NationStates Jolt Archive

You didn't come here to make the choice, you've already made it. You're here to try to understand why you made it?

As humans have we made the choice to be on earth and live beforehand, and now we're trying to understand it?

Choice is an illusion, created between those with power, and those without.

could that be true too?

You didn't come here to make the choice, you've already made it. You're here to try to understand why you made it?

As humans have we made the choice to be on earth and live beforehand, and now we're trying to understand it?

Choice is an illusion, created between those with power, and those without.

could that be true too?
When you quote something, it's considered good form to cite your source.

Who knows if choice exists? We could simply be a collection of particles that function through deterministic or even probabilistic processes and our choice is simply the creation of those processes.

Someones been watching too much matrix, methinks. Besides, whats the point in worrying about it?

I think you wandered a little too far down the rabbit hole, neo.

Who knows if choice exists? We could simply be a collection of particles that function through deterministic or even probabilistic processes and our choice is simply the creation of those processes.

can you please explain yourself a little more.

You didn't come here to make the choice, you've already made it. You're here to try to understand why you made it?

As humans have we made the choice to be on earth and live beforehand, and now we're trying to understand it?

Choice is an illusion, created between those with power, and those without.

could that be true too?I came here because of Choice, I am replying because I choose to.
choice isn't an illusion, it's self determination. you only get one choice to make each time and once made, you cannot look back.

Choice isn't an Illusion, the Illusion is the idea that we can undo our choices.

can you please explain yourself a little more.
Sure, choice is usually seen as free will which is usually seen as something separate from the laws of the universe and created by a soul or spirit or anything that makes us different from a plant other than in complexity. If we are just a collection of particles without some non-physics nature to us then we might not really have free will, after all the deterministic or even the probabilistic actions of a few atoms in our brain do not create free-will because we have no control over what they do(unless the probabilistic actions are not probabilistic but are just the soul exerting its influence). I make reference to determinism and probabilistic processes because of the interpretations of quantum physics, some believe different things about the issue.

Pretty much my argument is that free-will and pure materialism can not really co-exist because under most systems of thought rocks, particles of matter, and most other things besides certain living objects with some level of higher thought do not have free-will.

As humans have we made the choice to be on earth and live beforehand, and now we're trying to understand it?

No, we evolved our way here from single celled organisms to complex entities through thousands of millenia of random gentic mutations that proved usefull in the procreation of life. But maybe I am misunderstanding your question.

No, we evolved our way here from single celled organisms to complex entities through thousands of millenia of random gentic mutations that proved usefull in the procreation of life. But maybe I am misunderstanding your question.

I was trying to surface the idea of religion, perhaps for different people they have different perspectives on how we came here, but it was my fault for not explaining the question enough, thanks for pointing that out though.

You didn't come here to make the choice, you've already made it. You're here to try to understand why you made it?

As humans have we made the choice to be on earth and live beforehand, and now we're trying to understand it?

Choice is an illusion, created between those with power, and those without.

could that be true too?

I choose to ignore your silly semantics.

I'll humor you.
No matter what you think, you chose to beleive that. if something influenced that choice, fine. If you honestly think that you make choices without influence, fine, although you might be a bit too egotistical for your own good.

Other than that, this whole thread is pretty meaningless.

Could Choice be also based on religion or what?

I refuse to recognize The Matrix II and III...except for the Dock Scene in III.

And so this is what we've come to -- philosophy as delivered in Keanu Reeves movies.

Who knows if choice exists? We could simply be a collection of particles that function through deterministic or even probabilistic processes and our choice is simply the creation of those processes.

But one is still choosing, even if that process is a matter of shifting particles.

But one is still choosing, even if that process is a matter of shifting particles.
We usually define choice by the fact that we are in control of the situation. If the particles are moving deterministically or possibly even probabilistically then the choice is not ours so much as it belongs to particles. This is especially true when I said deterministic processes, probabilistic processes might be open for choice if it were argued enough. Deterministic processes mean that we are not in control of our destiny and do not have free-will and therefore do not really make choices. A choice in a deterministic system is just an eventual conclusion, there is no choosing because your choice was never going to be different, in a deterministic system choosing to turn left is the same as choosing to obey gravity, it is simply what is going to happen.

Your initial post, Shedor, uses a quote to set a context for our having made choices we aren't aware of, perhaps for us to continually be doing so, yes? Or something like that. Anyhoo. I think the interesting connection between choice and power is the choice to be powerless, or not. Of course, there are conventional holders of power, but there are unconventional ways to exercise power as well; through collective action, collective inaction even, or even acting as a dignified individual and being as aware as possible about the power structure around you so that you can live in full consciousness and make conscientious choices.

We usually define choice by the fact that we are in control of the situation. If the particles are moving deterministically or possibly even probabilistically then the choice is not ours so much as it belongs to particles. This is especially true when I said deterministic processes, probabilistic processes might be open for choice if it were argued enough. Deterministic processes mean that we are not in control of our destiny and do not have free-will and therefore do not really make choices. A choice in a deterministic system is just an eventual conclusion, there is no choosing because your choice was never going to be different, in a deterministic system choosing to turn left is the same as choosing to obey gravity, it is simply what is going to happen.

But our minds ARE those particles. The actions the particles lead us to ARE our own decisions for this reason.

(For what it's worth, I don't accept that, but that's because I'm a dualist.)

So the question really is do human have the power or not? Are we creating the illusions or just a piece of something elses imagination.

So then if we are just an illusion when we as illusions dream are we like fussion creating more power?

But our minds ARE those particles. The actions the particles lead us to ARE our own decisions for this reason.

(For what it's worth, I don't accept that, but that's because I'm a dualist.)
Well choice comes from the duality not from the laws of nature. If we look at this from the view that things are deterministic and are materialistic then there is no more choice in a human than there is in a rock.

Well choice comes from the duality not from the laws of nature.

Well, yes, because in that case the soul has identity with the conscious entity.

If we look at this from the view that things are deterministic and are materialistic then there is no more choice in a human than there is in a rock.

I responded to that earlier.

A rock does not have identity with the things that make it move, nor is it conscious. The mind, even if it is merely particles, is still making choices, and it controls the body. Choice being material does not make it cease to be choice.