NationStates Jolt Archive

I like Ride of the Valkries as a tune. I first heard it in Apocalypse Now, and I find it a brilliant war tune. However, my friend on msn just said that by listening to Ride of the Valkyries (Nothing else mind you by Wagner), that I am therefore a racist.

Irregardless of everything else (And I don't see myself as racist), does listening to that song mean I am a racist?

Wagner was an anti-semitist. This doesn't come through in his music. It's not important. Even if it was intrinsically racist, listening to it wouldn't make you racist.

No, of course not. It means you like the music. I like the Marsellaise (sp?) but it doesn't make me French.

It's just Hitler liked Wagner and there's more to it besides, although someone else is probably better positioned to explain.

The Israeli government doesn't see it that way: they banned Barenboim's Arab-Israeli orchestra from playing Wagner in Jerusalem.

Even though Wagner's music was favoured by the Nazi government in Germany, and even though the largest part of Richard Wagner's family (who are still involved in the yearly Wagner festival in Bayreuth) were Nazi supporters until well after the end of that regime, I wouldn't say that liking the music links you in any way to any racists.

The Nazis also integrated Drawin's theory of evolution into their ideology, but that doesn't make the whole theory racist. They admired and copied classical architecture, that doesn't make columns racist.
To say that listening to a neutral piece of music that wasn't writen with any political intention makes you racist is a very stereotype remark indeed.

I like Ride of the Valkries as a tune. I first heard it in Apocalypse Now, and I find it a brilliant war tune. However, my friend on msn just said that by listening to Ride of the Valkyries (Nothing else mind you by Wagner), that I am therefore a racist.

Irregardless of everything else (And I don't see myself as racist), does listening to that song mean I am a racist?


Tell your friend hes an idiot.

Ive read Mine Kampf, does that make me a nazi?

No it doesnt.

Ive read the bible too...that doesnt make me a christian, either.

The Israeli government doesn't see it that way: they banned Barenboim's Arab-Israeli orchestra from playing Wagner in Jerusalem.

They tend to be a bit paranoid on issues like that. Well.. their decision. The Israeli government is not an authority that can proclaim what is racist and what isn't (outside Israel).

In the same way that listening to NWA makes you black.

Wagner was an anti-semite. I read somewhere years ago that whenever he conducted music by a Jewish composer, he would take off his gloves afterwards and throw them away. Don't know how true that is though.

I read a neo-nazi forum for a laugh at the ignorance displayed there. That certainly doesn't make me a nazi. Listening to a song doesn't make you racist either.

I like Ride of the Valkries as a tune. I first heard it in Apocalypse Now, and I find it a brilliant war tune. However, my friend on msn just said that by listening to Ride of the Valkyries (Nothing else mind you by Wagner), that I am therefore a racist.

Irregardless of everything else (And I don't see myself as racist), does listening to that song mean I am a racist?

Absolutely not. I don't care if you bought a version of every one of Wager's compositions ever played, it still wouldn't make you a racist.

I enjoy some Wagner, and my partner loves it. I can't stress how much he loves Wagner ('s music) enough. We sat and watched the Ring Cycle when it was on BBC2 a while back, he adores it. He is neither racist, nor an anti-semite, and neither am I.

There is an episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm that addresses this particular view point. Larry is humming a bit of Wagner to his wife after having relayed the story of how it came to be written (as a birthday present for Wagner's wife-he woke her up with an orchestra playing it) and some guy storms up to him and accuses him of being a 'self-hating jew'. The payoff to the episode is brilliant.

Anyway, ignore your friend. Tell him (or her) that liking Wagner doesn't make you racist, but thinking that liking Wagner makes you racist, makes you an idiot :)

Blessings
Cyber

That is stupid.
Say fine your a Racist then slap the Bitch!

Wagner is one of my favourite composers. Superb music. I'm very fond of it, but I am not anti-semitic or racist.

Ford was also anti-semetic. Does that make everyone who drives a Ford a racist?

Why do people associate Wagner with racism? Oh yeah Hitler liked his music. And what if George Bush likes to watch Oprah, you support all his policies when you like to watch it too? How stupid.

Bump

I have never heard anything so imbecilic in my life. Listening to instrumental music cannot make you a racist. Find new friends, stat.

I like Ride of the Valkries as a tune.
I'm surprised that no one caught it yet, Its not "Ride of the Valkyries", its "Flight of the Valkyries"

Irregardless of everything else (And I don't see myself as racist), does listening to that song mean I am a racist?Nah. Wagner was Hitler's favorite composer, so if you listen to it because of that, you would be a racist. Since you listen to it because you liked the tune when you heard it in Apocalypse now, there's no reason you should be considered racist.

Why do people associate Wagner with racism? Oh yeah Hitler liked his music. And what if George Bush likes to watch Oprah, you support all his policies when you like to watch it too? How stupid.You can't compare the two. The reason why it's linked to racism is because Hitler loved instrumentalizing it for his propaganda.

I'm surprised that no one caught it yet, Its not "Ride of the Valkyries", its "Flight of the Valkyries"


It is...?

*Is suitably embarresed*

I like Ride of the Valkries as a tune. I first heard it in Apocalypse Now, and I find it a brilliant war tune. However, my friend on msn just said that by listening to Ride of the Valkyries (Nothing else mind you by Wagner), that I am therefore a racist.

Irregardless of everything else (And I don't see myself as racist), does listening to that song mean I am a racist?

Listen, Wagner was a racist, given. But listening to his music wil not make you a racist, infact, there is no racist message in his music. He generally kept all his racial and political to him self. And you have to understand, back then anti-semetism was sort of the 'in thing' in Europe. So Wagner wasent really a racist by choice, he was just a product of the times, so to say.

Its true that over exposure to The Ride of the Valkyries will give you the sudden and irresistable urge to conqure Poland, but still, the music is not racist.

If your firend harrases you about this again, just inform them of their ignorance. If this presists, then just slap them, they would deserve it.

I'm surprised that no one caught it yet, Its not "Ride of the Valkyries", its "Flight of the Valkyries"
Well, no, it's "ride" http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00000AFQY/002-1974824-2268048?v=glance

Irregardless of everything else (And I don't see myself as racist), does listening to that song mean I am a racist?
No more than reading, and enjoying Shakespeare does. Or a hoste of other writers, musicians and entertainers who over the centuries have held beliefs we now consider abhorant. Now, if you went around burning crosses and firebombing synagogues while listening to Wagner, the LISTENING TO WAGNER part is still not what identifies you as a racist.

I have never heard anything so imbecilic in my life.
I have. And oddly enough, these sorts of criticisms of the people who created certain music or writings usually doesn't come from the group who these people would've discriminated against...it comes from educated, middle-class white people on our behalf :rolleyes:

The Israeli government doesn't see it that way: they banned Barenboim's Arab-Israeli orchestra from playing Wagner in Jerusalem.
I think that has more to do with the link to Hilter than Wagner's own racism.

I think that has more to do with the link to Hilter than Wagner's own racism.

Actually it's because Wagner was played in concentration camps throughout Germany and Poland (because of the aforementioned reason; Hitler liked Wagner's ethnocentric and nationalistic views) that Wagner isn't (wasn't?) allowed to be played in Israel (although technically, it's more of an unofficial rule.) They just don't want to traumatize all the survivors and relatives of survivors by playing music that brings back horrific memories.

Skinny, tell your friend he's a fucking moron, and try not to doubt yourself on such matters when you know them not to be true... Don't let your mind twist itself against you.

The Israeli government doesn't see it that way: they banned Barenboim's Arab-Israeli orchestra from playing Wagner in Jerusalem.



This is outdated. The Israeli government has repealed those laws.

Listen, Wagner was a racist, given. But listening to his music wil not make you a racist, infact, there is no racist message in his music. He generally kept all his racial and political to him self. And you have to understand, back then anti-semetism was sort of the 'in thing' in Europe. So Wagner wasent really a racist by choice, he was just a product of the times, so to say.

Its true that over exposure to The Ride of the Valkyries will give you the sudden and irresistable urge to conqure Poland, but still, the music is not racist.

If your firend harrases you about this again, just inform them of their ignorance. If this presists, then just slap them, they would deserve it.


Well, to be quite honest, there are racist messages in his opera. In "The Ring of the Nibelung", which gave us "The Ride of the Valkyries", he features the hellish, greedy, and disgusting Nibelungs and it is common knowledge that to him they represented the Jewish people.

Nonetheless, there are much greater messages hailed in his operas as well: love, beauty, compassion, bravery, and justice.

It is my opinion that to love the music of Wagner is one of the best things one can do. If something so precious can come from something so vile, then I believe there is hope for the world.

Well, to be quite honest, there are racist messages in his opera. In "The Ring of the Nibelung", which gave us "The Ride of the Valkyries", he features the hellish, greedy, and disgusting Nibelungs and it is common knowledge that to him they represented the Jewish people.
Not in the legend. There wasn't much anti-semitism around when the stories themselves got started.

Listening to ride of the valkyries isnt racist. Unless you play it really loud, with the sole intent of upsetting your vietnamese neighbours. But your probly not doing that.

I like Ride of the Valkries as a tune. I first heard it in Apocalypse Now, and I find it a brilliant war tune. However, my friend on msn just said that by listening to Ride of the Valkyries (Nothing else mind you by Wagner), that I am therefore a racist.

Irregardless of everything else (And I don't see myself as racist), does listening to that song mean I am a racist?

Well, everytime I listen to Ride of the Valkyries, I feel like invading Poland...

:p

Irregardless of everything else (And I don't see myself as racist), does listening to that song mean I am a racist?I don't think so. To me, that's like saying that liking Lynyrd Skynyrd's "Sweet Home Alabama" means that I'm a racist. People who know me say I'm about as far from being racist as anyone they know.

I'm surprised that no one caught it yet, Its not "Ride of the Valkyries", its "Flight of the Valkyries"


Actually, it's "Prelude to Act III of Die Walkure".

Not in the legend. There wasn't much anti-semitism around when the stories themselves got started.


Oh, I know. But to Wagner, the composer and librettist, there were.

I like Ride of the Valkries as a tune. I first heard it in Apocalypse Now, and I find it a brilliant war tune. However, my friend on msn just said that by listening to Ride of the Valkyries (Nothing else mind you by Wagner), that I am therefore a racist.

Irregardless of everything else (And I don't see myself as racist), does listening to that song mean I am a racist?

No, that is a ridiculous statement for him to have made.

Every time I hear Wagner, I think of Bugs Bunny - "Kill the Wabbit"

I like Ride of the Valkries as a tune. I first heard it in Apocalypse Now, and I find it a brilliant war tune. However, my friend on msn just said that by listening to Ride of the Valkyries (Nothing else mind you by Wagner), that I am therefore a racist.

Irregardless of everything else (And I don't see myself as racist), does listening to that song mean I am a racist?

Well, we have the undeniable fact that Wagner was an out and out anti-semite (and despised "Jewish" music). We have the fact that his music was *intended* to be martial GERMANIC music.

All well and good. But i think we need - always - to seperate the art, from the artist*. A more contemporary example would be Ian Curtis, lead singer of Joy Division, until he hung himself. Obsessed with Nazis, very right wing, named his group after the prostitutes who serviced the SS. But, does liking "Love will tear us apart" make one a nazi? Not at all.

Which is why, by the way, one should never meet your artistic heroes. Because they might be complete and utter c*nts. Just like the music, the film, the books, and don't read any shared world view into them.

*Apart from Phil Collins, who is scum, and anyone who likes his music should be gassed.

There's nothing rascist with listening to and enjoying Wagner's music. Sure, he was an egomaniac and a bastard, but how does that set him apart from every other major composer?

On a side note, I'm not a big fan of Wagner's music, especially anything from the Ring cycle, but more on account off sheer bombastic nature... That said, playing Wagner is almost as fun as playing Saint Saens.

All well and good. But i think we need - always - to seperate the art, from the artist*. A more contemporary example would be Ian Curtis, lead singer of Joy Division, until he hung himself. Obsessed with Nazis, very right wing, named his group after the prostitutes who serviced the SS. But, does liking "Love will tear us apart" make one a nazi? Not at all.

I don't think he actually was right wing. The band name was intended as a clever play on words as far as I know and had no bearing on the political beliefs of the group.

I don't think he actually was right wing. The band name was intended as a clever play on words as far as I know and had no bearing on the political beliefs of the group.

Mmm, from what i read he was on the Imperialist edge of the Tory party - not virulent racist, admittedly, but what i (and, to be honest, most *artists*) would describe as "right wing"*

*especially at the height of punk, which was generally a left-ish leaning movement.

Why do people associate Wagner with racism?Becuase Wagner himself was racist. I love his music, despite that.

The Jewish conductor Daniel Barenboim brought Wagners music to the Israel a few years ago.

Case closed I would say. In the autumn, he will do a world tour with a orchestra of young Jews, and Arabs and Christians from different Arab countries.

Mmm, from what i read he was on the Imperialist edge of the Tory party - not virulent racist, admittedly, but what i (and, to be honest, most *artists*) would describe as "right wing"*

*especially at the height of punk, which was generally a left-ish leaning movement.

Meh. I do know that he wasn't a Nazi, though.

Meh. I do know that he wasn't a Nazi, though.

Nah, i didn't say he was, and will agree with you.

He WAS however, obsessed with Nazi imagery, his wife has said so in her biography of him.

Becuase Wagner himself was racist. I love his music, despite that.

Huh, wow, keep on believing that bullshit. He had his opinions but can't be seen as a rascist. if he was a racist, every Jew that has some critics on Arabs must be seen as a racist to.

Wagner lived for his music, not for that kind of ideas more at home with Sharon or extremist republicans.

You mix things up with Winifred Wagner who frequented the high society nazi persons. A.Hitler was a personal friend of here. She excused allways by saying that the contact was in the context of the Bayreuter Festspiele, so a higher cause, a bit like Rumsfeld friendship with Saddam in the 80ies.

Winifred Wagner can be seen as a (sillent) suporter of the regime. Altough she had lots of Jewish friends in the artistic enviroment of hers and was not rascist, she suported the Nazi movement.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winifred_Wagner

Listen, Wagner was a racist, given. But listening to his music wil not make you a racist, infact, there is no racist message in his music. He generally kept all his racial and political to him self. And you have to understand, back then anti-semetism was sort of the 'in thing' in Europe. So Wagner wasent really a racist by choice, he was just a product of the times, so to say.

Its true that over exposure to The Ride of the Valkyries will give you the sudden and irresistable urge to conqure Poland, but still, the music is not racist.

If your firend harrases you about this again, just inform them of their ignorance. If this presists, then just slap them, they would deserve it.


The Poles need regular conquering anyways, its part of their traditions and history. Poland just wouldn't be the same without an invasion or two each century.




As for listening to Wagner making a person a racist, the idea is so absurd it doesn't even dignify a logical response. Next time your friend says such a thing, just responfd with "Ho don't cry when I nut in yer eye! Trick how does it taste as it drips down your face?" It'll make just as much sense and offend logic equally as well as claiming a love of Wagners music makes you racist.

Every time I hear Wagner, I think of Bugs Bunny - "Kill the Wabbit"

Its exactly the same thing with me.

As for the Nibelungs, he implied that they were supposed to represent Jews.

I stay away from Wagner, too many failed invasions. How was I supposed to know they would adopt a scorched earth policy? And I *still* cannot catch that damn wabbit.

I am studying to be an Opera Singer, and I must say that Wagner is probably one of the best and the most influential composers of all time due to his use of leitmotifs and chromaticism. He influenced everything after him. If listening to Wagner makes you racist, then so does listening to every other kind of music that came after him, including modern music.

I get sick of idiotic liberals making these kind of claims. The thought police are out to get you!

He WAS however, obsessed with Nazi imagery.,
Head price for the biggest bullshit today. Haven't you learned at school that Richard Wagner died in 1883, so long before the start of the Nazi movement and its philosophy.

his wife has said so in her biography of him.

Enleighten the class how his wife would have knowed the nazi movement? Pure nonsense.
First wife Minna planner died in 1866.
Second wife, the daughter of Franz Liszt, Cossima died very old in 1930 and never wrote a biography.
What are you smoking? :D

,
Head price for the biggest bullshit today. Haven't you learned at school that Richard Wagner died in 1883, so long before the start of the Nazi movement and its philosophy.



Enleighten the class how his wife would have knowed the nazi movement? Pure nonsense.

If you LOOK, you will see i was talking about Ian Curtis, lead singer of Joy Division, who died in 1980. or maybe 81. I forget.

DURR, BACK OF THE CLASS :)

1. irregardless is not a word.

2. i can't believe you have to ask people on a forum if you're racist. thats the sort of thing that would fall under the category of "your own opinion."

Huh, wow, keep on believing that bullshit. He had his opinions but can't be seen as a rascist. if he was a racist, every Jew that has some critics on Arabs must be seen as a racist to.Some critics is one thing... writing essays on Anti-semitism is another. Richard Wagner was racist. He was a musical genious and composed some glorious music. Accept the fact that he was racist and that nobody is perfect, and move on.

I am a huge fan of Wagner and I'm not the least bit bothered by the fact he was racist.

If you LOOK, you will see i was talking about Ian Curtis, lead singer of Joy Division, who died in 1980. or maybe 81. I forget.

DURR, BACK OF THE CLASS :)

was not quite clear. But now you say that you ment Ian.
Well, love will tear us appart, again...lalalala

I get sick of idiotic liberals making these kind of claims. The thought police are out to get you!

WTF do liberals have to do with this sort of nonsense? In case you haven't noticed most of the true left isn't for the PC crap favored by the so-called "left" of America.

I can't beleive someone studying music hasn't been exposed to the radical left enough to know that, musicians are normally considerably left of center, especially on college campuses.

Oh.... and listening to modern "classical" music (a confusing term for anyone who's studied music history), is likely to give anyone a headache... Rascism nothing... Serialism is demonic!

I hate Wagner like a Christian fundamentalist hates the Marquis de Sade. I've never heard his music and I don't care to. Now that I know it appears in Apocalypse Now, I will avoid seeing that movie. I'll take the Internationale in Hebrew anyday, or Chumbawamba's The Day the Nazi Died.

I hate Wagner like a Christian fundamentalist hates the Marquis de Sade. I've never heard his music and I don't care to. Now that I know it appears in Apocalypse Now, I will avoid seeing that movie.


Why? Seperate the man's music from his politics. He was a musical genious (as long as you have a thing for the loud and bombastic) and his opera's are masterworks.

I hate Wagner like a Christian fundamentalist hates the Marquis de Sade. I've never heard his music and I don't care to. Now that I know it appears in Apocalypse Now, I will avoid seeing that movie. I'll take the Internationale in Hebrew anyday, or Chumbawamba's The Day the Nazi Died.

o.O

I hate Wagner like a Christian fundamentalist hates the Marquis de Sade. I've never heard his music and I don't care to. Now that I know it appears in Apocalypse Now, I will avoid seeing that movie. I'll take the Internationale in Hebrew anyday, or Chumbawamba's The Day the Nazi Died.Congratulations. You are an idiot.

Congratulations. You are an idiot.

What can I say? I oppose racism.

What can I say? I oppose racism.

Seperate the man from his music... I oppose jackassdom, but I still listen to Beethoven, who was a jackass first degree.

What can I say? I oppose racism.What does racism have to do with apreciating Wagner's music or Francis Ford Coppola's wonderfull film?

Personally, I find Wagner and most Germanic opera to be too...overbearing. However, I can agree that the man was a musical genious. As much as I don't like much of his work, I love to drive to Ride of the Valkyrie, and Elsa's Procession to the Cathedral is beautiful. In truth, most Germanic operas are strongly influenced by mythology and nationalism. Wagner was not exempt from this, and embraced it to create some of the most important music in world history.

Enjoying Wagnarian opera does not make you racist or anti-semetic. It makes you a music appreciator. Agreeing with Wagners politics and social ideas, on the other hand...

Why do so many people spell genius as 'genious' ? Is that an American spelling of it?

I like cotton shirts.....oh shit now im a racist and pro slavery now... :rolleyes:

Why do so many people spell genius as 'genious' ? Is that an American spelling of it?

Nope, it's incorrect everywhere. Presumably it's common simply because more words end in "ious" than in "ius." (The word "ingenious" might also be a factor in the confusion.)

Oh, and of course liking Wagner's music doesn't make one racist. Duh.

I'm surprised that no one caught it yet, Its not "Ride of the Valkyries", its "Flight of the Valkyries"
it's ride of the valkyries and flight of the bumble bee :)

unless you want some odd combination of the two.

In the same way that listening to NWA makes you black.
It doesn't?! Damn!

Strangely enough I remember Wagner from the flying toasters screen saver...

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