NationStates Jolt Archive

Eleven million. That is the 'official' number of victims in the Holocaust of the 30's and 40's. Eleven million people exterminated during Hitlers rampage. Six million of them were Jews. Entire sections of my family tree end abruptly and my grandparents still talk about the Uncles and Cousins that they'll never see again. But, and this is rather large 'but', six does not equal eleven.

Hitler was on a genocidal spree, and his eyes were not solely on the Jews. Five million handicapped (Both mentally and physically), homosexuals, Gypsies, political dissidents, and citizens of subjugated countires were also led into the gas chambers, worked to death, or simply executed with a bullet. Everybody who didn't fit Hitlers view of Aryan perfection would have eventually ended up the same way if he hadn't been stopped, and entire sections of Europe and Africa were already well on their way. But you never hear about it.

The plight of the Jews during WWII is thrust into the faces of society on a nearly daily basis, and I'm not saying that it doesn't deserve the focus, but the fact is that others were also oppressed and that little tidbit never makes it into the news.

Tell me, when's the last time you heard about reparations being made to the families of gays killed? How many memorials are there celebrating the handicapped individuals that Hitler had put to death? How many Poles and Czechs received as many apologies as the Jews have?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that we should suddenly completely forget what happened to the Jews, nor am I saying that everybody else hasn't received a single damn thing, but I do feel that it's all tilted to much in one direction. Almost half of the Holocaust victimes were non-Jewish, and they receive like 1/10 of the attention (if even that much). I feel that it is our duty to remember what happened not just to the Jews, but to people all throughout Europe. We need to remember so that everybody can have justice served. We need to remember so that this never happens again. So that everybody is protected from monsters that will rear their heads in the future.

Oh, and this way I get quadruple the amount of sympathy. Yay for being Polish, Czechoslavakian and Lithuanian at the same time! (Sorry, but I thought it'd be better to end a light note since this has been such a serious post. A rarity for me.)

EDIT: And just to make this clea, I am Jewish. Relatives of mine were killed in the Holocaust and others fled to the USA to escape the horrors. I'm not speaking as somebody who feels I'm being wronged by the Jews getting all the attention, I'm speaking as a Jew who feels humanity as a whole (And the other victimized denominations) are being wronged by not adequately getting the whole story.

Tell me, when's the last time you heard about reparations being made to the families of gays killed? How many memorials are there celebrating the handicapped individuals that Hitler had put to death? How many Poles and Czechs received as many apologies as the Jews have?

http://www.glbtjews.org/article.php3?id_article=145
http://www.365gay.com/newscon05/01/012605holocaust.htm
http://www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/focus/disabilities_02/

I agree with you. Yes, a lot of people suffered and died, and a large number were Jews, but as you said, a large number were of other minority groups, which are often over looked. That's a fact that often bothers me to no end.

That's why whenever I talk about the Holocaust, I say "Jews, gays, gypsys, homosexuals and other minorities," instead of just "Jews." It's a disappointment that history these days don't really stress that fact, but Jews were indeed still the majority of those killed. Not to mention the total death toll during WWII was around 40 million, about half of which were Russians!

http://www.glbtjews.org/article.php3?id_article=145
http://www.365gay.com/newscon05/01/012605holocaust.htm

Huh. I did not see that coming.

Seconded. I, too, get frustrated when huge numbers of Holocaust victims are ignored. That in no way whatsoever lessens the horror of what happened to the Jews, but it'd be nice if people could remember all the victims of the Nazis, not just the largest subset of them.

An acquaintance of mine's grandfather was killed in the Holocaust, and it frustrates the heck out of him that whenever he mentions this to anyone, they say, "Huh? Your grandfather was Jewish?" When he explains that, no, he was a Gypsy, he gets blank looks and, almost invariably, something to the effect of, "But the Holocaust was when Hitler killed the Jews..."

:(

Huh. I did not see that coming.

Victim games annoy me. Inaccurate victim games even more so.

In my Sunday School, the Holocaust death toll is always Six Million Jews. True, Gypsies, Handicaps, and Gays are mentioned, but almost as an after thought. No Checks, Poles, or other peoples conquered by Hitler are even acknowledged. I always kew six million Jews died, but never the total death toll of the Holocaust.

I always hear the stories of Jewish survivers, but none of the other groups. Its time more people acknowledged all the victims. This shouldn't mean that focus should be taken off Jews, but the other groups fate should be made known to.

It is also wrong that only the concentration camps get the attention.

During 1943/1944, areas such as Belarus and Ukraine lost a quarter of their populations, as part of a deliberate policy of depopulation. The USSR as a whole lost 20 million people, 14 million of whom were civilians. The majority however, died pretty mundane deaths in a forest or by the roadside, and today no-one cares.

Which is as it should be, perhaps. No sense revisiting that history. Just weird that the jews have made such a big deal of their bad time, as if it is in any way more special.

Oh yeah, the accepted WW2 death toll is 56 million, though that does not include those Chinese killed by the Japanese occupation 1933-1941. Which reaches the million mark also.

It's not our fault we have better PR.

Anyway, visit the Holocaust Museum. It doesn't just cover Jews.

It is also wrong that only the concentration camps get the attention.

During 1943/1944, areas such as Belarus and Ukraine lost a quarter of their populations, as part of a deliberate policy of depopulation. The USSR as a whole lost 20 million people, 14 million of whom were civilians. The majority however, died pretty mundane deaths in a forest or by the roadside, and today no-one cares.

http://gei.aerobatics.ws/ww2.html
http://english.people.com.cn/200505/08/eng20050508_183958.html
http://english.pravda.ru/politics/2001/05/08/4847.html

Which is as it should be, perhaps. No sense revisiting that history. Just weird that the jews have made such a big deal of their bad time, as if it is in any way more special.

It is for them, because it was theirs.

I was referring to the Holocaust Death Count, not the entire WWII death count. One does not necessarily infer the other, since soldiers killed in combat and people who died of natural causes (meaning starvation and disease and other such bad things that spread because of WWII) are not usually counted as Holocaust deaths.

I'm deeply sorry about the following off-topic comment, but:

6!=6x5x4x3x2x1=720
6!=/11

I'm deeply sorry about the following off-topic comment, but:
6!=6x5x4x3x2x1=720
6!=/11

I was going to say that, but realized the intent and decided not to; I also thought it was 6E11.

Anyway, visit the Holocaust Museum. It doesn't just cover Jews.

I've already linked to its section on the disabled, and also to news stories that mention its gay oriented display that was on tour some time ago. But, let them wallow in their victim game, and thinly veiled anti-semitism under the guise of wishes for "inclusiveness".

Edit: Disregard what I just said. I'm growing increasingly annoyed at this thread. I've posted refuting links and will be off before I can no longer bite my tongue.

I'm deeply sorry about the following off-topic comment, but:

6!=6x5x4x3x2x1=720
6!=/11
lol, "!=" in C++ (and many other languages) means =/= or not equal to. Unless you know that and you're just being an ass anyway! :D I think, or am I just confusing myself? :confused: :eek:

Just weird that the jews have made such a big deal of their bad time, as if it is in any way more special.

The reason Jews make such a big deal over our bad time is the Holocaust was a big thing. While not as many Jews died as Russians, 6 Million is a huge number. If Jews did not make a big deal, the chances of people forgetting what happened are much larger and so are the chances of it happening again.

The genocide in the Sudan is being mostly ignored by the world at large... it seems the Holocaust is just repeating itself. Maybe Jews need to make an even bigger deal over the Holocaust...

The genocide in the Sudan is being mostly ignored by the world at large... it seems the Holocaust is just repeating itself. Maybe Jews need to make an even bigger deal over the Holocaust...
Well, Coke advertising doesn't make me think of Pepsi, if you see what I'm getting at, so please no.

Fass, I've seen your links (and even followed one of them), but my point still stands.

As I said in the first post, I'm not saying that nobody (anywhere) has ever made any attempt to remember the other victims, merely that the amount of focus is to little to accurately depict just how many others were killed.

You also have to remember that 6 million is a huge number of people killed as a percentage of the total population; even today there are only 13 million Jews, and 6 million is 46% of their population. That would be like 493 million Catholics or 543 million Muslims totally eradicated.

lol, "!=" in C++ (and many other languages) means =/= or not equal to. Unless you know that and you're just being an ass anyway! :D I think, or am I just confusing myself? :confused: :eek:

The "!" I used is the one used in probability, I forgot how your pronounce it.

I forgot how your pronounce it.

"Not"?

Anyway, visit the Holocaust Museum. It doesn't just cover Jews.

The Holocaust Museum in Washington has one section of a room dedicated to the non jews... it has a couple pictures, a few stories and I think some memorabilia. That is it. One corner of one room

Can't argue with the math.

100 million! = 40 million! = 11 million!
The Holocaust was child's play compared to Stalin's purges or Mao's 'Great Leap Forward'

I've already linked to its section on the disabled, and also to news stories that mention its gay oriented display that was on tour some time ago. But, let them wallow in their victim game, and thinly veiled anti-semitism under the guise of wishes for "inclusiveness".

Edit: Disregard what I just said. I'm growing increasingly annoyed at this thread. I've posted refuting links and will be off before I can no longer bite my tongue.

Even with your edit, you're still not really being fair. No one has argued that non-Jewish victims have been completely ignored, and there has been no suggestion that attention to the atrocities against Jews be lessened. It most certainly should not be. But it is undeniably sad that many people are underinformed about other victims of the Holocaust, to the point where they honestly don't realize that any non-Jews were killed. If saying that makes me anti-semitic, then (a) the rabbi I worked with for months when I was considering conversion to Judaism will be greatly surprised, (b) the Holocaust survivors at the Jewish retirement home I've volunteered at many times will be greatly surprised, (c) the Jewish guy I nearly married would be very surprised, especially since we were planning on raising our kids Jewish, and (d) you have a very odd definition of anti-semitism.

It's not a victim game or a competition. It's simply about educating people.

A lot depends on what kind of lesson you want to draw from the Holocaust. To many people it shows the evils of racism and ultra-nationalism and the human capacity for cruelty in general. From this point of view, there is no problem in commemorating all the Nazi's victims. Unfortunately, some Jewish groups prefer to see the Holocaust just as a badge of Jewish victimhood. To them it is proof that the outside world (all of it) is out to get the Jews. Admitting that other people died as well would confuse this simple us-and-them worldview so the other Holocaust victims tend to get swept under the carpet.

I agree with you. Yes, a lot of people suffered and died, and a large number were Jews, but as you said, a large number were of other minority groups, which are often over looked. That's a fact that often bothers me to no end.

Well, Jews are a cultural force in the US and they do a lot to preserve the memory of it. Never forget is a Jewish saying. Shoah is a Jewish holiday dedicated entierly to remembering the Holocaust.

I'm not being anti semetic by saying that we don't have a large and vocal Gypsy population, and we aren't exactly sympathetic towards the plight of Communists. Perhaps the Commies would have gained greater acceptance after WWII if they played up the "Hitler killed our people" angle. We do have a large and vocal gay population, but they seem to have gotten a lot of milage out of Stonewall, so revisionist bullshit like The Pink Swastika never really got very far. Perhaps if communists, Jehovah's witnesses, labor leaders, Gypsys, and liberals all declared an annual day of rememberance for the holocaust then we'd all keep in mind that it was not 6 million people, but almost twice that, that died in the camps.

[Edit] What was I thinking. Jehovah's Witnesses don't have holidays.

Hitler was more adamant about purging the Jews, as they were the bigger threat to his 'empire'.

The Nazi Holocaust was focused on killing off everyone who wasn't a picture perfect Aryan, but wasn't the main agenda the purging of the Jews? I believe the killing of the Soviets and the Poles were more of a 'oh, they're bad too, shoot them' whereas the Jews were a 'Jew! They must be killed!'

Slight difference, but it is rather weighty.


Another argument is that the Judaism is a religion. It isn't valid, though, seeing as how Hitler went around calling all Jews an entire race.