NationStates Jolt Archive

The concept of hell as a separation from god
Is that even possible if god as often described is omnipresent?

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*gags you and hauls you away*

NO ONE expects the Spanish Inquisition!

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*gags you and hauls you away*

NO ONE expects the Spanish Inquisition!
OH NO NOT THE COMFY CHAIR!!

...Y'know. That's a good question. I'd never thought of that.

OH NO NOT THE COMFY CHAIR!!Our chief weapon is suprise. Surprise and fear...

Confess!
Confess!
CONFESS!

I confess!

NOT YOU!!! :mad:
( :p )

The concept of hell as a separation from god
Is that even possible if god as often described is omnipresent?

I suppose He could ignore you...

...Y'know. That's a good question. I'd never thought of that.
Yeah before this thread gets threadjacked

Really so many logical issues with an omni everything deity

I suppose He could ignore you...
But he would still be there

And if he chooses to not be in hell with us then can it be said that he is omnipresent?

nothing is impossible with god. and since he IS everywhere it would be truly terrifying to be placed somewhere where he is not (an alternate universe perhaps?)

i dont find the concept to be particularily biblical. where is the passage saying that that is what hell is? its more of a "big thinking" notion of the type that protestants are constantly dissing the catholic church for.

This is an interesting and thought-provoking ques-

ERROR! ERROR! MALFUNCTION! MALFUNCTION!

System meltdown in thirty seconds, twenty-nine, twenty-eight...

Emergency system shut-down. Initiating Christian Survival Mode.

Rebooting systems. Running Survival software. Activating Assault on Secret Satan-lover's unHoly and Obnoxious Liberal Extremism (ASSHOLE)

It doesn't matter, because you are going to hell, you godless creature of deception and chaos!...*goes into rant about gays and pagans taking over the world and sending children to hell*

*gives himself annuerism, heart attack, and stroke all at the same time*

*dies*

in other words, I have no idea how to answer that question.

nothing is impossible with god. and since he IS everywhere it would be truly terrifying to be placed somewhere where he is not (an alternate universe perhaps?)


But if he IS everywhere you CANT be placed somewhere he is not

this becomes a question of logicial problems with omni everything god

Is it possible for an omni present omni potent god to move you to a place he is not

IF yes he is then not omni present obviously because you are in a place he is not present

If no he is not omnipotent ... not powerfull enough to do so

Interesting thought....It's possible to feel far from God even with his omnipresence....so being given the desire to be close to him...and then being thrown spiritually an impossible distance away could be torturous....but I don't think that the concept of Hell as eternal seperation from God is biblical, so I disagree with the concept anyway...I'll have to look into this more. Thanks for the though-provoking concept!

*mumbles*

At least this isn't particularly controversial....no spending two days awake arguing my point for this one....damn genetics.....

But if he IS everywhere you CANT be placed somewhere he is not

this becomes a question of logicial problems with omni everything god

Is it possible for an omni present omni potent god to move you to a place he is not

IF yes he is then not omni present obviously because you are in a place he is not present

If no he is not omnipotent ... not powerfull enough to do so

If I find that the concept is biblical, it could become a question of flawed human logic....or the impossibility to comprehend, similar to our logical problem with understanding eternity, and God's existance before existance...some things we may never be able to understand...and becomes a question of faith. *shrugs* I'm gonna see how biblical the concept is first, then come back...then worry about defending it if need be.....

If I find that the concept is biblical, it could become a question of flawed human logic....or the impossibility to comprehend, similar to our logical problem with understanding eternity, and God's existance before existance...some things we may never be able to understand...and becomes a question of faith. *shrugs* I'm gonna see how biblical the concept is first, then come back...then worry about defending it if need be.....
I would be interested as well I have seen the proposition that god is omnieverything often enough but I have not seen anyone back that up with scripture (not to say it cant be done ... just no one bothers)

Maybe you just proved that hell doesn't exist! :D

I never thought it did anyway.

Interesting thought....It's possible to feel far from God even with his omnipresence....so being given the desire to be close to him...and then being thrown spiritually an impossible distance away could be torturous....but I don't think that the concept of Hell as eternal seperation from God is biblical, so I disagree with the concept anyway...I'll have to look into this more. Thanks for the though-provoking concept!

*mumbles*

At least this isn't particularly controversial....no spending two days awake arguing my point for this one....damn genetics.....
Lol fair enough … it came to me in another thread … and is different enough from the “rock that god can not move” question to make it interesting

The concept of hell as a separation from god
Is that even possible if god as often described is omnipresent?

Perhaps omnipresent applies in our universe, but not in hell? Perhaps the omnipresent nature of God has to do with current creation with God being a part of everything?

Can an omnipotent deity not decide not to be omnipresent?

Maybe you just proved that hell doesn't exist! :D

I never thought it did anyway.
:) at least hell as a separation from god


And if that is the case would it also not be the case that god himself is already in hell? lol

Fun Fact....Until the 19th century, hell was considered cold ( :confused: ).

Ya, that is wierd if you think on it..... Arrrgh!! Soooooooo many conflicts this christianity has! I guess that God would an eye on it, it doesn't exist, or he let Satan have it (to balance out the universe). Or maybe Satan is pretty powerful, or they're sorta equal, uknow, working together (it's a conspiracy!!!!!!).

Maybe you just proved that hell doesn't exist! :D

I never thought it did anyway."And God disolves in a puff of logic". You see, it says that Hell is separation from God in the Bible (according to someone in the thread where Sin asked about Christian Philosophy)... So the Bible might be wrong...

:) at least hell as a separation from god


And if that is the case would it also not be the case that god himself is already in hell? lol


Hehe - personally I keep coming back to the thought that if Hell exists then we are in it right now.

Hehe - personally I keep coming back to the thought that if Hell exists then we are in it right now.

It's a conspiracy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Perhaps omnipresent applies in our universe, but not in hell? Perhaps the omnipresent nature of God has to do with current creation with God being a part of everything?

Can an omnipotent deity not decide not to be omnipresent?
Sure he could decide such … but then he would hardly be omnipotent anymore … having decided to remove his potency

Hehe - personally I keep coming back to the thought that if Hell exists then we are in it right now.

Just turn on the evening news. According to them we must be experiencing hell on earth.

Sure he could decide such … but then he would hardly be omnipotent anymore … having decided to remove his potency

One does not have to be omnipresent to be omnipotent.

Meanwhile, placing voluntary limits on your power doesn't make you less omnipotent. You still could do whatever you have limited, you have simply chosen not to.

It is like saying that choosing not to go to the mall means I have no freedom of movement. I could go there if I want, I just choose not to.

"And God disolves in a puff of logic". You see, it says that Hell is separation from God in the Bible (according to someone in the thread where Sin asked about Christian Philosophy)... So the Bible might be wrong...


MIght be? I would lay odds on it being wrong. No need to point out it's logical fallacies to me. I could care less about someone elses version of God, the afterlife or whatever. I think each persons personal idea of God is personal and only applies to them.

Maybe it's like that book "On a Pale Horse" about the Grim reaper, he goes to collect the soul of a guy who doesn't believe in God so when the guy dies, his soul dissolves when he reaches for it.

One does not have to be omnipresent to be omnipotent.

Meanwhile, placing voluntary limits on your power doesn't make you less omnipotent. You still could do whatever you have limited, you have simply chosen not to.

It is like saying that choosing not to go to the mall means I have no freedom of movement. I could go there if I want, I just choose not to.
Close but god does not just have “freedom of movement” he IS EVERYWHERE

Not just the ability to travel to like us limited humans but he IS everywhere rather then the ability to go there

Just turn on the evening news. According to them we must be experiencing hell on earth.


I just have to think back about my life and the crap I went thru.. I don't need the evening news to make me think living on this plane sucks.

I just have to think back about my life and the crap I went thru.. I don't need the evening news to make me think living on this plane sucks.
agreed :p :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle:

Close but god does not just have “freedom of movement” he IS EVERYWHERE

Everywhere to us.

Is God everywhere to God?

You are assuming that our universe is all there is.

Meanwhile, you still haven't explained how choosing not to be omnipresent would limit omnipotency.

The concept of hell as a separation from god
Is that even possible if god as often described is omnipresent?
The Christian God may be omniscient and omnipotent but He's not omnipresent. This goes hand in hand with free will. You can make the choice to remove yourself spiritually from God, you'll always be in his sight, but not within His grace. And there's nothing He can do to force you, because then you wouldn't really have free will and He wouldn't be a God of Truth.

And that's what makes the Evangelicals attempts to extort people to their faith through force of law, and willingness to embrace sophistry to funny. Even if they're right, according to their doctrine they're wrong.

Everywhere to us.

Is God everywhere to God?

You are assuming that our universe is all there is.

Meanwhile, you still haven't explained how choosing not to be omnipresent would limit omnipotency.
Im not sure it would limit omnipotency but it would limint the status of the omnipresency

And I am making no such assumptions about this universe

The concept of hell as a separation from god
Is that even possible if god as often described is omnipresent?

Perhaps this will help clear it up some:

Even though God is omnipresent, if you believe as a christian does, you can still be "separate" from God. This is because you do not have a relationship with God, such as the way you have a relationship with a human friend (some places in the Bible describes the relationship as lovers, but I'd prefer one of best friends). We do not naturally have a relation/friendship with God because we're human and sinful, and since we constantly keep on sinning, we don't cultivate a relationship with God as easily as if we didn't sin (wow, I'm really starting to sound a little....weird....to me, rumaging in my memories).

Basically, separationg from God is not having a relationship with him. Thus, in a nutshell and simplified version of christianity, hell is not having a relationship with God.

Mind you, even though I am a christian, I am by no means the most qualified person here to debate or enlighten people on it's teachings. But I'll try.

Im not sure it would limit omnipotency but it would limint the status of the omnipresency

Yes, it would. But that limitation could be choice.

Of course, you still haven't addressed the idea that God is omnipotent in this universe alone.

And I am making no such assumptions about this universe

Human beings can only logically make statements concerning this universe. Anything else is no better than simple guesses.

Good question. I am of the opinion that God is God and I am just human and no matter how smart I think I am will never be able to grasp what being God means or understand how limitless his powers are so I just try not to think about it. Although I could be completly confused about the whole thing and not really understand what my point was either.
anyway Good Question.

The concept of hell as a separation from god
Is that even possible if god as often described is omnipresent?


Since god is little more than an imaginary friend I suppose he could be in hell or out of hell. Especially since hell is an imaginary place...well I guess they go well together.

But if he IS everywhere you CANT be placed somewhere he is not

this becomes a question of logicial problems with omni everything god

Is it possible for an omni present omni potent god to move you to a place he is not

IF yes he is then not omni present obviously because you are in a place he is not present

If no he is not omnipotent ... not powerfull enough to do so
paradoxes are only paradoxes to US. if god wants to put you in a place where he is not, he can.

or perhaps its not a place at all but something god DOES to you that makes it impossible for you to feel his presence. much like being "blind" to god.

since he IS omnipresent we dont know what not feeling him would be like. its probably not a good idea to try to find out.

The concept of hell as a separation from god
Is that even possible if god as often described is omnipresent?

I think that it's like how I was in class. Yeah, I showed up everyday and sat in my assigned seat and everything. But mentally I was on the sandy beaches of Aruba or whatever. Maybe it's something like this.

More likely, God's omnipresence can describe his awareness as well as his relationship to us and to his creation. In Hell, the relationship aspect of his presence is absent, but his awareness of everything that's going on, and the awareness of those in Hell of his existence and character, is still present.

Either way, it doesn't really matter because God is real and Hell is a real place that you don't want to be.

Perhaps this will help clear it up some:

Even though God is omnipresent, if you believe as a christian does, you can still be "separate" from God. This is because you do not have a relationship with God, such as the way you have a relationship with a human friend (some places in the Bible describes the relationship as lovers, but I'd prefer one of best friends). We do not naturally have a relation/friendship with God because we're human and sinful, and since we constantly keep on sinning, we don't cultivate a relationship with God as easily as if we didn't sin (wow, I'm really starting to sound a little....weird....to me, rumaging in my memories).

Basically, separationg from God is not having a relationship with him. Thus, in a nutshell and simplified version of christianity, hell is not having a relationship with God.

Mind you, even though I am a christian, I am by no means the most qualified person here to debate or enlighten people on it's teachings. But I'll try.

This is a pretty good explanation.

Hell does not exist independently of our beliefs, it only exists insofar as we create it for ourselves by forgetting that we are part of God and there is nothing that is "not God". I would say Hell is the illusion of separation from God and each other.

Although people often and rightfully, perhaps even usually, think of God when they accept him, as sort of like finding refuge, a tower, on the rock, they think of themselves entering into the house NOT built on sand etc., and this is all fine. However, there is the other aspect of what the scripture says about God and what Holiness is like in regards to non-holiness, as it pertains to evil and hell and the powers that be...

Have any of you read Dante’s Inferno? Do you remember when our hero gets stopped and was need, when the guide was stopped and the tour was seemingly over because one of the gate keepers refused to open the gates and let them pass.. but the archangel soon came, walking and in no hurry but seemingly pre-occupied and irritated that this little job required his attention, annoyed perhaps… But all the same, he came and simply ‘walked’ to the gate, taped once and it was opened, no effort, no energy, no battle at all and then he gave our hero and his guide a parting glance, look of acknowledgment but of disinterest and left? This doesn’t seem to be so far from the truth as far as I can tell.

Hell holds no challenge towards God anymore, there is no locked or hidden place anywhere that Jesus did not open up once he was crucified and descended into hell, breaking the gates and destroying deaths grip on mankind before returning to earth three days later. Lucifer now has no corner to hide in anymore, when it comes to Hell, God can go in whenever he wants, Hell’s gates can not hold Jesus nor any of his appointed ones out, even God’s assistants are unhindered and unchallenged by the gates of hell anymore. Hell does not have God in it because God does not choose to be there.

Matthew 16:18 (NRSV)
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.

Notice this again, it doesn’t say that Peter wouldn’t be overcome by the powers of hell attacking him (the Church) no, it says that Hades’ gates would not prevail against him, because Peter (the Church) would attack hell, not the vice versa.

Matthew 16:18 (NRSV)
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.

Notice this again, it doesn’t say that Peter wouldn’t be overcome by the powers of hell attacking him (the Church) not is says that Hades’ gates would not prevail against him, because Peter (the Church) would attack hell, not the vice versa.


Could you clarify this last part for me? I'm...more than a little confused....maybe if you reworded it?

Could you clarify this last part for me? I'm...more than a little confused....maybe if you reworded it?

Yeah, I had to fix that, got to typing too fast and had to go get the sauce on the stove :D

Does it make more sense now (look back up there)?

"Hell has no defense that can withstand the attack of the Church."

I've found a lot of verses in the Bible regarding hell, but none so far that describe the nature of it. Methinks anything people are saying about it is purely speculation, or interpretation of scriptures I can't find.....I'll keep looking, but I can't seem to find any concept of hell with scriptural backing. But as far as the seemingly normal christian concept of it, it's pretty close to what Illicia was saying, I think.....that's what I hear most often when it's spoken of.....but in reality it's not something I think much about. It's not a place I'm going, so I don't worry myself about what it's like.

As apart of ancient Jewish law, when a person sinned they were supposed to get one of their finest livestock, usually a lamb, and they would then give it to the priest and he would sacrifice it for that person's sins. After a couple thousand years of this God decided that it was time to just be done with sin so he sent Jesus to be the ultimate lamb for everyone that was alive and for everyone not yet born.
So now if a person does not accept Jesus then they don't have a good enough sacrifice, which means they die with sin, which means that they can't be in the presence of God. God=light sin=darkness, there can be no darkness in light. The Bible also says that those in Hell will be able to see those in Heaven, but those in Heaven will not be able to see those in Hell.
Also Heaven and Hell don't have demmensions like the physical realm so God being Omnipresent doesn't really matter.

Yeah, I had to fix that, got to typing too fast and had to go get the sauce on the stove :D

Does it make more sense now (look back up there)?

"Hell has no defense that can withstand the attack of the Church."

I guess that makes sense, hm....It looks like Hades and Hell are different, however.....Hades also refers to something in revelations. Death is the pale horse rider, with hades following close behind.(R. 6:8) Also, in Revelations Jesus is said to "Hold the keys to death and hades"(R. 1:18).....and "Hell" is used often in Matthew as well, so why would they suddenly choose hades to mean hell for that verse? Also, Death and Hades are later thrown into the lake of fire (most likely hell, described as the second death).(R. 20:13-15) A question then would be.....who or what does hades represent?

R. 20:13 leads me to believe that Death and Hades represent the place where any people go upon dying on this earth, and then they're judged in heaven....then comes hell. Since I don't know much about this stuff, where would that be? (not purgatory, that's something different)

As apart of ancient Jewish law, when a person sinned they were supposed to get one of their finest livestock, usually a lamb, and they would then give it to the priest and he would sacrifice it for that person's sins. After a couple thousand years of this God decided that it was time to just be done with sin so he sent Jesus to be the ultimate lamb for everyone that was alive and for everyone not yet born.
So now if a person does not accept Jesus then they don't have a good enough sacrifice, which means they die with sin, which means that they can't be in the presence of God. God=light sin=darkness, there can be no darkness in light. The Bible also says that those in Hell will be able to see those in Heaven, but those in Heaven will not be able to see those in Hell.
Also Heaven and Hell don't have demmensions like the physical realm so God being Omnipresent doesn't really matter.

Do you have any scriputre to back these claims up? I don't mean to be nitpicky, and some of the things said make sense, I just believe we should be presenting evidence of our claims whenever possible...especially that bit about those in hell being able to see heaven..

(Wow, I've been active...58 posts in Two days o.o)

Do you have any scriputre to back these claims up? I don't mean to be nitpicky, and some of the things said make sense, I just believe we should be presenting evidence of our claims whenever possible...especially that bit about those in hell being able to see heaven..

I can't find the specific bible verse about what you can and can't see in heaven or in hell. But think of it this way...The sinless (those in heaven) are the light in the after life and the sinful (those in hell) are the darkness in the after life. So if you were in the darkness you would be able to see the light, but if you were the light you would not be able to see the darkness.

The question is useless because we, as humans, cannot understand perfection. Have you ever also considered that Hell is a part of God?