NationStates Jolt Archive

It seems that the bulletproof cover that dirty politics has thrived under is slowly beginning to crumble. Dare we hope for more to come?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/08/11/abramoff.indictment/index.html

This, by the alleged criminal, is particularly telling:

Abramoff made a fortune from the gaming operations of six Indian tribes while privately mocking tribal leaders as "monkeys" and "morons," according to e-mail obtained by a Senate committee.

This is a connected story:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/08/11/fec.delay.ap/index.html

We can only hope that more truths like this one come to light in the near future. -__-

I hope it's a sign of things to come, because Abramoff can take down DeLay and a bunch of others in the House, and if some Democrats get taken out for corruption along the way, so much the better.

It won't make much difference in the long run. Corruption in government has been around almost as long as government itself, and one might make the argument that it was corruption that spawned the very idea of government in the first place. But as long as there are benefits to being in power, there will be corruption, Best we can hope for is to root it out when we find it.

It seems that the bulletproof cover that dirty politics has thrived under is slowly beginning to crumble. Dare we hope for more to come?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/08/11/abramoff.indictment/index.html

This, by the alleged criminal, is particularly telling:

Abramoff made a fortune from the gaming operations of six Indian tribes while privately mocking tribal leaders as "monkeys" and "morons," according to e-mail obtained by a Senate committee.

Following the whole "innocent until proven guilty" concept, if he's convicted, I hope they nail him and all his cohorts to the wall.

We need more of this on both sides of the political spectrum. Many of Chicago mayor Daley's cronies are getting nailed for providing contracts and jobs for political favors.

I'm happy with this, personally. I've long since moved beyond party ties, and this is just another confirmation of the fact that politicians and their sycophants are the worst America has to offer. Hopefully it brings down plenty of lifer Republicans and Democrats; perhaps we'll have some real leadership rather than these corrupt scum.

I'm happy with this, personally. I've long since moved beyond party ties, and this is just another confirmation of the fact that politicians and their sycophants are the worst America has to offer. Hopefully it brings down plenty of lifer Republicans and Democrats; perhaps we'll have some real leadership rather than these corrupt scum.

I agree. Both houses need a thorough cleansing of corrupt and overly comfortable officials. We need an injection of younger, less jaded officials.

I agree. Both houses need a thorough cleansing of corrupt and overly comfortable officials. We need an injection of younger, less jaded officials.
After following this story (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A26026-2004Dec25.html) and this story (http://www.savethegop.com/archives/2005/07/09/damion-new-jersey-chair-resigns-over-growing-scandal/), I wonder if the young politicians have learned at the feet of their corrupt masters a bit too well, and they're coming in jaded. The second story is particularly telling--it's a story of the head of the New Jersey College Republicans trying to shake down the heads of other campaigns for contributions, Tom DeLay style. He learned real quickly that you can't shake people down when you don't have any real power. Fascinating story all the way around.

I hope it's a sign of things to come, because Abramoff can take down DeLay and a bunch of others in the House, and if some Democrats get taken out for corruption along the way, so much the better.

.
And people call you a blind idealoge.

Really, this is part of why I like you and the people posting here. It's not 'the team' your looking for to win, it's what's best. An actual factual concern for what might be better, not what side has the most cookies.

Needed to be highlighted. So people can learn from the example.

I agree. Both houses need a thorough cleansing of corrupt and overly comfortable officials. We need an injection of younger, less jaded officials.Heck, we need more houses. 2 parties for fifty states just isn't enough. There's 5:16 in Germany (1:3.2) versus 2:50 in the US (1:25)...

Thanks, CToaN. I fully admit to being partisan, but I'm an American first. I never put party over country, because that's just bullshit.

Here's the rest of that second story I posted above (http://alertall.fromtheroots.org/story/2005/7/14/85834/4367). I should note that the New Jersey Republican party, even though they've been having some corruption problems of late, handled this case in absolutely the best way possible. It's a series of emails between the head of the College Republicans and a top dog in the NJGOP, and the adult in the situation just bitchslaps the kid. Here's an excerpt: Steve,

The Forrester campaign forwarded to me the email below which appears to come from you..

If it's not from you, skip the rest of this email.

If it is from you, we have a serious problem that requires immediate attention. Let me suggest that you need to re-read what you wrote, think about the people your working with, and spend this weekend thinking about the reasons I shouldn't share your email with every legislator and county chairman in the state (I can promise you that if I do, the few dollars you've raised will be the last you see from any Republican organization or candidate) and then contact the national CR office to have your ass removed.
And then he gets serious.

It's a great story all the way around, and kudos to the New Jersey Republican party for smacking this kid into shape the way they did.

I hope it's a sign of things to come, because Abramoff can take down DeLay and a bunch of others in the House, and if some Democrats get taken out for corruption along the way, so much the better.
t.

If the guy is convicted, then he should be sentenced. Remember innocent till guilty. Don't harp about this because he might be acquitted.

Of course, I think the democratic party is far more corrupt then the republicans.. because I still have vivid memories of the Clinton years and all the fundraising scandals. Many people were convicted back then.

If the guy is convicted, then he should be sentenced. Remember innocent till guilty. Don't harp about this because he might be acquitted.

Of course, I think the democratic party is far more corrupt then the republicans.. because I still have vivid memories of the Clinton years and all the fundraising scandals. Many people were convicted back then.
I hear this all the time, but never see a list. If there's actually a list, a quick google search ought to turn it up.

I hear this all the time, but never see a list. If there's actually a list, a quick google search ought to turn it up.

Take this source as you wish. It is republican slanted, but it does have a list. I will look up a different source, if you want.

http://members.tripod.com/~GOPcapitalist/clintonpage.html#criminals

Whitewater:
AK Gov. Jim Guy Tucker - fraud felony convictions - 3 counts (Tucker resigned facing impeachment)
Jim McDougal - fraud and conspiracy felony convictions - 18 counts
Susan McDougal - felony - 4 counts (pardoned during Clinton's last minute pardongate payoffs)
William J. Marks Sr - conspiracy
Stephen Smith - conspiracy
Larry Kuca - Fraud
Neal Ainley - 2 misdemeanors for embezzlement
David Hale - guilty plea - conspiracy
Chris Wade - felony - Whitewater real-estate investor
John Haley - recent! 1998 on fraud
Robert Palmer - felony for conspiracy
Charles Matthews - guilty plea for bribery
Eugene Fitzhugh - Whitewater - bribery
Webster Hubbell - #2 ranking Justice Dept. Official - felony for embezzlement and fraud
John Latham - CEO of Madison Bank - bank fraud

Campaign Finance:
Johnny Chung - Clinton cronie - felony guilty plea - funneling money from China
Gene Lum - convicted - felony for money laundering for the DNC
Nora Lum - convicted - felony for money laundering for the DNC
Howard Glicken - guilty plea - 2 midemeanors - funneling foreign donations
Yah Lin "Charlie" Trie - guilty plea - illegal Clinton campaign donations
John Huang - Clinton cronie - felony guilty plea - funneling money from China
Paula Jonesgate:
William Jefferson Clinton - found guilty - civil contempt of court - lying under oath about material facts. The Office of the Independent Council further presented Clinton with an agreement that had him disbarred from practicing law for 5 years and made him signed statement admitting to his deception

Well, you did say fundraising scandals, and a number of the people on that list had absolutely nothing to do with fundraising. David Hale was a straight up conman, and when the prosecutor made his closing arguments, he noted that the Clintons were victims of Hale, and not co-conspirators.

Susan McDougal was in jail for contempt for refusing to testify, but that had nothing to do with fundraising.

Webb Hubbell went to jail over stuff he did in his law firm, whether before or after his time in Washington I don't remember, but it had nothing to do with his time in government service or with the Clintons--it had to do with overbilling clients.

The others on that list I don't recognize, so I can't comment about them.

The list from Chung to Huang I do remember--they were convicted and I'm glad of it.

Edit: Oh yeah--Jim Guy Tucker. He went to jail for his own corruption, nothing to do with Clinton either.

Well, you did say fundraising scandals, and a number of the people on that list had absolutely nothing to do with fundraising. David Hale was a straight up conman, and when the prosecutor made his closing arguments, he noted that the Clintons were victims of Hale, and not co-conspirators.

Well I should of broadened my scope to include general corruption.

And that is what I meant. All my opinion is i think the democrats have far more problems with corruption... not to say I'm not for rooting out dirty politicans from both parties.. i'll be happy when corrupt officials get convicted.

Well I should of broadened my scope to include general corruption.

And that is what I meant.
Yeah, but if you look at the others I discussed, you'll see that their corruption was not linked to the Clinton administration. They were individually dirty, not politically. There is a difference, at least to me, in that it's not part of a larger conspiracy.

What we have here with Abramoff--again, assuming he's convicted--is a web that will go deep into the Republican party. The links have already been established, especially with Tom DeLay. But I'll be happy to wait and see with this one, watch it unfold.

Oh yeah--there's also a link between Abramoff and Ralph Reed, who is currently running for Lt. Governor in Georgia. No matter how you feel about other Republicans, Reed is one of those "gays are destroying America" folks, so you might like to see him get taken down. Just saying.

(In case you can't tell, I'm really trying to keep this on the level of friendly discussion, and not attack.)

Yeah, but if you look at the others I discussed, you'll see that their corruption was not linked to the Clinton administration. They were individually dirty, not politically. There is a difference, at least to me, in that it's not part of a larger conspiracy.

Actually no. A lot of the corruption cases mentioned went deep into the Clinton adminstration, and this went to Clinton himself. But it was Clinton's vice president, Al Gore responsible for much of the corruption:

http://www.mail-archive.com/ctrl@listserv.aol.com/msg45510.html

What we have here with Abramoff--again, assuming he's convicted--is a web that will go deep into the Republican party. The links have already been established, especially with Tom DeLay. But I'll be happy to wait and see with this one, watch it unfold.

I don't agree. In fact I think the republicans will successfully distance themselves from him.

Oh yeah--there's also a link between Abramoff and Ralph Reed, who is currently running for Lt. Governor in Georgia. No matter how you feel about other Republicans, Reed is one of those "gays are destroying America" folks, so you might like to see him get taken down. Just saying.

I wouldn't care because I don't live there. I just don't think the democrats as a whole are any better. So don't try to bring my sexuality into this. I have voted democrat once or twice (once for LA's mayor race, and once for a prosecutor here in LA or something along that lines).

I wouldn't care because I don't live there. I just don't think the democrats as a whole are any better. So don't try to bring my sexuality into this. I have voted democrat once or twice (once for LA's mayor race, and once for a prosecutor here in LA or something along that lines).
That's more than a bit short-sighted--what happens in one part of the US has repercussions everywhere. But whatever--you're the one these people want to throw in jail for being unnatural (and no, I'm not talking about Republicans in general--just the asshole ones).

That's more than a bit short-sighted--what happens in one part of the US has repercussions everywhere. But whatever--you're the one these people want to throw in jail for being unnatural (and no, I'm not talking about Republicans in general--just the asshole ones).

And I think there are plenty of democrats who think the same way. So don't try to get me to take a side. I'm not short-sighted at all, and I'm not as partisan as you.

I'm not short-sighted at all, and I'm not as partisan as you.

*puffs*

Mesatecala: you're being short-sighted. Just a friendly heads-up for you there.

*puffs*

*puffs*

Mesatecala: you're being short-sighted. Just a friendly heads-up for you there.

*puffs*

Dude...puff puff pass.