NationStates Jolt Archive

I have heard by many people that the reason that they don't believe in Christianity is that Christianity is full of hypocrites....and you know what, sometimes that is true. Christians are taught that Christ had an incredible amount of love for humanity (ALL humanity)...and yet His followers forget that we are called to be like Him....So I apologise for that....I apologise for any time that a Christian made you feel that you are not worthy of His grace...because us Christians are no more worthy than you are...in fact, as a believer, knowing that we are covered by the grace of God should make a Christian more humble and thankful...but it rarely does. Why?...because our own egos and self-importance get in the way. Every human being falls short of the grace of God....and yet everyone can have His grace....it's just about accepting Him into your heart and life and letting Him have His way with your heart. So I am sincerely sorry if you have ever felt judged as a non-believer. That is not what Christ taught His people. I'm sure that this post is making some Christians uncomfortable.....but let me ask those Christians....when was the last time that you got out of your comfort zone and related to those in your world that aren't considered moral people?....making friends with those people who are homeless, the prostitutes who sell their bodies for drugs, the neighbour that beats his wife, or even the unbeliever that just thinks that ALL Christians are judgemental hypocrites....It is so easy to judge others and to see what they are doing wrong...but how are you showing Jesus to the world? Anyway, my deepest apologies to all un-believers. It is my greatest prayer that you will encounter just ONE person that will show you exactly HOW MUCH Jesus loves the world by just loving you the same way. Please forgive me and God bless!! :)

Spaces, man...spaces.

Christianity is full of run-on sentences.

I've never been made to feel "unworthy" of anyone's love or mercy by a Christian. I happen to disbelieve for a large number of reasons, hypocrisies included.

However, you at least seem to be on the right track to repairing the relations between Christianity and a large number of people.

Spaces, man...spaces.

Just be thankful there werent any "begats" in there

Wow. That's all I'll say. Not to say that it had any impact on me.. but to the fact I've never seen so many run on sentences. Well at least in one paragraph.

Christians are taught that Christ had an incredible amount of love for humanity (ALL humanity)...
i had to read it three times before i realised you said incredible, i thought you said "inedible".

incredible? that doesn't make sence, cause in=not, and credible=truethful, but you're trying to say something pro-christian, aren't you?

I have heard by many people that the reason that they don't believe in Christianity is that Christianity is full of hypocrites....and you know what, sometimes that is true. Christians are taught that Christ had an incredible amount of love for humanity (ALL humanity)...and yet His followers forget that we are called to be like Him....So I apologise for that....I apologise for any time that a Christian made you feel that you are not worthy of His grace...because us Christians are no more worthy than you are...in fact, as a believer, knowing that we are covered by the grace of God should make a Christian more humble and thankful...but it rarely does. Why?...because our own egos and self-importance get in the way. Every human being falls short of the grace of God....and yet everyone can have His grace....it's just about accepting Him into your heart and life and letting Him have His way with your heart. So I am sincerely sorry if you have ever felt judged as a non-believer. That is not what Christ taught His people. I'm sure that this post is making some Christians uncomfortable.....but let me ask those Christians....when was the last time that you got out of your comfort zone and related to those in your world that aren't considered moral people?....making friends with those people who are homeless, the prostitutes who sell their bodies for drugs, the neighbour that beats his wife, or even the unbeliever that just thinks that ALL Christians are judgemental hypocrites....It is so easy to judge others and to see what they are doing wrong...but how are you showing Jesus to the world? Anyway, my deepest apologies to all un-believers. It is my greatest prayer that you will encounter just ONE person that will show you exactly HOW MUCH Jesus loves the world by just loving you the same way. Please forgive me and God bless!! :)

I appreciate your sentiments... but you really don't see it...

Think about it this way:

"I really hope that one day, you wise up and realise that you've wasted your life on a fairystory"...

See what I mean? Good sentiments... but you need to think it through a little more fully, or relinquish the chance to preach.

http://www.evilbible.com/

The Truth is out There.

Maybe people should look beyond grammer becaue that's not what's important here. I for one applaud his stance, and hope that there are more moderates like him out there to help salvage christian/rest-of-the-world relations.

I have heard by many people that the reason that they don't believe in Christianity is that Christianity is full of hypocrites....
That's roughly my reasoning, but I'd never say it that way. I persoally hate it how nice people can look down on people for not sharing their beliefs in such an insulting way. The fact that they feel earnestly sorry for unbelievers is what really ticks me off and makes me want to scream. I wouldn't consider this "hypocracy" though...
I'd never want to be like that.

Anyway, my deepest apologies to all un-believers. It is my greatest prayer that you will encounter just ONE person that will show you exactly HOW MUCH Jesus loves the world by just loving you the same way. Please forgive me and God bless!! :)Thanks. Those words mean a lot. :)

Grave_n_idle:

I don't agree....this isn't about preaching...this is about loving humanity as Christ loved humanity...if you never want to believe, then that is what you choose....it saddens me because it saddens God....but at least I know that I have done what I have been called to do....I won't judge you for you choices...even though I am judged daily for being a Christian....and if you are right and there is no God...then what harm have I done?....other than encouraging people to love one another....but, what if there is a God?...then what? What happens to all of those people who said that God was just a fairytale?

Seriously, I'm sure you're making some truly profound theological statements. But you HAVE to use proper sentences: we just can't understand what you're saying! Try full stop space instead of elision marks.

Maybe people should look beyond grammer becaue that's not what's important here. I for one applaud his stance, and hope that there are more moderates like him out there to help salvage christian/rest-of-the-world relations.


Moderates in religion are the foundation that extremism is built on.

Grave_n_idle:

<snip> then what? What happens to all of those people who said that God was just a fairytale?

They'll get a chance to kick his teeth in for the horrors he/she or it allowed.

Grave_n_idle:

I don't agree....this isn't about preaching...this is about loving humanity as Christ loved humanity...if you never want to believe, then that is what you choose....it saddens me because it saddens God....but at least I know that I have done what I have been called to do....I won't judge you for you choices...even though I am judged daily for being a Christian....and if you are right and there is no God...then what harm have I done?....other than encouraging people to love one another....but, what if there is a God?...then what? What happens to all of those people who said that God was just a fairytale?

You're doing it again, my friend... you really don't see it, do you?

You DARE to presume to speak for 'god'? "...it saddens me because it saddens God...". I have problems with such hubris...

You don't see what I was saying... you say "It is my greatest prayer that you will encounter just ONE person that will show you exactly HOW MUCH Jesus loves the world by just loving you the same way"... which is telling us that YOU have the path to salvation, and, therefore, know BETTER than any other belief system.

So - I phrased my little 'fairytale' snippet, but you still don't see it.

I also have a hard time with "...you never want to believe, then that is what you choose..." How do you have ANY IDEA what I believe? Or what I WANT TO BELIEVE? If you are the average age and demographic of NS posters, the chances are that I was a Christian before you were weaned...

Yupaenu:

Definition of incredible:

So remarkable as to elicit disbelief.

Jesus' loves was SO incredible, that it would seem hard to believe that someone could love humanity THAT much. In fact, He died on a cross for that love.

other words like incredible:
amazing, astonishing, astounding, fabulous, fantastic, fantastical, marvelous, miraculous, phenomenal, prodigious, stupendous, unbelievable, wonderful, wondrous.

Grave_n_idle:

I don't agree....this isn't about preaching...this is about loving humanity as Christ loved humanity...if you never want to believe, then that is what you choose....it saddens me because it saddens God....but at least I know that I have done what I have been called to do....I won't judge you for you choices...even though I am judged daily for being a Christian....and if you are right and there is no God...then what harm have I done?....other than encouraging people to love one another....but, what if there is a God?...then what? What happens to all of those people who said that God was just a fairytale?

Maybe you haven't done any harm personally - but what about Christianity in general? What about the Inquisitions and the Witch Hunts? What about the destruction of whatever native cultures Christians came across in their explorations? The people behind those tragic events were allegedly interested in saving souls, but they did a tremendous amount of harm! They are no better than the people who brought us 9/11 - and to think it was all because of a myth just makes it all the more tragic! Do you really not see this?

You're correct, Grave n idle, atheists do not choose not to believe… a] it's illogical, why on earth would they? and b] I used to be one, and it certainly wasn't some kind of rebellious choice.

Other than that, Woodsprites, you say pretty much what needs to be said. Good on you.

Maybe you haven't done any harm personally - but what about Christianity in general? What about the Inquisitions and the Witch Hunts? What about the destruction of whatever native cultures Christians came across in their explorations? The people behind those tragic events were allegedly interested in saving souls, but they did a tremendous amount of harm! They are no better than the people who brought us 9/11 - and to think it was all because of a myth just makes it all the more tragic! Do you really not see this?
Humans will do wrong, religion or no religion. The best belief can be a tool for scum… the concept of a fair and equal system begat Stalin and Mao. These inquisitors would have been the same regardless of their religion… Robespierre, anyone?

Grave_n_idle:

I love you.....despite how upset you want to get at me...or how closed you wish to keep your heart....it's interesting how you avoided my question...if there is no God, I have done no harm by believing in God....but what if there is a God and the "fairytale" is truth?....where does that leave those who thought it was all a "fairytale" and a lie?

I don't believe in god, well because Evolution makes more sense to me. Plus, all the religious types tend to be sheeple. Preecher stands up and says "Darwin was a lier and evolution is false, you all should activise against it." with no explanation of the theory, nor why it is wrong, This actully happend to me, the next night my mom and me are fighting. She pisses me off, I bring up destructive point agaisnt the bible, her response is "Yoour going to church more!" great....that's what I wan't, to be brainwashed.

I have heard by many people that the reason that they don't believe in Christianity is that Christianity is full of hypocrites....and you know what, sometimes that is true. Christians are taught that Christ had an incredible amount of love for humanity (ALL humanity)...and yet His followers forget that we are called to be like Him....So I apologise for that....I apologise for any time that a Christian made you feel that you are not worthy of His grace...because us Christians are no more worthy than you are...in fact, as a believer, knowing that we are covered by the grace of God should make a Christian more humble and thankful...but it rarely does. Why?...because our own egos and self-importance get in the way. Every human being falls short of the grace of God....and yet everyone can have His grace....it's just about accepting Him into your heart and life and letting Him have His way with your heart. So I am sincerely sorry if you have ever felt judged as a non-believer. That is not what Christ taught His people. I'm sure that this post is making some Christians uncomfortable.....but let me ask those Christians....when was the last time that you got out of your comfort zone and related to those in your world that aren't considered moral people?....making friends with those people who are homeless, the prostitutes who sell their bodies for drugs, the neighbour that beats his wife, or even the unbeliever that just thinks that ALL Christians are judgemental hypocrites....It is so easy to judge others and to see what they are doing wrong...but how are you showing Jesus to the world? Anyway, my deepest apologies to all un-believers. It is my greatest prayer that you will encounter just ONE person that will show you exactly HOW MUCH Jesus loves the world by just loving you the same way. Please forgive me and God bless!! :)

Wow! That must have been the most long and boring thing i've heard all day.
That'll even get an insomniac like me to sleep.

.....but let me ask those Christians....when was the last time that you got out of your comfort zone and related to those in your world that aren't considered moral people?....making friends with those people who are homeless, the prostitutes who sell their bodies for drugs, the neighbour that beats his wife, or even the unbeliever that just thinks that ALL Christians are judgemental hypocrites....It is so easy to judge others and to see what they are doing wrong...but how are you showing Jesus to the world? Anyway, my deepest apologies to all un-believers. It is my greatest prayer that you will encounter just ONE person that will show you exactly HOW MUCH Jesus loves the world by just loving you the same way. Please forgive me and God bless!! :)

We don't have to go out of our comfort zones to find immoral people. I show Jesus to the world by trying to be like him. It is very easy for Christians to become hypocritical, but even if Christ's followers are being hypocritical, that doesn't mean christianity is wrong. If you have misunderstandings about people in the Bible and think that they are hypocrits, please explain to me what they are and I will clarify. I admire that you are trying to help these people and be like Jesus. Please continue to be more like Christ, and continue to help people in need. We need more people like you in this world! :)

where does that leave those who thought it was all a "fairytale" and a lie?

I believe the word you want is "screwed".... if that is the case, my dad says it best, "Atleast I'm in good company in hell" to me heaven would be a good place to not be, because, if what you preach is true, the only people up there will be the holier-than-thou annoying ass hole that I have to put up with down here.

Grave_n_idle:

I love you.....despite how upset you want to get at me...or how closed you wish to keep your heart....it's interesting how you avoided my question...if there is no God, I have done no harm by believing in God....but what if there is a God and the "fairytale" is truth?....where does that leave those who thought it was all a "fairytale" and a lie?
A little surprised, but ultimately no worse for wear. If God is the sort who would condemn unbelievers to suffering, then I would take that suffering along with them even though I think Jesus is a phenomenal role model and teacher regardless of the truth of his identity.

http://www.evilbible.com/

The Truth is out There.

Yeah, that's true but one thing I'm not happy about.
Osama Bin Laden like a boy scout, no way.
Boy Scouts are well more frightening!
Especially after they've had a bucket of E Numbers.
Trust me, I'm a PL.

Humans will do wrong, religion or no religion. The best belief can be a tool for scum… the concept of a fair and equal system begat Stalin and Mao. These inquisitors would have been the same regardless of their religion… Robespierre, anyone?

Funny you should mention Robespierre - who decreed worship of a supreme being because he feared that without belief in some omnipotent being like the Judeo-Christian god, morals would collapse, and then so would the Republic. This isn't really any different than what tyrants have done throughout history, and are still trying to do today (the American Pledge of Allegiance, anyone?)!

I don't believe in god, well because Evolution makes more sense to me. Plus, all the religious types tend to be sheeple. Preecher stands up and says "Darwin was a lier and evolution is false, you all should activise against it." with no explanation of the theory, nor why it is wrong, This actully happend to me, the next night my mom and me are fighting. She pisses me off, I bring up destructive point agaisnt the bible, her response is "Yoour going to church more!" great....that's what I wan't, to be brainwashed.

Look, both Christianity and Evolution can be true. I look at it as before God sent us to Earth, the earth was kind of a "testing zone" and he was experimenting. And by the way, preachers can make mistakes, don't get all riled up about it. I firmly believe that all confusion about the Bible comes from imperfect translations of the Bible, and people who do not fully understand it. If you ask God to help u understand the doctrines in the Bible, he will help you, if you ask in the name of Jesus Christ, with faith and with pure intent. I know that to be true, because I know God answers prayers, because he has answered prayers that I have done. And if you pray to God, often the answer comes more in a feeling. And sometimes it's a no, in which you will most likely feel confused. I know this.

Anyone read the Bible Codes?
That's supposed to be a real page turner.
It says that the bible is a prophecy of what Al-Qa'eda will do.
One sentence is an anagram that London will be nuclear bombed.
Sounds intriguing.

We don't have to go out of our comfort zones to find immoral people. I show Jesus to the world by trying to be like him. It is very easy for Christians to become hypocritical, but even if Christ's followers are being hypocritical, that doesn't mean christianity is wrong. If you have misunderstandings about people in the Bible and think that they are hypocrits, please explain to me what they are and I will clarify. I admire that you are trying to help these people and be like Jesus. Please continue to be more like Christ, and continue to help people in need. We need more people like you in this world!

Otay, here's one, if adam and eve had Kain and Able (Both males) where did the rest of humanity come from.

Which is it? An Eye for an Eye, or turn the other cheek.

and finally, why did king james take out 20 something books from the bible? since when does he have the authority to override god? how do you know he didn't alter the books he left into what HE wannted people to believe?

Is your world falling apart yet?

Grave_n_idle:

I love you.....despite how upset you want to get at me...or how closed you wish to keep your heart....it's interesting how you avoided my question...if there is no God, I have done no harm by believing in God....but what if there is a God and the "fairytale" is truth?....where does that leave those who thought it was all a "fairytale" and a lie?

I didn't realise I was 'upset at you'?

You seem to think you know a lot more about individuals than you have any reasonable capacity to, my friend.

I didn't avoid your quaestion - your question missed the point of my opening statment, which I have since explained. I have nothing against persons of faith, and I encourage them to practise as they see fit - but you are unaware, perhaps, of just how patronising and condescending (sanctimonious, even) you were being... hence the 'fairytale' comment.

Although, apparently, it was utterly lost on you...

What do you mean about my 'closed heart'?

Going to your last question (the Pascal Wager-type thing). You say "what if there is a god?" - but you MEAN "what if there is MY god?"... because if it isn't the one you've been bending and scraping to, your just as shot as the other poor sinners, right?

I'm all for the love-thy-neighbour thing. I'm all for peace and truth and cookies, and all the other good stuff. But don't presume that you know any BETTER than anyone else. You may BELIEVE something some others do not believe... but it IS just belief - unless you have something to back it up.

Pterodonia:

Judging all Christians on some religious agenda is unfair....if you have ever read any of Jesus' teachings, you would know that His teachings are not the teachings that led to the Inquisitions and the Witch Hunts...those things happened because of a selfish agenda by humans, not God....people are sinful...they are proud and have their own agendas....there are people who have taken the Bible and twisted it to their agenda...that is the whole point of my post...Christians tend to get wrapped up in dogma and doctrine...all the while they miss the whole point of what Jesus was all about....He hung out with the down-trodden, the tax collectors, the lepers, the prostitutes....and tended to come down on the religious leaders of that day who thought that they had it all figured out...please, don't judge Christianity based on history....look at what it really teaches by going directly to the Bible, then decide what you think about it.

I have heard by many people that the reason that they don't believe in Christianity is that Christianity is full of hypocrites....and you know what, sometimes that is true. Christians are taught that Christ had an incredible amount of love for humanity (ALL humanity)...and yet His followers forget that we are called to be like Him....So I apologise for that....I apologise for any time that a Christian made you feel that you are not worthy of His grace...because us Christians are no more worthy than you are...in fact, as a believer, knowing that we are covered by the grace of God should make a Christian more humble and thankful...but it rarely does. Why?...because our own egos and self-importance get in the way. Every human being falls short of the grace of God....and yet everyone can have His grace....it's just about accepting Him into your heart and life and letting Him have His way with your heart. So I am sincerely sorry if you have ever felt judged as a non-believer. That is not what Christ taught His people. I'm sure that this post is making some Christians uncomfortable.....but let me ask those Christians....when was the last time that you got out of your comfort zone and related to those in your world that aren't considered moral people?....making friends with those people who are homeless, the prostitutes who sell their bodies for drugs, the neighbour that beats his wife, or even the unbeliever that just thinks that ALL Christians are judgemental hypocrites....It is so easy to judge others and to see what they are doing wrong...but how are you showing Jesus to the world? Anyway, my deepest apologies to all un-believers. It is my greatest prayer that you will encounter just ONE person that will show you exactly HOW MUCH Jesus loves the world by just loving you the same way. Please forgive me and God bless!! :)

I appreciate it! Once a christian called me a dirty Pagan :( ! You have listed alot of reasons that annoy non-christians, and i thank you for that.

Moderates in religion are the foundation that extremism is built on.I fail to see the wisdom in that statement.

You're doing it again, my friend... you really don't see it, do you?

You DARE to presume to speak for 'god'? "...it saddens me because it saddens God...". I have problems with such hubris...

You don't see what I was saying... you say "It is my greatest prayer that you will encounter just ONE person that will show you exactly HOW MUCH Jesus loves the world by just loving you the same way"... which is telling us that YOU have the path to salvation, and, therefore, know BETTER than any other belief system.

So - I phrased my little 'fairytale' snippet, but you still don't see it.

I also have a hard time with "...you never want to believe, then that is what you choose..." How do you have ANY IDEA what I believe? Or what I WANT TO BELIEVE? If you are the average age and demographic of NS posters, the chances are that I was a Christian before you were weaned...

What are u talking about???? How does what he said in ANY way say that he knows better than any other belief system, or that he has the path to salvation? By that way, by saying what you did, you have stated that someone who knows the path to salvation knows better than any other belief system, meaning that God knows better than any belief system, which is a silly thing to say because in saying that you are saying that no belief system is led by Jesus Christ,(because a church led by Christ would have his knowledge), and saying that no belief system is led by Jesus Christ is denying what Paul has said. Have you read the new testiment? From what u have said, u don't seem to understand it.

Grave_n_idle:

I don't believe that I am any better than you....I never have...you are smart and challenge me...I like that....but I can still disagree with you....and you don't like that too much...if you wish to disagree with me, so be it....but please answer my question....you keep dodging it....by trying to reword it...and analyzing it to death...just answer....what will happen to those who are un-believers in Christianity, if it turns out that it is all true and not a "fairytale"?

I had to read that in three different positions in order to capture what the hell that said.

Otay, here's one, if adam and eve had Kain and Able (Both males) where did the rest of humanity come from.

Which is it? An Eye for an Eye, or turn the other cheek.

and finally, why did king james take out 20 something books from the bible? since when does he have the authority to override god? how do you know he didn't alter the books he left into what HE wannted people to believe?

Is your world falling apart yet?

No my world is not falling apart. Adam and Eve had many children anthere was incest to propigate the species. Multiple and painful child births were part of Eve and every womens curse since because of original sin.

The full quote is "an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth vengence is mine sayeth the LORD.

King James did not take out any books he only called into question the duetrocannicals by calling them apocryphal!

Is your world falling apart?

Pterodonia:

Judging all Christians on some religious agenda is unfair....if you have ever read any of Jesus' teachings, you would know that His teachings are not the teachings that led to the Inquisitions and the Witch Hunts...

Which of Jesus's teachings are you referring to? Would any of the following be included?

Matthew 10:34-36 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Luke 12:49-53 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Otay, here's one, if adam and eve had Kain and Able (Both males) where did the rest of humanity come from.

Which is it? An Eye for an Eye, or turn the other cheek.

and finally, why did king james take out 20 something books from the bible? since when does he have the authority to override god? how do you know he didn't alter the books he left into what HE wannted people to believe?

Is your world falling apart yet?

You diddn't read Genesis recently did u? After Adam begat Kain and Abel, he begat Seth, and that he begat Enos. It does not say that Adam begat another girl that Seth married in order to begat Enos, but obviously did, or else it was done by a miracle from God, as it did later on. So, assuming you believe in miracles, and/or assuming you believe that they might have left out that detail of who he may have married, it is still possible. And you have no idea why King James took out the 20 books or so from the Bible, but it seems to be a mistake on his part, but you have no idea why, and it could be any reason, it could even be that he was not allowed to. Don't assume things like that.

Otay, here's one, if adam and eve had Kain and Able (Both males) where did the rest of humanity come from.
Heh... Adam and Eve is a parable.

Never saw that coming, huh? >_>

Firstly, the order of Genesis adequately portrays, in layman's terms, the Big Bang, Formation of the earth from space debris, settlement of water, growth of life in water, transcension to land and sky and finally humanity. At this time, man is no different from animal; he shares the same limitations of conscious thought, though may have the capability to use tools.

Secondly, Eden is symbolic of a spiritual state wherein Man and Nature are one. With no idea of self about him, he can coexist with it as a part of it. However, there exists within nature the possibility of Man developing an understanding of Right and Wrong that arises through simple evolution, which is the tree from which God forbade Adam to eat. Once, through guidance by one of God's subordinates, Man ate from this tree, he developed a sense of self that separated him from nature. God did not Throw man from Eden; through the very act of developing self-consciousness, Man had, however unintentionally or unfairly, left it himself, taking with him those with whom he could procreate.

The firey swords and angels? Man cannot now return to Eden. We are stuck with our sense of self and are left in the desert outside.

Eden is not a literal account of Creation. It is, however, a Poetic account of both Creation and man's discovery of consciousness.

Which is it? An Eye for an Eye, or turn the other cheek.
Eye for an Eye is Jewish. Turn the other Cheek is Christian.

and finally, why did king james take out 20 something books from the bible? since when does he have the authority to override god? how do you know he didn't alter the books he left into what HE wannted people to believe?

Is your world falling apart yet?
Pfft. Like books could chain down God anyway. The Bible isn't God, you know; it's merely a starting point as to some idea as to where to search. Each person finds him in their own way, and the book is just one (though a good one for beginners, it must be said).

...what will happen to those who are un-believers in Christianity, if it turns out that it is all true and not a "fairytale"?

Then the Universe just isn't right! By the way, am I stuck with the heaven or hell dilemma, or can I just opt for total destruction?

Grave_n_idle:

I don't believe that I am any better than you....I never have...you are smart and challenge me...I like that....but I can still disagree with you....and you don't like that too much...if you wish to disagree with me, so be it....but please answer my question....you keep dodging it....by trying to reword it...and analyzing it to death...just answer....what will happen to those who are un-believers in Christianity, if it turns out that it is all true and not a "fairytale"?
I do hate quoting myself, but
A little surprised, but ultimately no worse for wear. If God is the sort who would condemn unbelievers to suffering, then I would take that suffering along with them even though I think Jesus is a phenomenal role model and teacher regardless of the truth of his identity.

What it if it is all true? Well, what if Islam is true, what happens to all those Christian believers? Regardless of what may or not be true, my own personal truth is that I could never believe and/or worship a God who would condemn billions of souls to eternal torment for having a sincere belief in another system of worship.

I didn't realise I was 'upset at you'?

You seem to think you know a lot more about individuals than you have any reasonable capacity to, my friend.

I didn't avoid your quaestion - your question missed the point of my opening statment, which I have since explained. I have nothing against persons of faith, and I encourage them to practise as they see fit - but you are unaware, perhaps, of just how patronising and condescending (sanctimonious, even) you were being... hence the 'fairytale' comment.

Although, apparently, it was utterly lost on you...

What do you mean about my 'closed heart'?

Going to your last question (the Pascal Wager-type thing). You say "what if there is a god?" - but you MEAN "what if there is MY god?"... because if it isn't the one you've been bending and scraping to, your just as shot as the other poor sinners, right?

I'm all for the love-thy-neighbour thing. I'm all for peace and truth and cookies, and all the other good stuff. But don't presume that you know any BETTER than anyone else. You may BELIEVE something some others do not believe... but it IS just belief - unless you have something to back it up.


You don't understand. NOTHING is just a belief, unless it is untrue. Just because you do not have evidence of something, does not mean that it is untrue. You are classifying it as "just a belief" yet for all you know, everything he said could be true. He may know better than you, and he may have something to back it up. It's just that it may not be enough to be considered "evidence" which seeems to me to be relative. "Evidence" is just a way of definining what is believable. One person may deny that something is true even if it is "provable". Don't ever judge someone for thinking they know better than you, because maybe what they believe is true!

Heh... Adam and Eve is a parable.

Never saw that coming, huh? >_>

Firstly, the order of Genesis adequately portrays, in layman's terms, the Big Bang, Formation of the earth from space debris, settlement of water, growth of life in water, transcension to land and sky and finally humanity. At this time, man is no different from animal; he shares the same limitations of conscious thought, though may have the capability to use tools.

Secondly, Eden is symbolic of a spiritual state wherein Man and Nature are one. With no idea of self about him, he can coexist with it as a part of it. However, there exists within nature the possibility of Man developing an understanding of Right and Wrong that arises through simple evolution, which is the tree from which God forbade Adam to eat. Once, through guidance by one of God's subordinates, Man ate from this tree, he developed a sense of self that separated him from nature. God did not Throw man from Eden; through the very act of developing self-consciousness, Man had, however unintentionally or unfairly, left it himself, taking with him those with whom he could procreate.

The firey swords and angels? Man cannot now return to Eden. We are stuck with our sense of self and are left in the desert outside.

Eden is not a literal account of Creation. It is, however, a Poetic account of both Creation and man's discovery of consciousness.
That is basically my interpretation of Genesis. Now if all Christians thought like that, we wouldn't have all this Creationism nonsense... :(

What it if it is all true? Well, what if Islam is true, what happens to all those Christian believers? Regardless of what may or not be true, my own personal truth is that I could never believe and/or worship a God who would condemn billions of souls to eternal torment for having a sincere belief in another system of worship.You'll find Baha'i interesting then :D

No my world is not falling apart. Adam and Eve had many children anthere was incest to propigate the species. Multiple and painful child births were part of Eve and every womens curse since because of original sin.

The full quote is "an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth vengence is mine sayeth the LORD.

King James did not take out any books he only called into question the duetrocannicals by calling them apocryphal!

Is your world falling apart?

ooo, this is gonna be fun. if there was incest to propigate, it couldn't have worked, the population would've gradully fell.

you win on the eye for an eye, I just got my mind wrapped all the way around it.

If king james didn't take out the books.... where are they? their not here.

also, why would god give us free will, and then drop fire on soddom&gommora for sinning? That like handing your sybling a toy and then beating the crap out of him for taking it.

ooo, this is gonna be fun. if there was incest to propigate, it couldn't have worked, the population would've gradully fell.

you win on the eye for an eye, I just got my mind wrapped all the way around it.

If king james didn't take out the books.... where are they? their not here.

also, why would god give us free will, and then drop fire on soddom&gommora for sinning? That like handing your sybling a toy and then beating the crap out of him for taking it.

What books are talking about?

Why do people think that God has an obligation to make this world safe and sweet for all? People and their choices can and do make this world what it is. We have no one to blame but ourselves. Responsibility is a scary word.

Forgive, I didn't finish so this is more or less off the hip-

These rants always seem to be artificially binary. Christian/atheist. If my objection was just with christianity I would have found another religion. It's religion in general-it's just the christians that set up flat bed trucks with a band on them in my court on my only Saturday off. The Hindus and Zarastians and etc. tend to leave me alone.

I have heard by many people that the reason that they don't believe in Christianity is that Christianity is full of hypocrites....and you know what, sometimes that is true. Christians are taught that Christ had an incredible amount of love for humanity (ALL humanity)...and yet His followers forget that we are called to be like Him....So I apologise for that....I apologise for any time that a Christian made you feel that you are not worthy of His grace...because us Christians are no more worthy than you are...in fact, as a believer, knowing that we are covered by the grace of God should make a Christian more humble and thankful...but it rarely does. Why?...because our own egos and self-importance get in the way. Every human being falls short of the grace of God....and yet everyone can have His grace....it's just about accepting Him into your heart and life and letting Him have His way with your heart. So I am sincerely sorry if you have ever felt judged as a non-believer. That is not what Christ taught His people. I'm sure that this post is making some Christians uncomfortable.....but let me ask those Christians....when was the last time that you got out of your comfort zone and related to those in your world that aren't considered moral people?....making friends with those people who are homeless, the prostitutes who sell their bodies for drugs, the neighbour that beats his wife, or even the unbeliever that just thinks that ALL Christians are judgemental hypocrites....It is so easy to judge others and to see what they are doing wrong...but how are you showing Jesus to the world? Anyway, my deepest apologies to all un-believers. It is my greatest prayer that you will encounter just ONE person that will show you exactly HOW MUCH Jesus loves the world by just loving you the same way. Please forgive me and God bless!! :)

I am an atheist, a secular humanist, to be more precise. However, I have read the bible twice. There's a great many inconsistencies and horrible acts done within. At the same time, some teachings in the bible are rather valuable life's lessons for functioning in society. Syntactically correct or not, this was a very Christian thing to say, in a purer scope of interpretation.
Each person is different; ergo, each Christian is different. No one can rightly hold the wrong-doings of another Christian against you.


They'll get a chance to kick his teeth in for the horrors he/she or it allowed.

This; however, is also very Christian, in a not-quite-so pure scope of interpretation.

The bible has been edited several times by the current bureaucracy in power, in various time periods. Numerous books have supposedly been left out, the whole Mary Magdelene as main apostle issue for example.

The bible has been edited several times by the current bureaucracy in power, in various time periods. Numerous books have supposedly been left out, the whole Mary Magdelene as main apostle issue for example.That, my dear friend, is also a "belief". I don't see how believing that is so much different from believing in a God...

Pterodonia:

Yes, those passages that you have referred to are some that are greatly misused and can be twisted out of the original context...the message of the Gospel is hard to hear and hard to share....and yes, it has and will divide households...and Christians are called to choose God over their earthly bonds...I know people who have families that are divided because of someone becoming Christian.......and anyone who has used those passages to justify religious war and slaughter has mis-read them......

Matthew 10:34-36 At first glance, this sounds like a contradiction of Isaiah 9:6, Luke 2:14 and John 14:27. It is true that Christ came to earth to bring peace....peace between the beleiver and God and peace among men. Yet the inevitable result of Christ's coming is conflict...between Christ and the anti-christ, between light and darkness, between Christ's children and the devil's children. This conflict can even occur between members of the same family.

Matthew 23:9 The meaning of that verse is, 'no earthly father must come before your heavenly father'....This is shown in Matthew 10:37, when He said, "He who loves 'father' or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me." If you back up to Matthew 23:1, Jesus was actually addressing the 'crowds and His disciples'. It is clear He spoke to two groups. If you jump to verse 8, where he said, "As for you, do not be called 'Rabbi' (Rabbi's are teachers, or the learned in Jewish law and the crowds mentioned in verse 1 certainly are not teachers, so He was addressing the disciples). You have but one teacher, and you are all brothers." (He called His disciples His "brothers" in many other Bible verses).

Luke 12:49-53 You'd think the Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6) would bring peace.
But that comes later. We know that the Messiah must come first to deal with sins, and then later for judgment and a reign of peace in the New Heavens and New Earth where righteousness dwell. You are blessed when your whole household are believers. But Jesus understands if that is not the case. He describes the division in a typical household of five: father, mother, daughter, son, son's wife.

Luke 14:26 is a vivid hyperbole, meaning that one must love Jesus even more than their immediate family in order to be a disciple of Jesus.

The bible has been edited several times by the current bureaucracy in power, in various time periods. Numerous books have supposedly been left out, the whole Mary Magdelene as main apostle issue for example.


I demand proof of this accusation. The books of which you speak were not considered inspired by Christians. These books were written by Gnostics who were not really christian, sort of a mix between buddhist , hindu, and christian thought.

I never said I was against beliefs or that they were foolish, only stated a particular belief that was repulsive to me. I am not going to get involved in silly word games/arguments, okay maybe I would.

I demand proof of this accusation. The books of which you speak were not considered inspired by Christians. These books were written by Gnostics who were not really christian, sort of a mix between buddhist , hindu, and christian thought.
What makes you think that Buddhist and Hindu viewpoints are any less accurately representative of Jesus than Christian ones are? In fact, it could very easily be argued that the true net goal of Jesus's teachings is something that is closer to Nirvana than a physical Kingdom.

What books are talking about?
Epistle of Barnabas, the First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, the Second Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, the The letter of the Smyrnaeans or the Martyrdom of Polycarp, the The Shepherd of Hermas, the The Book of Enoch, the Gospel of Thomas (140-170 AD), the The Psalms of Solomon, the The Odes of Solomon, the The Testaments of the twelve Patriarchs, the Second Baruch, the Third Baruch, the The Books of Adam and Eve.

Epistle of Barnabas, the First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, the Second Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, the The letter of the Smyrnaeans or the Martyrdom of Polycarp, the The Shepherd of Hermas, the The Book of Enoch, the Gospel of Thomas (140-170 AD), the The Psalms of Solomon, the The Odes of Solomon, the The Testaments of the twelve Patriarchs, the Second Baruch, the Third Baruch, the The Books of Adam and Eve.
Some of those would be plausible, but I pegged the fictional nature of such books at Adam and Eve. Either you're making those up or you've been duped, boyo; Adam and Eve almost certainly did not have the technological capability to write, regardless of whether they were actual people or simply the first group of self-conscious humans.

I demand proof of this accusation. The books of which you speak were not considered inspired by Christians. These books were written by Gnostics who were not really christian, sort of a mix between buddhist , hindu, and christian thought.
Of course the people who "edited" the bible would say these were not inspired, do you really think they would say "we took these out because they do not conform to our view of christianity even though they were written by christian founders"? Take off the blinders.

We Jews have learned that people dont respect you when you talk in run-on sentences. :rolleyes:

We all speak in run on sentences. We just try not to write them.

Twidgets:

Of coure the Bible is full of awful things...Humans can be horrible to one another...nothing has changed since then....the point of the Bible isn't that everyone lived in harmony (because they didn't)...but more God showing us how to live our lives through the history of those who have come before us...there are many examples of what NOT TO BE in the Bible....and because the Bible is written this way, it teaches us about consequences and WHY God wants us to live with only Him in our hearts...David (the boy who slayed Goliath and became king) was not a perfect person by any stretch of the imagination, but he was decribed by God as a man after God's own heart.

Epistle of Barnabas, the First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, the Second Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, the The letter of the Smyrnaeans or the Martyrdom of Polycarp, the The Shepherd of Hermas, the The Book of Enoch, the Gospel of Thomas (140-170 AD), the The Psalms of Solomon, the The Odes of Solomon, the The Testaments of the twelve Patriarchs, the Second Baruch, the Third Baruch, the The Books of Adam and Eve.


First of all none of these were ever included in the Cannon of the New Testement. Clement,polycarp,shepperd of hermas, all are part of what Catholics call Traditon we derive some of our teaching from these, but only in how the expound upon the inspired books of the bible.

Did you you mean song of Solomon? it is in the Catholic bible. Catholics hold many ancient writings in high regard but not on same level as inspired scripture.

I believe the Gospel of thomas may have been Gnostic.

Twidgets:

Of coure the Bible is full of awful things...Humans can be horrible to one another...nothing has changed since then....the point of the Bible isn't that everyone lived in harmony (because they didn't)...but more God showing us how to live our lives through the history of those who have come before us...there are many examples of what NOT TO BE in the Bible....and because the Bible is written this way, it teaches us about consequences and WHY God wants us to live with only Him in our hearts...David (the boy who slayed Goliath and became king) was not a perfect person by any stretch of the imagination, but he was decribed by God as a man after God's own heart.

Beautifully said! Thankyou! At least someone on this site understands!

Of course the people who "edited" the bible would say these were not inspired, do you really think they would say "we took these out because they do not conform to our view of christianity even though they were written by christian founders"? Take off the blinders.

If you just want to argue I wont waste my time. I just want to know if you have any historic eviddence to back you up besides dan brown & the da vinci code.

Thomas very well could have been gnostic, due to his late arrival on thne scene, so to speak. And I agree that the adam and eve book could be fictional, as this was a copy-paste from a apostalic extremeists site.

Christian:
To all you christians out there: Please remember that Jesus through action and words taught to love thy neighbour as thyself, even if you don't agree with him. Let us christians all try to live our lives like Jesus, and respect rather than condemn.

Non-Christians:
How can you say that? The old testament is full of inconsistencies and cruelty, which means you must be a hypocrite for denouncing violence and intolerance! How dare you try to push your hypocritical religious dogma of peace and love on me?!



I'm an atheist, and I think religious people who practice their religion through love and respect are great, and deserve no less in return. Though if they want to argue, I'll argue.



Anyway, the semantic meaning is identical with "unbelievable" (in = un, credible = believable). I know it's been mentioned, but people who guess at the semantics behind words without even bothering to check a dictionary, and then go on to criticize someone over it, really rattle my cage.

Matthew 10:34-36 At first glance, this sounds like a contradiction of Isaiah 9:6, Luke 2:14 and John 14:27. It is true that Christ came to earth to bring peace....peace between the beleiver and God and peace among men. Yet the inevitable result of Christ's coming is conflict...between Christ and the anti-christ, between light and darkness, between Christ's children and the devil's children. This conflict can even occur between members of the same family.

And yet he stated that his mission on earth was to cause this conflict - to set it in motion. In Luke's version, he even indicated that he was anxious to get started on it. You talk about Christ and anti-christ, light and darkness - I'd say these were just two sides of the same coin.

Matthew 23:9 The meaning of that verse is, 'no earthly father must come before your heavenly father'....This is shown in Matthew 10:37, when He said, "He who loves 'father' or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me." If you back up to Matthew 23:1, Jesus was actually addressing the 'crowds and His disciples'. It is clear He spoke to two groups. If you jump to verse 8, where he said, "As for you, do not be called 'Rabbi' (Rabbi's are teachers, or the learned in Jewish law and the crowds mentioned in verse 1 certainly are not teachers, so He was addressing the disciples). You have but one teacher, and you are all brothers." (He called His disciples His "brothers" in many other Bible verses).

You mean like when he publicly rejected his own family and replaced them with his fellow cult members?

Matthew 12:46-50 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Luke 14:26 is a vivid hyperbole, meaning that one must love Jesus even more than their immediate family in order to be a disciple of Jesus.

His tendencies toward exaggeration aside, this divide and conquer strategy is the same one used by every other cult leader. Jesus is obviously no different.

What makes you think that Buddhist and Hindu viewpoints are any less accurately representative of Jesus than Christian ones are? In fact, it could very easily be argued that the true net goal of Jesus's teachings is something that is closer to Nirvana than a physical Kingdom.


NO because Christ believed in the Living God not nothingness.

Pterodonia:

And if that is what you wish to believe, so be it....I'm not here to argue endlessly because that won't accomplish a thing....I'm just here to spread the love of Jesus as I am called to do..and that is just what I'm going to do!

NO because Christ believed in the Living God not nothingness.
I didn't say it was Nirvana. I said it was more like Nirvana than what you call Heaven; a plane wherein we adopt another form and continue to live much as we have now.

What Jesus preached was not mere transcension. Rather, what he preached was a world where humanity would live with empathy for each other without expectation of reward - even on a heavenly level - and within which they could live and work with God as their teacher, father and friend. Didn't you ever wonder about the vagueness of his Kingdom of Heaven speeches? About how they could be twisted to suit more or less any interpretation? That's why the Disciples were so shocked at the crucifixion; what he had said led them to believe that the Kingdom was coming to them just as much as it leads you to believe that you are going to it.

Jesus wanted us to be with God Even while we live in this world. The Kingdom is not a physical nor spiritual place; it is harmonious coexistence with both him and our world that is greater than a simple change in location.

NO because Christ believed in the Living God not nothingness.

I think that you may be a wee bit narrow minded there. Did you happen to meet Christ? You don't really know what he believed in. You know what King James and the governments before and after believed in.

I didn't say it was Nirvana. I said it was more like Nirvana than what you call Heaven; a plane wherein we adopt another form and continue to live much as we have now.

What Jesus preached was not mere transcension. Rather, what he preached was a world where humanity would live with empathy for each other without expectation of reward - even on a heavenly level - and within which they could live and work with God as their teacher, father and friend. Didn't you ever wonder about the vagueness of his Kingdom of Heaven speeches? About how they could be twisted to suit more or less any interpretation? That's why the Disciples were so shocked at the crucifixion; what he had said led them to believe that the Kingdom was coming to them just as much as it leads you to believe that you are going to it.

Jesus wanted us to be with God Even while we live in this world. The Kingdom is not a physical nor spiritual place; it is harmonious coexistence with both him and our world that is greater than a simple change in location.

I agree, God wanted us to be with Him in this world Thats the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Idea of Theosis or deification where one becomes as God, being partakers of the nature of Christ Through the holy spirit. This process is where you die to self giving up all selfish things and passions, and only looking to God through prayer and contemplation. All things must be ordered towards God.

Heaven is definatly seperate from this world though. the kingdom is where one is in thepresence of God, and praising him eternally.

i had to read it three times before i realised you said incredible, i thought you said "inedible".

incredible? that doesn't make sence, cause in=not, and credible=truethful, but you're trying to say something pro-christian, aren't you?
why do people always do this? Everyone knows what incredible means in context.

I have heard by many people that the reason that they don't believe in Christianity is that Christianity is full of hypocrites....and you know what, sometimes that is true. Christians are taught that Christ had an incredible amount of love for humanity (ALL humanity)...and yet His followers forget that we are called to be like Him....So I apologise for that....I apologise for any time that a Christian made you feel that you are not worthy of His grace...because us Christians are no more worthy than you are...in fact, as a believer, knowing that we are covered by the grace of God should make a Christian more humble and thankful...but it rarely does. Why?...because our own egos and self-importance get in the way. Every human being falls short of the grace of God....and yet everyone can have His grace....it's just about accepting Him into your heart and life and letting Him have His way with your heart. So I am sincerely sorry if you have ever felt judged as a non-believer. That is not what Christ taught His people. I'm sure that this post is making some Christians uncomfortable.....but let me ask those Christians....when was the last time that you got out of your comfort zone and related to those in your world that aren't considered moral people?....making friends with those people who are homeless, the prostitutes who sell their bodies for drugs, the neighbour that beats his wife, or even the unbeliever that just thinks that ALL Christians are judgemental hypocrites....It is so easy to judge others and to see what they are doing wrong...but how are you showing Jesus to the world? Anyway, my deepest apologies to all un-believers. It is my greatest prayer that you will encounter just ONE person that will show you exactly HOW MUCH Jesus loves the world by just loving you the same way. Please forgive me and God bless!! :)


That's certainly the right sentiment. If more people were like you in the world, the world would be a better place.

I agree, God wanted us to be with Him in this world Thats the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Idea of Theosis or deification where one becomes as God, being partakers of the nature of Christ Through the holy spirit. This process is where you die to self giving up all selfish things and passions, and only looking to God through prayer and contemplation. All things must be ordered towards God.

Heaven is definatly seperate from this world though. the kingdom is where one is in thepresence of God, and praising him eternally.
You see, I don't think Heaven is important, primarily because that is what reading the Gospels and interacting with other people has led me to believe. Ultimately, Jesus wanted us to live as though there was no heaven and to find and love both God and Man even while living such an idea. The true Kingdom is the Fellowship, not any selfish idea of reward for self-indulgent bootlicking. We worship God, but we accept nothingness should it come to us. Our representation of God on earth is to bring people to him as Friends, not to bribe or blackmail them through reward or punishment.

Any heaven that may exist should be neither expected nor particularly desired. Doing so is taking away from God himself. In that respect, there is no need to speculate about Heaven.

I'm not letting anyone have their way with me, least of all your god. These threads are amusing, however, so keep up the good work! ;)

Look, both Christianity and Evolution can be true. I look at it as before God sent us to Earth, the earth was kind of a "testing zone" and he was experimenting. And by the way, preachers can make mistakes, don't get all riled up about it. I firmly believe that all confusion about the Bible comes from imperfect translations of the Bible, and people who do not fully understand it. If you ask God to help u understand the doctrines in the Bible, he will help you, if you ask in the name of Jesus Christ, with faith and with pure intent. I know that to be true, because I know God answers prayers, because he has answered prayers that I have done. And if you pray to God, often the answer comes more in a feeling. And sometimes it's a no, in which you will most likely feel confused. I know this.

More of a feeling? Rather your own self talking to you in your head? I'm definitely staying atheist after that little lecture. Thanks for strengthening my disbelief in god. I mean come on.. all prayer does it make you feel good. I really don't think there is a higher power on the other end.

Pterodonia:

And if that is what you wish to believe, so be it....I'm not here to argue endlessly because that won't accomplish a thing....I'm just here to spread the love of Jesus as I am called to do..and that is just what I'm going to do!

I have no argument with spreading love - in fact, I think it's admirable - as long as that is truly what you are spreading (as opposed to the Christianity meme, which is really what most Christians are spreading). I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on the source of that love. You say it comes from Jesus, I say it comes from within. But what difference does it really make? Love is the key. Spread it on thickly. :)

Heaven is definatly seperate from this world though. the kingdom is where one is in thepresence of God, and praising him eternally.

That sounds more like Hell to me. Speaking of which...

A man and his dog were walking along a road. The man was enjoying the scenery, when it suddenly occurred to him that he was dead. He remembered dying, and that the dog walking beside him had been dead for years. He wondered where the road was leading them. After a while, they came to a high, white stone wall along one side of the road. It looked like fine marble. At the top of a long hill, it was broken by a tall arch that glowed in the sunlight. When he was standing before it he saw a magnificent gate in the arch that looked like Mother of Pearl, and the street that led to the gate looked like pure gold.

He and the dog walked toward the gate, and as he got closer, he saw a man at a desk to one side. When he was close enough, he called out, "Excuse me, where are we?"

"This is Heaven, sir," the man answered. "Wow! Would you happen to have some water?" the man asked.

"Of course, sir, come right in, and I'll have some iced water brought right up." The man gestured, and the gate began to open.

"Can my friend," gesturing toward his dog, "come in too?" the traveler asked.

"I'm sorry, sir, but we don't accept pets."

The man thought a moment and then turned back toward the road and continued the way he had been going with his dog.

After another long walk, and at the top of another long hill, he came to a dirt road which led through a farm gate that looked as if it had never been closed. There was no fence. As he approached the gate, he saw a man inside, leaning against a tree and reading a book.

"Excuse me!" he called to the reader. "Do you have any water?"

"Yeah, sure, there's a pump over there."

The man pointed to a place that couldn't be seen from outside the gate. "Come on in."

"How about my friend here?" the traveler gestured to the dog.

"There should be a bowl by the pump."

They went through the gate and sure enough, there was an old fashioned hand pump with a bowl beside it. The traveler filled the bowl and took a long drink himself, and then he gave some to the dog. When they were full, he and the dog walked back toward the man who was standing by the tree waiting for them.

"What do you call this place?" the traveler asked.

"This is Heaven," was the answer.

"Well, that's confusing," the traveler said. "The man down the road said that was Heaven, too."

"Oh, you mean the place with the gold street and pearly gates? Nope. That's Hell."

"Doesn't it make you mad for them to use heaven's name like that?"

"No. I can see how you might think so, but we're just happy that they screen out the folks who are willing to leave their friends behind."

What are u talking about???? How does what he said in ANY way say that he knows better than any other belief system, or that he has the path to salvation? By that way, by saying what you did, you have stated that someone who knows the path to salvation knows better than any other belief system, meaning that God knows better than any belief system, which is a silly thing to say because in saying that you are saying that no belief system is led by Jesus Christ,(because a church led by Christ would have his knowledge), and saying that no belief system is led by Jesus Christ is denying what Paul has said. Have you read the new testiment? From what u have said, u don't seem to understand it.

I have got no idea what you are trying to say.

The bit about the New Testament... yes, I've read it... quite a few times, actually.

Grave_n_idle:

I don't believe that I am any better than you....I never have...you are smart and challenge me...I like that....but I can still disagree with you....and you don't like that too much...if you wish to disagree with me, so be it....but please answer my question....you keep dodging it....by trying to reword it...and analyzing it to death...just answer....what will happen to those who are un-believers in Christianity, if it turns out that it is all true and not a "fairytale"?

Thank you for the 'smart' and 'challenging' comments.

I don't dislike you disagreeing with me, and I'm not sure where you got that idea. Go back and read my first post, it is entirely constructive criticism.

About the 'question' - why assume that ONLY the Christian definition is true? Surely, you can see that you are in the same boat as everyone else... in as much as NOBODY knows which story is true... although many people have BELIEFS.

But - assuming that the Bible is true, and that the 'God' it describes is real... the Atheist or worshipper of other gods has nothing to fear. Revelation is quite clear on this.

You diddn't read Genesis recently did u? After Adam begat Kain and Abel, he begat Seth, and that he begat Enos. It does not say that Adam begat another girl that Seth married in order to begat Enos, but obviously did, or else it was done by a miracle from God, as it did later on. So, assuming you believe in miracles, and/or assuming you believe that they might have left out that detail of who he may have married, it is still possible. And you have no idea why King James took out the 20 books or so from the Bible, but it seems to be a mistake on his part, but you have no idea why, and it could be any reason, it could even be that he was not allowed to. Don't assume things like that.

If you read the Creation story in Hebrew, it isn't hard to see how it applies to just ONE limited area, to ONE people, and to ONE god... it is only in later translations that this 'singularity' was translated into the 'exclusive' model we get now.

If you read Eden as being ONE location, and Adam's offspring as being ONE people, it is not hard to see where they found brides when they left 'the garden'... the 'other' people.

If you read the Creation story in Hebrew, it isn't hard to see how it applies to just ONE limited area, to ONE people, and to ONE god... it is only in later translations that this 'singularity' was translated into the 'exclusive' model we get now.

If you read Eden as being ONE location, and Adam's offspring as being ONE people, it is not hard to see where they found brides when they left 'the garden'... the 'other' people.
btw, in the hebrew version of the bible, there are many insider contradictions, including two different versions of the jenesis story. maybe they fixed it in the translation.

You don't understand. NOTHING is just a belief, unless it is untrue. Just because you do not have evidence of something, does not mean that it is untrue. You are classifying it as "just a belief" yet for all you know, everything he said could be true. He may know better than you, and he may have something to back it up. It's just that it may not be enough to be considered "evidence" which seeems to me to be relative. "Evidence" is just a way of definining what is believable. One person may deny that something is true even if it is "provable". Don't ever judge someone for thinking they know better than you, because maybe what they believe is true!

Didn't you read my post?

I said, 'just a belief' unless there is evidence...

Also - I didn't "judge someone'... I merely pointed out that assertions unsupported are 'just' belief. Which is true. Nothing is 'fact' until it is PROVED.

'True' or not, is irrelevent.

And, you are right, everything the other poster said COULD be true... but I've no reason to believe it is, and a whole host of reasons to believe it isn't...

btw, in the hebrew version of the bible, there are many insider contradictions, including two different versions of the jenesis story. maybe they fixed it in the translation.

Three different versions of the Genesis story... but one of them is very brief.

How do you mean, 'fixed in translation'?

That would imply that the Hebrew 'bible' is erroneous... and that is NOT a can of worms you'd want to open...

What books are talking about?

The 'Apocryphal' texts that remain in the Catholic bible, but were utterly excised for the 'Protestant' bible.

Maybe people should look beyond grammer becaue that's not what's important here. I for one applaud his stance, and hope that there are more moderates like him out there to help salvage christian/rest-of-the-world relations.


*High fives this guy*

Christianity is full of run-on sentences.


It's because of those old Guttenberg press bibles that didn't allow for much spacing.

And the fact that once a christian (or any religion really) gets the chance to start proselytizing (sic?) they haveto keep talking before people feel the need to ignore them or walk away.

Where are all the Scientologists in here? I guess we should be happy it's just a christian thing.

Grave_n_idle:

Wow, are you ever the expert in avoiding questions! Just answer my question please.....what will happen to those who are un-believers in Christianity, if it turns out that it is all true and not a "fairytale"? This isn't about ME not being able to see other possibilities....This is about YOU avoiding my question by answering it with other questions, analyzing the question to death and just ignoring the question that I asked you. So please answer it.

Grave_n_idle:

Wow, are you ever the expert in avoiding questions! Just answer my question please.....what will happen to those who are un-believers in Christianity, if it turns out that it is all true and not a "fairytale"? This isn't about ME not being able to see other possibilities....This is about YOU avoiding my question by answering it with other questions, analyzing the question to death and just ignoring the question that I asked you. So please answer it.


I don't know if this is addressed to me...then again it is a forum!

First off...non-believers...un-believers isn't a word.

Second, in the christian belief they would be sent to hell until they repented enough.

I think we all just die...end of story. Nothing happens. It's a horrible thing to accept. That's why we have religion. People fail to be able to deal with reality.

Balipo:

It was addressed to Grave_n_idle. If you took two seconds to READ the post, then you would've known that it wasn't intended for you. And I will ask Grave_n_idle this question over and over until HE answers it.

Balipo:

It was addressed to Grave_n_idle. If you took two seconds to READ the post, then you would've known that it wasn't intended for you. And I will ask Grave_n_idle this question over and over until HE answers it.

What Grave_n_idle initially said has nothing to do with the existence of god or lack thereof, it has to do with your attitude towards those who do not share your beliefs. And, speaking of hypocrisy, that's a point you've been avoiding since the start by repeating this same irrelevant question over and over.

The Necromonger Way:

I posed this question to him quite a few post back and he still hasn't answered it. If someone has different beliefs than me, so be it. I'm not here to try to change people's beliefs...I'm here to be a witness to Jesus. Tell me where I have been hypocritical...I asked him a question and he didn't answer it. I haven't judged anyone, or told them that they have to believe what I believe...I simply asked what if it is true, then what happens to those who don't believe? A very simple question. A question that he doesn't seem to want to answer. And don't worry, this question isn't leading to the "well, then you're going to hell" response....that isn't my place to judge.

Okay, I read a few pages but this got too long so I'm not going to read all of this - especially since it doesn't seem to have gone anywhere new. I just wanted to applaud the first poster (Woodsprites, right?) for understanding the point of Christianity, even if he/she came across to others as also having the Holier-Than-Thou attitude (which was unintentional, I'm sure). I believe the intended point was, as one of my friends put it, love the sinner, hate the sin. And I believe the last part was meant to be, I hope that you meet one Christian who actually follows Christ's teachings so that you understand what Christianity is really about, and don't hate us all for it.

I also hate being judged for being Christian - by both nonChristians and Christians alike! Some nonChristians think that I'm a fanatic (because I will pray when I so choose, even if it is in public), that I'm close minded about other religions (actually, I follow two religions, one Christian and one not), and that I will follow the "anti-choice, teach Christianity in school" doctrine when I am against both! Some Christians think that I'm not a good Christian because I don't follow the Bible to the letter of the law (I'm Quaker, that's what we do - we follow what we think God means or wants, not what was written and manipulated by humans long ago), because I won't jump on the anti-choice, teach Christianity in school bandwagon, etc.

And I hate it when people have the Holier-Than-Thou attitude, which they've directed towards me too. I also hate it when Christianity, or any other religion, is warped to someone else's wicked/powergaining ends.

Oh, and as to the "what would happen" thing, I think it really has to do with if the person was a good person or not. Recall that in the Bible it says that if the person STILL turns away from God when he/she sees that God is real, etc. I think it's not so much turning away from God as a deity, but turning away from what God stands for - which is being a good person. So, the exact religion (or even lack thereof) doesn't matter, just the intent.

Oxymoon:

If I have come off as being Holier-Than-Thou, that sure wasn't my intention and I apologise for that. I think Quakers are neat...I have a Quaker friend and we have some really cool conversations (though we don't agree on many things)!! More than anything, I wanted to show everyone that we are all people that God loves and no one is better than the other in God's eyes...and that is why Christians should be a beacon and show ALL people (not just select people) the love of Jesus.

I couldn't be bothered to read all those pages.

I do believe in God. I believe in what Jesus died for, and I believe in His neverending, incomprehensible love for mankind.

But I wouldn't really call myself a Christian.

I believe that God's love for humankind is greater than the Bible, greater than what a bunch of men said happened thousands of years ago.

Without trying to sound corny, we are all His children. A good parent knows that no matter what your child does, you will never judge them, you will never stop loving them, for they are your Children; your flesh and blood.

That's what I believe.

It's sad that I don't refer to myself as a Christian because my beliefs have a tendancy to stray for the sayings in the Bible, but I'm content with who I am and how I live my life, and I'm sure God is too.

The 'Apocryphal' texts that remain in the Catholic bible, but were utterly excised for the 'Protestant' bible.

Well Im catholic so I accept the duetrocannocal books "Apocryphal" is what Protestant call these books. I must also note that most of what people lash out against in these forums are Protestant Ideas and theology.

The Necromonger Way:

I posed this question to him quite a few post back and he still hasn't answered it. If someone has different beliefs than me, so be it. I'm not here to try to change people's beliefs...I'm here to be a witness to Jesus. Tell me where I have been hypocritical...I asked him a question and he didn't answer it. I haven't judged anyone, or told them that they have to believe what I believe...I simply asked what if it is true, then what happens to those who don't believe? A very simple question. A question that he doesn't seem to want to answer. And don't worry, this question isn't leading to the "well, then you're going to hell" response....that isn't my place to judge.
The reason he hasn't answered himself is because the question has been answered for him; several times, in fact.

If all this is true, then one of two things will happen.

God, in all his mercy, accepts us anyway. We all appreciate what a swell guy he is and worship him for eternity.

or

God, in his supreme wrath, gets rid of us. We all appreciate what an evil person he was all along and are quite happy to suffer rather than worship him.


Neither of those would be made any better by being Christian, because either we're all set anyway, or God would still accept or reject our friends by the degree to which they held to an uncertain idea; an attitude which is, by any Ethical standards, reproachable.

Kamsaki:

Ahhhh, but I want his response. I want him to answer the question. The question was not asked of anyone else. I asked him. And I will only respond to his answer.

Woodsprites:

Why, is there something invalid about mine?

The reason he hasn't answered himself is because the question has been answered for him; several times, in fact.

If all this is true, then one of two things will happen.

God, in all his mercy, accepts us anyway. We all appreciate what a swell guy he is and worship him for eternity.

or

God, in his supreme wrath, gets rid of us. We all appreciate what an evil person he was all along and are quite happy to suffer rather than worship him.


Neither of those would be made any better by being Christian, because either we're all set anyway, or God would still accept or reject our friends by the degree to which they held to an uncertain idea; an attitude which is, by any Ethical standards, reproachable.

Do you really think you would be happy suffering eternal torment, simply because you are there with freinds or loved ones who God condemned?

IN heaven you will not worry about those who are not there. It will be an awsome thing to be in the glory of God.

If one is uncertain it is their responsibility to find the truth. One can not Knowingly reject Christ or his Church.

Kamsaki:

The question wasn't for you or directed to you....it was specifically for Grave_n_idle....it isn't about what the answer to the question is....and when he answers the question then I will respond to him.

Well Im catholic...<snip> I must also note that most of what people lash out against in these forums are Protestant Ideas and theology.


That's because we've sort of gotten away from judging everyone who isn't Catholic and condemning them as heathens. Of course the evangelicals don't consider us to be Christian at all.

Do you really think you would be happy suffering eternal torment, simply because you are there with freinds or loved ones who God condemned?

IN heaven you will not worry about those who are not there. It will be an awsome thing to be in the glory of God.

If one is uncertain it is their responsibility to find the truth. One can not Knowingly reject Christ or his Church.
What kind of reasoning is that? Of course I would be happy suffering along with my friends rather than siding the one who caused such suffering. Well, maybe not happy as such, but significantly more justified in my actions than I feel I would be otherwise. It's a little thing called Conscience.

I don't want to "Not Worry" about my loved ones who rot. That, my friend, is like buying a cheap car from the Mafia and praising them for their good prices even while you know that such a car came by ill-gotten means: Criminal.

Just because I would benefit doesn't make an action justified. And I therefore do knowingly reject his Church, even while I live his life. The idea of Heaven as your Church portrays it is a false tradition that should be disposed of, and I would take that to hell with me if I must.

Maybe people should look beyond grammer becaue that's not what's important here. I for one applaud his stance, and hope that there are more moderates like him out there to help salvage christian/rest-of-the-world relations.

I agree. Woodsprirt has made a sincere attempt to mend torn fences and atone for the actions of some pretty nasty people. Now isn't the time to harp on grammar.

I have had plenty of people attack my religion in my life. At one point in time, I was honestly nervous around people wearing crosses due to the things many had of them had said to me. I appreciate Woodsprit's words. Thank you.

Grave_n_idle:

Wow, are you ever the expert in avoiding questions! Just answer my question please.....what will happen to those who are un-believers in Christianity, if it turns out that it is all true and not a "fairytale"? This isn't about ME not being able to see other possibilities....This is about YOU avoiding my question by answering it with other questions, analyzing the question to death and just ignoring the question that I asked you. So please answer it.

I just feel that I have to post this due to growing annoyance. GnI has already answered this question of yours. Twice. If you could be bothered to actually read his posts you would see this:


Going to your last question (the Pascal Wager-type thing). You say "what if there is a god?" - but you MEAN "what if there is MY god?"... because if it isn't the one you've been bending and scraping to, your just as shot as the other poor sinners, right?

And this:


About the 'question' - why assume that ONLY the Christian definition is true? Surely, you can see that you are in the same boat as everyone else... in as much as NOBODY knows which story is true... although many people have BELIEFS.

But - assuming that the Bible is true, and that the 'God' it describes is real... the Atheist or worshipper of other gods has nothing to fear. Revelation is quite clear on this.

If these are not answers to your question, I don't know what you are looking for.

Cromotar:

No, he hasn't answered my question...he has swiftly avoided it...I'm not assuming that Christianity is true...I was simply asking him what if it is? Then what? What about anyone who hasn't accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior? You see, this isn't about me damning anyone....this is about me showing
Grave_n_idle that I have the obligation to MY God to spread the love of Jesus to all those who don't know Him. And that is exactly what I will do. It's not about judging him or his beliefs....it is about staying true to mine.

Cromotar:

No, he hasn't answered my question...he has swiftly avoided it...I'm not assuming that Christianity is true...I was simply asking him what if it is? Then what? What about anyone who hasn't accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior? You see, this isn't about me damning anyone....this is about me showing
Grave_n_idle that I have the obligation to MY God to spread the love of Jesus to all those who don't know Him. And that is exactly what I will do. It's not about judging him or his beliefs....it is about staying true to mine.

*claps*

Cromotar:

No, he hasn't answered my question...he has swiftly avoided it...I'm not assuming that Christianity is true...I was simply asking him what if it is? Then what? What about anyone who hasn't accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior? You see, this isn't about me damning anyone....this is about me showing
Grave_n_idle that I have the obligation to MY God to spread the love of Jesus to all those who don't know Him. And that is exactly what I will do. It's not about judging him or his beliefs....it is about staying true to mine.

Your question has been answered, if not directly. What you proclaim is known as "Pascal's Wager" and has been soundly refuted, with the simple fact that the exact same absolute applies to you as well. What if Islam is true? Then you are faced with the same dilemma and would not go to Heaven because you are a non-believer. Since no one faith can be proven to be more accurate than any other there is no need to answer the question directly as it is a logical fallacy that does not have the right to be treated as a real argument.

Cromotar:

I know ALL about Pascal's Wager. I have studied Philosophy and World Religion. My point had NOTHING to do with the question itself....did you not read my post to you? I'll post MY point...and you'll see why what you just wrote is irrelevant.

"You see, this isn't about me damning anyone....this is about me showing
Grave_n_idle that I have the obligation to MY God to spread the love of Jesus to all those who don't know Him. And that is exactly what I will do. It's not about judging him or his beliefs....it is about staying true to mine."

good post woodsprite(original one i mean.) thank you for being a true christian as Jesus intended. however,i need to say something here...


selfish,angry,judgemental "christians" make it easy to hate the church and all who associate with it,but leaving that aside for the moment,there are other reasons why i dont go to church and hang out with christians:

1. god does not live in the church...god is everywhere
2. you dont need a priest to have a relationship with god
3. the church has ommitted information and kept secrets,even from its own
followers...

4. many of the christians ideals and traditions were really revised or modified
from earlier PAGAN religions,yet if you dont follow christianity,you are a
pagan doomed to hell...(what?! mmmmmkay)

5. the christian church is primarily responsible for the fear of love and sex.
sex is a normal,healthy,god-given right to all humans,but most people are
so screwed up about it that they cant function in the bedroom at all.

6. a loving forgiving understanding omnipotent god is going to torture millions
apon millions of his beloved children because they are hindu or budhist and
not christian? and what about the jews? they are christians too,but they
dont believe jesus was the christ....

7. you only have the choice of free-will if you choose to be good and follow
in jesus' footsteps. what? if you choose to be evil and you go to hell for it
then was it really free will? how can he punish you for making a "wrong
choice" and still call it free will? how sadistic does a god have to be to
allow his children to be tempted by evil(knowing how weak we are)and
then refuse us entry into heaven because we failed some test only he can
fathom?


i stopped at seven because seven is a holy number according to the kaballah,
("holy" magic,eh? hmmmmm)but there are many more such examples i could
list here. you get the picture.

my final opinion: regardless of what you call him/her,we are all actually worshipping the same source in whatever way our culture dictates. there may only be one source,but there are many paths to spiritual enlightenment. anyone who tells you that their way is the only way is just trying to control you....

Cromotar:

I know ALL about Pascal's Wager. I have studied Philosophy and World Religion. My point had NOTHING to do with the question itself....did you not read my post to you? I'll post MY point...and you'll see why what you just wrote is irrelevant.

"You see, this isn't about me damning anyone....this is about me showing
Grave_n_idle that I have the obligation to MY God to spread the love of Jesus to all those who don't know Him. And that is exactly what I will do. It's not about judging him or his beliefs....it is about staying true to mine."

I can appreciate your stance here, but if the question was not part of the point, why did you go on and on about GnI not answering it? What was the point of all that, well, whining?

"You see, this isn't about me damning anyone....this is about me showing Grave_n_idle that I have the obligation to MY God to spread the love of Jesus to all those who don't know Him. And that is exactly what I will do. It's not about judging him or his beliefs....it is about staying true to mine."
And, as I have shown, you have no such obligation. In the end of days, if your beliefs are correct, God will either accept all or reject some, and if he rejects some, I and many like me will choose to be rejected regardless of God's opinion of us. All your Pro-Jesus cheerleading will only make us live in a way that would rank US higher in YOUR God's eyes; it does not in any way fix HIS ethical justification, and that is where the problem lies.

Stay true to your beliefs, but they are the same as mine. I simply think it's a bad thing rather than a good thing.

Cromotar:

Him ANSWERING the question was part of my point...not everyone else answering it....you see, he likes to get on his high-horse about "enlightening" us Christians...and yet, he doesn't seem to understand that Christians are CALLED to spread the news of the Gospel...and so we will, because Christians believe that in order to go to heaven one needs to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior.

Kamsaki:

I will stay true to my beliefs!! :) And whether you see it as a good thing or a bad thing is pretty much irrelevant to me. I have seen the miracles of Jesus in people's lives. I have seen sickness cured, I have seen lives put back together and I have seen suffering cease. So I will continue to love all of humanity...and that includes you!! :)

Cromotar:

Him ANSWERING the question was part of my point...not everyone else answering it....you see, he likes to get on his high-horse about "enlightening" us Christians...and yet, he doesn't seem to understand that Christians are CALLED to spread the news of the Gospel...and so we will, because Christians believe that in order to go to heaven one needs to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior.

But he DID answer... oh, forget it. I can see I'm not getting anywhere here. I'd better stop here before I get so exasperated I say something out of line.

Cromotar:

Why get so frustrated over this? You were the one who decided to butt into a conversation that wasn't directed to you. It was your choice to post something about what was going on between Grave_n_idle and me. So why get so upset when it was never intended for you in the first place?

I have heard by many people that the reason that they don't believe in Christianity is that Christianity is full of hypocrites....and you know what, sometimes that is true. Christians are taught that Christ had an incredible amount of love for humanity (ALL humanity)...and yet His followers forget that we are called to be like Him....So I apologise for that....I apologise for any time that a Christian made you feel that you are not worthy of His grace...because us Christians are no more worthy than you are...in fact, as a believer, knowing that we are covered by the grace of God should make a Christian more humble and thankful...but it rarely does. Why?...because our own egos and self-importance get in the way. Every human being falls short of the grace of God....and yet everyone can have His grace....it's just about accepting Him into your heart and life and letting Him have His way with your heart. So I am sincerely sorry if you have ever felt judged as a non-believer. That is not what Christ taught His people. I'm sure that this post is making some Christians uncomfortable.....but let me ask those Christians....when was the last time that you got out of your comfort zone and related to those in your world that aren't considered moral people?....making friends with those people who are homeless, the prostitutes who sell their bodies for drugs, the neighbour that beats his wife, or even the unbeliever that just thinks that ALL Christians are judgemental hypocrites....It is so easy to judge others and to see what they are doing wrong...but how are you showing Jesus to the world? Anyway, my deepest apologies to all un-believers. It is my greatest prayer that you will encounter just ONE person that will show you exactly HOW MUCH Jesus loves the world by just loving you the same way. Please forgive me and God bless!! :)


... are you trying to convert me?..

Kamsaki:

I will stay true to my beliefs!! :) And whether you see it as a good thing or a bad thing is pretty much irrelevant to me. I have seen the miracles of Jesus in people's lives. I have seen sickness cured, I have seen lives put back together and I have seen suffering cease. So I will continue to love all of humanity...and that includes you!! :)
No worries; I encourage that, and think that universal love and coexistence are the point that Jesus's message was trying to put across. ^_^

I do think though that the conceptual heaven needs rethinking. In its current format, it puts God across as a narrow minded and callous individual. I think it's a selfish ideology, and I furthermore think that Jesus's message is no worse off without it.

The Kingdom of God is not to be an object for your desires. You would all do well to remember that.

E Blackadder:

Nope!! :)

Woodsprites:

Why get so frustrated over this? You were the one who decided to butt into a conversation that wasn't directed to you. It was your choice to post something about what was going on between Grave_n_idle and God. So why get so upset when it was never intended for you in the first place?

See the irony?

(Sorry, I couldn't resist. :D)

Cromotar:

My statements have NOTHING to do with what HE believes. His god could be the man-in-the-moon for all it really matters....it has EVERYTHING to do with MY beliefs and WHY I posted my original post in the first place. I'm not here to "prove" Christianity to anyone...Christians are CALLED to spread the Gospel and that is what I will do. MY beliefs CALL me to reach out to all of those who don't know Jesus because (according to MY beliefs) you can only get to heaven through accepting Jesus as your Savior.

Cromotar:

My statements have NOTHING to do with what HE believes. His god could be the man-in-the-moon for all it really matters....it has EVERYTHING to do with MY beliefs and WHY I posted my original post in the first place. I'm not here to "prove" Christianity to anyone...Christians are CALLED to spread the Gospel and that is what I will do. MY beliefs CALL me to reach out to all of those who don't know Jesus because (according to MY beliefs) you can only get to heaven through accepting Jesus as your Savior.

how many freinds have you got which dont bible-bash?

how many freinds have you got which dont bible-bash?
What does that have to do with anything? All my friends bible-bash, and it has no effect on any of my views that would be considered "Counter-Christian".

What does that have to do with anything? All my friends bible-bash, and it has no effect on any of my views that would be considered "Counter-Christian".

those who live in a complete christian enviroment (bible belt america, wales etc) are bound to be christian because they may have known nothing else

E Blackadder:

I have friends of all religions. In fact, most of my friends aren't Christian. And I can talk to each of them about my beliefs and they can talk to me about theirs. With my friends that aren't Christian we tend to look for the similarities in our beliefs, instead of harping on the differences. And I love each of my friends with all of my heart, even if they don't share my faith.

E Blackadder:

I have friends of all religions. In fact, most of my friends aren't Christian. And I can talk to each of them about my beliefs and they can talk to me about theirs. With my friends that aren't Christian we tend to look for the similarities in our beliefs, instead of harping on the differences. And I love each of my friends with all of my heart, even if they don't share my faith.

bit excesive isnt it?..

in that case i have no quarals with you.

E Blackadder:

LOL...even if you did have "quarrels" with me....it wouldn't matter, since I am not seeking for your approval. :)

E Blackadder:

LOL...even if you did have "quarrels" with me....it wouldn't matter, since I am not seeking for your approval. :)

Good. you should not seek my,or anyone elses approval. Merely register the fact that you have it and that it is not my approval but my respect.

E Blackadder:

Cool! Thanks! :)

Balipo:

It was addressed to Grave_n_idle. If you took two seconds to READ the post, then you would've known that it wasn't intended for you. And I will ask Grave_n_idle this question over and over until HE answers it.

And, as Balipo pointed out, IN his/her post, he/she was going to reply to it anyway, because this IS A FORUM.

I'm not sure you pay attention to other people's posts, you know... you certainly don't seem to actually read anything I write.

What Grave_n_idle initially said has nothing to do with the existence of god or lack thereof, it has to do with your attitude towards those who do not share your beliefs. And, speaking of hypocrisy, that's a point you've been avoiding since the start by repeating this same irrelevant question over and over.

Exactly.

My commentary was constructive criticism about how Woodsprites might like to alter his/her approach. I even applauded the sentiments.

However, it seems that Woodsprites would rather discuss the folly of the non-believer, than take any advice.

Ah well, whatever.

(But, thank you for attempting to explain my message, to those who would not hear).

Well Im catholic so I accept the duetrocannocal books "Apocryphal" is what Protestant call these books. I must also note that most of what people lash out against in these forums are Protestant Ideas and theology.

I think the problem is that (currently) Protestant religion is aggressive, while Catholicism is happy to sit back and chill-out a bit.

Protestant religions also seem to be somewhat inflexible, with regard to other faiths, or even slight variations of understanding of scripture.

Which is all very ironic, when you consider that Protestants had to amend the Bible, in order to have it conform to their faith.

Kamsaki:

Ahhhh, but I want his response. I want him to answer the question. The question was not asked of anyone else. I asked him. And I will only respond to his answer.

And yet, as Kamsaki expresses, my general thoughts have been understood by others... it seems that only you are blind to my responses.

I just feel that I have to post this due to growing annoyance. GnI has already answered this question of yours. Twice. If you could be bothered to actually read his posts you would see this:

And this:

If these are not answers to your question, I don't know what you are looking for.

It really does seem that ONLY Woodsprites cannot see my responses...

I wonder if he/she has me on 'ignore'?

Cromotar:

No, he hasn't answered my question...he has swiftly avoided it...I'm not assuming that Christianity is true...I was simply asking him what if it is? Then what? What about anyone who hasn't accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior? You see, this isn't about me damning anyone....this is about me showing
Grave_n_idle that I have the obligation to MY God to spread the love of Jesus to all those who don't know Him. And that is exactly what I will do. It's not about judging him or his beliefs....it is about staying true to mine.

The question has been answered. The question has ALSO been dissected... since it contains an inherent flaw. Cromotar managed to paste BOTH of those things into the post you attacked, and yet you STILL claim that I have refused to answer.

I think you choose not to see.

And, further, I think you choose not to see, JUST because you got incensed at my constructive criticism. But, maybe I'm wrong...?

Cromotar:

Him ANSWERING the question was part of my point...not everyone else answering it....you see, he likes to get on his high-horse about "enlightening" us Christians...and yet, he doesn't seem to understand that Christians are CALLED to spread the news of the Gospel...and so we will, because Christians believe that in order to go to heaven one needs to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior.

I have answered the question.

Other people have taken some of my thoughts and expanded/explained.

What is all this about my 'high-horse'? When was that, exactly?

When did I preach 'enlightenment' to 'us Christians'?

How do you determine that I don't "understand that Christians are CALLED to spread the news"? I think you are confusing 'understand' with 'appreciate'... or maybe 'care'.

And, then... right at the end, after all your good work as an apologist back at the genesis of the thread... you reveal militant stripes: "Christians are CALLED to spread the news of the Gospel...and so we will"...

Those poor pagans have no say, do they? You are going to 'save them', whether they like it or not...

Kamsaki:

I will stay true to my beliefs!! :) And whether you see it as a good thing or a bad thing is pretty much irrelevant to me. I have seen the miracles of Jesus in people's lives. I have seen sickness cured, I have seen lives put back together and I have seen suffering cease. So I will continue to love all of humanity...and that includes you!! :)

I have seen sickness cured by Allah. I have seen sickness cured by the application of crystals. I have seen sickness cured by shining coloured lights at photographs.

You confuse what you BELIEVE you see, with what you see.

But he DID answer... oh, forget it. I can see I'm not getting anywhere here. I'd better stop here before I get so exasperated I say something out of line.

I thank you for your efforts, my friend.

Kamsaki, Balipo, The Necromonger Way, and yourself have ALL sought to explain something to Woodsprites here, and failed to acheive any satisfactory results.

Your (collective) efforts were not entirely wasted, however. I (for one) appreciate the efforts that have been put in, here.

All I'm going to say is thank you for the first post in this thread. I think it's criminal what certain people (like Rev. Fred Phelps and his gang) have done in the name of "God."

Cromotar:

My statements have NOTHING to do with what HE believes. His god could be the man-in-the-moon for all it really matters....it has EVERYTHING to do with MY beliefs and WHY I posted my original post in the first place. I'm not here to "prove" Christianity to anyone...Christians are CALLED to spread the Gospel and that is what I will do. MY beliefs CALL me to reach out to all of those who don't know Jesus because (according to MY beliefs) you can only get to heaven through accepting Jesus as your Savior.

I have to say, I was under the impression that the MAIN point of your opening gambit was that we are ALL sinners... even the 'saved'.

I had considered that you were trying to extend an olive branch - not this militant-evangelist agenda.

Also, you might want to think about your work in this thread, in light of my first comment (which was a constructive criticism) - and YOUR OWN wisdom, as shown by your comment: "It is so easy to judge others and to see what they are doing wrong...but how are you showing Jesus to the world"?

MY beliefs CALL me to reach out to all of those who don't know Jesus because (according to MY beliefs) you can only get to heaven through accepting Jesus as your Savior.

THAT is my problem with Christianity! You can ONLY get to heaven through accepting Jesus as your Savior. Evangelical Christians seem to argue that Jesus will cast me into eternal damnation & suffering if I refuse to worship Him. What sort of vain God is that? He created all of the world & humanity so he could have cute little creatures that would worship Him? I want no part of it.

If I invite people over for a dinner party, I'm not going to cast them out if they don't bother to thank me for the delicious meal I've prepared for them. I'll probably invite them back again, and I won't dump Ex-Lax in their soup to punish them for failing to pay homage to me for the bountiful gifts I have given them. I refuse to accept a God who is apparently less benevolent & forgiving than I am.

Grave_n_idle:

You can see what you wish....but I do think you are someone who has an axe to grind with Christians (or at least that is how you come off), so you take it out on Christians here....case in point, you take a very well meaning post and critizise it. Why? What makes you think that you know any better than me, unless you ARE trying to "enlighten" me because you have ALL of the answers? At least I'm trying to do something about all of the hatred that I see in the world over religion. Also, there was the time that you came into a perfectly wonderful conversation that I was having with someone else and turned it into a "prove it to me" type of conversation. You ruined it for me...because I'm not into "prove-me-wrong-or-I-am-right" conversations. I learned in my early twenties that those conversations never get anywhere. I am not out for your approval. I love you Grave_n_idle! And I have and will continue to pray for you...(and not just for your salvation...but for your happiness, your health, your well-being and your life in general)!! Just for the record, just because I am Christian, doesn't mean that I can't see evidence of God in other religions....you are ASSuming that. I have never said it.

wow you are the only decent christian I've met besides my grandma

Grave_n_idle:

You can see what you wish....but I do think you are someone who has an axe to grind with Christians (or at least that is how you come off), so you take it out on Christians here....case in point, you take a very well meaning post and critizise it. Why? What makes you think that you know any better than me, unless you ARE trying to "enlighten" me because you have ALL of the answers? At least I'm trying to do something about all of the hatred that I see in the world over religion. Also, there was the time that you came into a perfectly wonderful conversation that I was having with someone else and turned it into a "prove it to me" type of conversation. You ruined it for me...because I'm not into "prove-me-wrong-or-I-am-right" conversations. I learned in my early twenties that those conversations never get anywhere. I am not out for your approval. I love you Grave_n_idle! And I have and will continue to pray for you...(and not just for your salvation...but for your happiness, your health, your well-being and your life in general)!! Just for the record, just because I am Christian, doesn't mean that I can't see evidence of God in other religions....you are ASSuming that. I have never said it.

For a Christian, you have an 'interesting way' about you...

I have no specific axe to grind with anyone... although I do like to debate, and will point out errors where I see them. If you'd care to ask some of the Christians on the forum (Dempublicents1, Personal Responsibilit, for example), I think you will find I debate Christianity (yes), but with no 'agenda'... EXCEPT that I favour a PERSONAL relationship with god, over an 'organised' one.

I certainly have taken nothing 'out on you'... I wonder why you feel this sense of persecution? As far as i can tell, I came into this thread to offer a little advice, and you have chosen to take it as a declaration of war. To me - assuming that you are ABOVE any advice, is either folly, or hubris. Neither would be a good trait.

If you look at my criticism of your first post - it was NOT an attack. Go back and re-read. It was simple, constructive criticism, for how you could not alienate those you were trying to apologise to. I even applauded your sentiment, did I not?

I didn't realise that means I am trying to 'enlighten' you... I though it was assistance. I certainly did not claim to have all the answers. I could, however, see that your apologetic passage carried some material that was destined to rub some people the wrong way.

What makes you think I am NOT doing something to combat the hatred of the world? You know nothing of me.

I see you are bringing up the 'other' thread... but I notice you are being perhaps dishonest? You said there were no extrapolations of the Bible, in common Christian theology, and I pointed out that there were. If you cannot take such a point being debated, do NOT state it as fact.

In fact: "The ONLY thing I'll say is: You, yourself, have admitted that the information is NOT given or directly stated in any single part of scripture, and that you have to draw conclusions from combining data and forming a conclusion... and that pretty much describes extrapolation"... I hardly think I came across as "prove-me-wrong-or-I-am-right".

I think it a little sad that you think "those conversations never get anywhere"... because, if that is true, it means you are preaching, not debating. I've learned a lot from my debates on this forum, and I'm most assuredly not too proud to admit that.

Thank you for your prayers, there's not a man among us that couldn't use the help of an interventionist god.


Last point: "just because I am Christian, doesn't mean that I can't see evidence of God in other religions"... I don't see that that follows logically from anything I said... but, way to go. Good for you. I'll be magnanimous enough to overlook the 'ASSuming' parting-shot.

Shalom, friend.

Don't make enemies, where you could make friends.

What kind of reasoning is that? Of course I would be happy suffering along with my friends rather than siding the one who caused such suffering. Well, maybe not happy as such, but significantly more justified in my actions than I feel I would be otherwise. It's a little thing called Conscience.

I don't want to "Not Worry" about my loved ones who rot. That, my friend, is like buying a cheap car from the Mafia and praising them for their good prices even while you know that such a car came by ill-gotten means: Criminal.

Just because I would benefit doesn't make an action justified. And I therefore do knowingly reject his Church, even while I live his life. The idea of Heaven as your Church portrays it is a false tradition that should be disposed of, and I would take that to hell with me if I must.

First of all you have to understand that man caused suffering not God. the world was perfect before man rejectd God and because of this you and I suffer from a wounded nature that is inclined to sin. Sin is nothing but selfishness While following God is not. One should not do good, or follow Jesus just for heaven, it should be for the love of God only. You or I make the choice to reject God and sin. We do these things to put off our mortality instead of accepting the medicine to death which is Christ. I hope you dont mean these things.

First of all you have to understand that man caused suffering not God. the world was perfect before man rejectd God...

Perfect? With a lying snake, it was perfect?

With two naked dimwits set a test they could not pass?

I think you have to take a VERY shallow reading of Genesis to believe the world was 'perfect', or that 'man' was the cause of suffering.

Grave_n_idle:

I wasn't asking for advice or looking for advice....I didn't ask for "assistance" of any kind...I read your first comment again, and to me, as much as you applauded me for my efforts, your comments came off as somewhat sarcastic....especially when you decided to use the whole "fairytale" comment to demonstrate your point....if that is not how you intended it, then I'm sorry for reading it that way, but then maybe you should've used a different illustration for your point...and what I mean by "those conversations never get anywhere" is that I have little desire to "prove" Christianity to people. That is God's job. And I am just His instrument to spread the Gospel. Nothing more. So I write what I am called to write, but I don't see the point of debating endlessly something that neither side can prove....and as far as the previous debate that we had, it wasn't about the debate in itself (I think we had a wonderful debate)...I was more upset that you came into a wonderful conversation that I was having and turned it into something else....and yes, I know this is a public forum and anyone can post...but I wasn't there to "prove" Christianity....or even argue the veracity of the Bible...I'm just here to share the message of the Gospel. That is all. By the way, what do you mean by "For a Christian, you have an 'interesting way' about you...?"

I have heard by many people that the reason that they don't believe in Christianity is that Christianity is full of hypocrites...

WRONG in my case. Whether or not Christianity or any other religion is full of hypocrites is irrelevant to me. There is no evidence to support the existence of a god or gods. The absence of an explanation for something is not evidence of the supernatural.

Grave_n_idle:

I wasn't asking for advice or looking for advice....I didn't ask for "assistance" of any kind...I read your first comment again, and to me, as much as you applauded me for my efforts, your comments came off as somewhat sarcastic....especially when you decided to use the whole "fairytale" comment to demonstrate your point....if that is not how you intended it, then I'm sorry for reading it that way, but then maybe you should've used a different illustration for your point...and what I mean by "those conversations never get anywhere" is that I have little desire to "prove" Christianity to people. That is God's job. And I am just His instrument to spread the Gospel. Nothing more. So I write what I am called to write, but I don't see the point of debating endlessly something that neither side can prove....and as far as the previous debate that we had, it wasn't about the debate in itself (I think we had a wonderful debate)...I was more upset that you came into a wonderful conversation that I was having and turned it into something else....and yes, I know this is a public forum and anyone can post...but I wasn't there to "prove" Christianity....or even argue the veracity of the Bible...I'm just here to share the message of the Gospel. That is all. By the way, what do you mean by "For a Christian, you have an 'interesting way' about you...?"

See, the thing is... you posted on the forum. That kind of IMPLIES that you want feedback.

If you don't want anyone to respond, just type it into your word processor, and then save it away on your hard-drive, out of harms way.

Since you DID post on the forum, I thought I'd congratulate you on your effort... it really IS a worthwhile thing... but I ALSO thought I'd comment on the rather heavy-handed close to your post. I think you'll find that whispered conversations are often more effective than ANY amount of placard waving.

Perhaps you don't see it, but your closing 'preach' is going to fly all over certain people. You are going to come across VERY MUCH as 'holier-than-thou'... and I think that some of the comments made since have borne me out. I made a gesture... I should you HOW that line was going to feel to others that DO NOT share your belief structure.

If it's all the same to you, I've left the other thread to rest once, and I'm going to do it again... unless you wish to re-open the issue back in the original thread. The only thing I'll say is: in THAT thread, I made a special point of saying that I wasn't debating biblical veracity... ONLY extrapolation... so I feel you misunderstood me, or are misrepresenting me. I chose to believe that you misunderstood... or just 'missed that bit'.

Regarding the 'odd way about you'... well... apparently confrontational (based on the last post), and bearing grudges (based on raising dead issues)... not CONVENTIONALLY 'Christian' values...

and if you are right and there is no God...then what harm have I done?....other than encouraging people to love one another....

You've done little but, you must take responsibility for your part in a massive worldwide waste of resources that could have been utilized in bettering all of humanity and the world we live in.

but, what if there is a God

And what if it isn't yours? What if god(s) exist and think christians are despicable syncophants that demean and insult it's existance with thier worship?

You may think that extreme and rediculous but, that's one reason why the christian theologist threw out Pascal's wager (thats the name for your argument) as invalid and useless.

You assume the god possibility is 50-50 (BTW so do the idiots with the "probablility" arguments) whereas, yours is only one of thousands of possible (though, IMHO, unlikely) gods created by humans over the years.

Grave_n_idle:

You can see things however you want to....I never ONCE told you that you had to believe what I believe....and if someone takes offense to something I post, then so be it! The gospel IS offensive!!! I will never "sell out" my beliefs and MY God out of fear of offending someone! I never said that I was perfect, or that I have all the answers (I don't think any of us do).....but I do believe that all Christians are CALLED to spread the Gospel...Because I am Christian you have made some very BIG assumptions about what I believe about God.....the only things that I have stated about my beliefs are that a) I believe that Christians are called to share the love of Christ with others, b) that one needs to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior in order to be forgiven and saved by grace, and c) We all fall short of the glory of God. Everything else you have just assumed. And just because I go to church, doesn't mean that I don't have a very personal relationship with God...in fact, I find the politics in churches to be awful and disgusting...I go to church to worship God, for the fellowship of fellow Christians, the support system, and the growth in God's Word. One of the reasons that I know that I am meant to go into ministry is that I know that I am called to "battle" the political crap that goes on in many churches today. I don't wish to argue back and forth with you...it's like throwing sand at each other in the playground...and it doesn't prove anything.

Durass:

I know what Pascal's Wager is all about...I have studied Philosophy and World Religion extensively...my point had nothing to do with trying to convince him that he should then decide to believe in God because otherwise he is screwed...my point was simply that the reason why Christians spread the Gospel is because we are CALLED to spread the word to those who have not yet been "saved", so he should not be surprised at my orginal post....Instead, people got all bent on the Pascal Wager thing, so I never really got to make my point.

Perfect? With a lying snake, it was perfect?

With two naked dimwits set a test they could not pass?

I think you have to take a VERY shallow reading of Genesis to believe the world was 'perfect', or that 'man' was the cause of suffering.

I dont belive my reading to be shallow at all. While I tend to have a more literal outlook on scripture The Catholic church has never defined if the serpent is literal or not. That being said the world was perfect, man succumed to the devil. You have to understand that this was so heineous because their nature was not wounded like ours. they could have easily passed the "test" and lived in paradise, but pride and jealousy overcame them. they wished to be like God and therefore suffered the consequences of their actions, just as you and I will.

What? Do you not think freewill is in accord with perfection? Should we be automatrons? doing nothing of our own will? Satan had free will, and he rejected God. Man also chose that path. Thankfully, God gave us his son for our salvation, by his glorious sacrifice to atone for our sins and appease the wrath of god. By accepting Christ and being baptised into his church you too can partake of eternal life.

I have heard by many people that the reason that they don't believe in Christianity is that Christianity is full of hypocrites....and you know what, sometimes that is true. Christians are taught that Christ had an incredible amount of love for humanity (ALL humanity)...and yet His followers forget that we are called to be like Him....So I apologise for that....I apologise for any time that a Christian made you feel that you are not worthy of His grace...because us Christians are no more worthy than you are...in fact, as a believer, knowing that we are covered by the grace of God should make a Christian more humble and thankful...but it rarely does. Why?...because our own egos and self-importance get in the way. Every human being falls short of the grace of God....and yet everyone can have His grace....it's just about accepting Him into your heart and life and letting Him have His way with your heart. So I am sincerely sorry if you have ever felt judged as a non-believer. That is not what Christ taught His people. I'm sure that this post is making some Christians uncomfortable.....but let me ask those Christians....when was the last time that you got out of your comfort zone and related to those in your world that aren't considered moral people?....making friends with those people who are homeless, the prostitutes who sell their bodies for drugs, the neighbour that beats his wife, or even the unbeliever that just thinks that ALL Christians are judgemental hypocrites....It is so easy to judge others and to see what they are doing wrong...but how are you showing Jesus to the world? Anyway, my deepest apologies to all un-believers. It is my greatest prayer that you will encounter just ONE person that will show you exactly HOW MUCH Jesus loves the world by just loving you the same way. Please forgive me and God bless!! :)

'Sprites,
I think thats very admirable of you to try and apologize for the shortcomings of your fellow Christians in terms of being judgemental.
However, I dont think its your responsibility to do so.

Being judgemental is what we humans do, regardless of religion.
We tend to make a first impression of people, and very often, this turns into generalization of an entire religion, or belief system, or even, an entire race.
Most of us can realize that generalizing is not always a smart thing to do, and try as best we can not to resort to those lines of thinking.

Sadly, there are asshats on this site, and other places, that will make smart ass remarks about run on sentences, or simply judge you for what you believe.
I want to assure you, that even though you and I have vastly different spiritual beliefs, I do not lump you into any catagory or with any other Christians for that matter.

I wish that all Christians shared your open mindedness, and all atheists for that matter.

We really arent all that different.

Ties that bind and all that...

Christianity is full of run-on sentences.
sooooo true

now now i have a solution to religion.......... lets all just smoke pot and be nice :D

Woodsrpite,

If it's not your point, why use Pascals Wager?

The base of the wager is that there are two possibilities, god exists or god does not exist.

You asked GnI what he would do if your version of god exists and is the one he faces after death. This can pretty much only be taken as a threat which is the only part of PW you left unstated. Also, as I noted (which you like most christians don't respond to) is the fact that if you're wrong, you have done harm by wasting humanities resources.

At any rate, in the unlikely event that I face god when I die. I'll be able to honestly state that there was nothing that pointed towards it's existance and plenty of evidence against it.

First of all you have to understand that man caused suffering not God. the world was perfect before man rejectd God and because of this you and I suffer from a wounded nature that is inclined to sin.
While this is a point with which, on an earthly level, I would agree to some extent, my point was the suffering in the Afterlife. Hell. Non-heaven. That can in no way be said to be a product of Man.

And as for whether or not "God" (( Note that I use "God" whenever I want to refer to the Christian description and attributation of God as opposed to God in whatever form he takes )) is responsible for this, I want to use, again, an analogy. Some evil supervillian kidnaps Claire and Bryan and ties them up over a pit of Lava. Steve comes in and defeats the villian. He has a simple crane mechanism which he can use to rescue the two people dangling over the lava. He and Brian don't get on very well, though, so Steve gets Claire down and runs off to safety with just her.

Who, then, is responsible for Brian's death when his rope breaks under strain and he falls into the lava?

Sin is nothing but selfishness While following God is not. One should not do good, or follow Jesus just for heaven, it should be for the love of God only. You or I make the choice to reject God and sin. We do these things to put off our mortality instead of accepting the medicine to death which is Christ. I hope you dont mean these things.
What reason, other than selfishness, do you have for seeking a medicine for death? I am not so insecure in my life as to fear death. When it comes for me, it comes, and I will accept that. Without death, my own selfish desires would drive me insane in powerlust, just as it did the one you call Lucifer. Heaven is, regardless of its validity, an appeal to encourage the very self-preserving nature of mankind that created the object of its vilification.

Yes, following Jesus should be for a love of God only. In that respect, heaven is a sidetrack. A red herring. A decoy. And yet it survives within the church because, ultimately, it appeals to your sense of self-preservation. Your desire to increase your grasp on existence. Your selfishness. Your Sin.

That is why I feel that heaven should be thrown away. It is little more than an appeasement of man's sinful nature.

In fact, this has me wondering. Why would the destruction of the idea of heaven even be a problem to you? You would go on following Jesus and Living Justly, Loving kindness and walking humbly with God, yes?

Grave_n_idle:

You can see things however you want to....I never ONCE told you that you had to believe what I believe....


I didn't say you did.... is this a reply to something I DID say?


and if someone takes offense to something I post, then so be it! The gospel IS offensive!!! I will never "sell out" my beliefs and MY God out of fear of offending someone!


I didn't say you should. I merely pointed out how your alleged apology for the insensitivity of Christians, could come across as a little less... well, insensitive.


I never said that I was perfect, or that I have all the answers (I don't think any of us do).....but I do believe that all Christians are CALLED to spread the Gospel...


I didn't say you did. Wow... you're arguing against a lot of points I didn't make...


Because I am Christian you have made some very BIG assumptions about what I believe about God.....the only things that I have stated about my beliefs are that a) I believe that Christians are called to share the love of Christ with others, b) that one needs to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior in order to be forgiven and saved by grace, and c) We all fall short of the glory of God. Everything else you have just assumed.


I have made no assumptions. Except, maybe, that you accept a somewhat literal version of the crucifixion story.


And just because I go to church, doesn't mean that I don't have a very personal relationship with God...in fact, I find the politics in churches to be awful and disgusting...I go to church to worship God, for the fellowship of fellow Christians, the support system, and the growth in God's Word. One of the reasons that I know that I am meant to go into ministry is that I know that I am called to "battle" the political crap that goes on in many churches today.


I agree.


I don't wish to argue back and forth with you...it's like throwing sand at each other in the playground...and it doesn't prove anything.

I gave advice. You argued.

BackwoodsSquatches:

What you say about humans being judgemental regardless of religion is so true!! And I thank you for not lumping me into any category....and I, too, don't think we are that different from each other! Even though we see certain things very differently, I would not hesitate to call you a friend and a fun person to chat with, as well!! More than anything, I want you to know that I still have much respect for you because you have never judged me for having the beliefs that I do, even though you don't agree with them!! I just wanted you to know that! Just because two people see the world differently, doesn't mean that they have to be at each other's throats! :) Anytime that you want to chat about anything (not just religion)....just let me know...because I like talking with you!! :)

I dont belive my reading to be shallow at all. While I tend to have a more literal outlook on scripture The Catholic church has never defined if the serpent is literal or not. That being said the world was perfect, man succumed to the devil. You have to understand that this was so heineous because their nature was not wounded like ours. they could have easily passed the "test" and lived in paradise, but pride and jealousy overcame them. they wished to be like God and therefore suffered the consequences of their actions, just as you and I will.

What? Do you not think freewill is in accord with perfection? Should we be automatrons? doing nothing of our own will? Satan had free will, and he rejected God. Man also chose that path. Thankfully, God gave us his son for our salvation, by his glorious sacrifice to atone for our sins and appease the wrath of god. By accepting Christ and being baptised into his church you too can partake of eternal life.

I care nothing for the 'free-will' argument, except that I think it an unlikely pairing with the supposed omniscience of 'god'. As far as I'm concerned, we all have free-will, but it has nothing to do with any spiritual event... it's just a good survival characteristic for large mammals.

How could 'adam and Chavvah have passed the test? They were presented with temptation (a device to make them more like their creator), and NO logic with which to believe that it was bad... since (not knowing the difference between good and evil, yet) they couldn't have conceptualised being 'bad'.

In fact, since they had no conception of mortality, they wouldn't even understand the threat implicit in the 'you shall die' thing.

Add to this, 'god' allows a lying serpent, who ALREADY understands good and evil (which makes him 'like god', no?) which he CHOOSES not to inform the naked halfwits about.

They have no way to understand 'lying'... they know of no other sentient entity than their 'father'... so have NO reason to believe the snake to be a malign influence. Also - even if they HAD heard of lying... they have no concept of good or evil, so they wouldn't know it was 'bad'.

So - 'god' stacked the deck. He set it up so our vegetarian dummies had no choice but to fail.

So much for free will.

Grave_n_idle:

LOL....Don't ever change, kay? Your posts just make my day!! And they challenge me, which I like....but it still doesn't mean that I have to agree with you. God bless and have fun!! :)

While this is a point with which, on an earthly level, I would agree to some extent, my point was the suffering in the Afterlife. Hell. Non-heaven. That can in no way be said to be a product of Man.

And as for whether or not "God" (( Note that I use "God" whenever I want to refer to the Christian description and attributation of God as opposed to God in whatever form he takes )) is responsible for this, I want to use, again, an analogy. Some evil supervillian kidnaps Claire and Bryan and ties them up over a pit of Lava. Steve comes in and defeats the villian. He has a simple crane mechanism which he can use to rescue the two people dangling over the lava. He and Brian don't get on very well, though, so Steve gets Claire down and runs off to safety with just her.

Who, then, is responsible for Brian's death when his rope breaks under strain and he falls into the lava?


What reason, other than selfishness, do you have for seeking a medicine for death? I am not so insecure in my life as to fear death. When it comes for me, it comes, and I will accept that. Without death, my own selfish desires would drive me insane in powerlust, just as it did the one you call Lucifer. Heaven is, regardless of its validity, an appeal to encourage the very self-preserving nature of mankind that created the object of its vilification.

Yes, following Jesus should be for a love of God only. In that respect, heaven is a sidetrack. A red herring. A decoy. And yet it survives within the church because, ultimately, it appeals to your sense of self-preservation. Your desire to increase your grasp on existence. Your selfishness. Your Sin.

That is why I feel that heaven should be thrown away. It is little more than an appeasement of man's sinful nature.

In fact, this has me wondering. Why would the destruction of the idea of heaven even be a problem to you? You would go on following Jesus and Living Justly, Loving kindness and walking humbly with God, yes?

First off thank you for being reasonable and charitable in our discussion. Now God created us(in his image), gave us life, made us sheppards of the earth. we owe him everything without him we could not even take one breath. there is nothing selfish in wanting to serve god. The medicine I seek is to rid myself of selfish desires. one is only truly free when they desire only God in everything they do, so naturaly me wanting to spend eternity with my father is not selfish. If your children wanted to show you love and respect for all you have given them is this selfish? I also do not fear death (of the body) it is my eternal I am worried about. Again it is not about self preservation but about God. heaven is the ultimate "love" of God not simply a reward for being good. I also dont believe man has a sin nature, only a wounded nature. man is not totally depraved, that is why when he is moved by grace he can freely accept Gods call.

IF in your analogy Christ is Steve and the devil is the villian then you have it all wrong. We put ouselves over the lava pit Christ offers us a rope, its up to you to accept the rope. God does not force anyone to sin or reject him.

I care nothing for the 'free-will' argument, except that I think it an unlikely pairing with the supposed omniscience of 'god'. As far as I'm concerned, we all have free-will, but it has nothing to do with any spiritual event... it's just a good survival characteristic for large mammals.

How could 'adam and Chavvah have passed the test? They were presented with temptation (a device to make them more like their creator), and NO logic with which to believe that it was bad... since (not knowing the difference between good and evil, yet) they couldn't have conceptualised being 'bad'.

In fact, since they had no conception of mortality, they wouldn't even understand the threat implicit in the 'you shall die' thing.

Add to this, 'god' allows a lying serpent, who ALREADY understands good and evil (which makes him 'like god', no?) which he CHOOSES not to inform the naked halfwits about.

They have no way to understand 'lying'... they know of no other sentient entity than their 'father'... so have NO reason to believe the snake to be a malign influence. Also - even if they HAD heard of lying... they have no concept of good or evil, so they wouldn't know it was 'bad'.

So - 'god' stacked the deck. He set it up so our vegetarian dummies had no choice but to fail.

So much for free will.

You assume much that is not in scripture. There are no verses declaring they had no logic. They were made in the Image of God almighty im sure they had logic. Even if my child had never been burned and I say dont touch the stove it will burn you, when they touch it they are still burnt. They should have trusted God. He gave them a choice, Trust him the One who gave them life and everyhing or choose to follow satan. The main point is that inspite of their rejection he still gave man a chance to reunite with him. First through the jewish laws and now through Christ. everyone is still free to choose. I hope no one goes to hell, because that would give victory to satan, but ultimatly it our choice to die in a state of grace or not.

Yet again a christian who started out so well with their sentiments but then falls so short of the mark. Perhaps people are calling you a hypocrite because that is what you are being. You had the perfect opportunity to send out the word of ypur god to people and then turn the other cheek to peoples attacks. You choose to defend yourself & your god. Your god does not want you to do that. The meek shall inherit the earth & your replies make you no more meek then the atheist you are fighting with.

Now tell me why does it take a pagan to point that out to you?

Botswombata:

You can choose to see whatever you wish to see in my posts.....God bless you! :) Hey, I have a friend who is Pagan...in fact she is getting married very soon....but she hasn't found someone that will do a hand-fasting for them...it's too bad, because I really wanted to see her have that as part of her ceremony, since I know that it is one thing that was always so important to her! Anyway, that was really off-topic, but you mentioning that you were Pagan just reminded me of her. She has been my best friend since we were 4 years old!! :)

Botswombata:

You can choose to see whatever you wish to see in my posts.....God bless you! :) Hey, I have a friend who is Pagan...in fact she is getting married very soon....but she hasn't found someone that will do a hand-fasting for them...it's too bad, because I really wanted to see her have that as part of her ceremony, since I know that it is one thing that was always so important to her! Anyway, that was really off-topic, but you mentioning that you were Pagan just reminded me of her. She has been my best friend since we were 4 years old!! :)
What part of the world are they in. I may be able to hook them up with someone to do the ceremony.

Botswombata:

Unfortunately, my friend's family is very conservative, so they have to keep the Pagan rituals to a very minimum...so they are getting a Justice-of-the-Peace to perform the ceremony, which is why they can't have the hand-fasting....I tell you sometimes the politics of a wedding is insane!! :) But she seems to be happy with how everything is planned so far....I just wish the very best for her, you know?

Botswombata:

Unfortunately, my friend's family is very conservative, so they have to keep the Pagan rituals to a very minimum...so they are getting a Justice-of-the-Peace to perform the ceremony, which is why they can't have the hand-fasting....I tell you sometimes the politics of a wedding is insane!! :) But she seems to be happy with how everything is planned so far....I just wish the very best for her, you know?

They can alway have 2 cermonies. That is what my wife & I had. I understand the politics involved. My parents are catholics & my wifes parents are Lutheran. You would actually be suprised at how many "acceptable" wedding traditions have pagan origins. For example instead of a unity candle. Some friends of mine mixed black & white sand together in their cermony. People though it was really classy & had no idea where it came from.

Botswombata:

Cool, those are very good ideas! I will have to suggest them to her! Thanks!! I especially like the sand idea...and I think that she would like it, too! I don't know if they can afford 2 ceremonies (two kids and one on the way), but I will totally ask her if she has thought about that option. You ROCK!! :)

First off thank you for being reasonable and charitable in our discussion.
No problem; thank you for entertaining my ideas. By and large, I think you guys have most of it right anyway. There're just a few little bits which I feel are discrepancies in your teachings.

Now God created us(in his image), gave us life, made us sheppards of the earth. we owe him everything without him we could not even take one breath. there is nothing selfish in wanting to serve god. The medicine I seek is to rid myself of selfish desires. one is only truly free when they desire only God in everything they do, so naturaly me wanting to spend eternity with my father is not selfish. If your children wanted to show you love and respect for all you have given them is this selfish?
No, not at all. It would be considered selfish, though, if the children only showed you love and respect because there was an expectation of getting pocket money every Saturday. It could also be seen as encouraging such an idea of selfishness if every time the child talks to the father, the idea of pocket money is brought up. If the entire relationship is brought up around gifts, the child will demand and the parent will give, neither of them really getting what matters: A Relationship.

As for God as your medicine for a Selfish mindset, I have no qualm with that whatsoever. ^_^

I also do not fear death (of the body) it is my eternal I am worried about. Again it is not about self preservation but about God. heaven is the ultimate "love" of God not simply a reward for being good.
That was the point I was trying to make. The Kingdom of God is fellowship with God, not some place where you go to prolong your own lifespan. However, I think your emphasis on the eternal still cloaks a sense of desire for extension of your existence.

My argument is that we can reach the Kingdom of God while in the realms of mortality; not in a premptive sense but in an actual fulfilment. The eternal doesn't matter. When God is with us, we can accept the liklihood of both death and Eternal death, shrug them off and go on living his life and ideals.

Making an eternal realm after death, however, detracts from our desire to get to know God and instead shifts the focus to a desire for the things he offers us. It's like pocket-money-factory parentage.

And I'd still like to know what it is about Heaven that you feel is essential to your beliefs. Isn't being with God, loving him, serving him in sincerety and doing his will on earth enough?

I also dont believe man has a sin nature, only a wounded nature. man is not totally depraved, that is why when he is moved by grace he can freely accept Gods call.
I, believe it or not, disagree. Innate within most humans is a desire for self fulfilment, just as it is within all life forms. If sin is the acting on your own desires at the expense of others, then by and large everything in the world shows a tendency for Sin. The difference is that Humans can see their natural selfishness through Consciousness of Self, which was the "Apple" in the Eden parable. The apple was not the cause of a fall in man's nature; rather, it was a separation from taking sinfulness for granted.

IF in your analogy Christ is Steve and the devil is the villian then you have it all wrong. We put ouselves over the lava pit Christ offers us a rope, its up to you to accept the rope. God does not force anyone to sin or reject him.
Numero Uno, it's not possible to in any way conceive man hanging himself over the lava. If, as claimed, man is sinful in nature, it's more like he was always up there and stays up there until he either falls or is rescued; you could use the analogy then minus the villian. If the Devil is responsible for hanging us up there, then my analogy stands. If Steve hung them up there himself then he's one sick puppy, but let's ignore that possibility for now.

The reason I used a crane mechanism is pretty simple. Steve has a mechanism by which he could get both Claire and Bryan down regardless of their own wishes and would be entirely justified in doing so. And yet he doesn't. Whether it is because Steve and Brian don't get on well, whether it is because Brian doesn't want down, wants to rescue himself or whatever; Steve has the power to save him anyway, and it would be callous for him not to.

Let me throw another one past you. A Husband and Wife are trying to escape from their house that has suddenly burst into flames. The Wife, however, stops suddenly and says that she doesn't want to leave. What does the husband do? If he is unsuccessful in persuading her to come, he isn't going to say "Okay, I respect your decision". Such a statement would be an unloving one to make. No, he's going to grab her and run with her. Her right of choice is of secondary issue to the inevitable result of such a choice.

When "God" has the power to save everyone and doesn't, even if they ask him not to, he can be held in part responsible for those who are not rescued. So no. I don't want to Not Care about those who have gone into the pit, because firstly they were fellow human beings regardless of their faults, and secondly because "God" has played some part in their destruction in not rescuing them when he had the chance.

Furthermore, if Steve does indeed not let Brian down out of Choice, I think it is Claire's moral duty to refuse to leave with Steve until he does so.

To Grave_n_idle and Everybody:

I feel that I need to clarify why I brought up the whole Pascal's Wager thing. You see, in response to my original post, Grave_n_idle posted this:

I appreciate your sentiments... but you really don't see it...
Think about it this way:
"I really hope that one day, you wise up and realise that you've wasted your life on a fairystory"...
See what I mean? Good sentiments... but you need to think it through a little more fully, or relinquish the chance to preach.

I took Grave_n_idle's comments to mean that he thought that I was trying to convert people to Christianity, when that was not what my objective was at all. My objective was to simply apologise to anyone who has ever been judged/condemned by someone who is Christian and to show Christians that Jesus didn't teach His people to condemn/judge others. Am I perfect? HELL NO!! Am I guilty of not living up to Jesus' expectations....YES, there are many times where this is the case....thus, the reason for my original post.

So, back to the whole Pascal's Wager thing. Here is how I had hoped the conversation would go (roughly).....Keep in mind that I felt that Grave_n_idle was accusing me of trying to convert people to Christianity.

ME: What will happen to those who are un-believers in Christianity, if it turns out that it is all true and not a "fairytale"? (originally I used the term "God" instead of Christianity...silly me, I thought that since we were talking about Christianity that it was obvious I was referring to Christianity...but Grave_n_idle pounced on me for it, so I re-worded my question for him)

Grave_n_idle: Well, if Christianity were true (no matter how misguided I think Christianity truly is, I will play your game for now) according to Christian beliefs, anyone who doesn't accept Jesus Christ as their Savior would not go to heaven.

ME: Then, Grave_n_idle, since you understand what Christian's believe about the fate of someone who doesn't accept Jesus as their Savior....you will also understand why I felt the need to write my original post. You see, it saddens me that so many people have been judged/condemned by Christians because that is NOT how Jesus taught His people to act. It would break my heart to learn that the ONLY reason why someone had decided to not accept Christ as their Savior was that their only encounters with Christians had been negative. So, you see, I am not trying to convert anyone....it was just intended to be an "olive branch".

But that is not how the conversation went. Instead of Grave_n_idle answering the question directly, he thought that I was trying to make some sort of "become Christian and then you will be covered either way!!" argument, so he pursued that line of thinking in his responses, but that argument was never my intention. I'm not an idiot, I know that Pascal's Wager is illogical....since you can't force yourself to believe in something that you simply don't believe in! Grave_n_idle never did answer the question, "What will happen to those who are un-believers in Christianity, if it turns out that it is all true and not a "fairytale"?" The question was worded to hypothetically assume that Christianity WAS true, therefore the answer HAD to be based on Christian beliefs. So then it became a vicious circle of people insisting that he had answered the question and me saying that he hadn't. And that pretty much brings me to this point.

I hope that I have finally clarified where I was coming from and what my intentions were and still are. Maybe I should've used another way to make my point...but hindsight is always 20-20....how was I to know that all of you would pounce on Pascal's Wager like lions at feeding time!!?? Anyway, I have explained this the best way that I know how and I just hope that now all of you understand what my intentions were. :)

Grave_n_idle:

LOL....Don't ever change, kay? Your posts just make my day!! And they challenge me, which I like....but it still doesn't mean that I have to agree with you. God bless and have fun!! :)

Is this a good thing?

I'd hate it if people agreed all the time, anyway... I don't think people learn NEARLY as much from agreement, as they do from conflict.

And, if you find my Edenic views intriguing, it's a shame you missed our debate on Paul: Satan or Saint. :D

You assume much that is not in scripture. There are no verses declaring they had no logic. They were made in the Image of God almighty im sure they had logic. Even if my child had never been burned and I say dont touch the stove it will burn you, when they touch it they are still burnt. They should have trusted God. He gave them a choice, Trust him the One who gave them life and everyhing or choose to follow satan. The main point is that inspite of their rejection he still gave man a chance to reunite with him. First through the jewish laws and now through Christ. everyone is still free to choose. I hope no one goes to hell, because that would give victory to satan, but ultimatly it our choice to die in a state of grace or not.

Wrong, friend... I assume nothing (about scripture) that is not in scripture. In fact, of the two of us here, the one making claims that have no support, is you, my friend.

I have no reason to argue about logic... it wasn't in my original post... but you make an assumption there. You say "They were made in the Image of God almighty im sure they had logic"... but that doesn't follow, does it? Adam was not created omnipotent, nor omnipresent, for example. You cannot just 'assume' that everything that is true for 'god' MUST be true for Adam.

So - aside from the fact that logic is IRRELEVENT to the points I made (I argued they lacked KNOWLEDGE and EXPERIENCE... not logic) - you make unsupportable assumptions.

Looking at your stove example... Imagine that 'god' is your father. Imagine you never met your 'mother' (if you had one), and the subject has never come up. Bear in mind, you are still innocent at this point... so you might not even have questioned the need for a mother...

Okay - Father comes in, and says "Here are some plums, and an apple... you can eat any of the plums, but if you eat the apple, I'll kill you".

Okay - in comes 'mother'... at least, that's who she says she is. SHE says, "Actually, it's okay to eat the apple, you'll be fine".

Now, bear in mind, our 'children' in the Genesis story have NEVER encountered lying. Also - they have never had the 'mother' concept explained to them, or been shown what 'mother' looks like.

Also - remember that, as a child, you have no experiences to base your decision on. All you DO know is that 'dad' said no, and 'mom' said yes.

In that example, is it FAIR for your father to come in and beat your mother half to death, before executing you and your brother/sister?

Botswombata:

Cool, those are very good ideas! I will have to suggest them to her! Thanks!! I especially like the sand idea...and I think that she would like it, too! I don't know if they can afford 2 ceremonies (two kids and one on the way), but I will totally ask her if she has thought about that option. You ROCK!! :)

Just as a thought - the handfasting could be an informal ceremony, with just a select few guests, perhaps? And - since it is informal, and the significance to your friend is the important element, you might not require the additional 'authority figure' to perform the 'ceremony'?

Which sort of 'pagan' is this friend? If Native American, I'm not sure, but Wiccan traditions might allow 'solitary' practitioners to perform their own handfasting ceremony...

I took Grave_n_idle's comments to mean that he thought that I was trying to convert people to Christianity, when that was not what my objective was at all.


No, my friend... read my post again... the part I discussed was your 'closing argument'... I said the rest was fine. You just run the risk of a 'holier-than-thou' response, with a closing sentiment like that.


But that is not how the conversation went. Instead of Grave_n_idle answering the question directly, he thought that I was trying to make some sort of "become Christian and then you will be covered either way!!" argument, so he pursued that line of thinking in his responses...


Actually - my reference to Pascal's Wager was LESS about 'becoming Christian, and thus being covered either way', and MORE about the fact that Pascal's Wager doesn't work in a world with more than one POSSIBLE god.


Grave_n_idle never did answer the question, "What will happen to those who are un-believers in Christianity, if it turns out that it is all true and not a "fairytale"?" The question was worded to hypothetically assume that Christianity WAS true, therefore the answer HAD to be based on Christian beliefs. So then it became a vicious circle of people insisting that he had answered the question and me saying that he hadn't. And that pretty much brings me to this point.


Actually - I DID answer the question... and AT LEAST ONE other poster noticed it, and reposted it!

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9447543&postcount=85

"But - assuming that the Bible is true, and that the 'God' it describes is real... the Atheist or worshipper of other gods has nothing to fear. Revelation is quite clear on this".

Grave_n_idle:

My post was simply an effort to explain how I ORIGINALLY read your response and what my reaction was. I NEVER said that what I THOUGHT you meant is, in fact, WHAT you meant, only that is how I TOOK it...My explanation wasn't even arguing with you about ANYTHING, in fact, I was just trying to mend some fences. But, I guess you will find fault in anything that I write to you, no matter how benevolently I try to word my views...since my last post wasn't even an argument refuting anything that you have ever said.

And for the record, you DO know that, according to a Christian and THEIR beliefs, anyone who does not believe that Jesus Christ will NOT go to heaven...so your "answer" to the question was not based on the hypothetical assumption that the fundamental thoughts/doctrine/theology of Christianity were true. That is why I didn't take that answer as an answer to MY question, since you didn't ANSWER my question. It was based on YOUR interpretation on what the Bible teaches and the question wasn't asking what YOU thought would happen to anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus. If I had meant that, then I would've asked, "If Christianity were true, then what do YOU think would happen to all of those who don't believe." See the difference?

And my last statement of my original post was only meant to mean that I hope every non-believer will someday meet one Christian who actually follows Christ's teachings so that they understand what Christianity is really about, and don't judge Christianity based on an awful example. In your orginal post you never mentioned specifically which part of my post that you were having issues with....you only said,

""I really hope that one day, you wise up and realise that you've wasted your life on a fairystory"...See what I mean? Good sentiments... but you need to think it through a little more fully, or relinquish the chance to preach."

So you see, I thought that you were saying that I was saying,"I really hope that one day all of you will realize how you've wasted your life on science and living for yourself, when there is a God who loves you very much and you will go to hell if you don't accept that."...which is NOT what I was saying at all. And I took your comments to mean that you thought that I was trying to convert people because I felt that otherwise they were hell bound, which I wasn't. And if that is not what you meant by that post, then I'm sorry for reading it that way...but then why didn't you state EXACTLY what part of my original post you were having issues with...like you just did in your last post to me? If you had do that, I would've explained what I meant by it and this whole arguement wouldn't have happened.

As far as your question about my Pagan friend....the closest thing to describe her beliefs would be Wiccan, but she prefers to be called Pagan...as she feels that Wiccans a) tend to be too fluffly (her words, not mine) and b) she finds that Wiccans concentrate on the Goddess too much and forget about God....she believes in the balance of male/female.

I hope that this further clears up my explanation! :)

Wrong, friend... I assume nothing (about scripture) that is not in scripture. In fact, of the two of us here, the one making claims that have no support, is you, my friend.

I have no reason to argue about logic... it wasn't in my original post... but you make an assumption there. You say "They were made in the Image of God almighty im sure they had logic"... but that doesn't follow, does it? Adam was not created omnipotent, nor omnipresent, for example. You cannot just 'assume' that everything that is true for 'god' MUST be true for Adam.

So - aside from the fact that logic is IRRELEVENT to the points I made (I argued they lacked KNOWLEDGE and EXPERIENCE... not logic) - you make unsupportable assumptions.

Looking at your stove example... Imagine that 'god' is your father. Imagine you never met your 'mother' (if you had one), and the subject has never come up. Bear in mind, you are still innocent at this point... so you might not even have questioned the need for a mother...

Okay - Father comes in, and says "Here are some plums, and an apple... you can eat any of the plums, but if you eat the apple, I'll kill you".

Okay - in comes 'mother'... at least, that's who she says she is. SHE says, "Actually, it's okay to eat the apple, you'll be fine".

Now, bear in mind, our 'children' in the Genesis story have NEVER encountered lying. Also - they have never had the 'mother' concept explained to them, or been shown what 'mother' looks like.

Also - remember that, as a child, you have no experiences to base your decision on. All you DO know is that 'dad' said no, and 'mom' said yes.

In that example, is it FAIR for your father to come in and beat your mother half to death, before executing you and your brother/sister?


Ok. If your argument is about knowledge you are still making assumptions. Why would God tell them they would die if they could not comprehend it? How do they have the knowledge to keep up the garden, and take care of the animals. how does eve understand what wisdom is (gen 3:6)? the assumptions you make are akin to those that Protestants have with scripture, they project their beliefs into a verse and then claim victory. There are plenty of things one can extract from scripture that is not directly implied. you imply that adam and eve were nearly mentally retarded. I disagree I think had knowledge what death was they obviously knew what wisdom was. There also was no other being guiding them. they knew God created them Why should they go against his commands.

you have to understand that God created to have a uniqe relationship with him Adam and Eve knew this they understood what God wanted and threw it away. In spite of all our arguing the point is moot. God has given us christ as way to reestablish that relationship. It is an open gift, and the only way I Know for sure can get me to the beatific vision where I am in constant communion with God for all eternity.

Just for the record - I also was just explaining.. not arguing. I was just reiterating that my ONLY concern with your original post, was that it was going to offend the very individuals you were perhaps trying to appeal to.

Not an argument... actually more of what you term fence-building.


And for the record, you DO know that, according to a Christian and THEIR beliefs, anyone who does not believe that Jesus Christ will NOT go to heaven...so your "answer" to the question was not based on the hypothetical assumption that the fundamental thoughts/doctrine/theology of Christianity were true.

I dispute what you say here... I have been a Christian, and I have known (and still know) MANY Christians that believe in certain amount of 'leeway' over the possibilities of after-life activity.

I also know that we have no first-hand witness testimony, so everything MUST be a matter of faith, and/or interpretation of scripture.

I do have reason to believe something quite opposite to what you've stated, and it is scriptural.

The first part is the fact that 144,000 will be marked with the 'seal' at the end of this 'age'. Those 144,000 are VERY specific... we know their racial history, we know their sexual status, we even know that they are honest.

"And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads… And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:… And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth…. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb…. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

The second part is the deaths of many of those who had not converted already... those who experience the tribulations of the coming end-times. For example:

"And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven..."

The thing I notice about that passage, is that it shows CONVERSION, even during tribulation. Even as the non-believers are destroyed, the remainder (some) 'give glory'.

The third part of my thought, is the resurrection of the dead - which must include those 'sinners':

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years… But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection…. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years..."

The 'rest of the dead lived not for again until the thousand years were finished'... means they DID live again, AFTER a thousand years.

The Fourth part of my reasoning - is the baptism in blood, of those who converted DURING this last time of tribulation. It seems that the non-believers will finally be given evidence, at which point they can truly CHOOSE to believe:

"And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

The fifth, and final, point of my thought-process, is the simple assertion that ALL those not ALREADY SAVED, WILL be raised up - and judged entirely on whether or not they were 'good' to others, effectively.

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works..."



So, you see, it seems fairly evident to me that ALL will be accounted at the coming of the end... and even the non-believers are given 'appeal', AND a chance to convert in the face of god.

Perhaps you see it a different way, but I see no reason NOT to come to the very conclusions I have outlined.

Just for the record - I also was just explaining.. not arguing. I was just reiterating that my ONLY concern with your original post, was that it was going to offend the very individuals you were perhaps trying to appeal to.

Not an argument... actually more of what you term fence-building.



I dispute what you say here... I have been a Christian, and I have known (and still know) MANY Christians that believe in certain amount of 'leeway' over the possibilities of after-life activity.

I also know that we have no first-hand witness testimony, so everything MUST be a matter of faith, and/or interpretation of scripture.

I do have reason to believe something quite opposite to what you've stated, and it is scriptural.

The first part is the fact that 144,000 will be marked with the 'seal' at the end of this 'age'. Those 144,000 are VERY specific... we know their racial history, we know their sexual status, we even know that they are honest.



The second part is the deaths of many of those who had not converted already... those who experience the tribulations of the coming end-times. For example:



The thing I notice about that passage, is that it shows CONVERSION, even during tribulation. Even as the non-believers are destroyed, the remainder (some) 'give glory'.

The third part of my thought, is the resurrection of the dead - which must include those 'sinners':



The 'rest of the dead lived not for again until the thousand years were finished'... means they DID live again, AFTER a thousand years.

The Fourth part of my reasoning - is the baptism in blood, of those who converted DURING this last time of tribulation. It seems that the non-believers will finally be given evidence, at which point they can truly CHOOSE to believe:



The fifth, and final, point of my thought-process, is the simple assertion that ALL those not ALREADY SAVED, WILL be raised up - and judged entirely on whether or not they were 'good' to others, effectively.





So, you see, it seems fairly evident to me that ALL will be accounted at the coming of the end... and even the non-believers are given 'appeal', AND a chance to convert in the face of god.

Perhaps you see it a different way, but I see no reason NOT to come to the very conclusions I have outlined.

Are you an ex catholic? Im just wondering because of some of your thoughts. Baptism of blood is a Catholic term used those who die for the faith but have not lyet been baptised.

I also think if you look a little closer you will see evidence of a two judgemnt system. You are judged at you death, and either go to hell heaven or purgatory. the second judgment is a public judgment in no way are those who were condemned allowed into heaven. If this is not what you were implying sorry.

I must admit form a conservitve catholic point of view I too have a problem with woodsprites assertion that Christian docterine teaches ONLY those who believe in Christ will go to heaven. We have no idea how many people labor under invincible ingnorance (those who are not culpable or dont willingly stay in ignorance of Christ), Although it is only through christ his mercy and church they will gain entrance to the heavenly kingdom.

Grave_n_idle:

My post was simply an effort to explain how I ORIGINALLY read your response and what my reaction was. I NEVER said that what I THOUGHT you meant is, in fact, WHAT you meant, only that is how I TOOK it...My explanation wasn't even arguing with you about ANYTHING, in fact, I was just trying to mend some fences. But, I guess you will find fault in anything that I write to you, no matter how benevolently I try to word my views...since my last post wasn't even an argument refuting anything that you have ever said.

And for the record, you DO know that, according to a Christian and THEIR beliefs, anyone who does not believe that Jesus Christ will NOT go to heaven...so your "answer" to the question was not based on the hypothetical assumption that the fundamental thoughts/doctrine/theology of Christianity were true. That is why I didn't take that answer as an answer to MY question, since you didn't ANSWER my question. It was based on YOUR interpretation on what the Bible teaches and the question wasn't asking what YOU thought would happen to anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus. If I had meant that, then I would've asked, "If Christianity were true, then what do YOU think would happen to all of those who don't believe." See the difference?

And my last statement of my original post was only meant to mean that I hope every non-believer will someday meet one Christian who actually follows Christ's teachings so that they understand what Christianity is really about, and don't judge Christianity based on an awful example. In your orginal post you never mentioned specifically which part of my post that you were having issues with....you only said,

""I really hope that one day, you wise up and realise that you've wasted your life on a fairystory"...See what I mean? Good sentiments... but you need to think it through a little more fully, or relinquish the chance to preach."

So you see, I thought that you were saying that I was saying,"I really hope that one day all of you will realize how you've wasted your life on science and living for yourself, when there is a God who loves you very much and you will go to hell if you don't accept that."...which is NOT what I was saying at all. And I took your comments to mean that you thought that I was trying to convert people because I felt that otherwise they were hell bound, which I wasn't. And if that is not what you meant by that post, then I'm sorry for reading it that way...but then why didn't you state EXACTLY what part of my original post you were having issues with...like you just did in your last post to me? If you had do that, I would've explained what I meant by it and this whole arguement wouldn't have happened.

As far as your question about my Pagan friend....the closest thing to describe her beliefs would be Wiccan, but she prefers to be called Pagan...as she feels that Wiccans a) tend to be too fluffly (her words, not mine) and b) she finds that Wiccans concentrate on the Goddess too much and forget about God....she believes in the balance of male/female.

I hope that this further clears up my explanation! :)

For the record I admire and somewhat agree with what saying. I just disagree with some of your theology. we should all be walking reflections of christ, even though we will fail in some manner. .

Grave_n_idle:

I do see it another way because we don't know if the tribulation/end times will happen in any of our lifetimes. I do see a great number of people being converted when the prophesies of Revelation do start to come true regarding the end times...but there are many people that may live and die before this world ever sees that come about. And according to Christian theology (not what individual Christians may believe, but what fundamental Christian churches/biblical scholars teach), those people who don't live long enough to see the end times happen (where they may then be converted and choose to believe) need to accept Jesus as their Savior BEFORE they die, or they will not go to Heaven. And as far as Revelation 20:12 goes, fundamentalists believe that this passage is referring to good deeds being the fruit of faith, which coorelates to Ephesians 2:8-10. So anyone who does not have faith in Christ is not saved because their good deeds would not be the fruit of faith.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Eph. 2:8-10

As far as Revelation 20:4-6, notice that is says, "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years..."

....So anyone who takes part in this first resurrection (the believers in Christ) will not be affected by the second death, which is the eternal death of unbelievers and damnation in hell. You see, in Revelation, the living and reigning of Christ is called "the first resurrection" of believers. The second resurrection is the bodily resurrection which will take place on the last day. Then the first death is physical death, and the "second death" is eternal damnation in hell, which has no power over believers in Christ. The 1000 years represent a complete period of time whose length is firmly fixed by God -it is the entire New Testament period...beginning with Jesus' vicarious atonement and Great Commission and ending with his second advent at the day of judgement. Apart from Rev. 20, the phrase "a thousand years" appears in only two other passages (Ps 90:4 and 2 Pe 3:8) and those passages speak only of the timelessness of God. No Scripture passage speaks of 1000 year reign "of" Christ. John did not see resurrected bodies, but the souls of those who had been beheaded reigning "with" Christ. According to Scripture, when believers die, they go to live with Christ in the glories of heaven. The souls never died, only the bodies died. John means that during the entire period of the 1000 years the souls of the believers, without interruption, lived and reigned with Christ. The meaning of verse 5 of Rev 20 is simply that while the believing dead will live during the 1000 years (enjoy the blessings of God), the unbelieving dead will not live during that time (will be in a state of separation from God's blessings). The "second death" is described in Rev. 20:11-15. Now, I realize that this is just my interpretation on those passages in Revelation, but I am familiar with other interpretations that the fundamental Christian churches teach and none of them see these passages the way that you do.

I didn't think that such a simple question would get SO twisted from it's original intentions. My question was not based on individual theologies or theories regarding Heaven...it was merely based on the assumption that Christianity is true based on what fundamental Christian churches teach and accept as truth. I was not for one moment suggesting that ALL people need to see the world the same way that I do...and I'm sorry if that is how you felt. As far as you trying to mend fences with me, your posts constantly pick apart anything that I write, so I do feel that it doesn't matter what I say because I feel that you will never understand that I'm not trying to convert anyone to believe the same things that I do. In fact, what you don't know about me is that I am fascinated by homeopathic and eastern healing and that I used to be a paranormal investigator as a hobby...those are two things that cause much controversy in Christianity....I constantly get this feeling that you are assuming much about what I believe and what I want others to believe when you really don't know much about my beliefs at all.

I have heard by many people that the reason that they don't believe in Christianity is that Christianity is full of hypocrites....and you know what, sometimes that is true. Christians are taught that Christ had an incredible amount of love for humanity (ALL humanity)...and yet His followers forget that we are called to be like Him....So I apologise for that....I apologise for any time that a Christian made you feel that you are not worthy of His grace...because us Christians are no more worthy than you are...in fact, as a believer, knowing that we are covered by the grace of God should make a Christian more humble and thankful...but it rarely does. Why?...because our own egos and self-importance get in the way. Every human being falls short of the grace of God....and yet everyone can have His grace....it's just about accepting Him into your heart and life and letting Him have His way with your heart. So I am sincerely sorry if you have ever felt judged as a non-believer. That is not what Christ taught His people. I'm sure that this post is making some Christians uncomfortable.....but let me ask those Christians....when was the last time that you got out of your comfort zone and related to those in your world that aren't considered moral people?....making friends with those people who are homeless, the prostitutes who sell their bodies for drugs, the neighbour that beats his wife, or even the unbeliever that just thinks that ALL Christians are judgemental hypocrites....It is so easy to judge others and to see what they are doing wrong...but how are you showing Jesus to the world? Anyway, my deepest apologies to all un-believers. It is my greatest prayer that you will encounter just ONE person that will show you exactly HOW MUCH Jesus loves the world by just loving you the same way. Please forgive me and God bless!! :)

I don't feel very inclined towards reading all the responses to this but I will say that if I knew you in RL I'd give you a big hug right now (assuming you were cool with that). It's good to know that there are others out there who think like me about non-Christians. It's a struggle to think that way, but it is what Christ taught and I commend you for speaking out. Thanks.

Axom:

I have not said anything about what MY beliefs are regarding the fate of those who don't accept Christ as their Savior....I have simply stated what fundamental Christian churches TEACH about their fate. I would hope that God would have mercy on those who have never heard the Gospel (but I have no Biblical basis to prove that hope on). The fact remains that there are MANY people who have heard the Gospel and simply REFUSE to believe it. Since the whole basis of my original post was talking to people who are familiar with Christians and Christianity, then it would make sense that I was referring to those who have flat out rejected Christian teachings. But thank you for the kind words regarding my intentions here....even though you don't agree with everything that I have said! :)

Squirrel Brothers:

Thanks for your kind words!....and don't worry, I'd hug you right back!! LOL :)

Axom:

I have not said anything about what MY beliefs are regarding the fate of those who don't accept Christ as their Savior....I have simply stated what fundamental Christian churches TEACH about their fate. I would hope that God would have mercy on those who have never heard the Gospel (but I have no Biblical basis to prove that hope on). The fact remains that there are MANY people who have heard the Gospel and simply REFUSE to believe it. Since the whole basis of my original post was talking to people who are familiar with Christians and Christianity, then it would make sense that I was referring to those who have flat out rejected Christian teachings. But thank you for the kind words regarding my intentions here....even though you don't agree with everything that I have said! :)

I agree no one can willfully reject christ or his church, and see the face of god in heaven. We must make sure though (as you have said )not to pass judgment of eternal damnation on any person. that is Gods job

Axsom:

I agree with you 100%!! In respect to non-believers and their eternal fate, I have only stated what Scripture states and how fundamental Christian churches interpret it. That is not judging/condemning, that is sharing what fundamental Christian churches teach about that subject.

Okay... now I'm confused... which way do you WANT IT, my friend?

You said I had to assume that your version of the whole god' thing was true, and tell you what I thought it meant for the non-believer.

And now you are telling me I'm 'wrong'?

If you didn't want MY opinion, why spend 10 pages asking about it?

The fact is - if all the 'great and small dead' are going to be raised again for a final judgement, it doesn't matter WHEN the end time comes, does it? But those who live through it, get the chance to convert IN THE FACE OF evidence.

Grave_n_idle:

I do see it another way because we don't know if the tribulation/end times will happen in any of our lifetimes. I do see a great number of people being converted when the prophesies of Revelation do start to come true regarding the end times...but there are many people that may live and die before this world ever sees that come about.


And they will still be judged, on their works. It's in the text.


And according to Christian theology (not what individual Christians may believe, but what fundamental Christian churches/biblical scholars teach), those people who don't live long enough to see the end times happen (where they may then be converted and choose to believe) need to accept Jesus as their Savior BEFORE they die, or they will not go to Heaven.


I care NOT A JOT what you claim 'fundamental Christian churches' teach. I have been to a number of 'Christian churches'... all, ostensibly, of the same faith... and have heard a hundred different versions of what 'the church' believes. And they ALL claim that ALL the others are wrong, and that THEY are the only people interpreting the bible correctly.

I think there are several occassions where 'the church' has got it totally wrong - but has become accustomed to that error. The 'serpent' of Eden is one such example... it is mythology, BASED ON the scripture.

The text is quite clear - those who don't survive until the end times are raised, ALL OF THEM, and judged on their works. There is NOTHING implicit in the text, about 'faith' or 'belief'.


And as far as Revelation 20:12 goes, fundamentalists believe that this passage is referring to good deeds being the fruit of faith, which coorelates to Ephesians 2:8-10. So anyone who does not have faith in Christ is not saved because their good deeds would not be the fruit of faith.


Revelation 20:12 COULD have said that men would be judged on faith. It doesn't. It makes a deliberate point of saying that ALL MEN (of which, one must assume, 'god' must know there will be SOME non-believers) will be judged. ANd the text specifies that they will be judged according to their WORKS.

Extrapolate what you will, but the text doesn't say anything about the 'great and small' beiong judged on faith.


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Eph. 2:8-10


Irrelevent. The judgement of Revelation is NOT "Salvation Through Grace". It is "Judgement".


As far as Revelation 20:4-6, notice that is says, "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years..."

....So anyone who takes part in this first resurrection (the believers in Christ) will not be affected by the second death, which is the eternal death of unbelievers and damnation in hell.

You see, in Revelation, the living and reigning of Christ is called "the first resurrection" of believers.


I call foul. That is not scriptural. Again, you cloud the issue with extrapolation... I do not accept your definition of 'the second death', or the 'first resurrection'.


The second resurrection is the bodily resurrection which will take place on the last day. Then the first death is physical death, and the "second death" is eternal damnation in hell, which has no power over believers in Christ.


Again - the same quibbles. You are putting your own meanings to those terms... and I see no reason to support them from scripture.


The 1000 years represent a complete period of time whose length is firmly fixed by God -it is the entire New Testament period...beginning with Jesus' vicarious atonement and Great Commission and ending with his second advent at the day of judgement.


Jesus died on the cross 2000 years ago... the 1000 years cannot be the time from death till the day of judgement... or we've already missed it, my friend.

And don't try that '1000 years means something else'... unless you can give GOOD reason WHY it shouldn't be 1000 years. I have similar problems with people trying to justify the 144,000.


Apart from Rev. 20, the phrase "a thousand years" appears in only two other passages (Ps 90:4 and 2 Pe 3:8) and those passages speak only of the timelessness of God. No Scripture passage speaks of 1000 year reign "of" Christ.

John did not see resurrected bodies, but the souls of those who had been beheaded reigning "with" Christ.


Ecclesiastes 6:6 "Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place"?

But also, notice that BOTH Psalms 90:4 and Second Peter 3:8 compare a thousand years to a day... no OTHER unit of measure.


According to Scripture, when believers die, they go to live with Christ in the glories of heaven.


One interpretation - and yet, there are those Christians who do not accept that. I wonder EXACTLY how you justify that belief, scripturally.


The souls never died, only the bodies died. John means that during the entire period of the 1000 years the souls of the believers, without interruption, lived and reigned with Christ. The meaning of verse 5 of Rev 20 is simply that while the believing dead will live during the 1000 years (enjoy the blessings of God), the unbelieving dead will not live during that time (will be in a state of separation from God's blessings). The "second death" is described in Rev. 20:11-15. Now, I realize that this is just my interpretation on those passages in Revelation, but I am familiar with other interpretations that the fundamental Christian churches teach and none of them see these passages the way that you do.


Yes - it IS just your interpretation. And, UNLESS you are a 'prophet', I fail to see how YOUR vision is any more reliable than mine.

Also - the 'soul' cannot live without the body.


I didn't think that such a simple question would get SO twisted from it's original intentions. My question was not based on individual theologies or theories regarding Heaven...it was merely based on the assumption that Christianity is true based on what fundamental Christian churches teach and accept as truth.


'Christianity' being true, is NOT THE SAME as 'what the church accepts'... UNLESS you claim that Tradition is MORE IMPORTANT than Scripture?


In fact, what you don't know about me is that I am fascinated by homeopathic and eastern healing and that I used to be a paranormal investigator as a hobby...those are two things that cause much controversy in Christianity....I constantly get this feeling that you are assuming much about what I believe and what I want others to believe when you really don't know much about my beliefs at all.

I make NO asumptions about what you believe... although I am glad that you are open-minded enough to investigate OTHER thoughts of 'truth'.

Axsom:

I agree with you 100%!! In respect to non-believers and their eternal fate, I have only stated what Scripture states and how fundamental Christian churches interpret it. That is not judging/condemning, that is sharing what fundamental Christian churches teach about that subject.

But, which is more important?

Individual inspiration, a personal relationship with god, and the GIFT of spiritual discernment...

OR:

Collective beliefs, an organised heirarchy of 'worth' based on rank, and the lessons of others?

As far as I'm concerned, Jesus answered THAT question.

Are you an ex catholic? Im just wondering because of some of your thoughts. Baptism of blood is a Catholic term used those who die for the faith but have not lyet been baptised.

I also think if you look a little closer you will see evidence of a two judgemnt system. You are judged at you death, and either go to hell heaven or purgatory. the second judgment is a public judgment in no way are those who were condemned allowed into heaven. If this is not what you were implying sorry.

I must admit form a conservitve catholic point of view I too have a problem with woodsprites assertion that Christian docterine teaches ONLY those who believe in Christ will go to heaven. We have no idea how many people labor under invincible ingnorance (those who are not culpable or dont willingly stay in ignorance of Christ), Although it is only through christ his mercy and church they will gain entrance to the heavenly kingdom.

I was raised in an Anglican AND Catholic environment. Now, I live in Protestant America.

My view of scripture is NOT coloured by ANY view of the faith... I am 'non-partisan'.

MY view of scripture is based ONLY on what I find in scripture... not the teachings of any one Christian faith.

As a firm Zoroastrian, I can say though I respect the later morals of the New Testament, I can say that I really don't see how I can bring myself to convert, I just cannot believe many of the doctrines of Christianity, due to logical fallacies, and because of several points of theology I really don't find any way to accept.

Wow, a lot of the responses to this thread are wonderful proof that "no good deed goes unpunished". Here is a person who made an observation that he/she and/or others of his religious beliefs may have alienated people who believed differently by appearing hypocritical or judgmental and making a sincere apology for these actions. And what response does he get? Attacks on his grammer, sentence structure and general writing ability along with some complaints that people were still offended.

Having been brought up in christian churches, and specifically being alienated by exactly these things, I truly appreciated this thread. I wish I had met someone like the thread instigater when I was younger and less jaded. :)

Oh and please, if I have made any spelling or grammatical errors in this reponse, feel free to post corrections. Just be aware that I will not be reading them as this is an open forum, not a composition class.

Wow, a lot of the responses to this thread are wonderful proof that "no good deed goes unpunished". Here is a person who made an observation that he/she and/or others of his religious beliefs may have alienated people who believed differently by appearing hypocritical or judgmental and making a sincere apology for these actions. And what response does he get? Attacks on his grammer, sentence structure and general writing ability along with some complaints that people were still offended.

Having been brought up in christian churches, and specifically being alienated by exactly these things, I truly appreciated this thread. I wish I had met someone like the thread instigater when I was younger and less jaded. :)

Oh and please, if I have made any spelling or grammatical errors in this reponse, feel free to post corrections. Just be aware that I will not be reading them as this is an open forum, not a composition class.

I think it is more a matter of 'I apologise for all the sins commited against you godless heathens, oh, by the way, you're alll going to die and burn in hell'... not being a well-received message...

I think it is more a matter of 'I apologise for all the sins commited against you godless heathens, oh, by the way, you're alll going to die and burn in hell'... not being a well-received message...

Where does it say anything like that? He doesn't say "I hope you come to believe in my God because I'm right". He says he hopes you eventually meet someone who exemplifies the correct behavior of a true christian so you can base your decision on that. I'm not a christian and I went back and read the post again; but try as I might, I simply couldn't find anything offensive in what was written.

By arguing my point I will be branded a hypocrite. Judge not lest ye be judged is what the good book says. For someone to go out their and apologise on behalf of all christians is hypocritical! I understand to make a point you do need to generalise but this is too much. How can someone denote christians who have sinned when they are sinners themselves. No one is without sin.

"Judge not, that you be not judged. for with that judgement you judge, you will be judged: and what measure you use, it will be measured back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, Let me remove the speck from your eye; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." (St Matthew 7:1-5)

Where does it say anything like that? He doesn't say "I hope you come to believe in my God because I'm right". He says he hopes you eventually meet someone who exemplifies the correct behavior of a true christian so you can base your decision on that. I'm not a christian and I went back and read the post again; but try as I might, I simply couldn't find anything offensive in what was written.

Which would you say was more important, in a message?

What was meant... or what was received?

To my thinking, if what you mean DIFFERS from what is received, it shows a flaw in the message, no?

So - the message is "Anyway, my deepest apologies to all un-believers. It is my greatest prayer that you will encounter just ONE person that will show you exactly HOW MUCH Jesus loves the world by just loving you the same way".

And yet, as a Christian, one assumes that the poster MUST know that non-believers are going to receive this as yet another call to godless heathens, about how ONLY Jesus can offer salvation from damnation.

Read back over my posts - and MOST of the other posts - and you'll find that THAT part of the post is the part that most people had a problem with. It asserts a form of scriptural esoteric knowledge, in the very midst of good intentions about being non-judgemental.

Which is why I argued that Woodsprites might want to rethink THAT part.

And, let's be serious - if Woodsprites HAD gone back and edited that post a little, tempered the 'holier than thou' just a bit... MOST of this thread would never have happened.

I'm a little peeved that no-one responded to my earlier post. Either I'm so wrong you didn't think it worth the time to correct me, so hard to understand you didn't think it worth learning about, so long winded you just got bored or so right that you couldn't think of an argument. So, to save me from a preconception of the latter of those four possibilities, could anyone throw in a response/retort to this? (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9461414&postcount=176) In particular, I'd like the Christian answer to the issue of why Christianity-sans-afterlife would be in any way weaker than its current incarnation... It seems to me to be a rather important one...

Grave_n_idle:

I never said that you were wrong, I said that I disagree with you on your interpretation of Revelation.....there is always a possibility that I am the one who is wrong, but we will never convince each other either way....it is no different than you saying that you disagree with me on many things. So we disagree....BIG DEAL!!! I think that you are just splitting hairs now when it comes to your arguments towards me. A theological debate ususally involves a certain amount of disagreement, or it isn't a debate.

For me, my personal relationship with God and my relationship to the church that I go to is equally important...because God USES the church to help us grow spiritually and follow Christ. In my opinion, God created the church to fufill a human's 5 deepest needs: a purpose to live for, people to live with, principles to live by, a profession to live out (meaning each person's personal ministry to the world) and power to live on. And I also believe that God's has 5 purposes meant for humans to fufill and church is meant to nurture those purposes: Worship helps you focus on God. Fellowship helps you face life's problems. Discipleship helps fortify your faith. Ministry helps find your talents. Evangelism helps fufill your mission. To me, going to church is like my spiritual battery charge for the week. So for me, I actually find that, when I am not able to go to church one week, I am spiritually tired and lack spiritual focus...and I look forward to going to church every week and just worshiping God with my fellow Christ followers....and getting my weekly spiritual boost from God.

I'm not going to go round and round with you on Revelation....because one will never convince the other.....but I will leave you with these thoughts on the topic:

Just so you know, my interpretation of Revelation is a widely acceptable interpretation. In fact, the Christian church has 4 main lines of thinking when it comes to the 1000 years: PREMILLENNIALISM, AMILLENNIALISM, POSTMILLENNIALISM, PRETERISM. Look them up on the internet to see what they each teach about the 1000 years. My interpretation of the 1000 years is that "1000 years" is not meant to be a literal 1000 years. Revelation is a highly symbolic book. The 1000 years (10 symbolizing completeness, and a 1000 being the cube of 10) is simply meant to represent (notice that I used the word "represent" in my first explanation, too.) a specific time period determined by God.

Scripturally, I base my thoughts on believers going to heaven to be with Jesus when they die on this passage:

" One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!" But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong." Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." " ( Luke 23:39-43, NIV)

I won't argue about WHO is right about their interpretation of Revelation...because we know that no one will win. I do suggest that you do some research on the different views held by the Christian church, though....maybe you might actually find that you agree with some of it!! :) :eek:

The Book of Revelation is something that the Christian church does widely disagree on, but the disagreements are ususally based on:
(1) the fact and timing of the rapture; (2) the nature and length of time of the millennial kingdom in Revelation 20; (3) the nature, timing, and extent of the tribulation period; and (4) the role of national Israel in the unfolding of the end times and in the millennium.

Grave_n_idle, your main point is that you think that I should rethink my original post, right? Well, I don't think so...and I won't be. You see, without this post (or the misunderstanding that went with it) I wouldn't have had this converstation with you. And I would've truly been missing out. Everything happens for a reason...even if it isn't the the reason that was originally intended. :)

Grave_n_idle:

I never said that you were wrong, I said that I disagree with you on your interpretation of Revelation.....there is always a possibility that I am the one who is wrong, but we will never convince each other either way....it is no different than you saying that you disagree with me on many things. So we disagree....BIG DEAL!!! I think that you are just splitting hairs now when it comes to your arguments towards me. A theological debate ususally involves a certain amount of disagreement, or it isn't a debate.

For me, my personal relationship with God and my relationship to the church that I go to is equally important...because God USES the church to help us grow spiritually and follow Christ. In my opinion, God created the church to fufill a human's 5 deepest needs: a purpose to live for, people to live with, principles to live by, a profession to live out (meaning each person's personal ministry to the world) and power to live on. And I also believe that God's has 5 purposes meant for humans to fufill and church is meant to nurture those purposes: Worship helps you focus on God. Fellowship helps you face life's problems. Discipleship helps fortify your faith. Ministry helps find your talents. Evangelism helps fufill your mission. To me, going to church is like my spiritual battery charge for the week. So for me, I actually find that, when I am not able to go to church one week, I am spiritually tired and lack spiritual focus...and I look forward to going to church every week and just worshiping God with my fellow Christ followers....and getting my weekly spiritual boost from God.

I'm not going to go round and round with you on Revelation....because one will never convince the other.....but I will leave you with these thoughts on the topic:

Just so you know, my interpretation of Revelation is a widely acceptable interpretation. In fact, the Christian church has 4 main lines of thinking when it comes to the 1000 years: PREMILLENNIALISM, AMILLENNIALISM, POSTMILLENNIALISM, PRETERISM. Look them up on the internet to see what they each teach about the 1000 years. My interpretation of the 1000 years is that "1000 years" is not meant to be a literal 1000 years. Revelation is a highly symbolic book. The 1000 years (10 symbolizing completeness, and a 1000 being the cube of 10) is simply meant to represent (notice that I used the word "represent" in my first explanation, too.) a specific time period determined by God.

Scripturally, I base my thoughts on believers going to heaven to be with Jesus when they die on this passage:

" One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!" But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong." Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." " ( Luke 23:39-43, NIV)

I won't argue about WHO is right about their interpretation of Revelation...because we know that no one will win. I do suggest that you do some research on the different views held by the Christian church, though....maybe you might actually find that you agree with some of it!! :) :eek:

The Book of Revelation is something that the Christian church does widely disagree on, but the disagreements are ususally based on:
(1) the fact and timing of the rapture; (2) the nature and length of time of the millennial kingdom in Revelation 20; (3) the nature, timing, and extent of the tribulation period; and (4) the role of national Israel in the unfolding of the end times and in the millennium.

Grave_n_idle, your main point is that you think that I should rethink my original post, right? Well, I don't think so...and I won't be. You see, without this post (or the misunderstanding that went with it) I wouldn't have had this converstation with you. And I would've truly been missing out. Everything happens for a reason...even if it isn't the the reason that was originally intended. :)

That's about the third time you have said somethign along the lines of "I'm not going to go round and round with you on Revelation....because one will never convince the other"... Which I find peculiar, because I have felt no need to 'convince' anyone of anything.

I come here to debate... that means presenting arguments, and evidence, and supporting those arguments, and discussing the OTHER arguments presented. It CAN, at the end of the day, also lead a person to reconsider their own arguments. THAT, I believe, is evidence of GOOD debate.

But, am I trying to preach to you? Are you seriously trying to 'convince' me? If so - street-corners would arguably be better venues for each of us, than an internet debate forum.

It may surprise you to find that I have done DECADES of research on the different views held by different churches, over issues like Revelation... perhaps it is you has assumed too much, my friend?

Regarding the quotation about "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise"... how does that support an automatic assumption that we transfer straight from 'here and now' to the afterlife?

Since our 'god' is assumed to be eternal, and our 'heaven' is assumed to be timeless... why would the petty constraints of chronology apply?

Does it not make MORE sense for the person to 'lose their life' today, or yesterday, or tomorrow... but for us ALL to arrive at the 'heavenly gates' at some point removed from all time... and thus, ALL 'today'?

After all, Revelation details the awakeneing of ALL the dead... they don't appear in shifts.



Oh - and I do agree with you on one thing... we don't HAVE to agree with each other, for me to appreciate the debate. Thank you, my friend.

Grave_n_idle:

By the way, I grew up in the Lutheran church...and I never felt my personal relationship with God grow inside that environment. I felt that the Lutheran church was too focused on "pomp and circumstance" and tradition for me to relate to it all on a personal level. It wasn't until I met my husband that I began to see that worshipping God meant far more than attending a church service out of "duty" each week. We found the Alliance church to be a better fit for us and the growth of our personal relationship with God. It is there that I found joy in worship at church for the very first time. Before that, the idea of clapping in church, or raising my hands to God in worship, was unheard of to me. In my church, we spend half of the service just worshipping God through song....and not the typical boring hymns, but contemporary Christian songs that are on the Christian music charts today. Sometimes we even have dancers perform for us to show us a different form of worshipping God, or we have actors perform scenes that also show us a different form of worshipping God. If you aren't familiar with some of the contemporary Christian music, I would be more than happy to share them with you...through MSN, or email...but that is up to you. I just wanted you to know that church doesn't have to be boring and full of "pomp and circumstance"....because growing up I did feel like I just couldn't relate to the church that I was a part of....in fact, when I was younger, I HATED going to church. :)

Grave_n_idle:

You asked me where I scripturally believe that there is proof of believers going straight to be with Jesus when they die. So I gave it to you. Again, I didn't say that you had to agree with me....but you asked, so I put it out there. I think that it is great that you have done your research on Revelation, but just because you have done your research doesn't mean that a) I have to agree with you and b) that you are right. Heck, I'm not even making the claim that what I believe in is right. It is only what I believe and hold true in my heart...I'm not asking for you to hold it true in your heart. And I never will.

Grave_n_idle:

By the way, I grew up in the Lutheran church...and I never felt my personal relationship with God grow inside that environment. I felt that the Lutheran church was too focused on "pomp and circumstance" and tradition for me to relate to it all on a personal level. It wasn't until I met my husband that I began to see that worshipping God meant far more than attending a church service out of "duty" each week. We found the Alliance church to be a better fit for us and the growth of our personal relationship with God. It is there that I found joy in worship at church for the very first time. Before that, the idea of clapping in church, or raising my hands to God in worship, was unheard of to me. In my church, we spend half of the service just worshipping God through song....and not the typical boring hymns, but contemporary Christian songs that are on the Christian music charts today. Sometimes we even have dancers perform for us to show us a different form of worshipping God, or we have actors perform scenes that also show us a different form of worshipping God. If you aren't familiar with some of the contemporary Christian music, I would be more than happy to share them with you...through MSN, or email...but that is up to you. I just wanted you to know that church doesn't have to be boring and full of "pomp and circumstance"....because growing up I did feel like I just couldn't relate to the church that I was a part of....in fact, when I was younger, I HATED going to church. :)

I agree with you about the 'joy' in religion. Too many churches have overlooked that, in my opinion. It disturbs me, but people seem to have more passion for 'fire-and-brimstone', than for 'love-thy-neighbour'.

As I said in my earlier post... I HAVE done the circuit... I wouldn't have said that church had to be boring, or full of pomp and circumstance - because I have encountered a wealth of institutions that do not fit those descriptions. However, I have also attended venues where that very much WAS the order of the day... and, more terrifying, that seems to be the way some LIKE it. :)

Regarding the Contemporary Christian Music... I wonder how contemporary, and which genre? I rarely find Christian Rock that I can even stomach, but at least, to MY tastes, it is prefereable to the likes of DC Talk....

Grave_n_idle:

You asked me where I scripturally believe that there is proof of believers going straight to be with Jesus when they die. So I gave it to you. Again, I didn't say that you had to agree with me....but you asked, so I put it out there. I think that it is great that you have done your research on Revelation, but just because you have done your research doesn't mean that a) I have to agree with you and b) that you are right. Heck, I'm not even making the claim that what I believe in is right. It is only what I believe and hold true in my heart...I'm not asking for you to hold it true in your heart. And I never will.

Excellent... as it should be. And, I just placed my interpretation of the 'today' thing out there... you do not have to agree.

Good. Now, let's go get pizza. :D

Grave_n_idle:

And I do also thank you for the debate! If it is okay with you, I will say that I would be proud to call you a friend...even though we don't seem to agree on much!! LOL :)

MMMMM.....Pizza sounds good! Who's buying? LOL :)

Grave_n_idle:

And I do also thank you for the debate! If it is okay with you, I will say that I would be proud to call you a friend...even though we don't seem to agree on much!! LOL :)

It would be an honour I would be only TOO pleased to accept. :)

Perhaps you would be surprised at how 'eclectic' my friends-circle seems to be... then again, having read some of your posts... perhaps you would understand.

Shalom.

MMMMM.....Pizza sounds good! Who's buying? LOL :)

I'm very modern about such things... so long as there is pepperoni, I'm happy to go dutch? :D

In regards to contemporary Christian music....DC Talk is very cool...I also like Petra, Casting Crowns, Sonic Flood, Chris Rice, Greg Sczebel and so many others that I would have to look through my music collection to name them all!! :) Petra has a song that is called "Jesus, Friend of Sinners" that you might like....and Chris Rice has a song that will probably make you laugh called "The Cartoon Song".....but one of my favorite worship songs is "Here I Am To Worship" by Sonic Flood....there is Christian music out there of every genre...it is just a matter of what type of music you like. The message is the same whether you are into heavy metal, pop, rock, rap, jazz, alternative, dance, rave or even traditional hymns! :)

Pepperoni on the pizza sounds good...but NO anchovies!! And I'm fine to go dutch, too!! LOL...I totally understand about having an eclectic circle of friends...in fact, I don't have many friends that are Christian!! LOL....But seriously, I do want you to know that I do have a great deal of respect for you...and I am glad that we can be friends!! Good friends are sometimes hard to come by! :)

In regards to contemporary Christian music....DC Talk is very cool...I also like Petra, Casting Crowns, Sonic Flood, Chris Rice, Greg Sczebel and so many others that I would have to look through my music collection to name them all!! :) Petra has a song that is called "Jesus, Friend of Sinners" that you might like....and Chris Rice has a song that will probably make you laugh called "The Cartoon Song".....but one of my favorite worship songs is "Here I Am To Worship" by Sonic Flood....there is Christian music out there of every genre...it is just a matter of what type of music you like. The message is the same whether you are into heavy metal, pop, rock, rap, jazz, alternative, dance, rave or even traditional hymns! :)

I know SOME Casting Crowns... like 'Voice of Truth', and I believe I know the Chris Rice song of which you speak... about 'cartoons getting saved'?

My usual tastes in music are pretty eclectic... I guess I am a pretty eclectic person. :) I have an especial preference for gothic and industrial music, for male harmony (think Alice in Chains, Godsmack, A Perfect Circle), and for 'angelic female vocals (think Tori Amos, Evanescense, Dido, Sarah Maclachlan...). I also love techno and rave... some of it. (The Prodigy, for example).

I was never much of a fan of DC Talk, I'm afraid. :(

We have a radio station I listen to at work, with a programme called "The Fire Escape", which plays a lot of contemporary 'Christian Rock'... and I quite like some of the more challenging/experimental stuff.

Pepperoni on the pizza sounds good...but NO anchovies!! And I'm fine to go dutch, too!! LOL...I totally understand about having an eclectic circle of friends...in fact, I don't have many friends that are Christian!! LOL....But seriously, I do want you to know that I do have a great deal of respect for you...and I am glad that we can be friends!! Good friends are sometimes hard to come by! :)

Now I get a little worried... too MUCH agreement. :) I'm no friend of anchovies, either.

Thankyou for your kind sentiments, and know that they are returned in kind.

Grave_n_idle:

Yes, "The Cartoon Song" is about cartoons being saved....I love it!...it's too funny!...and it takes me back to a time when cartoons were ACTUALLY good! LOL...Some people like DC Talk...others don't! :) For me, I like ALL genres of Christian music (I also like all genres of secular music)...but what I listen to depends on the mood that I am in! :) Christian music has come a LONG way...and I think that it is a good thing! :) As I go through all of my Christian music I will keep you in mind...and if I see something that I think you may like, then I will let you know. I have SO much Christian music....it is truly INSANE!! LOL :)

Grave_n_idle:

LOL...yes, I AGREE, all of this mutual agreement HAS to stop!! LOL :)

I'm a little peeved that no-one responded to my earlier post. Either I'm so wrong you didn't think it worth the time to correct me, so hard to understand you didn't think it worth learning about, so long winded you just got bored or so right that you couldn't think of an argument. So, to save me from a preconception of the latter of those four possibilities, could anyone throw in a response/retort to this? (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9461414&postcount=176) In particular, I'd like the Christian answer to the issue of why Christianity-sans-afterlife would be in any way weaker than its current incarnation... It seems to me to be a rather important one...

I sorry we go side tracked on original sin. The reason why is man was created to be eternal and to partake of gods divinty "deification". christ came to reestablish that. Because of Christ we can partake of Christs divine nature and mature to perfection ultimatly being in divine union with God for all eternity. As things stand you can obtain union with God but in an imperfect manner, only after death, and purgation if neccessary will you see God and experience him as he truly is. The veil will be pulled back at your death, and you will see things as they truly are. This earth is nowhere near the paradise God envisioned for us. Again I know we disagree about it, but original sin destroyed our relationship with God, and brought death destruction sickness etc.. into the world. This is not HEaven and will never be, although we can establish union with God although in an imperfect manner.