NationStates Jolt Archive

Now I have seen this idea that we created evil therefore it is not god inspired

One question

If we created evil by selecting to disobey god to eat of the fruit how was Satan … an animal or being that chose evil in trying to influence us to select evil, before we ate of the fruit and fell from grace

Evil was an option for the devil to choose (and he actively chose it before us) before we had the chance to “create it” therefore god or another being created it before the advent of man

Some say there is no such thing as evil.see linkage:mighty mighty linkage (http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp)


ok i know it's shown as false,but that doesn't mean it isn't a good arguement.it only means that einstein never astounded one of his teachers with it,which isn't the point.

the point is evil is just our term for an abscence of good,or god depending on your beliefs.

Oh and to clarify I'm a total atheist and think there is evil and it is our creation,just like good and everything in between.i was just offering an intersting arguement for discussion.playing devil's advocate if you will.

simple answer the devil isn't evil how would we know after all we’ve only heard this from "Gods" side

but evil doesn’t really exist we just brand things as bad like was Hitler evil if he only wanted to make a better world?

was Hitler evil if he only wanted to make a better world?


A better world for who?

A better world for who?

Him and his cronies. Well, Germany actually. He's an example of why extreme nationalists should never be tolerated.

Now I have seen this idea that we created evil therefore it is not god inspired

One question

If we created evil by selecting to disobey god to eat of the fruit how was Satan … an animal or being that chose evil in trying to influence us to select evil, before we ate of the fruit and fell from grace

Evil was an option for the devil to choose (and he actively chose it before us) before we had the chance to “create it” therefore god or another being created it before the advent of man

I think it goes a little deeper than that, but yes, i would agree with the idea that Satan is the original evil (or created the original evil, or whatever)....but man sure has helped it progress

the point is evil is just our term for an abscence of good,or god depending on your beliefs.

Yea, it's like 'Hot' and 'Cold'.

'Cold' doesn't exist in any sense aside from as a metaphysical term which can only be defined through the existence of heat.

When you want to decrease the heat of an object you simply transfer heat from one object to another. You can not add cold to an object, merely reduce or spread out heat.

Evil is but a trick of the mind when unwholesome acts are carried out.

For instance; Greed is often seen to be a bad emotion that should be removed from a persons character at all costs (should you be a moralistic person anyway).

Only without some level of greed making up your personality to some extent you would never feel the desire to retain anything at all. It's simply that you meet this aspect of your personality with accompanying it with compassion and caring for others needs and wants aswell as your own.

To take any aspect of reality to the extreme and try to overbear all other aspects is said to be unnatural, inhumain, or even evil by many faiths.

The fact that you can find this contradiction in a particular doctrine which some Christians abide by simply means that others who haven't had the intelligence to see the actuality of reality, have also had to create faulty logic to support extreme beliefs.

Misconceptions upon misconceptions.

actually, the snake wasn't evil. Satan was actually an angel, the first to fall. He was the angel of temptation, and was supposed to do that. God was angry because Satan apparently went to far in tempting humans with the snake thing.

I don't think Satan created evil. I think he was tricked or manipulated somehow by god to become evil. Why? Satan existed in the presence of god. He knew how powerfull god was. Why would he take the chance to try to overthrow god? I can see only two possible reasons.

1) God isn't omnipotent and omniscient. His power and knowledge are limited, therefore Satan beleived he could work behind god's back, consolidate his power and defeat god.

2) God somehow monkeyed with satan's mind and forced him to start a war in heaven for god's own purposes.

I think Satan might be a good guy! after all how many times has God committed Genocide? its like if we created a human clone would we have the right to kill it? of course but the Devil is the third party who feels sorrow for all those deaths and tried to put a stop to it (though I will have to look into Satanism to find out if the devil deserves such a bad rap)

I don't believe in "evil," just love and mistakes.

Now I have seen this idea that we created evil therefore it is not god inspired

That entire premise assumes that "evil" is a tangible thing - something that exists outside of action all on it's own.

It makes more sense to say that evil is the absence of or the step away from good - much like darkness is not a tangible thing, but is the absence of light.

If we created evil by selecting to disobey god to eat of the fruit how was Satan … an animal or being that chose evil in trying to influence us to select evil, before we ate of the fruit and fell from grace

To be completely technical, even in the story, Satan didn't do any such thing. The serpent tempted man. People have gone back and decided that the serpent was Satan, but there is no reason at all to believe that those who first told the story believed that. The ancient Hebrews didn't have any concept of a "Satan" as a force opposed to God until after the Babylonian exile - and the stories of Genesis seem to have been around before that.

Evil was an option for the devil to choose (and he actively chose it before us) before we had the chance to “create it” therefore god or another being created it before the advent of man

By many theological definitions, evil is anything that turns away from God (God being the ultimate good). Thus, anything that moves you away from God is evil. This definition of evil doesn't require that evil be "created" at all, although the possibility of moving away from God must be there for it to happen.

By many theological definitions, evil is anything that turns away from God (God being the ultimate good). Thus, anything that moves you away from God is evil. This definition of evil doesn't require that evil be "created" at all, although the possibility of moving away from God must be there for it to happen.
Exactly and this is usually countered with a “god is infinite good and did not create evil humans did”

No they CHOSE evil … evil was already “existent” (by proof of it being an option for the serpent)

Exactly and this is usually countered with a “god is infinite good and did not create evil humans did”

No they CHOSE evil … evil was already “existent” (by proof of it being an option for the serpent)

You aren't listening to what I am saying. There is no "existance" to evil by this definition. It cannot be "created". It can only be chosen.

Now, if you want to say that God made creation in such a way that the creations could choose evil, that would make sense with this definition. By the very definition of free will, one can choose to move away from God.

You aren't listening to what I am saying. There is no "existance" to evil by this definition. It cannot be "created". It can only be chosen.

Now, if you want to say that God made creation in such a way that the creations could choose evil, that would make sense with this definition. By the very definition of free will, one can choose to move away from God.
But by the act of god being who he is he by default “creates” an inside and an outside
Maybe not actively but just by being he is the source of good and the ultimate creator of evil

I know I am not stating it well but something has to be in existence for us to choose it … it exists because of god

Its like heat and cold (sort of) cold is just the absence of heat

But without heat there would be no cold as well (at least not in the current perception) because there would be nothing to compare it too

cold is only cold in refferance to heat

So you could say existance of heat creates cold

Let's see... should I tell them Satan isn't mentioned in the bible? Nah.

I'll just say God gave us free will.

Good and Evil are abstract ideas.

Not only that they are relative. What i would call "Evil" someone else might call "good" or not think twice about it. What is "Good" and what is "Evil" dempends on where and when you are.

I used to like to claim to be a Dualist (religion Dualist not someone who goes round fighting duals) in RE to annoy may teacher claiming there were two gods of equal power and the one who ruled here was the evil one. I dont think i ever actually believed it but it did get her annoyed.

Let's see... should I tell them Satan isn't mentioned in the bible? Nah.

I'll just say God gave us free will.
Which does not answer the overall question

Even assuming that the serpent is just that … a serpent it still managed to “choose” evil by attempting to subvert his creations

I used to like to claim to be a Dualist (religion Dualist not someone who goes round fighting duals) in RE to annoy may teacher claiming there were two gods of equal power and the one who ruled here was the evil one. I dont think i ever actually believed it but it did get her annoyed.

Considering Gnosticism's heyday was centuries ago, I'm not surprised. :)

I hate to sound like I'm bragging, but I'm a good person. I work with Doctors Without Borders in third world countries, helping to feed, clothe and educate those who cannot do it themselves. Yet I have absolutely no faith in any form of religion, including christianity. Ergo, I must be evil, since god is not present in my life. If evil is as evil does, and I'm evil, then helping the unfortunate must be evil. By the same note, since Jesus helped poor people all the time, he must be evil. And since Jesus apparently = god, then god must be evil.

The whole Evil = absence of god deal is based on christian religious doctrine, something that a great majority of the world's inhabitants don't believe in. If you wish to know what evil is in christianity, then feel free to ask it, but make sure everyone knows what you're talking about, lest you label a great majority of the world's population as evil, something I'm sure they wouldn't like.

Which does not answer the overall question

Even assuming that the serpent is just that … a serpent it still managed to “choose” evil by attempting to subvert his creations

If the question is "Does evil exist outside our ability to choose it?" that would depend highly on what you believe. You can read this thread and realize that we're not going to agree on that. :)

I'd say that evil exists in us, in that's it's an essental part of free will. If you don't have the will to choose, you don't have a choice and therefore no freedom of "Spirit". Since we can choose to do bad things, good things, or things we think are part of some grey ethical morass... We have the ability to choose to do evil. We create evil.

Is it a part of us? Yes. Where did we get this ability? We can argue it was the snake's fault, but it's better to say we chose this path that the snake offered us.

Now I have seen this idea that we created evil therefore it is not god inspired

One question

If we created evil by selecting to disobey god to eat of the fruit how was Satan … an animal or being that chose evil in trying to influence us to select evil, before we ate of the fruit and fell from grace

Evil was an option for the devil to choose (and he actively chose it before us) before we had the chance to “create it” therefore god or another being created it before the advent of man

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man" James 1:13

If the question is "Does evil exist outside our ability to choose it?" that would depend highly on what you believe. You can read this thread and realize that we're not going to agree on that. :)

I'd say that evil exists in us, in that's it's an essental part of free will. If you don't have the will to choose, you don't have a choice and therefore no freedom of "Spirit". Since we can choose to do bad things, good things, or things we think are part of some grey ethical morass... We have the ability to choose to do evil. We create evil.

Is it a part of us? Yes. Where did we get this ability? We can argue it was the snake's fault, but it's better to say we chose this path that the snake offered us.
But even if we only choose said path we did not create it as it was offered to us externaly

You cannot evade the question in a cloud of elcution to be chosen it must exist, to exist it must be created.

You aren't listening to what I am saying. There is no "existance" to evil by this definition. It cannot be "created". It can only be chosen.

Now, if you want to say that God made creation in such a way that the creations could choose evil, that would make sense with this definition. By the very definition of free will, one can choose to move away from God.

I know I am not stating it well but something has to be in existence for us to choose it … it exists because of god

A concept does not have to have actual existence.

Its like heat and cold (sort of) cold is just the absence of heat

But without heat there would be no cold as well (at least not in the current perception) because there would be nothing to compare it too

cold is only cold in refferance to heat

Actually, this is the perfect example. Heat is energy and thus would exist, even if there were no such thing as cold. Even if you could not possibly have an absence of heat, heat would still exist. Cold, however, is defined by the absence of heat. It does not have an existence, because it is simply the absence of energy, not energy itself. An absence, by definition, does not have an "existance" as it is specifically defined by non-existence.

So you could say existance of heat creates cold

You could say that, but it really wouldn't be true within the definition of the word "create". Under the definition of good we talked about above, neither evil nor cold have existance at all. They are simply concepts defined by the absence of good or heat.

But even if we only choose said path we did not create it as it was offered to us externaly

If you believe in literal creationism, yes. Otherwise, I'd have to change my metaphors. :D

A concept does not have to have actual existence.



Actually, this is the perfect example. Heat is energy and thus would exist, even if there were no such thing as cold. Even if you could not possibly have an absence of heat, heat would still exist. Cold, however, is defined by the absence of heat. It does not have an existence, because it is simply the absence of energy, not energy itself. An absence, by definition, does not have an "existance" as it is specifically defined by non-existence.



You could say that, but it really wouldn't be true within the definition of the word "create". Under the definition of good we talked about above, neither evil nor cold have existance at all. They are simply concepts defined by the absence of good or heat.

But as such that puts the general “humans created it by choosing to partake of the apple” that we get all the time out of the question … it was no more created by us then it was by god

(though with an omni everything god is there truly any “not with god” or “absence of god” there may be a varying degree but would their be truly any “outside” if so that would define limits of an un-definable god)

Now I have seen this idea that we created evil therefore it is not god inspired

One question

If we created evil by selecting to disobey god to eat of the fruit how was Satan … an animal or being that chose evil in trying to influence us to select evil, before we ate of the fruit and fell from grace

Evil was an option for the devil to choose (and he actively chose it before us) before we had the chance to “create it” therefore god or another being created it before the advent of man
Just gonna *BUMP* til i have more time to deal with this thread. It looks interesting so far.

A concept does not have to have actual existence.
*snip*
You could say that, but it really wouldn't be true within the definition of the word "create". Under the definition of good we talked about above, neither evil nor cold have existance at all. They are simply concepts defined by the absence of good or heat.
Well, within the definition of existence is this: "2.a: the state or fact of having being, especially independently of human consciousness, and as contrasted with nonexistence." With this definition, all things exist, real and unreal things. Existence is not limited to reality, to actualized existence. The only reason we can talk about concepts and ideas is because they are mental things that exist; if they didn't exist, we couldn't talk about them.

So what you say being "true" depends on how you choose to define existence.

If you believe in literal creationism, yes. Otherwise, I'd have to change my metaphors. :D
I dont but arguing from within that framework because that is where I hear the idea proposed

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man" James 1:13

Curious:

Genesis 22:1 "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am".

Curious:

Genesis 22:1 "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am".

God wasn't tempting Abraham to do evil, i.e. lead him into a downfall. Moreover, God was strengthening Abraham's confidence and faith in God, leading him to higher ground. Different types of "tempting".

God wasn't tempting Abraham to do evil, i.e. lead him into a downfall. Moreover, God was strengthening Abraham's confidence and faith in God, leading him to higher ground. Different types of "tempting".

James didn't say anything about evil, did he... not in THAT context.

He said you couldn't tempt god with evil. He THEN said that God doesn't tempt man (evil is not mentioned in THAT clause).

Which is a lie... as shown in Genesis.

Oh - and Deuteronomy (4:34): "Or hath God assayed to go and take him a nation from the midst of another nation, by temptations, by signs, and by wonders, and by war, and by a mighty hand, and by a stretched out arm, and by great terrors, according to all that the LORD your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes"?

And (7:19) " The great temptations which thine eyes saw, and the signs, and the wonders, and the mighty hand, and the stretched out arm, whereby the LORD thy God brought thee out: so shall the LORD thy God do unto all the people of whom thou art afraid".

Oh - and First Corinthians (10:13) "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it".


And, of course - God IS tempted by the evil of man:

Deuteronomy 6:14-6 "Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you; (For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth... Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah".

Psalms 106:13-4 "They soon forgat his works; they waited not for his counsel... But lusted exceedingly in the wilderness, and tempted God in the desert".

Malachi 3:15 "And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered.

God wasn't tempting Abraham to do evil, i.e. lead him into a downfall. Moreover, God was strengthening Abraham's confidence and faith in God, leading him to higher ground. Different types of "tempting".
Depends on what your definition of "is" is. :rolleyes:

Seriously though, good to see Gravy 'gain.

*bows*

I hate to sound like I'm bragging, but I'm a good person. I work with Doctors Without Borders in third world countries, helping to feed, clothe and educate those who cannot do it themselves. Yet I have absolutely no faith in any form of religion, including christianity. Ergo, I must be evil, since god is not present in my life. If evil is as evil does, and I'm evil, then helping the unfortunate must be evil. By the same note, since Jesus helped poor people all the time, he must be evil. And since Jesus apparently = god, then god must be evil.

The whole Evil = absence of god deal is based on christian religious doctrine, something that a great majority of the world's inhabitants don't believe in. If you wish to know what evil is in christianity, then feel free to ask it, but make sure everyone knows what you're talking about, lest you label a great majority of the world's population as evil, something I'm sure they wouldn't like.
You have some interesting conclusions.
The Horizontally Challenged Citizenry of Straughn formally welcome you to NS.
*bows*

Well, within the definition of existence is this: "2.a: the state or fact of having being, especially independently of human consciousness, and as contrasted with nonexistence." With this definition, all things exist, real and unreal things. Existence is not limited to reality, to actualized existence. The only reason we can talk about concepts and ideas is because they are mental things that exist; if they didn't exist, we couldn't talk about them.

So what you say being "true" depends on how you choose to define existence.
Again, you ROCK.
Good to see your posts again, Willamena. Hope all is well with you.
*bows*

I don't think Satan created evil. I think he was tricked or manipulated somehow by god to become evil. Why? Satan existed in the presence of god. He knew how powerfull god was. Why would he take the chance to try to overthrow god? I can see only two possible reasons.

1) God isn't omnipotent and omniscient. His power and knowledge are limited, therefore Satan beleived he could work behind god's back, consolidate his power and defeat god.

2) God somehow monkeyed with satan's mind and forced him to start a war in heaven for god's own purposes.
Maybe Satan is an example of the INEVITABLE peril of choice?
What if having the ability to choose anything (as you perceive it) would INVARIABLY lead you to a conflict with the creator of the environment for which you could manifest a consequence of said choice (s)??

*Note: lotsa "Whatif"s on this topic*

EDIT: This consideration DOES NOT EXCLUDE god. By nature, it actually applies considerably ...

How exactly does Augustine's redefinition of evil escape the Problem of Evil again? Even supposing that evil were merely the absence of the good, then you'd still have to answer the question of why an omnibenevolent and omnipotent God would allow himself to be seperated from anything in the physical world. The only possible questions to that are other theodicies of God, such as the soul-making argument, the greater good argument, or the free will argument.

Now I have seen this idea that we created evil therefore it is not god inspired

One question

If we created evil by selecting to disobey god to eat of the fruit how was Satan … an animal or being that chose evil in trying to influence us to select evil, before we ate of the fruit and fell from grace

Evil was an option for the devil to choose (and he actively chose it before us) before we had the chance to “create it” therefore god or another being created it before the advent of man

Actually it was the fruit of knowledge that Adam and Eve bit into, and it was for seeking knowledge that they were supposedly kicked out of Eden. The fable of the Apple and the Exile from the garden could be used as a metaphor for humanity rising above the rest of nature in becoming self-aware, and are subsequint alienation from the physical world caused by that self-awareness.

Another metaphor could be drawn with the discovery of fire/agriculture or science, and the subsequint seperation from nature or the knowledge of the physical world that has resulted in the disprovel of all spiritial beliefs. We find ourselves alone on this island called Earth with no one to turn to or bow down to but ourselves...

Humanities search for ways to overcome its anxiety and alienation (philisophical or scientific) could be described as attempts to fight our way back into the garden, or create a new one....

A literal reading of the fable is nonsense and good and evil do not exist (they are after all spiritial in nature)...

Actually it was the fruit of knowledge that Adam and Eve bit into, and it was for seeking knowledge that they were supposedly kicked out of Eden. The fable of the Apple and the Exile from the garden could be used as a metaphor for humanity rising above the rest of nature in becoming self-aware, and are subsequint alienation from the physical world caused by that self-awareness.

Another metaphor could be drawn with the discovery of fire/agriculture or science, and the subsequint seperation from nature or the knowledge of the physical world that has resulted in the disprovel of all spiritial beliefs. We find ourselves alone on this island called Earth with no one to turn to or bow down to but ourselves...

Humanities search for ways to overcome its anxiety and alienation (philisophical or scientific) could be described as attempts to fight our way back into the garden, or create a new one....

A literal reading of the fable is nonsense and good and evil do not exist (they are after all spiritial in nature)...


I agree but the point was to discuss from within the framework of a litteral translation

I agree but the point was to discuss from within the framework of a litteral translation

Why argue over nothing? Why not discuss what it means now?

Why argue over nothing? Why not discuss what it means now?
Because as much as I agree with you I wanted to see if the conclusion that humans could create evil could standup within the limits that the conclusion was origionaly formed
Creationism

Because as much as I agree with you I wanted to see if the conclusion that humans could create evil could standup within the limits that the conclusion was origionaly formed
Creationism

Oh.... Then the answer is yes/no depending on your own literal interetation of the text and Creationism.... Thats it, it's not really that complex....

I believe that good and evil exist exclusively in one's own mind. Each person has their own definition of good and evil. many definitions are similar, but each varies slightly on small issues. It's the only way to explain why people like Oklahoma City Bombers do the things they do. perhaps in THEIR mind, blowing up a building isn't evil.

Another example is Pres. Bush. there are a lot of people who think he is evil, and others who think he is good. who's right?

A third example is Pope John Paul II. He labeled the 70's band The Eagles as satanic, and yet, they wrote a song called 'Hole In The World' :

There's a hole in the world tonight
There's a cloud of fear and sorrow
There's a hole in the world tonight
Don't let there be a hole in the world tomorrow

that doesnt seem satanic to me.

It's all a matter of perception. . .

simple answer the devil isn't evil how would we know after all we’ve only heard this from "Gods" side

but evil doesn’t really exist we just brand things as bad like was Hitler evil if he only wanted to make a better world?


Moral relativism: Logically unsound, yet it won't die.

Good and Evil are abstract ideas.

Not only that they are relative. What i would call "Evil" someone else might call "good" or not think twice about it. What is "Good" and what is "Evil" dempends on where and when you are.

I used to like to claim to be a Dualist (religion Dualist not someone who goes round fighting duals) in RE to annoy may teacher claiming there were two gods of equal power and the one who ruled here was the evil one. I dont think i ever actually believed it but it did get her annoyed.


Not true. We do not define Good and Evil by merely having conceptions of it, they exist outside of ourselves. Just because one individual believes something is good and another believes it is evil, it doesn't mean anything is proven: Truth exists outside of our beliefs. Beliefs determine nothing.

I hate to sound like I'm bragging, but I'm a good person. I work with Doctors Without Borders in third world countries, helping to feed, clothe and educate those who cannot do it themselves. Yet I have absolutely no faith in any form of religion, including christianity. Ergo, I must be evil, since god is not present in my life. If evil is as evil does, and I'm evil, then helping the unfortunate must be evil. By the same note, since Jesus helped poor people all the time, he must be evil. And since Jesus apparently = god, then god must be evil.

The whole Evil = absence of god deal is based on christian religious doctrine, something that a great majority of the world's inhabitants don't believe in. If you wish to know what evil is in christianity, then feel free to ask it, but make sure everyone knows what you're talking about, lest you label a great majority of the world's population as evil, something I'm sure they wouldn't like.



Your acts do not determine whether you are good or evil. There are no truly good individuals, we are all evil for we have all sinned. Evil is imperfection, and works do not compensate for our blemishes. Only those who have never transgressed are actually good, and that would be no one, save Christ.

Curious:

Genesis 22:1 "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am".


And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold here I am (Gen. 22:1)

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man (James 1:13)

In the first verse, we read that God tempted Abraham but in the second verse we are told that God does not tempt any man. An understanding of the meaning of the word tempt will dispel the seeming contradiction. This word is used in a good sense and in a bad sense. When it is used in a good sense it means to test, to try, to prove. God tested Abraham here to prove that Abraham trusted God completely. His faith in God and his obedience to God were made manifest to the world. We rea "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac" (Heb. 11:17). God tried Abraham several other times. It is recorded of Abraham in the New Testament: "He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God" (Rom. 4:20).

When the word tempt is used in a bad sense it means to entice a person to do evil. God never tempts man to sin. The trials or afflictions sent to us by God are intended for our good, not to hurt us or lead us to sin. John W. Haley comments on this: "God 'tempts,' tests, or tries man, but always for wise reasons, and with a good motive; he never places inducements before men merely in order to lead them into sin. His ultimate object is always good" (Alleged Discrepancies of the Bible, p. 81).

Moral relativism: Logically unsound, yet it won't die.

Not true. We do not define Good and Evil by merely having conceptions of it, they exist outside of ourselves. Just because one individual believes something is good and another believes it is evil, it doesn't mean anything is proven: Truth exists outside of our beliefs. Beliefs determine nothing.

Your acts do not determine whether you are good or evil. There are no truly good individuals, we are all evil for we have all sinned. Evil is imperfection, and works do not compensate for our blemishes. Only those who have never transgressed are actually good, and that would be no one, save Christ.



(first paragraph)
Moral relativism is bankrupt as even though morality does not exist that does not mean one should not judge actions or consequences.... To claim absolute/devine/religous morality is to fall back on belief in nothingness....

(second paragraph)
Good and Evil do not exist outside of individual beliefs, thus they do not exist in the physical universe. After all where are they, show them to me. We do agree on one thing though, truth exists outside our beliefs and has to be recognized. Beliefs determine nothing...

(third paragraph)
Christ did not exist and you are claiming a devine mandated morality which is based upon nothing....

:17). When the word tempt is used in a bad sense it means to entice a person to do evil. God never tempts man to sin. The trials or afflictions sent to us by God are intended for our good, not to hurt us or lead us to sin. John W. Haley comments on this: "God 'tempts,' tests, or tries man, but always for wise reasons, and with a good motive; he never places inducements before men merely in order to lead them into sin. His ultimate object is always good" (Alleged Discrepancies of the Bible, p. 81).

Why, it seems so absurd and pointless, why create us in the beggining (without our consent I might add) and then sit in judgement upon us for failing to live up to his expectations. If we were created in his image why are we so imperfect!? Is it because he made a mistake and were paying for it? Why was I not consulted?!!!

Face it, were just here, no higher rhyeme or reason to it....

Why, it seems so absurd and pointless, why create us in the beggining (without our consent I might add) and then sit in judgement upon us for failing to live up to his expectations. If we were created in his image why are we so imperfect!? Is it because he made a mistake and were paying for it? Why was I not consulted?!!!

Face it, were just here, no higher rhyeme or reason to it....



That's not really relevant to what I said, but ok:

He created us so that we may love Him and follow His will of our own accord. He doesn't sit here expecting us to sin so he can send us to Hell for some sadistic pleasure; rather, He sent his own Son, part of Himself, to sacrifice Himself so that our sins might be forgiven, if we only accept Him and follow His will to the best of our abilities. We were created perfect, yet our free will, which was the only method of truly loving God, was abused by Eve and then Adam in a perverse lust for knowledge. We made the mistake, we're paying for it, and He was so benevolent that He tooks our sins upon Himself in the purest act of altruism ever known.

(first paragraph)
Moral relativism is bankrupt as even though morality does not exist that does not mean one should not judge actions or consequences.... To claim absolute/devine/religous morality is to fall back on belief in nothingness....

(second paragraph)
Good and Evil do not exist outside of individual beliefs, thus they do not exist in the physical universe. After all where are they, show them to me. We do agree on one thing though, truth exists outside our beliefs and has to be recognized. Beliefs determine nothing...

(third paragraph)
Christ did not exist and you are claiming a devine mandated morality which is based upon nothing....


Actually, there is plenty of evidence supporting the existence of Christ.

Actually, there is plenty of evidence supporting the existence of Christ.

Jesus yes, Christ no!

That's not really relevant to what I said, but ok:

He created us so that we may love Him and follow His will of our own accord. He doesn't sit here expecting us to sin so he can send us to Hell for some sadistic pleasure; rather, He sent his own Son, part of Himself, to sacrifice Himself so that our sins might be forgiven, if we only accept Him and follow His will to the best of our abilities. We were created perfect, yet our free will, which was the only method of truly loving God, was abused by Eve and then Adam in a perverse lust for knowledge. We made the mistake, we're paying for it, and He was so benevolent that He tooks our sins upon Himself in the purest act of altruism ever known.

How can a perfect being abuse free will!? Why does this God want to be loved so bad? Why were we created in the frist place? If God was perfect what motive would he have to create imperfect creations? Why was I not consulted on being here? Why would a perfect benevolent God allow a being called Satan or allow a place called hell? Your reasoning is so perverse...

Now I have seen this idea that we created evil therefore it is not god inspired

One question

If we created evil by selecting to disobey god to eat of the fruit how was Satan … an animal or being that chose evil in trying to influence us to select evil, before we ate of the fruit and fell from grace

Evil was an option for the devil to choose (and he actively chose it before us) before we had the chance to “create it” therefore god or another being created it before the advent of man


Heres something to think about.

Evil does not exist.

There's opinion number one, and theres opinion number two. Whoever has more supporters for their opinion will be morally correct- being as morals are created by the amount of people who feel they are correct. So whoever has the most supporters will win a moral arguement and therefore teach as many as they can that their view is correct, and opposition to their view is incorrect and evil.

So the devil didnt choose evil, the devil had a different view. He wanted the apple to be eaten, just as much as god didnt want the apple to be eaten. The problem was choice. If you ate the apple, then you listened to the devil. If you didnt then you listened to god. It was merely a test of loyalty and trustworthiness. And since most people nowadays are religious and believe in the 'words of god' the devil's choice has been made into some evil doing.

--- btw im completely atheist and dont believe in any of this sh*t anyway. But from a philisophical standpoint, i find this question to be fascinating.

Jesus yes, Christ no!


http://www.sonic.net/sentinel/naij3.html

http://www.sonic.net/sentinel/naij3.html

Christ was bestowed upon Jesus post-execution. Also Christ implies that Jesus was the son of God and that he was rose from the dead. He was not the son of God and people have never risen from the dead. The fact that people believe he rose from the dead (at a very supersticous and ignorant time I might add) and put it down in a book is not proof such an event actually happened (Scientoligy anyone, human suffering is caused by alien souls :rolleyes: ).

There is evidence that Jesus may in fact have been a combenation of people or a simpilification of a more complex resistence/religous leader.

Actually, there is plenty of evidence supporting the existence of Christ.

Totally untrue.

There is no evidence which is contemporary AND independent.

Depends on what your definition of "is" is. :rolleyes:

Seriously though, good to see Gravy 'gain.

*bows*

Greetings, friend... long time, no see. :)

Now I have seen this idea that we created evil therefore it is not god inspired

One question

If we created evil by selecting to disobey god to eat of the fruit how was Satan … an animal or being that chose evil in trying to influence us to select evil, before we ate of the fruit and fell from grace

Evil was an option for the devil to choose (and he actively chose it before us) before we had the chance to “create it” therefore god or another being created it before the advent of man

Well, I don't know of anyone who argues that man created evil, so there's your answer. It would seem that someone arguing that man created evil, but was tempted by Satan to disobey God in the first place, would have quite a quandry on his hands.

And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold here I am (Gen. 22:1)

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man (James 1:13)

In the first verse, we read that God tempted Abraham but in the second verse we are told that God does not tempt any man. An understanding of the meaning of the word tempt will dispel the seeming contradiction. This word is used in a good sense and in a bad sense. When it is used in a good sense it means to test, to try, to prove. God tested Abraham here to prove that Abraham trusted God completely. His faith in God and his obedience to God were made manifest to the world. We rea "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac" (Heb. 11:17). God tried Abraham several other times. It is recorded of Abraham in the New Testament: "He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God" (Rom. 4:20).

When the word tempt is used in a bad sense it means to entice a person to do evil. God never tempts man to sin. The trials or afflictions sent to us by God are intended for our good, not to hurt us or lead us to sin. John W. Haley comments on this: "God 'tempts,' tests, or tries man, but always for wise reasons, and with a good motive; he never places inducements before men merely in order to lead them into sin. His ultimate object is always good" (Alleged Discrepancies of the Bible, p. 81).

On neither occasion does it say whether a person is being 'tempted in a good or bad way'. The Abraham temptation can be drawn from the context, perhaps, but you are grasping at straws trying to explain the other reference.

It says, explicitly "...neither tempteth he any man...". That is ALL that is in the text. Anything else you bring to that is extrapolation, based on the desire to wriggle out of an obvious conflict.

Jesus yes, Christ no!
Touche'.

Christ was bestowed upon Jesus post-execution. Also Christ implies that Jesus was the son of God and that he was rose from the dead. He was not the son of God and people have never risen from the dead. The fact that people believe he rose from the dead (at a very supersticous and ignorant time I might add) and put it down in a book is not proof such an event actually happened (Scientoligy anyone, human suffering is caused by alien souls :rolleyes: ).

There is evidence that Jesus may in fact have been a combenation of people or a simpilification of a more complex resistence/religous leader.
Horus, anyone?
*nods*

Greetings, friend... long time, no see. :)
Serendipity's getting news! :)
Dead Like Me ... cancelled :(
Millenium Vol. 3 ... out soon! :)

Summer ....
so how goes it with you?

Serendipity's getting news! :)
Dead Like Me ... cancelled :(
Millenium Vol. 3 ... out soon! :)

Summer ....
so how goes it with you?

Summer is a hot thing, full of work and other distractions... but with promises of a Firefly movie at the end of it. :)

Ooooh, new Millenium... yummy. :)

I never got to see "Dead Like Me" - maybe I'll be able to get it on DVD? That's my hope with "Carnivale", also.

So - it's all good here, how's you?

Your question( or obversation) is very insightful: If God was the very first thing to exist, then, yes, He would have had to create evil. Though I think human beings can more or less decide what is evil by judging whether something harms them or others. This is a very simplistic definition and I'm open to any suggestions on how I might redefine evil. .

As for this whole H!tler thing on pg. 1 of this thread, anyone that would be so malicious to pick a random ethnicity out of a hat and decide that people belonging to that ethnicity aren't fit to exist has a mind too warped to contemplate.

Originally posted by: Straughn

There is evidence that Jesus may in fact have been a combination of people or a simplication of a more complex resistance/religious leader.

From what source did u find this evidence?

Summer is a hot thing, full of work and other distractions... but with promises of a Firefly movie at the end of it. :)

Ooooh, new Millenium... yummy. :)

I never got to see "Dead Like Me" - maybe I'll be able to get it on DVD? That's my hope with "Carnivale", also.

So - it's all good here, how's you?
Carnivale's good? Haven't watched it. It is on DVD though. I haven't seen "Oz" either ....
Dead Like Me's a good show that Showtime used to have but unceremoniously bumped for this season. Apparently, no finale, even the stars were pretty convinced it was going to continue (specials on DVD).

Well, in debt huge but married. Work good. Warm still for a notoriously cold state (AK). Busy as all-get-out. Not dissimilar from your position, i imagine!!

*bows*

Originally posted by: Straughn

There is evidence that Jesus may in fact have been a combination of people or a simplication of a more complex resistance/religious leader.

From what source did u find this evidence?
Actually not originally posted from me ... i responded to Amestria.
*That's why my font's different.*
Horus .... there's a poster named "Bottle" here who has VOLUMINOUS amounts of information on this subject. Also, obviously, Grave_n_Idle is what could be EASILY construed an EXPERT on this subject.
I might try and retrieve Bottle's post ... i have it on my computer at home but it's down, so until i retrieve i guess you'll have to trust me. Or don't. Or maybe TG.

Originally Posted by Amestria
Christ was bestowed upon Jesus post-execution. Also Christ implies that Jesus was the son of God and that he was rose from the dead. He was not the son of God and people have never risen from the dead. The fact that people believe he rose from the dead (at a very supersticous and ignorant time I might add) and put it down in a book is not proof such an event actually happened (Scientoligy anyone, human suffering is caused by alien souls ).

There is evidence that Jesus may in fact have been a combenation of people or a simpilification of a more complex resistence/religous leader.

Originally posted by: Straughn

There is evidence that Jesus may in fact have been a combination of people or a simplication of a more complex resistance/religious leader.

From what source did u find this evidence?

There are many sources, the easiest means for you to become familar with them all is to look up Jesus in the Wikipedia which summerizes the issues and lists authors who have spoken on the subject. If it catches your interest then you perhaps can do some reading on the subject over the winter...

I never got to see "Dead Like Me" - maybe I'll be able to get it on DVD?
Season 1 is out, Season 2 just released. It's awesome fun.

EDIT: Be sure to watch the extras, watch for the squirrels.

Carnivale's good? Haven't watched it. It is on DVD though. I haven't seen "Oz" either ....
Dead Like Me's a good show that Showtime used to have but unceremoniously bumped for this season. Apparently, no finale, even the stars were pretty convinced it was going to continue (specials on DVD).


Only saw a few episodes of Carnivale, but it was very nicely done... I'm surprised it made a full run... it's a little too 'astute' for MOST US tv... :)


Well, in debt huge but married. Work good. Warm still for a notoriously cold state (AK). Busy as all-get-out. Not dissimilar from your position, i imagine!!


Actually, change the state to Georgia... and add a 'soon-to-be-added-to-the-family' baby... and you're pretty much dead-on. :)

Season 1 is out, Season 2 just released. It's awesome fun.

EDIT: Be sure to watch the extras, watch for the squirrels.

Ok... it's on 'the list' :D

Originally posted by: Straughn

There is evidence that Jesus may in fact have been a combination of people or a simplication of a more complex resistance/religious leader.

From what source did u find this evidence?

Just of the top of my head:

http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm

The 'christ' story borrows heavily from the myths of Buddha, Krishna, Mithra, Horus and Prometheus, among a whole array of others. (Not to mention the misappropriation of the Jewish 'messiah' concept).

Even the 'look' of the modern Christ bears an uncanny resemblence to Serapis.

Now I have seen this idea that we created evil therefore it is not god inspired

One question

If we created evil by selecting to disobey god to eat of the fruit how was Satan … an animal or being that chose evil in trying to influence us to select evil, before we ate of the fruit and fell from grace

Evil was an option for the devil to choose (and he actively chose it before us) before we had the chance to “create it” therefore god or another being created it before the advent of man

Evil has always existed. God has always existed. Satan was evil from the beginning, so nobody created it.

Evil has always existed. God has always existed. Satan was evil from the beginning, so nobody created it.
Then you dont know your mythology ... because "Satan" was among gods chior for awhile before his fall from grace

Season 1 is out, Season 2 just released. It's awesome fun.

EDIT: Be sure to watch the extras, watch for the squirrels.
Squirrels!!!!

There's apparently an unreleased episode ... "The Escrow"

I'm gritting my teeth about that show cancelling. It was most excellent. :(

BTW: Willamena, of course, you ROCK.

*bows*

Only saw a few episodes of Carnivale, but it was very nicely done... I'm surprised it made a full run... it's a little too 'astute' for MOST US tv... :)



Actually, change the state to Georgia... and add a 'soon-to-be-added-to-the-family' baby... and you're pretty much dead-on. :)
CONGRATULATIONS are in order, then!

*cigar*

Just of the top of my head:

http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm

The 'christ' story borrows heavily from the myths of Buddha, Krishna, Mithra, Horus and Prometheus, among a whole array of others. (Not to mention the misappropriation of the Jewish 'messiah' concept).

Even the 'look' of the modern Christ bears an uncanny resemblence to Serapis.
You rock, Gravy. Thanks for backing me up.
*bows*

You rock, Gravy. Thanks for backing me up.
*bows*

Yay! I rock! I had my suspicions I did... :D

Most welcome, my friend... any time.

Yay! I rock! I had my suspicions I did... :D

Most welcome, my friend... any time.
For thoes about to rock ... we salute you