NationStates Jolt Archive

I'll just clear a few things up first: I am not a theist, but all of my immediate family are very devout Christians who all believe that, when push comes to shove, the Church should condone sending condoms to Africa to combat AIDS. This method is by no means the only way to reduce the numbers of AIDS cases. Another very effective method is to educate the children of Africa on AIDS and its causes. Many denominations of the Church are helping children orphaned by this epidemic. I just think it could be doing more.

Further more, we simply don't have time to try to make a significant change in African ure: Pre-marital sex( and rape unfortunately) are rampant among the tribes, and the former at least is generally accepted.

I know the Church would probably look hypocritical to some people if it made an exception for people engaging in fornication in Africa. On the other hand, its obvious AIDS has gotten majorly out of control. So when there are no perfect routes before you, you must take the path that is closest to perfect. Issues this big are not black and white.

AIDS will go down in the annals of history alongside the name of the Bubonic Plague and the like. A central theme to Jesus teachings is stated in the Judgement of the Nations: Put simply, always strive to help those worse off than you are. AIDS victims in Africa are worse off than most people in the rest of the world can possibly imagine. I call upon Christians: Please, cast your doubts aside, and send condoms to Africa.

*applauds*

People aren't going to stop having sex. Not sending condoms is not going to accomplish that goal, as the goal is impossible. But in the pursuit of "morality,"(a morality not all share btw) the Catholic church and the USA have missed the point - Jesus would have put the lives and happiness of the people above his views on reproduction and contraception, period.

Jesus would have put the lives and happiness of the people above his views on reproduction and contraception, period.
That's rather funny, because I believe that he was rather anti-prostitution (Which involves playing at "reproduction and contraception" in order to bring "happiness" to the john and support the "lives" of the prostitutes via an influx of "E-Z C@$H" and "KWIK BUX", as well as . . . other etceteras).

Anyway, AIDS is nowhere near the bubonic plague, its more along the lines of widespread murder(Rape victims and babies)/suicides(Every other "victim").
But then, I'm just one miserable Rat-bastard objectivist, so what do I know (other than the truth)?

Originally posted by: HN Fiddlebottoms the V111

AIDS is nowhere near the bubonic plague

I wasn't saying they were akin as far as casualties go. But it is one of the most widespread and awful epidemics of our time.

And what does your being a "rat b@stard captialist" have to do with anything??

Jesus would have put the lives and happiness of the people above his views on reproduction and contraception, period.

In this case, Happiness sure doesn't involve sex.

*applauds*

People aren't going to stop having sex. Not sending condoms is not going to accomplish that goal, as the goal is impossible. But in the pursuit of "morality,"(a morality not all share btw) the Catholic church and the USA have missed the point - Jesus would have put the lives and happiness of the people above his views on reproduction and contraception, period.



No...Jesus was rather strict when it came to sexual immorality.

Originally posted by: HN Fiddlebottoms the V111

AIDS is nowhere near the bubonic plague

I wasn't saying they were akin as far as casualties go. But it is one of the most widespread and awful epidemics of our time.

And what does your being a "rat b@stard captialist" have to do with anything??


He's trying to troll for sympathy. Victim complex. What about the babies who are infected by their mother's while giving birth? Those suicides? What about the wives who can't tell their husbands to use condoms? Those suicides? What about the people who are lied too? Those suicides?

No...Jesus was rather strict when it came to sexual immorality.
Ah yes, Romans 2:14
"Yay, for the fags, the raped, and those who have sex with other people who they are not married to shall be cast into the brimstone fired pits of hell."


What ever happened to tolerance Rogolia? Let god deal with the judging, until then I think it's a bit more pertinant to deal with the problem instead of pretending it doesn't exist.

No...Jesus was rather strict when it came to sexual immorality.

And Lo! Jesus said unto them: Tis better for a million innocent to die, than wear a little rubber thing on your Johnny.

For anyone on this thread who wants to know how HIV positives feel, I encourage u to go out and watch Living with Slim, a powerful documentary focusing on HIV positive children.

No...Jesus was rather strict when it came to sexual immorality.

Perhaps my wording was off. I meant that Jesus would not let people suffer and die to make a point about his views on reproduction/fornication/etc.

And what does your being a "rat b@stard captialist" have to do with anything??
Alright, it is objectivist now, which makes more since in that area. It means I believe that when someone does someone causes their own problems, its their own fault. Most AIDS victims cause their own problems, so they don't deserve anyone's sympathy or help.
Oh yes, the point of that statement (the rat-bastard bit) was sarcasm, and somewhat abrasive.

He's trying to troll for sympathy. Victim complex. What about the babies who are infected by their mother's while giving birth? Those suicides? What about the wives who can't tell their husbands to use condoms? Those suicides? What about the people who are lied too? Those suicides?
I can troll for sympathy, didn't know that. New tool in my repetoire then. And the infected babies? New murder victims then. The wives, suicides. People who are lied to, they're probably frolicking a bit far a field (risky behaviour and all that) and are suicides. This is bordering on hijack, so I will leave you all now.

Goodnight (or afternoon, or morning, or evening, or whatever), bon ami.

Ah yes, Romans 2:14
"Yay, for the fags, the raped, and those who have sex with other people who they are not married to shall be cast into the brimstone fired pits of hell."


What ever happened to tolerance Rogolia? Let god deal with the judging, until then I think it's a bit more pertinant to deal with the problem instead of pretending it doesn't exist.




Matthew 15:16-20 "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them. 17"Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' "


Now where did I even say we limit AIDS education anyway?

Ah yes, Romans 2:14
"Yay, for the fags, the raped, and those who have sex with other people who they are not married to shall be cast into the brimstone fired pits of hell."


What ever happened to tolerance Rogolia? Let god deal with the judging, until then I think it's a bit more pertinant to deal with the problem instead of pretending it doesn't exist.

I highly doubt she was judging/moralizing/preaching. My wording was off, I don't think she was trying to disparage AIDS victims(You hear that HN Fiddlbottoms the whatever, victims*stickstongueout*) homosexuals or fornicators. She was just correcting my mistake.

Originally posted by: HN Fiddlebottoms V111:

Most AIDS victims cause their own problems, so they don't deserve anyone's sympathy or help.

Hoo boy, if everyone held to that principle( which is, if I understand u rightly, Look out for yourself and no one else) this planet would be totally friggin' screwed. Anyway, AIDS is definitely not confined to Africa. Its having a big boom in India at the moment, and a smaller one in Eastern Europe. The fact of the matter is, if something isn't done, it could become a serious threat to residents of EVERY continent on the globe, i.e. it could very well become YOUR PROBLEM!!

I highly doubt she was judging/moralizing/preaching. My wording was off, I don't think she was trying to disparage AIDS victims(You hear that HN Fiddlbottoms the whatever, victims*stickstongueout*) homosexuals or fornicators. She was just correcting my mistake.
No, she was preaching. She does this.

I highly doubt she was judging/moralizing/preaching. My wording was off, I don't think she was trying to disparage AIDS victims(You hear that HN Fiddlbottoms the whatever, victims*stickstongueout*) homosexuals or fornicators. She was just correcting my mistake.


Your wording wasn't off. She meant exactly that. Unfortunately, there are large numbers of Christians who see all sickness as a punishment of wicked behavior. The "innocent" victims are merely collateral damage in God's war on Sin. There are literally millions of right-wing Christians who think AIDS is a tool of God to smite homosexuals and that it is a wonderful part of God's beautiful plan.

Your wording wasn't off. She meant exactly that. Unfortunately, there are large numbers of Christians who see all sickness as a punishment of wicked behavior. The "innocent" victims are merely collateral damage in God's war on Sin. There are literally millions of right-wing Christians who think AIDS is a tool of God to smite homosexuals and that it is a wonderful part of God's beautiful plan.
*cough*godhatesfags*cough*

Your wording wasn't off. She meant exactly that. Unfortunately, there are large numbers of Christians who see all sickness as a punishment of wicked behavior. The "innocent" victims are merely collateral damage in God's war on Sin. There are literally millions of right-wing Christians who think AIDS is a tool of God to smite homosexuals and that it is a wonderful part of God's beautiful plan.

I don't neccisarily believe that. I've seen her around a few threads, and while ferverently Christian, I don't think she joins *those* ranks.

Whether or not I misspoke depends on what part of my post she was responding to. If it was the last sentance then my wording was muddled as pointed out by a few others. If the entire post then perhaps there's an issue, but I'll give her the benefit of the doubt until I know otherwise.

Your wording wasn't off. She meant exactly that. Unfortunately, there are large numbers of Christians who see all sickness as a punishment of wicked behavior. The "innocent" victims are merely collateral damage in God's war on Sin. There are literally millions of right-wing Christians who think AIDS is a tool of God to smite homosexuals and that it is a wonderful part of God's beautiful plan.


I think I'm going to report you to moderation for defamation and just plain lying. I never said that. That is, unless you apologize for saying it.

I think I'm going to report you to moderation for defamation and just plain lying. I never said that. That is, unless you apologize for saying it.
He was using an example, he never said that you per se said that. Settle down Neo Rogolia.

Settle kids... settle. No need to involve the Modsquad.

Gartef, she did not say any of that.

Neo Rogolia, it wasn't overtly directed at you. More of a blanket statement. I don't think it would be actionable, at any rate.

In my humble, non-Mod-ified opinion of course.

First off....

Jesus was a rabbi, in the strongest and truest sense of the word. His views on sexual behavior were sensible and pretty strict (although I agree that he'd rather avoid the deaths of millions than prove a point; he'd rather prove a point and let the people live). Secondly, sending condoms to Africa will do precious little to stop the epidemic.

Hmmm.... if there are any right-wing groups who preach that sh!t then I haven't heard of them. Though it is in character with Old Testament/ The Inferno-esque image of God.

First off....

Jesus was a rabbi, in the strongest and truest sense of the word. His views on sexual behavior were sensible and pretty strict (although I agree that he'd rather avoid the deaths of millions than prove a point; he'd rather prove a point and let the people live). Secondly, sending condoms to Africa will do precious little to stop the epidemic.

Perhaps not just sending condoms, but condoms with instructions, and a program to have cultures accept condom use and other safe sex techniques could be very effective. It should ideally be coupled with general sex ed programs, greater education overall, and better access to modern medicine.

It seems logical that a well funded and executed program along those lines would seriously reduce the spread of the disease.

I think I'm going to report you to moderation for defamation and just plain lying. I never said that. That is, unless you apologize for saying it.

Well... you haven't reported anyone to moderation today, so I guess you're due back there. ;) I'm sure they'll be thrilled to see you.

First. I didn't specifically say that you held those views. Maybe, I was implying guilt by association, though - Coz funny thing is... Your denial is a "non-denial" denial. You don't deny having those views, you just deny voicing them specifically.

Nearly every verse you quote and opinion you give supports the "disease as judgement" mentality. Don't get angry at me for simply reading your posts and seeing what you obviously appear to be. If you want me to apologize to you, then simply state that you do not believe that AIDS is a judgement from God on sinners. If you can do that, I'll say I'm sorry.

Hmmm.... if there are any right-wing groups who preach that sh!t then I haven't heard of them. Though it is in character with Old Testament/ The Inferno-esque image of God.
I have. There are a few that run around to churches picketing the pro-gay ones, and a few more who picket notable gay funerals. Quite disgusting.

While giving out condoms and instructions on its use may help control the epidemic, it is not Christianity's place to do that. When there is so much that needs to be done in that country, such as caring for the orphans both HIV+ and HIV- of this crisis, why would Christian organizations want to get involved in a program that many members would find objectionable? There are a lot of different types of releif work that need to be done in that region, it makes no sense for Christian organizations to get into the only area they find objectionable when there is so much that needs to be done in other areas. Let other organizations do the safe sex education and let the Christians deal with the orphans, the famine, and other problems plaguing the nation.

Very true the church no matter what church catholic or protestant must rise and unite in this matter same with other matters like reconverting europe since i heard you can be put in prison by the EU to say "christ is the light"

While giving out condoms and instructions on its use may help control the epidemic, it is not Christianity's place to do that. When there is so much that needs to be done in that country, such as caring for the orphans both HIV+ and HIV- of this crisis, why would Christian organizations want to get involved in a program that many members would find objectionable? There are a lot of different types of releif work that need to be done in that region, it makes no sense for Christian organizations to get into the only area they find objectionable when there is so much that needs to be done in other areas. Let other organizations do the safe sex education and let the Christians deal with the orphans, the famine, and other problems plaguing the nation.
They don't have to help. If they'd quit obstructing, I don't think anyone would have a problem with them sitting this one out.

let think folks - botswana has been blanketed in condoms and their AIDS rate is something like 30% and climbing - Uganda has programs that teach abstinence and encourage fidelity; their AIDS rate dropped from 9% to 4% and is still falling

condoms do work, most of the time, enough times and you'll hit a hitch

let think folks - botswana has been blanketed in condoms and their AIDS rate is something like 30% and climbing - Uganda has programs that teach abstinence and encourage fidelity; their AIDS rate dropped from 9% to 4% and is still falling

condoms do work, most of the time, enough times and you'll hit a hitch
What about thailand?

First off....

Jesus was a rabbi, in the strongest and truest sense of the word. His views on sexual behavior were sensible and pretty strict (although I agree that he'd rather avoid the deaths of millions than prove a point; he'd rather prove a point and let the people live). Secondly, sending condoms to Africa will do precious little to stop the epidemic.

Jesus wasnt a rabbi infact he didnt like being called a rabbi his teaching where to far away from traditional jewish teachings he was the son of god trying to correct the mistakes in the bible

Very true the church no matter what church catholic or protestant must rise and unite in this matter same with other matters like reconverting europe since i heard you can be put in prison by the EU to say "christ is the light"

Unlikely. The EU has no power to sentance people to prison. The individual EU nations do that. And no EU nation takes an Atheist stand on religion. The closest they come to persecuting people who espouse a religion is that many EU countries prohibit some radical Muslim clerics from prostheletizing in their nation. Most EU governments are very, very secular, but they won't lock you up for saying "Christ is the Light."

And "reconverting" Europe? May I be the first to say - WTF?

And "reconverting" Europe? May I be the first to say - WTF?

there are parts of Europe that are essentially pagan and from a Church perspective missionary tactics that are used in uncivilized corners of the earth are called for in Europe

there are parts of Europe that are essentially pagan and from a Church perspective missionary tactics that are used in uncivilized corners of the earth are called for in Europe

Which countries?

How can christianity help stem the spread of aids when the catholic church is against condoms? Or many forms of sexual education (absitence doesn't cut it)?

Look at eastern europe and the west is losing numbers aswell

there are parts of Europe that are essentially pagan and from a Church perspective missionary tactics that are used in uncivilized corners of the earth are called for in Europe

I know some older and neo-religions are indeed on the rise in Europe - Wicca, Nature Cults, Druidism... but nowhere do they consist of anywhere near a majority. I can't name one place in Europe that majority pagan.

That is of course unless use pagan to mean non-Christian, and then yes, there are muslims and Buddhists aplenty in Europe.

I still can't really see a point in missionizing Europe. Or anywhere else. But that's just my humble opinion.

Oh.. someone mentioned Uganda:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4511418&sourceCode=RSS

"Morning Edition, February 24, 2005 · New data suggests the decline in HIV prevalence in Uganda is due to condoms -- and one other factor. The number of people dying of AIDS just about equals the number getting infected with HIV. The country is often held up as a model of AIDS prevention. "

Not abstience.

Oh.. someone mentioned Uganda:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4511418&sourceCode=RSS

"Morning Edition, February 24, 2005 · New data suggests the decline in HIV prevalence in Uganda is due to condoms -- and one other factor. The number of people dying of AIDS just about equals the number getting infected with HIV. The country is often held up as a model of AIDS prevention. "

Not abstience.
But NPR is a TOOL of the LIBERAL media.


:rolleyes:

Which countries?

France, there are more muslims than Catholic in paris

How can christianity help stem the spread of aids when the catholic church is against condoms? Or many forms of sexual education (absitence doesn't cut it)?

why dosn't abstinence cut it? I've pretty sure that would end the spread of AIDS

why dosn't abstinence cut it? I've pretty sure that would end the spread of AIDS
The same reason why abstinence pledges don't work for the majority of teens, I'd bet...

"Morning Edition, February 24, 2005 · New data suggests the decline in HIV prevalence in Uganda is due to condoms -- and one other factor. The number of people dying of AIDS just about equals the number getting infected with HIV. The country is often held up as a model of AIDS prevention. "

Not abstience.

well why in all creation wouldn't that hold true for the other countries in Africa?

Oh.. someone mentioned Uganda:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4511418&sourceCode=RSS

"Morning Edition, February 24, 2005 · New data suggests the decline in HIV prevalence in Uganda is due to condoms -- and one other factor. The number of people dying of AIDS just about equals the number getting infected with HIV. The country is often held up as a model of AIDS prevention. "

Not abstience.

Yea I could have sworn the facts supported the idea that condoms do indeed work.

Condoms aren't the Space Shuttle(bad joke), they're proven technology that in some form have been around and working for thousands of years. They WILL cut pregnancy, STDS and AIDS when used properly.

The same reason why abstinence pledges don't work for the majority of teens, I'd bet...

lets think about this for a minute; the Catholic Church teaches in no uncertian terms that if you have sex outside of marriage you are going to hell. so if you're willing to break on the highest laws in the Church and go to hell why wouldn't you buy a condom? its not like some john is sitting out in mali saying "hmmm....this condom is a sin, I'm going to hell for haveing sex outside marriage but this condom is a sin"

lets think about this for a minute; the Catholic Church teaches in no uncertian terms that if you have sex outside of marriage you are going to hell. so if you're willing to break on the highest laws in the Church and go to hell why wouldn't you buy a condom? its not like some john is sitting out in mali saying "hmmm....this condom is a sin, I'm going to hell for haveing sex outside marriage but this condom is a sin"
No, it doesn't. The catholic church teaches that it is a sin, and the grace of god and Jesus can forgive all sins. Only the non-belief in god is the one sin that can not be forgiven, by definition. Even murder can be forgiven by god.

Yea I could have sworn the facts supported the idea that condoms do indeed work. they're proven technology that in some form have been around and working for thousands of years. They WILL cut pregnancy, STDS and AIDS when used properly.

and fidelity won't?

Yea I could have sworn the facts supported the idea that condoms do indeed work.

Condoms aren't the Space Shuttle(bad joke), they're proven technology that in some form have been around and working for thousands of years. They WILL cut pregnancy, STDS and AIDS when used properly.

Condoms are 100% effective if they are employed properly. So that's definitely the case. This guy seems to think that isn't true. The fact is in other countries in Africa, there aren't enough condoms, let alone staff to train people how to use them.

and fidelity won't?
Even if a wife is perfectly faithful, her unfaithful husband could condemn her to death. What rule is there saying that a wife can't demand that her husband use a condom?

France, there are more muslims than Catholic in paris



why dosn't abstinence cut it? I've pretty sure that would end the spread of AIDS

France? I don't agree with the french government.. but who cares if there are more muslims then catholic in paris? Why should you care?

Abstinence doesn't work.

No, it doesn't. The catholic church teaches that it is a sin, and the grace of god and Jesus can forgive all sins. Only the non-belief in god is the one sin that can not be forgiven, by definition. Even murder can be forgiven by god.

well, yeah and the same logic still applies - why would some john be willing to damn himself to hell for sex outside marriage and yet not spring for a condom? thats like an axe murderer who makes sure to wipe his feet so he dosn't track mud into your home before he murders your whole family

Even if a wife is perfectly faithful, her unfaithful husband could condemn her to death. What rule is there saying that a wife can't demand that her husband use a condom?

chief, I said fidelity, the situation you described is not it

and fidelity won't?

What if the society doesn't believe in abstience? Or fidelity? Not everyone agrees with Christians when it comes to sex.

And no, even pure fidelity will not prevent AIDS like condoms will. After all you could be married to an HIV positive person...

well, yeah and the same logic still applies - why would some john be willing to damn himself to hell for sex outside marriage and yet not spring for a condom? thats like an axe murderer who makes sure to wipe his feet so he dosn't track mud into your home before he murders your whole family
Because he isn't damning himself to hell, he's being weak. God created us, he knows that we will sin. I know some perfect christians who, otherwise, have sex outside of marriage. It doesn't make them any less christian, or any less of a person. They'll most likely be married some day. More to the point, it isn't in my place to judge. That is the Lord's domain, not mine, and as far as I understand the Bible, the Lord's grace is enough to forgive all sins, acknowledging that the human soul is not perfect and prone to flaws.

but who cares if there are more muslims then catholic in paris?

well, the Catholic Church for one

Why should you care?

because I believe in Jesus Christ will all my heart, why would anyone want to keep such a wonderful thing to themself?

Abstinence doesn't work.

really, so how many people contracted STDs or AIDS while being abstient?

chief, I said fidelity, the situation you described is not it
The wife is being perfectly faithful.

because I believe in Jesus Christ will all my heart, why would anyone want to keep such a wonderful thing to themself?

Keep it to yourself. I'm atheist and I don't want you cramming your views down my throat.



really, so how many people contracted STDs or AIDS while being abstient?

People don't stop having sex. That simple.

I know some perfect christians who, otherwise, have sex outside of marriage. It doesn't make them any less christian,

actually, it does. and they should know that

it isn't in my place to judge. That is the Lord's domain, not mine,

and the Lord has made his will pretty damn clear on this one

and as far as I understand the Bible, the Lord's grace is enough to forgive all sins, acknowledging that the human soul is not perfect and prone to flaws.

and yet, you have to be sorry - the people you described clearly are not - and more to the point, how many of those people, when commiting a mortal sin have said "oh, going to hell is fine with me but we'd better not use a condom because thats a sin"

Keep it to yourself. I'm atheist and I don't want you cramming your views down my throat.

what makes you think thats my intention? be open minded

People don't stop having sex. That simple.

again, open your mind - I can introduce you to people who have never had sex their entire lives and show you people who have died with out ever having sex

I think you can keep it in your pants for a few years

actually, it does. and they should know thatand the Lord has made his will pretty damn clear on this one and yet, you have to be sorry - the people you described clearly are not - and more to the point, how many of those people, when commiting a mortal sin have said "oh, going to hell is fine with me but we'd better not use a condom because thats a sin"
There is no such thing as a 'mortal sin'. God forgives all. We are all human, we all are weak, god understands this, he created us.



(god I'm going to hell for this thread :rolleyes: )

The wife is being perfectly faithful.

and the Catholic Church only teaches fiedelity to men?

again, open your mind - I can introduce you to people who have never had sex their entire lives and show you people who have died with out ever having sex

One in a few people.. you need to open your mind.. very few people don't have sex.

I'm not a virgin myself. I have always used condoms.

and the Catholic Church only teaches fiedelity to men?
Couldn't tell you what the hell the catholic church does. The point is, the perfectly faithful wife is given a death sentance by an unfaithful husband because she couldn't use a condom. Is that what God, or Jesus would want?

There is no such thing as a 'mortal sin'. God forgives all. We are all human, we all are weak, god understands this, he created us.



a common missconception - God does know we are weak and He allows us to repent - how ever should you never repent.......

One in a few people.. you need to open your mind.. very few people don't have sex.

chief, you said people - you said people lack the self control needed to live life with out sex when infact its totally possible and only prevented by human lazyness

a common missconception - God does know we are weak and He allows us to repent - how ever should you never repent.......
Nonsense. Why would god create a flawed creation if he didn't expect us to fail? The test is to see if you acknowledge your failings, and repent.

chief, you said people - you said people lack the self control needed to live life with out sex when infact its totally possible and only prevented by human lazyness

I think people have a right to have access to condoms.. not having sex is not an option. First off it is far easier to just hand out condoms and this will curb the spread of HIV (and it has in Uganda).

Couldn't tell you what the hell the catholic church does.

shocking

The point is, the perfectly faithful wife is given a death sentance by an unfaithful husband because she couldn't use a condom. Is that what God, or Jesus would want?

no, and this is why Jesus left a group to mediate such dilemas and find moral solutions

no, and this is why Jesus left a group to mediate such dilemas and find moral solutions
So then you support condom use in Africa then?

not having sex is not an option.

really? reeaaaally? why not? why isn't that an option? why are there people who live in both are communities who havn't had sex in their entire lives and never will? why havn't they exploded yet?

and this will curb the spread of HIV (and it has in Uganda).

SHOW ME THE DATA!!!

So then you support condom use in Africa then?

hell no

hell no
So what to do in the case of the faithful wife and the unfaithful husband?

Anyway, AIDS is nowhere near the bubonic plague

In some nations in sub-saharan Africa, the percentage of people with AIDS is nearly 40%. I'd say that's damn well near the bubonic plague. But what do I know, I'm just a silly objectivist(besides the truth)

really? reeaaaally? why not? why isn't that an option? why are there people who live in both are communities who havn't had sex in their entire lives and never will? why havn't they exploded yet?


Strawmans... considered a logical fallacy..


SHOW ME THE DATA!!!

Bam

http://www.dental.am/more.php?id=D11130_0_1_0_M

The declining prevalence of HIV infection in Uganda has often been attributed to increased rates of abstinence and monogamy, but new data suggest that the decline is primarily the result of increased condom use -- as well the effect of people dying from AIDS.

So what to do in the case of the faithful wife and the unfaithful husband?

ask your Bishop

ask your Bishop
I'm asking you.

I'm asking you.

I'd be interested in an answer form him as well. Besides, I don't know who the hell my Bishop is, and the Pope stopped returning my calls.

Strawmans... considered a logical fallacy..

how is that in anyway a logical fallacy? you say going with out sex outside marriage is imposible and I give you examples of people who have lived their entire lives with out ever having sex. ever.

The declining prevalence of HIV infection in Uganda has often been attributed to increased rates of abstinence and monogamy, but new data suggest that the decline is primarily the result of increased condom use -- as well the effect of people dying from AIDS.

#1 - mortality is nothing unexpected - of course people with AIDS are going to die, what is significant and different is a lower rate of transmition

#2 - why does everyone else including the America and Ugandan government say different?

I'm asking you.

ask me wether or a not a bridge can hold 4 tons - I'm not an expert, I havn't studied theology, the Bible or the Catechism - I'm not qualified to answer that question

how is that in anyway a logical fallacy? you say going with out sex outside marriage is imposible and I give you examples of people who have lived their entire lives with out ever having sex. ever.



#1 - mortality is nothing unexpected - of course people with AIDS are going to die, what is significant and different is a lower rate of transmition

#2 - why does everyone else including the America and Ugandan government say different?
Hasty Generalization
Definition:

The size of the sample is too small to support the conclusion.

Examples:

(i) Fred, the Australian, stole my wallet. Thus, all Australians
are thieves. (Of course, we shouldn't judge all Australians on
the basis of one example.)
(ii) I asked six of my friends what they thought of the new
spending restraints and they agreed it is a good idea. The
new restraints are therefore generally popular.

Proof:

Identify the size of the sample and the size of the population,
then show that the sample size is too small. Note: a formal
proof would require a mathematical calculation. This is the
subject of probability theory. For now, you must rely on
common sense.

#1 - mortality is nothing unexpected - of course people with AIDS are going to die, what is significant and different is a lower rate of transmition

#2 - why does everyone else including the America and Ugandan government say different?

These are actual figures from Uganda. The governments often don't tell the truth in this matter for their own agenda. It is actually condoms in Uganda that lowered HIV transmission.

Again I don't care about your position on morality or sex before marriage. Means nothing to me. People going without sex their entire lives? They must be pretty miserable.

ask me wether or a not a bridge can hold 4 tons - I'm not an expert, I havn't studied theology, the Bible or the Catechism - I'm not qualified to answer that question
You seem to be qualified enough to do what only God can and condemn millions of people to hell. Surely you can give a responce here?

These are actual figures from Uganda. It is actually condoms in Uganda that lowered HIV transmission.

these are figures for a single study in Uganda, figures every other study and report say are untrue

People going without sex their entire lives? They must be pretty miserable.

oh you liberals and your open minds and your acceptance

oh you liberals and your open minds and your acceptance
Mesa isn't a liberal.


Oh, and why is delaware hell? I like it here.

You seem to be qualified enough to do what only God can and condemn millions of people to hell. Surely you can give a responce here?

I condemned millions of people to hell? really? thats what I did?

so I suppose if I tell you that kidnapping is illegal I've sentenced you to prison too? I merly recited the laws God laid down

these are figures for a single study in Uganda, figures every other study and report say are untrue

This happens to be the most recent report.





oh you liberals and your open minds and your acceptance

I'm libertarian.

I condemned millions of people to hell? really? thats what I did?

so I suppose if I tell you that kidnapping is illegal I've sentenced you to prison too? I merly recited the laws God laid down
Last time I checked only God can decide what exactly He means and what exact punishment He decides to give. You're making the assumption that no sin can be forgiven by God, which is a rather massive assumption.

Oh, and why is delaware hell? I like it here.

it was a band thing, but along those lines - hear about SB-80?

Last time I checked only God can decide what exactly He means and what exact punishment He decides to give.

and only a judge can send a person to jail but I'm sure that at least once in your life you've told some one that something was illegal

You're making the assumption that no sin can be forgiven by God, which is a rather massive assumption.

when did I ever say that?

it was a band thing, but along those lines - hear about SB-80?
The stem cell bill?

and only a judge can send a person to jail but I'm sure that at least once in your life you've told some one that something was illegal

Except judges are required to follow the law. Not only are you claiming that God MUST follow his own words (he doesn't), you're also claiming that you know exactly what He ment. As we've seen in this thread, it appears that we differ over the interpretation of His words, especially relating to his ability to forgive sin. You assume that he sentances anyone who commits sin to hell, while I believe that God, in his infinite mercy, would do nothing of the sort. That is fine. However, you are making the assumption that the above is true, and that assumption is one generally not made in a court of law, where the definition and the way that the law will be carried out is not in dispute. You have, through your words, aligned yourself with the view that millions of people will be condemned to hell by God.


when did I ever say that?
See above.

let think folks - botswana has been blanketed in condoms and their AIDS rate is something like 30% and climbing - Uganda has programs that teach abstinence and encourage fidelity; their AIDS rate dropped from 9% to 4% and is still falling

condoms do work, most of the time, enough times and you'll hit a hitch
Care to backup these statistics? There was a statistic on the spread of aids in the world in our newspaper and I remember the numbers to be higher (and we're talking about the rate of new infections here, aren't we?).

lets think about this for a minute; the Catholic Church teaches in no uncertian terms that if you have sex outside of marriage you are going to hell. so if you're willing to break on the highest laws in the Church and go to hell why wouldn't you buy a condom?
You're not a catholic, are you? Ever heard of repenting, purgatory, ...? According to the current teachings of the catholic church, hell should actually be pretty empty.

Problem: About half the population of Africa have probably never seen a condom and wouldn't know what its for (most cant read either).

There'd have to be a group of people willing to go around "teaching" millions of people

I don't think there's any one thing Christians should do for AIDS victims, here or overseas.

Christians are called to love others as they love themselves, and that can manifest in as many ways as there are individual people. Only God can really judge another man's efforts to sow love.

Until then, it can't hurt to make eachother aware of effective measures of easing suffering. For those that don't find condoms morally objectionable, funding their distribution might be a good thing to do. For those that do, there are infinite other options, from funding sex education to joining the Peace Corps.

I'm not an expert, I havn't studied theology, the Bible or the Catechism - I'm not qualified to answer that question
So by your own admission you haven't studied the bible or the catechism and yet you claim to know what is sinful and what not, what condems someone to hell and what not? So where did you get that knowledge from? Divine inspiration or from a telly preacher?

And just to make something clear, most of the regulations of the catholic church on sexual morals, including the prohibition of condoms and other contraceptives (and , incidently, the celebacy of priests issue), are just that, regulations. They are not axiomatic religious teachings as such, they are not even covered by the infallabillity clause and could in theory be changed at any time.

Additionally, never forget about one of the reasons for the hard stance on contraceptives: it's all about the numbers. The more children are born to catholic parents, the bigger, more influential and important the catholic church becomes.

In case anyone gets the wrong impression, I'm a (critical) RC myself.

I don't think there's any one thing Christians should do for AIDS victims, here or overseas.

Christians are called to love others as they love themselves, and that can manifest in as many ways as there are individual people. Only God can really judge another man's efforts to sow love.

Until then, it can't hurt to make eachother aware of effective measures of easing suffering. For those that don't find condoms morally objectionable, funding their distribution might be a good thing to do. For those that do, there are infinite other options, from funding sex education to joining the Peace Corps.
Thank you for that well balanced view!