NationStates Jolt Archive

Alright, I'm a little confused about something.
According to you, an embryo is a human being right from the start, yes?
Also, a human being has to accept Jesus as their saviour to enter Heaven, yes?
So if we add these two factors together then all aborted foetuses- be they from natural miscarriages or deliberate abortion attempts- are going to hell.
So this means that God made each embryo, then decided to destroy it before it had a chance to be saved and then sent it to hell.
Seeing as approx. 78% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscarriage#Prevalence) doesn't it seem a little bit harsh of God to doom eight tenths of all people to an eternity of suffering?

doesn't it seem a little bit harsh of God to doom eight tenths of all people to an eternity of suffering?

I wish VoteEarly were here to answer that question. :D

According to you, an embryo is a human being right from the start, yes?
They really think that? How silly :p

Well, I am hardly and expert on the subject, but if I remember correctly, children are essentially given a "free pass" to heaven, as they are still inocent. At least I think that's how it's supposed to work.

I was under the impression that unbaptized infants who die go to limbo, not hell. I'm not sure what limbo is, but I think it's got to do with partying on shore of a carribian island and you dance under low sticks and drink fruity beverages for eternity.

I'd answer this question if I was Christian, but I am an athiest conservative.

I do not know if a fetus has a soul, but I can't imagine God sending an innocent soul to Hell.

And you don't need to accept Jesus to get into Heaven, even the Bible says that. Christains arn't the only ones who get God's love and mercy

It would be possible to construct a rationalization for this situation by insisting that God, who we consider to be omnicient, must know which pregnancies will end in accidental or natural miscarriage and would thus not invest those with souls. The others, the aborted fetuses, may very well be going to hell. No, that's not fair. No, that's not nice. So what? Who said God was nice? We christians insist that God is loving. Loving is not the same as fair or nice. We claim that God is just, not fair.

To head off objections, just and fair are not the same. Justice is giving someone what they deserve because they deserve it and doing so is right. Fair is giving someone exactly what someone else got because someone else happened to get more or less than they deserved.

Furthermore, it is possible that those infants are not going to hell. Original sin is a doctrine derived from scriptural evidence, not a directly mentioned thing anywhere in scripture. We assume, because it seems most consistant, that people are born sinful, in that they are inclined to sin and therefore earn hell, but the question remains as to whether God will condemn someone for their inclinations or their actions. An aborted fetus can have taken no actions, and so may be spared. There's no real proof either way.

So basically, yes, by having an abortion you may be condemning your child to hell. Or God might have mercy on it. We can't know. As with all discussions on abortion, it is an unfortunate fact that we cannot point to any passage that directly addresses any aspect of the issue.

Well, I am hardly and expert on the subject, but if I remember correctly, children are essentially given a "free pass" to heaven, as they are still inocent. At least I think that's how it's supposed to work.
I'm not too certain as I'm not a very religion person myself, but I believe that until a child becomes more or less "intelligent", and can distinguish right from wrong yet make conscious decisions to do wrong (usually at age 3-4), they are without sin. And since sin is the only thing keeping people from heaven and god, straight up they go.

I do not know if a fetus has a soul, but I can't imagine God sending an innocent soul to Hell.

And you don't need to accept Jesus to get into Heaven, even the Bible says that. Christains arn't the only ones who get God's love and mercy
Yar. Absolutely right… I think.

Embryo isn't a foetus. :)

Well, I am hardly and expert on the subject, but if I remember correctly, children are essentially given a "free pass" to heaven, as they are still inocent. At least I think that's how it's supposed to work.

That would make sense if the Bible confirmed it, but the Bible actually teaches the doctrine of original sin, meaning human beings are sinful even before they are born (It says this somewhere in the Psalms, but I don't remember exactly where). We all require redemption regardless of what we have done in our lives, so what happens to unborn children who don't have the chance to seek redemption?

I don't believe that the Catholic church has an official stance on that question. The most that the church can do is hope that there is an alternative route to heaven besides Baptism. Just because we don't know of an alternative way to get there it doesn't mean there it doesn't exist.

Some people speculate that an aborted fetus is a martyr and is thus gets a free pass into heaven. Others speculate that God can do what ever he wants and that when he sees that we start aborting babies, he can let them in to heaven, original sin be damned (you know what I mean).

Edit: There is no basis in the Bible for 'limbo'. Limbo is an inference that was made by priests a few hundred years after the death of Jesus. When posed with the question of what happened to infants that died before they were baptised the priests had to form an opinion. Some believed that they were allowed in to heaven, some believed that they were put in a place called limbo (Back then it was thought to be a neutral state of existance, being neither a place of happiness nor torment.), and at some point it was popular opinion that the infants would go to hell, although they would be the best treated residents there. Here's something I found on a web site regarding limbo.

A Roman Catholic web site, the Shrine of Our Lady of the Roses, publishes "Directives from Heaven." These are excerpts culled from what which the Shrine believes are "...messages (over 300) given by Heaven to the world over the past twenty-five years. There are currently seventy-five in publication. Each Directive is targeted toward a specific subject which Heaven has willed to enlighten and instruct the world on." One of the Directives deals with abortion and contraception. It contains the following message which the Shrine believes came from the Virgin Mary on 1987-OCT-02.

LIMBO
"And what, My children, are We going to do with all the aborted babies? O My child, I know you feel as I do, for I can see the great distress on your face. What are we going to do, My child? Do you understand when they come to Us, they must go to Limbo? They are in Heaven, a happy place, but they cannot see God. " 9

If this is an accurate message, then it confirms the existence of Limbo. It also represents an additional example of the transferability of sin by punishing the innocent for the sins of others. This theme runs throughout the Bible. In this case, the fetus is punished by never being allowed to see God, in response to the woman's decision to have an abortion -- an act considered to be a mortal sin by the Roman Catholic Church.

Who knows whether that's true.

I do not know if a fetus has a soul, but I can't imagine God sending an innocent soul to Hell.

And you don't need to accept Jesus to get into Heaven, even the Bible says that. Christains arn't the only ones who get God's love and mercy
Yes they are.
John 14:6- I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me

I'd answer this question if I was Christian, but I am an athiest conservative.


So why did you even post?

Here's a link to a Christian site that deals with this issue: http://www.christianliferesources.com/cgi-bin/dcisDisplay.pl?webpage&pageID=983

Basically, it says that the Bible is silent on the issue, but that we can have faith that God is just and will not treat unborn children unfairly. The implication seems to be that we need not know what happens to unborn children who die, but that we ought to be more concerned with the state of our own salvation.

I was under the impression that unbaptized infants who die go to limbo, not hell. I'm not sure what limbo is, but I think it's got to do with partying on shore of a carribian island and you dance under low sticks and drink fruity beverages for eternity.
Dante's inferno isn't church canon :p

Yar. Absolutely right… I think.

Embryo isn't a foetus. :)

Well, I don't know if either has a soul, so I'm ganna stay out of that paticular fight

I'm not too certain as I'm not a very religion person myself, but I believe that until a child becomes more or less "intelligent", and can distinguish right from wrong yet make conscious decisions to do wrong (usually at age 3-4), they are without sin. And since sin is the only thing keeping people from heaven and god, straight up they go.

"Blessed be the mouths of babes" and all

That would make sense if the Bible confirmed it, but the Bible actually teaches the doctrine of original sin, meaning human beings are sinful even before they are born (It says this somewhere in the Psalms, but I don't remember exactly where). We all require redemption regardless of what we have done in our lives, so what happens to unborn children who don't have the chance to seek redemption?


That's one inperpretation.


Yes they are.
John 14:6- I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me

I'm sorry, that just doen't sit right with me, and goes against all I know abour Jesus and God.

Also, I remember the preist gave a sermon to this effect one time, I forget the passage, but it was something like "it is those who live the Word (virtuous people), not those who have the Word (Christains) who will get the kingdom of Heaven"
It went on to say that if you do good, even if you don't accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, that means you had good in your heart, and are of God.

But maby we Greeks have a different outlook then the Cathlics or Proastants. I certainly think the version I heard makes more sence, it just feels more right to me, knowing what I know and understanding what I understand abour Christ.

Alright, I'm a little confused about something.
According to you, an embryo is a human being right from the start, yes?
Also, a human being has to accept Jesus as their saviour to enter Heaven, yes?
So if we add these two factors together then all aborted foetuses- be they from natural miscarriages or deliberate abortion attempts- are going to hell.
So this means that God made each embryo, then decided to destroy it before it had a chance to be saved and then sent it to hell.
Seeing as approx. 78% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscarriage#Prevalence) doesn't it seem a little bit harsh of God to doom eight tenths of all people to an eternity of suffering?

I don't know if I am a conservative Christian. I am a Christian who believes the Bible, and currently attending a Lutheran Church.

I've always thought it quite silly to make attemps at guessing where the kids and the unborn go when they die. I read one of the posts earlier that suggested that kids sinned before they were born, and that that was somehow in the Psalms. I have never read that. David does say that he was a sinner from his birth. Perhaps it was a reference to that.

The Bible doesn't have much to say about the destiny of those (eg small children and mentally ill) who are possibly unable to make a choice for God. Then why should we? What advantage is it? I do not say we should not be curious. We should think about it. What I am against is the part where some people (mostly Christians) have to make up their minds over who does go to heaven and who doesn't. Jesus' disciples once asked him a similar question to that. His response--you too will suffer the consequences of your sin unless you get yourself right with God. From that, I gather that we should distinguish between the interesting and the essential.

But as for addressing the question itself, I would have thought that any person who claimed to have a relationship with God as his or her heavenly Father would be quick to point out the Father heart of God--the best, most kindest heart there ever was--and assume that He of all people would know the best way to deal with aborted foetuses and such problems. If they were my children, I would tenderly take them in my arms and love them with a passion.

I wish VoteEarly were here to answer that question. :D

I miss that guy. He made me laugh.

I like you, we need more people like that to dispell the myth that all Christains are raving, hatful loonies

I'm sorry, that just doen't sit right with me, and goes against all I know abour Jesus and God.

Also, I remember the preist gave a sermon to this effect one time, I forget the passage, but it was something like "it is those who live the Word (virtuous people), not those who have the Word (Christains) who will get the kingdom of Heaven"
It went on to say that if you do good, even if you don't accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, that means you had good in your heart, and are of God.

But maby we Greeks have a different outlook then the Cathlics or Proastants. I certainly think the version I heard makes more sence, it just feels more right to me, knowing what I know and understanding what I understand abour Christ.

The Bible says that it is not those who live the Word, nor those who have the Word who get into heaven, rather it is those who have been redeemed by the blood of Christ. It is impossible for someone to be good enough to get into heaven. It would be like someone being athletic enough to jump across the Atlantic ocean; some people are better jumpers than others, but no one could possibly jump far enough to make it to land. You need to use some sort of vehicle to get across the Atlantic, just as you need Jesus Christ to get to Heaven.

It seems that your church relies more on human teachings than on scripture, and I don't much feel like getting into an arguement over whether or not that is a good thing, but I would like you to be aware of the fact that the statements you made are in contradiction with the Bible. (See again John 14:6-7, and have a look through Leviticus and Jesus's restatement of some of the laws in Matthew 5. You'll see that it is impossible for anyone to live up to the standard God has set without relying on Jesus.)

Acculy, the Greek Orthodox Church prides it's self on being the one church that goes strictly by Scripture without latter interpretation and changing. We make it our mission to preserving the original word of God.

Of course no one can get into Heaven alone. What I was saying was, and the Bible supports it, Scriputure supports it, that if you are virtuous, God will take mercy on you and you will be saved. God does not automaticly damn the vast majority of his children for not being born Christain.

Oh! I have an idea, females supposedly contain all of the eggs they will ever produce, so by baptising a female you are also baptising the unferilized eggs... which would make the embryo atleast half baptised o.o
hah, ok just an idea...

That would make sense if the Bible confirmed it, but the Bible actually teaches the doctrine of original sin, meaning human beings are sinful even before they are born (It says this somewhere in the Psalms, but I don't remember exactly where). We all require redemption regardless of what we have done in our lives, so what happens to unborn children who don't have the chance to seek redemption?
I believe the entire purpose of Jesus dying on the cross was to rid humanity of Original Sin, past, present, and future.

I'm an athiest socialist but I thought unbaptised people went to purgatory

so if your a christian (under christianity as a view point) you can go to heaven or you can go to hell. if your not a christian then you can't go to heaven or hell you just go to purgatory. but that might just be non christians who haven't come into contact with christianity

only Catholics believe in purgatory. Christanity is not monlithic, different forms believe different things, like more religions

I believe the Bible speaks clearly on this issue--yet for some reason a lot of ministers claim that they do not know the answer to this question. It is commonly called the age of accountability which means the time that a child knows the difference between good and evil. At this time they become responsible for their sins and rejection of salvation. (A mentally disabled person would go to heaven because they do not know the difference between good and evil.)

There many different ages thrown around anywhere between 0-18 years of age. I do not know the age--it is probably different for every person taking into account the varying circumstances in their life.

Deuteronomy chapter one is the clearest teaching on this issue. The children of Israel were forbidden to enter the promised land because of their unbelief. Yet, God says that the children not knowing good from evil shall enter in.

"Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it," Deuteronomy 1:39.

In the book of 2 Samuel chapter 12 we have another example that a baby goes to heaven when he or she dies. King David wept and prayed for his child when he was alive, yet when the child died he washed his face and ate. When his servants saw this they were perplexed, they asked him why was he not sad anymore. King David replied,"I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."

Here is the scripture in full:

"Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his apparel, and came into the house of the LORD, and worshipped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat. Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? Thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread. And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live? But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me," 2 Samuel 12:20-23.

In the book of Nehemiah we have another example of only those that could understand were held accountable to hearing the Word of God.

"And Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both of men and women, and all that could hear with understanding, upon the first day of the seventh month. And he read therein before the street that was before the water gate from the morning until midday, before the men and the women, and those that could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive unto the book of the law," Nehemiah 8:2-3.

In the book of Isaiah we again have the teaching that there is a point in a child's life when they do not know the difference between good and evil. I believe that it is significant that this is taught in Scripture.

"He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good. For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken," Isaiah 7:15-16.

John MacArthur states the following:

"However, another point may be helpful in answering this question. While infants and children have neither sensed their personal sin and need for salvation nor placed their faith in Christ, Scripture teaches that condemnation is based on the clear rejection of God's revelation-whether general or specific-not simple ignorance of it (Luke 10:16; John 12:48; 1 Thess. 4:8). Can we definitely say that the unborn and young children have comprehended the truth displayed by God's general revelation that renders them "without excuse" (Rom. 1:18-20)? They will be judged according to the light they received. Scripture is clear that children and the unborn have original sin-including both the propensity to sin as well as the inherent guilt of original sin. But could it be that somehow Christ's atonement did pay for the guilt for these helpless ones throughout all time? Yes, and therefore it is a credible assumption that a child who dies at an age too young to have made a conscious, willful rejection of Jesus Christ will be taken to be with the Lord."



2 SAMUEL 12:23—Do those who die in infancy go to heaven?

PROBLEM:

The Scriptures teach that we are born in sin (Ps. 51:5) because we “all sinned [in Adam]” (Rom. 5:12). Yet David implies here that his baby, who died, will be in heaven, saying, “I shall go to him” (v. 23).

SOLUTION:

There are three views regarding children who die before the age of accountability, that is, before they are old enough to be morally responsible for their own actions.

Only Elect Infants Go to Heaven.

Some strong Calvinists believe that only those babies that are predestined go to heaven (Eph. 1:4; Rom. 8:29). Those who are not elect go to hell. They see no greater problem with infant predestination than with adult predestination, insisting that everyone is deserving of hell and that it is only by God’s mercy that any are saved (Titus 3:5–6).

Only Infants Who Would Have Believed Go to Heaven.

Others claim that God knows the end from the beginning (Isa. 46:10) and the potential as well as the actual. Thus, God knows those infants and little children who would have believed in Christ had they lived long enough. Otherwise, they contend, there would be people in heaven who would not have believed in Christ, which is contrary to Scripture (John 3:36). All infants whom God knows would not have believed, had they lived long enough, will go to hell.

All Infants Go to Heaven.

Still others believe that all who die before the age of accountability will go to heaven. They base this on the following Scriptures. First, Isaiah 7:16 speaks of an age before a child is morally accountable, namely, “before the child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good.” Second, David believed in life after death and the resurrection (Ps. 16:10–11), so when he spoke of going to be with his son who died after birth (2 Sam. 12:23), he implied that those who die in infancy go to heaven. Third, Psalm 139 speaks of an unborn baby as a creation of God whose name is written down in God’s “book” in heaven (vv. 14–16). Fourth, Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God” (Mark 10:14), thus indicating that even little children will be in heaven. Fifth, some see support in Jesus’ affirmation that even “little ones” (i.e., children) have a guardian angel “in heaven” who watches over them (Matt. 18:10). Sixth, the fact that Christ’s death for all made little children savable, even before they believed (Rom. 5:18–19). Finally, Jesus’ indication that those who did not know were not morally responsible (John 9:41) is used to support the belief that there is heaven for those who cannot yet believe, even though there is no heaven for those who are old enough and refuse to believe (John 3:36).

I personally believe in the third view, as it seems to me to be the most logical and the most merciful. And God is merciful.....and I think that this mercy would apply to unborn children, too.

aye

Alright, I'm a little confused about something.
According to you, an embryo is a human being right from the start, yes?
Also, a human being has to accept Jesus as their saviour to enter Heaven, yes?
So if we add these two factors together then all aborted foetuses- be they from natural miscarriages or deliberate abortion attempts- are going to hell.
So this means that God made each embryo, then decided to destroy it before it had a chance to be saved and then sent it to hell.
Seeing as approx. 78% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscarriage#Prevalence) doesn't it seem a little bit harsh of God to doom eight tenths of all people to an eternity of suffering?

Children who have not reached the age of reason (about 6-8 years of age) are not held accountable by God. If they die before reaching that age they will enter heaven

God made each embroy but he did not decide to destroy it and if it is destroyed will go to heaven.

Yes they are.
John 14:6- I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me

John 3:16- "For God so loved THE WORLD that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
God does love the whole world, John 14:6 is saying that you can only get into heaven through Jesus, not that God only loves christians.

And you don't need to accept Jesus to get into Heaven, even the Bible says that.

Would you mind quoting me Book, Chapter and Verse on that?

And you don't need to accept Jesus to get into Heaven, even the Bible says that.

I'd like to know where this comes from too....as I've never seen ANYTHING in the Bible to suggest this, and have actually seen more evidence to reject that belief.

Celtlund & Amaranthine Nights:

Read my previous post....it gives some Bible passages that determine different points of view on this subject

If you'd ever read the bible, you'd understand. Children do have a free pass of sort, but it's not quite like that. You're born innocent, and without knowledge of good or evil. If a child is brought up in an atheist home or still in the womb, for that matter, they aren't held liable. Until a person is of a reasonable age to where they can understand who God is own their own they aren't held liable at all. So if you're an embryo, you go to heaven; if you're a young child raised in a non-christian home, if you died at that young age you'd go to heaven.

Also, the embryo isn't the start of life. Life is an ever-going cycle that has never ended since the beginning of time. Sperm are alive. So essentially live sperm would go from a live man to a live woman to produce a live embryo that would ultimately produce a live child.

Any more questions?

Here's a link to a Christian site that deals with this issue: http://www.christianliferesources.com/cgi-bin/dcisDisplay.pl?webpage&pageID=983

Basically, it says that the Bible is silent on the issue, but that we can have faith that God is just and will not treat unborn children unfairly. The implication seems to be that we need not know what happens to unborn children who die, but that we ought to be more concerned with the state of our own salvation.

I'm inferring from that that curiousity is bad and that you should only worry about yourself rather than other people.

Comforting!

I'm sorry, that just doen't sit right with me, and goes against all I know abour Jesus and God.

Also, I remember the preist gave a sermon to this effect one time, I forget the passage, but it was something like "it is those who live the Word (virtuous people), not those who have the Word (Christains) who will get the kingdom of Heaven"
It went on to say that if you do good, even if you don't accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, that means you had good in your heart, and are of God.

But maby we Greeks have a different outlook then the Cathlics or Proastants. I certainly think the version I heard makes more sence, it just feels more right to me, knowing what I know and understanding what I understand abour Christ.

In the old testament, when we were under the law, not the "word" good deeds and God alone WOULD have gotten you into heaven. But because Jesus is part of the holy trinity (father, son, and holy ghost), Jesus is God on earth, literally. Hence the verse that says no man can come unto his father but by him. Which means now that we're free from the old testament laws of God (passover, as such) we need to accept that Christ died to clear us of our sins, and to make it where we no longer needed to sacrifice to be forgiven. As such, Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice, so we don't need sacrifices and rituals and the law anymore. (Law being good deeds and rituals)

*Well, we still need the good deeds, because we can't truly follow the word of God without them.*

I'm inferring from that that curiousity is bad and that you should only worry about yourself rather than other people.

Comforting!

I don't know where that source came from, but you have to read deeper into the text to understand that all of that is addressed. Yes, we should be worried about our own personal salvation, but if you actually READ the bible, it explains why they won't go to hell.

According to the bible, Children have a free pass to heaven because they are innocent and do not yet understand the error in their ways.

Everyone:

Please read my orginal answer to this post...as it cites specific Bible passages.

Celtlund & Amaranthine Nights:

Read my previous post....it gives some Bible passages that determine different points of view on this subject

I read your post, and I tend to agree with the view that children unable to determine right from wrong will get into heaven. However, a blanket statement like the one Katzistanza made is dangerous, as it makes it seem like just any average joe that's done good things can get into heaven. If the poster meant to say that children who've not yet obtained the ability to discern right from wrong can make it into heaven, then he/she should have elaborated, but the statement made seemed to suggest otherwise. If I'm wrong about it, then I apologize, but it's important not to hold that misconception.

Only Elect Infants Go to Heaven.

Some strong Calvinists believe that only those babies that are predestined go to heaven (Eph. 1:4; Rom. 8:29). Those who are not elect go to hell. They see no greater problem with infant predestination than with adult predestination, insisting that everyone is deserving of hell and that it is only by God’s mercy that any are saved (Titus 3:5–6).

Only Infants Who Would Have Believed Go to Heaven.

Others claim that God knows the end from the beginning (Isa. 46:10) and the potential as well as the actual. Thus, God knows those infants and little children who would have believed in Christ had they lived long enough. Otherwise, they contend, there would be people in heaven who would not have believed in Christ, which is contrary to Scripture (John 3:36). All infants whom God knows would not have believed, had they lived long enough, will go to hell.


I don't really understand Calvinists... but if God would know if they would've chosen to believe in him or not, then God already knows that they would never live long enough to choose in the first place, hence my belief that all under the age of accountability go to heaven.

Lands de Friedens:

I don't believe that theory either...but it is a different take on the subject and I thought it only fair to post all of the theories of this....I believe the third theory....where babies and unborn children would go to heaven.

Lands de Friedens:

I don't believe that theory either...but it is a different take on the subject and I thought it only fair to post all of the theories of this....I believe the third theory....where babies and unborn children would go to heaven.

Aside from Christ, you might just be my hero.

Lands de Friedens:

Awwww....you're a sweetheart!! :)

I'd love to provide you with chapter and verse, but as I said, I heard it in church, and do not know the chapter and verse.

I find the idea that you are condemed to eternal suffering simply for being born into the wrong religion, or in the wrong part of the world, not at all in line with God's infinate mercy and love for all His children. You don't have to accept it, but I know what I heard, and more importantly, I know what rings true in my soul, I know what God tells me is true.

I'd love to provide you with chapter and verse, but as I said, I heard it in church, and do not know the chapter and verse.

I find the idea that you are condemed to eternal suffering simply for being born into the wrong religion, or in the wrong part of the world, not at all in line with God's infinate mercy and love for all His children. You don't have to accept it, but I know what I heard, and more importantly, I know what rings true in my soul, I know what God tells me is true.

Believing everything that your church tells you is truly bad practice, you should always look in the Bible yourself to find the truth. As for being "born into" the wrong religion, I think you need to take a closer look at christianity. You aren't born a christian. Becoming a christian isn't a matter of your country, or who your parents worshipped, or going to the right church. A christian is one thing, and one thing only, a person who's accepted Christ as their savior. God is a loving God, but a just one, and unfortunately, if you don't accept that you aren't good enough to get into heaven alone, and that you need the redeeming blood of Jesus, then you'll recieve your eternal punishment. God's truth is contained in his word, and primarily that is where you should find what he's "telling you". I know you would feel a lot better thinking that everybody's going to heaven, regardless of their religious affiliation....but it's a belief unfounded in scripture, and a dangerous one to hold as a christian.

Katzistanza:

In regards to the salvation of people who have not heard the Gospel that are over the age of accountability:

All people are accountable to God whether they have “heard about Him” or not. The Bible tells us that God has clearly revealed Himself in nature (Romans 1:20) and in the hearts of people (Ecclesiastes 3:11). The problem is that the human race is sinful; we all reject this knowledge of God and rebel against Him (Romans 1:21-23). Apart from God's grace, God would give us over to the sinful desires of our hearts, allowing us to discover how useless and miserable life is apart from Him. This He does for those who reject Him (Romans 1:24-32).



In reality, it is not that some people have not heard about God. Rather, the problem is that they have rejected what they have heard and what is readily seen in nature. Deuteronomy 4:29 proclaims, “But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul.” This verse teaches an important principle: everyone who truly seeks after God will find Him. If a person truly desires to know God, God will make Himself known.



The problem is, “there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God” (Romans 3:11). People reject the knowledge of God that is present in nature and in their own heart, and instead decide to worship a “god” of their own creation. It is foolish to debate the fairness of God sending someone to hell who never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel of Christ. People are responsible to God for what God has already revealed to them. The Bible says that people reject this knowledge, and therefore God is just in condemning them to hell.



Instead of debating the fate of those who have never heard, we, as Christians, should be doing our best to make sure that they hear. We are called to spread the Gospel throughout the nations (Matthew 28:19-20; Acts 1:8). The fact that we know people reject the knowledge of God revealed in nature must motivate us to proclaim the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ. Only through accepting the Gospel of God’s grace through the Lord Jesus Christ can people be saved from their sins and rescued from an eternity apart from God in hell.



If we assume that those who never hear the Gospel are granted mercy from God, we will run into a terrible problem. If people who never hear the Gospel are saved…we should make sure that no one ever hears the Gospel. The worst thing we could do would be share the Gospel with a person and have him or her reject it. If that were to happen, he or she would be condemned. People who do not hear the Gospel must be condemned, or else there is no motive for evangelism. Why run the risk of people possibly rejecting the Gospel and condemning themselves – when they were previously saved because they had never heard the Gospel?

believing everything your Bible says is also a bad practice. I don't believe everything I hear in church, but passages are read straight out of the Bible. I take what I hear in church, what is in the Bible, and what I feel in my soul to be true. Have you even felt the presence of God? I have. Some things I am uncertain about, but some things God makes me certain.

As for the being born into thing: what I ment was, if a kid is born in India into a Hindu family, in a Hindu environment, what are the chances that he will become a Christain? Slim to nil. So, in essence, he is damned from the moment he is born, without ever having the chance to avoid eternal suffering.

I have heard, from the Bible, that those who do virtue will be saved, because it means that they had God in their hearts. This, I have strugled over, this I have pondered over, and, in the end, I believe this is what God has told me is true.

Like I said, you don't have to accept it, but I'm not going to change my mind here. I know what rings true in my soul.

Woodsprites:

I was not saying that if you have never heard the Gosple you have a free pass to Heaven. What I said was that if you never heard the Gosple, and you are virtuous, and act according to God's laws, then you will be saved, because it means that you had God in your heart. If you never heard, and do evil, you are judged thusly.

Katzistanza:

I don't think that believing everything in your Bible is a bad thing....I think mis-interpreting your Bible is a bad thing...and that is why professional clergy are there to help guide us in this journey through the Bible.

I'm going to remain silent of the whole issue, as I'm a Unitarian Universilist Christian.

I don't even want to know why, but there are more Wiccans then Unitarian Universalist Christians. I don't even want to know why.

What is a Unitarian Universalist Christian?

Seeing as approx. 78% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscarriage#Prevalence) doesn't it seem a little bit harsh of God to doom eight tenths of all people to an eternity of suffering?

You need to read a little more carefully.
First, it does not say 78% of pregnancies end in miscarriage. It does say Up to 78% of all conceptions may fail

Second The book that that was quoted from was written in 1975. The stats may have changed by now.

According to the stats you quoted 3 of my parents 4 childeren should have been miscarriages, but we are all here.



and it also states About 25% of women will experience one in their lives. meaning a miscarriage.


And you can not go to hell since it does not exsist.

A Unitarian is one that believes God and Jesus are seperate entities, and doesn't believe the Holy Trinity. (I don't understand how you can be your own son. Now, that's creepy.)

A Universalist, is someone who believes that Kind and Loving God wouldn't condemn ANYONE to hell, and basically everyone's going to Heaven.

I had to put in the Christian Part, because only 13% of Unitarian Universalists are Christians, and only .3% of the population are Unitarians Universalists. So basically, we're an extreme minority. :D

Serapindal:

Where does the Bible fit into your beliefs?

Just like many Christians. I do take it as the closest guide as you can get, even I know that it can't be 100% accurate. It could have lost it's meaning over the time, some people could have corruptly changed it, and don't forget that it was written by men, not by God. There could have been some parts lost, or taken out of context, or etc.

I basically follow a part of the bible, unless it contradicts another part (it happens). Then I use my own judgement to decide which one to follow, and I pray that my judgement is guided by God.

Originally Posted by Le MagisValidus
I'm not too certain as I'm not a very religion person myself, but I believe that until a child becomes more or less "intelligent", and can distinguish right from wrong yet make conscious decisions to do wrong (usually at age 3-4), they are without sin. And since sin is the only thing keeping people from heaven and god, straight up they go.

I thought according to Christian belief that all are born with sins (the Adam and Eve thing) and that is what Baptism was for, to clean the sins away.

Doesn't it seem a little bit harsh of God to doom eight tenths of all people to an eternity of suffering?

*looks through Bible*

...Are we talking about the same God here?

I do not know if a fetus has a soul, but I can't imagine God sending an innocent soul to Hell.

And you don't need to accept Jesus to get into Heaven, even the Bible says that. Christains arn't the only ones who get God's love and mercy

Actually, according to this here (http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=408148&lastnode_id=124) and the concept of Orginal Sin, no.

Serapindal:

Actually, most Christians believe that the Bible is complete and innerrant...and I don't believe that the Bible contradicts itself anywhere. I have yet to find somewhere where it does...and I know my Bible....the Bible is very clear that NOT everyone is going to heaven....the Holy Trinity is beyond human comprehension...but it is very clear in the Bible and it just IS.

ok... really... the reason that we have to accept Christ as our Savior is that we have sinned, and we must have someone that will cover for our sins, and if you want to talk about that later then we will but for the sake of this forum, common sense would tell us that a fetus would not have sinned. Therefore, it doesnt need to accept christ because it doesnt need to be saved for anything

Katzistanza:

I don't think that believing everything in your Bible is a bad thing....I think mis-interpreting your Bible is a bad thing...and that is why professional clergy are there to help guide us in this journey through the Bible.

Do you know how may times the Bible has been translated, mistranslater, intentiaonlly changed throughout the years? Especially before the printing press, when there were very few copies, it was easy for kings and tyrants to change parts of it to fit their likeing or lifestyles or interpretations. We even have many different versions of the Bible today.

As for the contradictions, part of that can be explained by the changes throughout the years, and part because it was ment to. The porpose of the Bible, or any religious guide, is to convey meaning of something beyond human reconing. It is, in a way, a set of symbolism to get you thinking on the higher level, the level of God, to push you to a deeper understanding.


Actually, according to this here (http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=408148&lastnode_id=124) and the concept of Orginal Sin, no.

Yes, I see, that's their interpretation. That's not what I took away from the Bible.

Katzistanza:

You say that the Bible has been mistranslated...my, what an accusation....which versions are mistranslations?....do you have documentation that says that they are mistranslations....and please cite for me some examples of contradictions in the Bible....you see, the interesting thing about the Bible is that a) one needs to read it in context to the culture of the time period....there are many references in the Bible that one wouldn't get unless you knew the culture behind the reference....b) every translation of the Bible that Christians accept and use has been translated right from the original texts.....For instance the New International Version was not translated from the King James version...it was translated right from the original texts that were written in the original languages. c) yes, it is hard to translate from the original texts to English/German/French/Spanish and so forth...why?....well, for instance, the Greeks had four words to describe the word "love"....but they all mean a different type of love...and any biblical scholar who has translated the Bible would have known the original languages in order to translate it in the first place....d) how do we know that the English/German/French/Spanish Bible that we read is not a mistranslation?....Well, all of the mainstream churches have clergy who HAVE to learn Greek and Hebrew when they are in seminary school....so they CAN read the original texts and verify the translation is correct.

So if you have proof of your accusations, please share them with me....otherwise, you may want to do a bit more research BEFORE you talk about mistranslating the Bible the and contradictions that are supposedly in it.

Yes, the Bible is always right, that's why there are so many versions of it . <_< >_>

Anyways, you also can't take it completely literally. I mean, seven days? Even I'm doubtful of that. Seven human days is a joke, but a day to God could be an entire Era. It was right about many things.

It said that life was first in the water...hey!

It said that Eve was created with Adam's Rib. Hmm...Men have one less rib them Women.

Lots of reasons, but something passed down for 2000 years can't be realible. The Original could not even BE the original at all.

the "days" thing is a common mistranslation. The word used in Genesis is a Hebrew word meaning "a length of time of unspecified dimentions." It just means God created earth in 7 segments. Interestingly enough, what science tells us about the evolution of the planet syncs up with the order given in Genesis

It said that Eve was created with Adam's Rib. Hmm...Men have one less rib them Women.

Incorrect. Men and women have exactly the same number of bones. This is entirely a Christian myth.