NationStates Jolt Archive

Abortion is one of the safest surgical procedures for women. The risk
of death associated with abortion is approximately 0.6 per 100,000 abortions, and the risk of major complications is less than 1%. (Centers for Disease Control (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5309a1.htm); Alan Guttmacher Institute (http://www.agi-usa.org/presentations/abort_slides.pdf); American Psychological Association (http://www.apa.org/ppo/issues/womenabortfacts.html)).

Abortion is safer than childbirth. The risk of death when a pregnancy is continued to birth is about 11 times as great as the risk of death from induced abortion. Each year, about 10 women, on average, die from induced abortion, compared with about 260 who die from pregnancy and childbirth.(Centers for Disease Control (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5309a1.htm); Alan Guttmacher Institute (http://www.agi-usa.org/presentations/abort_slides.pdf); American Psychological Association (http://www.apa.org/ppo/issues/womenabortfacts.html)).

Further, from the American Psychological Association (http://www.apa.org/ppo/issues/womenabortfacts.html) -- a neutral, authoritative, professional source:

"Abortion may avoid negative health consequences, especially for teenage mothers. Unintended and unwanted childbearing can have negative health consequences, including greater chances for illness for both the mother and child. The adverse consequences of teenagers’ inability to control their childbearing can be particularly severe. Teenage mothers are more likely to suffer toxemia, anemia, birth complications, and death. Babies of teenage mothers are more likely to have low birth weight and suffer birth injury and neurological defects. Such babies are twice as likely to die in the first year of life as babies born to mothers who delay childbearing until after age 20 (Russo & David, 2002)."

"Low risk of psychological harm. Well-designed studies of psychological responses following abortion have consistently shown that risk of psychological harm is low. Some women experience psychological dysfunction following abortion, but post-abortion rates of distress and dysfunction are lower than pre-abortion rates. Moreover, the percentage of women who experience clinically relevant distress is small and appears to be no greater than in general samples of women of reproductive age. A recent study showed not only that rates of disorders, such as depression and posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD), were not elevated in a large sample of 442 women followed for two years post-abortion, but also that the incidence of PTSD was actually lower in women post-abortion than the rate in the general population (Adler et al., 2002)."

"Positive emotions more often experienced. Freely chosen legal abortion, particularly in the first trimester, has not been found to be associated with severe psychological trauma, despite the fact that it occurs in the stressful context of unwanted pregnancy. The time of greatest stress is before the abortion. A woman’s emotional responses after experiencing an unwanted pregnancy terminated by abortion are complex and may involve a combination of positive and negative emotions. Positive emotions are more often experienced, and they are experienced more strongly than negative emotions, both immediately after the abortion and during the months following it (Russo & Zierk, 1992)."

Finally, although you may question or reject the source as biased , these factsheets from Planned Parenthood document the safety of abortion -- within extensive references to neutral sources: The Emotional Effects of Induced Abortion (http://www.plannedparenthood.org/pp2/portal/files/portal/medicalinfo/abortion/fact-010600-emoteff.xml); Medical And Social Health Benefits Since Abortion Was Made Legal In The U.S. (http://www.plannedparenthood.org/pp2/portal/files/portal/medicalinfo/abortion/fact-abortion-medical-social-benefits.xml).


Here is additional evidence (including multiple studies by a variety of experts published in medical journals) that Post-Abortion Syndrome is pure bullshit:
Psychological implications of abortion — highly charged and rife with misleading research (http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/168/10/1257)
Wellbeing and mental growth-long-term effects of legal abortion. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15081205)
The Psychological Effects of First Trimester Abortion (http://www.prochoiceforum.org.uk/psy_research4.asp)
The psychological sequelae of therapeutic abortion--denied and completed (http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/148/5/578)
The effects of induced abortion on emotional experiences and relationships: a critical review of the literature. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14624822) Post Abortion Stress Syndrome (http://www.msmagazine.com/aug01/pas.html)
Therapeutic abortion and its psychological implications: the Canadian experience (http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/abstract/113/8/754)
The Psychological Effects of Abortion for Adolescents (http://www.prochoiceforum.org.uk/psy_research3.asp)
The Relationship of Abortion to Well-Being. Do Race and Religion Make a Difference? (http://www.nlsbibliography.org/qauthor.php3?xxx=RUSSO,+NANCY+FELIPE)
Abortion (http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic5.htm)
Abortion and its Health Effects (http://www.prochoiceforum.org.uk/psy_research1.asp)
Abortion perils debated (http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/169/2/101-c?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=Abortion+and+Psychiatric+Illness+&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1112588833053_5636&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=1&journalcode=cmaj)
When urban adolescents choose abortion: effects on education, psychological status and subsequent pregnancy. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=2620716&dopt=Abstract)
Termination of pregnancy and psychiatric morbidity (http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/abstract/167/2/243)
Abortion, Reproductive History and Substance Abuse (http://www.prochoiceforum.org.uk/psy_research2.asp)
Unwanted childbearing, health, and mother-child relationships. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10513146&dopt=Abstract)Adolescents and adjustment to abortion: are minors at greater risk? (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12953681)
The Public Health Impact of Legal Abortion: 30 Years Later (http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3502503.html)
Abortion, Childbearing, and Women's Well-Being (http://www.prochoiceforum.org.uk/psy_research5.asp)
Testimony of Nada L. Stotland, MD, MPH to the U.S. Senate Subcommittee on Science, Technology and Space (http://www.prch.org/advocacy_policy/stotland.shtml)
Psychological responses of women after first-trimester abortion. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10920466&dopt=Abstract)
Psychological responses after abortion. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=2181664&dopt=Abstract)
Study Challenges Abortion Trauma (http://www.libchrist.com/other/abortion/trauma.html)
Psychological factors in abortion. A review. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1443858&dopt=Abstract)
The Context for the Development of 'Post-Abortion Syndrome' (http://www.prochoiceforum.org.uk/psy_coun9.asp)
Is abortion a health risk? There is no evidence that abortion poses a risk either to women's mental or physical health. (http://www.spiked-online.com/Printable/0000000054E4.htm)
The myth of the abortion trauma syndrome. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1404747&dopt=Abstract)
Emotional response to abortion: a critical review of the literature. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12316615&dopt=Abstract)
Abortion Psychological Sequelae: the debate and the research (http://www.prochoiceforum.org.uk/psy_coun3.asp)
Psychiatric sequelae to term birth and induced early and late abortion: a longitudinal study. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=4156672&dopt=Abstract)
Pregnancy decision making: predictors of early stress and adjustment (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=12345377&dopt=Abstract)
Psychological Responses of Women After First-Trimester Abortion (http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/57/8/777)
Psychological alterations following induced abortion (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=6789186&dopt=Abstract)
Mental health consequences of abortion and refused abortion (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=6989474&dopt=Abstract)
Abortion and the Null Hypothesis (http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/extract/57/8/785)
Psychosocial consequences of therapeutic abortion (http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/abstract/128/1/74?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=abortion&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1112592868160_5389&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=10&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=1)
The psychological complications of therapeutic abortion (http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/abstract/160/6/742?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=abortion&searchid=1112592976946_695&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance)
The psychiatric consequences of spontaneous abortion (http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/abstract/155/6/810?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=abortion&searchid=1112592976946_695&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance)

You might note that these sources do not come from a handful of biased "researchers."

I'll come back to explan and defend tomorrow.

Well, any idiot could have figured that out. :rolleyes:

Bravo. I am getting pretty tired of the anecdotal, pulled out of "guess"-space non-specific references to post-abortion trauma I have been reading here of late.

I've been wondering where you were lately. Glad to see you back Cat-Tribe.

Great source of information, thanks. I'll be sure to keep this thread handy.

1)Where've you been? You've been missed. 2) Nice job, though I already knew the material. 3) As always, I'm impressed.

(looks at the tons of opposition) looks like someone wasted her time. I mean this thread has probably been overdone so many times people lost all sense of caring. Pro-choicers shouting tons of times how the women should have the right and how safe it is. Pro-lifers saying over and over how the baby needs protection, and how all life is precious. Weve heard it all before. wer all tired of this thread. If you want to have an abortion you dont need to feel superior by waving facts in are faces first to feel you have a point. Ive read some of the links and you have good facts here. But cmon the stuff about abortion being safer than child birth? Plain stupid. Its true, but ridiculous ud even put it up there! If no one puts up a pro life arguement ill put one up later on just to make you feel that you didnt waste however much time you spent collecting those links...

I'll have to save this the next time I have to tangle with the anti-crowd.

I do have a slight comment/question though:

Abortion is safer than childbirth. The risk of death when a pregnancy is continued to birth is about 11 times as great as the risk of death from induced abortion. Each year, about 10 women, on average, die from induced abortion, compared with about 260 who die from pregnancy and childbirth.
Are we talking ratios here or direct numbers? If you're doing direct, this doesn't make sense as there are far more births performed in the US than abortions (kinda like how NASA has lost 14 people in the shuttle launches, and the airlines hundreds, but the airlines are safer due to the high volume of flights vs just over 100 shuttle launches).

I'm just wondering if you mis-wrote this or not. And if it is direct comparison, what the ratio might actually be.

Great post.

Sadly, the 'morals' crew object to abortion for a whole other reason.

Great post.

Sadly, the 'morals' crew object to abortion for a whole other reason.
Yes, but this is one of their arguments against it. There's occasionally a pro-life group display at my school (I attend a Catholic high school in Ontario, yea, Catholic. Leave me alone...), and this seems to be half of what they talk about: "don't get an abortion because suddenly you'll be so stressed and depressed that you'll kill yourself" bullshit. I should compile this list and being handing it to them starting next year! It will go nicely with the modifide stickers I made. (The originals say "Abortion stops a beating heard", mine say "Ignorance stops a beating heart: mine" [yes, it is incredibly dumb, but I'm not that creative with words!] :D )

That something is infrequent or has less than a 1 to 1 relationship to its cause does not mean it doesn't exist. There are many syndromes which are rare or infrequent yet they still exist. Not every child whose mother consumed alcohol during pregnancy will be born with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, this does not mean that FAS does not exist, it does. Not every witness to a crime will suffer Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, this does not mean it doesn't exist, it does. The same holds true for Post Abortion Syndrome. In fact, if you do a search on the topic you will find support groups for women who have had abortions (both chosen and spontaneous). Those support groups exist because there are people out there who need them.

This, however, has never been a major argument of the pro-life movement. Neither have the health risks presented to the mother by an abortion been a major argument of the movement. You can present statistics which show the health risks to the mother are low but what the pro life movement really cares about is the following statistics:

number of babies that do not survive delivery in the US: 6.5 per 1,000 births
number of babies that do not survive abortion in the US: 1,000 per 1,000 abortions

number of babies that do not survive delivery in the US: 6.5 per 1,000 births
number of babies that do not survive abortion in the US: 0 per 1,000 abortions

I fixed it for you. Perhaps you should ask Santa for a medical dictionary this Christmas.

I fixed it for you. Perhaps you should ask Santa for a medical dictionary this Christmas.

So, you believe all babies survive their abortions? That's a new one.

So, you believe all babies survive their abortions? That's a new one.

I'd like to see a statistic on how many babies are aborted in the first place.

I'd like to see a statistic on how many babies are aborted in the first place.

It's irrelevant, for every 1,000 aborted 1,000 die. That's what my statistic said. It could be 50 a year or 50,000 a year and it would still hold true. Maybe Im not the one who needs a dictionary? :confused:

Are we talking ratios here or direct numbers? If you're doing direct, this doesn't make sense as there are far more births performed in the US than abortions (kinda like how NASA has lost 14 people in the shuttle launches, and the airlines hundreds, but the airlines are safer due to the high volume of flights vs just over 100 shuttle launches).
Given the sources and the rigors of some of the studies, it's safe to assume that the data is "normalized" and that 11 times is the amount of relative risk for each choice for a given representative of the standard population.

If it's not, in the context of those particular kinds of studies, it'd practically be the same thing as lying.

That's per flight, but what about per mile traveled? Nasa will kick some serious ass on that metric. The trick can also be in how the data is normalized too :).

What I was curious about were the long term emotional/psychological effects of those choices. The links that I read in Cat-Tribe posts didn't really focus on that aspect, which is often where right-to-lifers often base their emotional arguments from (the life one might have had). I should say, that people are resonsible for their choices so even if the effects were profound (which I wouldn't expect) I'd still prefer to err greatly on the side of freedom.

It's irrelevant, for every 1,000 aborted 1,000 die. That's what my statistic said. It could be 50 a year or 50,000 a year and it would still hold true. Maybe Im not the one who needs a dictionary? :confused:

Quick, find a statistic on how many babies are aborted. I bet you can't.

Quick, find a statistic on how many babies are aborted. I bet you can't.

Find it yourself, it isnt relevant to my point and Im not really interested in the answer.

Find it yourself, it isnt relevant to my point and Im not really interested in the answer.

Here's the answer: Zero. Learn what a baby is, compared to a fetus, an embryo, a zygote, a toddler, an infant, a teenager, anything. You say 1,000 out of 1,000 babies do not survive abortion because using the word "babies" evokes emotional reaction better than "1,000 out of 1,000 embryos/fetuses do not survive abortion".

Knock it off you two. :p

Here's the answer: Zero. Learn what a baby is, compared to a fetus, an embryo, a zygote, a toddler, an infant, a teenager, anything. You say 1,000 out of 1,000 babies do not survive abortion because using the word "babies" evokes emotional reaction better than "1,000 out of 1,000 embryos/fetuses do not survive abortion".

The medical community does not hold a monopoly on defining human life. Unborn children are reffered to as babies constantly. It is probably the most widespread term used to describe them. People dont ask pregnant women "is it a male fetus or a female fetus?" they ask "is it a boy or a girl?". Pregnant women dont excitedly pronounce "my fetus started kicking last night!" they say "my baby started kicking last night!". Pregnant women dont refuse a drink by saying "I cant, its bad for my fetus", they say "I cant, its bad for my baby". If you were to catalogue the terms used to describe an unborn child, "baby" would almost without a doubt be the most widely used term.

The medical community does not hold a monopoly on defining human life. Yup. Biological science has some say in it too...

Unborn children are reffered to as babies constantly. It is probably the most widespread term used to describe them. People dont ask pregnant women "is it a male fetus or a female fetus?" they ask "is it a boy or a girl?". Pregnant women dont excitedly pronounce "my fetus started kicking last night!" they say "my baby started kicking last night!". Pregnant women dont refuse a drink by saying "I cant, its bad for my fetus", they say "I cant, its bad for my baby". If you were to catalogue the terms used to describe an unborn child, "baby" would almost without a doubt be the most widely used term.You know, if we started demanding that women start calling their unborn children "fetuses" because that would be the correct term, you'd get on our case for being much to PC. :p

You know, if we started demanding that women start calling their unborn children "fetuses" because that would be the correct term, you'd get on our case for being much to PC. :p

The point is, I was using a term that you haven't denied (and would probably look dumb if you did) is the most widespread and common term used to reffer to an unborn child. I stand by my original statement, 1,000 of every 1,000 babies aborted dies.

I'm not going to get into the whole pro/anti discussion again. It's always the same people, in the same camps, posting the same arguments and no one gives credit to the opposing side. I do find it interesting that one of your main sources of info, Alan Guttmacher Institute, is one that I used for a pro-life argument and was discounted as conducting biased research. I question the bias-free reporting of your sources Pro Choice Forum, Physicians for Reproductive Choice and Health, Liberated Christians..but you do provide links to several non-biased sources.

Of course we all know that female hormonal shifts do not in any way affect personality or mental health. Claims of PMS, post-natal depression, menopausal hot flashes and mood swings are just excuses to be bitchy. The sudden hormonal swing following an abortion, coupled with natural animal (yes we are a species of animal) instincts could not possibly lead to depression. :rolleyes:

As a post-menopausal female I think that men should have to stick their heads in an oven for 5 minutes every 2 hours so that they can have at least a glimmer of an idea of what it is like to be female.

The point is, I was using a term that you haven't denied (and would probably look dumb if you did) is the most widespread and common term used to reffer to an unborn child. I stand by my original statement, 1,000 of every 1,000 babies aborted dies.The reason we're denying it when you say it is because you aren't talking about the child growing inside of you, but a technical term. I'm not going to correct future parents because "fetus" is a much less pleasant word than "baby". I will correct you when you say babies. Go ahead and say "unborn babies" or "fetuses", but "babies" is the wrong term to use.
And just because something is widely used that doesn't make it correct. See the example of "troop". A lot of military personnel will use it to refer to an individual in some context, but that doesn't make it a correct use of the word.

Well Done, Cat-Tribe!

The medical community does not hold a monopoly on defining human life.
Ooooh so close. The scientific community does. And medicine is a close relative or even a subset of science.

Since you trust so much in the moral absolutes of your silly magic guy in the sky, how about you take it up with him and leave it entirely in his hands. His absolutes, if he's so invested in them he can just use magic to fix everything. You get what you want, and the sensible people get freedom. Everyone wins. Unless of course he's not real....

Furthermore, humans aren't really members of the community of Humans until they've been welcomed into that community (see birthdays), and in some cultures this may include a period where a child might be killed after birth but before their "official" birthday. Don't like it? Pray to be magic'd into another species.

As a post-menopausal female I think that men should have to stick their heads in an oven for 5 minutes every 2 hours so that they can have at least a glimmer of an idea of what it is like to be female.
Er.. thank you, but no. I'll be MORE than happy to take your word for it. ;)

Given the sources and the rigors of some of the studies, it's safe to assume that the data is "normalized" and that 11 times is the amount of relative risk for each choice for a given representative of the standard population. I would assume so as well, but as I didn't see the relivant quote in the links provided I wasn't sure if Cat-Tribe had praphrased or not.

What I was curious about were the long term emotional/psychological effects of those choices. The links that I read in Cat-Tribe posts didn't really focus on that aspect, which is often where right-to-lifers often base their emotional arguments from (the life one might have had). I should say, that people are resonsible for their choices so even if the effects were profound (which I wouldn't expect) I'd still prefer to err greatly on the side of freedom.
Out of respect for a dear friend's privacy I won't go into details, but yes, it haunts those who have to for one reason or another. Even of the mother is SURE of the choice, or has to have it done, it hurts; and I spent a good 6 months helping put friends back together again.

And after experiancing THAT aspect, I am still pro-choice but discusted at how this has become a football that both sides argue over without even caring about the people caught in the middle of it and what it means and will mean for the rest of their lives.

That's per flight, but what about per mile traveled? Nasa will kick some serious ass on that metric. The trick can also be in how the data is normalized too .
*heh* Especially if you add in the trips to the moon and back. *I wonder if they get frequent flyer miles for that?*

they ask "is it a boy or a girl?".

Funny note ... my wife, in all her pregnancies, answered that question: Yes, it will be a boy or a girl.

Though, sometimes, she did actually say, "It's a fetus."

One should never count their chickens before they hatch.

Out of respect for a dear friend's privacy I won't go into details, but yes, it haunts those who have to for one reason or another. Even of the mother is SURE of the choice, or has to have it done, it hurts; and I spent a good 6 months helping put friends back together again.

And after experiancing THAT aspect, I am still pro-choice but discusted at how this has become a football that both sides argue over without even caring about the people caught in the middle of it and what it means and will mean for the rest of their lives.
I think that if you're going to make a decision that effects how people will handle their own health, it's better to err on the side of freedom, than live other people's lives for them and refuse to take responsability for the aftermath. People have to have the opportunity to make the choices that will diminish as well as enrich them and all the grey inbetween.

From the anecdotal evidence the aftermath certainly warrents closer inspection, if only to diminish the suffering, and I think the long term insight 10, 20, or more years can provide us with a lot of insight into the human condition and dealing with all the difficult choices. And I think that challenge and the evaluation of it, not parroting dogma, is what makes a person moral.

*heh* Especially if you add in the trips to the moon and back. *I wonder if they get frequent flyer miles for that?*
Think about that cosmonaut who spent a year orbiting the earth, what once every 90 minutes? That shit adds up.

Funny note ... my wife, in all her pregnancies, answered that question: Yes, it will be a boy or a girl.

Though, sometimes, she did actually say, "It's a fetus."

One should never count their chickens before they hatch.

I suppose that could be amusing if told with the right attitude, but you have to admit that is highly uncommon. The vast majority of people reffer to unborn children as babies.

I think that if you're going to make a decision that effects how people will handle their own health, it's better to err on the side of freedom, than live other people's lives for them and refuse to take responsability for the aftermath. People have to have the opportunity to make the choices that will diminish as well as enrich them and all the grey inbetween.

From the anecdotal evidence the aftermath certainly warrents closer inspection, if only to diminish the suffering, and I think the long term insight 10, 20, or more years can provide us with a lot of insight into the human condition and dealing with all the difficult choices. And I think that challenge and the evaluation of it, not parroting dogma, is what makes a person moral.
Yes, I just wish both camps would get this idea. But, as with most issues it seems to be more about scoring politcal points than anything else.

Think about that cosmonaut who spent a year orbiting the earth, what once every 90 minutes? That shit adds up.
He probably has free flights for life!

On a comlpletely unrelated note.....speaking of that particular Russian Cosmonaut...

Because of the time, and speed, wich he traveled, that some leading physicists believe that he lives a full seven seconds in the future.

Wacky, eh?

I'd like to commend you Cat-Tribe for seriously taking all that time to link to pages upon pages. Geez, how many links do you need?

number of babies that do not survive abortion in the US: 1,000 per 1,000 abortionsNot to nitpick, but I have heard of cases of partial birth abortion where a nurse has saved the baby and raised it. I don't know if it's true or not, though.

Of course we all know that female hormonal shifts do not in any way affect personality or mental health. Claims of PMS, post-natal depression, menopausal hot flashes and mood swings are just excuses to be bitchy. The sudden hormonal swing following an abortion, coupled with natural animal (yes we are a species of animal) instincts could not possibly lead to depression. :rolleyes:


A woman’s emotional responses after experiencing an unwanted pregnancy terminated by abortion are complex and may involve a combination of positive and negative emotions. Positive emotions are more often experienced, and they are experienced more strongly than negative emotions, both immediately after the abortion and during the months following it (Russo & Zierk, 1992).
Yes, some women are depressed after abortion, some will face depression. No one has claimed that all women are "happy" after an abortion. It can lead to depression but normally doesn't. It would be interesting to now if post-abortion depression is as common as post-natal depression.

You only seem to be considering the psychological effects of abortion when the woman on her own decides to have an abortion, or when it's a mutually arrived-at decision between her and the father of the child. But do you honestly think there is no psychological trauma for the girl who is forced into an abortion against her will by her father, husband or boyfriend? And oh yes, this certainly does happen, and it is psychologically devastating to the young woman who would like nothing more than to keep her baby. Everyone likes to think that abortion is something that is always freely chosen by the woman or girl in question - but it isn't. Even in the best of circumstances, there can be external pressures where a woman feels she really has no other choice, and that can be devastating, too.

Do not stand there as a man telling me, a woman, that there is no psychological trauma involved in having an abortion! You simply do not have the capacity to understand.

Do not stand there as a man telling me, a woman, that there is no psychological trauma involved in having an abortion! You simply do not have the capacity to understand.
Was this for me?

edit:
I guess so. I'm female. I've had an abortion. Have you?

This, however, has never been a major argument of the pro-life movement. Neither have the health risks presented to the mother by an abortion been a major argument of the movement. You can present statistics which show the health risks to the mother are low but what the pro life movement really cares about is the following statistics:

number of babies that do not survive delivery in the US: 6.5 per 1,000 births
number of babies that do not survive abortion in the US: 1,000 per 1,000 abortions


I must say, that is my biggest problem with pro-lifers. They have overblown the value of a clump of cells to become more important than the well-being of an already living human.

I predict that the Supreme Court will have to strike down the new Unborn Victims of Violence act, because there is no provision about saving the life of the mother.

I remind everyone that a pregnancy does not amount to another human, but simply the POTENTIAL for another human.

Since when should POTENTIAL be more valuable that ACTUAL life?

You only seem to be considering the psychological effects of abortion when the woman on her own decides to have an abortion, or when it's a mutually arrived-at decision between her and the father of the child. But do you honestly think there is no psychological trauma for the girl who is forced into an abortion against her will by her father, husband or boyfriend? And oh yes, this certainly does happen, and it is psychologically devastating to the young woman who would like nothing more than to keep her baby. Everyone likes to think that abortion is something that is always freely chosen by the woman or girl in question - but it isn't. Even in the best of circumstances, there can be external pressures where a woman feels she really has no other choice, and that can be devastating, too.

Do not stand there as a man telling me, a woman, that there is no psychological trauma involved in having an abortion! You simply do not have the capacity to understand.

I believe the psychological trauma of being forced to bear a child you don't want would be greater. Both for the woman AND the baby. And then the entire society when that abused, unloved child turns to a life of crime.

ANd i have NEVER heard of a woman being FORCED to have an abortion. Pressured, sure. But it's not like in some countries where they perform female circumcisions. And i don't think ANY proponent of abortion would agree that it's okay to force someone to have an abortion any more than it's okay to force someone NOT to. That's why they call themselves PRO-CHOICE.

The idea that abortion should be made illegal for the side effects is a unreasonable to begin with, so I don't think that those who make that argument are searching for reasonable closure to that issue in the first place. To them this post is useless.

For the rest of us, this is an excellent post for information on the topic. Thanks CT.

However, abortion is nearly 100% fatal for the baby

However, abortion is nearly 100% fatal for the baby

So true

The idea that abortion should be made illegal for the side effects is a unreasonable to begin with, so I don't think that those who make that argument are searching for reasonable closure to that issue in the first place. To them this post is useless.

For the rest of us, this is an excellent post for information on the topic. Thanks CT.

Thanks for the thanks, VO. You are most welcome.

I think you summarize the situation accurately. (Zooke's post comes to mind.) (As I am currently drunk, I won't comment further).

Out of respect for a dear friend's privacy I won't go into details, but yes, it haunts those who have to for one reason or another. Even of the mother is SURE of the choice, or has to have it done, it hurts; and I spent a good 6 months helping put friends back together again.

*

these are irratioinal arguments. does anyone know what it feels like to
be blind? prob not. and it sounds like none of you have ever had an
abortion. what do you know? i have, thinking it was a good thing, and
i live with that horror everyday. even though my world would have been
turned upside-down from the birth, my mind, the human mind, views
this to be murder. and normal people feel guilt from murder.

[QUOTE='[NS]Devils Advocate']I believe the psychological trauma of being forced to bear a child you don't want would be greater. Both for the woman AND the baby. And then the entire society when that abused, unloved child turns to a life of crime.

QUOTE]

seems to me you have an awful lot on informatioin on a subject you
have never been involved not all children born after the choice
of abortion was eliminated are unlove, abused, and criminals

these are irratioinal arguments. does anyone know what it feels like to
be blind? prob not. and it sounds like none of you have ever had an
abortion. what do you know? i have, thinking it was a good thing, and
i live with that horror everyday. even though my world would have been
turned upside-down from the birth, my mind, the human mind, views
this to be murder. and normal people feel guilt from murder.
Correction. again. Yes, I know what it feels like. Unfortunately I can not support your story. I've never regretted my decission. Not once, not even in my dreams. I haven't been depressed and the decision has never bothered me at all.

I'm sorry for you but you're not speaking for all women either.

these are irratioinal arguments. does anyone know what it feels like to
be blind? prob not. and it sounds like none of you have ever had an
abortion. what do you know? i have, thinking it was a good thing, and
i live with that horror everyday. even though my world would have been
turned upside-down from the birth, my mind, the human mind, views
this to be murder. and normal people feel guilt from murder.

Considering I am male, no, I have not. However, IF you read my post, I note that I have helped friends (a couple) after one and saw first hand what they went through and spent a lot of time listening and comforting them for their choice and I know it still hurts them, even though in her case it was nessisity.

My point being though that in this fight for pro-choice, anti-choice, too many people are fighting to fight the other side and do not know or care about the people, both women AND men, who this actually effects.

Read more carefully.

However, abortion is nearly 100% fatal for the baby
and by baby, I assume you mean "fetus," which cannot live outside of its mother.

I'm sorry for you but you're not speaking for all women either.
Quoting mysel again.

I hate the fact that quite often other women try to put me on guild trip. "Wasn't it horrible?" "Are you still suffering?" etc. For god's sake. They make tens of abortions in every town every day. YES it is a big deal for some of them but for most it's not a life-changing situation where they see the light and understand the meaning of life.

They don't pull out look-a-like newborns. Most of the abortions are made before the 12th week. Every abortion after that (at least around here) has to be discussed with several experts which are not going to do that if there's no significant reasons to do that. You all know that. Some of you just refuse to accept it.

and by baby, I assume you mean "fetus," which cannot live outside of its mother.

So, if I were joined to a siamese twin, and that twin could not live if we were seperated, but I could, I could just kill the twin by your definition, since it cannot survive without me.

and by baby, I assume you mean "fetus," which cannot live outside of its mother.

Which is why no premature births end in survival.

However, abortion is nearly 100% fatal for the baby
No, it's not. It's not a baby until it's born. Since no one is aborted after being born, abortion is never fatal to the baby.

However, abortion is nearly 100% fatal for the baby


Except there is no baby and there is no life to be taken, just potential for life. If potential for life were truly enough every time a person had sex they would be causing the deaths of millions of babies (even with out birth control).

number of babies that do not survive abortion in the US: 1,000 per 1,000 abortions

You make an assumption that all 1000 would have lived in the first place.

Does your numbers also exclude the condition of where women have a false pregnancy?

Find it yourself, it isnt relevant to my point and Im not really interested in the answer.

Ahh but your point is more of a dramatic effect then fact.....

Which is why no premature births end in survival.

Ah what?

Actually there are many that don't survive.

Do not stand there as a man telling me, a woman, that there is no psychological trauma involved in having an abortion! You simply do not have the capacity to understand.

When you post; sometimes it's better to mention whom you are responding rather then you. That is of course you mean all.

Now the psychological thing. Abortion is a horrible choice so there is bagge for the person no matter the situation for why it was chosen.

Now on the matter of abortions. Have you had one?

You make a intersteller assumption if you think they male feels nothing if the unfortunate choice of an abortion is made. We have a little more capacity to understand more then you think.

We feel it in a different way then women.

For the record; I was involved with one. The child had a terminal disease.

these are irratioinal arguments. does anyone know what it feels like to
be blind? prob not. and it sounds like none of you have ever had an
abortion. what do you know? i have, thinking it was a good thing, and
i live with that horror everyday. even though my world would have been
turned upside-down from the birth, my mind, the human mind, views
this to be murder. and normal people feel guilt from murder.

Speaking of irrational....

You need to re-read what Nev was saying. You basically said the same thing he was saying.

I feel for you for having to make that horrible choice. My wife and I had to make it as well. As a male I can tell you I live with it. Even though it was the right thing to do(the child had no chance to live); you still ask yourself was it the right thing to do.

My wifes parents didn't have to make the choice. My sister-in-law lived 2 weeks all in the hospital, medicated and attached to machines. My mother-in-law once said she thinks the girl never knew who she was as she was always medicated.

That was 30 years ago and that event still weighs on them.....

I don't know how long ago it was for you and I won't ask but the best thing to do is to accept the fact it was done. The pain will never go away but it will lesson.....

Okay, I'm at a loss, the links don't prove anything helpful to the pro-choice side... Why are they here? These studies (when they are even real studies at all, some of the links are opinion commentary) seem to prove that PAS (post abortion stress sydrome) does exists and is harmful to women.

I'll go through them ALL, one at a time:

Cat-Tribes Links…

Links:
1. Commentary, not a study at all.
2. “58 women, 4 and 12 months after the abortion ~ 12 had had severe emotional distress directly post-abortion…”
3. Pro-Choice Forum, also, used percentages instead of numbers and admits it only tested people that volunteered to maintain contact (depressed and guilty feeling women would naturally choose not to participate in a pro-choice study).
4. This is an odd one. No numbers at all, just says that women who are denied abortions are pissed off even four years later ???
5. “However, anxiety symptoms are now clearly identified as the most common adverse response. There has been increasing understanding of abortion as a potential trauma, and studies less commonly explore guilt.”
6. Dead Link
7. “women who had had abortions were more rebellious than control women, abortion tended to be associated with somewhat greater depression in married women,”
8. “The Pro Choice Forum website is designed for those who have an interest in social, legal and ethical aspects of abortion.” :rolleyes: same group from 1.
9. 773 women were identified in 1987 as having at least one abortion, with 233 of them reporting repeat abortions. (what’s the point of this link? The study’s numbers are not about the topic you talked about, and then they go off and tell us something that you guys have been saying isn't true (including other links here) that a third (1/3rd, 33%) of the people who do get abortions get more than one?!?! WTH, you guys have been lying to us anti-abortionist in this forum?)
10. Written by an abortion clinic Director…http://www.womenshealthpractice.com/about.htm
11. Pro-Choice forum wants us to ‘buy’ the test numbers…
12. Commentary Letter protesting a different study by different people…
13. This actually has to audacity to suggest that high-school girls who get an abortion actually do better than girls that never get pregnant at all?!?! :confused:
14. “In women with no previous history of psychiatric illness, deliberate self-harm (DSH) was more common in those who had a termination (RR 1.7, 95% CI 1.1-2.6), …”
15. Pro-Choice Forum again… But this one is about ‘drinking, and it says women who drink and get pregnant get abortions and continue to drink afterward/// well no duh :p .
16. Oh for crying out loud. :rolleyes: this study calls it unwanted births, but in essence, it tells us that mothers who don’t love their kids have bad relationships with them… did anyone doubt this before the study?
17. This study found this, “Minors were relatively less satisfied with their abortion decision and felt less benefit from the abortion” then proceeds to spend the rest of their time saying that it doesn’t matter.
18. Opinion/commentary and summary history of abortion, claims everything is great.
19. Another Pro-Choice Forum link… another “In 1987, women who had one abortion had higher self-esteem than women who reported no abortion”… Okay, everyone should have an abortion, your self-esteem with improve! Whatever… :eek:
20. Dead-Link
21. This one gives the data to say, “negative emotions increased and decision satisfaction decreased over time ~ 31% after two years said they would NOT do it again, if given the same choice.”
22. “risk of negative response are consistent with those reported in research on other stressful life events.”
23. This site claims that all the women who get depressed from post-abortion-stree are sick BEFORE the abortion and pregnancy anyway, so they don’t count :rolleyes:
24. This one claims that a panel at the APA in 1992 discusses the issues of negativity with post-abortion feelings, but then, it wants me to pay to be a member to read it… I think not.
25. Pro-Choice Forum commentary, says the pro-life people are liars…
26. Pro-Choice, 2001 guide to fighting anti-abortionists arguments and strategies
27. Link works, nothing there though. Just the title, says “The myth of the abortion trauma syndrome” so I assume Cat-Tribe thought the thing was here but didn’t actually read it because there isn’t anything here…
28. This one is a review of the literature around the abortion controversy but seems to admit that PAS exists but then blames it on the women who don’t want to accept responsibility… :rollseyes:
29. Pro-Choice Forum, AGAIN…. Blames women for their own PAS…
30. This one goes to some extent before admitting that they had ANY evidence of PAS at all. But, then, at the end, they said that the ones that did show signs of PAS, turned out the be ones they called ignorant women … “Among abortion patients, those found to have low self-esteem, low contraceptive knowledge, high alienation, and who delayed in seeking abortion were related to long recovery times…” (again, blaming the woman, and this time it begs the question, since they were able to supposedly predict who would be adversely affected, why didn’t they ‘warn’ them?)
31. This one says that PAS does exist, but that they think it is short term.
32. This on is a discussion of the same study from 21, but at a different website. But since it is linked to again, I’ll post more of what it says, “Younger age and having more children preabortion also predicted more negative abortion evaluations” (certainly looks like PAS exists)
33. This one says that women who have unwanted pregnancies get disturbed (well no duh) and they attribute the PAS to pregnancy, not the abortion.
34. This is an opinion piece that says that denial of a requested abortion causes the mothers forced to carry their babies to term to not love their children and end up raising them badly (even claims to say that these children are still harmed after they get to adulthood) and decides that therefore, we should grant ALL abortion requests immediately, for the sake of the child…. :rolleyes: Apparently convincing the unhappy mothers-to-be that they should give up the child they were forced to have to adoption instead of hating their children for the next 18 years, never occurred to the writers of this opinion piece :mad:
35. Repeat study….different website…
36. 1976 study, three years after Roe., and it says, “Adverse psychiatric and social sequelae were rare…” (So they already knew it was around)
37. “Psychological or psychiatric disturbances occur in association with therapeutic abortions but they seem to be marked, severe, or persistent in only a minority (approximately 10%) of women.” Ten percent of abortions results in severe or persistent psychiatric disturbances? How does this help your argument Cat?
38. And this one agrees with 37. above., it says even women who have spontaneous abortions (miscarriages) suffer emotionally nearly 50% of the time…. (again, why linked here? And besides, I'll bet without a study at all, that women who 'want' their baby suffer 100% of the time they have a miscarriage... nonsensical link for a pro-abortionist argument)


Okay Cat-Tribe, your links don’t say what you said they would say… in fact, I think I’ll save them and link to the actual ‘studies’ and not the commentary political ones, because the science ones are good proofs about why abortion rights should be severely limited and much more controlled, if not banned outright entirely.


What were you thinking by posting these links Cat-Tribe, I read them all, and apparently you didn’t. And really, the title of this thread really stinks... telling those women that their pain doesn't even exist... Good for you, nice going in belittling other people’s condition. How empathetic of you.

What were you thinking by posting these links Cat-Tribe, I read them all, apparently you didn’t.

Oh man this is going to be good. The Cat-Tribe is going to give you a proper drubing.

*gets popcorn and a comfy chair*

It's irrelevant, for every 1,000 aborted 1,000 die. That's what my statistic said. It could be 50 a year or 50,000 a year and it would still hold true. Maybe Im not the one who needs a dictionary? :confused:

A fetus isn't a baby, but nice try. ;)

A fetus isn't a baby, but nice try. ;)

Scientifically prove it's not a baby... :p but thanks for playing...

Title: There is no post abortion syndrum. Ok so if i take a poll today asking every women who has ever had an abortion, if they werent in the least bit affected (morally, mentally, stressfully) by there abortion, all of them would say i am 100 % happy with my choice and I have no regrets of killing what would eventually become human life, because I was to lazy to take my baby to the orphange and fill out the proper forms.
lol and to add a little "comic relief" to this much over done thread here is one of the funniest people on the net.
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=regressive

Scientifically prove it's not a baby... :p but thanks for playing...

Because science calls it a fetus and not a baby.

Because science calls it a fetus and not a baby.

Nah, fetus is a "stage" of baby identity, like infant and toddler. An infant isn't a toddler who isn't a fetus, but all three are equally babies. Even though an infant isn't a toddler, they are all offspring.

Because science calls it a fetus and not a baby.
well you know, what has science done for us! Engineered mustard gas and disect frogs thats what!

Scientifically prove it's not a baby... :p but thanks for playing...
By the fucking scientific definition, baby doesn't apply until after birth. If you can't wrap your brain around that concept, which has been mentioned numerous times in this thread, then it's not our fault.

well you know, what has science done for us! Engineered mustard gas and disect frogs thats what!
Science gave you the object you used to type that post. It's called a "keyboard". Revolutionary, isn't it?

well you know, what has science done for us! Engineered mustard gas and disect frogs thats what!

Yea! The damn thing even gave us a cure for polio and discoved DNA!

Ban it all! The Dark Ages rocked man!

Yea! The damn thing even gave us a cure for polio and discoved DNA!

Ban it all! The Dark Ages rocked man!

Darn it. Now I'm going to get turned into a newt.

By the fucking scientific definition, baby doesn't apply until after birth. If you can't wrap your brain around that concept, which has been mentioned numerous times in this thread, then it's not our fault.


Oh, well then, I haven't actually read the Fucking Scientific Definition course book yet, My mistake. Perhaps you would like to share with the rest of us the page references and the pre-birth child definition that isn't yet called by Baby by the FSD book yet. :rolleyes:

sheesh apparently no one can take a joke. BTW keyboarding is not science to the "smart guy" who said it was. Science and technology are completey different. My junior high science did a nice job of teaching me that.

sheesh apparently no one can take a joke. BTW keyboarding is not science to the "smart guy" who said it was. Science and technology are completey different. My junior high science did a nice job of teaching me that.
Seems you can't see one either. ;)

at least were not resolving to violence.
(unborn baby) :confused: :sniper: (pro choice activist)

at least were not resolving to violence.
(unborn baby) :confused: :sniper: (pro choice activist)

Hmmm

(abortion clinic worker) :confused: :sniper: (pro life activiest)
(criminal) :mad: :sniper: (pro life activist)
(homosexual) :confused: :sniper: (pro life christian activist)

Two can play that game. :p

.... a pro life activist killing a criminal.....(iq check is in order) well you can kill your babies and I can preach how pro lifers can preach they are moraly superior cuz im gonna get off now cya.

Hmmm

(abortion clinic worker) :confused: :sniper: (pro life activiest)
(criminal) :mad: :sniper: (pro life activist)
(homosexual) :confused: :sniper: (pro life christian activist)

Two can play that game. :p

I really hate it when people jump to these conclusions about pro-lifers.

-I respect the opinions of pro-choicers, even if they disagree with my philosophy.

-I am against the death penalty, since that isn't pro-life.

-And I'm all for gay rights, even when I was a Christian.

.... a pro life activist killing a criminal.....(iq check is in order) well you can kill your babies and I can preach how pro lifers can preach they are moraly superior cuz im gonna get off now cya.

Think about it.

Pro Life and support the death penalty.

I really hate it when people jump to these conclusions about pro-lifers.

-I respect the opinions of pro-choicers, even if they disagree with my philosophy.

-I am against the death penalty, since that isn't pro-life.

-And I'm all for gay rights, even when I was a Christian.

Comment wasn't aimed at you. It's for our buddy M3....

But you have to admit there have been pro life leaders that have said (not exact) "We don't condine violence, but you have to remember they are killing babies in there"

You have to admit there are many pro-life people that support the death penalty.

There are some that think killing abortion doctors is ok.

That's because the Pro-Life side is led by the Conservative Right, which also holds the Death Penalty. There's not a lot to choose from for most voters, and people on the Right will want to be very conservative if they want to get to any position, because of the nature of the party. I'm more left than right, but if it came between making abortion illegal (except perhaps in some cases) and abolish the death penalty, I'd have to go with making abortion illegal, because the fetuses are innocent and are just about to begin life, whereas the criminal has lived life, and very poorly I might add.

Here are some medical dictionary definitions for fetus, for those who are interested:

http://medical-dictionary.com/dictionaryresults.php

foetus

<biology, embryology, obstetrics> A developing unborn offspring of an animal that gives birth to its young (as opposed to laying eggs).

From approximately three months after conception the offspring take on a recognisable form (all parts in place, etc.). In human development, the period after the seventh or eighth week of pregnancy is the foetal period.

http://www2.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/mwmednlm?book=Medical&va=fetus

Main Entry: fe·tus
Variant(s): or chiefly British foe·tus /primarystressfemacront-schwas/
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural fe·tus·es or chiefly British foe·tus·es or foe·ti /primarystressfemacront-secondarystressimacr/
: an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind ; specifically : a developing human from usually three months after conception to birth -- compare EMBRYO

http://www.online-medical-dictionary.org/omd.asp?q=fetus

Fetus
The unborn offspring of any viviparous mammals, in the postembryonic period, after the major structures have been outlined.


It sounds like many in the medical community havent gotten the news that a fetus is not actually a human being. Some of you on this forum may want to educate the makers of some of these medical dictionaries so they can stop reffering to a fetus as a human being in a particular stage of human development no different from adolescence or infancy.

Wow, we got to about... page 5 before the flames started, I'm impressed.

Which is why no premature births end in survival.
I think the record still stands at 24 weeks. And quite frankly, severely premature babies face such miserable life long health problems there is something of a ethical dilemma with using the might of our technology to force life to cling to an organism that's so unable to cling back. But unlike abortion that a choice someone other than the parents has to live with, and so they are perhaps fit to be the final arbiters of the morality of such choices.

Here are some medical dictionary definitions for fetus, for those who are interested:

http://medical-dictionary.com/dictionaryresults.php

http://www2.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/mwmednlm?book=Medical&va=fetus

http://www.online-medical-dictionary.org/omd.asp?q=fetus


It sounds like many in the medical community havent gotten the news that a fetus is not actually a human being. Some of you on this forum may want to educate the makers of some of these medical dictionaries so they can stop reffering to a fetus as a human being in a particular stage of human development no different from adolescence or infancy.
None of those quotes refer to a fetus as a "human being." Identifying a fetus as an "unborn human" is very different from identifying it as a human being, you see; all qualified medical professionals know that a human fetus is human, and they also know that a fetus that has not yet been born would be "unborn." To refer to a fetus as a form of unborn human life is accurate, and does not carry any connotation of human PERSONHOOD. To identify a fetus as a particular stage in the human life cycle does not confer PERSONHOOD. Those references use correct biological terminology, which you appear to be misunderstanding, and do not make any evaluation as to the "being" of human fetuses.

sheesh apparently no one can take a joke. BTW keyboarding is not science to the "smart guy" who said it was. Science and technology are completey different. My junior high science did a nice job of teaching me that.
Yes, as junior high science is the be-all and end-all of knowledge. :rolleyes:
Science causes technology. Who invented the keyboard? An engineer. Is an engineer a scientist? Yes.

I may fix formatting later. But this is a joke.

Okay, I'm at a loss, the links don't prove anything helpful to the pro-choice side... Why are they here? These studies (when they are even real studies at all, some of the links are opinion commentary) seem to prove that PAS (post abortion stress sydrome) does exists and is harmful to women.

You fail to deal with the CDC (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5309a1.htm), the Alan Guttmacher Institute (http://www.agi-usa.org/presentations/abort_slides.pdf), or the American Psychological Association at all.

You fail to realize the point. Yes, some women have negative psychological responses to abortion, but a greater percentage have more serious negative responses to childbirth.

There is no such thing as PAS. It is not recognized by the AMA, the American Psychiatric Association, or the American Psychological Association (http://www.apa.org/ppo/issues/womenabortfacts.html).

I'll go through them ALL, one at a time:

Except you skip the first three – particularly the APA (http://www.apa.org/ppo/issues/womenabortfacts.html).

Cat-Tribes Links…

Links:
1. Commentary, not a study at all.
Psychological implications of abortion — highly charged and rife with misleading research

Um. Commentary by a noted psychologist published in the Canadian Medical Association Journal discussing studies and rebutting the major pro-PAS psuedo-study .

“On the basis of their review of all studies of psychological responses following abortion that met reasonable scientific criteria, this panel of experts concluded that first trimester abortion generally is "psychologically benign" for most women. The surgeon general of the United States reached a similar conclusion.11”

2. “58 women, 4 and 12 months after the abortion ~ 12 had had severe emotional distress directly post-abortion…”

Wellbeing and mental growth-long-term effects of legal abortion.

“The study shows that women generally are able to make the complex decision to have an abortion without suffering any subsequent regret or negative effects, as ascertained at the 1-year follow-up.”

3. Pro-Choice Forum, also, used percentages instead of numbers and admits it only tested people that volunteered to maintain contact (depressed and guilty feeling women would naturally choose not to participate in a pro-choice study).

The Psychological Effects of First Trimester Abortion

Citation: Major, B., Cozzarelli, C., Cooper, M. C., Zubek, J., Richards, C., Wilhite, M., & Gramzow, R. H. (2000). Psychological responses of women after first-trimester abortion. Archives of General Psychiatry, 57, 777-784.

If you don’t like the Pro-Choice Forum’s reporting, here it is direct
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10920466&dopt=Abstract
Results: At 2 year follow-up 70-75% of the women were satisfied with the abortion, would decide to have the abortion again and attributed more positive than negative outcomes to it. Eighty percent were not depressed; 1% (6 women) evidenced PTSD. Self-esteem increased and depression declined post-abortion. Negative emotions increased and satisfaction with the abortion decision decreased over time. The women in this study (mean age, 24; range, 14-40) were no more likely to show clinical depression and less likely to evidence PTSD than national samples of women of similar ages in the U.S. Precursors of negative psychological outcomes at 2 years included history of clinical depression, younger age and greater numbers of children preabortion.
4. This is an odd one. No numbers at all, just says that women who are denied abortions are pissed off even four years later ???



Am J Psychiatry 1991; 148:578-585
The psychological sequelae of therapeutic abortion--denied and completed
PK Dagg
Department of Psychiatry, Mount Sinai Hospital, Toronto, Ont., Canada.


RESULTS: Adverse sequelae occur in a minority of women, and when such symptoms occur, they usually seem to be the continuation of symptoms that appeared before the abortion and are on the wane immediately after the abortion. Many women denied abortion show ongoing resentment that may last for years, while children born when the abortion is denied have numerous, broadly based difficulties in social, interpersonal, and occupational functions that last at least into early adulthood.

5. “However, anxiety symptoms are now clearly identified as the most common adverse response. There has been increasing understanding of abortion as a potential trauma, and studies less commonly explore guilt.”

The effects of induced abortion on emotional experiences and relationships: a critical review of the literature.

Clin Psychol Rev. 2003 Dec;23(7):929-58.

“Women due to have an abortion are more anxious and distressed than other pregnant women or women whose pregnancy is threatened by miscarriage, but in the long term they do no worse psychologically than women who give birth. Self-esteem appears unaffected by the process.”

6. Dead Link

Post Abortion Stress Syndrome

No.

http://www.msmagazine.com/aug01/pas.html

7. “women who had had abortions were more rebellious than control women, abortion tended to be associated with somewhat greater depression in married women,”

Therapeutic abortion and its psychological implications: the Canadian experience

partial quote by you. Shame:

Out of 27 psychological scales, differences between the abortion and control groups were found on only 3: in general, women who had had abortions were more rebellious than control women, abortion tended to be associated with somewhat greater depression in married women, and single women who had had abortions scored higher on the shallow-affect scale. However, all the personality scores were well within the normal range.

8. “The Pro Choice Forum website is designed for those who have an interest in social, legal and ethical aspects of abortion.” same group from 1.

The Psychological Effects of Abortion for Adolescents

Citation: Pope, L. M., Adler, N. E., & Schann, J. M. (2001). Postabortion psychological adjustment: Are minors at increased risk? Journal of Adolescent Health, 29, 2-11.

Citation: Zabin, L.S., Hirsch, M.B., & Emerson, M.P. (1989). When urban adolescents choose abortion: Effects on education, psychological status and subsequent pregnancy, Family Planning Perspectives, 26 (6), 248-255.

Are published peer-reviewed studies invalid because they get re-reported on the Pro-Choice Forum?

(notice the second one is cited directly at #13, but you didn’t like the results)


9. 773 women were identified in 1987 as having at least one abortion, with 233 of them reporting repeat abortions. (what’s the point of this link? The study’s numbers are not about the topic you talked about, and then they go off and tell us something that you guys have been saying isn't true (including other links here) that a third (1/3rd, 33%) of the people who do get abortions get more than one?!?! WTH, you guys have been lying to us anti-abortionist in this forum?)

The Relationship of Abortion to Well-Being. Do Race and Religion Make a Difference?

Actually 2 studies at this site.

RUSSO, NANCY FELIPE
DABUL, AMY J.
The Relationship of Abortion to Well-Being. Do Race and Religion Make a Difference?
Professional Psychology: Research and Practice 28,1 (February 1997): 23-31
Cohort(s): NLSY79
ID Number: 3231
Publisher: American Psychological Association (APA)

“Abortion did not have an independent relationship to well-being, regardless of race or religion, when well-being before becoming pregnant was controlled.”

RUSSO, NANCY FELIPE
ZIERK, K.
Abortion, Childbearing, and Women's Well-Being
Professional Psychology, Research and Practice 23 (1992): 269-280. Also, http://www.prochoiceforum.org.uk/psy_research5.asp
Cohort(s): NLSY79
ID Number: 4029
Publisher: American Psychological Association (APA)

NOTE: THIS IS THE CURRENT BUREAU OF LABOR STATISTICS REFERRING PEOPLE TO THE PROCHOICE FORUM SITE TO READ THE STUDY!!!!!! (See #19)

10. Written by an abortion clinic Director…http://www.womenshealthpractice.com/about.htm

Abortion

Author: Suzanne R Trupin, MD, Clinical Professor, Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, University of Illinois College of Medicine at Urbana-Champaign

Suzanne R Trupin, MD, is a member of the following medical societies: American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, American Medical Association, Association of Reproductive Health Professionals, and Central Association of Obstetricians and Gynecologists


Editor(s): Steven David Spandorfer, MD, Assistant Professor, Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, New York Presbyterian Hospital, Weill Medical College-Cornell University; Francisco Talavera, PharmD, PhD, Senior Pharmacy Editor, eMedicine; A David Barnes, MD, PhD, Professor, Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, University of Hawaii, Chubu Hospital; Frederick B Gaupp, MD, Consulting Staff, Department of Family Practice, Assumption Community Hospital; and Lee P Shulman, MD, Professor of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Head, Section of Reproductive Genetics, Feinberg School of Medicine, Northwestern University; Distinguished Physician, Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Northwestern Memorial Hospital


11. Pro-Choice forum wants us to ‘buy’ the test numbers…

Abortion and its Health Effects

But provides a summary first …. Which you ignore.

12. Commentary Letter protesting a different study by different people…

Abortion perils debated

Letter to the CMAJ by Gail Erlick Robinson, Professor of Psychiatry, University of Toronto, Toronto, Ont., rebutting the major pro-PAS psuedo-study.

13. This actually has to audacity to suggest that high-school girls who get an abortion actually do better than girls that never get pregnant at all?!?!

When urban adolescents choose abortion: effects on education, psychological status and subsequent pregnancy. Fam Plann Perspect. 1989 Nov-Dec;21(6):248-55.

Peer-reviewed published study. Too bad you find the results shocking.

“Thus, two years after their abortions, the young women who had chosen to terminate an unwanted pregnancy were doing as well as (and usually better than) those who had had a baby or who had not been pregnant.”

14. “In women with no previous history of psychiatric illness, deliberate self-harm (DSH) was more common in those who had a termination (RR 1.7, 95% CI 1.1-2.6), …”

Termination of pregnancy and psychiatric morbidity

The British Journal of Psychiatry 167: 243-248 (1995)

RESULTS. Rates of total reported psychiatric disorder were no higher after termination of pregnancy than after childbirth. Women with a previous history of psychiatric illness were most at risk of disorder after the end of their pregnancy, whatever its outcome. Women without a previous history of psychosis had an apparently lower risk of psychosis after termination than postpartum (relative risk RR = 0.4, 95% confidence interval CI = 0.3-0.7), but rates of psychosis leading to hospital admission were similar. In women with no previous history of psychiatric illness, deliberate self-harm (DSH) was more common in those who had a termination (RR 1.7, 95% CI 1.1-2.6), or who were refused a termination (RR 2.9, 95% CI 1.3-6.3). CONCLUSIONS. The findings on DSH are probably explicable by confounding variables, such as adverse social factors, associated both with the request for termination and with subsequent self-harm. No overall increase in reported psychiatric morbidity was found.


15. Pro-Choice Forum again… But this one is about ‘drinking, and it says women who drink and get pregnant get abortions and continue to drink afterward/// well no duh .

Abortion, Reproductive History and Substance Abuse

Which of the 5 studies reported are you discussing? It sounds like the first one, which was by pro-lifers!

16. Oh for crying out loud. this study calls it unwanted births, but in essence, it tells us that mothers who don’t love their kids have bad relationships with them… did anyone doubt this before the study?
Unwanted childbearing, health, and mother-child relationships.
J Health Soc Behav. 1999 Sep;40(3):231-57.

“Using the 1987-88 wave of the National Survey of Families and Households, a survey of a national probability sample of U.S. households, we show that mothers with unwanted births suffer from higher levels of depression and lower levels of happiness. We also demonstrate that they spank their young children more and spend less leisure time with them. We conclude that experiencing unwanted childbearing reduces the time and attention that mothers give their young children and that these early mother-child interactions set the stage for long-term, lower quality relationships.”

17. This study found this, “Minors were relatively less satisfied with their abortion decision and felt less benefit from the abortion” then proceeds to spend the rest of their time saying that it doesn’t matter.

Adolescents and adjustment to abortion: are minors at greater risk?
Psychol Public Policy Law. 2001 Sep;7(3):491-514.

Minors were relatively less satisfied with their abortion decision and felt less benefit from the abortion than did adults 1 month postabortion, but they did not differ from adults in adjustment 2 years postabortion. Minors were not more depressed than adults at either time period, and their decision satisfaction and perceived benefit at both time periods did not suggest a population at risk. Age group differences in adjustment 1 month postabortion were explained by minors' reduced self-efficacy appraisals for coping, greater use of avoidant coping strategies, and greater perceived parental conflict. These findings challenge the Court's assumption that minors are particularly vulnerable to psychological harm following abortion.

18. Opinion/commentary and summary history of abortion, claims everything is great.

The Public Health Impact of Legal Abortion: 30 Years Later

Speaks for itself.

19. Another Pro-Choice Forum link… another “In 1987, women who had one abortion had higher self-esteem than women who reported no abortion”… Okay, everyone should have an abortion, your self-esteem with improve! Whatever…

Abortion, Childbearing, and Women's Well-Being

Citation: Russo, N. & Zierk, K. [Department of Psychology, Arizona State University, Box 871104, Tempe, AZ 87287-1104], (1992). Abortion, Childbearing, and Women's Well-Being. Professional Psychology, Research and Practice, 23, 269-280.

(note this is the published study that the Bureau of Labor Statistics refers you to this site to read).

Again, you don’t like the result, so you make fun. Shows more positive than negative long-term psychological effects of abortion.

20. Dead-Link

No.

http://www.prch.org/advocacy_policy/stotland.shtml

21. This one gives the data to say, “negative emotions increased and decision satisfaction decreased over time ~ 31% after two years said they would NOT do it again, if given the same choice.”

Psychological responses of women after first-trimester abortion.

RESULTS: Two years postabortion, 301 (72%) of 418 women were satisfied with their decision; 306 (69%) of 441 said they would have the abortion again; 315 (72%) of 440 reported more benefit than harm from their abortion; and 308 (80%) of 386 were not depressed. Six (1%) of 442 reported posttraumatic stress disorder. Depression decreased and self-esteem increased from preabortion to postabortion, but negative emotions increased and decision satisfaction decreased over time. Prepregnancy history of depression was a risk factor for depression, lower self-esteem, and more negative abortion-specific outcomes 2 years postabortion. Younger age and having more children preabortion also predicted more negative abortion evaluations. CONCLUSIONS: Most women do not experience psychological problems or regret their abortion 2 years postabortion, but some do. Those who do tend to be women with a prior history of depression.

22. “risk of negative response are consistent with those reported in research on other stressful life events.”

Exactically!!!!

Psychological responses after abortion.
Science. 1990 Apr 6;248(4951):41-4.

“A review of methodologically sound studies of the psychological responses of U.S. women after they obtained legal, nonrestrictive abortions indicates that distress is generally greatest before the abortion and that the incidence of severe negative responses is low. Factors associated with increased risk of negative response are consistent with those reported in research on other stressful life events.”

23. This site claims that all the women who get depressed from post-abortion-stree are sick BEFORE the abortion and pregnancy anyway, so they don’t count

Study Challenges Abortion Trauma
New York Times 2/97

“Yet another study confirms the 1992 JAMA published study (details below).

The 1997 study again, shows "Abortion does not trigger lasting emotional trauma in young women who are psychologically healthy before they became pregnant" this newest eight year study of several hundred women by two Arizona researchers show.”

“The Journal of American Medical Assn 10/21/92 details 23 references which claim that there is no Post Abortion Distress Syndrome UNLESS it is caused by fanatical religious or emotionally involved people who have a vested interest in MAKING the women feel guilty. It agrees that a some women to suffer from emotional distress, but were either mentally unstable before abortion, were forced into it against their will, or belonged to socio-religious groups where abortion was considered sin. The report is referenced by many studies both in the U.S. and Britain. To my knowledge, there has been no major studies published in scientific (not religious biased) journals that indicate anything different. Some women do have problems after abortions, but the vast majority feel only relief.

Dr. Nada Stotland's research shows most post abortion distress a myth and the 'problems' blamed on the abortion were inevitably the result of other factors, such as other emotional problems, not the abortion. The amount of and degree of emotional problems were far more prevalent in women who were denied abortions.”


24. This one claims that a panel at the APA in 1992 discusses the issues of negativity with post-abortion feelings, but then, it wants me to pay to be a member to read it… I think not.

Psychological factors in abortion. A review.
Am Psychol. 1992 Oct;47(10):1194-204.

“Psychological research is increasingly involved in debates regarding abortion. While recognizing the diversity of ethical and moral issues intertwined with abortion, the American Psychological Association (APA) has focused its involvement on psychological factors, most recently by appointing an expert panel to review the literature on psychological effects. This article notes the history of APA involvement and reports on the panel's conclusions. It presents evidence that abortion is not likely to be followed by severe psychological responses and that psychological aspects can best be understood within a framework of normal stress and coping rather than a model of psychopathology. Correlates of more negative responses following abortion are also discussed.”

You expect free links to every complete study? Because Medline lies about the summary?

25. Pro-Choice Forum commentary, says the pro-life people are liars…

The Context for the Development of 'Post-Abortion Syndrome'

Pretty much – except written by an expert, Dr. Ellie Lee, with numerous citations.

26. Pro-Choice, 2001 guide to fighting anti-abortionists arguments and strategies

Is abortion a health risk? There is no evidence that abortion poses a risk either to women's mental or physical health.

Bullshit.

This is a review of the evidence by two experts that thoroughly debunk PAS.

27. Link works, nothing there though. Just the title, says “The myth of the abortion trauma syndrome” so I assume Cat-Tribe thought the thing was here but didn’t actually read it because there isn’t anything here…

The myth of the abortion trauma syndrome.
JAMA. 1992 Oct 21;268(15):2078-9.

I’m sorry, it is a link to a citation to which you have to follow a further link. It was a free link in JAMA, but is no longer. My deepest apologies that you cannot look at the actual study and deny what it says. #20 is a statement by the author of the peer-review study linked here. #22 discusses that same study.

And I did read it, thank you very much.

28. This one is a review of the literature around the abortion controversy but seems to admit that PAS exists but then blames it on the women who don’t want to accept responsibility… :rollseyes:

Emotional response to abortion: a critical review of the literature.
Women Ther. 1990;9(4):49-68.

“Anti-abortion groups in the US cite the existence of a post-abortion syndrome--a sense of loss, emptiness, and grief similar to that reported by trauma survivors. Although research on the longterm effects of induced abortion is marred by methodological errors, most studies have found no adverse psychological sequelae; rather, there appears to be a sense of relief and opportunity for personal growth. Nevertheless, there is a small group of women who do experience emotional distress after abortion and it is important to identify the demographic, social, and psychological factors that place women at risk of such a reaction. In terms of demographic factors, young age (adolescence), low or nulliparity, 2nd-trimester procedures, and Catholicism have been characteristics of women who suffered post-abortion depression. Of the social variables that have been examined, a lack of support from significant others (parents or partner) has been linked in some studies to emotional distress after abortion. A relatively consistent finding is that women who feel coerced to abort or are ambivalent about their decision at the time of the procedure are most likely to experience regret, depression, and anger. Women whose coping style involves avoiding responsibility are also prone to post-abortion distress. As noted, the literature does not support the contention that abortion causes longterm trauma. On the other hand, given the fact that 1.5 million abortions take place each year in the US, the existence of some post-abortion distress in even as small percentage of acceptors is enough to indicate a need for pre- and post-abortion counseling to help women determine the meaning of the experience and own their decisions.”

29. Pro-Choice Forum, AGAIN…. Blames women for their own PAS…

Abortion Psychological Sequelae: the debate and the research

Speaks for itself. You just don’t like what it says.

30. This one goes to some extent before admitting that they had ANY evidence of PAS at all. But, then, at the end, they said that the ones that did show signs of PAS, turned out the be ones they called ignorant women … “Among abortion patients, those found to have low self-esteem, low contraceptive knowledge, high alienation, and who delayed in seeking abortion were related to long recovery times…” (again, blaming the woman, and this time it begs the question, since they were able to supposedly predict who would be adversely affected, why didn’t they ‘warn’ them?)

Psychiatric sequelae to term birth and induced early and late abortion: a longitudinal study.
Fam Plann Perspect. 1973 Fall;5(4):227-31.

XXXXXXXXX

31. This one says that PAS does exist, but that they think it is short term.

Pregnancy decision making: predictors of early stress and adjustment
Psychol Women Q. 1993 Jun;17(2):223-39.

“Adjustment to pregnancy decision making over a 4-week period beginning immediately prior to pregnancy testing was assessed in 33 women who presented to a woman's health clinic in California. An additional 54 women initially recruited for the study had a negative pregnancy test and were thus excluded. The mean age of study subjects as 26.7 years; 63% were White and they had an average of 14 years of education. Prior to pregnancy testing, 70 of the 87 initial subjects (80%) indicated their pregnancies were unintended and 68 (78%) reported they had already made a decision about outcome should their test result to positive (34.5% intended to carry the pregnancy to term, 43.7% planned to abort, and only 21.8% were undecided). Of the 33 women who turned out to be pregnant, questioning before the pregnancy test indicated 10 would carry the pregnancy, 16 would abort, and 7 were undecided. 1 month after the pregnancy test, all 10 women who anticipated continuing the pregnancy were doing so, 15 of the 16 who anticipated abortion had terminated the pregnancy, and of the 7 undecided women, 6 aborted; 1 woman who initially considered abortion and 1 undecided women eventually decided to continue with the pregnancy. Notable, however, is the consistency of outcome decisions over a 1-month period. Adjustment (the degree of stress) was related primarily to the outcome chosen and, to a lesser extent, to certainty versus indecision. Overall, undecided aborters experienced substantially more decision making stress than decided carriers, with decided aborters occupying an intermediary position. Initially, undecided aborters reported significantly more negative affect and decided aborters showed marginally more negative affect than decided carriers; 1 month after the pregnancy test, however, there was no difference in negative affect. Finally, decisional satisfaction was comparable among decided and undecided aborters, but lower than that recorded among women who continued the pregnancy. In general, these findings suggest that abortion is a short-term stressor and these women soon return to an emotional state comparable to that of their counterparts who carry a pregnancy to term.”

32. This on is a discussion of the same study from 21, but at a different website. But since it is linked to again, I’ll post more of what it says, “Younger age and having more children preabortion also predicted more negative abortion evaluations” (certainly looks like PAS exists)

Psychological Responses of Women After First-Trimester Abortion
Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2000;57:777-784.
Results Two years postabortion, 301 (72%) of 418 women were satisfied with their decision; 306 (69%) of 441 said they would have the abortion again; 315 (72%) of 440 reported more benefit than harm from their abortion; and 308 (80%) of 386 were not depressed. Six (1%) of 442 reported posttraumatic stress disorder. Depression decreased and self-esteem increased from preabortion to postabortion, but negative emotions increased and decision satisfaction decreased over time. Prepregnancy history of depression was a risk factor for depression, lower self-esteem, and more negative abortion-specific outcomes 2 years postabortion. Younger age and having more children preabortion also predicted more negative abortion evaluations.
Conclusions Most women do not experience psychological problems or regret their abortion 2 years postabortion, but some do. Those who do tend to be women with a prior history of depression.


33. This one says that women who have unwanted pregnancies get disturbed (well no duh) and they attribute the PAS to pregnancy, not the abortion.

Psychological alterations following induced abortion
MMW Munch Med Wochenschr. 1981 Jul 3;123(27):1105-8.

“Based on a statistical survey of international literature on 28 psychiatric-psychological follow-up examinations after legal abortion (1948-1974), the following findings can be regarded as reasonably certain: 4%-9% of chronic, mainly depressive faulty developments; 15%-24% of slight, transitory disturbance reactions. The more individually an induced abortion is accounted for and the less there is influence by external regulations, and the better assimilation. The counter-proof: women whose desire for legal abortion had been declined and who carried their child to full term, later on reacted with psychological disturbances of similar intensity. Hence it may be inferred: women with a labile mental structure and unstable conditions of living will in the face of unwanted pregnancy most likely react with disturbances at any rate - whether they carry to full term or not.”

34. This is an opinion piece that says that denial of a requested abortion causes the mothers forced to carry their babies to term to not love their children and end up raising them badly (even claims to say that these children are still harmed after they get to adulthood) and decides that therefore, we should grant ALL abortion requests immediately, for the sake of the child…. Apparently convincing the unhappy mothers-to-be that they should give up the child they were forced to have to adoption instead of hating their children for the next 18 years, never occurred to the writers of this opinion piece

Mental health consequences of abortion and refused abortion
Can J Psychiatry. 1980 Feb;25(1):68-73.

“There are, however, numerous studies which support the contention that mandatory motherhood adversely affects the mental health of both the mother and the offspring. Studies conducted in Sweden, Scotland, and Czechoslovakia revealed that women who were refused abortions frequently experienced serious psychosocial difficulties for long periods of time following abortion refusal. Case controlled follow-up studies, conducted in Sweden and Czechoslovakia, of offspring born to women who were refused abortions demonstrated that a higher proportion of the unwanted children required psychiatric services, engaged in criminal behavior, and did less well in school than the controlled children.”


35. Repeat study….different website…

repeat of which?
Abortion and the Null Hypothesis
Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2000;57:785-786.

“THE RESEARCH reported by Major et al1 is consistent with other well-designed studies of psychological responses of women who have undergone first-trimester abortion. They found that while some women report regret and/or experience psychological problems following an abortion, the majority are satisfied and feel that they benefitted from the abortion. More importantly, rates of psychological dysfunction, including depression and posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) are no higher than those in general populations of same-aged women. Their research is an advance over past studies in that the reasearchers did follow-up on women for 2 years after the abortion, used standardized measures of depression and of PTSD, and had a large sample. It adds further backing for the earlier conclusion of an expert panel convened by the American Psychological Association that abortion is generally "psychologically benign."2”

36. 1976 study, three years after Roe., and it says, “Adverse psychiatric and social sequelae were rare…” (So they already knew it was around)

Psychosocial consequences of therapeutic abortion
The British Journal of Psychiatry 128: 74-79 (1976)

Did you fail to notice it was a British study? Roe isn’t relevant.

“Compared with ratings of psychosocial adjustment before termination, significant improvement had occurred at follow-up in respect of psychiatric symptoms, guilt feelings and interpersonal and sexual adjustment; there was no significant change in marital adjustment. Adverse psychiatric and social sequelae were rare.”

37. “Psychological or psychiatric disturbances occur in association with therapeutic abortions but they seem to be marked, severe, or persistent in only a minority (approximately 10%) of women.” Ten percent of abortions results in severe or persistent psychiatric disturbances? How does this help your argument Cat?

The psychological complications of therapeutic abortion
The British Journal of Psychiatry 160: 742-749 (1992)

“Psychological or psychiatric disturbances occur in association with therapeutic abortions but they seem to be marked, severe, or persistent in only a minority (approximately 10%) of women. These consist mostly of caseness depression and anxiety. Psychoses are very uncommon, being reported in only 0.003% of cases - most of whom have a history of previous psychiatric illness. Certain groups are especially at risk from adverse psychological sequelae; these include those with a past psychiatric history, younger women, those with poor social support, the multiparous, and those belonging to sociocultural groups antagonistic to abortion. This is not to overlook the fact that, adopting a crisis- resolution framework, subsequent termination of an unwanted pregnancy is itself 'therapeutic'.”

38. And this one agrees with 37. above., it says even women who have spontaneous abortions (miscarriages) suffer emotionally nearly 50% of the time…. (again, why linked here? And besides, I'll bet without a study at all, that women who 'want' their baby suffer 100% of the time they have a miscarriage... nonsensical link for a pro-abortionist argument)

The psychiatric consequences of spontaneous abortion
The British Journal of Psychiatry 155: 810-813 (1989)

“Sixty-seven women were interviewed four weeks after spontaneous abortion. As determined by the Present State Examination, 32 of these women were psychiatric cases.”

Um. This shows that miscarriages, not abortions, were linked to psychiatric problems. Compare the numbers from #37 and #38.


Okay Cat-Tribe, your links don’t say what you said they would say… in fact, I think I’ll save them and link to the actual ‘studies’ and not the commentary political ones, because the science ones are good proofs about why abortion rights should be severely limited and much more controlled, if not banned outright entirely.

You are simply wrong. The APA et al and my others sources explain why.


What were you thinking by posting these links Cat-Tribe, I read them all, and apparently you didn’t. And really, the title of this thread really stinks... telling those women that their pain doesn't even exist... Good for you, nice going in belittling other people’s condition. How empathetic of you.

I read them all. I also understood them.

PAS does not exist. Some women have a negative reaction to pregnancy no matter how it ends

Abortion is safer physically and mentally than childbirth, miscarriage, or especially forced childbirth.

Considering I am male, no, I have not. However, IF you read my post, I note that I have helped friends (a couple) after one and saw first hand what they went through and spent a lot of time listening and comforting them for their choice and I know it still hurts them, even though in her case it was nessisity.

My point being though that in this fight for pro-choice, anti-choice, too many people are fighting to fight the other side and do not know or care about the people, both women AND men, who this actually effects.

Read more carefully.

never meant to misread anything anyone's written :confused:
i understand that not all women(or men) are affected the same
but, i've seen a lot of the 'what if's'
personally, i still feel it is a choice
i don't believe govt should be involved in personal issues anyway
i'm new(no kidding), go easy, i'm trying to get this

Was this for me?

No, it was for the originator of this thread (Cat-Tribe). I haven't even read your post yet (I haven't even gotten past the first page).

Force life? I can't believe there are people in the world who think like this. It's really very troubling. If you are legitimately pro-choice, if you believe the rights of the mother trump the rights of the baby, then we can have a debate over which one of us is right.

However, if you call the child a 'lump of cells' and liken it to stepping on a bug or something like that, I just haven't the stomach for your type of insensitivity. Some people in this world just shouldn't try to make arguments for things they don't understand.

I will debate anyone who asks, I always do. I know I'm right that Roe is bad law, even pro-abortion folks tend to agree with that, but if you're willing to debate morals, I'm here too. However, once you start calling a baby a 'worthless lump of tissue leaching off it's mother,' the debate ends, because it's just insensitive, inhuman and down-right evil to say something like that.

Force life? I can't believe there are people in the world who think like this. It's really very troubling. If you are legitimately pro-choice, if you believe the rights of the mother trump the rights of the baby, then we can have a debate over which one of us is right.

However, if you call the child a 'lump of cells' and liken it to stepping on a bug or something like that, I just haven't the stomach for your type of insensitivity. Some people in this world just shouldn't try to make arguments for things they don't understand.

I will debate anyone who asks, I always do. I know I'm right that Roe is bad law, even pro-abortion folks tend to agree with that, but if you're willing to debate morals, I'm here too. However, once you start calling a baby a 'worthless lump of tissue leaching off it's mother,' the debate ends, because it's just insensitive, inhuman and down-right evil to say something like that.

Amen my friend

You only seem to be considering the psychological effects of abortion when the woman on her own decides to have an abortion, or when it's a mutually arrived-at decision between her and the father of the child. But do you honestly think there is no psychological trauma for the girl who is forced into an abortion against her will by her father, husband or boyfriend? And oh yes, this certainly does happen, and it is psychologically devastating to the young woman who would like nothing more than to keep her baby. Everyone likes to think that abortion is something that is always freely chosen by the woman or girl in question - but it isn't. Even in the best of circumstances, there can be external pressures where a woman feels she really has no other choice, and that can be devastating, too.

I certainly would not support the idea of a woman being forced to have an abortion against her will. That is worse than refusing to allow her to make a choice to abort.

But I'd love to see some evidence that significant number of women are forced to have abortions. Nor is banning abortion the only way to prevent such a thing.

As my points apply actual abortions studied and not a theoretical situation, this is something of a red herring.

Do not stand there as a man telling me, a woman, that there is no psychological trauma involved in having an abortion! You simply do not have the capacity to understand.

Do not stand there and claim I said any such thing!

There can be psychological trauma involved in having an abortion, a child, or a miscarriage. Scientifically, abortion is the least traumatic overall. That doesn't mean it isn't far worse for some. Just that it is least likely to be the worst.

It is particularly less traumatic than being forced to have an unwanted child! Don't tell me that is not traumatic.

And, yes, I have a penis and not a vagina. I also have known very closely for many years several women that have had abortions without regrets.

Your emotional blackmail was misplaced and ineffective.

never meant to misread anything anyone's written :confused:
i understand that not all women(or men) are affected the same
but, i've seen a lot of the 'what if's'
personally, i still feel it is a choice
i don't believe govt should be involved in personal issues anyway
i'm new(no kidding), go easy, i'm trying to get this

I'll assume that was ment as an apology and accept. I too am pro-choice for a number of different reasons, logical, moral, and cynical.

If I could make a recomendation for you though, please be careful with how you respond to a post, many board members are not as forgiving as I. ;)

Oh, Cat, nice response to Greenlander. Remind me again NOT to get into a serious argument with you. :D

Abortion is one of the safest surgical procedures for women. The risk
of death associated with abortion is approximately 0.6 per 100,000 abortions, and the risk of major complications is less than 1%. (Centers for Disease Control (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5309a1.htm); Alan Guttmacher Institute (http://www.agi-usa.org/presentations/abort_slides.pdf); American Psychological Association (http://www.apa.org/ppo/issues/womenabortfacts.html)).

Abortion is safer than childbirth. The risk of death when a pregnancy is continued to birth is about 11 times as great as the risk of death from induced abortion. Each year, about 10 women, on average, die from induced abortion, compared with about 260 who die from pregnancy and childbirth.(Centers for Disease Control (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5309a1.htm); Alan Guttmacher Institute (http://www.agi-usa.org/presentations/abort_slides.pdf); American Psychological Association (http://www.apa.org/ppo/issues/womenabortfacts.html)).

Further, from the American Psychological Association (http://www.apa.org/ppo/issues/womenabortfacts.html) -- a neutral, authoritative, professional source:

"Abortion may avoid negative health consequences, especially for teenage mothers. Unintended and unwanted childbearing can have negative health consequences, including greater chances for illness for both the mother and child. The adverse consequences of teenagers’ inability to control their childbearing can be particularly severe. Teenage mothers are more likely to suffer toxemia, anemia, birth complications, and death. Babies of teenage mothers are more likely to have low birth weight and suffer birth injury and neurological defects. Such babies are twice as likely to die in the first year of life as babies born to mothers who delay childbearing until after age 20 (Russo & David, 2002)."

"Low risk of psychological harm. Well-designed studies of psychological responses following abortion have consistently shown that risk of psychological harm is low. Some women experience psychological dysfunction following abortion, but post-abortion rates of distress and dysfunction are lower than pre-abortion rates. Moreover, the percentage of women who experience clinically relevant distress is small and appears to be no greater than in general samples of women of reproductive age. A recent study showed not only that rates of disorders, such as depression and posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD), were not elevated in a large sample of 442 women followed for two years post-abortion, but also that the incidence of PTSD was actually lower in women post-abortion than the rate in the general population (Adler et al., 2002)."

"Positive emotions more often experienced. Freely chosen legal abortion, particularly in the first trimester, has not been found to be associated with severe psychological trauma, despite the fact that it occurs in the stressful context of unwanted pregnancy. The time of greatest stress is before the abortion. A woman’s emotional responses after experiencing an unwanted pregnancy terminated by abortion are complex and may involve a combination of positive and negative emotions. Positive emotions are more often experienced, and they are experienced more strongly than negative emotions, both immediately after the abortion and during the months following it (Russo & Zierk, 1992)."

Finally, although you may question or reject the source as biased , these factsheets from Planned Parenthood document the safety of abortion -- within extensive references to neutral sources: The Emotional Effects of Induced Abortion (http://www.plannedparenthood.org/pp2/portal/files/portal/medicalinfo/abortion/fact-010600-emoteff.xml); Medical And Social Health Benefits Since Abortion Was Made Legal In The U.S. (http://www.plannedparenthood.org/pp2/portal/files/portal/medicalinfo/abortion/fact-abortion-medical-social-benefits.xml).


Here is additional evidence (including multiple studies by a variety of experts published in medical journals) that Post-Abortion Syndrome is pure bullshit:
Psychological implications of abortion — highly charged and rife with misleading research (http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/168/10/1257)
Wellbeing and mental growth-long-term effects of legal abortion. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15081205)
The Psychological Effects of First Trimester Abortion (http://www.prochoiceforum.org.uk/psy_research4.asp)
The psychological sequelae of therapeutic abortion--denied and completed (http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/148/5/578)
The effects of induced abortion on emotional experiences and relationships: a critical review of the literature. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14624822) Post Abortion Stress Syndrome (http://www.msmagazine.com/aug01/pas.html)
Therapeutic abortion and its psychological implications: the Canadian experience (http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/abstract/113/8/754)
The Psychological Effects of Abortion for Adolescents (http://www.prochoiceforum.org.uk/psy_research3.asp)
The Relationship of Abortion to Well-Being. Do Race and Religion Make a Difference? (http://www.nlsbibliography.org/qauthor.php3?xxx=RUSSO,+NANCY+FELIPE)
Abortion (http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic5.htm)
Abortion and its Health Effects (http://www.prochoiceforum.org.uk/psy_research1.asp)
Abortion perils debated (http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/169/2/101-c?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=Abortion+and+Psychiatric+Illness+&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1112588833053_5636&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=1&journalcode=cmaj)
When urban adolescents choose abortion: effects on education, psychological status and subsequent pregnancy. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=2620716&dopt=Abstract)
Termination of pregnancy and psychiatric morbidity (http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/abstract/167/2/243)
Abortion, Reproductive History and Substance Abuse (http://www.prochoiceforum.org.uk/psy_research2.asp)
Unwanted childbearing, health, and mother-child relationships. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10513146&dopt=Abstract)Adolescents and adjustment to abortion: are minors at greater risk? (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12953681)
The Public Health Impact of Legal Abortion: 30 Years Later (http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3502503.html)
Abortion, Childbearing, and Women's Well-Being (http://www.prochoiceforum.org.uk/psy_research5.asp)
Testimony of Nada L. Stotland, MD, MPH to the U.S. Senate Subcommittee on Science, Technology and Space (http://www.prch.org/advocacy_policy/stotland.shtml)
Psychological responses of women after first-trimester abortion. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10920466&dopt=Abstract)
Psychological responses after abortion. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=2181664&dopt=Abstract)
Study Challenges Abortion Trauma (http://www.libchrist.com/other/abortion/trauma.html)
Psychological factors in abortion. A review. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1443858&dopt=Abstract)
The Context for the Development of 'Post-Abortion Syndrome' (http://www.prochoiceforum.org.uk/psy_coun9.asp)
Is abortion a health risk? There is no evidence that abortion poses a risk either to women's mental or physical health. (http://www.spiked-online.com/Printable/0000000054E4.htm)
The myth of the abortion trauma syndrome. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1404747&dopt=Abstract)
Emotional response to abortion: a critical review of the literature. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12316615&dopt=Abstract)
Abortion Psychological Sequelae: the debate and the research (http://www.prochoiceforum.org.uk/psy_coun3.asp)
Psychiatric sequelae to term birth and induced early and late abortion: a longitudinal study. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=4156672&dopt=Abstract)
Pregnancy decision making: predictors of early stress and adjustment (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=12345377&dopt=Abstract)
Psychological Responses of Women After First-Trimester Abortion (http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/57/8/777)
Psychological alterations following induced abortion (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=6789186&dopt=Abstract)
Mental health consequences of abortion and refused abortion (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=6989474&dopt=Abstract)
Abortion and the Null Hypothesis (http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/extract/57/8/785)
Psychosocial consequences of therapeutic abortion (http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/abstract/128/1/74?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=abortion&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1112592868160_5389&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=10&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=1)
The psychological complications of therapeutic abortion (http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/abstract/160/6/742?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=abortion&searchid=1112592976946_695&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance)
The psychiatric consequences of spontaneous abortion (http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/abstract/155/6/810?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=abortion&searchid=1112592976946_695&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance)

You might note that these sources do not come from a handful of biased "researchers."

I'll come back to explan and defend tomorrow.


You deserve a pat on the back and a perma bookmark for future refferance :)

Comment wasn't aimed at you. It's for our buddy M3....

But you have to admit there have been pro life leaders that have said (not exact) "We don't condine violence, but you have to remember they are killing babies in there"

You have to admit there are many pro-life people that support the death penalty.

There are some that think killing abortion doctors is ok.
I dont get that

When it comes to it christian pro lifers say that the baby is inosent the criminal is not

But is it not their religion that judges based on FAITH not ACTIONS?

I dont get that

When it comes to it christian pro lifers say that the baby is inosent the criminal is not

But is it not their religion that judges based on FAITH not ACTIONS?

I wish you wouldn't lump us all into a generalization. Killing someone that is killing babies legally is still wrong. A life is a life.

I wish you wouldn't lump us all into a generalization. Killing someone that is killing babies legally is still wrong. A life is a life.
I apologize you are one of the rare feew that I have run across my bad

Force life? I can't believe there are people in the world who think like this. It's really very troubling. If you are legitimately pro-choice, if you believe the rights of the mother trump the rights of the baby, then we can have a debate over which one of us is right.

However, if you call the child a 'lump of cells' and liken it to stepping on a bug or something like that, I just haven't the stomach for your type of insensitivity. Some people in this world just shouldn't try to make arguments for things they don't understand.

I will debate anyone who asks, I always do. I know I'm right that Roe is bad law, even pro-abortion folks tend to agree with that, but if you're willing to debate morals, I'm here too. However, once you start calling a baby a 'worthless lump of tissue leaching off it's mother,' the debate ends, because it's just insensitive, inhuman and down-right evil to say something like that.
You're just a bundle of inconsistancies aren't you. You'll debate anyone anywhere as long as they don't let their facts get in the way of your emotions.

That lump of cells at the begining of its exceptionally uncertain journey (even without the possibility of a medical abortion) might be wonderous, mysterious, and full of unrealized potential if everything goes just right, but it's not magic. Your entire premise hinges on the presumption that it magic, despite the complete impossibility of presenting evidence to back up that assertion. And everyone who doesn't accept your woefully inadequate premise as gosple truth, they're not worthy of debate. That's a special kind of cowardice and hubris.

That small clump of cells, has not thought, will, or consideration of or for itself, and in so far as it does anything, it does the chemistry it's directed to by the fundemental laws of the universe. It is very much like being delt a hand at poker. For any fertilized egg, or would be human, the odds are long, chances are it won't make it. And while the eventuallity of a baby might be fortuitous, there is no more divine in that realization than there is in a fullhouse. And as in all games where we weigh our chances, sometimes it's better to fold a hand than play it. That understanding, and capacity for reason, is natural; a keen edge honed into our species. It, not any God, has reduced infant mortality from 90% to the exceptional lows we take for granted to day. In the meantime lengthening life and providing more opportunity to carefully raise children, and building the wealth with which to surround them.

Call ME evil. Over the long run, I choose wealth, and life. You on the other hand seek to expand poverty, spread misery, ultimately reaping a bitter harvest of death and degredation. Look at the works science has wrought over the past six hundred years, now look to religion which fought science every step of the way. The only inhumanity here is practiced by the would be tyrants who would seek to live the lives of other people, and leave them to suffer the consequences of the ill considered decisions forced upone them. Learn from the mistakes of your forebears who sought to abolish surgery because it offended their delicate sensibilities, and worse. Is your convience of conscience really more important than another person's freedom? That is where this debate truly begins and ends, whether you choose to declare premature victory and go home, or not.

*bump*