NationStates Jolt Archive

This thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=437845) got me to thinking of a series of workshops at this annual political/environmental/social issues conference thing in my town that I attend. Well, it got me to thinking about one particular workshop I went to two years ago, rather.

This really nice, wholesome looking university aged guy was talking about homelessness in Toronto, I think, and about one building in particular that was not being used by the city but that the homeless kept getting kicked out of...
We got to talking about property rights and all that, and that's when he went off on a tangent about how he steals from Wal-Mart. Like, all the time.
He said that it was quite easy.
He encouraged us to steal from large corporations to make a statement, and to avoid supporting these large corporations with our patronage. It's called political shoplifting, and he is apparently not the only one doing it.

http://www.why-war.com/guides/2003/11/politicalshoplifting.html

Private Property: A Lesson in Brainwashing
One must realize that the concept of private property --that a person or corporation has an inalienable right to some object of material value --is one that we are indoctrinated with as children and that is pounded into our skulls (usually with police batons) throughout our lives
[...]
Everything is yours if you take it. That doesn't mean that we advocate you just steal whatever you want from whomever you want, but the fact remains true; private property is simply a mindset, protected by a violent and coercive state and exploited by the wealthiest members of our society. Even Disney Corporation could not deny the honour of Sir Robin Hood, who 'stole from the rich to give to the poor.' The key to political shoplifting, then, is to make sure that you are always stealing from those who can afford to be stolen from." Not Looking Sketchy
The most important subject to remember from school when liberating stuff you need is psychology. You can get away with amazing things simply by being psychologically aware of your surroundings. If you look like you are supposed to be doing whatever you are doing, the majority of people will assume the same. It is entirely possible to walk into a store with a clipboard in hand, and walk out with a crate of food for your friends, with a courteous nod to the cashier on the way out. Clipboards, like cell phones, for whatever reason are extremely disarming. Wear a collared shirt, a My Name Is____ badge and carry a clip board and you'd be amazed at what you can get away with.As well as a note not to steal from the Goodwill, there is a "Corporate Hit List" of places you can, nay should steal from, including but not limited to:
Staples,
Kinko’s,
Home Depot,
Barnes and Noble,
Wal-Mart,
K-Mart,
Target,
Gap,
Nike, Abercrombie and Fitch
and Macy's.

When you liberate items from large corporations, or when you make things for yourself instead of buying them, you are simultaneously becoming more self-sufficient, and taking economic direct action against your oppressors.It's really interesting, and I agree, for the most part. Whether you agree or are horrifyied at the thought of people doing this, you have to admit, his writing style is hilarious!
I don't think I'll be doing it any time soon but it's something that I'm looking into.

Their prices are so low, I feel like I'm stealing everytime I shop there! *retch*

The person proposing this is a fool. I think companies have the right to make money and their stores provide work. Shame on you anti-capitalists. He should be arrested for promoting criminal activity. And personally I find it disgusting how some can shop-lift, while some of us pay for these goods. I'd rather see those who do it spend a few years in jail. Those rantings are delusional, sickening and criminal.

Crime doesn't pay. I hope if you steal you get caught and I hope the judge is harsh. All the people at the why-war site should be arrested for promoting criminal activity.

I'm sorry but I fucking pay for these products so someone could have a job.

Terrific idea. Let's all stick it to the bastards where they live - their bottom line - and damn the anti-human consumerite outcries! To Hell with the accumulation and retention of capital!

Steal EVERYTHING!

Terrific idea. Let's all stick it to the bastards where they live - their bottom line - and damn the anti-human consumerite outcries! To Hell with the accumulation and retention of capital!

Steal EVERYTHING!

Including jobs? Because I know plenty of people who work in that list posted.

You people who want to steal deserve to spend years behind bars. You are nothing more then anti-progress, anti-capitalists...

This is where my old authoritarian side comes out. I'm pro-law and order. And I want any stealing dealt with harshly.

Walmart may be a demonic plot from another dimension that is intent on feeding on our souls, but that doesn't justify stealing. Just don't ever ever ever shop there.

I don't steal for a couple of reasons. The main reason being that I don't condone theft, and the not-quite-main-but-close-enough reason being that I'm a pussy at heart and am afraid to get caught.

While I understand how stealing from a large corporation can seem like dealing a blow for justice, there are still reprocussions. Say 10% of the people living in my town decided to follow your advice and steal from our local Wal-Mart. 10% of my town is 540 people. If 540 items are stolen from Wal-Mart, and if even only half of them succeed, someone will be fired. It might be a 'lay off' to cover the costs of the lost goods or costs of increased security, or it may be punishment for allowing people to get away with it. Somewhere down the line, someone will get burned, and shit rolls downhill.

It's sad, but it's true.

Terrific idea. Let's all stick it to the bastards where they live - their bottom line - and damn the anti-human consumerite outcries! To Hell with the accumulation and retention of capital!

Steal EVERYTHING!yay!!!
No, seriously, this isn't about stealing just for the hell of it; political shoplifting is not really about stealing at all.

Ok. How about this one.. if you think Walmart is stealing from society, if you steal how the fuck does that make you better then them according to your own logic?

Hypocrisy.

yay!!!
No, seriously, this isn't about stealing just for the hell of it; political shoplifting is not really about stealing at all.

"Political" shoplifters deserves extra jail time.

Ok. How about this one.. if you think Walmart is stealing from society, if you steal how the fuck does that make you better then them according to your own logic?

Hypocrisy.
Sheesh. You're so uptight it's a wonder your buns don't fall off. And you don't know how to have fun with your posts. Even your use of the word 'fuck' seems strained and out-of-place.

Hypocricy? More like Miserablism.

Lighten up for once in your life.

Sheesh. You're so uptight it's a wonder your buns don't fall off. And you don't know how to have fun with your posts. Even your use of the word 'fuck' seems strained and out-of-place.

Hypocricy? More like Miserablism.

Lighten up for once in your life.

Look this stealing is hypocrisy.

What if someone gets fired because your crookedness? I'm dead serious and I was asking a question. What if someone gets fired? What if my friend who is trying to cover living expenses get fired? Those who do it make people suffer and are criminals... someone could lose their job. How would you feel about that?

I'm not going to lighten up when you are talking about my friends who could potentially lose their jobs over this false crap!

Private Property: A Lesson in Brainwashing
One must realize that the concept of private property --that a person or corporation has an inalienable right to some object of material value --is one that we are indoctrinated with as children and that is pounded into our skulls (usually with police batons) throughout our lives
[...]
Everything is yours if you take it. That doesn't mean that we advocate you just steal whatever you want from whomever you want, but the fact remains true; private property is simply a mindset, protected by a violent and coercive state and exploited by the wealthiest members of our society. Even Disney Corporation could not deny the honour of Sir Robin Hood, who 'stole from the rich to give to the poor.' The key to political shoplifting, then, is to make sure that you are always stealing from those who can afford to be stolen from."

Distortion at its most distorted! I do not have an 'inalienable right' to having private property. I'm sure you're aware of the theory behind work and profit, so I won't go in to that. I'll leave it at I worked for my private property (you don't have to earn an inalienable right). If you did not work for it them society has deemed that you do not deserve to have it. This is because someone else labored to create material things (the same for services, but this is beyond the scope of the quote). The way to compensate that person, or those people, that put work in to a given thing is to give them something of equal worth. Anything that you can give them was something that you worked to get. We set up a system like this because we all have our own interests in mind. I don't want to get screwed over when I produce something, so I won't screw over anyone else that produces something.

The theory behind Robin Hood stealing from the rich and giving to the poor was that the rich stole the money from the poor to begin with through unjustifiable taxes. Remember that it was a fairy tale from a time when feudalism was at its worst. The difference between Robin Hood stealing tax money and you stealing a candy bar from Wal-Mart is that Wal-Mart has never stolen anything from you.

Remember, those products Wal-Mart steals come from somewhere. Usually from eastern Asia. When you steal, you're taking advantage of every person that worked on that product in a factory and every person that helped ship it to your local Wal-Mart.

"Political" shoplifters deserves extra jail time.How do you figure that?

How do you figure that?

I think they deserve it because they are trying to inflict financial harm on employees.

I think they deserve it because they are trying to inflict financial harm on employees.
How so? I don't recall Wal-Mart employees being paid on commission

How so? I don't recall Wal-Mart employees being paid on commission

I never said that.

All I said is Walmart would lay people off if stealing was sufficient to cover their losses.

Dammit, why do people sign up to work at Wal-Mart? They have the worst pay and benefits of almost anything you can work at.

Wal-Mart does enough ripping off of foreign countries that a few articles of clothes or snack mix being smuggled out will not hurt their bottom dollar

Wal-Mart does enough ripping off of foreign countries that a few articles of clothes or snack mix being smuggled out will not hurt their bottom dollar

The jobs provided in those foreign countries are better then nothing.

I don't give a damn. Stealing is against the law.

If you don't like wal-mart, then don't shop there. And don't steal from there. Hold protests or something if you want. Don't try to gain unfair advantage over the rest of us who do pay our hardworked money.

Let us not forget here that Walmart or any other large retailer is going to figure for a certain amount of theft when it sets its prices. Thus if a standard amount of shoplifting goes on then it is the customers who pay for it. However, if a reduced amount of shoplifting goes on then ... the customers still pay for it, but the money goes to the retailers.

I don't give a damn. Stealing is against the law.

Do you believe that all laws should automatically be obeyed?

Do you believe that all laws should automatically be obeyed?

No (like with drinking age at 21 which is ridiculous), but there are some laws that are correct. And laws against stealing are definitely some of them.

Hmmmm... I mean I'm anti-Walmart and anti-Capitalism, but if I or anyone steals from walmart, who hurts? Surely not the fatcat millionares who we really want to damage. It's the people at the store, the "expendables," who are struggling to scrape enough together to survive. Even if prolific enough, the Wal-Mart stealing scheme still won't defeat the fatcats. They will just lower the bottom line - Fire more people, employ more sweatshop workers, cut more corners, as they struggle to stay afloat. Even drawn to it's finality where nearly everyone takes from Wal-Mart, the corporation will cannabalize itself before the target heads fall.

This scheme can only cause suffering to the poorer members of our society affiliated with Wal-Mart. This scheme will never ever suceed in affecting it's targets in any significant way.

But assuming that *somehow* we make it work. Is it even acceptable? I mean, IMHO, indirectly or directly Wal-Mart and other immoral corporations have taken from society through outsourcing, union-breaking, keeping wages low, using overseas child labour, using sweatshops, caring more about earning millions for a select few than anything else, yet what are we if we steal from Wal-Mart? A keystone of the liberal side of things is a glorious rejection of the Hammurabi's code idea of an eye for an eye. We would be no better than a criminal corporation by commiting crimes on that corporation. In any struggle we must hold the high ground. I mean if it comes to a choice between those who steal from the top-down(Wal-Mart) and those who steal from the bottom-up(political shoplifters), in the finality of things it's just a choice between two theives.

In this Socialist's opinion, this scheme is a bad idea, and not something I could support.

If 540 items are stolen from Wal-Mart, and if even only half of them succeed, someone will be fired. It might be a 'lay off' to cover the costs of the lost goods or costs of increased security, or it may be punishment for allowing people to get away with it. Somewhere down the line, someone will get burned, and shit rolls downhill.

Then again, instead of firing someone,they might hire more security staff or store detectives. So it can be the cause of job creation as well.

Then again, instead of firing someone,they might hire more security staff or store detectives. So it can be the cause of job creation as well.

They would just install more cameras... not more security guards. I know that from friends who work at several department stores.

No (like with drinking age at 21 which is ridiculous), but there are some laws that are correct. And laws against stealing are definitely some of them.

In that case, merely stating that something is against the law is no argument against doing it.

No (like with drinking age at 21 which is ridiculous), but there are some laws that are correct. And laws against stealing are definitely some of them.
Hmm, believe it or not, I agree with you. Drinking should be allowed at age 12, IMO. However, driver's licences should not be obtained before age 21. And stealing is the least of crimes people should be concerned about.

Wal-Mart does enough ripping off of foreign countries that a few articles of clothes or snack mix being smuggled out will not hurt their bottom dollar

The wages might not seem like much to us, but they're great for someone that had absolutely no job until they managed to get one in a factory. Wages in Asia are getting higher all the time, so there will continue to be improvement of the standard of living over there in the years to come.

Do you believe that all laws should automatically be obeyed?

I think we should try to get laws we don't agree with changed by legal means before we start protesting by breaking the law.

Hmm, believe it or not, I agree with you. Drinking should be allowed at age 12

I think drinking should be allowed from infancy. I mean, you don't actually give a baby alcohol, but the option should always be there for a child. If kids don't hold alcohol on a pedistal then the only ones that will abuse it would be the ones that would abuse it no matter what you do. Parents shouldn't have any trouble keeping their kids from abusing alcohol when they're younger then 12, anyway. If they let them drink it at all. I would let my child have a little bit every now and then so he doesn't try to swipe any out of jealousy or curiosity.

In that case, merely stating that something is against the law is no argument against doing it.

I already compiled a big argument against this all. And I even have people on the left who agree with me.

They would just install more cameras... not more security guards. I know that from friends who work at several department stores.

Result: increased orders to the security companies that produce cameras. Once again an economic benefit for society as a whole.

I already compiled a big argument against this all. And I even have people on the left who agree with me.
If you've compiled it, don't tell us about it - make it. Make your argument.

Result: increased orders to the security companies that produce cameras. Once again an economic benefit for society as a whole.

And those who attempt to steal end up going through trials which cost money, in turn costing money to tax payers.

Got you.

Your slippery slope argument doesn't fly.

If you've compiled it, don't tell us about it - make it. Make your argument.

I did make it. And I stated it strongly.

Also I reported this thread to moderation because I believe it could be violating rules.

I think we should try to get laws we don't agree with changed by legal means before we start protesting by breaking the law.

Ah, so Rosa Parks should have got up from her seat on the bus after all.

Ah, so Rosa Parks should have got up from her seat on the bus after all.

That's a strawman fallacy.

Promoting the act of stealing goods, as well as posting stores that are good to steal from is not allowed here; therefore, closed.


~The Modified Freedom Forces of Euroslavia
Nationstates Forum Moderator~