NationStates Jolt Archive

Or does our technology Civilize us....take away computers, TV's, phones and transportation how do we not become small warring tribes trying to survive?

Now we have to get our own food to feed our families..the law is now dictated within a certain area (no way of communicating unless you plan to travel to get your message to someone). Were in competition with our neighbors unless we band together and thoose who might take things by force band together as well.

For thoose who think they'd try to be peaceful eventually your going to have to defend yourself and your family from unsavory types brought on by this calamity.

We need laws to keep us in line...we need religion to help us cope and technology to make life lfe easier. How are we any different other than knowing more per say than our ancestors.

Or do we just live in better cages than they did.....

We're in decline, that's for sure. But I guess I'm just a natural pessimist :D



Edit: ....SOMEONE FIX MY TITLE!!!!

Are we civilized?


Shit... We ain't even civil.

Well if you take away everything all of a sudden, then it would be a massive state of anarchy.

Once the food supplies dwindle, people running home to their families instead of shipping food to cities, people will begin killing each other for food.

Once the police are disorganized and corrupt their access to weaponry, they will use that power to secure their own lives and family.

Basically it'll be something like "War of the Worlds" where the guy lost his van to the mob because everyone was desperate.

We aren't civilized. We say people hunt animals for "sport", but other animals kill. It's like saying we make animals expire, but predators murder other animals. We show sympathy to killers by offering a quick death instead of life with your new boyfriend(for the men spending life with sex-deprived gorrillas.) We show no mercy for animals that simply bite. We think of ourselves as the only ones with soles, that can think and feel. Some religious people go further by saying all animals go to hell. Plus, we destroy the environment. If anything, a wolfpack forms better civilization than a city.

Or does our technology Civilize us....take away computers, TV's, phones and transportation how do we not become small warring tribes trying to survive?

Now we have to get our own food to feed our families..the law is now dictated within a certain area (no way of communicating unless you plan to travel to get your message to someone). Were in competition with our neighbors unless we band together and thoose who might take things by force band together as well.

For thoose who think they'd try to be peaceful eventually your going to have to defend yourself and your family from unsavory types brought on by this calamity.

We need laws to keep us in line...we need religion to help us cope and technology to make life lfe easier. How are we any different other than knowing more per say than our ancestors.

Or do we just live in better cages than they did.....
Depends what you mean by civilised. If you mean a lack of 'dog eat dog' and 'aggression', then we never have been civilised. Is there some reason why when tribes war with sticks and stones it is 'uncivilised' but when nation States do it with machine guns and smart bombs, it isnt uncivilised.

We've never quit tribal war, it just happens that our tribes are a lot bigger...

We aren't civilized. We say people hunt animals for "sport", but other animals kill. It's like saying we make animals expire, but predators murder other animals. We show sympathy to killers by offering a quick death instead of life with your new boyfriend(for the men spending life with sex-deprived gorrillas.) We show no mercy for animals that simply bite. We think of ourselves as the only ones with soles, that can think and feel. Some religious people go further by saying all animals go to hell. Plus, we destroy the environment. If anything, a wolfpack forms better civilization than a city.

I would kill you for a good cheeseburger - and I have two soles.

It's more than just the technology, it's the fact that we've grown up in a fairly ordered world. Civilization is more than technology, it's the social framework we have created. Perhaps a more notable question would be, "would we lose our civilized attitude if we were separated from civilization?" A question asked by Conrad's "Heart of Darkness" and Coppola's "Apocalypse Now."

Or does our technology Civilize us....take away computers, TV's, phones and transportation how do we not become small warring tribes trying to survive?

Now we have to get our own food to feed our families..the law is now dictated within a certain area (no way of communicating unless you plan to travel to get your message to someone). Were in competition with our neighbors unless we band together and thoose who might take things by force band together as well.

For thoose who think they'd try to be peaceful eventually your going to have to defend yourself and your family from unsavory types brought on by this calamity.

We need laws to keep us in line...we need religion to help us cope and technology to make life lfe easier. How are we any different other than knowing more per say than our ancestors.

Or do we just live in better cages than they did.....

I'd say there are a few among us who would not degenerate into warring savages should TV's and refridgerators dissapear. I for one would get some like minded people together and found a commune on some arable land. A more civilized solution to a low-tech reality, methinks, than starting a tribal WWIII. Perhaps a little defense might be neccisary, but a community growing food at a surplus should be able to be slightly generous, and that should keep things from getting violent.

We do need laws. Religion is debatable. Modern technolgy, merely helpful. People lived for thousands of years before IPods and Nationstates, we can do it again. How are we different or more knowing than our ancestors? Well, technologically we know more. We also have much of the knowledge of the generations that came before us. We are genetically similar, and similar in basic needs and wants, but we're different too.

And I don't live a cage... anymore... :D

Sunsilver, I think you've got it a little backwards. I don't think technology is a civilizing influence--I think technology grows out of becoming more civilized, at least, if you define civilization as structured and ordered society. I just read an essay by Michel Foucault called "Panopticism," (which I'll be teaching this fall--my students will hate me), and one of the concepts it deals with is the notion that society makes advances, technological and otherwise, when the individual power of its members is harnessed and disciplined.

Now, he makes no value judgments about those advances, and I'll admit that some of the uses of Bentham's Panopticon, which Foucault describes and uses as the basis for the essay, give me the creeps. They threaten my sense of individuality. But the end result is, I believe, accurate--harnessing the power of the many toward a single end through use of discipline provides advancement.

Sunsilver, I think you've got it a little backwards. I don't think technology is a civilizing influence--I think technology grows out of becoming more civilized, at least, if you define civilization as structured and ordered society. I just read an essay by Michel Foucault called "Panopticism," (which I'll be teaching this fall--my students will hate me), and one of the concepts it deals with is the notion that society makes advances, technological and otherwise, when the individual power of its members is harnessed and disciplined.

Now, he makes no value judgments about those advances, and I'll admit that some of the uses of Bentham's Panopticon, which Foucault describes and uses as the basis for the essay, give me the creeps. They threaten my sense of individuality. But the end result is, I believe, accurate--harnessing the power of the many toward a single end through use of discipline provides advancement.
Guilty admission: My wallpaper/screensaver has an affectation in it to impress professors-and it's the Panopticon. I was searching for images to collect and got in a descussion about it and it was agreed that it would 'look good' if that went by while I was talking to them. It almost immediately became an ironic joy.

ON TOPIC RESPONSE:

The only crux I think that turns on is that the orginization of our society required a technology (farming techniques) in order for society to exist-but I guess that's chicken and the egg, because the cooperation needed to farm might be considered society.

But yes-we can create ideals that are greater than what we have achieved, but we can't always be measured by ideas without balancing out that curve. Are we as civil as we can concieve? Hell no. Are we one power outage away from hitting each other over the head with bones? No either.

A friend makes a study of literature that shows people working the skeleton of structure in the absense of structure. Books like In the Country of Last Things (a nation he actually had here for a while before he gave up, not wanting to get into it with you all) by Paul Auster and Blindness by Jose Saramago. Literature isn't proof of anything, just seemed related.

We are becoming more civilized.. as we accept civil rights for various issues (like homosexuality) and gradually reject tyrannical outmoded ideas (like religious fanaticism). I think we are on a good trend in general.

We have to remember that nature slides always towards chaos. If all of our neat gadgets suddenly disappeared and our whole social infrastructure was destroyed the world would be in total chaos. To preserve order, we need all those things our civilization has produced over many centuries, including the way we grow up.
If you take some cavemen of the year 30000 BC and try to make them live in a modern city, it would be a total mess because the world where they were born and grown up is so much nearer to anarchy than our civilization.

The problem with argueing (Don't know if I spelled that right...) about how civilized we are is that the word civilized itself is very subjective. The Whole arguement is really based on how you as a person define the word civilized.

Websters dictionary defines civilization as:
1 a : a relatively high level of cultural and technological development; specifically : the stage of cultural development at which writing and the keeping of written records is attained b : the culture characteristic of a particular time or place
2 : the process of becoming civilized (the definition for civilized is characteristic of a state of civilization <civilized society>; especially : characterized by taste, refinement, or restraint <a civilized way to spend the evening> )
3 a : refinement of thought, manners, or taste b : a situation of urban comfort



By the first entry in this one could easily argue that we are civilized Becuase we do have a form of writting and record keeping. We also have a relatively high level of cultural and technological advancment.Also it could be argued that we are civilized because civilization is based on the cultural characteristic of a particular time or place.So we are in essance civilized for our time and place. It Can also be argued that (going by definitions 2 and 3) compare earler times we have refined or tastes manners and thought greatly.


Of course then again if you go by definitions 2 and 3 you could also say that lately the seeming increase of ignorant and rude children (or some of my peers in school) That we are actually decreaseing our civilized mannerism. Thereby become an uncivilized peoples.


I Personally believe we remain civilized as long as we still have ability to continue to create art, Meaning any form of the arts, and think inventivelly, albeit mathimatically scientifically or what not (bad spelling yay!) We remain a civilized people. Since higher thought is based off the artistic, scientific, and mathimatical, if we still have those we will in effect remain a civilized people.

We've never quit tribal war, it just happens that our tribes are a lot bigger...

and now they actually kill significant numbers of people, rather than just being intermitent skirmishes.

We will always be civilized because we get to define what that word means. No one will ever let it mean anything that doesnt apply to humans.

you are right on the ball.

If the supermarkets stopped selling foods and the fast foods stopped getting dispatches to them of supplies then the whole society would stop funcioning as it is now. In that sense NightFillers have the power over the world cos if they go on strike then no food can be sold and the community crumbles. haha. :P And what if the water stopped?

Seriously though, if there was no way to get more food, then after about a week of it there would begin to be a slow panic growing. Where would you get the food to feed your family? You can't grow it, thats the most short sighted thing i've heard used in this discussion, its not like you put a seed in the ground and come back 2 mins later and there is your meal. It used to take days of work just to keep things clean and the family fed, and that was just at home. As soon as the petrol runs out there will be a mobbing of any vehicle left out on the road, generators would stop running soon after and there would be officially no power. Besides, what use is solar power for anything except plants in that time?

You couldn't band together with people to build your little societies, suburbs are huge nowdays, there is no land available that isnt already taken up. Which means for it you'd have to take it off someone else. You're all comfortable in your homes but as soon as the heat goes up or down you'll get uncomfortable, there will be millions who would die in the first night from the cold.

Hunting would be a waste of time for most people, lets face it, there are very few men over the age of 25 who's feet can remmember how to run and arms to throw. The old would die off, not able to support themselves, leaving the young and the adolesant. Not that they could, but they are way more stubborn.

The teenagers would end up raising a generation just younger than them and then suddenly half the women would dissapear. Without the basic health care alot of women would die in childbirth.

So our society would be left in the hands of an uneducated group of teenagers who only survive because they are passionate and brash, quite a violent existance, but it'll go on.

in other societies that have existed there has been 'civilized' behaviour
but to us now it doesn't seem so
maybe it is up for interpretation

the romans had many rules to follow and gods to appease
and they appeared civilized
but if you didn't adhere to there beliefs
i can't even bring to words the atrocities that would befall you
does that sound civilized?

but it is not much different than today in this country
religion still plays a major role even in passing legislation
and the concept that we kill persons in society that
do not adhere to our way of life
i dont' view this as civilized

but civilization is based more on how technologically advanced
a nation is rather than dealing with their internal motives
societies are rated by what level of technology they have, and
their mortality rate to determine their civilized station in the world

unfortunately, it does not deal with an individuals instincts or
reactions
and i know how strongly you feel about this issue
and there is some understanding
i simply think that there is a better explantion
ask your wife

you are right on the ball.

If the supermarkets stopped selling foods and the fast foods stopped getting dispatches to them of supplies then the whole society would stop funcioning as it is now. In that sense NightFillers have the power over the world cos if they go on strike then no food can be sold and the community crumbles. haha. :P And what if the water stopped?

Seriously though, if there was no way to get more food, then after about a week of it there would begin to be a slow panic growing. Where would you get the food to feed your family? You can't grow it, thats the most short sighted thing i've heard used in this discussion, its not like you put a seed in the ground and come back 2 mins later and there is your meal. It used to take days of work just to keep things clean and the family fed, and that was just at home. As soon as the petrol runs out there will be a mobbing of any vehicle left out on the road, generators would stop running soon after and there would be officially no power. Besides, what use is solar power for anything except plants in that time?

You couldn't band together with people to build your little societies, suburbs are huge nowdays, there is no land available that isnt already taken up. Which means for it you'd have to take it off someone else. You're all comfortable in your homes but as soon as the heat goes up or down you'll get uncomfortable, there will be millions who would die in the first night from the cold.

Hunting would be a waste of time for most people, lets face it, there are very few men over the age of 25 who's feet can remmember how to run and arms to throw. The old would die off, not able to support themselves, leaving the young and the adolesant. Not that they could, but they are way more stubborn.

The teenagers would end up raising a generation just younger than them and then suddenly half the women would dissapear. Without the basic health care alot of women would die in childbirth.

So our society would be left in the hands of an uneducated group of teenagers who only survive because they are passionate and brash, quite a violent existance, but it'll go on.

As much as an optimist as I am, I think you are probably right. Without modern technology, the world can support at most a billion people. That means 5 in 6 (probably more) would starve to death pretty quickly. While that was happening chaos would insue, the cities would burn and most government would fall or be totally ineffective.

Not enough.
We're more civilized than 1000 years ago and less than 1000 years after now.
People still die of hunger, desease and stuff, some of them live in the street, but less than 100 yeas ago.

Why do we equate "civilization" with peace and non-violence? Civilization is founded on opresseion, supression, violence, exploitation, and suffering.

One needs a whip to tame the beast.

The question does not make sense to me, of course we are civilized.

Or does our technology Civilize us....take away computers, TV's, phones and transportation how do we not become small warring tribes trying to survive?

Now we have to get our own food to feed our families..the law is now dictated within a certain area (no way of communicating unless you plan to travel to get your message to someone).


You'll have to take away the carrier pigeons from my cold dead hands first.

*Tears meat off some deceased mammal and throws it on the fire while fondling the bare breast of some random woman and plans his next assault on the neighbor's house*

I'm sorry ... what was the question?

*grunt*

Or does our technology Civilize us....take away computers, TV's, phones and transportation how do we not become small warring tribes trying to survive?

....

We need laws to keep us in line...we need religion to help us cope and technology to make life lfe easier. How are we any different other than knowing more per say than our ancestors.

Or do we just live in better cages than they did.....

touching on your cages thought, its not that they didnt live in cages, its that we have left our content beliefs of religion and gods behind and created our own cage of technology, gov't, and over excessive creation of laws, (ex. bush's bill of removing certain rights, having forgoten its name...) and at last have relized that we do infact live in a cage.

*Tears meat off some deceased mammal and throws it on the fire while fondling the bare breast of some random woman and plans his next assault on the neighbor's house*

Well when I say "house" it was only a hole in the ground covered by a piece of tarpaulin, but it was a house to us.

Or does our technology Civilize us....take away computers, TV's, phones and transportation how do we not become small warring tribes trying to survive?

Now we have to get our own food to feed our families..the law is now dictated within a certain area (no way of communicating unless you plan to travel to get your message to someone). Were in competition with our neighbors unless we band together and thoose who might take things by force band together as well.

For thoose who think they'd try to be peaceful eventually your going to have to defend yourself and your family from unsavory types brought on by this calamity.

We need laws to keep us in line...we need religion to help us cope and technology to make life lfe easier. How are we any different other than knowing more per say than our ancestors.

Or do we just live in better cages than they did.....

According to the dictionary, it appears we are. :)

Main Entry: civ·i·lize
Pronunciation: 'si-v&-"lIz
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -lized; -liz·ing
transitive senses
1 : to cause to develop out of a primitive state; especially : to bring to a technically advanced and rationally ordered stage of cultural development
2 a : EDUCATE, REFINE b : SOCIALIZE 1
intransitive senses : to acquire the customs and amenities of a civil community
- civ·i·liz·er noun

Why do we equate "civilization" with peace and non-violence? Civilization is founded on opresseion, supression, violence, exploitation, and suffering.

The main reason for this equation is that:

An advanced state of intellectual, cultural, and material development in human society, marked by progress in the arts and sciences, the extensive use of record-keeping, including writing, and the appearance of complex political and social institutions.

"We" especially come to this conclusion since "we" make the dictionary, and "we" consider that none could have possibly been civilised before us. Since the only things "we" generally remember throughout history is the warfare and bloodshed that made the borders we know today, "we" come to the simple conclusion that bloodshed should have no place in civilisation.

in other societies that have existed there has been 'civilized' behaviour
but to us now it doesn't seem so
maybe it is up for interpretation

Exactly true. Of course, a lot of the reason for this is that the vacuum that followed the fall of the Roman Empire (which at it's height had covered nearly all of Europe), created a situation whereby the heads of large families/important figures that were now out of a job vied to fill that vacuum and (essentially) formed the kind of communes/tribal communities that we have been discussing.

As such, a lot of the technological know-how and the laws that kept that particular Empire from falling apart and degenerating into the "tribal warlord" situation we are using as a benchmark for uncivilised was lost, as each of the multitude of formerly occupied groups rejected the "heathen" Roman System for their own (many not being large enough to neccesitate things such as aqueducts anyway)

In the few hundred years that then followed before the re-emergence of few rather than many warlords (those years we know little about, due to the lack of extensive record-keeping), a lot of the Roman records also passed out of knowledge (many, more than likely, have yet to be found).

Since this time, Europe has, between it's wars over who is more civilised than whom, been steadily re-learning then improving upon the technologies it has seen before. (Thus argueing merely the technological aspect of the several defintions we have seen, we are *more* civilised, but improving is an ongoing process, so that is still simply relative)

However, I would say one last thing on conclusion. There is, I believe one area that we have become much *less* civilised in - that of warfare. It seems aspect of our modern superiority complexes that our methods are far better, that we forget that there was a time when war was fought between soldiers (not civilians). It is also an interesting fact that, contrary to popular belief, not many people actually died (relatively speaking) in warfare fought with pointy sticks. The victor was usually he that could get the enemy to run away.

I could go on, but it's long already and I don't want to dilute it too much.

I like the "Space Odyssey" point of view. The first scene has primitive apish ancestors being confronted with an alien monolith. They react with a mixture of fear, curiosity, and bravery, the same traits that then characterize their evolution into modern man.

Then the next scene shows men landing on the moon and finding another monolith. But the Homo Sapiens reacts to the bizarre occurence with civil restraint and scientific objectivity, calmly recording the phenomenon in anotated text. Traits that characterized hominid evolution have all but disappeared.

The point being that technology and civilization have diminished us as much as they have enriched us.

Why do we equate "civilization" with peace and non-violence? Civilization is founded on opresseion, supression, violence, exploitation, and suffering.

because we want our cultural project of the last 8,000+ years to be something positive, rather than the nearly unmitigated disaster it turned out to be.

civilized? im surprised public executions dont get put on pay per view! people are always screaming for someones blood.

just read one of the forums threads on religion,human sexuality,politics,or one of the flame threads that goes back and forth about americans and europeans and then tell me with a straight face we are civilized.

technology doesnt make us civilized. being civil comes from within.

most people are just scared little kids running around in big people skins. most people never really grow up. the human race is neurotic. the only difference between a kid and an adult: the adult is more dangerous because they are bigger and have more knowledge they can use to hurt people....

because we want our cultural project of the last 8,000+ years to be something positive, rather than the nearly unmitigated disaster it turned out to be.

Well, amongst all of this, I've found a few people who know oppression and suffering to not only be neccesary, but an indispensable part of life, of human life. Life is incomplete without pain and sacrifice.

Amongst all of this, I'm impressed with what we have accomplished.