NationStates Jolt Archive

I've heard it fairly frequently said that life is a gift, and that children should be respectful of their parents for giving them this gift. I've never really understood this.

Imagine a conveyor belt. On one end of the conveyor belt is a flamethrower/sharp spikes/something else terribly unpleasant. At the other end is candy/sex/something else nice or pleasant.

I'm going to drop you on this conveyor belt and start it, at which juncture it will pull you towards the nastiness. You have three real options:

Don't run at all, and you'll be dragged into the flamethrower/spikes and suffer.

Run, but only hard enough so that you aren't dragged into the trap.

Run hard enough to reach the goodies on the other side.

If you settle for the 1st option, you will suffer horribly. If you settle for the 2nd option, you will not suffer, but will be required to constantly fight to prevent the suffering. If you decide on the 3rd option, you'll be happy, but you must fight very hard to achieve this happiness, and if you ever stop working for it, you'll fall back and suffer.

As you've probably guessed, this is an allegory for life.

The problem with the idea of life as a gift is that by default, if you are unwilling to invest substantial energies en perpetuity, you will suffer.

You can invest only some energies, to keep yourself at a level of non-suffering but not actually being happy -- but this isn't free, either. You still are forced to carry a burden you did not ask for, solely to prevent suffering that wouldn't have been a problem without the 'gift', and the struggle doesn't end until you die.

Or, if you feel particularly ambitious, you can invest large sums of time and energy into ensuring you will not only not suffer, but also achieve happiness.

It is my opinion, then, that life is a burden -- not a gift. You can turn that burden into happiness with hard work, but by default you will only suffer for the receiving of the 'gift'.

And personally, I see no reason to be thankful to someone for dropping a burden on me, and assuming I will be content to spend my life carrying it for the hopes of it being worth it in the long run.

Then again, I could just be a cynical bastard. :p Thoughts? Insults?? Unsolicited bulk commerical advertisements???

No one in the world
ever gets what they want
and that is beautiful

Everybody dies
frustrated and sad
and that is beautiful

IMHO life is what you make it, and, life is too short to dwell. To me life is not a burden, neither is it a gift - it is a learning curve, a joy of learning and the roads lead you down your path. Pretty exciting really if you think about it.

I think you hit the nail on the head somewhere around 'cynical bastard'. I guess it's all a matter of opinion. Just imagine what it'd be like if you weren't alive. You wouldn't have this burden, but at the same time you wouldn't have a chance at happiness since you'd be non-existent. Can you imagine not existing? Neither can I.

Think of every single instance of happiness in your life. Think of when you had fun with your friends, when you ate a really good dinner, and the last time you had really good sex. Would you have it so that those things had never happened in exchange for this burden never having been given to you? If you wouldn't then it's not really a burden, is it?

Think of when you had fun with your friends, when you ate a really good dinner, and the last time you had really good sex. Would you have it so that those things had never happened in exchange for this burden never having been given to you?In a heartbeat. Absolutely, 100%, yes.

Think of every single instance of happiness in your life. Think of when you had fun with your friends, when you ate a really good dinner, and the last time you had really good sex. Would you have it so that those things had never happened in exchange for this burden never having been given to you? If you wouldn't then it's not really a burden, is it?

Actually, the option of never having existed at all in exchange for all the happiness, joy and pleasure - along with all the bad sounds like a good deal. In my opinion, if death is a situation where we "cease to be" then I would gladly trade death for life.

I have to post here an even better allegory for life:

"There is an Eastern fable, told long ago, of a traveler overtaken on a plain by an enraged beast. Escaping from the beast he gets into a dry well, but sees at the bottom of the well a dragon that has opened its jaws to swallow him. And the unfortunate man, not daring to climb out lest he should be destroyed by the enraged beast, and not daring to leap to the bottom of the well lest he should be eaten by the dragon, seizes s twig growing in a crack in the well and clings to it. His hands are growing weaker and he feels he will soon have to resign himself to the destruction that awaits him above or below, but still he clings on. Then he sees that two mice, a black one and a white one, go regularly round and round the stem of the twig to which he is clinging and gnaw at it. And soon the twig itself will snap and he will fall into the dragon's jaws. The traveler sees this and knows that he will inevitably perish; but while still hanging he looks around, sees some drops of honey on the leaves of the twig, reaches them with his tongue and licks them. So I too clung to the twig of life, knowing that the dragon of death was inevitably awaiting me, ready to tear me to pieces; and I could not understand why I had fallen into such torment. I tried to lick the honey which formerly consoled me, but the honey no longer gave me pleasure, and the white and black mice of day and night gnawed at the branch by which I hung. I saw the dragon clearly and the honey no longer tasted sweet. I only saw the unescapable dragon and the mice, and I could not tear my gaze from them. and this is not a fable but the real unanswerable truth intelligible to all."

"White elephants" are gifts too. Since you don't "pay" anything for life (upkeep costs, maybe, but no initial ones) it is de facto a "gift".

Master Ittei said, "If one were to sy what it is to do good, in a single word it would be to endure suffering. Not enduring is bad without exception."

Lord Naoshige said, "An ancestor's good and evil can be determined by the conduct of his descendants." A descendant should act in a way that will manifest the good in the ancestor and not the bad. This is filial piety.

Human life is truly a short affair. It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like. But it is important never to tell this to young people as it is something that would be harmful if incorrectly understood...

-Hagakure

When I was 15, I spent two weeks at the North Carolina beach. A great storm had gathered overhead, with purple-gray thunderclouds migrating in from the west. My friends and I decided to brave the surf, swimming among storm-fed waves that measured meters in height. Many times we were caught by towering waves and dashed against the sandy bottom, and a rip tide almost pulled us out to sea, but we had a hell of a time.

And then it was over. I remember staring out at the vast ocean while a light rain fell on me and a steady breeze brushed through my hair. Above was a greyish green blanket of cloud, across the horizon lay the light blue of the Atlantic, and behind me the afternoon sun shone upon my back in golden beams of light. I was held tranquile by it all, captived by the wonder around me.

It was a moment like none other, happy and somber at the same time, melancholy and joy wrapped together as one. It was true beauty. Since that day I have witnessed the coral reefs of Hawaii, the rocky cliffs of California, the sunny sands of Aruba, but nothing has compared to that rainy day on a North Carolina beach.

I would trade the rest of my life to spend an eternity in that moment undisturbed.

"There is an Eastern fable, told long ago, of a traveler overtaken on a plain by an enraged beast. Escaping from the beast he gets into a dry well, but sees at the bottom of the well a dragon that has opened its jaws to swallow him. And the unfortunate man, not daring to climb out lest he should be destroyed by the enraged beast, and not daring to leap to the bottom of the well lest he should be eaten by the dragon, seizes s twig growing in a crack in the well and clings to it. His hands are growing weaker and he feels he will soon have to resign himself to the destruction that awaits him above or below, but still he clings on. Then he sees that two mice, a black one and a white one, go regularly round and round the stem of the twig to which he is clinging and gnaw at it. And soon the twig itself will snap and he will fall into the dragon's jaws. The traveler sees this and knows that he will inevitably perish; but while still hanging he looks around, sees some drops of honey on the leaves of the twig, reaches them with his tongue and licks them. So I too clung to the twig of life, knowing that the dragon of death was inevitably awaiting me, ready to tear me to pieces; and I could not understand why I had fallen into such torment. I tried to lick the honey which formerly consoled me, but the honey no longer gave me pleasure, and the white and black mice of day and night gnawed at the branch by which I hung. I saw the dragon clearly and the honey no longer tasted sweet. I only saw the unescapable dragon and the mice, and I could not tear my gaze from them. and this is not a fable but the real unanswerable truth intelligible to all."Definitely better written than mine. o.o; Still, I'm not so sure that happiness has to dissipate as death nears. Might just be me, though.

Life is a suffering because you consider life as a gift. Your sufferings are real bacause you take the pleasures and joy as real. So when these are taken away you feel you are suffering. And when you don't get it, you feel you are suffering.

When in truth, you never actually enjoy and you never actually suffer. :)

"White elephants" are gifts too. Since you don't "pay" anything for life (upkeep costs, maybe, but no initial ones) it is de facto a "gift".Does the elephant cause you to suffer if you do not expend energy to prevent such? If not, sadly I have to say the example doesn't line up well.

You can't just sit back in life and not suffer. In the very least, you need food and shelter. That involves money. Money involves work. Work involves learning/training. Etc. Just a rough example, but you get the picture. The elephant can be ignored to no pain to yourself; life cannot.

And that's quite deep, Khudros.

Definitely better written than mine. o.o; Still, I'm not so sure that happiness has to dissipate as death nears. Might just be me, though.

Well, you eventually become desensitized to anything that gives you pleasure, given enough time. What I want to know is whether, given enough time, those thing you were once desensitized to would become new and fresh once again. No one has ever lived long enough to answer that question.

i dont find life to be a burden

i dont find your analogy to be accurate for anyone prosperous and physically capable enough to have a computer with internet access.

but no, life is not a gift. there was no YOU to give it to when your parents conceived you. they were selfishly deciding to further their own supposed pleasure in this life. through sex and/or through having a child. you are their gift to themselves in their notion that having a baby was a good idea.

if you find yourself constantly in despair over the quality of your life you might want to get professional help. life is, for the most part, well worth the trouble it takes to live it.

When I was 15, I spent two weeks at the North Carolina beach. A great storm had gathered overhead, with purple-gray thunderclouds migrating in from the west. My friends and I decided to brave the surf, swimming among storm-fed waves that measured meters in height. Many times we were caught by towering waves and dashed against the sandy bottom, and a rip tide almost pulled us out to sea, but we had a hell of a time.

And then it was over. I remember staring out at the vast ocean while a light rain fell on me and a steady breeze brushed through my hair. Above was a greyish green blanket of cloud, across the horizon lay the light blue of the Atlantic, and behind me the afternoon sun shone upon my back in golden beams of light. I was held tranquile by it all, captived by the wonder around me.

It was a moment like none other, happy and somber at the same time, melancholy and joy wrapped together as one. It was true beauty. Since that day I have witnessed the coral reefs of Hawaii, the rocky cliffs of California, the sunny sands of Aruba, but nothing has compared to that rainy day on a North Carolina beach.

I would trade the rest of my life to spend an eternity in that moment undisturbed.
that was a beautiful post

"A man walking across a field encountered a tiger. He fled, the tiger chasing after him.

Coming to a cliff, he caught hold of a wild vine and swung himself over the edge. The tiger sniffed at him from above. Terrified, the man looked down to where, far below, another tiger had come, waiting to eat him.

Two mice, one white and one black, little by little began to gnaw away at the vine.

The man saw a lucscious strawberry near him.

Grasping the vine in one hand, he plucked the berry with the other.

How sweet it tasted!"

Sydenzia, I suggest finding a quiet spot and reflect on your life. Life is only a burden if you make it so.

you look at the lump of clay, but instead of imagining it to be a castle, or a statue, you only see the lump and wonder "why isn't it a sculpture worthy of praise and fortune."

You are the sculptor of your life, you put into your life, what you want out of it, friends, family, experiences... If you want something beautiful, then you must make something beautiful. but to sit back and say "life is not worth it" because you don't even attempt to work your life is lazy and selfish.

and if you look at your life and don't see anything you can be proud of, don't blame your parents, for all they did was set the lump before you and yes, they also give you the idea on how to start shaping it. but the ultimate, the only sculptor of your life, is you.

Well, you eventually become desensitized to anything that gives you pleasure, given enough time. What I want to know is whether, given enough time, those thing you were once desensitized to would become new and fresh once again. No one has ever lived long enough to answer that question.Touché. I don't think you can ever get back that feeling, though... just as there is a special feeling in riding a roller coaster for the first time, but each time there after isn't as special, I'm not sure you can ever really fully relive the experiences of the past.

i dont find your analogy to be accurate for anyone prosperous and physically capable enough to have a computer with internet access.

I have a computer because I carried the burden. The computer and my physical health didn't fall into my lap, I had to work for them, and I have to continue to work to sustain them. As long as I continue to fight for these things, I can keep them.

I have to post here an even better allegory for life:
heh, depressed people should not read Russian classics...

-snip-
your analogy is quite good but it assumes that working hard for material posessions or to fuel one's ambitions in this manner are the only road(s) to happiness.
there are other routes


i believe life to be nothing more than a journey - it is not a race by any means (although some do treat it as such). you are born, and you will die - the bits in between are just this journey to do with as you please within the realms of ethics and morality, of course

and if you look at your life and don't see anything you can be proud of, don't blame your parents, for all they did was set the lump before youIt's the same kind of logic as before: elephants, clay, etc... I can ignore these things, expend no effort whatsoever on them, and never be worse for having done so. You can't say the same about life.

If you don't believe me, try going for two weeks without doing anything that involves effort whatsoever to keep your happiness -- eating, working, bathing, etc.

Now try going two weeks without doing something optional to gain happiness -- i.e. having an elephant, molding clay, and see if you're really worse off then you were before.

Life isn't a choice. It's thrust upon you, you suffer through inaction, and death is the only release from it. Clay, on the other hand, is just a lump of clay.

I've heard it fairly frequently said that life is a gift, and that children should be respectful of their parents for giving them this gift. I've never really understood this.

Imagine a conveyor belt. On one end of the conveyor belt is a flamethrower/sharp spikes/something else terribly unpleasant. At the other end is candy/sex/something else nice or pleasant.

I'm going to drop you on this conveyor belt and start it, at which juncture it will pull you towards the nastiness. You have three real options:

Don't run at all, and you'll be dragged into the flamethrower/spikes and suffer.

Run, but only hard enough so that you aren't dragged into the trap.

Run hard enough to reach the goodies on the other side.

If you settle for the 1st option, you will suffer horribly. If you settle for the 2nd option, you will not suffer, but will be required to constantly fight to prevent the suffering. If you decide on the 3rd option, you'll be happy, but you must fight very hard to achieve this happiness, and if you ever stop working for it, you'll fall back and suffer.

As you've probably guessed, this is an allegory for life.

The problem with the idea of life as a gift is that by default, if you are unwilling to invest substantial energies en perpetuity, you will suffer.

You can invest only some energies, to keep yourself at a level of non-suffering but not actually being happy -- but this isn't free, either. You still are forced to carry a burden you did not ask for, solely to prevent suffering that wouldn't have been a problem without the 'gift', and the struggle doesn't end until you die.

Or, if you feel particularly ambitious, you can invest large sums of time and energy into ensuring you will not only not suffer, but also achieve happiness.

It is my opinion, then, that life is a burden -- not a gift. You can turn that burden into happiness with hard work, but by default you will only suffer for the receiving of the 'gift'.

And personally, I see no reason to be thankful to someone for dropping a burden on me, and assuming I will be content to spend my life carrying it for the hopes of it being worth it in the long run.

Then again, I could just be a cynical bastard. :p Thoughts? Insults?? Unsolicited bulk commerical advertisements???
That is an amazingly jaundiced view of life. I feel sorry for you.

I have been through war, a broken marriage, bankruptcy, life-threatening injuries, rejection by my own mother and father; I have been so far down I couldn't see daylight, accused of perfidy I didn't commit, fired from jobs, arrested, and the recipient of attempted robbery and attempted assault.

And after all that, I love life, I love being here to watch things change, I love being around other people ... I consider myself a very happy man.

Go and do thou likewise, young dweeb! :D

Touché. I don't think you can ever get back that feeling, though... just as there is a special feeling in riding a roller coaster for the first time, but each time there after isn't as special, I'm not sure you can ever really fully relive the experiences of the past.
On the other hand, you're not the same person anymore and the experience will definitely be different, maybe a disappointment, maybe a delightful surprise.

That is an amazingly jaundiced view of life. I feel sorry for you.

I have been through war, a broken marriage, bankruptcy, life-threatening injuries, rejection by my own mother and father; I have been so far down I couldn't see daylight, accused of perfidy I didn't commit, fired from jobs, arrested, and the recipient of attempted robbery and attempted assault.

And after all that, I love life, I love being here to watch things change, I love being around other people ... I consider myself a very happy man.

Go and do thou likewise, young dweeb! :DI'm sorry you've had to suffer as you did. It's good that you're happy, however.

I'm not fully sure how this relates to my post... the claim wasn't that happiness was impossible. It was simply that you were forced to work through hardship to earn it -- which you did.

The choice to take on that hardship isn't given to you, you're simply dumped in life and expected to make something of it. If you can, you'll be happy, but if you cannot - or simply do not want to - you will suffer for having had life dumped on you.

So to speak.

I have a computer because I carried the burden. The computer and my physical health didn't fall into my lap, I had to work for them, and I have to continue to work to sustain them. As long as I continue to fight for these things, I can keep them.
what? do you work 80 hours a week at backbreaking labor in order to afford your dsl??

no life isnt free. you have to put in some effort in order to have the good things in life, including your good health.

what kind of upbringing did you have that you consider this unfair?

You can't just sit back in life and not suffer. In the very least, you need food and shelter. That involves money. Money involves work. Work involves learning/training. Etc. Just a rough example, but you get the picture.

This seems to be based off the assumption that everyone is cynical and perhaps lazy, writhing in the agony that is... life. I love to bring home a paycheck. I love the work involved in earning a living for myself and my family. Do I get tired of it occasionally? Of course I do, but that doesn't change the fact that yes, I am grateful for my breath and this feeling behind my eyes that is conciousness. Life is filled with minor irritations, but the simple act of -living- is enough for me. I for one am furiously alive.

Another allegory, kind of:

You're driving on a highway. It's a fine day and, with nowhere in particular to be, you're simply -going-. In front of you is an old junker car, driving along at well below what you consider is an acceptable speed, with no room to pass. You're in no particular hurry, but it starts to nag at you. Why won't this asshole move? Still, you bite your lip and maintain.

Twenty minutes later, you're mad as hell. Why should -you- be cursed with driving on this particular highway behind this particular idiot? Should you just give up? Turn around and head back to whatever shithole you came from? Continue to feel sorry yourself because you're stuck, with plenty of road to drive down, but -something- is in your way?

Hell, you may have missed the turn to something magnificent while you sulked about how ungrateful you were to simply have the option of simply going.

Hydrocodone make me maudlin.... and itchy.

{{EDITED: To add that after reading back, I'm feeling that your entire argument here is 'Why should I have to do anything (such as be grateful for your life) when I could just as easily do nothing by not existing?'

To that I have nothing to reply with, aside from I hope you find something that peaks your interest. I like all kinds of shit. I'm sure you would too.

It's the same kind of logic as before: elephants, clay, etc... I can ignore these things, expend no effort whatsoever on them, and never be worse for having done so. You can't say the same about life.you use the allegory of a threadmill, I use clay. same results, you say you expend effort to get a quality of life you want, same with the clay.

As as with the treadmill, you can get off and still obtain your prize, if you choose to remain on the treadmill and do things the hard way, then the pain of the burden is yours because you chose to do things like that.

As everyone here is telling you, You get out of life what you put in. simple. you don't want to expend that energy, don't expect anything out of it.

So you sit there with your life before you and bitch and moan that it's too hard... blame someone else and try to get a sympatheic free ride... well, good luck then.

If you don't believe me, try going for two weeks without doing anything that involves effort whatsoever to keep your happiness -- eating, working, bathing, etc.

Now try going two weeks without doing something optional to gain happiness -- i.e. having an elephant, molding clay, and see if you're really worse off then you were before.that is what choices are. they are what's used for shaping your life, the choices you make, the friends you choose to have, your family, even your mistakes all go into your life.

Life isn't a choice. It's thrust upon you, you suffer through inaction, and death is the only release from it. Clay, on the other hand, is just a lump of clay.and a threadmill is something you choose to stay on. it has no bearing on life.

Life is a choice, you can choose to live life to the fullest or you can choose not to. no one is forcing you to do anything. the choice is yours.

no life isnt free. you have to put in some effort in order to have the good things in life, including your good health.

Bam, you hit the target. That's it. That right there is what I'm trying to get at.

Life is forced upon you. If you do not want to suffer, you MUST pay a price.

It's not a gift when you have to pay just to keep the 'gift' from causing you to suffer. If the gift didn't make you happy unless you paid a price, but you wouldn't suffer even if you didn't pay, that would be fine.

But anything by which one must pay a price to simply bring things back to how they were beforehand, is a burden.

This seems to be based off the assumption that everyone is cynical and perhaps lazy, writhing in the agony that is... life. I love to bring home a paycheck. I love the work involved in earning a living for myself and my family. Do I get tired of it occasionally? Of course I do, but that doesn't change the fact that yes, I am grateful for my breath and this feeling behind my eyes that is conciousness. Life is filled with minor irritations, but the simple act of -living- is enough for me. I for one am furiously alive.I'm not entirely sure how to break this one down, honestly. There are several different ways to approach what you've said.

First of all, you're correct in assuming that not all aspects of life are bothersome to everyone. I can only generalize.

I believe existence in itself requires suffering. Suffering is inherent to existence. You cannot exist, but not suffer. Everyone suffers to some degree.

The question is not whether you can work through that suffering - what I refer to as the burden - and find happiness despite it.

The question is whether it is a gift to force that suffering upon someone, because if they work through it, they might attain happiness.

Are you really giving them a gift, or are you giving them a burden?

Since it is their struggle against suffering which ultimately decides whether they achieve happiness, all you really gave them was the burden.

Not put too well, but I've never had a knack for putting my thoughts into words.

JuNii, I think I understand where we are not seeing eye to eye.

You believe if a person does not wish to live, they should simply kill themselves? Yes?

Because otherwise, I'm not seeing the choice that exists with the clay. You certainly don't choose to live, and you don't choose to suffer either. Those are de facto aspects of existence. You only choose if you will make something of the life, despite the suffering.

That's not much of a gift, in my mind. A gift shouldn't involve the person paying a price not to suffer.

I have a computer because I carried the burden. The computer and my physical health didn't fall into my lap, I had to work for them, and I have to continue to work to sustain them. As long as I continue to fight for these things, I can keep them.but you choose to carry the burden of getting a computer, you were not forced to get a computer, You also Choose to keep it maintained... again you were not forced.

even in this day and age, you can get by without a pc or the internet.

and who exactly are you 'Fighting'

and yes, your physical health was given to you. the maintenance of your health is up to you .

for people like us, relatively healthy, relatively prosperous, the maintenence of life is a joy to itself. its not a burden to take care of what you have.

there is no gift that doesnt require maintenence. if someone gives you a brand new car, you still have to maintain it or it will break down and be a burden to you. in the meantime, you have the joy of using the car and the self respect and pride of maintaining it properly as an enhancement to your life.

In my opinion, Drunk commies had the truest comment in this entire debacle:

"I hate trying to be philosophical. It never comes out right"

I'm going to try to make a very, very, very, very simple and compact version of my point. I do not expect anyone to agree with it. That's cool.

I would, however, like to clear up the misunderstandings that have come about through my poor explanations in this thread.

At that point I will gracefully bow out of the debate, with utmost respect extended to those who took the time to share their opinions.

Thank you all.

The 3 principles on which my argument exists:

[1] Life is not a choice - dying is.
[2] You cannot live without burden. There will always be a burden: you can only choose the extent and type of your burden.
[3] A gift that inherently forces a burden upon you is not much of a gift.

That's all I'm trying to say, in a nutshell. You can achieve happiness through life, and you can end up suffering through life, but no matter what else you choose, and no matter what else happens: there will always be a mandatory, inherent burden until you die. There's no escaping it.

No gift should impose such a required burden upon its receiver, in my opinion.

Thank you to all once again.

JuNii, I think I understand where we are not seeing eye to eye.

You believe if a person does not wish to live, they should simply kill themselves? Yes?killing oneself is an option. one that too many have taken because they probably feel like you do, that Life is too hard to go on living. instead of looking for options to make life easier, they give up on Life.

Because otherwise, I'm not seeing the choice that exists with the clay. You certainly don't choose to live, and you don't choose to suffer either. Those are de facto aspects of existence. You only choose if you will make something of the life, despite the suffering.have you 'created' anything? drawn a picture, built a piece of furniture or even played with legos? The reason I use clay is because like life, it's final form, the accumilation of lessons learned and experiences felt help shape that clay I call life. I read all these stories where people suffered more than you, yet they still find life not only worth living but find the beauty in life that others take for granted. they took the life that they were given and made something out of it.

That's not much of a gift, in my mind. A gift shouldn't involve the person paying a price not to suffer.Name one gift then, that doesn't involve the recipiant paying any price.

Sydenzia, thank you for challenging us to think about our assumptions on the value of living. we dont often get such a philosophical thread that doesnt dissolve into flames.

Sydenzia, thank you for challenging us to think about our assumptions on the value of living. we dont often get such a philosophical thread that doesnt dissolve into flames.it is interesting to read other people's opinon on life.

Personally, I tend to agree with you that life as we experience it is NOT a gift, but far from it. Of course I'm a philisophical Buddhist, and believe the 4 Noble Truths are just that... the truth:

1. Life means suffering.

To live means to suffer, because the human nature is not perfect and neither is the world we live in. During our lifetime, we inevitably have to endure physical suffering such as pain, sickness, injury, tiredness, old age, and eventually death; and we have to endure psychological suffering like sadness, fear, frustration, disappointment, and depression. Although there are different degrees of suffering and there are also positive experiences in life that we perceive as the opposite of suffering, such as ease, comfort and happiness, life in its totality is imperfect and incomplete, because our world is subject to impermanence. This means we are never able to keep permanently what we strive for, and just as happy moments pass by, we ourselves and our loved ones will pass away one day, too.

2. The origin of suffering is attachment.

The origin of suffering is attachment to transient things and the ignorance thereof. Transient things do not only include the physical objects that surround us, but also ideas, and -in a greater sense- all objects of our perception. Ignorance is the lack of understanding of how our mind is attached to impermanent things. The reasons for suffering are desire, passion, ardor, pursue of wealth and prestige, striving for fame and popularity, or in short: craving and clinging. Because the objects of our attachment are transient, their loss is inevitable, thus suffering will necessarily follow. Objects of attachment also include the idea of a "self" which is a delusion, because there is no abiding self. What we call "self" is just an imagined entity, and we are merely a part of the ceaseless becoming of the universe.

3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.

The cessation of suffering can be attained through nirodha. Nirodha means the unmaking of sensual craving and conceptual attachment. The third noble truth expresses the idea that suffering can be ended by attaining dispassion. Nirodha extinguishes all forms of clinging and attachment. This means that suffering can be overcome through human activity, simply by removing the cause of suffering. Attaining and perfecting dispassion is a process of many levels that ultimately results in the state of Nirvana. Nirvana means freedom from all worries, troubles, complexes, fabrications and ideas. Nirvana is not comprehensible for those who have not attained it.

4. The path to the cessation of suffering.

There is a path to the end of suffering - a gradual path of self-improvement, which is described more detailed in the Eightfold Path. It is the middle way between the two extremes of excessive self-indulgence (hedonism) and excessive self-mortification (asceticism); and it leads to the end of the cycle of rebirth. The latter quality discerns it from other paths which are merely "wandering on the wheel of becoming", because these do not have a final object. The path to the end of suffering can extend over many lifetimes, throughout which every individual rebirth is subject to karmic conditioning. Craving, ignorance, delusions, and its effects will disappear gradually, as progress is made on the path.

I've heard it fairly frequently said that life is a gift, and that children should be respectful of their parents for giving them this gift. I've never really understood this.

Imagine a conveyor belt. On one end of the conveyor belt is a flamethrower/sharp spikes/something else terribly unpleasant. At the other end is candy/sex/something else nice or pleasant.

I'm going to drop you on this conveyor belt and start it, at which juncture it will pull you towards the nastiness. You have three real options:

Don't run at all, and you'll be dragged into the flamethrower/spikes and suffer.

Run, but only hard enough so that you aren't dragged into the trap.

Run hard enough to reach the goodies on the other side.

If you settle for the 1st option, you will suffer horribly. If you settle for the 2nd option, you will not suffer, but will be required to constantly fight to prevent the suffering. If you decide on the 3rd option, you'll be happy, but you must fight very hard to achieve this happiness, and if you ever stop working for it, you'll fall back and suffer.

As you've probably guessed, this is an allegory for life.

The problem with the idea of life as a gift is that by default, if you are unwilling to invest substantial energies en perpetuity, you will suffer.

You can invest only some energies, to keep yourself at a level of non-suffering but not actually being happy -- but this isn't free, either. You still are forced to carry a burden you did not ask for, solely to prevent suffering that wouldn't have been a problem without the 'gift', and the struggle doesn't end until you die.

Or, if you feel particularly ambitious, you can invest large sums of time and energy into ensuring you will not only not suffer, but also achieve happiness.

It is my opinion, then, that life is a burden -- not a gift. You can turn that burden into happiness with hard work, but by default you will only suffer for the receiving of the 'gift'.

And personally, I see no reason to be thankful to someone for dropping a burden on me, and assuming I will be content to spend my life carrying it for the hopes of it being worth it in the long run.

Then again, I could just be a cynical bastard. :p Thoughts? Insults?? Unsolicited bulk commerical advertisements???

Life does not seem to be a gift because it is not. None of us were consulted on being here (much less chose). Were just here and we make of it what we will...

ome would say, Life is what you make of it, everyone is given equal chance - wrong Life's 90% what you GET and 10% what you make it. Everything else is just a lie. If you could really be anything you really wanted and had equal chance at everything, why aren't their millions of ballerina's and firemen crossing the street with you instead of Burger King workers, lawyers, general labor people, and fed ex employees?

It's bullshit and they lie to you worse when you're a child than any other time because you'll believe. you'll belive that you can be the fireman or ballerina if you really want to be and try hard. we comprimse dreams for reality we have to, you're forced to, because you're ill prepared because everyone bullshits you into believing it's not like it is. The truth of the matter is we'll always need someone to flip burgers, that's just how it is. oh how I hate that saying, but its true, "Thats just how it is", "thats how the world works". We grow up thinking everything is black and white, good and evil but when we reach 14/15 we realise everything we've been taught is total bullshit and have to start again. there is no clear cut answe. that's why people don't kill themselves in mass ranks because they keep hanging onto that ideal that someday they'll do this great thing and they won't. I'm a prime example, I put up with all this shit because I think It'll get better, maybe one day I'll wake up and all of this will be a bad dream. its Bullshit, its a self lie the worst kinda lie and I should know better but I don't.

its called hope and Hope Kills, Numbs you up enough to think you'll be something or you'll do something special or meet someone to give your life meaning, it can keep you holding on to a crashing airplain, falling from the sky its engines ablaze your barely holding onto the door with no parashute hoping you'll surive You won't though. thats just how it is. someone before me put tit better: - "Hope isthe last thing we do before we're defeated" - Henry Roilins.

Humans are here to propagate their species, we're no different than any other animal. The only difference is we've made special lies with language to tell each other to keep from destroying ourselves. It's sad, I don't know how anyone can't be depressed these days. Hamlet had it right to a T: - The majority of people don't kill themselves because we don't know what comes next. We made Religion to back us up, there's another life after this, kill yourself or be unproductive and you won't get it. Buuuuullllshitttttt We die like every other thing on this planet, We've just got big enough brains to make up lies to substitue for fact.

cynical? Animals in seclution die, they just give up. thats how thngs are.

If the one you love or thing you love doing never works, you have to start prioritising, and that's how people end up being 34 year old managers at McDonalds. Is a dream just a dream or is it a possibility? people fall into rountine most of us anyway, some people can't though, routine kills them. is the universe chaos laced with reason? or does it even lack that.

"I was nineteen. There was not so much as a strand of gray in my beard. Ihad three pairs of jeans, one pair of boots,the idea that the world was my oyster, and that nothing that happened in the next twenty years proved me wrong. Then, around the age of thirty nine, my troubles set in: drinking, drugs, a road accident that changed the way I walked (among other things). I've written about them at length and need not write about them here. Besides, it's the same for you,right?

The world eventually sends out a mean-ass Patrol Boy to slow your progress and show you who's boss. You reading this have undoubtly met yours(or will); I met mine and I'm sure he'll be back. He's got my address. He's a mean guy, a bad lieutenant, the sworn enemy of goofery and fuckery, pride, ambition, loud music, and all things nineteen. But I still think that's a pretty fine age. Maybe the best age. You can rock and roll all night, but when the music dies out and the beer wears off, you're able to think and dream big dreams. The mean Patrol Boy cuts you down to size eventually, and if you start out small, why, there's almost nothing left but the cuffs of your underpants when he's done with you.

"GOT ANOTHER ONE!" he shouts, and strides on with his citation book in hand. So a little arrogance (or even a lot) isn't such a bad thing, although your mother undoubtedly told you different." ---excerpt, Introduction: The Gunslinger, by Stephen King

I think the Patrol Boy thing is very true. Eventually dreams die. or get killed by the patrol boy, its the Same thing. You get someone pregnant and end up in a dead end job because you have to put food on the table all those dreams of being an astrounaut or all that shit goes out the window. The real world slaps a ticket on your ass, that's the point I'm at now, the Real World has said "this guy was getting to much of a good thing slap a ticket on his arse" and so they sent the mean patrol boy.

"Dream are nothing more than a collection of fantasys that we compromise for reality"

I think dreams are the result of the worlds around us, The options we might have had In another time or place and yes, I believe there are other worlds than this, crazy or no. I also belive that each choice we make all other options are played out in a different universe, it comforting isn't it to think that another Leon in another universe thousands of other universes is living out choices that might have fucked up in this one, its nice to think that one of us out there is happy in a different time, a different place and different universe even.

"I know something's wrong, well everyone I know has got a reason, to say, 'PUT THE PAST AWAY', I wish you would step back from that ledge my friend, you could, capsize from all the lies that you've been living in, and if you do not want to see me again, I would understand." - "Jumper" Third Eye Blind

Cynical? maybe when the patrol boy has visited you, crushed your derams , slapped a ticket on your arse and beat you over the head with his nightstick and your best friend has virtually told you not to bother and its unimportant just cos there life is going ok and dandy and you've lost all hope that the world is not such a shit place and you can't even be with the one you love - then we'll talk.

I completely agree with Sydenzia's first post. Life is inherently a burden. It is only a gift if you strive hard to reach your goals and happen to succeed. I view life as a curse, not a blessing. Death is freedom, life is prison. Unfortunately for us, hope, pain, and survival instinct keeps many from escaping.

Life is a gift that everyone gets and everyone gets a chance to do whatever they want with their life... So its a gift from God!

I completely agree with Sydenzia's first post. Life is inherently a burden. It is only a gift if you strive hard to reach your goals and happen to succeed. I view life as a curse, not a blessing. Death is freedom, life is prison. Unfortunately for us, hope, pain, and survival instinct keeps many from escaping.

I agree with most of that. However, I feel I should point out that you can spend enormous energies and time struggling to achieve goals and be happy, and still fail, through no fault of your own. Life tends to be extremely cynical in that respect.

I think an unasked gift that comes with a catch is rarely a gift at all...

I've heard it fairly frequently said that life is a gift, and that children should be respectful of their parents for giving them this gift. I've never really understood this.

Imagine a conveyor belt. On one end of the conveyor belt is a flamethrower/sharp spikes/something else terribly unpleasant. At the other end is candy/sex/something else nice or pleasant.

I'm going to drop you on this conveyor belt and start it, at which juncture it will pull you towards the nastiness. You have three real options:

Don't run at all, and you'll be dragged into the flamethrower/spikes and suffer.

Run, but only hard enough so that you aren't dragged into the trap.

Run hard enough to reach the goodies on the other side.

If you settle for the 1st option, you will suffer horribly. If you settle for the 2nd option, you will not suffer, but will be required to constantly fight to prevent the suffering. If you decide on the 3rd option, you'll be happy, but you must fight very hard to achieve this happiness, and if you ever stop working for it, you'll fall back and suffer.

As you've probably guessed, this is an allegory for life.

The problem with the idea of life as a gift is that by default, if you are unwilling to invest substantial energies en perpetuity, you will suffer.

You can invest only some energies, to keep yourself at a level of non-suffering but not actually being happy -- but this isn't free, either. You still are forced to carry a burden you did not ask for, solely to prevent suffering that wouldn't have been a problem without the 'gift', and the struggle doesn't end until you die.

Or, if you feel particularly ambitious, you can invest large sums of time and energy into ensuring you will not only not suffer, but also achieve happiness.

It is my opinion, then, that life is a burden -- not a gift. You can turn that burden into happiness with hard work, but by default you will only suffer for the receiving of the 'gift'.

And personally, I see no reason to be thankful to someone for dropping a burden on me, and assuming I will be content to spend my life carrying it for the hopes of it being worth it in the long run.

Then again, I could just be a cynical bastard. :p Thoughts? Insults?? Unsolicited bulk commerical advertisements???



Yeah, you are kind of a cynical bastard, but pleasant despite.

I can't stand people who whine and think their lives are the worst... and that it's a burden. Life is neither a burden nor a gift... 90% of the time it's an accident. I've learned that the best way to deal with accidents, including life, is to not put so much energy in it. (yeah, that's right) That's right, just find something you like doing with your life, and accept small success. Don't waste your time on Saturday morning hangovers waking up next to someone who could or could not be a girl.

It sounds terribly cliche, but life is definitely what you make of it. I used to be one of those losers who thought my life was the worst. So I'd go drink myself into oblivion and wake up the next morning naked swaddled in blankets in some stranger's house. Then I started asking myself what the flippin' point was.... I just learned not to do things if there isn't a logical purpose to it.

heh, depressed people should not read Russian classics...

Good thing I'm not a depressed person, eh? :p


I agree with most of that. However, I feel I should point out that you can spend enormous energies and time struggling to achieve goals and be happy, and still fail, through no fault of your own. Life tends to be extremely cynical in that respect.

Ah, how I wish what you said here wasn't true.

For those who might be shocked, it really is possible to be "suicidal" or simply just prefer the notion of "ceasing to be" over what we know as life - without being depressed.

I'm not a sad guy (although there are days... Then again, that rings true for us all) but I've got my share of grievances, much like everyone else. Single parent struggling to make the bills. Now a college kid, struggling to make the bills. After the 8th call from the bank, the calls start becoming old. "Not funny anymore, 1rst Bank of Colorado!"

Bad jokes aside, the fact is that there are plenty of people disenchanted with life, myself included. I've personally been 'like this' for quite a few years, but it honestly doesn't really bring my quality of living down much (except for the very occasional "Damn... I really wish this would finally end" or "Dear god, let me not wake up" when I wake up or fall asleep in a particularly bad mood). I'm in school (although that's going so badly, it's not even funny. I'm probably screwed for life at this point and will live out the rest of my years as a minimum wage Wal-Mart employee. Paper or Plastic?), have a beautiful girlfriend of over a year, I've got more hobbies than I can shake a stick at (that's also one of my hobbies. Stick shaking.), and a comfortable social network (dwindling, mind you, as I got tired of the constant social scene/parties/etc. Now its down to its core members)

Regardless, I may live my life in hopes that it'll finally just come to an end or that I won't have to continue struggling to make ends meet and question whether it'll ever change, but strangely enough, though it may sound it in my post (I sure do write with that hint of nilism), I am not an unhappy person. Granted, I'm not the happiest, but then again, not everyone can be. Such is life, C'est la vie. Que sera, sera, no? :)

I hear life is how you make it, but that is only part of the equation, seeing as you can end up homeless and still have a relatively happy outlook on life. The point of this "outlook" and "how you make it" are merely ways to help soften the blow when life punches you in the gut. We can all agree that it happens. The point is not to double over and start kicking at the air, whining and crying, clutching for mommy. The point is to stand back up and say, "Time to pack my shit up and keep going". Outlook is when you can shrug that punch off and keep walking. For me, its more a matter of, "I sure hate being punched. Man, I really wish I didn't have to even be in the ring."

I have to agree with the original poster. I'm still waiting for the day when I can say that the whole experience of life was worth it.

Sydenzia, life is a gift because through this life we gain eternal life.

I'm sorry you've had to suffer as you did. It's good that you're happy, however.

I'm not fully sure how this relates to my post... the claim wasn't that happiness was impossible. It was simply that you were forced to work through hardship to earn it -- which you did.

The choice to take on that hardship isn't given to you, you're simply dumped in life and expected to make something of it. If you can, you'll be happy, but if you cannot - or simply do not want to - you will suffer for having had life dumped on you.

So to speak.
I'll tell you the same thing I told my own children when they would run to me with "But it's not fair!"

You weren't born with some engraved certificate that read, "This person is entitled to fair and equal treatment." Life is often unfair. If you want "fair," you have to make "fair" for yourself. Quit moaning, quit complaining, get up, go out, DO something!

You say 'gift' like every gift is something you don't ever have to work with, for, or do anything to once you get it.

Say you get a car as a gift. What happens if you don't mantain it? It breaks. If you don't work for it? It gets sold. If you just let it sit? It rots.

Gifts AREN'T free rides. Even if it's just something like a statue, you will should put in an effort to keep it free of dust or make sure it looks good where you put it.

Life is a gift... in that it's given to you. It's NOT a free ride.