NationStates Jolt Archive

I forsee fundamentalists Republicans suffering an aneurism.

Simply put,
Yes, we can now use genetic engineering to rid the world of homosexuality! Oh wait, genetic engineering is immoral - but how do we get rid of all the gays?! Now we're back at square one! *brain explodes*

Hey now, I'm borderline moderate republican... it isn't fair to say that all republicans would say that.

I would moreso say... christian fundamentalists...

Nah.

It will probably be:

"Wow it's natural. Oh well you can't tell what God's plans are! But hey now we can correct this unfortunate affliction. After all you don't want babies being punished for sins they didn't commit do you?"

;)

Hey now, I'm borderline moderate republican... it isn't fair to say that all republicans would say that.

I would moreso say... christian fundamentalists...
Sorry, I was a bit too encompassing here :D

But if genetics can rid the world of homosexuality, it must mean that god made them that way. Meaning, the Christian Fundamentalists are screwed once again.

If homosexuality is proven to be genetic, then Georgia will outlaw the teaching of "DNA Theory"

I forsee fundamentalists Republicans suffering an aneurism.

Simply put,
Yes, we can now use genetic engineering to rid the world of homosexuality! Oh wait, genetic engineering is immoral - but how do we get rid of all the gays?! Now we're back at square one! *brain explodes*



Kind of looks like flamebait to me.

Everything is flamebait.

Mm, if it's really genetic, then Christianity is pretty much screwed in the anti-homosexuality arena.

In fact, I think they already are, you know, Jesus having died for our sins so we would not have to worry about sinning. Therefore the practice of homosexual sex is fine! So long as you repent I guess.

Kind of looks like flamebait to me.


Hello Pot meet kettle.....

You misspelt 'libertarian' in your sig, superpower

Hello Pot meet kettle.....

Gosh, the same thing popped up in my mind..

Hello Pot meet kettle.....
I somehow never cease to be annoyed by that saying, and I don’t know why.

I somehow never cease to be annoyed by that saying, and I don’t know why.



Overused and generally misapplied. I only use it when I have to.

Everything is flamebait.

Mm, if it's really genetic, then Christianity is pretty much screwed in the anti-homosexuality arena.

In fact, I think they already are, you know, Jesus having died for our sins so we would not have to worry about sinning. Therefore the practice of homosexual sex is fine! So long as you repent I guess.



We wouldn't be affected by it at all. Many people have a genetic predisposition to sinful behavior, such as alchoholism.

Hello Pot meet kettle.....

I read nearly all of her posts, and have never seen her flamebait. Flame, maybe, but only in retaliation.

The fact that she defends what she believes in (which isn't what the majority here believe) does not automatically make her a troll.

Since when have the fundies cared about what science says anyways?

If homosexuality is genetic, I have a hard time seeing how it is passed from generation to generation because gay people can't... procreate.

Overused and generally misapplied. I only use it when I have to.

It is very well applied when in your regard.

Haloman, you aren't one to speak on this. I see several fundamentalist trolls in here.

"If homosexuality is genetic, I have a hard time seeing how it is passed from generation to generation because gay people can't... procreate. "

Somebody doesn't know what recessive traits are.. they can be carried on no matter what..

I read nearly all of her posts, and have never seen her flamebait. Flame, maybe, but only in retaliation.

The fact that she defends what she believes in (which isn't what the majority here believe) does not automatically make her a troll.



Not to mention I've never made an original thread in General anyway, so he has no clue what he's talking about :D

Geez, I start this thread for some humor (on my other username) and all I get is this. Everyone's a critic

If homosexuality is genetic, I have a hard time seeing how it is passed from generation to generation because gay people can't... procreate.

Assuming homosexuality is genetic, it doesn't require the homosexual to reproduce to spread it on, especially is it exists as a recessive trait in all humans. It would be a proverbial roll of the dice in that case.

"Everything is flamebait.

Mm, if it's really genetic, then Christianity is pretty much screwed in the anti-homosexuality arena.

In fact, I think they already are, you know, Jesus having died for our sins so we would not have to worry about sinning. Therefore the practice of homosexual sex is fine! So long as you repent I guess"


First of all there is serious doubt that personalities and lifestyles are genetic, mainly they are developed by people's surroundings and what they have to deal with that shapes them. Next of all: STOP INSULTING CHRISTIANITY! If you had actually read the bible then you would realize that Jesus died to save sinners, We do have to worry about sinning and we do have to repent, if you even so much as think you are christian then maybe you need to find a church without a parker bros. endorsed priest or reverand. Homosexuality in any shape or form is frowned upon in black and white, maybe if you repent for a long ass time and stop being gay then maybe, just maybe you might still have a chance to get into heaven. Thank You.

It is very well applied when in your regard.

Haloman, you aren't one to speak on this. I see several fundamentalist trolls in here.

"If homosexuality is genetic, I have a hard time seeing how it is passed from generation to generation because gay people can't... procreate. "

Somebody doesn't know what recessive traits are.. they can be carried on no matter what..


I have a question: Can you possibly ever debate my points instead of just using ad hominem attacks?

It is very well applied when in your regard.

Haloman, you aren't one to speak on this. I see several fundamentalist trolls in here.

"If homosexuality is genetic, I have a hard time seeing how it is passed from generation to generation because gay people can't... procreate. "

Somebody doesn't know what recessive traits are.. they can be carried on no matter what..

A troll?

I'm honored!

Really, you aren't one to tell me when to speak and when not to speak. That authority rests with....no one.

Besides that, I know a few gay people who have absolutely no history of homosexuality in their family, so I highly doubt it's genetic. My opinion is that everyonee has homosexual tendencies, it's a matter of how much tendency, and your willingness to act on those tendencies.

First of all there is serious doubt that personalities and lifestyles are genetic, mainly they are developed by people's surroundings and what they have to deal with that shapes them. Next of all: STOP INSULTING CHRISTIANITY! If you had actually read the bible then you would realize that Jesus died to save sinners, We do have to worry about sinning and we do have to repent, if you even so much as think you are christian then maybe you need to find a church without a parker bros. endorsed priest or reverand. Homosexuality in any shape or form is frowned upon in black and white, maybe if you repent for a long ass time and stop being gay then maybe, just maybe you might still have a chance to get into heaven. Thank You.

Homosexuality is a personality? I'm sorry but no. It is a sexual orientation. Also you people throw around the word lifestyle like candy. Stop insulting homosexuality with your bible. Homosexuality is frowned upon in black and white? Really? My parents accept me for who I am. And to hell with your religion.. I'm not going to repent for something that is not wrong. Oh and guess what? I'm not going to stop being gay for the satisfaction of fascists!

A troll?

I'm honored!

Really, you aren't one to tell me when to speak and when not to speak. That authority rests with....no one.

Besides that, I know a few gay people who have absolutely no history of homosexuality in their family, so I highly doubt it's genetic. My opinion is that everyonee has homosexual tendencies, it's a matter of how much tendency, and your willingness to act on those tendencies.

Again it is called recessive traits. If you cannot understanding please leave this thread. Genetics plays the biggest part. You're nothing more then a troll. And you should be regarded as such.

But if genetics can rid the world of homosexuality, it must mean that god made them that way. Meaning, the Christian Fundamentalists are screwed once again.

Yes.

Homosexuality is a personality? I'm sorry but no. It is a sexual orientation. Also you people throw around the word lifestyle like candy. Stop insulting homosexuality with your bible. Homosexuality is frowned upon in black and white? Really? My parents accept me for who I am. And to hell with your religion.. I'm not going to repent for something that is not wrong.



I showed that to me dad. He laughed pretty heartily. Thanks for the entertainment value :D

I showed that to me dad. He laughed pretty heartily. Thanks for the entertainment value :D

What entertainment value? I'm dead serious. Your dad is probably as bad off as you.

Again it is called recessive traits. If you cannot understanding please leave this thread. Genetics plays the biggest part. You're nothing more then a troll. And you should be regarded as such.



Mesa, have you ever stopped to consider the possibility that maybe you're the troll here? I mean, I limit many of my arguments to the Bible, yet at least I use it reinforce my statements. You limit your arguments to your own opinion, and disregard any evidence to the contrary. At least back up your claims with something.

Homosexuality is a personality? I'm sorry but no. It is a sexual orientation. Also you people throw around the word lifestyle like candy. Stop insulting homosexuality with your bible. Homosexuality is frowned upon in black and white? Really? My parents accept me for who I am. And to hell with your religion.. I'm not going to repent for something that is not wrong.

Ok, then... I didn't say personality I used that as an example, if you don't like that then get counselling. I would rather use the word "lifestyle" than call it what it really is: "One of the world's worst plague of sins!" You're parents accept you for who you are? Good for you! Want a shiny medal? My religion is only frowned upon because you people bash the bible and then hide behind it when it is useful to you. If anything you are a hypocrite and I don't really care if you do or do not repent, it's your decision but I warned you and thats all I have to do.

I showed that to me dad. He laughed pretty heartily. Thanks for the entertainment value :D

You ignorant fools. How dare you speak for God? How dare anyone? True love is true love, true love is God. That is a fundamental no matter what kind of religion you follow.

---

On a separate note: I hope no one is atheist just becasue they are homosexual.

Overused and generally misapplied
That’s probably it.
What entertainment value? I'm dead serious. Your dad is probably as bad off as you.
We (fundamentalist Christians) are not all like that, you know. You’re one of the few homosexuals (on this forum at least) who seems to have a grasp of economic and geo-political realities, and my opinion of you is generally good. Sure, I disagree with your lifestyle, but I disagree with a lot of things that I tolerate.

If homosexuality is proven to be genetic, then Georgia will outlaw the teaching of "DNA Theory"

Or, at least Cobb County would. =)

I read nearly all of her posts, and have never seen her flamebait. Flame, maybe, but only in retaliation.

That's funny. All I have ever seen her do is flamebait and flame, which is probably why I have her on ignore.

The fact that she defends what she believes in (which isn't what the majority here believe) does not automatically make her a troll.

No, it doesn't. And no one has claimed that defending what you believe in is trolling. Insulting others for not agreeing - that is trolling. Claiming that you are absolutely right in everything you say and no one can even have another viewpoint - that is trolling. Look, I just described every one of her posts.

Assuming homosexuality is genetic, it doesn't require the homosexual to reproduce to spread it on, especially is it exists as a recessive trait in all humans. It would be a proverbial roll of the dice in that case.

Even bringing in the idea of a recessive trait is too big of an assumption. It assumes that sexuality is controlled by a single gene which has dominant and recessive alleles - something that is very unlikely given the complexity of sexuality and the fact that it exists on a spectrum.

First of all there is serious doubt that personalities and lifestyles are genetic,

That's cool. Of course, we aren't talking about personalities and lifestyles. We are talking about sexuality. Sexuality may not be completely genetically controlled, but claiming that genetics are not a factor would be ludicrous.

Homosexuality in any shape or form is frowned upon in black and white,

Good to know that you are Jesus Christ himself and can thus explain what all Christians think.

maybe if you repent for a long ass time and stop being gay then maybe, just maybe you might still have a chance to get into heaven. Thank You.

One who is gay can no more "stop being gay" than I can "stop being female." They can choose whether or not to act upon their attractions, but they can't simply stop having them.

Besides that, I know a few gay people who have absolutely no history of homosexuality in their family, so I highly doubt it's genetic. My opinion is that everyonee has homosexual tendencies, it's a matter of how much tendency, and your willingness to act on those tendencies.

And again a lack of understanding of genetics. A complex trait controlled by many genes may not show a family history, as no one has had the exact combination of that person yet. And then, of course, there is the fact that those who are homosexual have been socialized to enter into heterosexual marriage and not talk about it.

You ignorant fools. How dare you speak for God? How dare anyone? True love is true love, true love is God. That is a fundamental no matter what kind of religion you follow.

---

On a separate note: I hope no one is atheist just becasue they are homosexual.



Mesa is. He even stated it pushed him from agnosticism to atheism lol.

Ok, then... I didn't say personality I used that as an example, if you don't like that then get counselling. I would rather use the word "lifestyle" than call it what it really is: "One of the world's worst plague of sins!" You're parents accept you for who you are? Good for you! Want a shiny medal? My religion is only frowned upon because you people bash the bible and then hide behind it when it is useful to you. If anything you are a hypocrite and I don't really care if you do or do not repent, it's your decision but I warned you and thats all I have to do.

Lifestyle is a bit of a misnomer. It is thrown around like H20. I don't care about peoples religion. Freedom of religion. Go ahead and preach what you want, as long as you don't force it on me. My parents accept me for who I am because they love me. You are the hypocrite. Don't you fucking dare. It is my decision to do what? To follow your phony religion?

Neo Hitl.. Rog:

Mesa, have you ever stopped to consider the possibility that maybe you're the troll here? I mean, I limit many of my arguments to the Bible, yet at least I use it reinforce my statements. You limit your arguments to your own opinion, and disregard any evidence to the contrary. At least back up your claims with something.

You are the troll here. And my name is Giancarlo. You limit many of your arguments to the bible. Congrats. You just proved how narrow minded you really are. My arguments are not limited to only my opinion, but scientific evidence you never even recognize.

Ok, then... I didn't say personality I used that as an example, if you don't like that then get counselling. I would rather use the word "lifestyle" than call it what it really is: "One of the world's worst plague of sins!" You're parents accept you for who you are? Good for you! Want a shiny medal? My religion is only frowned upon because you people bash the bible and then hide behind it when it is useful to you. If anything you are a hypocrite and I don't really care if you do or do not repent, it's your decision but I warned you and thats all I have to do.

. . .That's funny, because if homosexuality really were one of the worst plagues upon mankind, one would have thought that Jesus would have taken at least a little bit of time out of his constant inveighing against those minor nuisances of greed and hatred to talk about it. Instead, not one word of the Gospels is a word against the practice of homosexuality.

We (fundamentalist Christians) are not all like that, you know. You’re one of the few homosexuals (on this forum at least) who seems to have a grasp of economic and geo-political realities, and my opinion of you is generally good. Sure, I disagree with your lifestyle, but I disagree with a lot of things that I tolerate.

Uh, I don't know how I can hang out with someone who disapproves of my sexual orientation... it is just difficult for me not to jump on the issue. What can I say.. I'm more involved in gay rights movements, then anything related to my economic views.

Again it is called recessive traits. If you cannot understanding please leave this thread. Genetics plays the biggest part. You're nothing more then a troll. And you should be regarded as such.

I understand recessive traits, thank you. That's why I said NO family history of homosexuality, as in, none of their ancestors were gay. Therefore, it was not genetic.

And to hell with your religion.. I'm not going to repent for something that is not wrong. Oh and guess what? I'm not going to stop being gay for the satisfaction of fascists!

And I'm the troll?

I am not jesus himself but I do follow what the bible means, if I happen to think of myself as a good christian then I am entitled to that opinion. And by the way it's not just christianity that is against homosexuality. Muslims and many other religions are. Sexuality doesn't have everything to do with DNA. You aren't just born gay. And another thing: 30 psychologists have determined that homosexuality can be stopped. Just like the disease it is. If you have any more comments say them but I won't bother responding. I've had enough of you bible-bashing-hypocratical-freaks.

Facist?! YOU LIVE IN A FACIST COUNTRY AND YOU HAVE THE NERVE TO CALL CHRISTIANITY FACIST?! You're really messed up you know that?!

Mesa is. He even stated it pushed him from agnosticism to atheism lol.

Actually I went from being agnostic to atheist because that was personal feeling as regard to whether I believe in god. I was not sure nor did I care before, but after encountering individuals as yourself I believe there is no god. Homosexuality is not the primary factor.

Haloman:

I understand recessive traits, thank you. That's why I said NO family history of homosexuality, as in, none of their ancestors were gay. Therefore, it was not genetic.

Apparently you don't because recessive traits can remain hidden for generations upon generations. And how do youk now if any of them weren't gay? Ever heard of staying in the closet?

You have an extremely simplistic view of genetics.. but what do I expect from a simple minded fundamentalist...

First of all there is serious doubt that personalities and lifestyles are genetic, mainly they are developed by people's surroundings and what they have to deal with that shapes them. Next of all: STOP INSULTING CHRISTIANITY! If you had actually read the bible then you would realize that Jesus died to save sinners, We do have to worry about sinning and we do have to repent, if you even so much as think you are christian then maybe you need to find a church without a parker bros. endorsed priest or reverand. Homosexuality in any shape or form is frowned upon in black and white, maybe if you repent for a long ass time and stop being gay then maybe, just maybe you might still have a chance to get into heaven. Thank You.

I said what's bolded. We don't have to worry about sinning, so why are homosexuals given so much shit about doing something that is 'sinful.'

Yes, I am Christian, my interpretation of the Bible is obviously quite different from you. And by the way you, and many others are acting you're pushing me towards Agnosticism (is that a word?).

Good to know that you are Jesus Christ himself and can thus explain what all Christians think.


Nearly all biblical scholars with a knowledge of Hebrew and Greek pretty much agree with him. Quit hiding behind the "well, only Jesus knows what Jesus knows" fallacy and admit it: Homosexuality is condemned in the Bible. Your best attempts at fudging the meaning of Leviticus, Romans, and 1 Corinthians only create minor degrees of doubt and never truly refute the notion. I think Peter had something to say about it:


2 Peter 2:1 1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.


Quit being hypocritical and accusing me of egotism, when you clearly want your sect which embraces homosexual activity to have the say in politics.

I understand recessive traits, thank you. That's why I said NO family history of homosexuality, as in, none of their ancestors were gay. Therefore, it was not genetic.


There is no family history for being left-handed either, yet only the most ignorant today would claim that it is not genetic.

I am not jesus himself but I do follow what the bible means, if I happen to think of myself as a good christian then I am entitled to that opinion. And by the way it's not just christianity that is against homosexuality. Muslims and many other religions are. Sexuality doesn't have everything to do with DNA. You aren't just born gay. And another thing: 30 psychologists have determined that homosexuality can be stopped. Just like the disease it is. If you have any more comments say them but I won't bother responding. I've had enough of you bible-bashing-hypocratical-freaks.

Facist?! YOU LIVE IN A FACIST COUNTRY AND YOU HAVE THE NERVE TO CALL CHRISTIANITY FACIST?! You're really messed up you know that?!

Apparently from your views I have the right to call you "facist" (SIC). Furthermore, I don't care if other religions are against it. It doesn't make your religion or their religions right. I am born gay. And there isn't a fucking thing you can do about it. And start citing these psychologists. I want to see sources and see if their studies were recognized. It isn't a disease. You are the one who is a damn homosexual-bashing-hypocritical jerk.

Fascist indeed.

I understand recessive traits, thank you. That's why I said NO family history of homosexuality, as in, none of their ancestors were gay. Therefore, it was not genetic.


You do realize that it's possible for someone to have no history of a genetic disease like cystic fibrosis and still contract the disease, right? All that has to happen in that instance is to inherit the single recessive marker from both parents, and that marker can (and often does, since the heterozygous trait in that gene is advantageous) be transferred down the line for generations.

So if you can't tell from a person's grandparents and parents whether or not he's going to contract a disease like that, what makes you think you can do the same with something a great deal more complicated like homosexuality?

Actually I went from being agnostic to atheist because that was personal feeling as regard to whether I believe in god. I was not sure nor did I care before, but after encountering individuals as yourself I believe there is no god. Homosexuality is not the primary factor.

Haloman:



Apparently you don't because recessive traits can remain hidden for generations upon generations. And how do youk now if any of them weren't gay? Ever heard of staying in the closet?

You have an extremely simplistic view of genetics.. but what do I expect from a simple minded fundamentalist...

That's what I am saying.... Generations back were not homosexual. Believe me, I understand recessive genetics...neither of their ancestors on either side were gay...And if I do recall correctly, both parents must have the recessive gene for the offspring to display the trait.

Oh, and who's flame-baiting now?

I am not fundamentalist, nor am I simple minded, and I wish you'd stop assuming things :p

Uh, I don't know how I can hang out with someone who disapproves of my sexual orientation... it is just difficult for me not to jump on the issue. What can I say.. I'm more involved in gay rights movements, then anything related to my economic views.
Equality under the law has nothing to do with one’s opinion on homosexuality (or shouldn’t, at least).

Jesus never told anybody to use government as an avenue to push their views on others.
Neither did Paul or any other New Testament figure.

I said what's bolded. We don't have to worry about sinning, so why are homosexuals given so much shit about doing something that is 'sinful.'

Yes, I am Christian, my interpretation of the Bible is obviously quite different from you. And by the way you, and many others are acting you're pushing me towards Agnosticism (is that a word?).



If you would abdicate your faith and embrace agnosticism, merely because you have been challenged in scriptural interpretation, then can we really assume you were ready for theological debate anyway?

That's what I am saying.... Generations back were not homosexual. Believe me, I understand recessive genetics...neither of their ancestors on either side were gay...And if I do recall correctly, both parents must have the recessive gene for the offspring to display the trait.

You don't understand recessive traits at all. It doesn't matter if generations back were not homosexual. Believe you? How the hell can I believe anything that comes out of your mouth? There are traits in human beings that have remained hidden for thousands of years.

Nearly all biblical scholars with a knowledge of Hebrew and Greek pretty much agree with him. Quit hiding behind the "well, only Jesus knows what Jesus knows" fallacy and admit it: Homosexuality is condemned in the Bible. Your best attempts at fudging the meaning of Leviticus, Romans, and 1 Corinthians only create minor degrees of doubt and never truly refute the notion. I think Peter had something to say about it:


2 Peter 2:1 1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.


Quit being hypocritical and accusing me of egotism, when you clearly want your sect which embraces homosexual activity to have the say in politics.

You should be more precise in your wording: sexual immorality, usually undefined specifically, is condemned in the Bible. Most Biblical scholars have simply interpreted homosexuality to be one form of sexual immorality. Nevertheless, it isn't antithetical to the Bible to interpret those passages in a way that does not condemn homosexuality outright, and in fact, I've heard interpretations that square with what the rest of the Bible says a lot better than saying that homosexuals are the intended target of God's wrath.

If you would abdicate your faith and embrace agnosticism, merely because you have been challenged in scriptural interpretation, then can we really assume you were ready for theological debate anyway?

This 'scriptual interpretation' is held by and incredibly large number of Christians, truth be told I don't want to debate with all of you.

Actually I don't really want to debate, more like I want to understand.

You should be more precise in your wording: sexual immorality, usually undefined specifically, is condemned in the Bible. Most Biblical scholars have simply interpreted homosexuality to be one form of sexual immorality. Nevertheless, it isn't antithetical to the Bible to interpret those passages in a way that does not condemn homosexuality outright, and in fact, I've heard interpretations that square with what the rest of the Bible says a lot better than saying that homosexuals are the intended target of God's wrath.


Shall I cite several commentaries from learned scholars who show how the original Greek and Hebrew implies the homosexual act is discussed?

I understand recessive traits, thank you. That's why I said NO family history of homosexuality, as in, none of their ancestors were gay. Therefore, it was not genetic.

Two incredibly poor assumptions:

1) It isn't a single dominant allele, it isn't a single recessive allele, therefore it can't possibly be genetic. This suggests that you don't even have a basic understanding of genetics.

2) None of their ancestors said they were gay, therefore none of them were.

You don't understand recessive traits at all. It doesn't matter if generations back were not homosexual. Believe you? How the hell can I believe anything that comes out of your mouth? There are traits in human beings that have remained hidden for thousands of years.

Yes, it does.

Somewhere in their family history there must have been a homosexual, or how would the recessive gene make it's way through the family tree? I'm not saying that it's 100% certain that homosexuality is not genetic, I'm saying that I doubt it.

So, if you were born gay, did you come out of the womb and say "Guess what, everyone, I'm gay as a rainbow!" No, my bet is that something in your life (environmental facotrs, what you were exposed to, etc) turned you gay.

So tell me. What happened in your early childhood that you can remember? Anything odd?

So tell me. What happened in your early childhood that you can remember? Anything odd?

What the hell are you on?

What the hell are you on?

A theory that I have.

Somewhere in their family history there must have been a homosexual, or how would the recessive gene make it's way through the family tree? I'm not saying that it's 100% certain that homosexuality is not genetic, I'm saying that I doubt it.

You can doubt it all you want. But that doesn't change the reality. And furthermore, traits can be unexpressed for generations.

So, if you were born gay, did you come out of the womb and say "Guess what, everyone, I'm gay as a rainbow!" No, my bet is that something in your life (environmental facotrs, what you were exposed to, etc) turned you gay.

You are resorting to logical fallacies including strawmans. No, no environmental factors.. I did not turn gay. You can stop being a ignorant fool now. I didn't turn gay, I was born gay. You won't change that. I realized it only in my puberty.

So tell me. What happened in your early childhood that you can remember? Anything odd?

You should shut up. Now you are accusing that something happened in my early childhood. I was like every other kid.. with two loving parents.. typical middle class family...

-snip-

Your premise assumes that all genetic traits have to be passed down; what of sterility from birth, or any genetic condition that prevents reproduction? Those couldn't be passed down and yet they exist...the only other possibility is that they always existed as part of the genetic code of the species.

A theory that I have.

A stupid, retarded theory that is false.

Shall I cite several commentaries from learned scholars who show how the original Greek and Hebrew implies the homosexual act is discussed?

You can if you want to, but I've already admitted that most Biblical scholars have interpreted homosexuality to be a form of impure sexual practice, haven't I?

Nevertheless, homosexuality is only explicitly linked to impure sexuality in Levitican law, IIRC (it's been a while since I read Deuteronomy, but I don't think it's in there). Levitican law, incidentally enough, is a law that doesn't apply to Christians. So that isn't going to really work for you. Most of the rest of the quotations sort of imply that homosexuality is a target, but it could be other facets of those sexual acts that are the target.

Somewhere in their family history there must have been a homosexual, or how would the recessive gene make it's way through the family tree? I'm not saying that it's 100% certain that homosexuality is not genetic, I'm saying that I doubt it.

First off, if we were talking about a single gene here, which is doubtful, it would be entirely possible that the recessive allele of the gene had been carried for hundreds of generations back, and no one had gotten two copies of it. It would be entirely possible that some of the family were carriers, but none were homozygous. It would be possible that a carrier, in the past, always had children with someone homozygous for the dominant trait - thus never passing on any more than carrier status to their children.

Of course, in this case, there are no physical attributes to be traced. All you have is someone saying, or more likely never actually asking, "Hey, are you attracted to the same sex?" Marriage and sex with a member of the opposite sex does not make someone heterosexual. Attraction solely to the opposite sex does.

So, if you were born gay, did you come out of the womb and say "Guess what, everyone, I'm gay as a rainbow!" No, my bet is that something in your life (environmental facotrs, what you were exposed to, etc) turned you gay.

To make it an either/or is silly.

Meanwhile, the main environmental factor that has been shown to affect sexuality in animals is hormone concentrations in the womb. Thus, the environmental effect has already taken place before the offspring is born.

You can doubt it all you want. But that doesn't change the reality. And furthermore, traits can be unexpressed for generations.



You are resorting to logical fallacies including strawmans. No, no environmental factors.. I did not turn gay. You can stop being a ignorant fool now. I didn't turn gay, I was born gay. You won't change that. I realized it only in my puberty.



You should shut up. Now you are accusing that something happened in my early childhood. I was like every other kid.. with two loving parents.. typical middle class family...

No, I don't think I will. You say nothing happened, nothing did. I take your word for it. I'm not being ignorant, I just believe that people are not born gay. I accept your sexual orientation. You think you're born gay, I disagree. We can agree to disagree.

No, I don't think I will. You say nothing happened, nothing did. I take your word for it. I'm not being ignorant, I just believe that people are not born gay. I accept your sexual orientation. You think you're born gay, I disagree. We can agree to disagree.

You are just being incredibly rude. I believe people are born gay, and I believe people are born straight. That's a fact. You can agree to disagree with me all you want, but I won't move.

Since when have the fundies cared about what science says anyways?

When they started using guns, microwaves, computers, airplanes, telephones, televisions, cd's, dvd's, stereo equipment, and lightbulbs. Although there was this one time I was arguing with this Christian lady and she said she didn't believe in technology but used a laptop because she didn't think a laptop was a computer. What the hell is that? :p

I am not jesus himself but I do follow what the bible means, if I happen to think of myself as a good christian then I am entitled to that opinion. And by the way it's not just christianity that is against homosexuality. Muslims and many other religions are. Sexuality doesn't have everything to do with DNA. You aren't just born gay. And another thing: 30 psychologists have determined that homosexuality can be stopped. Just like the disease it is. If you have any more comments say them but I won't bother responding. I've had enough of you bible-bashing-hypocratical-freaks.

Facist?! YOU LIVE IN A FACIST COUNTRY AND YOU HAVE THE NERVE TO CALL CHRISTIANITY FACIST?! You're really messed up you know that?!
So your statement boils down to "no it isent I have been told [insert hypothetical unprovable supposition here] " and then plug your ears and go "la la la la" :p

So your statement boils down to "no it isent I have been told [insert hypothetical unprovable supposition here] " and then plug your ears and go "la la la la" :p

I'd like to know how sexuality has nothing to do with DNA, seeing as how the primary purpose of sex is to exchange DNA. :rolleyes:

You are just being incredibly rude. I believe people are born gay, and I believe people are born straight. That's a fact. You can agree to disagree with me all you want, but I won't move.

Rude? I beg your pardon:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9410648#post9410648

You, sir, are the rude one.

I'd like to know how sexuality has nothing to do with DNA, seeing as how the primary purpose of sex is to exchange DNA. :rolleyes:
Lol go figure :fluffle:

Rude? I beg your pardon:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9410648#post9410648

You, sir, are the rude one.

Nothing rude there. In fact I'm very proud of what I said because it is right and proper.

Nothing rude there. In fact I'm very proud of what I said because it is right and proper.

Yet not rude at all... :rolleyes:

And if you were a Christian? What would you think then?

What if I came out and called you a flaming queer ass faggot? That wouldn't make you feel too good, would it? Don't resort to insults, they do nothing but demean yourself and other people.

I'm quite offended when people call Christians 'simple minded', 'fascists', and when people tell my religion to 'go to hell', when most Christians I know are intelligent, loving, and accepting people.

Yes, sex is all about passing on DNA; but may I remind everyone that there are also people who have NO Sexual desires, either heterosexual or homosexual. These so-called 'a-sexuals' simply have no interest in sex. Now; people are born the way they are born. And yes, how you are raised can have profound effects on your behavior. But your basic desires are encoded. You, nor your god, nor all your angels and saints, can tell a person how they should or should not feel. You think that your way is the only way. It is not. Every religion on this earth believes they are the one true one; and that doesn't work out.

Look at all the evils that religion has wrought over the centuries; Crusades, Witch hunts, Inquisitions. You show as closed minds as those who burnt innocents at Salem. You show as much closed mindedness as those that crucified Christ. The Old Testament condemns homosexuality, and bestiality and incest (Though how we got here then becomes a question). But the new testament seems strangely free of gay bashing. If Christ can forgive a prostitute; if he can lay aside the burden of the lame and blind; if he can rid a man of Legion in its myriad forms, and cure lepers; I ask you, would he not want you to forgive homosexuals, though their sin does not exist?

Was his message not of love towards your fellow man? and acceptance and equality amongst men. The Kingdom of Heaven is tolerance.

Think on that;
'Childe Of Caine.'

What if I came out and called you a flaming queer ass faggot? That wouldn't make you feel too good, would it? Don't resort to insults, they do nothing but demean yourself and other people.

You basically just did. I will resort to strong words that are related to the cold hard facts. Christian fundamentalists are simple minded, are fascists and their religion does not influence me. keep in mind, I'm always talking about fundamentalists.

I am not jesus himself but I do follow what the bible means, if I happen to think of myself as a good christian then I am entitled to that opinion.

Yes, you are entitled to that opinion.

However, you are not entitled to speak for all Christians.

And by the way it's not just christianity that is against homosexuality.

And here you go speaking for all of Christianity again, as if your personal belief and interpretation encompasses all of Christianity.

Muslims and many other religions are.

Some Muslims believe that. Others do not. The same goes for most other religions.

Sexuality doesn't have everything to do with DNA.

Who said it had "everything to do with DNA." Complex traits are rarely completely and absolutely controlled by genetics.

You aren't just born gay.

Evidence?

And another thing: 30 psychologists have determined that homosexuality can be stopped.

What you mean is that 30 psychologists have claimed this, despite all evidence to the contrary and the fact that said psychologists are said to be completely wrong by the consensus in their field. Meanwhile, I have yet to see a single peer-reviewed study with any conclusive evidence that one can change their sexuality. Not a single one. And I have looked.

Just like the disease it is. If you have any more comments say them but I won't bother responding. I've had enough of you bible-bashing-hypocratical-freaks.

That's cute. Of course, I didn't bash the Bible, nor have I said anything hypocritical.

Maybe you should look up a psychological term called "projecting".

You basically just did. I will resort to strong words that are related to the cold hard facts. Christian fundamentalists are simple minded, are fascists and their religion does not influence me. keep in mind, I'm always talking about fundamentalists.

I wouldn't do that, at all, I was trying to make a point.

Christian fundamentalists are neither simple minded nor fascist. Granted, you get your Jerry Fallwells and Fred Phelps', but the everyday average joe funamentalist is not.

Homosexuality isn't genetic. Sorry. I know it isn't a choice and I would never think to tell people they chose to be gay or straight, however there is no "gay gene". If there were, when one identical twin is gay, the other would have to be gay. There are many many instances where that is not the case.

Personally, I do not believe you can be born gay. Nor do I believe you can be born straight. I believe your orientation is developed early on and that homosexuality is caused by a malfunction of sorts during this development, most likely hormonal. No one can help the way they develop and therefore no one chooses their orientation, but at the same time, it is not genetic.

Christian fundamentalists are neither simple minded nor fascist. Granted, you get your Jerry Fallwells and Fred Phelps', but the everyday average joe funamentalist is not.

Jerry Falwell, Fred Phelps, Pat Robertson are all indicative of the entire christian fundamentalist movement, and are simple minded and fascist.

Homosexuality isn't genetic. Sorry. I know it isn't a choice and I would never think to tell people they chose to be gay or straight, however there is no "gay gene". If there were, when one identical twin is gay, the other would have to be gay. There are many many instances where that is not the case.

Prove it. You are speaking so conclusively that there is no gay gene... prove that there isn't a gay gene.

Prove it.

Prove that there is a gay gene.

Prove that there is a gay gene.

There is evidence to show that homosexuality is primarily caused by genetics. Studies done related with scent... etc.

If homosexuality is genetic, I have a hard time seeing how it is passed from generation to generation because gay people can't... procreate.

Okay, look at it this way. Are you an exact clone of your parents? Half one, half the other? Do you possess absolutely no traits, however trivial, that are less than identical to one or the other of them?

If not, you've just refuted your own point. Two points from elementary genetics - (a) recessive traits exist, and (b) many, many things are coded for by multiple genes. Multiple genes. Not one. Multiple. How many times does this have to be repeated before people quit claiming that "it can't be genetic because [nonsense which boils down to "I have no comprehension of basic genetics"]."

*sigh*

And whats the bet the next post will be "Prove that there isn't"

· 3-5% of all births result in congenital malformations (Robinson, Linden, 1993)
· 0.5% of all newborns have a chromosomal abnormality (Robinson, Linden, 1993)
· 7% of all stillborns have a chromosomal abnormality (Robinson, Linden, 1993)
· 20-30% of all infant deaths are due to genetic disorders (Berry, et al, 1987)
· 30-50% of post-neonatal deaths are due to congenital malformations (Koekelman, Pless, 1998)
· 11.1% of pediatric hospital admissions are for children with genetic disorders (Scriver, et al, 1973)
· 18.5% of pediatric hospitalizations are for children with congenital malformations(Scriver, et al, 1973)
· 50% of individuals found to have mental retardation have a genetic basis for their disability (Emory, Rimoin, 1990)
· 12% of adult hospital admissions are for genetic causes (Emory, Rimoin, 1990)
· 15% of all cancers have an inherited susceptibility (Schneider, 1994)
· 10% of the chronic diseases (heart, diabetes, arthritis) which occur in the adult populations have a significant genetic component (Weatherall, 1985)

Another possibility for estimating members who may benefit from genetic services would be to consider the more common diagnoses, or reasons for referral, and estimate the prevalence of enrollees with, or at risk of, these conditions based on known incidence figures. For example:

· Down syndrome (1/600 live births and increases with advanced maternal age)
· Pregnant and age 35 or above (risk of chromosome aneuploidy)
· Cystic Fibrosis (1/2500 Caucasian Americans)
· Fragile X syndrome (1/1,000 males and 1/800 female carriers of which 30% will be mentally retarded)
· Sickle cell disease (1/500 of African American births)
· Hemophilia - Factor VIII Deficiency (48/100,000 male births)
· Duchenne muscular dystrophy (200/million male births)
· Hemochromatosis (1/450 individuals)
· Breast cancer (1/8 women of which 5-10% of will have a genetic predisposition)

Lets see now, there are literally tons of genetic defects that directly diminish the lives of millions of people around the world, and you guys are making fun of the idea that if homosexuality is in fact a genetic defect that suddenly it means God made them that way?

How about we spend a little time in sensitivity training and diversity acceptance counseling before we go around insulting all the people with and the parents of people with genetic defects. What an idiotic way to act about illnesses, telling people that God made them that way :rolleyes: (they must have 'had it coming')...


http://www.kumc.edu/gec/support/

Prove it. You are speaking so conclusively that there is no gay gene... prove that there isn't a gay gene.

If there were a gay gene, how could you have identical twins, who share exactly the same genetic make-up with different orientations?

Don't get me wrong. I am a very strong supporter of gay-rights and equality. I do not believe that homosexuals are less than heterosexuals. It just isn't genetic.

If there were a gay gene, how could you have identical twins, who share exactly the same genetic make-up with different orientations?

Don't get me wrong. I am a very strong supporter of gay-rights and equality. I do not believe that homosexuals are less than heterosexuals. It just isn't genetic.

There is one thing vitally wrong with your argument: Recessive traits could only show up in one child, even in identical twins. Nice try really.

Again with the simplistic views on genetics..

It most certainly is genetic and a lot of evidence shows this.

Jerry Falwell, Fred Phelps, Pat Robertson are all indicative of the entire christian fundamentalist movement, and are simple minded and fascist.

They do not speak for all Christians, or even that, a majority of Christians.

Seriously. Go into a church. Annouce that you're gay. The majority of the reaction will most likely be "So what?"

But Twins are EXACT Genetic copies, from the same egg. They have the same genes.

Overused and generally misapplied. I only use it when I have to.

There is no excuse. I have a better idea. Just look at them like they're stupid. That gets the point across. :headbang:

There is one thing vitally wrong with your argument: Recessive traits could only show up in one child, even in identical twins. Nice try really.

Again with the simplistic views on genetics..

It most certainly is genetic and a lot of evidence shows this.

Identical twins must have the EXACT same genetics. There will not be a single gene different. Otherwise, they aren't twins. So no, I am not wrong.

But Twins are EXACT Genetic copies, from the same egg. They have the same genes.

Actually there are different recessive traits. Again with the simplistic view on genetics..

"They do not speak for all Christians, or even that, a majority of Christians.

I said fundamentalist christians.

But Twins are EXACT Genetic copies, from the same egg. They have the same genes.

Only identical twins, not fraternal twins. :D

If there were a gay gene, how could you have identical twins, who share exactly the same genetic make-up with different orientations?


There are several threads wrong with that line of argument, one specifically being that I-twin studies are often used as evidence of homosexuality being genetic due to the higher correlation rates on sexuality. Even with the twins have been separated at birth, correlation on sexuality seems to be near 50/50, which is much higher than in virtually any other group.

Identical twins must have the EXACT same genetics. There will not be a single gene different. Otherwise, they aren't twins. So no, I am not wrong.

I still have yet to see of any cases or evidence showing that homosexuality is environmental or a choice.

If there were a gay gene, how could you have identical twins, who share exactly the same genetic make-up with different orientations?

Don't get me wrong. I am a very strong supporter of gay-rights and equality. I do not believe that homosexuals are less than heterosexuals. It just isn't genetic.

All the twin studies show is that it isn't 100% genetic. Very few complex traits are. Look, for example, at many mental illnesses (which I pick not because I equate homosexuality with mental illness, but because it happens to be a field I've studied). There is clear evidence that depression/bipolar runs in families, but that certain environmental factors "trigger" it. Odds are homosexuality is similar - largely genetic, partially prenatal-environmental, and possibly slightly early-postnatal-environmental.

yeah, if you've got gay siblings your far more likely to be gay yourself

No; twins are formed from a single egg that divdes into two eggs; both with the exact same genes. Both are from the same FERTILISED egg; thus being the same cell. Each cell in your body, divided from this egg, contains the exact same genetic information. Everywhere. I'm doing a biology course at Uni; don't cowtow me with a 'simplistic' view of genetics. Twins are identical; right down to the smallest allele. Prove me wrong.

Hey now, I'm borderline moderate republican... it isn't fair to say that all republicans would say that.

I would moreso say... christian fundamentalists...

Which means most Republicans. :D

You basically just did. I will resort to strong words that are related to the cold hard facts. Christian fundamentalists are simple minded, are fascists and their religion does not influence me. keep in mind, I'm always talking about fundamentalists.

In truth, you have to be careful with the word "fundamentalists" these days. From a sociological point of view, fundamentalists are people who have not studied their religion, have not really explored it, but view it only through a series of perceived "threats" to it. A good example is Islamic fundamentalism, in which the followers focus completely on the perceived threat of Western culture, without emphasis on the core teachings of Islam.

However, there are now what I would call self-described fundamentalists who do not meet this description. For whatever reason, they have chosen a term to describe themselves which has negative connotations in sociology and religiosity.

Homosexuality isn't genetic. Sorry. I know it isn't a choice and I would never think to tell people they chose to be gay or straight, however there is no "gay gene". If there were, when one identical twin is gay, the other would have to be gay. There are many many instances where that is not the case.

Again with the complete lack of understanding of genetics.

First off, saying that something is genetically controlled does not mean that it is controlled by a single gene. Most traits, especially complex ones, are controlled by many more.

Second of all, even with a genetic component to sexuality, twins would not necessarily have the exact same sexuality - for a myriad of reasons. One is that sexuality also seems to be affected by hormones in the womb. As most hormones exist in a gradient and twins do not always get equal shares of placental blood, etc, it is entirely possible that twins would be exposed to different levels of hormones in utero. Another is the fact that twins are not completely genetically identical. Epigenetic traits are often different. Alterations to the DNA after it is formed are different. In cases where one copy of a gene is shut off and the other is not, the twinning may occur before this switch happens.

Biology is not as simple as you would like to think.

No; twins are formed from a single egg that divdes into two eggs; both with the exact same genes. Both are from the same FERTILISED egg; thus being the same cell. Each cell in your body, divided from this egg, contains the exact same genetic information. Everywhere. I'm doing a biology course at Uni; don't cowtow me with a 'simplistic' view of genetics. Twins are identical; right down to the smallest allele. Prove me wrong.

Most people I heard say that they share similiar traits, but not exact. I also have not heard of any cases where one identical twin is gay, and the other isn't. You can't show any of that, and you are thus inferring bullshit.

I still have yet to see of any cases or evidence showing that homosexuality is environmental or a choice.

I don't believe it is environmental or a choice. I said that in my first post. I believe it is something that happens during the child's early development. I believe most likely homosexuals developed slightly differently, probably in respect to hormones that alters the way they are wired.

No; twins are formed from a single egg that divdes into two eggs; both with the exact same genes. Both are from the same FERTILISED egg; thus being the same cell. Each cell in your body, divided from this egg, contains the exact same genetic information. Everywhere. I'm doing a biology course at Uni; don't cowtow me with a 'simplistic' view of genetics. Twins are identical; right down to the smallest allele. Prove me wrong.

Dibs!!

Sometimes, 2 eggs are fertilised, meaning that the two eggs will have different genes. So two babies will form, from different eggs.

Some bio course.

I don't believe it is environmental or a choice. I said that in my first post. I believe it is something that happens during the child's early development. I believe most likely homosexuals developed slightly differently, probably in respect to hormones that alters the way they are wired.

What happened in my early child hood? Nothing out of the ordinary. So I don't think you have much of an argument to stand on. Developed slightly differently in what way? Hormones? can you prove it?

Dibs!!

Sometimes, 2 eggs are fertilised, meaning that the two eggs will have different genes. So two babies will form, from different eggs.

Some bio course.

I was talking about mono-zygotic twins. Hence IDENTICAL TWINS. Not Fraternal Twins.

I still have yet to see of any cases or evidence showing that homosexuality is environmental or a choice.

Whoa, whoa - suggesting that homosexuality has some environmental causes is not at ALL the same as suggesting that it's a choice.

The twin studies do prove that it can't be absolutely 100% genetic, but practically nothing is. You may have to accept that it might be, say, 98% genetic and 2% early-environmental - but even so, no one with any sense is going to suggest that you "decided" to be gay.

Edit: It should also be noted that by "early-environmental," I'm talking "while in the womb or very shortly thereafter." Not any of the silly "all gay people were abused" nonsense or anything.

I forsee fundamentalists Republicans suffering an aneurism.

Simply put,
Yes, we can now use genetic engineering to rid the world of homosexuality! Oh wait, genetic engineering is immoral - but how do we get rid of all the gays?! Now we're back at square one! *brain explodes*

what's good about that is that totalitarians don't have to worry about that, they just say get rid of homosexuality and use genetic engineering!

on another note, i haven't seen you around allot lately, superpower07, how is yourself?

Whoa, whoa - suggesting that homosexuality has some environmental causes is not at ALL the same as suggesting that it's a choice.

The twin studies do prove that it can't be absolutely 100% genetic, but practically nothing is. You may have to accept that it might be, say, 98% genetic and 2% early-environmental - but even so, no one with any sense is going to suggest that you "decided" to be gay.

If you ever read my arguments, you would notice I consistently say sexuality (gay or straight) is caused primarily by genetics.

Most people I heard say that they share similiar traits, but not exact. I also have not heard of any cases where one identical twin is gay, and the other isn't. You can't show any of that, and you are thus inferring bullshit.

Two of my friends are identical twins. One is gay. One is straight. There is your case of it. You can find many many more, I promise.

Identical twins share exact DNA. That is why there are cases where one twin commits a crime and DNA evidence links him to it but the police catch the other twin not realizing that they are twins. (Maybe I watch too much America's Most Wanted)

Christian Fundamentalists really have no right to dictate morality to other people who do not share their beliefs; everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion. In connection with the previous statement, not everyone recognizes the Bible as their holy scripture. Forcing someone to accept a document that has been modified countless times over centuries is...vlegh. Not that I have anything against Christian Fundamentalism, but one should formulate his own opinions based on well-thought principles. Not dictated ethics (I'm not saying the Bible is wrong, I'm just saying don't follow somebody else's ideas).


My apologies if I offended anyone...I sort of skimmed over the thread, so I could be off-kilter here...vlegh. *waits to be pelted with rotten vegetables*

No; twins are formed from a single egg that divdes into two eggs; both with the exact same genes. Both are from the same FERTILISED egg; thus being the same cell. Each cell in your body, divided from this egg, contains the exact same genetic information. Everywhere. I'm doing a biology course at Uni; don't cowtow me with a 'simplistic' view of genetics. Twins are identical; right down to the smallest allele. Prove me wrong.

That's where I come in. Identical twins are perfect copies, but fraternal twins aren't. They come from two eggs fertilized at the same time. With triplets, it could be three separate eggs, or two eggs where one split and the other didn't. I haven't completed high school yet, and I have had more knowledge of genetics than you for at least the last seven years. If you want to mention your education and things derived from it, you should be certain of the facts before making an idiot of yourself.

gayness has nuffing to do with genes its a life style chose no one is born gay and if they say they are then there stupid and shoudl be smacked up side the head now link has spokeinbg now give me some tang :)

Two of my friends are identical twins. One is gay. One is straight. There is your case of it. You can find many many more, I promise.

Identical twins share exact DNA. That is why there are cases where one twin commits a crime and DNA evidence links him to it but the police catch the other twin not realizing that they are twins. (Maybe I watch too much America's Most Wanted)

Still doesn't prove it is not genetic because once they split, anything can happen. You know what? I still stand by that sexuality is primarily genetic and I won't move from that position.

That's where I come in. Identical twins are perfect copies, but fraternal twins aren't. They come from two eggs fertilized at the same time. With triplets, it could be three separate eggs, or two eggs where one split and the other didn't. I haven't completed high school yet, and I have had more knowledge of genetics than you for at least the last seven years. If you want to mention your education and things derived from it, you should be certain of the facts before making an idiot of yourself.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9410892&postcount=103

Now; if you'd like to prove the Identical Twin thing (Since this debate hinged on IDENTICAL TWINS, and since that was the subject matter I assumed those involved in the conversation would realise that and not start nit-picking with things that have nothing to do with the debate. If Fraternal twins had different sexualities, whoop! That'd be score one for homosexual genes. The identical one however; shows that its not entirely down to genes.

Identical twins must have the EXACT same genetics. There will not be a single gene different. Otherwise, they aren't twins. So no, I am not wrong.


Incorrect. Identical twins begin with the exact same genetics. However, epigenetic changes, selection of genes that are turned off/on, differences in cell division - these things will affect the genetics of the twins differently.

It is even possible, although unlikely, for identical twins to be born as different sexes. This can occur if a division in one of them early on is uneven, removing a sex chromosome from the majority of the eventual cells in that twin.

Again, biology is not as simple as you think.

TheMilleniumGroup]No; twins are formed from a single egg that divdes into two eggs; both with the exact same genes. Both are from the same FERTILISED egg; thus being the same cell. Each cell in your body, divided from this egg, contains the exact same genetic information. Everywhere. I'm doing a biology course at Uni; don't cowtow me with a 'simplistic' view of genetics. Twins are identical; right down to the smallest allele. Prove me wrong.

If you really think that every cell in your body contains the "exact same genetic information," you are still working off an incredibly simple version of genetics. You are also ignoring epigenetic traits and alterations that occur to the DNA after fertilization and twinning. You are ignoring the possibilities of things like chimerism and improper division.

In other words, you are simplifying biology to a grade-school level.

If you ever read my arguments, you would notice I consistently say sexuality (gay or straight) is caused primarily by genetics.

Well, then we're in agreement, as the evidence I've looked at makes that certainly seem most likely. :)

What happened in my early child hood? Nothing out of the ordinary. So I don't think you have much of an argument to stand on. Developed slightly differently in what way? Hormones? can you prove it?

I am not saying anything out of the ordinary happened. That would mean I was suggesting it was environmental, which I do not believe. I am saying that you developed slightly differently. And yes, I meant hormones, like I said. I cannot prove it. It is my personal theory. But you cannot prove genetics either. At least not right now. Maybe given some time they will prove my theory right, and maybe they will prove it wrong. But for right now, that is what I believe causes people to be homosexual over heterosexual.

Just curious - from a medical standpoint, if homosexuality is genetic, and the parents are not themselves homosexual, does that make homosexuals, by definition, mutants?

I am not saying anything out of the ordinary happened. That would mean I was suggesting it was environmental, which I do not believe. I am saying that you developed slightly differently. And yes, I meant hormones, like I said. I cannot prove it. It is my personal theory. But you cannot prove genetics either. At least not right now. Maybe given some time they will prove my theory right, and maybe they will prove it wrong. But for right now, that is what I believe causes people to be homosexual over heterosexual.

I do not believe your argument and I won't believe in it. I can provide studies showing the primary factor of homosexuality is genetic. Maybe they will prove it wrong? Not good enough.

Just curious - from a medical standpoint, if homosexuality is genetic, and the parents are not themselves homosexual, does that make homosexuals, by definition, mutants?

No.

I was talking about mono-zygotic twins. Hence IDENTICAL TWINS. Not Fraternal Twins.

Should have specified. :headbang:

Just curious - from a medical standpoint, if homosexuality is genetic, and the parents are not themselves homosexual, does that make homosexuals, by definition, mutants?

No. Read previous posts on this thread, which discuss recessive genes and polygenic traits. :)

I do not believe your argument and I won't believe in it. I can provide studies showing the primary factor of homosexuality is genetic. Maybe they will prove it wrong? Not good enough.

That's fine. You don't have to believe it. Just like I am not obligated to believe your theories. I am merely telling my point of view since I cannot represent anyone else's.

Again it is called recessive traits. If you cannot understanding please leave this thread. Genetics plays the biggest part. You're nothing more then a troll. And you should be regarded as such.
So you are finally acknowledging that there are other factors besides genetics?

That's fine. You don't have to believe it. Just like I am not obligated to believe your theories. I am merely telling my point of view since I cannot represent anyone else's.

Very well. Just understand this debate is very personal to me.. so i take my time on it..

Damn.. I must of been involved in like a dozen of these threads...

I am not saying anything out of the ordinary happened. That would mean I was suggesting it was environmental, which I do not believe. I am saying that you developed slightly differently. And yes, I meant hormones, like I said. I cannot prove it. It is my personal theory. But you cannot prove genetics either. At least not right now. Maybe given some time they will prove my theory right, and maybe they will prove it wrong. But for right now, that is what I believe causes people to be homosexual over heterosexual.

Studies have shown that hormones in utero seem to affect sexuality, so you aren't off too far.

The study which I have read, if I remember correctly, is referenced in this review:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10701766&query_hl=10

Unfortunately, I'm not at work, so I can't read it to be sure.

Just curious - from a medical standpoint, if homosexuality is genetic, and the parents are not themselves homosexual, does that make homosexuals, by definition, mutants?

No, read the rest of the thread to find out why.

Very well. Just understand this debate is very personal to me.. so i take my time on it..

Damn.. I must of been involved in like a dozen of these threads...

I understand that. For a long time I believed it to be genetic until I got in a debate with someone who made me start doubting it.

It is personal for me too. I am bisexual and if you want to find someone who people give less acceptance to than gays, be bisexual. Most people believe being bisexual just means I will fuck anything on legs.

I understand that. For a long time I believed it to be genetic until I got in a debate with someone who made me start doubting it.

It is personal for me too. I am bisexual and if you want to find someone who people give less acceptance to than gays, be bisexual. Most people believe being bisexual just means I will fuck anything on legs.

Right. I don't believe you really... but whatever..

Anyways..

Surprise, fucking surprise:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/roberts;_ylt=Ao.Z.Fafyw3kc3PeDX_uXC2s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3ODdxdHBhBHNlYwM5NjQ-

"A conservative group in Virginia said Tuesday it was withdrawing its support for Supreme Court nominee John Roberts' confirmation because of his work helping overturn a Colorado referendum on gays. "

Pardon my vulgarity..

Right. I don't believe you really... but whatever..

What is not to believe?

I understand that. For a long time I believed it to be genetic until I got in a debate with someone who made me start doubting it.

It is personal for me too. I am bisexual and if you want to find someone who people give less acceptance to than gays, be bisexual. Most people believe being bisexual just means I will fuck anything on legs.
I know ... some of the meanist people to us are homosexuals ... I have never seen so much anger

(straits more fear us ... we walk among them lol)

What is not to believe?

I don't believe you're bi.

And some of the meanest people to bisexuals are homosexuals? My One of my good friends is bisexual... I'm accepting of bisexuals. Now that would just be horribly hypocritical of me if I didn't accept them now wouldn't it?

I don't believe you're bi.

And some of the meanest people to bisexuals are homosexuals? My One of my good friends is bisexual... I'm accepting of bisexuals. Now that would just be horribly hypocritical of me if I didn't accept them now wouldn't it?
To me yes

Straits fear and dispize us ... but nothing like the seathing anger I see from some homosexuals

I am not saying more of them dislike us but thoes that do In my personal experience "feel" it deeper and it seems to cut deeper

I understand that. For a long time I believed it to be genetic until I got in a debate with someone who made me start doubting it.

What people have to realize is that suggesting that is 100% genetic probably isn't going to cut it, not with such a complex trait - one which exists along a spectrum. On the other hand, suggesting that it 0% genetic is equally goofy.

Let's take another trait that is somewhat complex, and exists along a spectrum: skin color. Skin color itself is controlled by no less than five genes, and is affected by numerous others. Epigenetic changes affect skin color. It is also affected by exposure to sunlight and chemicals.

And skin color isn't anywhere near as complicated a trait as sexuality. Why should sexuality be any different? Reading the research, sexuality is likely controlled to a large degree by genetics. Like anything, it may be affected by epigenetics. Studies have shown that hormone balances in the womb can affect it. Extremely early life experiences have not been shown to have an effect, but cannot be completely discounted.

However, whatever goes into it, it seems that sexuality is determined in a child before that child moves out of the toddler stage.

It is personal for me too. I am bisexual and if you want to find someone who people give less acceptance to than gays, be bisexual. Most people believe being bisexual just means I will fuck anything on legs.

Yeah, obviously it is impossible for someone who happens to feel attraction to both sexes to be anything but promiscuous, right?

To me yes

Straits fear and dispize us ... but nothing like the seathing anger I see from some homosexuals

I am not saying more of them dislike us but thoes that do In my personal experience "feel" it deeper and it seems to cut deeper

I'm 110% gay, but I have nothing against someone who has attractions to both genders. That's totally cool by me. So at least you know one gay guy who is accepting of bi guys..

Yeah, obviously it is impossible for someone who happens to feel attraction to both sexes to be anything but promiscuous, right?
Some I have talked to feel that way (both sides) but honestly we do get that a lot from homosexuals (mainly men) but thats just in my personal experience

I forsee fundamentalists Republicans suffering an aneurism.

Simply put,
Yes, we can now use genetic engineering to rid the world of homosexuality! Oh wait, genetic engineering is immoral - but how do we get rid of all the gays?! Now we're back at square one! *brain explodes*
that's where you're wrong. if Genetic Engineeering is immoral to a Fundamentalist Republican, then they wouldn't know about ridding the world of homosexuality because they wouldn't be following the progress of such immoral activities... unless they are sinning anyway... :D

It will be more like the other side going, now we can turn everyone Gay! :D

Some I have talked to feel that way (both sides) but honestly we do get that a lot from homosexuals (mainly men) but thats just in my personal experience

I've seen that too. For some reason, it seems to be easier for women to accept bisexuality.

I do still believe that much of the animosity on the gay male side comes from the fact that many gay men don't just jump out of the closet and say, "I'm gay and proud!" Many of them go through a stage where they say they are bisexual, or "just experimenting", because doing it slowly helps them ease their way out. Of course, then they end up thinking that everyone who claims bisexuality just hasn't figured out that they are gay yet.

I'm 110% gay, but I have nothing against someone who has attractions to both genders. That's totally cool by me. So at least you know one gay guy who is accepting of bi guys..
Hey there are some that love us dont get me wrong :fluffle: :fluffle: my last bf was gay

But I have met a few ... sheesh they seem so angry I dont know if they got burned by one of us or what

Maybe it hurts more because we are always fighting by your side and sometimes it suprizes us and feels more like a betrayl

We are used to having straits hate us or fear or whatever but it feels more hurtfull when we "take it" from the otherside so to speek

Hey there are some that love us dont get me wrong :fluffle: :fluffle: my last bf was gay

I had an ex who is bi, though he mainly went for guys.

Maybe it hurts more because we are always fighting by your side and sometimes it suprizes us and feels more like a betrayl

We are used to having straits hate us or fear or whatever but it feels more hurtfull when we "take it" from the otherside so to speek

Personally even if a bi guy I was seeing betrayed me and went for a girl.. well I would question his integrity, and not bisexual people as a whole.

I don't believe you're bi.

And some of the meanest people to bisexuals are homosexuals? My One of my good friends is bisexual... I'm accepting of bisexuals. Now that would just be horribly hypocritical of me if I didn't accept them now wouldn't it?

I find that rather odd, but whatever. You don't need to believe it.

No, read the rest of the thread to find out why.
So recessive gene traits are not considered mutations? Could you give me an example of what does constitute a mutant/mutation? This is really off the original topic, but I'm curious anyway...

I've seen that too. For some reason, it seems to be easier for women to accept bisexuality.

I do still believe that much of the animosity on the gay male side comes from the fact that many gay men don't just jump out of the closet and say, "I'm gay and proud!" Many of them go through a stage where they say they are bisexual, or "just experimenting", because doing it slowly helps them ease their way out. Of course, then they end up thinking that everyone who claims bisexuality just hasn't figured out that they are gay yet.
That deffinatly happens too

And the true bisexual male is rare but I seem to be

I waver based on the person ... Last one was a guy this one a girl (currently) 2 years with the guy and will be 2 in december with this girl as well

So not "sleeping" around and seem fairly stabily bisexual
Eh whatever

mutation is a change in the genetic code; recessive means it was already there at some point further back in the family tree :cool:

Personally even if a bi guy I was seeing betrayed me and went for a girl.. well I would question his integrity, and not bisexual people as a whole.
No no I did not mean cheating I ment when we get a rare gay that seems to have a hatred to us and attacks us specialy in discussion ...
for some reason hurts a lot more for me

No no I did not mean cheating I ment when we get a rare gay that seems to have a hatred to us and attacks us specialy in discussion ...
for some reason hurts a lot more for me

Well i have heard about that.. well I work in an LGBT Alliance at my campus which is working against that.

No no I did not mean cheating I ment when we get a rare gay that seems to have a hatred to us and attacks us specialy in discussion ...
for some reason hurts a lot more for me
I know some women who hate men... Not just dislike, but a real hatred for men.

I try not to be alone with them... or at least make sure that the sharp pointy stuff is well and truly locked away.


Seriously.

So recessive gene traits are not considered mutations? Could you give me an example of what does constitute a mutant/mutation? This is really off the original topic, but I'm curious anyway...

Barring abnormalities in fertilization/division, you get two copies of all autosomal chromosomes and two sex chromosomes (either XX or XY). In a recessive/dominant type of gene, there are different alleles - different specific sequences you can have at that gene location. A dominant allele (A) will be expressed if there is only one of them. A recessive gene (a) will be expressed only if you receive two copies - one from your mother and one from your father.

Edit: To clarify, in either case, we are talking about genes present in the genome of the parents. If someone is heterozygous for a gene in this category, Aa, then the dominant allele will determine the trait that is observed. If someone is homozygous for the dominant allele (AA), the dominant trait will be observed. Only if someone is homozygous for the recessive allele (aa) will the recessive trait be observed. However, even if someone is Aa, they can pass on only the recessive version of the gene. Thus, if both parents are Aa, they can each pass on a recessive gene, resulting in a child that is aa.

Of course, not all genes fall into the recessive/dominant category. In some cases, both will be expressed and will have different effects on physiology. In others, one gene or the other is randomly turned off, leaving the other to be expressed.

To be a mutation, a gene sequence has to be actually altered. Thus, what is present at the gene location in question is not found in either the mother or the father - it is an entirely new sequence (even if only changed by a single base in the chain). This could occur through damage to the DNA, improper copying that is not caught by the proofreading mechanisms, or improper crossover of genes during cell division (this refers to the two chromosomes "swapping" genes in the same location along the chromosome).

Any more questions?

I know some women who hate men... Not just dislike, but a real hatred for men.

I try not to be alone with them... or at least make sure that the sharp pointy stuff is well and truly locked away.


Seriously.
Yeah and I am used to strait men and women that hate me too for some reason it just seems to get under my "guard"

We spend so long figting side by side by some awsome homosexuals for our rights just trying to get the same freedoms and not be slammed. when you get one that has such a seething hatred for bisexuals it seems just more like a back stab
You are used to hearing that sort of thing from strait males so much that you forget that others can hate your guts too

Sorry I am not explaining this well

Well i have heard about that.. well I work in an LGBT Alliance at my campus which is working against that.
I did as well untill work got overwhelming

It happens more here online honestly but when someone does it just hurts

(btw I broke the 10 k post limit in this post) :fluffle:

Yeah and I am used to strait men and women that hate me too for some reason it just seems to get under my "guard"

We spend so long figting side by side by some awsome homosexuals for our rights just trying to get the same freedoms and not be slammed. when you get one that has such a seething hatred for bisexuals it seems just more like a back stab
You are used to hearing that sort of thing from strait males so much that you forget that others can hate your guts too

Sorry I am not explaining this well


That kind of stuff always bothers me. I don't mean this to sound racist, though it probably will, but I tend to get very upset with the large number of black people who are so against homosexuality/bisexuality and will gay bash. Many are very strongly against gay rights which I find odd considering the prejudice they have faced in the past.

Quit being hypocritical and accusing me of egotism, when you clearly want your sect which embraces homosexual activity to have the say in politics.
Neo, this statement was extremely offensive for one obvious reason--

Every citizen has the right to "have the say in politics". :rolleyes:

Just because you don't agree with them, doesn't make them a subclass with less of a "say" than you deserve. Whether we're talking about Christians or gays, everyone has the right to affect politics, and choose the respresentatives that most closely match their own values and ideals.
Sometimes I think you're entertaining. Other times you come off as just plain mean.

You should be ashamed of yourself for saying something so ignorant (and even for you, totally unexpected). :mad:

Most people, straight, gay or bi, hate me on sight! I'm an asshole, do I get a cookie? :p [j/k]

That kind of stuff always bothers me. I don't mean this to sound racist, though it probably will, but I tend to get very upset with the large number of black people who are so against homosexuality/bisexuality and will gay bash. Many are very strongly against gay rights which I find odd considering the prejudice they have faced in the past.



I doubt they would like having their legitimate rights movement compared to the sinful rights movement.

I doubt they would like having their legitimate rights movement compared to the sinful rights movement.

Whites thought during the civil rights movement that the blacks were completely out of line and that they didn't deserve the rights they felt they deserved. Now it is the same way just with straights against gays. After this one is resolved, there will be another.

Nite all. If anyone has any questions, post them, but feel free to TG me as well.

If there are papers you are interested in reading and they aren't in journals that are too obscure, I can probably get access to them. TG me and I'll try to send them along.

That kind of stuff always bothers me. I don't mean this to sound racist, though it probably will, but I tend to get very upset with the large number of black people who are so against homosexuality/bisexuality and will gay bash. Many are very strongly against gay rights which I find odd considering the prejudice they have faced in the past.
I dont get it either

Whites thought during the civil rights movement that the blacks were completely out of line and that they didn't deserve the rights they felt they deserved. Now it is the same way just with straights against gays. After this one is resolved, there will be another.
Can I point out that not all whites were against black rights, just like not all straights are against gay rights...

Whites thought during the civil rights movement that the blacks were completely out of line and that they didn't deserve the rights they felt they deserved. Now it is the same way just with straights against gays. After this one is resolved, there will be another.



But practicing the act blackosexuality is not an abomination unto God ;)


Unlike the Civil Rights movement, there is legitimate reason to oppose this.

That kind of stuff always bothers me. I don't mean this to sound racist, though it probably will, but I tend to get very upset with the large number of black people who are so against homosexuality/bisexuality and will gay bash. Many are very strongly against gay rights which I find odd considering the prejudice they have faced in the past.

unfortunately often people have an us/them mentality; when something is not directed at "you" specifically you assume its someone else's job to correct. i quickly link this to the idea of capitalism because it is self-centered and there is no looking out for anyone or even the system unless it benifits "you". (i'm a stout commy)

Whites thought during the civil rights movement that the blacks were completely out of line and that they didn't deserve the rights they felt they deserved. Now it is the same way just with straights against gays. After this one is resolved, there will be another.
Always is ... though a lot of people never see the glaring simmilarities

But practicing the act blackosexuality is not an abomination unto God ;)


Unlike the Civil Rights movement, there is legitimate reason to oppose this.
Uh, shouldn't you, as a Christian, be more about forgiving them than condemning them and denying them rights?

Yeah and I am used to strait men and women that hate me too for some reason it just seems to get under my "guard"

We spend so long figting side by side by some awsome homosexuals for our rights just trying to get the same freedoms and not be slammed. when you get one that has such a seething hatred for bisexuals it seems just more like a back stab
You are used to hearing that sort of thing from strait males so much that you forget that others can hate your guts too

Sorry I am not explaining this well
Actually I can understand that. For me, I don't care who you want to sleep with.
but I know some that use their preference to "shock" others.
they try to lump all heterosexual people as being Anti-gay, just like they try to lump all Christians as anti-gay.
at times tho, they tend to forget that not everyone fits the general group.

and this is an issue that isn't easlily definable like race or sex, you cannot look at a person and assume they're gay or not.

In this fight for equality, many friendlies are fired upon by people they fight for. All I can say is, be true to yourself. for the only one who can really judge you is God, and not man.

(and if you're not religous, then you answer to no one but yourself.)

But practicing the act blackosexuality is not an abomination unto God ;)


Unlike the Civil Rights movement, there is legitimate reason to oppose this.
Ohhh there were plenty of people using religion to prove the lack of humanity of black people ...

in some way a lot of the time religon tends to get tied up justifying the status quo

When we finaly get over this rights movement it will look just as silly to a lot (though not to all ... there are still a few that get stuck back in "thoes upity blacks" mentality even yet)

But practicing the act blackosexuality is not an abomination unto God ;)


Unlike the Civil Rights movement, there is legitimate reason to oppose this.

They used all kinds of explanations to justify their hatred. Now many straights will use all kinds of rationalizations to justify theirs.

I was wanting to ask you this actually. I know that Leviticus is mostly outdated and that it was ways to teach people sanitation and just ways of life but how come people can recognize that the book is outdated and yet still quote it for homosexuality? If not eating shellfish and monitoring the way you sacrifice various different animals is outdated, why might not the evilness of homosexuality also be outdated?

Uh, shouldn't you, as a Christian, be more about forgiving them than condemning them and denying them rights?


If they repent then yes. Jesus said "if a brother repents, forgive him." He didn't just say to forgive him unconditionally.

They used all kinds of explanations to justify their hatred. Now many straights will use all kinds of rationalizations to justify theirs.

I was wanting to ask you this actually. I know that Leviticus is mostly outdated and that it was ways to teach people sanitation and just ways of life but how come people can recognize that the book is outdated and yet still quote it for homosexuality? If not eating shellfish and monitoring the way you sacrifice various different animals is outdated, why might not the evilness of homosexuality also be outdated?



Because of Romans 1.

But practicing the act blackosexuality is not an abomination unto God ;)


Unlike the Civil Rights movement, there is legitimate reason to oppose this.


Gays were made by God to so i guess they aren't an abomination... its just the catholic churches response that lable them thus. p.s. yes i suppose lucifer was one of god's creations but so are we.... who gets to choose which is the abomination... maybe human kind is an abomination? maybe the earth is an abomination.. we ought to have a nuclear holocaust to rid the calaxy of our abominable selves... :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle:

If they repent then yes. Jesus said "if a brother repents, forgive him." He didn't just say to forgive him unconditionally.
The onlyone I theoredicaly have to repent to is god not you
So just assume I am forgiven

Ohhh there were plenty of people using religion to prove the lack of humanity of black people ...

in some way a lot of the time religon tends to get tied up justifying the status quo

When we finaly get over this rights movement it will look just as silly to a lot (though not to all ... there are still a few that get stuck back in "thoes upity blacks" mentality even yet)



You wish, there are still decent people left who will fight against this travesty of marriage.

The onlyone I theoredicaly have to repent to is god not you
So just assume I am forgiven

Exactly!

If they repent then yes. Jesus said "if a brother repents, forgive him." He didn't just say to forgive him unconditionally.
But it's not really your place to judge them either way, isn't that God's job?

BTW, do you abhor the eating of shellfish as much as you abhor homosexuality? Theyt are both mentioned in the same book as sins...:D

http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/

The onlyone I theoredicaly have to repent to is god not you
So just assume I am forgiven



If you are truly repentant, you won't continue to live a sinful life. You will try your best to not do it again.

You wish, there are still decent people left who will fight against this travesty of marriage.
There are still people fighting against the travisty of interracial marrige too :p hopefully you will be looked uppon in the same light

If you are truly repentant, you won't continue to live a sinful life. You will try your best to not do it again.
Nope god told me he is cool with that ... I have absolute faith in god as revieled to me

The onlyone I theoredicaly have to repent to is god not you
So just assume I am forgiven
umm... only if you ask God... and if you honest about repenting...

It's like a child who asks for forgiveness for stealing, then goes out and steals again, then asks for forgiveness, then steals again, then says sorry, then steals again...

eventually you are not repenting, but just going through the motions. and that too is a sin.

but as you say that's between you and God.

But it's not really your place to judge them either way, isn't that God's job?

BTW, do you abhor the eating of shellfish as much as you abhor homosexuality? Theyt are both mentioned in the same book as sins...:D

http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/


Sorry, that's one of the most common assertions made by the world towards Christianity, and it's based upon one false supposition: We are not under the old law anymore. The new law dictates our lives now, and it condemns homosexuality, unlike shellfish and mixed garments.

If you are truly repentant, you won't continue to live a sinful life. You will try your best to not do it again.

Why don't you just go with the whole "thou shalt not judge" thing and allow them all the rights of everyone else while on earth. If it turns out that homosexuality is wrong, they will pay for it on judgement day.

god told me i'm the fourth messiah :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle:

Nope god told me he is cool with that ... I have absolute faith in god as revieled to me
then feel secure in your faith my friend. and God Bless. :)

Nope god told me he is cool with that ... I have absolute faith in god as revieled to me



Backed up by thousands of years of history, prophecies that came true, miracles, and an astoundingly accurate record of people, places, and events?

We wouldn't be affected by it at all. Many people have a genetic predisposition to sinful behavior, such as alchoholism.

or religion.

then feel secure in your faith my friend. and God Bless. :)
Naw in truth I guess I have faith that if there is an all loving god he will know I am a good person and take care of me in the end

He will know me inside and out and relize my feelings and my loves

He is a good person if he exists (I guess I am finding myself more deist agnostic then atheist latly)

Sorry, that's one of the most common assertions made by the world towards Christianity, and it's based upon one false supposition: We are not under the old law anymore. The new law dictates our lives now, and it condemns homosexuality, unlike shellfish and mixed garments.
So basically, you chose what to follow, and disregard what doesn't suit you...

Why don't you just go with the whole "thou shalt not judge" thing and allow them all the rights of everyone else while on earth. If it turns out that homosexuality is wrong, they will pay for it on judgement day.



"Thou shalt not judge"...funny, I don't seem to remember that. Maybe you're referring to Matthew 7:1, which seems to be taken out of context all the time.

god told me i'm the fourth messiah :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle:
i predicted the next time it rained that the pool water level would rise

Backed up by thousands of years of history, prophecies that came true, miracles, and an astoundingly accurate record of people, places, and events?
Nope with a more personal feeling ... he will take care of me ... he loves me

So basically, you chose what to follow, and disregard what doesn't suit you...



No, if Christ didn't abolish the Mosaic Law, then I wouldn't be eating shrimp (yucky anyways) or wearing polyester....but, fact is, He did. Read it before you use it against me.

Naw in truth I guess I have faith that if there is an all loving god he will know I am a good person and take care of me in the end

He will know me inside and out and relize my feelings and my loves

He is a good person if he exists (I guess I am finding myself more deist agnostic then atheist latly)or perhaps he might introduce to you people who will try to steer you to the right path. the hard part tho is hearing those people over the... err...




Noise. >.<

Nope with a more personal feeling ... he will take care of me ... he loves me

that reminds me strangly of the suicide bomber mentality... o well blind devotion is good for the person that follows it

or perhaps he might introduce to you people who will try to steer you to the right path. the hard part tho is hearing those people over the... err...




Noise. >.<
No ... Im sorry christianity and organized religion is out for me ... I have had the organization hurt me more then once I wont be suckered again sorry

i predicted the next time it rained that the pool water level would rise



Very specific prophecies which had an profoundly improbability of occurrence.

that reminds me strangly of the suicide bomber mentality... o well blind devotion is good for the person that follows it
Naw I just have a feeling that if god exists he will take care of us ... if not thats alright cause he probably does not give a damn about ceramony or such so we wont have wased our lives on it

Very specific prophecies which had an profoundly improbability of occurrence.

and are recorded in an oral tradition until written however many hundreds of years later in babylon :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle:

and later changed and further edited by the catholic church

No ... Im sorry christianity and organized religion is out for me ... I have had the organization hurt me more then once I wont be suckered again sorry



What happened to you was appalling, but remember that the religion itself did not foster sin, it was man's wicked nature. Give credit where credit is due: the individual who committed the act.

Neo Rogolia- I have been following your posts to some extent and I am just curious how old you are and if you have ever extensively researched other religions/tried any other religions/been athiest?

I know you have made comments about athiesm being a fad that young people like to partake in during their rebellion, and that most will drop it after awhile. Do you completely disregard the idea that maybe, just maybe, they could be right?

No, if Christ didn't abolish the Mosaic Law, then I wouldn't be eating shrimp (yucky anyways) or wearing polyester....but, fact is, He did. Read it before you use it against me.
So you follow EVERY rule layed down by the bible, except what Christ abolished? All of it? You know, if I could really be bothered, I'd dig up some pretty bizarre and esoteric rules and regulations you'd have to follow.

Anyway, why must you always drag religion into debates which are clearly not anything to do with religion? This thread is about homosexuality and genetics, not homosexuality and the teaching of bronze age tribesmen...

I doubt they would like having their legitimate rights movement compared to the sinful rights movement.

You make me sick.

For one, there isn't anything sinful about the GLBT rights movement.. it is legitimate.. and for the rights of gay people. And who the hell are you to reject civil rights equality for gay people?

and are recorded in an oral tradition until written however many hundreds of years later in babylon :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle:


http://www.100prophecies.org/

Neo Rogolia- I have been following your posts to some extent and I am just curious how old you are and if you have ever extensively researched other religions/tried any other religions/been athiest?

I know you have made comments about athiesm being a fad that young people like to partake in during their rebellion, and that most will drop it after awhile. Do you completely disregard the idea that maybe, just maybe, they could be right?

Neo knows little about atheism and humanism. She has issues with the fact that many are atheist and it isn't a fad. It is a reality. It isn't a rebellion. I never was christian to begin with. Most don't drop it. I don't know what her problem is, I'm guessing lack of tolerance of other views.

Gays are people trans are people whites are people, blacks are people.... why do we even make a destinction? :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle:

What happened to you was appalling, but remember that the religion itself did not foster sin, it was man's wicked nature. Give credit where credit is due: the individual who committed the act.
Yes and the organization that was in itself used to hide him for 20 years before he got to me

And the bishop that threatened to condem a 6th graders family to hell if he told another soul

Im sorry I may be warped but I cant swallow it I have spent 9 + years attempting for my family

Every denomination and hosts of churches and prayer groups

In the end I dont buy it

You make me sick.

For one, there isn't anything sinful about the GLBT rights movement.. it is legitimate.. and for the rights of gay people. And who the hell are you to reject civil rights equality for gay people?


Equal civil rights? Gay marriage is not marriage! It's a mockery of an age-old institution! Your evil agenda will not go unopposed, not while there's breath in me!

No ... Im sorry christianity and organized religion is out for me ... I have had the organization hurt me more then once I wont be suckered again sorry
I remember you saying something like that a while back.
but also, I am not talking about the "Organization" but God himself.
you say you love him and he will take care of you. That also means guiding you. and there are other... Organizations that are not Catholic.
I myself was raised Baptist, and tried the Catholic and other variants of Christianity. Now I just read the Bible and pray. When asked, I just say I am a Christian.

Here on the threads I learned alot, both good and bad things. but also I made friends. Some helped me with personal problems, some I hope I helped. but I say it was god's hand that guided me to these people here and now I am learning more.

I shall stop now... getting to preachy. I hope you do find your way tho and hope God helps you forgive those that wronged you.

Equal civil rights? Gay marriage is not marriage! It's a mockery of an age-old institution! Your evil agenda will not go unopposed, not while there's breath in me!
Thats fine ... we are winning :) (hint canada and spain) :fluffle: :fluffle:

Neo knows little about atheism and humanism. She has issues with the fact that many are atheist and it isn't a fad. It is a reality. It isn't a rebellion. I never was christian to begin with. Most don't drop it. I don't know what her problem is, I'm guessing lack of tolerance of other views.



I wish I had your psychic, mind-reading powers. :rolleyes:

Neo knows little about atheism and humanism. She has issues with the fact that many are atheist and it isn't a fad. It is a reality. It isn't a rebellion. I never was christian to begin with. Most don't drop it. I don't know what her problem is, I'm guessing lack of tolerance of other views.


Well I agree many teenagers adopt athiesm to be rebellious. I think it is becoming a bit of a fad. But athiesm is the only religion I have yet to find that has made any sense.

Equal civil rights? Gay marriage is not marriage! It's a mockery of an age-old institution! Your evil agenda will not go unopposed, not while there's breath in me!

this is the point where i ask you how old you are and you say "i'll keel over any day now, because of all this evilness in the world" :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle:

Thats fine ... we are winning :) (hint canada and spain) :fluffle: :fluffle:



And you will get your just desserts.

Equal civil rights? Gay marriage is not marriage! It's a mockery of an age-old institution! Your evil agenda will not go unopposed, not while there's breath in me!
I think you'd be less uptight if you were a lesbian. :)

Equal civil rights? Gay marriage is not marriage! It's a mockery of an age-old institution! Your evil agenda will not go unopposed, not while there's breath in me!

I'm not talking about only marriage. I'm talking about civil rights in general. My evil agenda? You are the one who is with the evil agenda.. you are steering this country towards national socialism! I will oppose your evil, evil agenda and push my good decent agenda that will treat many millions of gay americans with respect.

This is about my democratic rights, and you are putting them under fire.

If they repent then yes. Jesus said "if a brother repents, forgive him." He didn't just say to forgive him unconditionally.


Although that particular work of semi historical fiction
also says

judge not lest you be judged

and also

he who is without sin should cast the first stone

the latest harry potter book
has a great deal to say about the power of love to defeat evil


and the lord of the rings has much to say about
the importance of friendship and trust

there are little tidbits of sense to be found in just about any book
even the pulp paper pornographic works

but to turn to any of them for directions on how you should live your
life or treat other people is an act suitable only for the dimwitted
as there is not one of them which cannot be used by those with
power cravings and petty bitterness to encourage one group
of people to pick on another group of people for their shortcomings.

As Garfield said
If I had a gap like that between my teeth, I'd be sensitive about it too.


lastly
do not forget

it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle
then to get the blooming thread through it.

I remember you saying something like that a while back.
but also, I am not talking about the "Organization" but God himself.
you say you love him and he will take care of you. That also means guiding you. and there are other... Organizations that are not Catholic.
I myself was raised Baptist, and tried the Catholic and other variants of Christianity. Now I just read the Bible and pray. When asked, I just say I am a Christian.

Here on the threads I learned alot, both good and bad things. but also I made friends. Some helped me with personal problems, some I hope I helped. but I say it was god's hand that guided me to these people here and now I am learning more.

I shall stop now... getting to preachy. I hope you do find your way tho and hope God helps you forgive those that wronged you.


Ive forgiven them but Ive never forgotten what the whole network had done

I may one day believe but it will probably be a long time from now that I trust matters of faith on anything other then my feelings

I have been betrayed one too many times ... its like someone that had been raped ... its hard to ever let someone else in that position to harm you again

Well I agree many teenagers adopt athiesm to be rebellious. I think it is becoming a bit of a fad. But athiesm is the only religion I have yet to find that has made any sense.

Fallacy number one) Atheism is a religion

Fallacy number two) Atheism is a fad

No, no, no. Atheism is not a religion. Nor is it a fad.

No ... Im sorry christianity and organized religion is out for me ... I have had the organization hurt me more then once I wont be suckered again sorry

Don't go to the church, go to Jesus.

And you will get your just desserts.
Yup heaven cause god loves loving people :fluffle: :fluffle: (assuming existance of a deity)

I think you'd be less uptight if you were a lesbian. :)


Yes, the wicked have it easy in this life, but I look to realms above ;)

Equal civil rights? Gay marriage is not marriage! It's a mockery of an age-old institution! Your evil agenda will not go unopposed, not while there's breath in me!
LOL - do you know how ridiculous you sound to any rational person? You have about as much credibility as someone wandering the street, ringing a bell and wearing a "The end is nigh!" placard around your shoulders. You have obviously been thoroughly "indoctrinated" (read brainwashed) by your denomination - I bet you are a reborn Christian? They usually seem to be the most fervent with their dogma. I bet you were actually disappointed when the apocalypse didn't start on Jan 1st, 2000...

I'm not talking about only marriage. I'm talking about civil rights in general. My evil agenda? You are the one who is with the evil agenda.. you are steering this country towards national socialism! I will oppose your evil, evil agenda and push my good decent agenda that will treat many millions of gay americans with respect.

This is about my democratic rights, and you are putting them under fire.

don't throw this sort of thinking on the national socialists

And you will get your just desserts.
Neo Rogolia... I think you need to change your tactics.

I am reading alot of spite and hatred in your posts. not a way to convince people in debates. especially when it's values related.

Well at least I have Spain that respects my civil rights.. a great nation...

Don't go to the church, go to Jesus.
If my heart says yes at some later date I just might ... but right now it is telling me that something is up there something is wrong with how people are telling me it

Again one too many times letting someone esle tell me what was right and it fucking me over litteraly

I got to depend on my feelings in this matter I dont have a choice

Fallacy number one) Atheism is a religion

Fallacy number two) Atheism is a fad

No, no, no. Atheism is not a religion. Nor is it a fad.



There are the intellectual atheists who have long opposed Christianity based on human reasoning (ultimately flawed) and then there are the inconoclastic, rebellious teenagers, young adults doing it just to be "cool."

Well at least I have Spain that respects my civil rights.. a great nation...
Dont forget canada!

Yes, the wicked have it easy in this life, but I look to realms above ;)
I can imagine you as a lesbian, believe it or not. You would be rather striking.

But practicing the act blackosexuality is not an abomination unto God ;)


Unlike the Civil Rights movement, there is legitimate reason to oppose this.

Look up the history of miscegenation laws sometime. A whole heck of a lot of people used to argue that "blackosexuality" was, indeed, an abomination against God, and they used almost exactly the same rhetoric that's being used today to condemn gay marriage.

Neo Rogolia... I think you need to change your tactics.

I am reading alot of spite and hatred in your posts. not a way to convince people in debates. especially when it's values related.



Not hatred, I worry about them. It's just frustration at their stubborn refusal to yield to God, not knowing what they're doing to themselves.

Fallacy number one) Atheism is a religion

Fallacy number two) Atheism is a fad

No, no, no. Atheism is not a religion. Nor is it a fad.

Athiesm is a religion. And it isn't a fad but it is beginning to look like one.

There are the intellectual atheists who have long opposed Christianity based on human reasoning (ultimately flawed) and then there are the inconoclastic, rebellious teenagers, young adults doing it just to be "cool."

Your views are less attractive then that pile of manure on the sidewalk. The ultimately flawed thinking is from you.. your illogical thought-process of accusing anybody who doesn't think like you as immature.

I'm not doing it just to be cool.. i'm doing it to oppose tyranny and fascism that you spew.

Not hatred, I worry about them. It's just frustration at their stubborn refusal to yield to God, not knowing what they're doing to themselves.
That or knowing exactly what we are doing as much as you do in this life anyways but not following what you see

Got to be awful frustrating seeing people finding happyness in this life and no proof that the got their "just deserts" that you think they deserve in the other

.. i'm doing it to oppose tyranny and fascism that you spew.
So, you're doing it to be cool?

Equal civil rights? Gay marriage is not marriage! It's a mockery of an age-old institution! Your evil agenda will not go unopposed, not while there's breath in me!


The age old institution where the property of the father
became the property of the husband, once suitable financial arrangements
were made.

Slavery is also an age old institution.

Prostitution too.

Beating children both at home and at school has a good lot of tradition
behind it too.

Prejudice is something that has been with the human race since day one,
congratulations in your work to keep it alive.

Look up the history of miscegenation laws sometime. A whole heck of a lot of people used to argue that "blackosexuality" was, indeed, an abomination against God, and they used almost exactly the same rhetoric that's being used today to condemn gay marriage.


You cannot compare the two. If you're referring to the curse placed upon Ham, remember that that is pure speculation, and still would not justify repression of that which is not sinful. This, on the other hand, is clearly condemned by God.

Athiesm is a religion. And it isn't a fad but it is beginning to look like one.

Atheism is not a religion. How can it be a religion? It isn't an organized religion, nor do I belong to any church or group.

And it is no fad. Nor is it beginning to look like one. It is meant to oppose christian fascism.

Get your facts right.

Athiesm is a religion. And it isn't a fad but it is beginning to look like one.
No it is a belief not a religion it does not meet the requirements in of itself

So, you're doing it to be cool?

Fuck no.

I'm doing it because it is what I stand for. Just like anybody else would.

Fuck no.

I'm doing it because it is what I stand for. Just like anybody else would.
I should try that some time.

The age old institution where the property of the father
became the property of the husband, once suitable financial arrangements
were made.

Slavery is also an age old institution.

Prostitution too.

Beating children both at home and at school has a good lot of tradition
behind it too.

Prejudice is something that has been with the human race since day one,
congratulations in your work to keep it alive.



Yes, those were sinful practices and deserved abolition. Just like homosexuality.

Ive forgiven them but Ive never forgotten what the whole network had done

I may one day believe but it will probably be a long time from now that I trust matters of faith on anything other then my feelings

I have been betrayed one too many times ... its like someone that had been raped ... its hard to ever let someone else in that position to harm you again
I understand that. tho I do not share your experieces. You may have forgiven them, why can you not forgive God. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it does seem like you blame God for what was done to you and that you still haven't forgiven him. It was man that hurt you and now, because the church chose to hide the sin, the church was hit hard with the scandal and they still feel the effects. Perhaps the Grace of God is moving from the Catholic Church but not from those who follow him.

I have to go, but if you wish to continue talking without the noise, Feel free to TG me.

for some reason, while I try to stay away from religious debates, I'm kinda drawn into this one... the conversation and not the thread...

Athiesm is a religion. And it isn't a fad but it is beginning to look like one.
Excuse me, atheism is not a religion. It may be a belief system, but not a religion. To rip off a great quote "Calling atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color"...

Yes, those were sinful practices and deserved abolition. Just like homosexuality.
So we have to get rid of the homosexuals?

Yes, those were sinful practices and deserved abolition. Just like homosexuality.

You will not stop me from being gay. You never will, you never can and guess what? Over my dead body!

The only thing that needs abolition is your awful, dictator like beliefs.

Atheism is not a religion. How can it be a religion? It isn't an organized religion, nor do I belong to any church or group.

And it is no fad. Nor is it beginning to look like one. It is meant to oppose christian fascism.

Get your facts right.

You don't have to go to a church. Athiesm is a religion with one rule: you believe in no gods. If you believe in no gods, you subscribe to athiesm.

Maybe it isn't beginning to look like a fad to you, but there are people who are denouncing god in their typical teenage rebellion, which in my eyes is beginning to look like a fad. Just like there are people who don't trully believe in their religion for other religions but follow it because they don't know how to do otherwise.

You cannot compare the two. If you're referring to the curse placed upon Ham, remember that that is pure speculation, and still would not justify repression of that which is not sinful. This, on the other hand, is clearly condemned by God.

I'm not referring to the Noah story specifically; I've never investigated which specific biblical passages the anti-miscegenation supporters used. Just, seriously, look up the history sometime. I promise you that a few decades ago, people were saying that interracial marriage was clearly condemned by God.

Allow me to just say that... Atheism isn't a religion.

And honestly... can't this debate just die? No one who doesn't already think one way is ever going to be swayed. Homosexuality must be genetic. There is no other LOGICAL explaination. You know why?

Think about it: If homosexuality were an act of will; a CONSCIOUS, ACTIVE DECISION... WHY the hell would anyone /CHOOSE/ to be homosexual considering the stigma it carries with it? Do you people understand how many people have been driven to suicide because they were homosexual? Do you even understand that concept? If it were an act of will, one could VERY EASILY make all of that go away and simply CHOOSE to be a heterosexual. It's not a cry for attention as I've often heard some people refer to it, and to claim it is... is absolutely ridiculous.

I'm asexual, and I'm also an atheist. Why am I an atheist, you might ask? Because I simply cannot find any merit in outdated dogma. I live my life as I will, and try my best to avoid harming any other person, and that's all I can really ask of anyone else. Religions can keep their promises of wonderful afterlives as a reward of pious living. I don't want an afterlife.

So, to conclude, I'm asking you all, BEGGING you all to just drop the issue and give it a rest. There's no sense in beating a dead horse, no one will change their mind EVER, no matter what. Just live and let live. Homosexuality shouldn't bother anyone in the slightest. Big deal, so a man prefers to be intimate with other men, a woman prefers to be intimate with other women, I prefer not to be intimate at all. WHY DO ANY OF YOU CARE?! If it /disgusts/ you, YOU DON'T HAVE TO WATCH THEM GO AT IT. But don't simply pretend that homosexuals don't EXIST. They do. No matter what, a human being is still a human being and has thoughts, hopes, dreams, feelings. And none of you have ANY right to take that away from someone, just because of something that makes them DIFFERENT or unpleasant in your tiny, skewed vision of the way things /should/ be.

Thank you. That will be all.

Yes, those were sinful practices and deserved abolition. Just like homosexuality.

So your not so much opposed to gay marriage as marriage in general?

Now that would put a different complexion on it.

You wouldn't come across as being blindly bigoted, just rather odd.

Your views are less attractive then that pile of manure on the sidewalk. The ultimately flawed thinking is from you.. your illogical thought-process of accusing anybody who doesn't think like you as immature.

I'm not doing it just to be cool.. i'm doing it to oppose tyranny and fascism that you spew.



And this is why the gay marriage movement is constantly ridiculed.

You don't have to go to a church. Athiesm is a religion with one rule: you believe in no gods. If you believe in no gods, you subscribe to athiesm.

You are full of it. I do not believe in anything and that is not a religion. I follow nothing. It isn't a religion. You need to get your definitions right.

Maybe it isn't beginning to look like a fad to you, but there are people who are denouncing god in their typical teenage rebellion, which in my eyes is beginning to look like a fad. Just like there are people who don't trully believe in their religion for other religions but follow it because they don't know how to do otherwise.

Those people don't understand anything about the reality and they are the ones who are starting to look like a fad. They accuse atheists of being immature or young.

And this is why the gay marriage movement is constantly ridiculed.

No. This is why you people are constantly ridiculed. You people are insults to science and everything... you are the ones who are ridiculed almost always..

So your not so much opposed to gay marriage as marriage in general?

Now that would put a different complexion on it.

You wouldn't come across as being blindly bigoted, just rather odd.



Blindly bigoted? If I was blindly bigoted, I was base my opinions upon my own personal hatred, not the word of God. Good grief it's annoying debating homosexual advocates, they spend so much effort with the ad hominem attacks and other methods of vilification instead of actually discussing the issues :rolleyes:

Not hatred, I worry about them. It's just frustration at their stubborn refusal to yield to God, not knowing what they're doing to themselves.
but that fustration is blinding you. causing you to lash out at every attack, untill you are lashing out blindly.

remember the other thread? you got off track and suddenly you broke the rules you were trying to defend?

when you feel yourself getting fustrated, back off. take a break, an hour or maybe a day. but seperate yourself and compose yourself. then look back at the responses and you will see that some don't need responding, and others need a different type of response.

most of the good debaters don't immediately reply. they back off, compose, then come back with more organization.

And this is why the gay marriage movement is constantly ridiculed.
Really? Because I thought it was because people put tradition ahead of freedom.