be the same reversed...if too many women ran the policy, to the detriment of too many men, then that should be fought, too.

Instead of thinking of it as a fight, a see-saw where only one can be up off the ground at a time, think of it as a canoe that we all have to ride in. Ya gotta meet in the middle to keep it balanced and work together to keep it on course.
.

If you've been paying attention, I live in the United States, too.
-We circumcise males on a more than regular basis. What about them?
-Infanticide in China? That's awful! But it is not as common a practice as it once was.
-Parental consent for abortion, while not ideal in some cases, is most likely an attempt to avoid nasty lawsuits. I don't think most surgical procedures are allowed on a minor without parental consent. I may be wrong, though.
-Exploitation of a woman's image is only exploitation if we allow it to be. Everyone has their own idea of beauty and fat women get men just as easily as skinny women. P.S. I'm overweight, I should know.
-I make $10 an hour, my boyfriend makes $8. Can't go making generalizations like that.

I have a son and I would rather explain to him why he isn't a piece of woman-hating crap for having a penis.

Progress is an ongoing process and there's a long way to go for everybody, genders and races.

That is only to people who should know better. I wouldn't be rude to a stranger by doing that but I expect my boyfriend to know that I don't like it and to not do it.

So people should know better than to be civil with you? Sucks to be your boyfriend.

She already said it makes her uncomfortable regardless of the sex of the person being a gentleman/lady. It has nothing to do with manners, it is just being uncomfortable, and as long as she isn't rude, then her comfort it all that matters.
Manners means doing what is socially appropriate regardless of your personal comfort level.

Using a salad fork (causing extra soiled silver) makes me uncomfortable - largely becaues I have had to do dishes ans polish the silver. However, manners (etiquite) says I must use the salad fork, and use it only for salad.

Ditto for accepting the proffered door, apre' vie, chair or apertif. Unless you have a significant reason for declining (like Religion... at which point the host's offer was a faux pas) the mannerly thing to do is accept graciously - and to hell with personal feelings. You may hate sherry, but you damn well take a false-sip anyway.

When someone offers you a door or chair, say "Thank you" and be done with it. Anything else is boorish.

Also, don't tell me I am a feminist. I hate women. I think the feminist movement is a crock of shit. If women wanted to be treated as equals, they wouldn't be against women being drafted into the army and they wouldn't allow themselves to be treated like a piece of meat.

i might be considered a feminist, in that i believe that women and men should be considered equal in all parts of public life. If people want to play dominant/passive roles in their personal life, then what do i care as long as they both agree to their own rules.

i do object to women being drafted into the army. However, i also object to men being drafted into the army. :)

And 'allowing' oneself to be treated like meat...well, slaves 'allowed' themselves to be enslaved, and jews 'allowed' themselves to be targeted for horrors. THat's blaming the victim. If she LIKES being sexually provocative, then that's her choice, and if it's wrong, then where did she get the idea that MEN LIKE THAT? brainwashed by Britney? Come on.

So people should know better than to be civil with you? Sucks to be your boyfriend.

Actually all of the guys I have dated have really appreciated that. They say it makes me like a guy friend they want to fuck.

It isn't a matter of being civil. It seems quite uncivil to continue doing something that you know makes someone uncomfortable, doesn't it?

I don't force strangers to go through the door/etc. Only people who I have already explained this to (i.e. boyfriends, friends, family). Of course I am not going to embarrass a stranger who was just being polite. I wouldn't appreciate them being rude to me when I open doors for them. However once they know me and know how said things make me feel, I do not appreciate the actions continuing.

Thanks for explaining a bit further. You had me picturing in my mind the attempt to open a door for Zula (Grace Jones in Conan the Destroyer) and the probable reaction to it.

Why need a male heir? Whole monarchies have survived not having a male heir. That is a poor excuse justifying female infanticide.

The US Department of Labor was the source of that figure. Whether you 'see' it or not, it is a real issue for women as a whole. In fact, if your mother makes equal to her male counterpart, then some other woman is working at 74 cents to the dollar. It helps to guarantee women's dependence on men, especially if they have children.

I don't believe that nationwide women are going to jail more for assault than men, unless they are given worse sentences than men get for domestic assaults... i would need your source on that one.

Having a male heir for FAMILIES, not just politics, but for working and supporting a family. Men can work and generally do more jobs and make a living, a woman cannot do this. So men are wanted. I don't like it, but its a fact. Society sometimes sucks.

Now for your little thing, it was an old article I read, but I found a article with the same basic info.

http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/565

According to Justice Department data, between 1990 and 1999 the number of assault arrests of girls increased by 85 percent, from 24,062 in 1990 to 44,524 in 1999. Comparatively, boys' assault arrests increased 22 percent over the same nine years, from 91,437 in 1990 to 111,263 in 1999. The numbers represent all types of assault arrests, including aggravated assault.

Female delinquency cases rose 83 percent from 1988 to 1997, from about 225,000 cases to 412,000, according to a new study, "Justice by Gender."

The article has two viewpoints and is what I consider a complete arguement. Since it is also a fairly reputable site, I would consider this information as true, as it relates strongly to the article I read.

i might be considered a feminist, in that i believe that women and men should be considered equal in all parts of public life. If people want to play dominant/passive roles in their personal life, then what do i care as long as they both agree to their own rules.

i do object to women being drafted into the army. However, i also object to men being drafted into the army. :)

And 'allowing' oneself to be treated like meat...well, slaves 'allowed' themselves to be enslaved, and jews 'allowed' themselves to be targeted for horrors. THat's blaming the victim. If she LIKES being sexually provocative, then that's her choice, and if it's wrong, then where did she get the idea that MEN LIKE THAT? brainwashed by Britney? Come on.

I agree with you on the first point, and the second I am sure you know what I meant.

As for the third, I blame the victim as much as the offender. I never said women cannot dress provocatively and I quite enjoy doing so myself. Women respond to men's attractions in such a way as to suggest it is wrong. (of course, I am generalizing and I realize this is not always the case) If women want to be treated as equals, they have to learn to demand it. Don't sleep with your boss to get ahead, don't strip for an occupation and then be surprised when people think you might not have the utmost moral standing. As a comedian whose name I can't remember once said, not all women that dress provactively are whores, but they need to understand they are dressed the part. If someone were to walk around dressed as a cop, you'd think they are a cop. If a woman walks around with everything exposed, people might just think she is a whore. It works the same way with a guy; if he walks around wearing spankies and no shirt, people will think he is sleazy.

i might be considered a feminist, in that i believe that women and men should be considered equal in all parts of public life. If people want to play dominant/passive roles in their personal life, then what do i care as long as they both agree to their own rules.

i do object to women being drafted into the army. However, i also object to men being drafted into the army. :)

And 'allowing' oneself to be treated like meat...well, slaves 'allowed' themselves to be enslaved, and jews 'allowed' themselves to be targeted for horrors. THat's blaming the victim. If she LIKES being sexually provocative, then that's her choice, and if it's wrong, then where did she get the idea that MEN LIKE THAT? brainwashed by Britney? Come on.


I assume you mean to the negro population from Africa...Now if I recall the words of Mr. Morrison correctly, he said that the 'slaves' were actually payment for weapons to fight ongoing tribal conflicts. They would come to the beaches and give the people to the whites in return for supplies. Now I am not saying with was forciful, but if it was allowed then we can get an understanding on why the so-called 'slaves' didn't fight and attack the whites before they realized how horrible the conditions were on the ship. Hell, I would attack to. Though the inabilty of the white slave traders to go into the jungles of africa without being overwhelmed by bugs and dying from diseases that their bodies had no resistance is proof enough that no all cases of slavery were forceful capture. Unwanted by the people maybe, but it wasn't kidnapping.

The whole Jews being ALLOWED to be targeted I disagree with, but I rather not attempt to argue that as it was long term history and hate fueled by the fact the Jewish population was successful and careful in managing businesses even in hard times. They were also the scapegoats to the fall of German power, if being successful and making a living is a crime, I rather not know what's right.

Though you do have a point, some people and women do TRY to get bad attention and monopolize it. We see these things in the news from time to time with celebrities and other events that focus on what's shocking, cause it gets attention and helps the news people pay the bills.

[QUOTE]Actually all of the guys I have dated have really appreciated that. They say it makes me like a guy friend they want to fuck.

If this is the case the men you hang out with are homosexuals.

It isn't a matter of being civil. It seems quite uncivil to continue doing something that you know makes someone uncomfortable, doesn't it?

It's uncivil to be ungratefull.

If you've been paying attention, I live in the United States, too.
-We circumcise males on a more than regular basis. What about them?
-Infanticide in China? That's awful! But it is not as common a practice as it once was.
-Parental consent for abortion, while not ideal in some cases, is most likely an attempt to avoid nasty lawsuits. I don't think most surgical procedures are allowed on a minor without parental consent. I may be wrong, though.
-Exploitation of a woman's image is only exploitation if we allow it to be. Everyone has their own idea of beauty and fat women get men just as easily as skinny women. P.S. I'm overweight, I should know.
-I make $10 an hour, my boyfriend makes $8. Can't go making generalizations like that.

I have a son and I would rather explain to him why he isn't a piece of woman-hating crap for having a penis.

Progress is an ongoing process and there's a long way to go for everybody, genders and races.


If ive been paying attention? Are you famous around here or something? How would i know where you are from? From the sounds of it, you are from Switzerland or Sweden or the Netherlands, where women actually are almost equal in pay.

I also disagree with male circumcision. I believe a penis works properly with all the skin God intended. Okay, so he has to spend a little more attention keeping it clean. big deal. I dont think either one shoud be circumcised.

I can't speak to the most recent changes in Chinese infanticide, but since they put population controls on, the rate has increased. Perhaps with an influx of recent birth control methods it may have dropped some. If so, i hadn't heard that. source please.

I also don't have a problem with the parental consent, but they should have allowed for incest cases. it was just a minor point in the erosion of reproductive rights.

I can't judge by your salaries whether there is a gender gap. Do you do the exact same work for the exact same company is part of the pay commission or gratuity? If you get that disparate of pay at equal work, i will eat my hat and withdraw the statement. Otherwise it stands. Equal work only gives an average woman and average pay of averagely 87 cents to the average dollar an average man makes.

I can make generalizations if i name them as generalizations and not as absolutes.

I would never accuse your son of being a woman hating piece of crap, unless he DID something that proved he was a woman hating piece of crap. Not because he has a penis. That would be the same injustice as saying a woman 'is whatever' because she doesn't have a penis. It's that kind of stupid blind statement that lovers of freedom and equality are against.

[QUOTE=Melonious Ones]

If this is the case the men you hang out with are homosexuals.



It's uncivil to be ungratefull.

Some of them are homosexual. What of it? And otherwise, no.

It is uncivil to continue on with unwanted actions. If you hug someone that you know hates being hugged, it makes you rather rude. Eventually the nice action becomes malevolent when you know they would rather you didn't.

[QUOTE=Melonious Ones]

If this is the case the men you hang out with are homosexuals.



It's uncivil to be ungratefull.

Maybe bi-guys, some women are attracted to guys who are bisexual more then hetero.

Also right about the uncivil os being ungrateful. It may seem like a small action, but it is a nice and kind thing. Unless you have lost your humanity and wish to be a loner, devoid to deal with respectable people because even the slightest bit of attention or action makes you feel uncomfortable. Now can you honestly say you don't want people to treat you like a person and help you out when you stumble in life, or when it is nice to simply make a simple action like holding a door for a person become weird or awkward. I like it when people hold the door for me, girl or guy, doesn't matter. I am pissed when one arrogant asshole decides to let one of the doors swing shut or go as far as to pull it and close it faster on me.

Oops, sorry. California. After typing that long commentary, one would think I wouldn't be too lazy to type out the entire name of a state. One would think...

Amongst other posts in this thread regarding my whereabouts. It's ok, I am famous in my private world where I reside most of the time.

Well, it is also civil on the mans part, to take into account how the woman feels.

I love opening doors for women, pulling their chairs out, even walking on the outside of the sidewalk in a busy street, However, if a woman does not like that then being the gentlman I am, should change my ways. The Key to being a gentleman, is making women feel comfortable and needed, while being a man, and there is nothing manly in continously doing something they are uncomfortable with. Granted, I may feel hurt at first, it is my job as a Gentleman to take into account their comfort, and to conform around it.

A Gentleman is a well-mannered and considerate man with high standards of proper behavior, and being considerate means understanding she is uncomfortable with my actions, and changing them for her.

Having a male heir for FAMILIES, not just politics, but for working and supporting a family. Men can work and generally do more jobs and make a living, a woman cannot do this. So men are wanted. I don't like it, but its a fact. Society sometimes sucks.

It is this kind of ignorance that women are trying to fight. Men and women are both capable of working. Men actually, on the average, make better laborers because they are built for strength. But women have better fine motor skills for doing detailed work, which should make them better doctors, better artisans, better computer programmers, and they have more tuned people skills, so they are better in almost all customer relations jobs.. Unless you only think that digging ditches and pounding nails is 'work' then you are sadly mistaken. Women are capable of as many jobs as men are

Now for your little thing, it was an old article I read, but I found a article with the same basic info.

http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/565





The article has two viewpoints and is what I consider a complete arguement. Since it is also a fairly reputable site, I would consider this information as true, as it relates strongly to the article I read.

If you read the statistics carefully, it does NOT say that women committed more assaults than men did. It says their rate increased faster.

If last year two girls got into a fight, and this year three girls got into a fight, that's an increase of 50%. If the boys got into a hundred fights last year and a hundred and twenty fights this year, it's an increase of only 20%. this in no way proves that women are more violent than men. It only proves that womens assault numbers may be small enough that a small increase appears to be a large statistical gain. You would have to show me the actual incident numbers compared to population. NOt increase rates.

[QUOTE]Some of them are homosexual. What of it? And otherwise, no.

Do you always express yourself with such clarity? If so I can see why some of your friends still hold the door open for you.

It is uncivil to continue on with unwanted actions. If you hug someone that you know hates being hugged, it makes you rather rude. Eventually the nice action becomes malevolent when you know they would rather you didn't.

You seem to be making a big deal over an action that makes your life easier. This is called being ungrateful. And manners and etiquette are what bind society together. Some people like being gallant because it makes them feel good about themselves. I'm not one of them, but I know many who are. I also have a lot of friends and relatives who like to hug and kiss, some of them have terrible breath and body odour, but I indulge their affection because it encourages them to be caring and loving people. You're attitude is extremely selfish and inconsiderate, I don't know of anything that has more potential for malevolence than this.

Amongst other posts in this thread regarding my whereabouts. It's ok, I am famous in my private world where I reside most of the time.

when i assumed you were from Europe somewhere, i had only read your first post. The other posts must have happened while i was typing. I'm sorry you do not rate so large on my radar that i keep notes about everything you say. I tend to not pay attention to banter not related to the topic at hand, as in whether you were from Cali-fornia or Cali-Columbia. That post i remember, but same as the post he was referring to, can't remember who posted it. I wasn't involved in that conversation. i was talking about the feminism thing.

I can't judge by your salaries whether there is a gender gap. Do you do the exact same work for the exact same company is part of the pay commission or gratuity? If you get that disparate of pay at equal work, i will eat my hat and withdraw the statement. Otherwise it stands. Equal work only gives an average woman and average pay of averagely 87 cents to the average dollar an average man makes.

My current job has very few men at all. So I guess they're being discriminated against. Still, I have worked other jobs where we did the same thing and were paid equally. I will also use my mother as an example. She went to work for the Post Office as a maintenance mechanic. It was unheard of for a woman to work in that position at the time, but through hard work and determination, she maintained her position and is now a supervisor. She owns two houses and a sizeable estate. So if that's inequality, go Mom!

I have never in my life been chastised by a woman for opening the door for her. I've done so on a daily basis for as long as I can remember, and never even gotten a dirty look for it. Mind you I'll open the door for other guys too. if the situation calls for it. Its just a common courtesy, not chivalry.

Yet I'm forever and a day hearing from guys who say they get in crap for opening the door for a woman. Am I part of some strange sub-race that can get away with it? Is it my good looks? My body language? Or is it (as I suspect) just a *gross exageration* of things.


I must admit, if *anyone* yelled at me for holding the open for her I'd slam it full force in their face, so I guess its good thing this near-mytchical event has never happened to me.

My current job has very few men at all. So I guess they're being discriminated against. Still, I have worked other jobs where we did the same thing and were paid equally. I will also use my mother as an example. She went to work for the Post Office as a maintenance mechanic. It was unheard of for a woman to work in that position at the time, but through hard work and determination, she maintained her position and is now a supervisor. She owns two houses and a sizeable estate. So if that's inequality, go Mom!


Yes, Go Mom. Without the women's movement, she wouldn't have been able to do that.

Women all over the world are still waiting to reap the benefits of the fight as your mother has. Just because you see one success story, don't forget about the ones still falling through the cracks. We DO have a long way to go, both in the gender and the racial areas.

Do you always express yourself with such clarity, if so I can see why some of them still hold the door open for you.

Actually none of them do. So I think it might just be you.

You seem to be making a big deal over an action that makes your life easier.

I have never made a big deal about it. All I say is please don't do that anymore and they don't do it anymore. If they did continue, I would probably just live with it.

Some people like being gallant because it makes them feel good about themselves. I'm not one of them, but I know many who are.

And I enjoy feeling independant. If one of them asked me to allow them to continue such practices, I'd probably let them. Until then, I would like them to respect my wishes.

I also have a lot of friends and relatives who like to hug and kiss, some of them have terrible breath and body odour, but I indulge their affection because it encourages them to be caring and loving people.

I have many of them too. I allow it as well. However, if I were to say that I'd prefer not to be hugged, I would expect them to honour my wishes.

You're attitude is extremely selfish and inconsiderate, I don't know of anything that has more potential than malevolence than this.

I don't see how letting someone know that their actions are unneccessary when many men do it just to impress a woman or because they feel they are obligated to is being selfish or inconsiderate. I don't tend to go for guys who would feel gallant about such actions. If I knew someone enjoyed opening the door for me, I wouldn't stop them but since I doubt I have ever encountered such a person, I will continue asking them to kindly let me open the door for myself for future reference. That isn't to say they can't open the door first, but I'd rather they not wait for me to enter before going. I don't see how I am important enough to require precedence.

PS...while i love to hear the success story of the individual woman, the fact that Condi Rice is Secretary of State does NOT mean that racism and sexism have ended once and for all.

They didn't quit fighting the American Civil war once a few hundred slaves were freed. Slavery isn't over until ALL the slaves are freed.

when i assumed you were from Europe somewhere, i had only read your first post. The other posts must have happened while i was typing. I'm sorry you do not rate so large on my radar that i keep notes about everything you say. I tend to not pay attention to banter not related to the topic at hand, as in whether you were from Cali-fornia or Cali-Columbia. That post i remember, but same as the post he was referring to, can't remember who posted it. I wasn't involved in that conversation. i was talking about the feminism thing.

Querido Trupical Muntana,

Colombia is spelt Colombia,

muis amable,

Oye Oye

PS...while i love to hear the success story of the individual woman, the fact that Condi Rice is Secretary of State does NOT mean that racism and sexism have ended once and for all.

They didn't quit fighting the American Civil war once a few hundred slaves were freed. Slavery isn't over until ALL the slaves are freed.

I think we both agree that nobody's fight is over. Peace my friend. I have to go home, so everyone have a good night.

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Modern feminism is about equality for all.
Feminism is about supremacy, not equality. I hate femenists, hate 'em all.

-snip-QUOTE]

Here's one lengthy Chinese history article:

http://ieas.berkeley.edu/shorenstein/1998.05.html

[QUOTE]
Chinese parents practiced infanticide to regulate the number and sex of their children. Son preference, dating back to the origins of ancestral worship in the second and third millennia B.C., and hypergamy meant that daughters were not only culturally considered inferior, they were also perceived by most families as a net economic and emotional loss. While infanticide declined spectacularly in China during the early twentieth century, sex ratios continue to be biased toward males, implying the continued practice of infanticide and neglect. As a result, not only was Chinese marital fertility in the past lower than Western marital fertility, the average number of female children surviving to adulthood was particularly low compared to female survivorship in the West.


Reason plain and simple there, sums up the anicent reason. The article goes into later on, but this is a reason stated for the act.


Your response to the article was a little harsh, but remember it was still under the fact that woman's crimes go unreportted more often then mens. The changes in the courts show this. Can you actually read the whole article instead of the excerpt I provided? It was a very indepth article for it.

http://www.rouncefield.homestead.com/files/a_soc_dev_45.htm
http://www.menstuff.org/issues/byissue/womensviolence.html

In 1998 there were 2,335,000 reported cases of spousal abuse. 1,500,00 women were abused by their husbands or boyfriends. However, many that haven't been around or heard the stories over the years were shocked to see that 835,000 men were battered by their wives or girlfriends which represent over 1/3 of all domestic violence cases. Other reports by the U. S. Justice Department showed that "out of 8,000 men surveyed, 9.7% of male domestic violence victims took out restraining orders. Out of 8,000 women surveyed, 68% violated restraining orders. And, each year, approximately 1 in 1,000 men report violent victimization by an intimate." This doesn't count emotional or verbal abuse.

From BlackMen magazine: "In a report that was released by the U.S. Justice Department at year's end, women commit about 2.1 million violent crimes each year in the US, three-quarters of which are violent assaults on other women. By comparison, men commit about 13 million violent crimes, just over half of which are simple assaults and 70 percent of their victims are males, the department's Bureau of Justice Statistics reproted. 'Women are where men were during the 1960s and 1970s, using their fsts when they commit violent assaults,' says Jack Levin of the Brudnick Center for Violence and Northeaster University in Boston."

Doing the staticistic and information here. It seems women ARE more violent then men. Men don't go as drastic and when a wife abuses them they rarely take action. This also doesn't count emotional things to....

<snip>I can't judge by your salaries whether there is a gender gap. Do you do the exact same work for the exact same company is part of the pay commission or gratuity? If you get that disparate of pay at equal work, i will eat my hat and withdraw the statement. Otherwise it stands. Equal work only gives an average woman and average pay of averagely 87 cents to the average dollar an average man makes. <snip>
I can speak to this one...

In my office there are 2 female employees - our receptionist/secretary who is getting paid twice what she is worth for her skill level simply because my boss is a soft touch for hard luck cases (36 years old and can't spell/type/use spellcheck without supervision) and a CAD employee.

Our CAD employee just took 30 days paid leave to have a baby. SHe was on 3/4 time before the birth and will be on 3/4 time (plus lactation pumping breaks) for another couple of months... then, besides her "normal" holiday, vacation and sick time, she also takes far more frequent absenses from work to deal with issues relating to her other child... one she does not even have custody of.

Why should we be paying her the same rate when she doesn't "do equal work"? According to the "rules" she does exactly the same job as ourother CAD employees, but her cumulative billable hours - those hours that should count toward senority - are significantly lower than our male employees. That oft touted 87% figure continues to fail to take these lifestyle choices into account. As an employer, I should not be paying you extra to be a mommy (or daddy). I pay for work done and hours spent efficiently doing it. It is a CHOICE to be a parent, and the burden of that choice should not be placed upon the employer... who had no say in the choice.

If, in the large, women make 87% of what men in the same job make, look to the non-work related choices that could lead to it. It's not your sex that's important, it's how you CHOOSE to spend your time.

Parenting is a full-time job in and of itself. Even if you fob off the kid(s) to the daycare, you can expect to lose at least 30% efficiency during the first year, and possibly the second. That's 15% per adult - not counting maternity leave - ... and bingo... there's your 85%.

Check it out sometime. Compare apples to apples (non-breeders to non-breeders) and I think you will see that wage gap close to almost nothing.

Querido Trupical Muntana,

Colombia is spelt Colombia,

muis amable,

Oye Oye

And Spain is spelt Espan~a. Si te preocupes de cada error de deletrea o gramatica, estaras mas ocupado que un one legged ass kicker.

Actually none of them do. So I think it might just be you.

This seems to be your attitude towards anyone who doesn't conform to your way of thinking. Don't make an effort to communicate, it's everyone else whose got the problem, right?

I have never made a big deal about it. All I say is please don't do that anymore and they don't do it anymore. If they did continue, I would probably just live with it.

You've already stated that you make people walk through doors and sit in chairs that they hold for you. Did you want to retract that part of your post?

And I enjoy feeling independant.

So live in the wilderness and you won't have to worry about people holding doors or chairs for you anymore.

If one of them asked me to allow them to continue such practices, I'd probably let them. Until then, I would like them to respect my wishes.

Again it is your wish that matters most.

I have many of them too. I allow it as well. However, if I were to say that I'd prefer not to be hugged, I would expect them to honour my wishes.

Of course your royal magesty, it is the obligation of the world to honour your wish.

I don't see how letting someone know that their actions are unneccessary when many men do it just to impress a woman or because they feel they are obligated to is being selfish or inconsiderate.

Ofcourse you don't, that's what makes you inconsiderate.

I don't tend to go for guys who would feel gallant about such actions.

So every man who holds a door open for you is doing it because he wants to get into your pants?

If I knew someone enjoyed opening the door for me, I wouldn't stop them but since I doubt I have ever encountered such a person, I will continue asking them to kindly let me open the door for myself for future reference. That isn't to say they can't open the door first, but I'd rather they not wait for me to enter before going. I don't see how I am important enough to require precedence.

But you are obviously important enough that they must curtail their chivalry to conform to your lack of manners.

Uh ya...which also goes with how my mother works full time and doesn't need to take care of two teenage boys, btw, my mom divorced and still holds a job and feeds two extra mouths. When she brings home as much as everyone else and sometimes even a little more depending if she works overtime, and she gets 2½ on holidays she can easily make the same as any man because she works the full hours and doesn't have to care or leave work.

And Spain is spelt Espan~a. Si te preocupes de cada error de deletrea o gramatica, estaras mas ocupado que un one legged ass kicker.

Good to see your making your location a reality.

Just admit it when you're wrong.

[QUOTE=Tropical Montana]-snip-QUOTE]

Here's one lengthy Chinese history article:

http://ieas.berkeley.edu/shorenstein/1998.05.html



Reason plain and simple there, sums up the anicent reason. The article goes into later on, but this is a reason stated for the act.


Your response to the article was a little harsh, but remember it was still under the fact that woman's crimes go unreportted more often then mens. The changes in the courts show this. Can you actually read the whole article instead of the excerpt I provided? It was a very indepth article for it.

http://www.rouncefield.homestead.com/files/a_soc_dev_45.htm
http://www.menstuff.org/issues/byissue/womensviolence.html





Doing the staticistic and information here. It seems women ARE more violent then men. Men don't go as drastic and when a wife abuses them they rarely take action. This also doesn't count emotional things to....


The question is did YOU read your own numbers? Twice as many women are beat up by their men than men who are beat up by their girlfriends?. Supports my point.

2 million vs 13 million ALSO supports my point.

Good to see your making your location a reality.

Just admit it when you're wrong.


I thought i did. Shall i beg forgiveness too? Cripes, a simple one-letter spelling error and i have to devote two posts to it.

GET OVER IT.

and i totally don't get your comment on making my location a reality. Care to explain?

Gay guy view.......

Feminism...hmmmmm
Its an interesting idea all right and i think that its stands for equality.
but in this age women are getting close to equal and even now they have started to push for rights that men dont even have.
this is a bit odd but when these things happen they have a way of going over the top so i will accept that. i am not extremist in either way i try to be an impartiall judge as much as i can but it does not always work.
although men are usually paid more money that is because we can work harder in labour jobs but i am not sure that it is fair that women should be paid less in the office as it is in no way proven that women are less capable at jobs of that type.
i agree that there are many extremists in the world and a few of them are on the side of feminism but they can cause problems by becoming to greedy for themselves because when they have been given something they fell that they are winning (this doesnt just apply to women but to any extremist working for anything). The extremist disgust me on both sides and because of that i try to ignore them but i felt i should say something in this post.
I think overall that feminism is a good thing as long as people do not get too greedy either way.

This seems to be your attitude towards anyone who doesn't conform to your way of thinking. Don't make an effort to communicate, it's everyone else whose got the problem, right?
<big snip>
But you are obviously important enough that they must curtail their chivalry to conform to your lack of manners.
Why are you and I in agreement? I thought we were philosophically diametrically opposed... :eek: :p :D

'maybe we can call this "Just Chivalry Theory"? ;)

[QUOTE=Kjata Major]


The question is did YOU read your own numbers? Twice as many women are beat up by their men than men who are beat up by their girlfriends?. Supports my point.

2 million vs 13 million ALSO supports my point.

Stop looking at face values precious. Sure the numbers are very high, but thing about it for JUST a minute.

2 million women commit 3/4 of VIOLENT offenses on other women. 1.5 mil violent attacks. Men have half as simple assaults. so 6.5 are left.

Condersiding that women are currently part of 5% of the US prisons that means men commit 4.33 times more crimes then women. Yet this doesn't show that statistic...now...I am talking VIOLENT offenses. Women do this more then men, men may have more charges but aren't as violent per crime ratio either.


Now I wasn't saying women committed more crimes, I was saying they were more violent. Now if you looked at the thing, this must have stood out:

I don't remember ever seeing this reported in the media in the U.S. Usually, when our media report on women in prison, it's filled with stories of why it's not really the woman's fault, or the poor conditions, or how they are being kept from their children. However, there isn't the big interest in keeping American women's violence hidden outside the U.S. Here's one report from the British magaine FHM. "Violent babes on America's Death Row put their male counterparts to shame. The U.S. is home to some of the world's most violent women - 48 of whom are currently awaiting execution on Death Row." Examples: Faye Copeland, Death Row's oldest killing machine (at 67), and Christa Gail Pike, now 22, is the youngest. She used a pair of cutters and assorted rocks to torture and murder a 19-year-old girl on the state university campus in Knoxville in January, 1995. She confessed to the killing but denied keeping bits of her victim's skull because, she said, that would be "disgusting." Then there's LaFonda Gay Foster who at 23, during a cocaine and booze bender in April, 1986, shot and stabbed five victims, running several of them over in her car and setting fire to two of the bodies. Aileen Carol Wuornos, branded "The Most Dangerous Woman in the USA" (See photo above at left), killed a 51-year-old Clearwater repair shop owner in January 1992 along with three other victims. She made a somewhat flimsy claim that each of the murders was self-defense. Mary Ellen Samuels may be the only woman in the history of the U.S. to hire a hit man to kill another hit man whom she had already employed. To boot, the original hit man she was planning to oust had just become engaged to her daughter. What a nice mother. And finally, Brittany Marlowe Holberg, 23, was given the coveted "Public Enemy Number One" tag on America's Most Wanted in November, 1996. She murdered an 80-year-old Amarillo gentleman by ramming a lamp pole down his throat. Undoubtedly, all of these women had something go wrong growing up. Yet, they did what they did. It's interesting that when a man commits a hanous crime, nobody bothers to look at his childhood for sympathy

Is it just me or is that SICK! Face it women have a higher violent action ratio then men. That alone is enough to prove that when a women commits a violent act it is more serious then men. The articles also show that women admit it and usually get lighter sentances from it. Also the law is lighter on women. As a second thing, men who are assaulted or hurt by their close lover, girlfirend, wife...etc 1 in 1000 REPORT violent attacks it. 9.7% of men get restraining orders to womens 68%. Hmm....this easily suggests that nearly 7x more crimes are committed by women of this lighter action but it goes unreported and that's just to equal the reports of men!

So like it or not the far majority of lighter assaults which AREN'T mentioned shows they aren't reported or taken action on. Meaning this could be that women are just as violent or are more violent then men!

I thought i did. Shall i beg forgiveness too? Cripes, a simple one-letter spelling error and i have to devote two posts to it.

GET OVER IT.

and i totally don't get your comment on making my location a reality. Care to explain?

Dismissing my post by telling me how to spell España didn't seem like much of an apology, nor does being a one legged ass kicker seem a good way to make the world more peaceful.

Why are you and I in agreement? I thought we were philosophically diametrically opposed... :eek: :p :D

'maybe we can call this "Just Chivalry Theory"? ;)

LOL... first I find out Pamela Anderson is a member of PETA and now this.

The world really has gone side ways.

We can now earn as much if not more than our male counterparts and we can vote. Though it is still an issue of much debate, we can basically make our own choices regarding our bodies including abortion. We don't have to wear bras, though I highly recommend it for many women.
It is not merely an issue of debate if some people get their way. In fact the honest truth is the State in the US regularly interferes with the bodies of women. You do realise that even though it is not a crime for a man to drink continuously then impregnate a women, women can be charged with a crime if they drink while pregnant, even though the risks of both these behaviours is the same?

So what are we fighting with our men for?
I know very few feminists who are 'fighting with men'...

what I'm getting at in this lengthy (I do apologize) thread, is what are feminists still riled up over?
Many feminists are not 'riled up', they are concerned and/or interested. Many feminists (contrary to popular opinion) spend a great deal of time working on knowledge related issues or working on improving things for women in parts of the world where this is a very necessary effort. The fact that you may not be aware of this really proves just how low-key most feminist efforts are.

Feminists scare me though, I was raised to open the doors for women, pull out their chairs, and throw my jacket over puddles to keep their feet from getting wet. However, everytime I try to hold the door open for a feminist, they yell at me and make the statement, "I can do it on my own, thank you."
May I ask how you know that everytime you try to hold the door open for a feminist they yell at you? I find it difficult to believe that everytime you hold the door open for someone you ask if the person them if they are a feminist. You may consider that it is obvious the women yelling at you are feminists, whether or not this is an accurate assumption, I will put aside. What I will ask you is how you know that people who say 'thank you' are not feminists? Are you just assuming that anyone not offended cannot be a feminist? I know plenty of feminists who are more than happy to have doors opened for them, or to recieve similar consideration from other persons, regardless of the gender of the person offering the consideration.

Though in America it is almost a CRIME to be a gentleman. I get yelled at for holding the door for women to
Well perhaps the problem is not feminists....perhaps it is a cultural issue. I have never yet witnessed this happening even though I and the people I 'hang out' with are all 'door-openers'.

The world is not equal. China has a population reason. It may be wrong, but for the families to continue on the name they need a male hier. Men are also worth more then women in China.
So in other words there is still a lot of work for people who care about the well-being of females? Might I again reiterate that a lot of feminists channel their efforts into exactly this, trying to help improve the lot of people living in much less fortunate circumstances than themselvs. The fact that there is a population problem in China does not justify or explain why females are disportionately negatively effected by the problem. It does explain why feminism is not an unnecessary or obsolete concern.

Now as for the whole money thing, I am not sure about that, but I'd like to see some more evidence of this, my mother brings home alot a week, and she gets paid a flat rate. So this 13 cent reduction for women I don't see.
Having a male heir for FAMILIES, not just politics, but for working and supporting a family. Men can work and generally do more jobs and make a living, a woman cannot do this. So men are wanted. I don't like it, but its a fact. Society sometimes sucks
You dont believe it and need evidence but you do believe it...perhaps you just believe what you want to, all facts and your own opinion aside...are you being entirely reasonable in stating you disbelieve women are economically disadvantaged but believe men are necessary because women are economically disadvantaged....I cant see.

and as for opening doors and that sort of thing, well whoever gets to the door first with the ability to open it should hold it open for others following,
I completely agree, I would also like to point out as a practitioner of the above policy, that the number of people who give me weird looks or appear offended by my doing so appears evenly split between males and females. In my experiance people of neither gender have ever verbally criticised me for doing so, but small and so far as I can tell equal numbers of females and males appear to be discomforted or weirded out by my gesture....go figure, some people are just like that I guess.

Also, don't tell me I am a feminist. I hate women. I think the feminist movement is a crock of shit. If women wanted to be treated as equals, they wouldn't be against women being drafted into the army and they wouldn't allow themselves to be treated like a piece of meat.
Why would a person against males being drafted who is also against females being drafted not be considered as favouring equality? Also the armed forces are notorious for ignoring and covering up sexual harrasment, and evidently the armed forces is a male dominated environment developed by males for males. What is equal about forcing women to join an environment that only caters for males?

As for treating themselves like a piece of meat, many men treat themselves exactly like that, so do these men not believe themselves equal to females, or is treating oneself as meat only a sign of not considering yourself (or not wanting to be) equal when females do it....mmm, have sex you are a slut, dont have sex you are fridgid...seems females are always in the wrong and the only consistent aspect of their wrongness appears to be...femaleness....so what is it exactly feminists are complaining about...?

i might be considered a feminist, in that i believe that women and men should be considered equal in all parts of public life. If people want to play dominant/passive roles in their personal life, then what do i care as long as they both agree to their own rules
I would most certainly consider you a feminist based on the bolded assertion...

Feminism is about supremacy, not equality.
No, feminism is about equity.

I hate femenists, hate 'em all
So you either are against or do not support equity, or you hate yourself...either way, I do not see how your hatred is constructive in any way shape or form, the same cannot be said of the numerous feminists I know working to improve all our lives.

our receptionist/secretary who is getting paid twice what she is worth for her skill level simply because my boss is a soft touch for hard luck cases
Your boss appears to be a-typical.

i agree that there are many extremists in the world and a few of them are on the side of feminism
And at least as many are rabid 'anti-feminists', but apparently at this time criticising them isnt trendy...

modern feminism is about extending equality to transgender women and freeing men from their social chains as well. There will never be true equality if men are not liberated as well.

second of all, women still earn less than men. Women still dont get paid for their domestic work, single female parents are among the poorest group of people in society.

Gender equality exists as long as both genders accept what is going on.

Some questions I have:
Are women working in strip clubs the ones being exploited or are the men ,who are the ones surrendering sums of money for a quick fix? Afterall, whose loss would it be if the female strippers quit? The female strippers can get other jobs. The men have to hope their wives are up to the task. Females exploiting males, I say.

Is it more fair to pay for both boys and girls sports equally or unequally due to the unequal number of participants and the boys' more willingness to do more physically demanding sports due to the hormones in their body and the fact that men are often programmed to be more agressive than women?

I am for equality. The women just have to make sure to stop once in a while so that men don't catch on and demand stuff too. Nothing more disturbing than a man complaining about women getting more than him, except some of those manly femenists. I mean, are they sure they're female? :eek: girlish-looking women are okay, but women who you're not sure if they're women.

Gender equality exists as long as both genders accept what is going on.

Some questions I have:
Are women working in strip clubs the ones being exploited or are the men ,who are the ones surrendering sums of money for a quick fix? Afterall, whose loss would it be if the female strippers quit? The female strippers can get other jobs. The men have to hope their wives are up to the task. Females exploiting males, I say.

Is it more fair to pay for both boys and girls sports equally or unequally due to the unequal number of participants and the boys' more willingness to do more physically demanding sports due to the hormones in their body and the fact that men are often programmed to be more agressive than women?

I am for equality. The women just have to make sure to stop once in a while so that men don't catch on and demand stuff too. Nothing more disturbing than a man complaining about women getting more than him, except some of those manly femenists. I mean, are they sure they're female? :eek: girlish-looking women are okay, but women who you're not sure if they're women.

I dont think its fair. I have a male sexual organ but I dont want to do physical demanding task and I am not and dont want to be aggressive ever. I am not a big guy and I am sure there are females who are physically stronger than I. Why should I be stockperson instead of a cashier? Its totally unfair. I found that most people like to divide people based on their sexes rather than individually. Modern feminism addresses these types of issues.

Gender equality exists as long as both genders accept what is going on.

Some questions I have:
Are women working in strip clubs the ones being exploited or are the men ,who are the ones surrendering sums of money for a quick fix? Afterall, whose loss would it be if the female strippers quit? The female strippers can get other jobs. The men have to hope their wives are up to the task. Females exploiting males, I say.

Is it more fair to pay for both boys and girls sports equally or unequally due to the unequal number of participants and the boys' more willingness to do more physically demanding sports due to the hormones in their body and the fact that men are often programmed to be more agressive than women?

I am for equality. The women just have to make sure to stop once in a while so that men don't catch on and demand stuff too. Nothing more disturbing than a man complaining about women getting more than him, except some of those manly femenists. I mean, are they sure they're female? :eek: girlish-looking women are okay, but women who you're not sure if they're women.


Most women who do strip-teases and stuff feel empowered to have the ability to draw attention in a place like that and know they are beautiful, but I still think alot of it is the money. If they don't like it they leave. It takes ALOT of confidence and self-esteem to get up their every day and do a pole-dance and all those sexual moves without feeling at least somewhat appreciated. Otherwise it wouldn't be erotic if some girl was like wet noodles and flopped around cause she didn't like it. Oh ya, the women got men in that business. Hook line and sinker, and its legal to.

Men usually can get what they want pretty easy cause they make the laws, but also they have been going crazy at trying to please women. Though if they continue to ask, studies will be done that shows women are getting the better side of it.

*some* classes of men are just as powerless , if not more, than some women. They are poor and they dont make the laws and some of them dont give a damn about pleasing women. Feminism must get out of this narrow worldview inorder to extend true equality to women and men.

-We circumcise males on a more than regular basis. What about them?

I fail to see how removing the foreskin is even remotely equivalent to cutting off the clitoris.

I would like to see a woman become president of the United States because it has never been done here and I am curious to see what differences, if any, there would be in how our country is run.

Do NOT vote for someone just because they have a pair of tits. We've already have enough problems with a president because a bunch of idiots got together and wanted someone ardently christian without considering whether he was even qualified for the job.

Remember, this country NEEDS someone like Sandra Day O'Conner who thoroughly understands the Constitution, OR a strong female leader who has likely served in the armed service before thus being able to trust her with Commander in Chief responsibilities.

Edit
We DO NOT need neither a Hillary, Rice, or Bush.

Long gone are chastity belts and the days where female infants were disposed of because they were considered "useless" or a "burden". We are no longer expected to birth twenty children to take care of the farm or labor in layers of restrictive clothing.

We can now earn as much if not more than our male counterparts and we can vote. Though it is still an issue of much debate, we can basically make our own choices regarding our bodies including abortion. We don't have to wear bras, though I highly recommend it for many women.

So what are we fighting with our men for?


First part: only in some countries.

Second part: We can earn as much but still we've been paid less for the same job. Also the glassroof exists. You may not believe in it, but there are number of studies that prove it exists.

If you've been paying attention, I live in the United States, too.
-We circumcise males on a more than regular basis. What about them?

-I make $10 an hour, my boyfriend makes $8. Can't go making generalizations like that.



The circumcition of males in US has nothing to do with the horrid mutilating of female genitals which take place in many countries.
You make more money than your boyfriend, someones mom makes big bugs. Well, you know what. You and someone's mother are just 2 women, not representing the whole gender. You can't say that women are paid equally because there are 2 women who are paid more than men. In general, women do earn less (and also for the same job) as men.

If ive been paying attention? Are you famous around here or something? How would i know where you are from? From the sounds of it, you are from Switzerland or Sweden or the Netherlands, where women actually are almost equal in pay.

Wishful thinking. It's just as bad in those countries.

A bit more about China. Let's say what CIA factbook has to say about it.

Sex ratio:
at birth: 1.12 male(s)/female
under 15 years: 1.13 male(s)/female
15-64 years: 1.06 male(s)/female
65 years and over: 0.91 male(s)/female
total population: 1.06 male(s)/female (2005 est.)

much more interesting stat

Infant mortality rate:
total: 24.18 deaths/1,000 live births
male: 21.21 deaths/1,000 live births
female: 27.5 deaths/1,000 live births (2005 est.)

While the national ratio is 117 to 100 in China, the imbalance in some provinces is much worse. The Guangdong and Hainan provinces, as well as the Guangxi Zhuang autonomous region, have more than 130 male births to 100 female births, according to China Daily.
BP NEWS

Before the one-child policy in 1982 the ratio was similar to the rest of the world. So it's worse than it used to be, not better.

Do women still really make less money than men in the same jobs? At my work, I had a girl working with me, doing essentially the same jobs (although she sewed, I didn't, this isn't a sexist thing, I was trained to sew, its just I have a tendency to break machines) and she made more money than me for some reason.

If you can't earn the same amount as a man doing the same job, I assume you have ample grounds for a lawsuit, if not, what goddamned country are you living in?

In Australia, you don't earn money based on whether you're a woman or a man, you earn money based on a basic industry award rate. I refuse to believe there are civilised countries where this doesn't happen. If someone who is doing the exact same job as you, with the same amount of experience, and you are getting paid less than them, you do not live in a civilised country, because that makes no goddamned sense.

Do women still really make less money than men in the same jobs? At my work, I had a girl working with me, doing essentially the same jobs (although she sewed, I didn't, this isn't a sexist thing, I was trained to sew, its just I have a tendency to break machines) and she made more money than me for some reason.

If you can't earn the same amount as a man doing the same job, I assume you have ample grounds for a lawsuit, if not, what goddamned country are you living in?

In Australia, you don't earn money based on whether you're a woman or a man, you earn money based on a basic industry award rate. I refuse to believe there are civilised countries where this doesn't happen. If someone who is doing the exact same job as you, with the same amount of experience, and you are getting paid less than them, you do not live in a civilised country, because that makes no goddamned sense.

Hopefully it's not common anymore. But an example how it can happen. I worked in a gas station/restaurant. Females got paid as restaurant workers and males as shop clerks (all doing exactly same job). It's not like the employer informed us about it. We just found it out one day (btw, the employer was female). And of course we became furious. :mad:
Of course it makes no goddamned sense. But it still happens.

Do women still really make less money than men in the same jobs? At my work, I had a girl working with me, doing essentially the same jobs (although she sewed, I didn't, this isn't a sexist thing, I was trained to sew, its just I have a tendency to break machines) and she made more money than me for some reason.
There you go, she sewed. That's why she made more money. What is your complaint?

It is a fact that women, on average, earn less money for the same job than men.

Note the main words there "on average". So of course there are going to be exceptions, cases where it's equal, or even where the woman earns more. It's an average.

Most women who do strip-teases and stuff feel empowered to have the ability to draw attention in a place like that and know they are beautiful, but I still think alot of it is the money. If they don't like it they leave. It takes ALOT of confidence and self-esteem to get up their every day and do a pole-dance and all those sexual moves without feeling at least somewhat appreciated. Otherwise it wouldn't be erotic if some girl was like wet noodles and flopped around cause she didn't like it. Oh ya, the women got men in that business. Hook line and sinker, and its legal to.

Men usually can get what they want pretty easy cause they make the laws, but also they have been going crazy at trying to please women. Though if they continue to ask, studies will be done that shows women are getting the better side of it.

Regarding women who strip tease, they might start working in clubs because they think it's fun and easy money, but the reality for these women is bleak. Most of them are treated as outcasts, if they find a descent man they have to lie to him about what they do for a living, and when they get too old to draw a crowd they have absolutely no work skills or experience. How would you like to be a fourty year old single mother with a blank resume?

I fail to see how removing the foreskin is even remotely equivalent to cutting off the clitoris.

I haven't been by my computer for the past 24 hours to respond to some interesting points, but I chose this one first. I can't see how the mutilation of infant body parts in either male or female sexes can be downplayed. Isn't it just as bad for both sexes? How can we ever achieve equality by making it seem like females' issues are more important? Isn't that like masculinism or something?

Equality happens when people see eye to eye.

Do NOT vote for someone just because they have a pair of tits. We've already have enough problems with a president because a bunch of idiots got together and wanted someone ardently christian without considering whether he was even qualified for the job.

Remember, this country NEEDS someone like Sandra Day O'Conner who thoroughly understands the Constitution, OR a strong female leader who has likely served in the armed service before thus being able to trust her with Commander in Chief responsibilities.

Edit
We DO NOT need neither a Hillary, Rice, or Bush.

I would never vote for somebody soley based on anatomy. Qualifications must be present certainly. I still hold my position on wishing to see a woman run for president and achieve that status. I'm sure there are many qualified women out there.

I'm a woman. I detest feminism. There will NEVER be gender, race, or any other type of equality among the world. I don't mind people being 'proud' about being a woman, but it just goes too far sometimes. "I'm proud I'm a feminist!" :rolleyes: That's like me saying I'm proud of being an inbred peice of white trash.

The circumcition of males in US has nothing to do with the horrid mutilating of female genitals which take place in many countries.
You make more money than your boyfriend, someones mom makes big bugs. Well, you know what. You and someone's mother are just 2 women, not representing the whole gender. You can't say that women are paid equally because there are 2 women who are paid more than men. In general, women do earn less (and also for the same job) as men.
I'll ignore the frightening grammar on this (my mom does not make big bugs, but it made me laugh... thank you!) Using myself and my mother as two examples of women who make more than men does not mean we are the only two success stories. There are plenty of women who I have observed in more successful positions than their male counterparts. I'm sure this is not the case worldwide or even for every woman in the United States.

Still, I have to sit back and look at how many successful women there are, women who wouldn't have been so successful even 20 years ago. On the whole, I sincerely believe we have made huge steps towards equality and many females have plain surpassed the euqality status to become bigger and better. At what point in time do we stop whining for men to make us equal and make ourselves better?

Isn't it just as bad for both sexes?
No. It's not. Male circumcision has health benefits attached to it. Female circumcision has no health benefits, and is extremely detrimental, as if prevents any feeling of pleasure through sexual intercourse.

If male circumcision removed the entire penis, then they would be comparable. But it doesn't, so you cannot compare them.

Actually doctors all around the world have come out and said that it doesn't. It's only done for uniformity now in most cases.
Source? I have never seen a doctor claim that.

Source? I have never seen a doctor claim that.

I was wrong on NO health benefits but here you go.

source 1 (http://www.fathermag.com/health/circ/)

Source 2 (http://www.jewishcircumcision.org/haaretz99.htm)

And there are many more.

*cool didn't delete this one like the last post lol*

Source 3 and by far the most informative. (http://www.cirp.org/library/general/)

The third link leads to a bunch of articles relating to the subject. You'll have to read the headlines and then open up each article.

Long gone are chastity belts and the days where female infants were disposed of because they were considered "useless" or a "burden". We are no longer expected to birth twenty children to take care of the farm or labor in layers of restrictive clothing.

I see that you are restricting your views/opinions to the westernized worlds. Women are raped in Africa because men believe that to rape a virgin is to become clean of HIV. Girl babies are slaughtered daily in rural China. Women in Arab countries are nothing more but baby machines and raisers.

In the future, do some research before spouting off your ignorance as fact.

We can now earn as much if not more than our male counterparts and we can vote.

HA! HAHAHAHAHA!! I am 24, female, married and I work in a highly competitive, highly male-dominated industry. I am a game designer for a division of a world-wide corporation. I can tell you first hand that this statement is pure and utter bullshit.

I have been working in the industry for 5 years and make less than my male counterparts. The entire industry, let alone my company, is gender-bias.

Also, go to Japan or South Korea some time. Women have yet to achieve even an ounce of the same equality as men in the work force in these countries.

Your arrogantly displayed ignorance does nothing but invoke my ire. Feel it.

So what are we fighting with our men for?

The issue of feminism is not about fighting men. That's one of the biggest misconceptions about feminism, one that has been born by the right-wing spin on the movement.

Feminism is about achieving equality for all women in the world, not just the "wholesome" white-bred western countries. We continue to fight for equality because, in the real world, men are oppressing women left and right.

While I was raised to believe that a man is not a man unless he is taking care of his family, I find that idea to be rather outdated. In my ideal world, at least one parent should be a home maker. I feel that our children would have a better advantage with at least one parent taking more time to raise and guide them in the home. Unfortunately, for many people that is economically unfeasible.

Again, you display your complete and utter lack of knowledge on the subject. Feminism is not about putting the man in the woman's place. Feminism is about providing the woman with the same options as the man. If a mother wishes to have a successful and prominant career (where she makes the same money as the male counterpart of her station), she should have that option available to her.

Yes, western civilizations have come a long way, but to think that we have achieved true and utter equality between the sexes is absurd. We still have a ways to go. Much of the world has yet to begin this progress.

I would like to see a woman become president of the United States because it has never been done here and I am curious to see what differences, if any, there would be in how our country is run.

This is a very stupid statement. I would love to see a woman president as well, but not because she has a set of hooters and a vagina. I would like to see a woman as president because women can be just as capable of leading a nation as men. I want to see a woman president because genitalia has absolutely nothing to do with your ability to lead a country. Period (no pun intended).

Also, I would like to see men be a little more understanding and appreciative of the birthing process. Comparing labor and giving birth to a kick in the balls is a bit of an understatement. However, I do not feel superior for being able to give birth. We most certainly do not impregnate ourselves. Kudos to men for contributing to that process.

This statement makes a lot of sense, actually. This is actually what feminism is about. It is about equality -- it takes two, not just one. We both act, in equal parts, to pro-create. Now, why can't we act, in equal parts, in every other way?

I guess what I'm getting at in this lengthy (I do apologize) thread, is what are feminists still riled up over?

Again, you think that feminism is a militant, pissed off lesbo movement. It is not. Yes, I am pissed off (this shit always pisses me off), but that doesn't mean the movement is.

Just because the "white-cultures" are more out of the stone-age than the rest of the world does not mean that we have it 100% right.

I see that you are restricting your views/opinions to the westernized worlds. Women are raped in Africa because men believe that to rape a virgin is to become clean of HIV. Girl babies are slaughtered daily in rural China. Women in Arab countries are nothing more but baby machines and raisers.

In the future, do some research before spouting off your ignorance as fact.

I was just about to say the same thing. There is plenty for feminists to oppose outside the first world (and inside it, as well, as there certainly are a few first world nations with a great deal of sexism still).

*SNIP*

Wow. Well, at least I'm only 99.99% ignorant. Everyone has a right to their opinions and I respect yours. Also, I never said I would vote for a woman just because she's a woman. My views are simply that. My views. Don't pop too many blood vessels over it.

I haven't been by my computer for the past 24 hours to respond to some interesting points, but I chose this one first. I can't see how the mutilation of infant body parts in either male or female sexes can be downplayed. Isn't it just as bad for both sexes? How can we ever achieve equality by making it seem like females' issues are more important? Isn't that like masculinism or something?

Equality happens when people see eye to eye.

Male circumcism is mutilation in the lightest possible definition of the term. It is done because the cultures it exists in view it as being in the best interests of the child concerned and most men who have it do not experience noticable changes in their lives and many don't even know what theyre missing (literally!).

Female circumcism involves cutting the clitoris away (along with skin surrounding the vagina) then in some cases sewing the vagina almost completely shut. The aim of it is to prevent any female pleasure in sex and to prevent the girl form having sex before she is married by removing sex drive, making it very painful to have sex and by shutting the vagina. In extreme cases the girls have to be cut open by their husbands so they can have sex.

There is no comparison between the two acts.

Female circumcism involves cutting the clitoris away (along with skin surrounding the vagina) then in some cases sewing the vagina almost completely shut. The aim of it is to prevent any female pleasure in sex and to prevent the girl form having sex before she is married by removing sex drive, making it very painful to have sex and by shutting the vagina. In extreme cases the girls have to be cut open by their husbands so they can have sex.
:eek: That is awful, disgusting and sad all at the same time. I wasn’t aware of what female circumcision entailed, and then I think about all those girls in the Sudan who were forcibly circumcised by the militias. Now I’m sad. :(