NationStates Jolt Archive


"Winston, we shall meet in the place where there is no darkness."

Drzhen
13-08-2005, 07:27
Free online 1984 copy. (http://www.online-literature.com/orwell/1984/)

After recently viewing 1984 again, and reading the book a few more times, and comparing with other dytopian and otherwise negative outlooks on an orderly society, I have some questions I'd like to pose to people who might have their own personal insight, and some clarifications of my own on questions I have seen here.

I'd like to start with Oligarchial Collectivism. At first, the book was a bit confusing about the role of power. It makes clear that the aim of the Party is power for its own sake, but I had some trouble understanding how having power would be enjoyable if no one really wins, and if no one really enjoys life at all. Until I saw the movie, at the part where the memories of Julia are being replaced with O'Brien, and Winston and O'Brien are in the "Golden Country". "You are the Party." I understand, I think, the role of power. I thought it was individual, as in all normal societies. Oceania was not normal, and I failed to see that. In a warped, inverted, altruistic way, the individuals comprising the Party dedicate themselves to the suffering, the torture, the brainwashing, the destruction, of other individuals, as a form of power, and control. It doesn't make logical sense because frankly, the Party is not logical. "Sometimes 2+2=5, sometimes 3, sometimes 4, sometimes all at once." I never really believed in any objective opinion of evil, but after analyzing 1984 for myself, I think that there is no logical or human way to deny that the system set in place by the Party is not inherently evil. Another motto for the Party, something I think should have been included with the other Three, should be:

Power is Collective



Fascist Communism

I made a note on "fascist communism". It's my opinion that all state-systems supposedly obeying communist values are fascist societies under the guise of communism. Why do I say this? For several reasons. Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=fascism) states that "fascism" is:

1. often Fascism
a. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
b. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
2. Oppressive, dictatorial control.

Now, let's think about Mussolini's Italy, Hitler's Germany, Franco's Spain, Stalin's USSR, for starters. Italy could hardly be said to have espoused racist tendencies. Yet it was fascist because its authority was centralized under Il Duce, its economy was tightly regulated and controlled, it was fiercely nationalist, and suppression of opposing elements was enforced. Germany was much the same, but with enhanced racist elements. The mere fact racism played a part in the way Nazi Germany operated goes to show that the fabric of Nazi German society could not have been maintained without an enemy; in their case, an enemy deemed inferior, and thus, subversive, to 'great' German society. Spain was roughly on par with Italian fascism, as with Portugal. But as for the USSR?

Q: But wasn't it communist?

A: No. Communism, by definition, is the abolition, or the withering away of a centralized government by localized communes.

Q: But didn't planned economy, propaganda, and the fact they had a "Red" and, later on, a "Soviet" Armed Forces make it, at least, socialist?

A: No. Communism and socialism are two different things. "Soviet" is the Russian equivalent word for "commune", or even "community". Planned economy was never part of Marxist rhetoric. In fact, Marx never laid down the blueprint for a Communist society. Nor did any other Communists of his day.

I rest my case.



The Chestnut Tree Cafe

I am confused by the Chestnut Tree Cafe. The fact that people who were "cured" by the Party go to this place, have clove-flavored gin, and sit around playing chess crying doesn't make much metaphorical sense to me. And in practicality, in the eyes of the Party, I see no purpose for the place at all. And even more mysterious, is the ever ambiguous "on the house" by the waiter. What the hell is going on, what am I missing in this picture?
Rotovia-
13-08-2005, 07:33
The entire movie is not literal. In perticular The Chestnut Tree Cafe. It is intended to symbolise the hopeless and futility of all the emotions we as audience members had felt up until that point.

The phrase "on the house" is more ironic than anything else. And highlights that intent of this scene as a darmatic ploy rather than as a factual tale.
Ilura
13-08-2005, 07:42
I think the Chestnut Tree Cafe is there to show the populace the newly cured Party members.

After all, people who just disappear become martyrs. Obviously beaten and tortured people on show trials become martyrs. The Party wishes to prevent having any kind of martyrdom, so the cafe is there to show people that these former deviants really are back into the Party fold once again.
Drzhen
13-08-2005, 07:43
The entire movie is not literal. In perticular The Chestnut Tree Cafe. It is intended to symbolise the hopeless and futility of all the emotions we as audience members had felt up until that point.

The phrase "on the house" is more ironic than anything else. And highlights that intent of this scene as a darmatic ploy rather than as a factual tale.

Good feedback. I had the feeling most of the book wasn't meant to be literal, nor was the movie. I just refuse to accept that there isn't some sort of hidden message in the Chestnut Tree Cafe besides the obvious nostalgia for whatever society lost to the Party.

I thought the phrase was ironic too... I have my book next to me but I'm too lazy to get it out, I'm sure it says something on the lines of "on the house" as well. I just think that Orwell intended for more than for the reader to take it as simple humorous irony.

"Darmatic ploy", I'm sure you mean dramatic, but, do you suggest the scene didn't really happen? In the book, it sure as hell happened.
Drzhen
13-08-2005, 07:50
I think the Chestnut Tree Cafe is there to show the populace the newly cured Party members.

After all, people who just disappear become martyrs. Obviously beaten and tortured people on show trials become martyrs. The Party wishes to prevent having any kind of martyrdom, so the cafe is there to show people that these former deviants really are back into the Party fold once again.

I think I agree with you. Actually, what you mention about martyrdom goes hand-in-hand with the rest of the book. O'Brien mentions the failure of the past totalitarian movements and institutions. Certainly a Chestnut Tree Cafe would eliminate any chance of martyrdom. Good job. :)

On another note, George Orwell used to frequent cafes, and I'm pretty sure one was called the Chestnut Tree, from what I read of his biography. Orwell wrote about the beginning of the Second World War, and I remember him mentioning that he had friends who were in the Communisty Party [of Britain], and were in a discussion about how action against Germany was simply imperialist, concerning the Anschluss. On the loudspeaker was proclaimed war with Germany, and Orwell notes that in midsentence, his friend begins speaking against Germany with particularly strong communist rhetoric. I think that also, the Cafe itself represents whatever leisure was left, if the story on Orwell is taken into account.
Rotovia-
13-08-2005, 08:25
Good feedback. I had the feeling most of the book wasn't meant to be literal, nor was the movie. I just refuse to accept that there isn't some sort of hidden message in the Chestnut Tree Cafe besides the obvious nostalgia for whatever society lost to the Party.

I thought the phrase was ironic too... I have my book next to me but I'm too lazy to get it out, I'm sure it says something on the lines of "on the house" as well. I just think that Orwell intended for more than for the reader to take it as simple humorous irony.

"Darmatic ploy", I'm sure you mean dramatic, but, do you suggest the scene didn't really happen? In the book, it sure as hell happened.
I suggest the entire story never happened. The movie and book borrow borrow in part from Brecht, in that it serves to send a message and not to just tell a tale. That is the reason why this seemingly unusual seen is tolerable. Because it is there to serve a purpose and nothing more.