NationStates Jolt Archive

There's been all this boring rubbish on the news about NASA's space shuttle. Europe's also getting in on the act with the ESA, kinda like two teenage boys comparing the size of their penises. All I wonder is what's the point in the whole thing? It seems to me like we're throwing billions into something that does nothing but satisfy a few scientist's egos. The UK is a partner nation in the ESA and I wish we'd just take our money and put it into something more useful. Stuff like sorting world hunger, our health service, that kind of thing. I can't really see any merits in having a spaace program.

You do not see the merits of clean, efficient solar energy or the potential benefit of off-world colonization to reduce overpopulation?

Have you ever heard the story about what Sparta did when their soldiers returned from war and found many bastard children and poor and homeless people? They put them all on boats, sent them to Mediterranean isles. That's what we're doing!!! Once we find a suitable place, we're gonna fix earth's homeless and hungry problem!!!

My modest proposal

There's been all this boring rubbish on the news about NASA's space shuttle. Europe's also getting in on the act with the ESA, kinda like two teenage boys comparing the size of their penises. All I wonder is what's the point in the whole thing? It seems to me like we're throwing billions into something that does nothing but satisfy a few scientist's egos. The UK is a partner nation in the ESA and I wish we'd just take our money and put it into something more useful. Stuff like sorting world hunger, our health service, that kind of thing. I can't really see any merits in having a spaace program.

Well, first off all i must say you are a total ass in your head... :mad:
A lot of the things that are the "offspring" from space travel are later used in other products...
Secondly, sooner or later, if we continue with the whole space thing we will be abel to live on other planets when we fuck this one up, this wil be in 200 years or so, but stil its worth it...
Was it dumb of the people who explored to build ships and find america?
You are an idiot....................................

Have you ever heard the story about what Sparta did when their soldiers returned from war and found many bastard children and poor and homeless people? They put them all on boats, sent them to Mediterranean isles. That's what we're doing!!! Once we find a suitable place, we're gonna fix earth's homeless and hungry problem!!!

My modest proposal

I thought that was the Romans, in the pre-Imperial days?
NB: The Spartans never adopted currency. They didn't have poor people. Everything was divided by the state.

I thought that was the Romans, in the pre-Imperial days?
NB: The Spartans never adopted currency. They didn't have poor people. Everything was divided by the state.

I believe for a few years, bastard helot children who had become young adults were considered low class and forced to live in 'poor' conditions. I know it was the Spartans b/c it was one of the major parts of Early Greek Expansion. This actually becaame a trend for awhile.

Well, first off all i must say you are a total ass in your head... :mad:
A lot of the things that are the "offspring" from space travel are later used in other products...
Secondly, sooner or later, if we continue with the whole space thing we will be abel to live on other planets when we fuck this one up, this wil be in 200 years or so, but stil its worth it...
Was it dumb of the people who explored to build ships and find america?
You are an idiot....................................

Please. Do not flame on these forums. If you have a point, try being polite about it. It makes more sense that way.

No, space travel isn't a waste of money, although war is.

Earth is running out of resources. The Solar System (and beyond) have all the resources we could use for the next 5000 years or so.

There's been all this boring rubbish on the news about NASA's space shuttle. Europe's also getting in on the act with the ESA, kinda like two teenage boys comparing the size of their penises. All I wonder is what's the point in the whole thing? It seems to me like we're throwing billions into something that does nothing but satisfy a few scientist's egos. The UK is a partner nation in the ESA and I wish we'd just take our money and put it into something more useful. Stuff like sorting world hunger, our health service, that kind of thing. I can't really see any merits in having a spaace program.

If you can't see any merits in having a space program, then you are blind.

For one, the health service you speak of improving wouldn't be where it is today without the space program. And world hunger and poverty would only be increased by removing our presence in space; how could we ever predict dangerous weather patterns as we do now without satellites? I hope you don't enjoy Sky's satellite TV service, or any other satellite service, as you won't enjoy them for much longer after we abandon a space program.

And these are but a fraction of the advancements we have made because of our progress in space.

In response to the title alone, space travel is probably not much good, but if we do useful stuff when we get there (or land on the next rock over) then that's good.

Which is why the UK sounding-rocket program (only very recently terminated) was very valuable to microgravity/atmospheric research, even though it wasn't anywhere near orbital (or indeed manned).

There's been all this boring rubbish on the news about NASA's space shuttle. Europe's also getting in on the act with the ESA, kinda like two teenage boys comparing the size of their penises. All I wonder is what's the point in the whole thing? It seems to me like we're throwing billions into something that does nothing but satisfy a few scientist's egos. The UK is a partner nation in the ESA and I wish we'd just take our money and put it into something more useful. Stuff like sorting world hunger, our health service, that kind of thing. I can't really see any merits in having a spaace program.
So you think sattelite communication for stuff like cellphones, TV, internet, GPS/Gallileo etc...are useless?

recreationally, yes I think it's a waste of time. I don't really see the point in going 'round the moon for the holidays. Plus, space creeps me out, I mean if something goes wrong, we'll all implode in on ourselves. Freaky.

But for sake of exploration, then YAY FOR SPACE.

Space travel is currently inefficiently using the money it has with the current lack of drive and unified political will that was very apparent back in the 60s and 70s.

I mean, back then, there were clear cut goals and the drive to achieve them whatever the cause, even if the primary reason was so that the US could trump the Soviets. You have a goal, you go for it. Need more money? No problem. Need the latest gear and tech? Just ask and the industry will provide.

Nowadays its like this. Need money? No way, I'm using it to build me a better nuke. Want better tech? Go away, you're not worth it for my portfolio. Once the Soviet Union stopped trying to do a space one upmanship, the US abandoned most of their bigger dreams for space.

I mean, back then, there were clear cut goals and the drive to achieve them whatever the cause, even if the primary reason was so that the US could trump the Soviets. You have a goal, you go for it. Need more money? No problem. Need the latest gear and tech? Just ask and the industry will provide.



Its just now the goals are hard to decide. Then: lets get of of orbit. Now: where do we go?

Its just now the goals are hard to decide. Then: lets get of of orbit. Now: where do we go?

Its not so much of where do we go as in "I've got better places to spend my money." or "Its not glamorous anymore, and I won't be voted in again if I support it. Lets go declare war on illegal substances instead."

Political malarky can always be counted to gum up any sort of works.

Putting people into space accomplishes virtually nothing. It costs more to put a person into space than a robotic device, humans in space suffer slow deterioration of their health, and they face severe risks to their lives for little to no benefit for mankind.

The unmanned space program, on the other hand, is safe, returns more usefull data, is cheap by comparison, and seems to perform incredibly well. Remember those two robotic rovers that the US sent to Mars several hundred days ago? They're still transmiting data back to us.

Putting people into space accomplishes virtually nothing.


Only if you send them to do what robots can do. But so far as I know, robots can't colonize planetoids yet.

Well, first off all i must say you are a total ass in your head... :mad:
A lot of the things that are the "offspring" from space travel are later used in other products...
Secondly, sooner or later, if we continue with the whole space thing we will be abel to live on other planets when we fuck this one up, this wil be in 200 years or so, but stil its worth it...
Was it dumb of the people who explored to build ships and find america?
You are an idiot....................................

You're very close to getting yourself a warning, InC_est_BOB. Don't push it any more than you have. Keep the insults out of your thread.


~The Modified Freedom Forces of Euroslavia
Nationstates Forum Moderator~

I am wondering if we can't do away with overpopulation in the first place, rather than have to invest in costly off-world terraforming and exploration? Because if you consider it now, it's really REALLY REALLY expensive to send someone into space. The only people who'd be able to AFFORD to move offplanet are really incredibly rich dudes like that Tito billionaire guy. That wouldn't solve our problems, that'd just increase the divide between the rich and the poor by several billion kilometres. Or light-years. And to move large numbers of poor folks for free? Who's gonna pay for that? The Government? The generosity of the wealthy? Pff...

The rats, fleeing the sinking vessel...

But if we work NOW to help educate people, promote safe sex and birth control, use family planning, and increase the standard of living so that people realise that it'd be good to keep the population down, then maybe we won't HAVE to resort to costly, expensive, and time-consuming space colonisation.

Hell, the earth will be consumed by the sun in about 5 billion years. Howsabout we work on not destroying it and ourselves and improving human life on this planet, before we go gallivanting off into the big black and ruin another one? We've got plenty of time...

@~Freebs

Only if you send them to do what robots can do. But so far as I know, robots can't colonize planetoids yet.
Humans can't colonize planetoids yet either. Until we can develop technology that can safely and efficiently deliver people to planets that are capable of supporting life, and until we can find those planets, (both tasks that can be accomplished with unmanned vehicles) we shouldn't waste time and risk lives with manned space travel.

There's been all this boring rubbish on the news about NASA's space shuttle. Europe's also getting in on the act with the ESA, kinda like two teenage boys comparing the size of their penises. All I wonder is what's the point in the whole thing? It seems to me like we're throwing billions into something that does nothing but satisfy a few scientist's egos. The UK is a partner nation in the ESA and I wish we'd just take our money and put it into something more useful. Stuff like sorting world hunger, our health service, that kind of thing. I can't really see any merits in having a spaace program.
Only in the sense that sending Christopher Columbus to explore the world was a waste of money. Don't be so short sighted. I can't imagine anything that is more worthwile.

"Is space travel just a waste of money?"

No.

Next question, please!

Humans can't colonize planetoids yet either. Until we can develop technology that can safely and efficiently deliver people to planets that are capable of supporting life, and until we can find those planets, (both tasks that can be accomplished with unmanned vehicles) we shouldn't waste time and risk lives with manned space travel.

I think you'll find that all astronauts, including those who died, would argue against your suggestion that it's a 'waste'.

What the hell is the point of exploration if we send robots to do it for us? So that we can look at pictures from our safe little cushioned rooms? Cowards, the lot of you! I'd give anything to get up there and see it all for myself.

I think you'll find that all astronauts, including those who died, would argue against your suggestion that it's a 'waste'.

What the hell is the point of exploration if we send robots to do it for us? So that we can look at pictures from our safe little cushioned rooms? Cowards, the lot of you! I'd give anything to get up there and see it all for myself.
The robots gather more data and do a better job of exploring than humans can. The point of exploration is not to send some guy to walk a hundred yards on a distant planet then take him back home, it's to learn about the conditions on that planet, the resources available there, the possibility of one day building collonies on it. Robots do that better. The robotic rovers on Mars are still sending back data like 500 days after they landed. A manned mission couldn't do that.

Since when is using the proper tool to accomplish a task an act of cowardice? Space exploration isn't an extreme sport, it's a job.

The robots gather more data and do a better job of exploring than humans can. The point of exploration is not to send some guy to walk a hundred yards on a distant planet then take him back home, it's to learn about the conditions on that planet, the resources available there, the possibility of one day building collonies on it. Robots do that better. The robotic rovers on Mars are still sending back data like 500 days after they landed. A manned mission couldn't do that.

Since when is using the proper tool to accomplish a task an act of cowardice? Space exploration isn't an extreme sport, it's a job.

No it's not. Space exploration is about human discovery and exploration, not robot discovery and exploration. If the entire world looks upon these things with as cold a view as you do, I want out now. It's a spirit of adventure which drives humanity, not a spirit of "well, it's cheaper to send robots up there, and it's safer for me to just sit down here and hope nothing goes wrong...". Or at least, it used to be. People such as yourselves have forgotten the spirit of adventure and innovation that our predecessors used to get us where we are, and that makes me depressed.

how many of you responders have actually studied
cosmology or even space travel?
paranoia seems to run deep within this forum.
h.g.wells wrote about space travel a century ago.
in order to actually understand our species, even
socially, we need to find our place in the universe.
things happen every day that most know nothing of;
it is our next evolutionary step to seek to travel in space.

I think you'll find that all astronauts, including those who died, would argue against your suggestion that it's a 'waste'.you should stop using "those who died" in your debate...

Its like Chicken-hawk politicians using "those who died" (soldiers) to keep the War going.

What you should be waging war on, then, should be the entire idea of "vacations". Space vacation is like a vacation to the Maldives, like a vacation to France. I don't see anything wrong with it.

What you should be waging war on, then, should be the entire idea of "vacations". Space vacation is like a vacation to the Maldives, like a vacation to France. I don't see anything wrong with it.It does not cost $20 Millions to go to france.

Humans are naturally driven to explore thier surroundings...to assess their options of food, habitable environments, and energy sources...looking to space and the possiblities that lie therein, we increase our chances for survival by allowing us to not overpopulate and exhaust this planet's resources

No it's not. Space exploration is about human discovery and exploration, not robot discovery and exploration. If the entire world looks upon these things with as cold a view as you do, I want out now. It's a spirit of adventure which drives humanity, not a spirit of "well, it's cheaper to send robots up there, and it's safer for me to just sit down here and hope nothing goes wrong...". Or at least, it used to be. People such as yourselves have forgotten the spirit of adventure and innovation that our predecessors used to get us where we are, and that makes me depressed.

Are you really that ignorant? We do not have the technology yet to do a manned mission to someplace as far away as Mars. Also we built the robots so technically we are using them as a tool for human exploration.

I doubt Christopher Columbus could have swam across the entire Atlantic ocean to explore. He had ships which are manmade tools.

But if we work NOW to help educate people, promote safe sex and birth control, use family planning, and increase the standard of living so that people realise that it'd be good to keep the population down, then maybe we won't HAVE to resort to costly, expensive, and time-consuming space colonisation.

Hell, the earth will be consumed by the sun in about 5 billion years. Howsabout we work on not destroying it and ourselves and improving human life on this planet, before we go gallivanting off into the big black and ruin another one? We've got plenty of time...




The problem with this theory is that the damage is already done, and it's irreversible. within 50 years, we will have run out of habitable space (see the movie Soylent Green to see what this looks like)

I also want to mention that the logistics of educating almost 7 billion people about ANYTHING are mind boggling, and would end up being just as expensive as colonizing the moon.

We can't save Earth, but we can save ourselves. And to do that, we need to stop looking at each other, and start looking toward the vast unknown that is the Milky Way Galaxy.

hmm...... colonize another planet after we deplete and/or destroy this one? what gives us the right? If there is other life out there, our species would very soon be known as the "human infestation".

While I do see potential benefits from space exploration, at this point I believe our money would be better spent solving the problems we have on this planet now. For instance, the money could easily solve the world hunger problem - it's pretty pathetic that we (meaning all countries together) have the resources to feed everyone and yet we allow thousands to die of starvation daily. Then there's medical care and etc. :(

Earth is running out of resources. The Solar System (and beyond) have all the resources we could use for the next 5000 years or so.

The earth is not running out of resources, the people that sell them just want you to think it is. However, since I agree with the continuation of space exploration, and the almost certain discovery of never before seen resources we'll jump on the running out of resources bandwagon too, because it sounds sooo desperate!

hmm...... colonize another planet after we deplete and/or destroy this one? what gives us the right? If there is other life out there, our species would very soon be known as the "human infestation".

While I do see potential benefits from space exploration, at this point I believe our money would be better spent solving the problems we have on this planet now. For instance, the money could easily solve the world hunger problem - it's pretty pathetic that we (meaning all countries together) have the resources to feed everyone and yet we allow thousands to die of starvation daily. Then there's medical care and etc. :(

Ahh, to be so purely ideological and well intentioned again. What I would give to turn back time just to re-live the simplicity of it all. You should write this down and put it in a safe place to read many many years from now. :)

There's been all this boring rubbish on the news about NASA's space shuttle. Europe's also getting in on the act with the ESA, kinda like two teenage boys comparing the size of their penises. All I wonder is what's the point in the whole thing? It seems to me like we're throwing billions into something that does nothing but satisfy a few scientist's egos. The UK is a partner nation in the ESA and I wish we'd just take our money and put it into something more useful. Stuff like sorting world hunger, our health service, that kind of thing. I can't really see any merits in having a spaace program.

Many missions to space have been of unsurpassed scientific discovery. Because of space exploration we have satilite communication technoligy, greater understanding of the physical universe, satalites with numerius military and civilion purposes. To fail to see the benefits is to admit to having a selective memory and be quite sort-sighted. So the space programs having a few hiccups, such things happen, it will pick up again. ;)

Space travel for purposes like trying to colonize other planets is so completely, impossibly stupid given the cost and time of sending people up. The people at NASA would probably laugh at anyone that thinks offworld colonization will be a viable solution to any problems we have now in the time it would take for them to escalate. The same thing goes for off-world resourcing; besides the moon containing He3 which may be useful in fusion, it is many orders of magnitude cheaper just to dig up resources here. Space research and utility however is incredibly useful, as evidenced by the countless amazing things that have come out of the space programs.

The true final frontier isn't outer space (or the ocean); its the human mind. We are slowly approaching the day where we can communicate directly to computers with our mind, and computers are becoming powerful enough to recreate a convincing virtual reality. People may end up practically living in fantasy worlds created digitally, exploring new artforms unimagined by previous generations limited to instruments and paintbrushes and physics.

The real problem is trying to keep this planet in any functional condition, something many groups underestimate or brush aside. We're going to have to deal with this someday, and the sooner we start, the easier it will be.

Liverbreath']Ahh, to be so purely ideological and well intentioned again. What I would give to turn back time just to re-live the simplicity of it all. You should write this down and put it in a safe place to read many many years from now. :)


LOL I'm already almost 40 - how many years should I wait? :D

LOL I'm already almost 40 - how many years should I wait? :D
It's a noble sentiment, but the people you want to save can't be saved. They're impoverished because of the structure of their society, and it's inability to cope with industrial food. Their starving for their inability to manage their own reproduction as much as their inability to obtain enough food. That's the equilibrium they're behavior is locking them into. Add more food, get more people barely subsisting.

In the the centuries that follow, if humanity survives it will be in large part because we got off this rock. And if our species succeeds in that endevour, then most of the people who ever will live probably will be born somewhere other than earth. The ONLY thing that will be important to them in the story of who they are, are those who took the first steps away from our cradle. Anything else, is a diversion from the end game. And if we don't get off this rock, ultimately, our decendants will be doomed anyway.

And blah blah accurate maps, accurate weather, world wide communications, blah blah.

It does not cost $20 Millions to go to france.

Depends on how you travel. :D

Its not really a waste of money well maybe it is because what changed in space before the one that crashed Columbia

No it's not. Space exploration is about human discovery and exploration, not robot discovery and exploration. If the entire world looks upon these things with as cold a view as you do, I want out now. It's a spirit of adventure which drives humanity, not a spirit of "well, it's cheaper to send robots up there, and it's safer for me to just sit down here and hope nothing goes wrong...". Or at least, it used to be. People such as yourselves have forgotten the spirit of adventure and innovation that our predecessors used to get us where we are, and that makes me depressed.
So you'd rather do the job half-assed because it's emotionally gratifying than do the job properly and speed up the rate of progress for humanity? Personally I think it's people like you who cause many of the world's problems.

LOL I'm already almost 40 - how many years should I wait? :D

If you are almost 40 and still believe the same, you are probably safe to say you are set in your ways.
In a way, you have my admiration. After an extended stint in the military and many years in law enforcement, I was unable to hold those basic values as a feasable possibility for our future. I believe the nature of man is far to sinister to allow the luxury.

Are you really that ignorant? We do not have the technology yet to do a manned mission to someplace as far away as Mars. Also we built the robots so technically we are using them as a tool for human exploration.

I doubt Christopher Columbus could have swam across the entire Atlantic ocean to explore. He had ships which are manmade tools.


We don't have the technology?

http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/mars/mars_crew.html
http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/russia_mars_040510.html
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn4551

The Saturn 5 rockets that sent our apollo missions to the moon were also manmade tools. I don't think anyone is suggesting that we should attempt to "swim" to mars.

true, some people believe that we have depleted our resources
and are now looking to space to find another habitable planet.

but, the biggest issue facing scientists today is the t.o.e
(theory of everything)

einstein, penrose, feynman...many scientists have longed to
find a theory that closes the gap between the neurons firing
in our minds and the way gravitation bends space.

space exploration involves a plethora of avenues we are using
to explain the simple fundamentals of existence.

there are times when the reality of a situation is much more
interesting than any fantasy we could concoct.

Microwave oven technology was invented because of technological advancements stemming from the space race. In my opinion, that alone makes the endeavor worthwhile.

For the moment, yes, it's pretty pointless.

Its expensive and aliens could bring dangers to Earth and sickness to Earth, but satellites and stuff helping US is good.... or finding a power for us to go to in 5 billion years when the sun dies....

Microwave oven technology was invented because of technological advancements stemming from the space race. In my opinion, that alone makes the endeavor worthwhile.
I'm pretty sure it was radar that spawned the microwave oven. Apparently the inventor had a chocolate bar in his pocket and walked in front of a powerfull radar antenna. He then noticed that the chocolate had melted. In fact, the first commercial microwave oven was the Amana Radarrange. It had radar right in the name.