NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm not interested in the religion as a whole (as in all the details), but having lived in a society where Christian mythology (my word, sorry, not meant to be offensive) permeates much of our entertainment and daily life, I have a few questions I'd really appreciate answered:). Brief, summarising explanations would serve best rather than exhaustive historical and biblical references. And thank you very much if you take the time to help me on this!

1) All the people who lived and died before Christ walked the Earth...did they automatically go to hell? Even if they were good people? Even if they would have accepted Christ if they knew it was a possibility? It's something I've always wondered.

2) I remember reading about the levels of various heavenly beings, cherubim and so on...do those categories still exist anyway as part of the Christian belief system? How about demonic creatures? If they are no longer part of the regular beliefs, when were they phased out and why?

3) What is hell really supposed to be like? (what have you been taught it is?)

4) What is heaven really supposed to be like? (ditto)

5) Is there still a belief in Purgatory? What is that supposed to be? And are there any other levels between heaven and hell? Is that a sect-specific thing?

6) On the topic of heaven and hell...where are they? Like...would they be in different dimensions? Or out in space? What are the ideas on that? And do you ever get out of them and just...die? I mean...is there no recycling of souls or anything? And if hell has way more souls...is there some sort of imbalance?

7) I almost forgot my biggest question. Do Christians still believe in the Devil? Some details on that would be most appreciated!

*snipage*
Good questions, best answer I can give you (unless you're looking for my own personal beliefs) is that it seriously depends upon the church of the individual. Most of your questions are directed more towards Catholics rather than Prodestants however.

Answer to #1

As Christians believe, no. As of what happened to them, no real answers are given.

Jewish faith teaches that they all are buried awaiting the end of days to be resurrected to the earth. (AKA I wouldn't have them cremate you). Pretty much, it would be like the zombie movies, without the zombies. So taking this symbolically, again as Christians, the dead were awaiting Jesus's salvation. In aspect, I guess a few thousands years isn't anything compared to forever. ;)

Hope I helped, maybe later I''ll answer others.

Good questions, best answer I can give you (unless you're looking for my own personal beliefs) is that it seriously depends upon the church of the individual. Most of your questions are directed more towards Catholics rather than Prodestants however.
Well that's what kind of confused me. The Catholic beliefs (though I'm really not up on current beliefs, just stereotypes) seem more...I don't know...interesting I guess. Now it could be that they just like using vivid images, but I suspect that a lot of movies borrow more from the Catholic tradition in order to create a story with more oomph...but these seem like pretty major things...do they really vary that much?

Please answer these questions from the perspective of what YOU were taught. I'm interested as well in the variations!

Sidenote to #2

This topic was very medival. Read John Milton's Paradise Lost if you haven't. Much visual interpretation of heaven and hell has come from it. The levels of angels are mentioned a couple of times in the bible, though not having on hand I cannot find them at the moment. Ironically enough, the angels which many know as the Archangels (Gabriel, Micheal, Rapheal . . .), are not technically archangels, but Seraphim (Highest), whereas archangels are second to lowest. These type topics typically come up only in historical aspects of the Church and I believe only was Catholic.

1) All the people who lived and died before Christ walked the Earth...did they automatically go to hell? Even if they were good people? Even if they would have accepted Christ if they knew it was a possibility? It's something I've always wondered.Depends on whom you ask. Nowadays, you can only be damned if you were capable of hearing the Gospel. Back in the colonial era, the Spanish Prince (a liberal for the time) found slavery appalling, but accepted it as the only way to bring Christianity to them.

2) I remember reading about the levels of various heavenly beings, cherubim and so on...do those categories still exist anyway as part of the Christian belief system? How about demonic creatures? If they are no longer part of the regular beliefs, when were they phased out and why?I have little knowledge of the demons, except that I think there are about 120,000 fallen angels... There still are Cherubim and Seraphim. There's a "ranking" system of angels, Angels being lowest, Archangels after that, etc...

That's all I can really talk about, since, as my poll showed, I'm not a Christian. I've only been interested in some of the "mythology" for personal reasons ;)

Where's Neo R when you finally want to talk to her?

That's all I can really talk about, since, as my poll showed, I'm not a Christian. I've only been interested in some of the "mythology" for personal reasons ;)

I just hope these reasons are for productive things and not trying to annihilate people's faith.

Where's Neo R when you finally want to talk to her?

I can help you with any of these, at least within the Catholic doctrine, whereas most only applies for these questions.

I just hope these reasons are for productive things and not trying to annihilate people's faith.
How can you do that? Faith is faith. And as long as someone doesn't use their faith to oppress others, who cares what they believe?

Got anymore answers for me...this is interesting!

I just hope these reasons are for productive things and not trying to annihilate people's faith.It was for creative reasons. Some kids have those apocalyptic phases and get attracted to all sorts of world ending things like Ragnarök or similar things. I decided to read Revelations and do some research on the war between the angels... :D

A quick answer to the general theme of these questions is that the Church has been slowly moving away from the physical concepts of these ideas, and applying metaphysical aspects to them all.
i.e. Hell is absence of God's loving presence
Heaven is obtaining God's complete love and presence

It was for creative reasons. Some kids have those apocalyptic phases and get attracted to all sorts of world ending things like Ragnarök or similar things. I decided to read Revelations and do some research on the war between the angels... :D

So you've read Paradise Lost, I presume

How can you do that? Faith is faith. And as long as someone doesn't use their faith to oppress others, who cares what they believe?

Got anymore answers for me...this is interesting!I got my answers from e-sword. It's an electronic bible file with a search function. I haven't got one on this computer though...

I'm not interested in the religion as a whole (as in all the details), but having lived in a society where Christian mythology (my word, sorry, not meant to be offensive) permeates much of our entertainment and daily life, I have a few questions I'd really appreciate answered:). Brief, summarising explanations would serve best rather than exhaustive historical and biblical references. And thank you very much if you take the time to help me on this!

1) All the people who lived and died before Christ walked the Earth...did they automatically go to hell? Even if they were good people? Even if they would have accepted Christ if they knew it was a possibility? It's something I've always wondered.

2) I remember reading about the levels of various heavenly beings, cherubim and so on...do those categories still exist anyway as part of the Christian belief system? How about demonic creatures? If they are no longer part of the regular beliefs, when were they phased out and why?

3) What is hell really supposed to be like? (what have you been taught it is?)

4) What is heaven really supposed to be like? (ditto)

5) Is there still a belief in Purgatory? What is that supposed to be? And are there any other levels between heaven and hell? Is that a sect-specific thing?

6) On the topic of heaven and hell...where are they? Like...would they be in different dimensions? Or out in space? What are the ideas on that? And do you ever get out of them and just...die? I mean...is there no recycling of souls or anything? And if hell has way more souls...is there some sort of imbalance?

7) I almost forgot my biggest question. Do Christians still believe in the Devil? Some details on that would be most appreciated!


I think you mixed believe with superstition a lot here. And one problem when answering oyur questions is that not all Christians will agree with the answers one way or another, as none of those aspects is pointed out crystal clear anywhere in the bible. But I'll give it a try :

1) Different opinions on that one. Very traditional Christians will tell you that yes, all these people went and go to hell. Others will tell you that no, if they lived a good life, they'll go to heaven. Dante Alighieri cam up with the idea of different levels of hell, with the "good heathens" in limbo. Not in hell, but not in heaven either.

2) The choirs of angels are an idea that predates Christianity, they originated in Jewish believe. The demons and hellish creatures were superstitious inventions in the Middle Ages, although there are still exocisms being carried out by Catholic priests and other denomminations. They were phased out during the enlightenment and the ensueing rationality in combination with the discovery of scientific explanations for natural phenomena.

3) The traditional image is this hot burning place of torture, but I'm not aware that the bible describes hell in detail at any one point. So it's just interpretations, really.

4) Heaven is supposed to be a state of eternal bliss in the presence of god.

5) Yes, the believe still exists (at least in the Roman Catholic church). The idea of purgatory is that, as everybody is a sinner, everybody will go to hell. If you are a lesser sinner(no deadly sins), you won't stay in hell for eternity, but spend some time in purgatory as punishment before being allowed into heaven.

6) Generally, they are considered to be states of mind rather than physical places. They don't have any geographic location, the terms are to be understood in a spiritual sense.

7) Before I started posting here, I would have laughed at the question and told you that the idea of a devil with horns and a goatee is medieval and outdated, that only extremists and crazy fundamentalists believe in that. But there seem to be a large number of people here that do believe in such a thing as Satan or the devil...

Side note on Hell

The only true physical commentary made on 'hell' in the gospels was concerning the modern equililant to a 'burning trash heap' ouside of Jeruselem called Gehenna. (Which is ironically the name of my NS region).

I'm not a Christian, but I've enjoyed arguing with Christian friends and lived with a Jehova's Witness for a year; here's what I remember:

3) What is hell really supposed to be like? (what have you been taught it is?)
Not all brands of Christianity believe in Hell. The Church of England apparently wasn't sure about it for a bit (linky (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/699929.stm) ) and Jehova's Witnesses don't (you simply cease to exist if you've been naughty), whilst the Catholics are deeply in favour of it.

Revelations definitely uses the term "Lake of Fire" to describe it, but it's all very wordy and confusing.

7) I almost forgot my biggest question. Do Christians still believe in the Devil? Some details on that would be most appreciated!
Jehova's Witnesses do - I forget the details, but I think it was the devil who persuaded god to give humans free will.

Hope I've not been too inaccurate...

A quick answer to the general theme of these questions is that the Church has been slowly moving away from the physical concepts of these ideas, and applying metaphysical aspects to them all.
i.e. Hell is absence of God's loving presence
Heaven is obtaining God's complete love and presence
This makes more sense to me, and I suspect that the physical manifestations were used more as metaphors than real places...a way to make a complex concept more accessible by people with little education. But...has there been any recent thought on whether these places really do exist or not?

A lot of people think of Heaven (or Hell) as a kind of 'life after death'. Do you think it would cause trouble with people's faith if they felt that death was death, and there would be no sojourn in Heaven?

Though lets see if we all can come up with all the ranks of angels:
Seraphim
Cherubim
Thrones
Lightbearers(Check me on this one, the thrones may have been the lightbearers)

...

Archangels
Angels

This makes more sense to me, and I suspect that the physical manifestations were used more as metaphors than real places...a way to make a complex concept more accessible by people with little education. But...has there been any recent thought on whether these places really do exist or not?

A lot of people think of Heaven (or Hell) as a kind of 'life after death'. Do you think it would cause trouble with people's faith if they felt that death was death, and there would be no sojourn in Heaven?

Well, it's still taught of an afterlife. It just depends on whether you spend eternity with or without God.

And to your question, religion was developed for the sheer reason of discerning life after death.

Jehova's Witnesses do - I forget the details, but I think it was the devil who persuaded god to give humans free will.

Hope I've not been too inaccurate...
I've heard different takes on the Devil. In one, he is a fallen angel who wanted humans to have free will, but doesn't really push them one way or the other. In others, he is a being as powerful as God who tempts men to evil. Both make for good movie characters...but it seems a lot of people don't really believe in the concept of 'the Devil'.

Here's an interesting site about angels.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01476d.htm

If you're really interested in this, I'd suggest watching Dogma (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00003CWOL/qid=1123770521/sr=8-2/ref=pd_bbs_2/104-3671231-3148729?v=glance&s=dvd&n=507846) and The Prophecy (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/6305268819/qid=1123770582/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-3671231-3148729?v=glance&s=dvd) and reading Small Gods (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0061092177/qid=1123770653/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-3671231-3148729?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) and Faust (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/069103656X/qid=1123770686/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-3671231-3148729).
They've all got interesting perspectives on Christianity.

Well, it's still taught of an afterlife. It just depends on whether you spend eternity with or without God.

And to your question, religion was developed for the sheer reason of discerning life after death.
Clearly. So if you aren't in an actualy physical state somewhere after death, where are you in God's presence? Are there any theories on this at all (not nutjob theories, but ones more widely accepted)

here's the list

Seraphim
Cherubim
Thrones
Dominations
Virtues
Powers
Principalities
Archangels
Angels

Though lets see if we all can come up with all the ranks of angels:
Seraphim
Cherubim
Thrones
Dominations
Virtues
Powers
Principalities
Archangels
Angels

-According to the 1985 World Book Encyclopedia

Before I started posting here, I would have laughed at the question and told you that the idea of a devil with horns and a goatee is medieval and outdated
Wasn't that image of the devil a perversion of Pagan gods such as Pan?

Clearly. So if you aren't in an actualy physical state somewhere after death, where are you in God's presence? Are there any theories on this at all (not nutjob theories, but ones more widely accepted)

I don't quite follow. Modern Christianity does not teach a state of nothingness.

If you're really interested in this, I'd suggest watching:
I've seen Dogma, but none of the others. But I'm less interested in the Hollywood versions as to people's real faith. I get these conflicting questions from Hollywood portrayals, which is why I'd like to know what people really believe. But it seems that even Christians are divided on these issues. It's kind of frustration, because although there are major similarities between various churches, the differences are also great. And were I a Christian, these are all things I would need resolved before I could move on.

here's the list

Seraphim
Cherubim
Thrones
Dominations
Virtues
Powers
Principalities
Archangels
Angels
So is it just Catholics that believe in these divisions? Or angels at all?

Wasn't that image of the devil a perversion of Pagan gods such as Pan?

According to the OT, I believe they mention a pagan Palestinian god, Bhaal.
Yes,Bhaal, for all you Diablo II and Baldur's Gate II fans!

I don't quite follow. Modern Christianity does not teach a state of nothingness.
If not a state of nothingness...then what? If Heaven (and possibly Hell) are not real places...then what? I can't wrap my head around this.

If not a state of nothingness...then what? If Heaven (and possibly Hell) are not real places...then what? I can't wrap my head around this.

Ah, I understand what you mean now. Physically, we are nothing in the afterlife. Spiritually, and possibly mentally (no real Biblical references to this), we are with or without God.

Ah, I understand what you mean now. Physically, we are nothing in the afterlife. Spiritually, and possibly mentally (no real Biblical references to this), we are with or without God.
Ok...and if you are without God...are you still conscious? Can you still think? I guess the same question goes for those who are with God.

Ok...and if you are without God...are you still conscious? Can you still think? I guess the same question goes for those who are with God.

Is it wrong of me to always associate the idea of being closer to God with Stargate and Daniel Jacksons accension (sp?)

Is it wrong of me to always associate the idea of being closer to God with Stargate and Daniel Jacksons accension (sp?)
I don't know...does the visualisation matter?

Ok, one last message before bedtime. please note that this is mostly my own beliefs, Presybterianism, and some historical study.

1) All the people who lived and died before Christ walked the Earth...did they automatically go to hell? Even if they were good people? Even if they would have accepted Christ if they knew it was a possibility? It's something I've always wondered.
From what I was taught by my pastor, before Christ, if you kept God's laws (as handed down in the OT) you could be admited to Heaven. Other sects have virtuous non-believers not in heaven, but not in hell either, but I am not sure of the mechanisms for that. Mormons of course believe that if you are baptised, even after death, you will be admited to heaven, which has pissed off a number of other groups.

2) I remember reading about the levels of various heavenly beings, cherubim and so on...do those categories still exist anyway as part of the Christian belief system? How about demonic creatures? If they are no longer part of the regular beliefs, when were they phased out and why?
Catholics still (I THINK) believe in the angelic ranking systems, Prods more or less abandoned the whole notion after reformation as part of the idol worship of the Catholic Church (my pastor said, not my own beliefs). From my understanding though, this was part of the idea of secret knowledge contained in the Bible that gave someone an inside track or something.

3) What is hell really supposed to be like? (what have you been taught it is?)In the OT, compleate and total seperation from God for all time. In the NT, Jesus mentions the notion of flames and torment. Revelations of course has the burning lake and other fun stuff. My own belief is that the OT is more correct as there is no worse torment than to be seperated from God. My pastor told me that this would be like finding out that the sun would never again shine.

4) What is heaven really supposed to be like? (ditto)You are with God, and all pain and suffering is washed away, even the memories. You are in a place where you will be loved and cared for unconditionally for all time, never again to be hurt, lonely, or sad.

5) Is there still a belief in Purgatory? What is that supposed to be? And are there any other levels between heaven and hell? Is that a sect-specific thing? Catholic I think, at least I was never taught about any, though I did read the Divine Comedy, but that it hardly considered scripture.

6) On the topic of heaven and hell...where are they? Like...would they be in different dimensions? Or out in space? What are the ideas on that? And do you ever get out of them and just...die? I mean...is there no recycling of souls or anything? And if hell has way more souls...is there some sort of imbalance? Heaven and Hell are... outside I guess you'd say. Heaven is in God's presence, wherever He is, and Hell is the only plave without Him. And no, once you are there, that is it, because that will literally be IT.

In Christian belief by the way, you do NOT go to either Heaven or Hell when you die, instead you sleep till the day of the Second Coming when the dead will be resurected and judged by Jesus. Those who are worthy go to Heaven, those who are not are cast into the lake of fire, or hell.

7) I almost forgot my biggest question. Do Christians still believe in the Devil? Some details on that would be most appreciated![/QUOTE]I've run into a lot that do. I personally don't think of the Devil as evil personified, or someone who tempts me. I would view him more as Pluto, placed there to oversee Hell by God, but nothing more.

And Catholics seem more interesting is one of the reasons of the reformation, many felt that this focus on things other than God and Jesus was interfearing.

So is it just Catholics that believe in these divisions? Or angels at all?Winged creatures are featured in Islam too. I don't know if they're called Angels though.

Not all brands of Christianity believe in Hell. The Church of England apparently wasn't sure about it for a bit whilst the Catholics are deeply in favour of it.


AFAIR, hell in the sense of "eternal damnation" was abolished in the roman catholic faith. At least, the seven deadly sins are no longer deadly in the sense of leading to eternal damnation.

While I was looking for information on that I found a link to the catholic catechism and what it has to say about hell:
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a12.htm#IV

In Christian belief by the way, you do NOT go to either Heaven or Hell when you die, instead you sleep till the day of the Second Coming when the dead will be resurected and judged by Jesus. Those who are worthy go to Heaven, those who are not are cast into the lake of fire, or hell.

Wow...this is a big piece of information...so you don't die and just automatically go to Heaven or Hell? Is that why many Christians say 'they've gone to meet the Lord'....Jesus, rather than God I'm assuming? As in to wait with him?

What Pope John Paul II said about Hell:

VATICAN CITY, JUL 28 (ZENIT).- At his usual Wednesday morning general audience, which today was held in the Paul VI Audience Hall and attended by 8,000 people from different parts of the world, the Pope spoke about Hell as the final rejection of God

"God is an infinitely good and merciful Father," the Holy Father explained, "But, unfortunately, man, who is called to respond freely, can choose to reject God's love and forgiveness absolutely, and remove himself forever from joyful communion with Him."

"This is precisely the tragic situation described by Christian doctrine when referring to damnation or Hell. It is not a punishment from God inflicted from outside, but the result of positions taken by man already in this life," he clarified. "The same dimension of unhappiness that this dark condition entails can be understood to a degree in some of our terrible experiences, which turn life, as the saying goes, into a 'Hell.' "

"In the theological sense, Hell is something else: it is the final consequence of the very sin that turns back on the one who committed it. It is the situation in which the one who rejects the Father's mercy, even at the last moment of life, finally places himself. Redemption remains as an offer of salvation, which man should freely embrace. This is the reason why each one will be judged 'according to his works,' " continued the Holy Father.

"Moreover, the pictures of Hell given to us in Sacred Scripture must be correctly interpreted. They express the total frustration and emptiness of a life without God. More than a place, Hell is the state of the one who freely and finally removes himself from God, the source of life and joy," added the Pope

"Condemnation must not be attributed to God's initiative, because in his merciful love he cannot but will the salvation of the beings he has created. In reality, it is the creature who closes himself to his love," John Paul II explained. "Condemnation consists, precisely, in the final removal of oneself from God, freely chosen by man and confirmed by death, which seals the choice forever. God's sentence ratifies this state."

The Holy Father said that "the Christian faith teaches that the very risk of a 'yes' or 'no' characterizes the creature's liberty, and some have already said 'no.' They are those spiritual creatures who rebelled against God's love and are called demons. For us human beings, this experience of theirs is like a warning: it is a constant reminder to avoid the tragedy that is the outcome of sin, and to model our existence on Jesus, whose life unfolded as a yes to God. Condemnation remains a real possibility but, without special divine revelation, we have not been given the knowledge if there are human beings who are definitely affected and who they are."

John Paul II ended the catechesis saying: "Improper use of Biblical pictures must not create psychosis or anxiety; rather, it represents a necessary and saving admonition to liberty, within the announcement that the Resurrected Jesus has defeated Satan, giving us the Spirit of God, and allowing us to say, 'Abba, Father.' This point of view, which is full of hope, is dominant in the Christian message. It is effectively reflected in the Church's liturgical tradition, as can be seen in the words of the Roman Canon, for example: 'Father accept this offering from your whole family. Grant us your peace in this life, save us from final damnation, and count us among those you have chosen.' After greeting his fellow countrymen in Polish, John Paul II called for prayer so that no one would go to Hell.

More on that (e.g. Heaven, Purgatory ...) here:
http://www.stjo-milton.org/current/lastthings.htm

According to the OT, I believe they mention a pagan Palestinian god, Bhaal.
Yes,Bhaal, for all you Diablo II and Baldur's Gate II fans!
Just on an aside, Baal simply means "Lord of". When combined with other words, you get the full name. (Like Baal Zebul, the Lord of the Flies. The symbol of the city that worshipped him (Carthage, IIRC) was a fly.)

I've seen Dogma, but none of the others. But I'm less interested in the Hollywood versions as to people's real faith. I get these conflicting questions from Hollywood portrayals, which is why I'd like to know what people really believe. But it seems that even Christians are divided on these issues. It's kind of frustration, because although there are major similarities between various churches, the differences are also great. And were I a Christian, these are all things I would need resolved before I could move on.Well, the Prophecy concerns itself with the war between angels, though they add a book to the bible that states that the war isn't over yet. It basically changes your idea of those cute little Cherubs forever. Small Gods has some nice philosophical insights on religion and Christianity in parody form. Quite humorous. Faust deals with the devil as a part of Creation. His role is the tempter the one that may lead people off the correct path as described in the NT. The idea is based on the temptations of Christ. The story deals with a "bet" between God and the Devil. One of the big pieces of German literature by Goethe.

This whole Heaven and Hell thing are confusing. So they aren't widely accepted (I think?) as real physical places, but rather the absence of, or the presence of God. You would have to retain some sort of consciousness I would assume for this to have any impact on you, and yet all your sorrows, joys and memories are washed away while with God? That seems harsh to me. Would you keep these memories in "Hell" then?

(to be quite frank, I think that belief in a real Heaven or Hell would be more likely to get people to convert than this mess of...we're not quite sure...just a thought)

Wow...this is a big piece of information...so you don't die and just automatically go to Heaven or Hell? Is that why many Christians say 'they've gone to meet the Lord'....Jesus, rather than God I'm assuming? As in to wait with him?
Well, I should have said that was the orginal belief of the early Christians. Many now believe that you go straight to Heaven or Hell. However, I was told about the orginal idea and it seems to fit in better with the scriptures (My father died when I was quite young so I asked more than the normal amount of questions regarding death to my poor pastor).

From what I am told, you die, but death is like sleep, you will not know the passage of time, however long it would be, till the second coming when you would be resurected. Which is also why early Christians would not go for cremation as it was thought the body needed to be whole for resurection.

Faust deals with the devil as a part of Creation. His role is the tempter the one that may lead people off the correct path as described in the NT. The idea is based on the temptations of Christ. The story deals with a "bet" between God and the Devil. One of the big pieces of German literature by Goethe.
Yes, I've read Faust...I simply haven't seen the movie version (and wasn't sure it was even the same story). It's more exciting in my mind...and more, how can I say, tempting I guess, to become relgious if you feel that you will be protected from evil by your belief....the evil being tangible and all. For example, my husband's family are Catholics from Chile...but there is a lot of supersition in them (that I find myself aaaalmost believing, having seen some of this stuff myself), and they use things like salt water or a priest's blessing to ward off evil. They really believe in this stuff, and their belief is pretty influential in my mind, compared to this kind of (sorry!) wishy-washy version of Christianity.

This whole Heaven and Hell thing are confusing. So they aren't widely accepted (I think?) as real physical places, but rather the absence of, or the presence of God. You would have to retain some sort of consciousness I would assume for this to have any impact on you, and yet all your sorrows, joys and memories are washed away while with God? That seems harsh to me. Would you keep these memories in "Hell" then?

(to be quite frank, I think that belief in a real Heaven or Hell would be more likely to get people to convert than this mess of...we're not quite sure...just a thought)

Well a major problem with that is that by retaining physical form would reduce the significance of Christ ascending to be with the Father and, for Catholics, Mary being assumed into Heaven. For we are not them, thus we don't get the benefit of having physical form in Heaven. Weird, huh.

This whole Heaven and Hell thing are confusing. So they aren't widely accepted (I think?) as real physical places, but rather the absence of, or the presence of God. You would have to retain some sort of consciousness I would assume for this to have any impact on you, and yet all your sorrows, joys and memories are washed away while with God? That seems harsh to me. Would you keep these memories in "Hell" then?

(to be quite frank, I think that belief in a real Heaven or Hell would be more likely to get people to convert than this mess of...we're not quite sure...just a thought)Methinks you need to read Galileo (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0802130593/qid=1123772933/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-3671231-3148729?v=glance&s=books)... :D

Yes, I've read Faust...I simply haven't seen the movie version (and wasn't sure it was even the same story). I linked it to the book, not the dvd. The only proper Faust movies you should watch are bound to be theater adaptations.

They really believe in this stuff, and their belief is pretty influential in my mind, compared to this kind of (sorry!) wishy-washy version of Christianity.
Well, I'd say maybe you should go talk things over with your local priest if you're than curious. They would be a lot better informed than us morons. ;)

Honestly, I have always belived that Christ commanded us to worry about THIS life. To get to the Kingdom of Heaven, we need to obey His commandements and lead a good life, for the way is narrow and many will not make it.

I'll let Heaven and Hell take care of themselves, they seem to know what's going on after all. :D

1) All the people who lived and died before Christ walked the Earth...did they automatically go to hell? Even if they were good people? Even if they would have accepted Christ if they knew it was a possibility? It's something I've always wondered. No, they wouldn't. If Elijah can go to heaven so can any other good person

2) I remember reading about the levels of various heavenly beings, cherubim and so on...do those categories still exist anyway as part of the Christian belief system? How about demonic creatures? If they are no longer part of the regular beliefs, when were they phased out and why? What's more important? Knowing every member of te heavenly host or living your life in a proper christian manner. I know none of it and I'm happy that way.

3) What is hell really supposed to be like? (what have you been taught it is?) No specifics, I've never really wondered.

4) What is heaven really supposed to be like? (ditto) Enjoyable.

5) Is there still a belief in Purgatory? What is that supposed to be? And are there any other levels between heaven and hell? Is that a sect-specific thing? It's a Catholic thing i think, I have no truck with it myself.

6) On the topic of heaven and hell...where are they? Like...would they be in different dimensions? Or out in space? What are the ideas on that? And do you ever get out of them and just...die? I mean...is there no recycling of souls or anything? And if hell has way more souls...is there some sort of imbalance? Not the foggiest

7) I almost forgot my biggest question. Do Christians still believe in the Devil? Some details on that would be most appreciated! Generally I see it as more a personification of my 'dark side' but also an independent being who really wants to fuck with god, it's not the most coherent belief set really :)

Bolded.

I linked it to the book, not the dvd. The only proper Faust movies you should watch are bound to be theater adaptations.
Ah, sorry. I didn't actually clink the links *abashed*

Well, I'd say maybe you should go talk things over with your local priest if you're than curious. They would be a lot better informed than us morons. ;)

Honestly, I have always belived that Christ commanded us to worry about THIS life. To get to the Kingdom of Heaven, we need to obey His commandements and lead a good life, for the way is narrow and many will not make it.

I'll let Heaven and Hell take care of themselves, they seem to know what's going on after all. :D
There are more churches in this town than I can count on all my fingers and toes. I wouldn't know which priest or pastor or whatever to go to...nor would I feel comfortable doing so. I'd feel kind of obligated to attend that church. This works for me much better. For me, it's not a question of faith, it's just a question of a set of beliefs others hold.

Bolded.
Maybe I'm just nitpicky...but I don't think I could be a part of a religion and not want to know all these specifics :)

Ah, sorry. I didn't actually clink the links *abashed*:eek: Now I feel unloved :(

I'm not interested in the religion as a whole (as in all the details), but having lived in a society where Christian mythology (my word, sorry, not meant to be offensive) permeates much of our entertainment and daily life, I have a few questions I'd really appreciate answered:). Brief, summarising explanations would serve best rather than exhaustive historical and biblical references. And thank you very much if you take the time to help me on this!

1) All the people who lived and died before Christ walked the Earth...did they automatically go to hell? Even if they were good people? Even if they would have accepted Christ if they knew it was a possibility? It's something I've always wondered.

2) I remember reading about the levels of various heavenly beings, cherubim and so on...do those categories still exist anyway as part of the Christian belief system? How about demonic creatures? If they are no longer part of the regular beliefs, when were they phased out and why?

3) What is hell really supposed to be like? (what have you been taught it is?)

4) What is heaven really supposed to be like? (ditto)

5) Is there still a belief in Purgatory? What is that supposed to be? And are there any other levels between heaven and hell? Is that a sect-specific thing?

6) On the topic of heaven and hell...where are they? Like...would they be in different dimensions? Or out in space? What are the ideas on that? And do you ever get out of them and just...die? I mean...is there no recycling of souls or anything? And if hell has way more souls...is there some sort of imbalance?

7) I almost forgot my biggest question. Do Christians still believe in the Devil? Some details on that would be most appreciated!

1. Before Christ walked the Earth, of course the religious Jews who followed God's command could go to Heaven. What if you've never heard of the Judeo-Christian God? God gave you a conscience. If you followed your conscience and admitted that you were a sinner and strived to improve your doings, then perhaps you go to Heaven too. But after all, God makes the decisions, so I can't say for sure.

2. Angels and demons are very much part of the world of spirits. I believe in their existence. My church does not phase out their existence.

3 + 4: Too late at night to research, but the later chapters of Revelation give you a very good description.

5: Yeah. What's purgatory?

6. Heaven and Hell are spiritual concepts and locations, therefore are not bound by physical limits such as "imbalance".

7. I believe that the Devil exists. What do you mean "details"?

There are more churches in this town than I can count on all my fingers and toes. I wouldn't know which priest or pastor or whatever to go to...nor would I feel comfortable doing so. I'd feel kind of obligated to attend that church. This works for me much better. For me, it's not a question of faith, it's just a question of a set of beliefs others hold.

Ask people you know. DON'T base it on, he's cool or nice or anything like that, make sure you find a smart one

7. I believe that the Devil exists. What do you mean "details"?
Well...what is the Devil? Is he able to manifest himself, or is he separate like God? Does he tempt humans to evil, or is he the one that gave us the freedom to choose? What is your concept of the Devil?

Ask people you know. DON'T base it on, he's cool or nice or anything like that, make sure you find a smart one
The problem is...when you bring up religion (especially in this town) people take it as an excuse to 'recruit' you into their church. I'd really prefer to avoid that sort of thing.

Maybe I'm just nitpicky...but I don't think I could be a part of a religion and not want to know all these specifics :)

Depends what specifics are important. What is the desperate need to know exactly what Heaven and Hell are? You'll get a dozen answers anyway depending who you ask.

Well...what is the Devil? Is he able to manifest himself, or is he separate like God? Does he tempt humans to evil, or is he the one that gave us the freedom to choose? What is your concept of the Devil?

The Bible says that the Devil was initially an angel, and did not see why God was in command and therefore chose to rebel with some other angels. We have the freedom to choose from God, and the Devil tempted us with sin.

Depends what specifics are important. What is the desperate need to know exactly what Heaven and Hell are? You'll get a dozen answers anyway depending who you ask.
I'm surprised by the inconsitencies is why I'm asking. It seems a pretty important part of the Christian faith...why is it so...unresolved?

The Bible says that the Devil was initially an angel, and did not see why God was in command and therefore chose to rebel with some other angels. We have the freedom to choose from God, and the Devil tempted us with sin.Correction: Archangel ;)

Correction: Archangel ;)

Excuse: 20 minutes before midnight! :p

Correction: Archangel ;)

Correction: Seraphim ;)

Correction: Seraphim ;)Nah. I think it was archangel. I don't have a bible around to quote though...

Nah. I think it was archangel. I don't have a bible around to quote though...

The Bible typically uses the term 'Archangel' for any above the regular angel status. If we are using terms of our list. Definately falls under seraphim, he was God's lightbearer, that has to mean something more than basic messenger.

Now we're arguing about angels :)

I'm surprised by the inconsitencies is why I'm asking. It seems a pretty important part of the Christian faith...why is it so...unresolved?

Because we are human. No great philosophical or religious work is immune to misinterpretation, why else would Niestche feel it necessary to sayDo not... confound me with what I am not!

Now we're arguing about angels :)

I always enjoy your threads, now be quiet and argue!!!!

BTW no angels are women

I always enjoy your threads, now be quiet and argue!!!!

BTW no angels are womenBut they were capable of reproducing with humans... That was one of the reasons why people needed to be flooded, right? Their blood had become polluted with angelic blood and made them evil...

But they were capable of reproducing with humans... That was one of the reasons why people needed to be flooded, right? Their blood had become polluted with angelic blood and made them evil...
WHAT!!!???

Is this a joke?

And how could being mixed with an angel possibly be a bad thing?

I always enjoy your threads, now be quiet and argue!!!!

BTW no angels are women
But there are so many paintings of female angels...now I'm even more confused...are there little baby angels? Are there a finite number of angels, or do they breed? *falls over with head spinning*

The Bible says that the Devil was initially an angel, and did not see why God was in command and therefore chose to rebel with some other angels. We have the freedom to choose from God, and the Devil tempted us with sin.

Anne Rice has a very interesting version of this in "Memnoch,The Devil".

But there are so many paintings of female angels...now I'm even more confused...are there little baby angels? Are there a finite number of angels, or do they breed? *falls over with head spinning*There's also paintings of the jews taking on Jericho using crossbows and in European style armor.
As for "breeding", I recall there being 120,000 humans being made angels to replace the fallen ones...

WHAT!!!???

Is this a joke?

And how could being mixed with an angel possibly be a bad thing?My dad told me and I haven't managed to check up on it yet.
As for angels being cute and cudly, guess again! Who killed all the first borns in Egypt? Who scorched Sodom and Ghamorrha? Who waged bloody war in heaven? You should really watch the Prophecy. Christopher Walken plays Gabriel :D

My dad told me and I haven't managed to check up on it yet.
As for angels being cute and cudly, guess again! Who killed all the first borns in Egypt? Who scorched Sodom and Ghamorrha? Who waged bloody war in heaven? You should really watch the Prophecy. Christopher Walken plays Gabriel :D
Yeah, I've read many accounts of avenging or warrior angels as opposed to the cute and cuddly version. But we've softened things down a lot as life gets more soft...which is why I think there can now exist this perception of the devil as being a sort of trickster rather than a horrible, evil being who wants to rend your flesh for all eternity...

Some very good questions, and it is my pleasure to attempt to answer them.

1) All the people who lived and died before Christ walked the Earth...did they automatically go to hell? Even if they were good people? Even if they would have accepted Christ if they knew it was a possibility? It's something I've always wondered.

2) I remember reading about the levels of various heavenly beings, cherubim and so on...do those categories still exist anyway as part of the Christian belief system? How about demonic creatures? If they are no longer part of the regular beliefs, when were they phased out and why?

3) What is hell really supposed to be like? (what have you been taught it is?)

4) What is heaven really supposed to be like? (ditto)

5) Is there still a belief in Purgatory? What is that supposed to be? And are there any other levels between heaven and hell? Is that a sect-specific thing?

6) On the topic of heaven and hell...where are they? Like...would they be in different dimensions? Or out in space? What are the ideas on that? And do you ever get out of them and just...die? I mean...is there no recycling of souls or anything? And if hell has way more souls...is there some sort of imbalance?

7) I almost forgot my biggest question. Do Christians still believe in the Devil? Some details on that would be most appreciated!

Now, I can only answer these as a Catholic, though I will try to clear up any misconceptions and offer some (hopefully) enlightening context.

1)The Church teaches that the righteous before the time of Christ were taken into heaven when he died. For instance, the Gospel of Matthew says "Tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised." (Matt 27:52) Furthermore, the Church teaches, and has believed since the earliest times, that after death, there is an individual judgement, and the soul immediately goes to its reward or punishment. There are a number of Bible verses supporting this belief, including the Good Thief who asks Jesus to remember him when He comes into His kingdom. "He replied to him, "Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."" (Luke 23:43) Dante, in his Divine Comedy, laid out a commonly held belief, that of the "Harrowing of Hell". It said that those righteous who died before the time of Jesus waited in a place of contentment, outside Hell proper, and that Jesus, after his death, came and brought the righteous souls into Heaven with Him. This is, I think, based on a statement in 1 Peter 3 which says that Jesus, after his bodily death, went and preached to the "spirits in prison". Finally, there are several OT instances of righteous ones being taken into heaven at the end of their earthly lives, including Enoch and, I think, Elijiah.

2)As has been stated, orders of angels are based on OT suggestions and some popular Jewish legends and teachings, which were defined by a monk in the 12th century, if memory serves me correctly. As to if they are believed today, the answer is yes, some people believe in them. The Church makes no official teaching as to whether angels have divisions among them, only their existence as spiritual beings. As clarification, many of the depictions of the angels in their various orders are meant as symbolism of their roles. For instance, seraphim, the highest order, are often shown as having six wings and six eyes. The wings are symbolic of their swiftness in service of God, the eyes of their knowledge and perception. In Jewish numerology, six is a number of great power and significance, but falls short of seven, the number of perfection which is God's alone. Hence, in Revelation, the mark of the Beast is 666, great power, striving for more, but always falling short of God, the perfect 7.

3)Hell is, as someone quoted JPII, a state of separation from God's love and goodness. It is a place where we are completely removed from all things good, with the full knowledge that it is because of our own sin and pride that we are there. It is also a place of suffering, great, unending suffering. Jesus used the term Gehenna, which was about as nasty a place as you could get, a kind of garbage incinerator outside of the city. Revelation describes Hell as the "lake of fire" into which the reprobate shall be thrown with Satan. Whether there are fires there, I don't know, but fire is a good symbol for that suffering. Most people know what it's like to get a burn, so we can in some sense imagine what it would be like to be trapped in a fire that burns but does not consume. On the other hand, living in the world God created, surrounded by God's goodness, reached down to by God's grace and love whether we acknowledge it or not, we would have a hard time imagining having none of the things that make life what it is.

4)Heaven is the opposite of Hell. It is complete and perfect union with God. It is to live and worship in the perfect beatific vision of the Almighty. Our souls have been made clean, we have no desires that separate us from that perfect union. We live with the angels, saints, all those who have died in Christ, for all eternity in perfect bliss. Jackpot! ;)

5) Absolutely. Purgatory is still taught by the Church, and always will be. Unlike heaven and hell, purgatory is not an eternal place. After the Last Judgement, Purgatory will cease to exist, as all souls will then either live with God in heaven or in torment in Hell. Purgatory is not a branch of Hell, or a kind of Hell, as some believe it to be. It is a way for us to attain the purity which will be necessary to enter the perfect bliss I mentioned above. Can you imagine right now actually not having the desire to do things that are wrong? And yet we will be made perfect for Heaven. The Church teaches that, when we confess our sins, they are forgiven, and the breach they created between us and God is mended. The eternal consequences of sin, our separation from God and fate in Hell, is removed. And yet there remains what the Church calls the temporal penalty of sin. Though we are forgiven, we still have an obligation to make amends for our sin, particularly those that harm others. It's like a marriage (a symbol often used to depict the relationship between the Church and God). You have a fight with your spouse, which is your fault. You realize this, beg for forgiveness, and your loving spouse forgives you. But...nothing has really changed yet. What caused the fight? If you don't adress that, then it is just going to happen again. And again. And again. (My fellow married people know what I'm talking about) Unless you DO something, things aren't really all better. You may be forgiven, but unless you really reform yourself, make a change, your relationship is still on thinner ground than it was before the breach. That is why in the sacrament of Confession, after the priest absolves you of your sin, he gives you a penance to perform. These are acts that the Church knows, when performed with true intentions of repentance and change, can help us to overcome our sinful nature and grow closer to God in a permanent way; things like prayer, charity, works of mercy, etc. If you don't do that, you're still forgiven, but you haven't really changed. The Bible tells us that nothing unclean can enter into heaven, so if you die, with no mortal (relationship ending) sins on your soul, where do you stand? You're not going to hell, but you're not yet ready for heaven. Purgatory is the place where those who are destined for heaven have the chance to undergo the purification they may have missed out on here on earth. If there is pain, it is the pain of separation from God, a pain of longing. It's like a long distance relationship...it hurts to be apart, and yet there is a seed of joy, a knowledge that you will see your beloved again.

In a slightly related note, indulgences are acts of charity or piety which the Church says alleviates the debt of temporal punishment we or others may have incurred. Thus, the premise behind the movie Dogma, the plenary indulgence, is faulty. An indulgence is not applicable to someone in a state of mortal sin, that is, someone separated from God. It is, like penance, only beneficial to those whose sins have been forgiven, and, furthermore, if another mortal sin is committed, the "spiritual credit" we have built up is lost...our relationship is truly cut off, and we have to start from scratch at rebuilding it.

6) Where are heaven and hell? That's a hard one. I'd lean toward a "different dimension" answer...a plane of existence as real as ours, outside of the physical world of creation. Once you're in heaven or hell, there is no getting out. Though the souls in hell may wish for nonexistence, they do not die again. And for souls in heaven, the joy continues in perpetuity. There is no recycling of souls, no rebirth once more into the mortal realm. As for imbalance, I don't know quite what you mean by that. It is true that the Bible seems to say there are many more souls who go to hell than to heaven (The narrow gate and all that) but I don't see what kind of imbalance that would create...Hell wouldn't "weigh" more, and the Devil wouldn't "win" by getting more souls, if that's what you mean. (though it reminds me of that "hell frozen over" joke using Boyle's Law that circulates in emails)

7) Does the Devil exist? Yes. He does. Who, exactly, he is is uncertain. The prevailant belief is that Satan was the greatest of all God's angels, Lucifer, who rebelled against God, taking with him as much as 1/3 of the heavenly host. Why he rebelled is another area of conjecture. Some say he wanted to be worshipped himself in God's place, some say he refused to accept the idea of the Word, a part of the eternal Godhead, becoming lowly flesh to redeem the world. Whatever the cause or his position, rebel he did, and he tries to lead us into that same rebellion, to our own undoing. The Devil is often depicted in the Bible as the Tempter, such as in the Gospels, or in the book of Job. All we know for sure is that the Devil is not on equal with God, he is a created, finite being with a definite beginning, who, at the end of time, will be bound in hell with all his fellow fallen angels and the souls of those who rejected God.

Well, I hope that clears up a few things for you.

Pax vobiscum.

PS, oops, I missed that part about brief responses. Mea culpa.

Pope Brian! Where have you been? :D

Anyone who played Diablo II, remember the angel Tyreal when he's trying to stop mephisto after act II. Honetly, that is one of the best representations of an angel. Six pairs of wings according to belief.

Where have I been? I didn't know I was missed. :)

I'm sorry, Laerod, your name seems familiar, so maybe I posted in a thread with you, but I haven't started posting on the NS forums much yet...still mostly a lurker. Please refresh my memory if we have been introduced before.

Where have I been? I didn't know I was missed. :)

I'm sorry, Laerod, your name seems familiar, so maybe I posted in a thread with you, but I haven't started posting on the NS forums much yet...still mostly a lurker. Please refresh my memory if we have been introduced before.
I remember discussing abortion with some Pope. Might have been you... not sure anymore, though.

3) What is hell really supposed to be like? (what have you been taught it is?)

A very bad place, where those in it are in agony. Jesus mentions "weeping and gnashing of teeth."

4) What is heaven really supposed to be like? (ditto)

A place full of rejoicing... people happy to be with God. I imagine large buffet tables.

5) Is there still a belief in Purgatory? What is that supposed to be? And are there any other levels between heaven and hell? Is that a sect-specific thing?

Purgatory is a Catholic thing... to my knowledge, it is not part of Protestant doctrine.

7) I almost forgot my biggest question. Do Christians still believe in the Devil? Some details on that would be most appreciated!

Yes. Satan is evil, the absence of good. He is the voice in your ear telling you to steal, to beat someone up for no reason, to say a cruel word. Satan wants to show you a good life, with no cares for anyone but yourself, where you can do what you want to (basically live like a sociopath). Because this mindset -- where God is not believed in or respected/followed -- and related actions end in hell, where he is eternally imprisoned, he is perfectly happy when we sin. (anyhow, that's some basic theory/doctrine).

I'm not interested in the religion as a whole (as in all the details), but having lived in a society where Christian mythology (my word, sorry, not meant to be offensive) permeates much of our entertainment and daily life, I have a few questions I'd really appreciate answered:). Brief, summarising explanations would serve best rather than exhaustive historical and biblical references. And thank you very much if you take the time to help me on this!

I'll answer the questions as best I can, but know that there are no "standard" Christians answers to any of these. For the most part, these are things that are debated - and people believe very differently.

1) All the people who lived and died before Christ walked the Earth...did they automatically go to hell? Even if they were good people? Even if they would have accepted Christ if they knew it was a possibility? It's something I've always wondered.

Some people believe that good people went to heaven pre-Christ without the possibility of accepting Christ, just as many people believe that those who have never heard the Gospels these days can go to heaven for being a good person. Catholic doctrine seems to suggest that, other than those who are specifically talked about in the OT as going into the presence of God, everyone pre-Christ went to Hell (or maybe purgatory, but the Nicene Creed suggests Hell). After his death, Christ went into Hell and liberated those who were good people in their lives and were willing to accept Him, taking them up to Heaven

Personally, I think that one can "accept Christ" in many ways, even some which do not use the word Christ at all. I feel that the God or gods in all religions are the way that human beings see the one God that I feel exists. Thus, one can possibly accept that God in one's own path without believing that one has accepted Christ.

2) I remember reading about the levels of various heavenly beings, cherubim and so on...do those categories still exist anyway as part of the Christian belief system? How about demonic creatures? If they are no longer part of the regular beliefs, when were they phased out and why?

The different levels of angels, from what I understand, are based on ancient Jewish writings, not on anything distinctly Christian. They have never had a huge part in the Christian Church, as these writings were never considered part of the core Scripture. However, there are some who believe in them, and the different levels in each.

3) What is hell really supposed to be like? (what have you been taught it is?)

Hell is the absence of God. To someone who loves God, being completely without God would be incredible torment - hence the descriptions of lakes of fire, etc - it would be what a Christian would fear most.

4) What is heaven really supposed to be like? (ditto)

Heaven is the presence of God - and is really something that no one can fully comprehend.

5) Is there still a belief in Purgatory? What is that supposed to be? And are there any other levels between heaven and hell? Is that a sect-specific thing?

This is very sect-specific - mostly specific to Roman Catholicism. I believe Purgatory figures into Eastern Orthodox belief as well.

6) On the topic of heaven and hell...where are they? Like...would they be in different dimensions? Or out in space? What are the ideas on that? And do you ever get out of them and just...die? I mean...is there no recycling of souls or anything? And if hell has way more souls...is there some sort of imbalance?

I don't know that they are physical locations at all. Recycling of souls is something that some people believe and others don't.

7) I almost forgot my biggest question. Do Christians still believe in the Devil?

Some do, some don't. Some believe in Satan as a concept rather than an actual entity. Others believe in Satan as a specific entity that tempts. Interestingly, the ancient Hebrews didn't have any concept of a Satan, as opposed to God, until after the Babylonian exile, when they had been introduced to Zoorastrianism and other religions. Of course, Satan is not directly opposed to God, but more opposed to Michael (head angel).

I'm not interested in the religion as a whole (as in all the details), but having lived in a society where Christian mythology (my word, sorry, not meant to be offensive) permeates much of our entertainment and daily life, I have a few questions I'd really appreciate answered:). Brief, summarising explanations would serve best rather than exhaustive historical and biblical references. And thank you very much if you take the time to help me on this!

These are good questions. I am a Protestant Christian and pretty well versed in the faith. I'll try to answer your questions as best as possible.

[QUOTE]1) All the people who lived and died before Christ walked the Earth...did they automatically go to hell? Even if they were good people? Even if they would have accepted Christ if they knew it was a possibility? It's something I've always wondered.

People before Christ were saved from judgment the same way people after Christ are: through faith. After Christ, the saving faith includes the belief that Christ rose from the dead and that Jesus is Lord. Before Christ, the saving faith would have allowed for these things, had they happened. This is a great question that obviously involved some thought, and I hope this answers it satisfactorily.

2) I remember reading about the levels of various heavenly beings, cherubim and so on...do those categories still exist anyway as part of the Christian belief system? How about demonic creatures? If they are no longer part of the regular beliefs, when were they phased out and why?

Catholics cooked up the levels of heaven somewhere along the line. I have no idea what their basis is for this belief, but Protestants do not believe that there are levels of Heaven; you're either in or you're out, baby! There are still demons, so they weren't phased out. I am not aware of the Catholics or anyone else dismissing their existence altogether, although some churches downplay their role. For the most part, we really don't worry much about demons because, as Christians, we believe they're pretty powerless against our God.

There are different classifications of angels and it would appear that they have ranks. I can be more specific if you express interest, but this could easily turn into a lengthy topic.

3) What is hell really supposed to be like? (what have you been taught it is?)

Hell is the one place where God is not. It is described as very, very hot. Luke 16 describes it like being in agony from flames. Revelation 20 describes it as a lake of molten sulfur. It's a place that you definitely don't want to be.

4) What is heaven really supposed to be like? (ditto)

Revelation 21 describes it as being a place without sorrow, pain or suffering. It's a place where the wickedness and selfishness of human nature has been erased. There are no wars, no death, no anger.

5) Is there still a belief in Purgatory? What is that supposed to be? And are there any other levels between heaven and hell? Is that a sect-specific thing?

This is totally a Catholic thing. As I said previously, I don't know where they came up with it, and I do not believe in it.

6) On the topic of heaven and hell...where are they? Like...would they be in different dimensions? Or out in space? What are the ideas on that? And do you ever get out of them and just...die? I mean...is there no recycling of souls or anything? And if hell has way more souls...is there some sort of imbalance?

This is several questions.

There are spiritual and physical realms. That's the best way to describe them. They overlap to an extent, but we are currently in the physical realm. Heaven and Hell are in the spiritual realm, but to the extent that the spiritual realm overlaps with the physical realm, Heaven is above us and Hell is below us. I'm glad to give you specific scriptures pointing to this idea if you send me a direct message. I've heard a good argument that the physical component of Hell's location is in the molten center of the Earth.

Your soul is eternal; souls are not recycled.

There is not an imbalance, but most people will choose to not go to Heaven. This is because our nature is to be greedy and selfish, and to put ourselves first. God commands us to be selfless and put him first. All of us, including everyone who is saved, do not deserve to go to Heaven--fortunately, God is gracious enough to offer us a way into Heaven, even though we don't deserve it.



7) I almost forgot my biggest question. Do Christians still believe in the Devil? Some details on that would be most appreciated!

Absolutely. I refer you again to Revelation 20 to see his ultimate fate.

Basically, again, we know that the devil is not very powerful, and not at all powerful compared to God, so we don't worry about him. I'm sure this ticks him off, but there's nothing he can do about it. :) He's basically self-centered, prideful, bitter, and deviant. He wanted to be like God (book of Issiah, 14:12-15), and rebelled against him. God kicked him out of Heaven. One of the reasons God created mankind was to prove to Satan and the fallen angels (i.e. demons) how loving and perfect he is. Even though we rebel against God constantly, he'll still forgive us if we let him. Satan and his minions are doomed, and they know it... so they bitterly lash out at God by messing with his creation. But as I said, they're not very powerful.

I hope this helps.

But they were capable of reproducing with humans... That was one of the reasons why people needed to be flooded, right? Their blood had become polluted with angelic blood and made them evil...

Surprisingly, this is probably correct.

Two things, first: the Bible does not say that there are no female angels, HOWEVER all angels mentioned (and there are many) are described with male identifiers and described as having the appearance of young men. I personally believe that all angels are male, but since the Bible does not explicity state this to be the case, this belief is not conclusive.

Secondly, nothing in this post holds any bearing on anyone's salvation; its relevence is extremely, extremely limited, and isn't worth anyone getting worked up over.

That said, as described in Genesis 6, fallen angels bred with humans in the pre-flood era. The half-human, half-angels, called Nephilim, were a race of giants, super-intellegent, and skilled in various arts and trades. There is also substantial evidence that this compromise of man's bloodline was a deciding factor for God bringing about the great flood. I encourage anyone interested in this topic to read a fantastic analysis of the pros and cons of this argument at http://www.letusreason.org/Doct11.htm .

Where's Neo R when you finally want to talk to her?



Getting dressed for work. Keep the thread bumped and I'll give my answers when I get home at 10:30 tonight :D

WHAT!!!???

Is this a joke?

And how could being mixed with an angel possibly be a bad thing?

The name "angel" means "God's messenger". Some angels rebelled against God and were cast out of Heaven. These angels, including the devil, are called demons. Demons and angels are the same type of creature; the difference is whether they're in rebellion against God. The "angels" that bred with humans in Genesis 6, called "sons of God" (read the aforementioned link at http://www.letusreason.org/Doct11.htm for a discussion on why angels/demons are sometimes called "sons of God") had rebelled against God by having this unnatural relationship with the daughters of men.

Because the men born out of these unnatural relationships had demonic lineage, they were especially prone toward corruption.

1) All the people who lived and died before Christ walked the Earth...did they automatically go to hell? Even if they were good people? Even if they would have accepted Christ if they knew it was a possibility? It's something I've always wondered.

I don't think so. Can't think why.

2)
I remember reading about the levels of various heavenly beings, cherubim and so on...do those categories still exist anyway as part of the Christian belief system? How about demonic creatures? If they are no longer part of the regular beliefs, when were they phased out and why?

I think that some Christians believe in them, while others don't. The different angels are an integral part, but as to ranks, beliefs are divided. Same goes for daemons (proper latin spelling!).

3)
What is hell really supposed to be like? (what have you been taught it is?)

I've been taught small bits of conflicting information - the usual "lake-of-fire" when I was a kid, and also a state of mind, of despair. I tend to mentally divide it into cold and hot - cold, I suppose, being despairing in my subconscious, and heat being the usual images of punishment - like when I finished reading The Unknown Story. It's more mainstream thinking now, though, that Hell is, for the most part, not specific punishments but a conscious removal from God, that is voluntary.

4)
What is heaven really supposed to be like? (ditto)

No idea whatsoever.

5)
Is there still a belief in Purgatory? What is that supposed to be? And are there any other levels between heaven and hell? Is that a sect-specific thing?

I know that Roman Catholics believe in Purgatory, through a delightfully simple bit of logic, something like this: "Only perfection would be allowed in God's presence… so sin must be cleansed between the imperfect soul dying and reaching God." Can't say for the other sects, though. I tend to believe in it, but hey, I'll find out eventually.

6)
On the topic of heaven and hell...where are they? Like...would they be in different dimensions? Or out in space? What are the ideas on that? And do you ever get out of them and just...die? I mean...is there no recycling of souls or anything? And if hell has way more souls...is there some sort of imbalance?

I suppose they would be removed from the universe… I have a sort of complex multidimensional diagram in my head, somehow Hell being "lower" but "in the same place" as the universe. I truly am messed up. :)
I don't think you ever get out, however I could be wrong… not sure if on the Last Day, the damned are redeemed, I seem to remember reading something like that in the Bible, but I could be totally wrong.

7)
I almost forgot my biggest question. Do Christians still believe in the Devil? Some details on that would be most appreciated!

I think that most of them do, and I certainly do, as do all the Christians I know. What I HAVEN'T been able to find out, though, is whether Satan and Lucifer are the same entity.

The name "angel" means "God's messenger". Some angels rebelled against God and were cast out of Heaven. These angels, including the devil, are called demons. Demons and angels are the same type of creature; the difference is whether they're in rebellion against God. The "angels" that bred with humans in Genesis 6, called "sons of God" (read the aforementioned link at http://www.letusreason.org/Doct11.htm for a discussion on why angels/demons are sometimes called "sons of God") had rebelled against God by having this unnatural relationship with the daughters of men.

Because the men born out of these unnatural relationships had demonic lineage, they were especially prone toward corruption.

Actually, 'demon' (or 'daemon') comes from a Greek word (daimon), meaning 'messenger', a spirit representative of a higher power. So technically, all angels are 'daemons', though not in the modern sense. :)

Purgatory: the Holy Penalty Box.

God: Three minutes for roughing!
Sinner: Aw, maaaaannnnn...! :D

I always thought that Purgatory was really just a fraud perpetrated by the medieval church, to shore up their funding... kind of like 'indulgences'. The whole concept of 'buying one's way into Heaven' seems kind of antithetical to the rest of (how I understand) Christian teachings. Not that I'm any authority on this stuff, not being Christian and all. :)

1) All the people who lived and died before Christ walked the Earth...did they automatically go to hell? Even if they were good people? Even if they would have accepted Christ if they knew it was a possibility? It's something I've always wondered.

I don't think so. Can't think why.

Read above, m'man!

2)
I remember reading about the levels of various heavenly beings, cherubim and so on...do those categories still exist anyway as part of the Christian belief system? How about demonic creatures? If they are no longer part of the regular beliefs, when were they phased out and why?

I think that some Christians believe in them, while others don't. The different angels are an integral part, but as to ranks, beliefs are divided. Same goes for daemons (proper latin spelling!).

But "demon" is the proper English spelling, because we don't speak Latin. We speak English.

6)
On the topic of heaven and hell...where are they? Like...would they be in different dimensions? Or out in space? What are the ideas on that? And do you ever get out of them and just...die? I mean...is there no recycling of souls or anything? And if hell has way more souls...is there some sort of imbalance?

I suppose they would be removed from the universe… I have a sort of complex multidimensional diagram in my head, somehow Hell being "lower" but "in the same place" as the universe. I truly am messed up. :)
I don't think you ever get out, however I could be wrong… not sure if on the Last Day, the damned are redeemed, I seem to remember reading something like that in the Bible, but I could be totally wrong.

wow, you are really throwing your guesses in this thread!

7)
I almost forgot my biggest question. Do Christians still believe in the Devil? Some details on that would be most appreciated!

I think that most of them do, and I certainly do, as do all the Christians I know. What I HAVEN'T been able to find out, though, is whether Satan and Lucifer are the same entity.

Lucifer was Satan's name before his fall.

Laerod, that was most likely me. I post on occasion when something catches my eye. I hope we were on the same side, and you're not one of those baby eating fetus hating individuals being controlled by...space Jews. :-D

A quick answer to the general theme of these questions is that the Church has been slowly moving away from the physical concepts of these ideas, and applying metaphysical aspects to them all.
i.e. Hell is absence of God's loving presence
Heaven is obtaining God's complete love and presence

That never made much sense to me, though. I mean, the Heaven part does, as Christians believe that's the goal you should get closest to in life and the thing that brings ultimate bliss.

But... if Hell is supposed to be a torturous place, well, absence of God's loving presence doesn't sound that torturous to me. In the absence of other horrible elements, you'd just go along with your ordinary human interaction. Unless each soul is "alone" unless united with others by God? Then, it would be an eternity of nothing but your own thoughts and loneliness, and that could be hellish.

1) All the people who lived and died before Christ walked the Earth...did they automatically go to hell? Even if they were good people? Even if they would have accepted Christ if they knew it was a possibility? It's something I've always wondered.

It's simple, they believed in other gods, so they were treated by those gods, but after a while those religions ceased to existand all their believers have neither hell nor heaven.
So when christianism ceases to exist, every christian soul will be lost.

Makes sense no?

Also, I would like to say that "Bahaal" or "Beëlzebub" are other names for the devil simply because they were two forms of the Cartagian god
"Moloch-Bahaal" and chrsitian priests didn't want their believers sympathising with other religions.

For the same reason, witches were prosecuted, they were actually doctors who prayed to celtic gods, and were close to the people, christian leaders didn't want them to spread their faith, so they were portrayed as helpers of the devil.

Then, it would be an eternity of nothing but your own thoughts and loneliness, and that could be hellish.
I kind of think an eternity of existence, period, would be hellish.

I kind of think an eternity of existence, period, would be hellish.

That may be true as existence is. We are ruled by conflicting desires, pain, lusts, sorrows. But Christianity teaches that there is a purpose to our existence: to love and serve God, and to be with Him. Therefore, if one was in heaven, one's purpose would be perfectly fulfilled. Most people are happier when they have a sense of purpose than without one. Thus, this would be an ultimate fulfillment of our innermost purpose for being. Granted, I find the very concept of eternity, even in heaven, disconcerting to think about, so I try to avoid those thoughts late at night. :)

I'm not interested in the religion as a whole (as in all the details), but having lived in a society where Christian mythology (my word, sorry, not meant to be offensive) permeates much of our entertainment and daily life, I have a few questions I'd really appreciate answered:). Brief, summarising explanations would serve best rather than exhaustive historical and biblical references. And thank you very much if you take the time to help me on this!

1) All the people who lived and died before Christ walked the Earth...did they automatically go to hell? Even if they were good people? Even if they would have accepted Christ if they knew it was a possibility? It's something I've always wondered.

2) I remember reading about the levels of various heavenly beings, cherubim and so on...do those categories still exist anyway as part of the Christian belief system? How about demonic creatures? If they are no longer part of the regular beliefs, when were they phased out and why?

3) What is hell really supposed to be like? (what have you been taught it is?)

4) What is heaven really supposed to be like? (ditto)

5) Is there still a belief in Purgatory? What is that supposed to be? And are there any other levels between heaven and hell? Is that a sect-specific thing?

6) On the topic of heaven and hell...where are they? Like...would they be in different dimensions? Or out in space? What are the ideas on that? And do you ever get out of them and just...die? I mean...is there no recycling of souls or anything? And if hell has way more souls...is there some sort of imbalance?

7) I almost forgot my biggest question. Do Christians still believe in the Devil? Some details on that would be most appreciated!

1. In the 'Inferno' by Dante, he says that those born before Christ, even Moses and Noah, etc. were in Limbo. When Jesus descended into Hell after His crucifixion, He took the others with Him when He ascended into Heaven. That's just Dante's view, however, and is not the official view of the Church.

2a. Yes, those are known as the 'Choirs' of angels, of which there are nine. Seraphim are the highest order of angels. They are the angels who are attendants or guardians before God's throne. They praise God calling, "Holy Holy Holy is the Lord of Hosts." The only Bible reference is Isaaiah 6:1-7. Seraphim have six wings, two cover their faces, two cover their feet, and two are for flying.
Cherubim rank after the Seraphim and are the second highest in the nine heirarchies of angels. The Old Testament does not reveal any evidence that the Jews concidered them as intercessors or helpers of God. They were closely linked with God's glory. They are manlike in appearance and double-winged and were guardians of God's glory. They symbolized, then, God's power and mobility. In the New Testament, they are alluded to as celestial attendants in the Apocolypse (Rv 4-6). Catholic tradition describes them as angels who have an intimate knowledge of God and continually praise Him.
Thrones are the Angels of pure Humility, Peace and Submission. They reside in the area of the cosmos where material form begins to take shape. The lower Choirs of Angels need the Thrones to access God.
Dominions are Angels of Leadership. They regulate the duties of the Angels, making known the commands of God.
Virtues are known as the Spirits of Motion and control the elements. They are sometimes refered to as 'the shining ones.' They govern all nature. They have control over seasons, stars, moon; even the sun is subject to their command. They are also in charge of miracles and provide courage, grace, and valor.
Powers are Warrior Angels against evil defending the cosmos and humans. They are known as potentates. They fight against evil spirits who attempt to wreak havoc through human beings. The chief is said to be either Samael or Camael, both angels of darkness.
Archangels are generally taken to mean 'chief or leading angel' (Jude 9; 1 Thes 4:16), they are the most frequently mentioned throughout the Bible. They may be of this or other heirarchies as St. Michael Archangel, who is a princely Seraph. The Archangels have a unique role as God's messanger to the people at critical times in history and salvation (Tb 12:6, 15; Jn 5:4; Rv 12:7-9) as in the Annunciation and the Apocalypse. A feast day celebrating the Archangels Michael, Gabriel and Raphael is celebrated throughout the Church Sep 29. St Michael has been invoked as patron and protector of the Church from the times of the Apostles. The Eastern Rite and many thoers place him over all the angels, as Prince of the Seraphim. He is described as the 'chief of princes' aand as the leader of the forces of Heaven in their triumph over Satan and his followers. The Angel Gabriel first appeared in the Old testament in the prophecies of Daniel. He appeared to Zechariah to announce the birth of St. John the Baptist. It was also Gabriel who proclaimed the Annunciation of Mary to be the mother of our Lord and Saviour. The Angel Raphael first appeared in the book of Tobit (Tobias). He announces, "I am the Angel Raphael, one of the seven who stand before the throne of God."
Principalities are referred to as a type of spiritual (metaphysical) being which are now quite hostile to God and human beings. The clarity of the New Testament witness helps to see that these beings were created through Christ and for Him. Given their hostility to God and humans though sin, Christ's ultimate rule over them (ibid) expresses the reign of the Lord over all the cosmos. This is the Lordship of Christ, which reveals God's tremendous salvation in conquerig sin and death at the cross, and now takes place in the Church.
Angels in general are closest to the material world and human beings. They deliver the prayers to God and God's answers and other messages to humans. Angels have the capacity to access any and all other angels at any time. They are the most caring and socius to assist those who ask for help.
taken from Catholic Online: http://www.catholic.org/saints/anglchoi.shtml
2b. demons are fallen angels, who fell from grace after they sided with Lucifer when he challenged the Throne. Lucifer himself was once a chief of angels, his name meaning 'Light-bearer.' There are several listings on different demon and their roles, or placements. For example,Abbodona and Asmodeus were Seraphim, Azazel, Beelzebub and Balberith, were Cherubim. Olivier was once an Archangel.

3. Hell is, in the strictest sense, a distancing from God. It is the inability to be in the presence of the Beautific Glory of God and to feel the warmth of His love.

4. Heaven is a closeness to God, the exact opposite of Hell.

5. Purgatory is taught by the Catholic Church (I'm not sure about the others) as a place of cleansing. If you die with venial sins (not mortal) or have asked forgiveness for your sins before death, you must be cleansed before reching the holy purity of Heaven. Think of scraping your boots of mud before entering the house, only your scraping your soul of sin.

6. Christianity does not teach on reincarnation, but there are many people who believe it is possible. As for the location of Heaven and Hell, we exist in an immense universe. Think of it as not another dimension, but another spectrum of existence. We all know of infrared and ultraviolent, the light ranges in which visible (white) light exists. Heaven and Hell are much the same, the movement of our souls from one spectrum to another.

7. Yes, Christians still believe in the Devil. Although the listings of demons and namings can get confused, there is still belief in him.

I'm sorry this was so long. I hope it helps, and I hope I didn't repeat anything that has already been posted.

Peace be with you :D

But... if Hell is supposed to be a torturous place, well, absence of God's loving presence doesn't sound that torturous to me. In the absence of other horrible elements, you'd just go along with your ordinary human interaction. Unless each soul is "alone" unless united with others by God? Then, it would be an eternity of nothing but your own thoughts and loneliness, and that could be hellish.
I was told to think of it as the sun suddenly going away. Not night, for night brings the promise of day, and there are stars to remind you of the light. But a withdrawl of all warmth and love, everything that has made you happy, cared for you, sustained you through the difficult times, is now gone, and will be gone forever. There is no saying I'm sorry, I didn't mean it, to get it back, it is GONE.

And the worst part of it is, IT IS YOUR FAULT!

That is Hell.

Or so I'm told.

Sinuhue:

I'm Protestant, so I will speak of the Protestant Christian teachings....the Catholic Church has different views on some of these things, but again, I can only speak about was the Protestant churches teach...My answers are very long, so I will break each question up in different posts for you and I hope that you find them helpful.

YOUR QUESTION
1) All the people who lived and died before Christ walked the Earth...did they automatically go to hell? Even if they were good people? Even if they would have accepted Christ if they knew it was a possibility? It's something I've always wondered.

MY ANSWER
Salvation in the Old Testament isn't discussed primarily in terms of “going to heaven”— but in terms of belonging to God” as his people. This is true of the New Testament, too—heaven is mentioned, but union with Christ is mentioned almost 200 times just in Paul's letters. We see this belonging to God—this covenant—beginning with Abraham. God called Abraham from the nations, making a covenant with him—a solemn oath or commitment—even passing between the dismembered halves of animals in a self-maledictory oath, God saying in essence, "If I ever leave you, may I myself be torn apart" (Gen 15:6-21). God promised Abraham that he would make him into a great nation, bless him, and bless all the peoples of the earth through him (Gen 12:1-3). Also included in this promise was the land itself (Gen 15:18-21). It’s in this context that Scripture says, "Abram believed God, and he credited it to him as righteousness" (Gen 15:6). Abraham was justified by faith. God then gave him an outward sign of this covenant relationship in circumcision (Gen 17). What's so striking about all of this is that God did it all—it's salvation by grace alone. Certainly Abram responded to this call—which was a major endeavor, leaving his people and traveling through the desert to a far-off land. But God made the choice. God gave the call. God made all the promises. Salvation was from the Lord. When Abram believed, God saw his faith and credited righteousness to his account, even though Abraham continued to be a sinner (...doubting God's promise of a son, committing adultery with his servant, lying about his wife—almost causing her to end up in an adulterous relationship with a foreign king, etc). Though faith was required and outward signs were taken very seriously—remember how God came after Moses to kill him when Moses failed to circumcise his sons— still, salvation was by grace through faith, according to God's calling.

MOSAIC LAW
Centuries later, Abraham's descendants (later called Israel) received the Mosaic Law atop Sinai. The regulations God gave his people begin with the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20 and continue on-and-off through Numbers—and were repeated to the Israelites before they entered the Promised Land (...hence Deuteronomy, literally the "second law"). But even this law was given in the context of an already-established covenantal relationship. God begins, "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt..." (Ex 20:2)—and THEN makes his demands. God didn't claim to belong to any other people on earth, but he had given himself to the family of Abraham, to be their God. The whole Mosaic code needs to be understood in this relational context of covenant grace. Though there were blessings for obedience and cursings for disobedience (what we call fatherly discipline), the commandments were not a means of earning salvation. It's interesting to compare Hebrews 12 and its discussion of God's loving discipline, which follows his discussion of Old Testament saints who lived by faith (chapter 11). God established about five different sacrifices within the Mosaic administration of his covenant, including one for guilt and another for sin—as well as the "big" one annually on the Day of Atonement. In these sacrifices, the guilt of the sinner would symbolically be transferred to the animal (sometimes by the sinner's laying his hands onto the animal), which would then be "punished" (either slaughtered or driven out of the land) in place of the sinner (—it's where we get the term "scapegoat"). These sacrifices prefigure Christ. God required animal sacrifices so that man could receive forgiveness for their sins (Leviticus 4:35; 5:10). I could end there, but let me explain the significance of animal sacrifices as found in the Old Testament. To begin, animal sacrifices is an important motif found throughout Scripture. When Adam and Eve sinned, animals were killed by God to provide clothing for them (Genesis 3:21). Cain and Abel brought sacrifices to the Lord. Cain's was unacceptable because he brought fruit, while Abel's was acceptable because it was the "firstlings of his flock" (Genesis 4:4-5). After the flood receded, Noah sacrificed animals to God. This sacrifice from Noah was an aroma that was soothing to the Lord (Genesis 8:20-21). God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac. Abraham obeyed God, but just as Abraham was to sacrifice Isaac, God intervened and provided a ram to die in the place of Isaac (Genesis 22:10-13). The sacrificial system reaches its climax with the nation of Israel. God commanded the nation to perform numerous different sacrifices. According to Leviticus 1:1-4, a certain procedure was to be followed. First, the animal had to be spotless. Next, the person offering the sacrifice had to identify with the animal. Then the person offering the animal had to inflict death upon it. When done in faith this sacrifice procured forgiveness of sins. Another sacrifice called the day of atonement described in Leviticus 16 demonstrates forgiveness and the removal of sin. The high priest was to take two male goats for a sin offering. One of the goats was sacrificed as a sin offering for the people of Israel (Leviticus 16:15), while the other goat was released into the wilderness (Leviticus 16:20-22). The sin offering provided forgiveness, while the other goat provided the removal of sin. The sacrifice motif does not stop with the nation of Israel. So, YES, people were certainly granted into heaven BEFORE the life and death of Christ. Animal sacrifices have ended because Jesus Christ was the ultimate sacrifice. John the Baptist recognized this when he saw Jesus for the first time, "Behold, the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29). You may be asking yourself, why animals? What did they do wrong? That is the point, in that since the animals did no wrong, they died in place of the one performing the sacrifice. Jesus Christ also knew no wrong but willingly gave himself to die for the sins of mankind (1 Timothy 2:6). Many people call this idea of dying in place of someone else substitution. Jesus Christ took our sin upon himself and died in our place. As 2 Corinthians 5:21 says, "He (i.e., God) made him (i.e., Jesus) who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in him." Through faith in what Jesus Christ accomplished on the cross, the individual can receive forgiveness. In summation, the animal sacrifices were commanded by God so that the individual could experience forgiveness of his sins. The animal served as a substitute--that is, the animal died in place of the sinner. Animal sacrifices have stopped with Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ was the ultimate sacrificial substitute and the only mediator between God and mankind (1 Timothy 2:5).

ROMANS

Paul mentions in Romans 3 that Old Testament believers were forgiven "in the forbearance of God" (Rom 3:25). A forbearance is a postponement on a debt—like when a student graduates from college but doesn't have a good enough job to repay his student loans, the feds may say "We'll give you five years— but then you'll have to start paying." In the Old Testament, God gave his people a forbearance until Christ could come and pay their sin-debt for them. In this way they could avoid the punishment for their sins, even though Christ had not yet died for them. When Paul introduces his doctrine of justification by faith alone in this same chapter, be backs it up with the Old Testament, saying it's a "righteousness from God apart from law," but one "to which the Law and the Prophets testify" (Rom 3:21). The "Law and the Prophets" is a technical term for the Hebrew Scriptures, our Old Testament Paul specifically backs up his teaching by citing Abraham's justification by faith from Genesis (Rom 4) and David's speaking of the forgiveness of sins in Psalm 32 (Rom 4:7-8). Paul makes much this same argument in Galatians 3. By faith, we have been engrafted into God's covenant with Abraham—such that Paul can even refer to the New Testament church as "the Israel of God."
I realize this is a lot more grace than most Christians assume was in the Old Testament. Perhaps they see lots of laws in the Old Testament, and so assume that salvation was by works. But when I read the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7) without the broader covenantal relationship that I know I have with God through faith in Jesus, I can easily assume that salvation is by works in the New Testament—though it isn't. The same promise repeated throughout the Old Testament—that God will be our God and we will be his people—is also repeated in the New Testament At the end of the age, when Old Testament and New Testament believers alike stand before their Redeemer, we are told that "they will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God" (Revelation 21:3). Even the promise of the land is fulfilled then. God's heaven comes down to earth (Rev 20:1-2)—it's an earthly eternity in covenant with God. It will be just like Jesus said—the meek will “inherit the land” (or, as it's often translated, “the earth”, Mt 5:5).

YOUR QUESTION:
2) I remember reading about the levels of various heavenly beings, cherubim and so on...do those categories still exist anyway as part of the Christian belief system? How about demonic creatures? If they are no longer part of the regular beliefs, when were they phased out and why?

MY ANSWER:
The Classifications of Angels
Paul Enns provides us with an excellent overview of most of the various rankings or classifications of the organized angelic world.

Angels who are governmental rulers. Ephesians 6:12 refers to “ranking of fallen angels”: rulers are “those who are first or high in rank”; powers are “those invested with authority”; world-forces of this darkness “expresses the power or authority which they exercise over the world”; spiritual forces of wickedness describes the wicked spirits, “expressing their character and nature.” Daniel 10:13 refers to the “prince of the kingdom of Persia” opposing Michael. This was not the king of Persia but rather a fallen angel under Satan’s control; he was a demon “of high rank, assigned by the chief of demons, Satan, to Persia as his special area of activity” (cf. Rev. 12:7).

Angels who are highest ranking. Michael is called the archangel in Jude 9 and the great prince in Daniel 12:1. Michael is the only angel designated archangel, and may possibly be the only one of this rank. The mission of the archangel is protector of Israel. (He is called “Michael your prince” in Dan. 10:21.) There were chief princes (Dan. 10:13), of whom Michael was one, as the highest ranking angels of God. Ruling angels (Eph. 3:10) are also mentioned, but no further details are given.

Angels who are prominent individuals. (1) Michael (Dan. 10:13; 12:1; Jude 9). The name Michael means “who is like God?” and identifies the only one classified as an archangel in Scripture. Michael is the defender of Israel who will wage war on behalf of Israel against Satan and his hordes in the Tribulation (Rev. 12:7–9). Michael also disputed with Satan about the body of Moses, but Michael refrained from judgment, leaving that to God (Jude 9). Jehovah’s Witnesses and some Christians identify Michael as Christ; this view, however, would suggest Christ has less authority than Satan, which is untenable.

(2) Gabriel (Dan. 9:21; Luke 1:26). His name means “man of God” or “God is strong.” “Gabriel seems to be God’s special messenger of His kingdom program in each of the four times he appears in the Bible record … He reveals and interprets God’s purpose and program concerning Messiah and His kingdom to the prophets and people of Israel.” In a highly significant passage, Gabriel explained the events of the seventy weeks for Israel (Dan. 9:21–27). In Luke 1:26–27 Gabriel told Mary that the One born to her would be great and rule on the throne of David. In Daniel 8:15–16 Gabriel explained to Daniel the succeeding kingdoms of Medo-Persia and Greece as well as the untimely death of Alexander the Great. Gabriel also announced the birth of John the Baptist to Zacharias (Luke 1:11–20).

(3) Lucifer (Isa. 14:12) means “shining one” or “star of the morning.” He may have been the wisest and most beautiful of all God’s created beings who was originally placed in a position of authority over the cherubim surrounding the throne of God.

Angels who are divine attendants. (1) Cherubim are “of the highest order or class, created with indescribable powers and beauty … Their main purpose and activity might be summarized in this way: they are proclaimers and protectors of God’s glorious presence, His sovereignty, and His holiness.” They stood guard at the gate of the Garden of Eden, preventing sinful man from entering (Gen. 3:24); were the golden figures covering the mercy seat above the ark in the Holy of Holies (Exod. 25:17–22); and attended the glory of God in Ezekiel’s vision (Ezek. 1). Cherubim had an extraordinary appearance with four faces—that of a man, lion, ox, and eagle. They had four wings and feet like a calf, gleaming like burnished bronze. In Ezekiel 1 they attended the glory of God preparatory for judgment.

(2) Seraphim, meaning “burning ones,” are pictured surrounding the throne of God in Isaiah 6:2. They are described as each having six wings. In their threefold proclamation, “holy, holy, holy” (Isa. 6:3), it means “to recognize God as extremely, perfectly holy. Therefore, they praise and proclaim the perfect holiness of God. The seraphim also express the holiness of God in that they proclaim that man must be cleansed of sin’s moral defilement before he can stand before God and serve Him.”26

Regarding the governmental rulers in the angelic world, Ryrie described this as follows:

1. Rulers or principalities. These words, used seven times by Paul, indicate an order of angels both good and evil involved in governing the universe (Rom. 8:38; Eph. 1:21; 3:10; 6:12; Col. 1:16; 2:10, 15).

2. Authorities or powers. This likely emphasizes the superhuman authority of angels and demons exercised in relation to the affairs of the world (Eph. 1:21; 2:2; 3:10; 6:12; Col. 1:16; 2:10, 15; 1 Peter 3:22).

3. Powers. This word underscores the fact that angels and demons have greater power than humans (2 Peter 2:11). See Ephesians 1:21 and 1 Peter 3:22.

4. Place of rule. In one place demons are designated as world rulers of this darkness (Eph. 6:12).

5. Thrones or dominions. This designation emphasizes the dignity and authority of angelic rulers in God’s use of them in His government (Eph. 1:21; Col. 1:16; 2 Peter 2:10; Jude 8).27

Some question whether the Seraphim and Cherubim are actually angels since they are never clearly identified as angels, but due to the nature of angels and their service as superhuman servants of God, this is the most logical place to classify them. It would be helpful to also consider Ryrie’s explanation of these angelic beings:

Cherubim: Cherubim constitute another order of angels, evidently of high rank since Satan was a cherub (Ezek. 28:14, 16). They seem to function as guardians of the holiness of God, having guarded the way to the tree of life in the Garden of Eden (Gen. 3:24). The use of cherubim in the decoration of the tabernacle and temple may also indicate their guarding function (Ex. 26:1ff.; 36:8ff.; 1 Kings 6:23-29). They also bore the throne-chariot which Ezekiel saw (Ezek. 1:4-5; 10:15-20). Some also identify the four living ones of Revelation 4:6 as cherubim, though others feel these represent the attributes of God. Representations of the cherubim will also be a part of the millennial temple (Ezek. 41:18-20).

Seraphim: All we know about this rank of angelic beings is found in Isaiah 6:2, 6. Apparently the seraphim were an order similar to the cherubim. They acted as attendants at the throne of God and agents of cleansing. Their duty also was to praise God. Their description suggests a six-winged humanlike creature. The word may be derived from a root meaning “to burn” or possibly from a root which means “to be noble.”28

Three other classification of angels remain:

1. Elect Angels: In 1 Timothy 5:21, Paul speaks of “the elect angels.” These are the holy angels who are somehow included in the elect purposes of God. These are angels who did not follow after Satan in his rebellion. There is little revealed about their election, but apparently there was a probationary period for the angelic world and these, being the elect of God, remained faithful and are confirmed in their holy state in the service of the Lord. As Chafer writes, “The fall of some angels is no more unanticipated by God than the fall of man. It may be implied, also that angels have passed a period of probation.”29

2. The Living Creatures: These are angelic creatures who seem to be involved with revealing the glory of the God of Israel in His omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence (Ezek. 1:5f; Rev. 4:6; 6:1). Ezekiel 10:15, 20 reveal them as cherubim. Through the four faces, they may also anticipate what God would do to bring salvation to man through His Son: (a) The face of the man suggests wisdom, compassion, intelligence and pictures Christ’s humanity as the Son of man, the special focus found in the gospel of Luke; (b) the face of a lion speaks of kingly appearance and pictures Christ as King which is Matthew’s emphasis; (c) the face of a bull or ox portrays a servant, the emphasis seen in Mark; and (d) the face of an eagle speaks of heavenly action and portrays the deity Christ, which is John’s emphasis.

3. Watchers: “Watchers” is an Aramaic word which means, “vigilant, waking, watchful.” Verse 17 may infer this is a special type of angel (if a special class is intended). It seems to describe holy angels who are constantly vigilant to serve the Lord and who watch over the rulers of the world and the affairs of men (Dan. 4:13, 17, 23). The added description, “a holy one” in verse 13 may imply there are unholy watchers, i.e., demonic forces who are watching the affairs of men and seeking to influence and destroy.

Special Angels
Angels Associated With the Tribulation
In Revelation a number of angels are specifically associated with certain judgments that will be poured out on the earth like the seven trumpets and the seven last plagues (Rev. 8-9; 16). In addition, some angels are related to special functions given to them, at least in these last days. There is the angel who has power over fire (Rev. 14:18), the angel of the waters (9:11), the angel of the abyss who will bind Satan (20:1-2).

Angels Associated With the Church
In Revelation 2-3, each of the seven letters to the seven churches is addressed to “the angel of the church of …” In addition, they are each seen to be in the right hand of Christ in the vision of chapter one (Rev. 1:16, 20). However, since the term for angel means “messenger” and is also used of men, there is debate over whether these references refer to angelic beings or to the human leaders of the seven churches. It could refer to a guardian angel over these churches or to those men who function in the capacity of teachers of the Word, like the human pastors or elders.

"What does the Bible say about demons?"

Answer: Revelation 12:9 is the clearest Scripture on the identity of demons, "The great dragon was hurled down-that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him." The Bible indicates that the demons are fallen angels – angels who along with Satan rebelled against God. Satan’s fall from heaven is described in Isaiah 14:12-15 and Ezekiel 28:12-15. Revelation 12:4 seems to indicate that Satan took one-third of the angels with him when he sinned. Jude verse 6 mentions angels who sinned. So, it is likely that demons are the angels who followed Satan in sin against God.

Satan and his demons now look to destroy and deceive all those who follow and worship God (1 Peter 5:8; 2 Corinthians 11:14-15). The demons are described as evil spirits (Matthew 10:1), unclean spirits (Mark 1:27), and angels of Satan (Revelation 12:9). Satan and his demons deceive the world (2 Corinthians 4:4), attack Christians (2 Corinthians 12:7; 1 Peter 5:8), and combat the holy angels (Revelation 12:4-9). Demons are spiritual beings, but they can appear in physical forms (2 Corinthians 11:14-15).

YOUR QUESTION:
3) What is hell really supposed to be like? (what have you been taught it is?)

MY ANSWER:
Yes, hell is the absence of God, but think about it...with God you have ultimate order and without God you have ultimate chaos! In Mark 9, notice that the Lord Jesus repeats three times about Hell, "where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched." Now, I personally feel that it is a great waste of time to quibble and argue with people about whether it is literal, real fire or not. And it seems there is some reason for saying that it need not necessarily be a real fire, or that this is a literal, real worm that is referred to here. But it is interesting to note that one of the Bible words used to describe Hell is Gehenna, and that referred to the garbage dump of the valley of Hen, where there was fire constantly burning, and the worm and maggots never lacked something to eat. They were always alive, always in existence. Will there literally be a burning fire in Hell? The fact of the matter is that if this is just symbolic language, it's bad enough for me, and certainly the reality will be worse than the symbol. And fire isn't very funny. If you've ever been badly burned, you never forget it. And if the Lord is simply using symbolic language, how much more terrible must the reality be?

You don't need fire to be in pain.

Now, I don't think physical suffering is the worse kind of suffering. We know that when Jesus was on the cross He took and an awful lot of abuse. He was spit on and mocked. They pushed sharp thorns down into His head, shredded His back with the cat-o'-nine-tails, drove the nails in and the spear. He was even deserted by His own disciples. The physical suffering was great. They even plucked the beard out of His face. But you never hear the Lord Jesus complaining about any of that. Rather, the peak of His agony and His suffering is when He cries out, "My God, my God why has thou forsaken me?"

The real pinnacle of suffering for Jesus was to be God-forsaken and to be left alone. That hurt more than thorns and thistles and spears and nails and whips and spit and all the rest--to be God-forsaken.

When we read in the Old Testament, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4), really the idea of the word is that it shall be separated. It is not non-existence or annihilation, but rather it is separation from God.

Physical death is the separation of the soul from the body.

Spiritual death is the separation of the soul from God.

In Hades, what do people remember?

Looking at Luke 16, and the story of the rich man and Lazarus, I'd like to mention that there is no indication here that this is a parable. It doesn't start out like a parable, but says, there was a rich man, and a man by the name of Lazarus, specifically named. Parables don't usually take that turn. And the one was carried to Abraham's bosom and the other one was a lost soul who went to a place of punishment and torment. But I want you to notice in this story that when the rich man was in eternity without God, without hope, his memory was very much alive. He said, "Send Lazarus to give me a little relief." At another point he said, "Send him to tell my five brothers, lest they also come to this place of torment."

Every once in a while, you'll hear somebody say concerning some member of their family whom they know is unsaved, "Well, if he's gone to Hell, or she's gone to Hell, I want to go there and be with them." I've got news for you--they don't want you there. The rich man said, "Go tell my five brothers, lest they also come to this horrible place." He got very missionary-minded and very evangelistic a little late in the game.

What did the Lord say to him? "Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime had thy good things." I don't really think we need to talk about fire. I think one of the most horrible, terrible features of eternity without Christ would be to have your faculty of memory--to remember the gospel services you sat through and kept saying "no" to Christ--to remember your hardness and coldness of heart to somebody that was a testimony--to remember your indifference--to remember programs and meetings in which you emotionally were stirred and maybe tears came to your eyes and a lump to your throat, and you said "No!" to Christ. I can't think of anything that would be more horrible than that. "Son, remember."

You don't need fire to be in pain. You don't need physical suffering. Just to be God-forsaken--separated from God and all that is good and holy and to have your memories along with it. To remember a mother and dad who prayed for you, who tried to lead you right. You took the bit in your mouth and decided to go your own way. You wouldn't listen. A horrible thing memory can be if we're outside of Christ. "Son, remember." And evidently, man in eternity could see, he could remember. He didn't need to have fire to make him uncomfortable. There were plenty of other factors to make Hades and Hell very unfunny. To be out in eternity without Christ is very unfunny.

YOUR QUESTION:
4) What is heaven really supposed to be like? (ditto)

MY ANSWER:
The Bible gives us a more complete picture of heaven than we might guess. First, we can take a little look at what heaven won't be.

In heaven, there will be: No power shortages, for God is all powerful; no bumping into things in the dark; no sleepless nights (there is no night there, Revelation 21:25). Nor will there be: Bills; hospitals; bank accounts. In fact, heaven will have: No complaints; no back-talk; no hate; no fear; no crime.

Are you really ready to live in heaven? Now, let's take a close look at what heaven will be like: Heaven will be a place of fellowship. "I go to prepare a place for you. I will come again and receive you unto myself" (John 14:3). The children of God shall "meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (I Thessalonians 4:17). "He who overcomes, I will give him the Morning Star." "I am Jesus. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and Morning Star." (Revelation 2:26-28; 22:16). "And it shall come to pass that before they call, I will answer, and while they are yet speaking, I will hear" (Isaiah 65:24).

Heaven will be a place to worship God. When Isaiah speaks for the Lord of the new heavens and earth, he prophesies that "all flesh shall come to worship before me" (Isaiah 66:22,23). The Apostle, John, also predicts the same thing saying: "For Thou only are holy: for all nations shall come and worship before Thee" (Revelation 15:4; 21:24).

Surely heaven will be a place of joy and productive work. We can be sure that in heaven we will be like God and Jesus, and they have always worked. Jesus said, "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work" (John 5:17). We find this same description of the new heavens and new earth in Revelation 21:1 and Isaiah 65:17. Isaiah describes it as a place of joy where there will be no tears nor the sound of crying. This is in Isaiah 65:19, and also in Revelation 21:4; 7:17. Isaiah continues to show us it will be a place where one can labor and see his labor bear fruit. This is in Isaiah 65:21-23.

Heaven will have a beauty beyond our imagination. The best John could do to describe heaven was to say it was like an entire city of transparent gold. He says: The walls of the new city are precious jewels. The gates are twelve single pearls. The city itself and its streets are pure gold, yet like transparent glass. This is found in Revelation 21:18, 19, 21.

And the whole city is lighted by the glory of God. Heaven is a place of matchless blessings. Jesus has prepared a mansion for us there. Great treasure is stored up for us; in fact, the saints "will inherit all things" (Revelation 21:7). The leaves of the tree of life will guarantee our health. and the crystal pure water of the river of life will flow from the throne of God to the tree of eternal life. For the first time since the Garden of Eden, God's children may eat out of this tree in His paradise (Genesis 3:22 and Revelation 2:7).

In heaven we will be given new names, new imperishable bodies. and we will be clothed in the white robes of righteousness. We will be glorious living stones; pillars in the eternal temple of God (I Corinthians 15:52; 1 Peter 2:5; Revelation 3:12).

Best of all, heaven with God and Jesus will be a place of love. God in tender love will wipe away all our tears (Revelation 21:4). The angels will rejoice as heaven fills with righteous Christians (II Peter 3:13). Those spirits who have hungered and have thirsted to humbly live with God; those with pure hearts; those who have willingly endured persecution; and those who have lived for God's peace, will live together in life and love forever and ever.

YOUR QUESTION:
5) Is there still a belief in Purgatory? What is that supposed to be? And are there any other levels between heaven and hell? Is that a sect-specific thing?

MY ANSWER:
5)The belief in Purgatory is a Roman Catholic belief, but is not a belief of the Protestant churches. The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031). I don't believe in Purgatory and there is no Biblical reference to the idea of Purgatory. In fact, Protestants believe that we will be with God the day that we pass over from this life to the next. This passage is the strongest evidence that when we die, those who have accepted Christ as their Savior will be with Him on the day we die.

"One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!" But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong." Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." Jesus answered him, 'I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.' " ( Luke 23:32-43, NIV)

What is this paradise? The word is found in two other places in the New Testament. First, in 2 Cor. 12:3: Paul says, "I know a man in Christ, who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven - whether in the body or out of the body, I do not know; God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into Paradise—whether in the body or out of the body, I do not know, God knows—and he heard things which cannot be told, which man may not utter." Thus Paradise is the heavenly abode of God where there are found things prepared by God for those who love him, which are utterly indescribable (1 Cor. 2:9). The second place the word "Paradise" is found is in Rev. 2:7. Here Jesus says to the church at Ephesus, "To him who conquers, I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God." And if we look at the end of the book of Revelation we find that the tree of life is in the heavenly city of God. In Rev. 22:1 John said, "Then he showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."

But in all this, the one thing that Jesus chose to mention to the repentant thief on the cross (if you can only say one thing, what do you say?) "You will be with me today." You have to love and admire Jesus a lot for that to be a solace when you leave this life behind.

1) Yes

2) No

3) Eternal Torture

4) Eternal Perfection

5) No

6) Up & Down

7) Yes


Sorry, I'm really tired, and don't want to be specific....

YOUR QUESTION:
6) On the topic of heaven and hell...where are they? Like...would they be in different dimensions? Or out in space? What are the ideas on that? And do you ever get out of them and just...die? I mean...is there no recycling of souls or anything? And if hell has way more souls...is there some sort of imbalance?

MY ANSWER:
There is no specific mention in the Bible of where heaven and hell are located. Scripture indicates that heaven may exist entirely beyond the visible universe. In 2 Corinthians 12:2-3, the apostle Paul refers to "the third heaven"--paradise--far beyond the first heaven (Earth's atmosphere) and the second heaven (the realm of the stars). He also speaks of the Lord's having "ascended higher than all the heavens" (Eph. 4:10). I believe that both heaven and hell are not of this plain of existance, but both are VERY real places. As far as if you ever get out of them, I think that my previous answers on heaven and hell have answered that, but if you still have questions, please ask.

Isn't it nice that Christians can answer for all Christians?

YOUR QUESTION:
7) I almost forgot my biggest question. Do Christians still believe in the Devil? Some details on that would be most appreciated!

MY ANSWER:
7) Yes, Christians believe in the devil. The first thing to know about Satan is that he is a spirit being and not a human being, and has never been a human being. Satan is an angel. When he was created his name was Lucifer, but now it is Satan, (I'll explain why later). Satan was a cherub.
Let's look into this; shall we?

Ezekiel 28:12-15
"Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
'You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared. You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. (NIV)
Satan: The King of Tyre
This passage is talking about Lucifer/Satan. It calls him a "guardian cherub", and the "king of Tyre". The "king of Tyre" just means that Satan is the power behind the man called the "ruler of Tyre" found earlier in the text.

Ezekiel 28:1-2 (earlier in the text)
The word of the LORD came to me: "Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:" 'In the pride of your heart you say, "I am a god; I sit on the throne of a god in the heart of the seas."
But you are a man and not a god, though you think you are as wise as a god. (NIV)
In these two passages we see two different beings. In Ezekiel 28:1-2 we see the "ruler of Tyre" and in Ezekiel 28:12-15 we see "the king of Tyre". They are not the same person. It is not possible that the "ruler of Tyre" is an angel because it specifically says that he is a man. And in the second case it is not possible that "the king of Tyre" is a man, because it says specifically that he was a guardian cherub, (that is, an order of angel). So, because of the context we can see that Ezekiel 28:12-15 is talking about Lucifer/Satan, and the earlier part of Ezekiel twenty-eight is talking about the human ruler of Tyre.

Satan is also called, "O Morning Star, son of the Dawn" (Isaiah 14:12 NIV), which is translated "Lucifer" in the King James Version; here in Ezekiel he is called "the king of Tyre"; "the serpent" in Genesis chapter three; "the god of this age" in 2 Corinthians 4:4; and by other names in other places in the Bible.

When Lucifer was created he was created a guardian cherub. Lucifer was no ordinary angel, if ordinary can be applied to an angel. This passage (Ezekiel) says that Lucifer was the "model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty." Wow! what a testimony. No one ever called me the model of perfection.

If you read through the relevant portions of the Old Testament you will see that within the Holy of Holies, in both the Tabernacle of Moses (Exodus 25:17-22), and in Solomon's Temple (1 Kings 6:23-35), statues of cherubim guarded the Ark of the Covenant, which is the most holy of the Temple's contents, and this tells us that Lucifer was of the type of angel that watches over access to God. Lucifer was a pretty important angel. The Bible says six times that while on earth God sits enthroned between the cherubim. Let us take a better look at the name Lucifer.

Lucifer

1966 heylel {yay-lale'}
from 1984 (in the sense of brightness); TWOT - 499a; n m
AV - Lucifer 1; 1
Lucifer = "light-bearer"
1) shining one, morning star, Lucifer
1a) of the king of Babylon and Satan (fig.)
2) (TWOT) 'Helel' describing the king of Babylon

Enhanced Strong's Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.

The name Lucifer is sometimes translated "light-bearer" or "bright morning star." This is a very good name to have.

Lucifer Broke Faith with God
Ezekiel 28:17
Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings. (NIV)
There it is! the dreaded "P" word. There is no word worse than the dreaded "P" word. The dreaded "P" word is "pride" or "proud" if you prefer. There is nothing more deadly to the human heart than pride. The world doses up on pride thinking it's the cat's meow. Self-help seminars, self-expression workshops, pride in your work, proud to be an American, take pride in your appearance, proud of your car/truck; the list is truly endless. Pride is the most toxic substance in both creations--Heaven and the Earth.


Proverbs 6:16-19
These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. (The King James Version)
Did you see what tops the list? Seven things that are an abomination to the Lord and "pride" takes the cake. We just saw in the Scriptures that Lucifer became proud because of his beauty and splendor, and because of his pride he broke the faith relationship with God.

God made Lucifer extra special beautiful and wise, and this filled him with pride, and because of pride he thought himself above God's rule. Lucifer had a reason to be proud, but not before God. He was much more beautiful and wise than either you or I, but what is that to God? God is infinitely more beautiful and wise than Satan and all of us put together!

Isaiah 14:12-14
How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! (O Lucifer, son of the morning. KJV) You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." (NIV)
Notice that this passage tells us HOW Lucifer fell from heaven. We see here the effect of the pride revealed to us in Ezekiel chapter twenty-eight. This pride deceived Lucifer into thinking that he needn't remain subservient to God. Lucifer thought that he was sufficient unto himself for determining what was good for him. Because Lucifer believed this he was given the name of Satan, because that is the meaning of the name Satan.

Satan

7854 satan {saw-tawn'}
from 7853; TWOT - 2252a; n m
AV - Satan 19, adversary 7, withstand 1; 27
1) adversary, one who withstands
1a) adversary (in general - personal or national)
2) superhuman adversary
2a) Satan (as noun pr)

Enhanced Strong's Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.

The name Satan means "One Who Withstands" which means, A person that thinks that they know better than God does. (Pride does make one foolish.)

Lucifer thought that he could withstand God, and he became Satan, that is, the Withstander. Lucifer/Satan is decreasing in his "beautiful" fruit. In fact, he is no longer beautiful at all. He is now the poster boy for corruption, or using the Bible's verbiage we can say that he is now the model of corruption.

Let me show you a Scripture that tells us this.

Ezekiel 28:16-19
Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings. By your many sins and dishonest trade you have desecrated your sanctuaries. So I made a fire come out from you, and it consumed you, and I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching. All the nations who knew you are appalled at you; you have come to a horrible end and will be no more.'" (NIV)

We know that Satan is:
An enemy of righteousness. He is a murderer (John 8:44), a liar (John 8:44), and accuser (Rev.12:10) and our adversary (1 Pet.5:8).

A limited creature. He is limited by God (Job.1:12). He is not God’s equal (1 John 4:4). He is not omniscient, omnipotent or infinite in any way. Believers with God’s help can resist him (James 4:7).

And we know that Satan is seeking to oppose God’s plan by promoting evil in every way possible. He does this in two ways.

A. Indirect Activity – He works indirectly through the world (in which he has great freedom and power – John 12:31; 1 John 5:19) and the flesh (Gal.5:19-21). The world, the flesh and the devil are not three separate enemies of the Christian. Rather Satan works through the evil world system (1 John 2:13-15) to exploit the fleshly nature that still wars within us (Rom.7:18; Gal.5:19-21).

B. Direct Activity – He works directly by deception, temptation, attack and possession.

We also know that at the fall of Satan, many angels followed him in that rebellion (demons are fallen angels). A third of the angelic host seem to have fallen with Satan (Rev.12:4 – the imagery of Satan as a “dragon” and angels/demons as “stars”).

I hope that these answers help you in some way!! And if you have any other questions, please ask. :)

Thank you Woodsprites!!!

That was an excellent job, really.

:)

The first thing to know about Satan is that he is a spirit being and not a human being, and has never been a human being.
You do know that spirit is not real? Metaphysically speaking...

You do know that spirit is not real? Metaphysically speaking...

Fortunately, logic and metaphysics don't apply to the Spritual as it exists in Christianity.

RIGHTWINGCONSERVANIA:

Thank you! :) It took me a crazy amount of time to put all of the answers together....so I just hope that it all makes sense!! :)

Fortunately, logic and metaphysics don't apply to the Spritual as it exists in Christianity.

Come again?

Come again?


Sorry, not clear enough in my statement.

What I intended was this:

Human Logic and "Metaphysics" (a human phylosophical concept) do not apply to the Spirit as defined in the Christian faith. The spiritual aspect of both God and man defy logic in their very existence as they do not follow the physical laws of earth as perceived by mankind's earthly, physical senses.

I also do not believe that lack of physical presence does not directly lead to lack of existence.

Better?

Sinuhue,

You asked why there is no clear answer to the questions you asked, and why Christians seem to disagree on them so distinctly.
The thing is, against what many people seem to think, Christianity is far from "one faith". It is a religion with an incredible number of different orientations and sects, there's Roman Catholic, Ethiopian Catholics, Old Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists, Greek-Orthodox, Russian-Orthodox, Methodists, Amish, Mennonites, Anglican, Presbyterian, Jehova's Witnesses, to mention but a few.
Each and every one of those interprets the bible slightly differently (or largely differently).
There are those who think it has to be taken literally from begining to end, there are others who believe most of it has to be regarded as stories up for interpretation and cannot be taken literally, there are those who believe that some parts are literal, others aren't. Even in the groups listed above, there is arguement about some of those questions you asked, as people in the same group will still disagree on how to understand the teachings of their religion.

I think there are two reasons for that :
First of all, Christian faith is now almost 2000 years old. That's an immense amount of time, enough for the religion to splitter into pieces, enough for the original ideas to get lost on the way, be found and lost again, be written down, copied and misspelt, discussed and denied, burnt to ashes and then rediscovered 500 years later....

Second, Christianity is one of the largest religions on the globe. It entered every continent, and of course it got changed to fit the understanding and mentality of the people who were to get missionised and converted. The original ideas of the bible, the Judaic-Greek tradition and way of thinking, cannot be easily applied to fit the understanding of a Viking or a Hun. Metaphors were used, immages were brought up to make them understand the abstract ideas, and sometimes instead of the ideas, the images were accepted. And of course the new religion was mixed with the old ones, superstitions were kept and new superstitions created.
My Grandmother, for example, refused to take me with her to the cemetary before I was baptised, she firmly believed that this would bring extremely bad luck. She will not wash bed linen in the 12 days between Christmas and Epiphany, as this would lead to somebody in the house to die in the next year (these 12 nights originally being the nights a celtic/germanic goddess would be out hunting with her company of dead). All of this has nothing to do with original Christianity, yet my grandmother firmly believe it's Catholic.
I'm sure you will have made similar experiences with your husband's family in Chile.

It's virtually impossible to find details about Christian faith that all denominations agree on...

Right, this concerns Woodsprites post.

According to what I heard, "Satan" comes from the Arabic (?) "Shaitan" and meant "enemy". The Church used an "impure" language, to make it clear just how bad the "enemy" was. Not only Lucifer was referred to as this, a lot of groups that had diverging values from the Church received the "title", hence there being Satanic groups around that don't worship the Devil. I hear the Devil referred to as "the enemy" in a lot of sermons, even today, which is why I'm sure that Satan means enemy.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Laerod:

Satan

7854 satan {saw-tawn'}
from 7853; TWOT - 2252a; n m
AV - Satan 19, adversary 7, withstand 1; 27
1) adversary, one who withstands
1a) adversary (in general - personal or national)
2) superhuman adversary
2a) Satan (as noun pr)

Enhanced Strong's Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.

The name Satan means "One Who Withstands" which means, A person that thinks that they know better than God does. (Pride does make one foolish.)

Wouldn't that be the same as an "enemy"?

ad·ver·sar·y (ăd'vər-sĕr'ē)
n., pl. -ies.
An opponent; an enemy.

As far as the name Lucifer, that is what Satan's name was before he fell and God re-named him Satan. Unfortunately, throughout time the name Lucifer became synominous with Satan's qualities because they are the same being...even though the name Lucifer means "light-bearer". Thus, there is much confusion about Satan/Lucifer. Does that clear everything up for you?

Thus, there is much confusion about Satan/Lucifer. Does that clear everything up for you?Yeah, pretty much. My apologies for missing that in your post, but when they're that long, I usually skim...

Laerod:

I totally understand!! It's all good!! :)

RIGHTWINGCONSERVANIA:

Thank you! :) It took me a crazy amount of time to put all of the answers together....so I just hope that it all makes sense!! :)
Well, thank you - overall you give a neutral overview concerning the issues, even if - as a catholic - I don't find myself in complete agreement. But if a pan-christian answer had to be given to these questiones, I would say yours hit the spot pretty well.

1) All the people who lived and died before Christ walked the Earth...did they automatically go to hell? Even if they were good people? Even if they would have accepted Christ if they knew it was a possibility? It's something I've always wondered.

It's simple, they believed in other gods, so they were treated by those gods, but after a while those religions ceased to existand all their believers have neither hell nor heaven.
So when christianism ceases to exist, every christian soul will be lost.

Makes sense no?

NO! :D

Superb post Woodsprites. I was going to give some short answers but decided they wouldn't do the questions justice. I'm thankful you put all that effort in.

Superb post Woodsprites. I was going to give some short answers but decided they wouldn't do the questions justice. I'm thankful you put all that effort in.

I would argue against one long winded post to do this thread justice. We have a person desiring to learn a few answers to some archaic beliefs and to fully understand it should be a series of small question and answer. Else there will be no true understanding.

I'm not interested in the religion as a whole (as in all the details), but having lived in a society where Christian mythology (my word, sorry, not meant to be offensive) permeates much of our entertainment and daily life, I have a few questions I'd really appreciate answered:). Brief, summarising explanations would serve best rather than exhaustive historical and biblical references. And thank you very much if you take the time to help me on this!

1) All the people who lived and died before Christ walked the Earth...did they automatically go to hell? Even if they were good people? Even if they would have accepted Christ if they knew it was a possibility? It's something I've always wondered.

2) I remember reading about the levels of various heavenly beings, cherubim and so on...do those categories still exist anyway as part of the Christian belief system? How about demonic creatures? If they are no longer part of the regular beliefs, when were they phased out and why?

3) What is hell really supposed to be like? (what have you been taught it is?)

4) What is heaven really supposed to be like? (ditto)

5) Is there still a belief in Purgatory? What is that supposed to be? And are there any other levels between heaven and hell? Is that a sect-specific thing?

6) On the topic of heaven and hell...where are they? Like...would they be in different dimensions? Or out in space? What are the ideas on that? And do you ever get out of them and just...die? I mean...is there no recycling of souls or anything? And if hell has way more souls...is there some sort of imbalance?

7) I almost forgot my biggest question. Do Christians still believe in the Devil? Some details on that would be most appreciated!

1 Yes but at the death of Jesus they went to heaven
I realy dont know if there are diferent levels of them
The same with demons
Hell is eternal pain suffering and without God
Heaven is eternal Joy and eternity with God
There is not purgatory i do not believe it its one or the other
I believe hell and heaven are here on earth its just i cant and you cant see or feel it until we die.
We still believe that satan is around and the cause of our sin though i also know that no matter how evil he is I Am more powerful then him.

Purgatory seems to be irrelevant to my denomination, as nobody ever talks about it. I've been told by friends that it is a "catholic thing" but I'm hesitant to rely on labels.

Angels, Demons, yes they do exist. Cherubim, probably, but again that's one of those things nobody ever talks about. I wonder why. they DO talk about angels and demons.

I'm Christian, not catholic. so that'll help you realize that talk of posession isn't confined to old fashioned catholics.. never seen an exorcism though.

People whose existance pre-dated Christianity: I am the Alpha and the Omega. Doctrine states that Jesus Christ existed before he was born. In the pre-christian days we operated by the jewish covenant. Why would God punish those who never heard the Word, when we didn't have the missionaries to send so that all could hear? It is truth that even those who have no religion (or one that happens to disagree with mine) still desire to live good lives.

Also Sinuhue, if you want to find out some crazy stuff, look for a copy of the Baltimore Catachism.

1) All the people who lived and died before Christ walked the Earth...did they automatically go to hell? Even if they were good people? Even if they would have accepted Christ if they knew it was a possibility? It's something I've always wondered.

It's simple, they believed in other gods, so they were treated by those gods, but after a while those religions ceased to existand all their believers have neither hell nor heaven.
So when christianism ceases to exist, every christian soul will be lost.

Makes sense no?

no.

Originally Posted by Anarcho-syndycalism
1) All the people who lived and died before Christ walked the Earth...did they automatically go to hell? Even if they were good people? Even if they would have accepted Christ if they knew it was a possibility? It's something I've always wondered.

It's simple, they believed in other gods, so they were treated by those gods, but after a while those religions ceased to existand all their believers have neither hell nor heaven.
So when christianism ceases to exist, every christian soul will be lost.

Makes sense no?

1.) Before Christ walked the Earth there was already a way to escape hell. It is detailed in the books of Exodus and Leviticus and touched on some in Deuteronomy. It was the ritual blood sacrifice of animals. Those who followed the rituals and lived a morally acceptable life were spared from hell or "SHEOL" (a jewish word roughly translated to "the pit").

A.) Even if they were good people?
Yes. Being "good" doesn't mean beans to God unless there is some sort of covering over your life (the blood of animals in the early days or the blood of Christ today).

B.) Even if they would have accepted Christ if they knew it was a possibility?
Yes. The bible teaches that after he died, Jesus descended into hell. That's right, Jesus went to hell even though he was completely sinless. Why? Because he was encumbered with the sins (past and present) of the world. While in hell, the bible also teaches that Jesus preached to the inhabitants of Abraham's bosom (the ancient equivelant of hell which was situated across a great divide from the actual "Sheol" or "pit" that I talked about earlier. Abraham's bosom was where those who'd kept the law of Moses went instead of hell.



It's simple, they believed in other gods, so they were treated by those gods, but after a while those religions ceased to existand all their believers have neither hell nor heaven.
So when christianism ceases to exist, every christian soul will be lost.

No, it's not that simple. The key is that you believe that Christianity (where did christianism come from, by the way?) will cease to exist. I do not. That is another argument completely, and one that I have neither the time nor the patience for.

Purgatory: the Holy Penalty Box.

God: Three minutes for roughing!
Sinner: Aw, maaaaannnnn...! :D

I always thought that Purgatory was really just a fraud perpetrated by the medieval church, to shore up their funding... kind of like 'indulgences'. The whole concept of 'buying one's way into Heaven' seems kind of antithetical to the rest of (how I understand) Christian teachings. Not that I'm any authority on this stuff, not being Christian and all. :)I completely agree, and I'm a [n Anglican] Christian.

IMO, Purgatory is a dangerous belief to hold, it serves to undermine Christ's sacrifice on the cross. I mean, He died to save all our souls from Sins, but that isn't necessary anymore, because you can just wait it out instead, and God'll forget that you did them in the first place? That doesn't wash with me. Not to mention that it's completely un-Biblical as well. Methinks that it was concieved to give false hope to people.

Because of this, and along with transubstantiation and the honouring of Mary and the Pope, I have real issues with the Catholic Church's teachings. Disclaimer: Of course, not all Catholics are in the wrong, and certainly not all CofE Christians are in the right; there's rogues and rebels in every group of people. :eek:

I'm also of the opinion that the heirarchy of Angels is more Christian mythology. I know that Gabriel and Michael are considered Archangels (and I'm pretty sure that that word comes straight from the Greek), but the dictionary definition (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=archangels) of that is just "high-ranking". Given how much leg-work these two have done, I'd assume that they are in fact two much more high-ranking Angels then that heirarchy indicates.

re. the location of Heaven & Hell... Revelation 21:1,2 runs as follows: Old Heaven & Earth and the sea disappears. New Heaven & Earth appears. New Jerusalem comes down from Heaven.

Then verse 3 says that (NLT) "God's home is now among His people! He will live with them, and they will be His people. God Himself will be with them. I understand this to mean that Heaven, as I will see it, will be on this Earth; this plane of existence. Probably a good thing; I don't wanna get lost.

I'm not interested in the religion as a whole (as in all the details), but having lived in a society where Christian mythology (my word, sorry, not meant to be offensive) permeates much of our entertainment and daily life, I have a few questions I'd really appreciate answered:). Brief, summarising explanations would serve best rather than exhaustive historical and biblical references. And thank you very much if you take the time to help me on this!

1) All the people who lived and died before Christ walked the Earth...did they automatically go to hell? Even if they were good people? Even if they would have accepted Christ if they knew it was a possibility? It's something I've always wondered.

2) I remember reading about the levels of various heavenly beings, cherubim and so on...do those categories still exist anyway as part of the Christian belief system? How about demonic creatures? If they are no longer part of the regular beliefs, when were they phased out and why?

3) What is hell really supposed to be like? (what have you been taught it is?)

4) What is heaven really supposed to be like? (ditto)

5) Is there still a belief in Purgatory? What is that supposed to be? And are there any other levels between heaven and hell? Is that a sect-specific thing?

6) On the topic of heaven and hell...where are they? Like...would they be in different dimensions? Or out in space? What are the ideas on that? And do you ever get out of them and just...die? I mean...is there no recycling of souls or anything? And if hell has way more souls...is there some sort of imbalance?

7) I almost forgot my biggest question. Do Christians still believe in the Devil? Some details on that would be most appreciated!


Not being a christian I have studied this from the outside, anthropological perspective...here's what I think.

1) Yes. God just made them beg forgiveness in his presence according to the theological stand point of christianity.

2) The levels of "god's soldiers" were phased out shortly after the Renaissance as part of a way to see the kingdom of heaven as a place of humanity, not humanity and god's better creatures.

3) Hell is pretty much you own conception. Most people follow the ideas presented in Dante's Inferno as being an accurate depiction though. Those are the ideas clergy tend to lean towards (although they rarely admit it).

4) Heaven, according to christians, is supposed to be the best. That's as far as it goes really. Maybe clouds and white light and all that hub-bub but that is mostly speculation. Most christians say they don't know.

5) Purgatory was out sourced by a pope early in the 1900's. Forget about it.

6) Heaven and hell are kinda of extra-dimensional places you can only get to when you die. There is no specific location, although many believe that idea of hell being hot and below is from volcanic activity and heaven is in the clouds due to the inability of early christians to get there.

7) Christians still believe in the devil.

Now, again, I think all this is a ridiculous load of bunk unsupported by anything but dogma...but there's your answer.