NationStates Jolt Archive


All Christians Please Read

Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 03:28
First, I want to say to anyone who is not Christian who is reading this: This is not intended to be the beginning of a debate. I have no interest in trying to make someone understand something that they don't want to. And I won't reply to anyone who tries to debate with me. This post is intended for any Christian on here that has posted something to a non-believer.

I have taken a great deal of time to read all of the many different posts on religion on here...and as a Christian, I must ask, what does all of the arguing and debating prove? Faith and belief is something that occurs deep in the heart...it is not something that someone can be debated into. Faith in Christianity is something that God prepares someone's heart for...and He simply uses His children to help them along the way. As Christians, we do have the responsibility of spreading the Gospel...but that is a far cry from shoving it down someone's throat. As Christians, our main focus should be becoming like Jesus...hence, the What Would Jesus Do? philosophy....Jesus made a point of befriending those who needed Him the most...Jesus was someone who was not judgemental and loved all of humanity...and He only got angry when He felt that His Father was being dishonored...ie, when He came upon the merchants selling their wares in the Temple.....my point is this, look to yourself and how you honor God and how you let Him use you to expand His kingdom...when you have a heart for God and His will then everything else will fall into place. And my fellow Christians, PRAY!! Prayer is one of the greatest things that you can do to help those who don't yet know God....because God will do the rest! Trust in Him! He wants those who do not know Him to be part of His Kingdom even more than you do! Every day, walk in Jesus' steps...do the things that He would've done...react to situations the way that He would have reacted...speak the words of Love and Truth that He would have spoke...then you will find that you are a much happier, complete person, who people gravitate towards because they see a sincerity, a compassion and a source of Love that is rare in the world today.

Again, I'm not wanting this to turn into a Christian/non-Christian debate....this post is about loving your fellow man, no matter what they believe in...
JuNii
09-08-2005, 03:35
First, I want to say to anyone who is not Christian who is reading this: This is not intended to be the beginning of a debate. I have no interest in trying to make someone understand something that they don't want to. And I won't reply to anyone who tries to debate with me. This post is intended for any Christian on here that has posted something to a non-believer.

I have taken a great deal of time to read all of the many different posts on religion on here...and as a Christian, I must ask, what does all of the arguing and debating prove? Faith and belief is something that occurs deep in the heart...it is not something that someone can be debated into. Faith in Christianity is something that God prepares someone's heart for...and He simply uses His children to help them along the way. As Christians, we do have the responsibility of spreading the Gospel...but that is a far cry from shoving it down someone's throat. As Christians, our main focus should be becoming like Jesus...hence, the What Would Jesus Do? philosophy....Jesus made a point of befriending those who needed Him the most...Jesus was someone who was not judgemental and loved all of humanity...and He only got angry when He felt that His Father was being dishonored...ie, when He came upon the merchants selling their wares in the Temple.....my point is this, look to yourself and how you honor God and how you let Him use you to expand His kingdom...when you have a heart for God and His will then everything else will fall into place. And my fellow Christians, PRAY!! Prayer is one of the greatest things that you can do to help those who don't yet know God....because God will do the rest! Trust in Him! He wants those who do not know Him to be part of His Kingdom even more than you do! Every day, walk in Jesus' steps...do the things that He would've done...react to situations the way that He would have reacted...speak the words of Love and Truth that He would have spoke...then you will find that you are a much happier, complete person, who people gravitate towards because they see a sincerity, a compassion and a source of Love that is rare in the world today.

Again, I'm not wanting this to turn into a Christian/non-Christian debate....this post is about loving your fellow man, no matter what they believe in...well said.
it took me awhile too, but I realized that posting on the forums isn't the best or even good way to witness to others. That is why I try to stay away from the religious threads. many times all those threads do is just get me angry and I really don't like myself when I speak out of anger.
Haloman
09-08-2005, 03:36
First, I want to say to anyone who is not Christian who is reading this: This is not intended to be the beginning of a debate. I have no interest in trying to make someone understand something that they don't want to. And I won't reply to anyone who tries to debate with me. This post is intended for any Christian on here that has posted something to a non-believer.

I have taken a great deal of time to read all of the many different posts on religion on here...and as a Christian, I must ask, what does all of the arguing and debating prove? Faith and belief is something that occurs deep in the heart...it is not something that someone can be debated into. Faith in Christianity is something that God prepares someone's heart for...and He simply uses His children to help them along the way. As Christians, we do have the responsibility of spreading the Gospel...but that is a far cry from shoving it down someone's throat. As Christians, our main focus should be becoming like Jesus...hence, the What Would Jesus Do? philosophy....Jesus made a point of befriending those who needed Him the most...Jesus was someone who was not judgemental and loved all of humanity...and He only got angry when He felt that His Father was being dishonored...ie, when He came upon the merchants selling their wares in the Temple.....my point is this, look to yourself and how you honor God and how you let Him use you to expand His kingdom...when you have a heart for God and His will then everything else will fall into place. And my fellow Christians, PRAY!! Prayer is one of the greatest things that you can do to help those who don't yet know God....because God will do the rest! Trust in Him! He wants those who do not know Him to be part of His Kingdom even more than you do! Every day, walk in Jesus' steps...do the things that He would've done...react to situations the way that He would have reacted...speak the words of Love and Truth that He would have spoke...then you will find that you are a much happier, complete person, who people gravitate towards because they see a sincerity, a compassion and a source of Love that is rare in the world today.

Again, I'm not wanting this to turn into a Christian/non-Christian debate....this post is about loving your fellow man, no matter what they believe in...

Wow. That was a well thought out, as well as accurate post.

I commend you for posting exactly what I've been thinking and feeling for quite some time. I think, a lot of the time, we tend to forget that we're humans as well, we make mistakes, we sin (Romans 3:23), and that it is not our duty, it's not our place, nor do we have the authority to, judge other people of their sins and what their place is in eternity. (Matthew 7:1) Indeed, our duty is to give God all we got, and love each other as we would ourselves. (Matthew 22:37-39)
LazyHippies
09-08-2005, 03:49
You make the mistake of assuming that people who debate in favor of Christianity are doing so in an attempt to reach out to or convert people. This may be the case for some people, but it may not be the case for everyone. I enjoy debate regardless of the subject it might be about. I dont generally get into religious debates but if I choose to get into one then it is because I feel it might be enjoyable to do so, not because I want to convert anyone. The object of this forum is basically to have fun and there is nothing wrong with having fun by defending Christianity from ignorant attacks.
Bedou
09-08-2005, 03:56
First, I want to say to anyone who is not Christian who is reading this: This is not intended to be the beginning of a debate. I have no interest in trying to make someone understand something that they don't want to. And I won't reply to anyone who tries to debate with me. This post is intended for any Christian on here that has posted something to a non-believer.

I have taken a great deal of time to read all of the many different posts on religion on here...and as a Christian, I must ask, what does all of the arguing and debating prove? Faith and belief is something that occurs deep in the heart...it is not something that someone can be debated into. Faith in Christianity is something that God prepares someone's heart for...and He simply uses His children to help them along the way. As Christians, we do have the responsibility of spreading the Gospel...but that is a far cry from shoving it down someone's throat. As Christians, our main focus should be becoming like Jesus...hence, the What Would Jesus Do? philosophy....Jesus made a point of befriending those who needed Him the most...Jesus was someone who was not judgemental and loved all of humanity...and He only got angry when He felt that His Father was being dishonored...ie, when He came upon the merchants selling their wares in the Temple.....my point is this, look to yourself and how you honor God and how you let Him use you to expand His kingdom...when you have a heart for God and His will then everything else will fall into place. And my fellow Christians, PRAY!! Prayer is one of the greatest things that you can do to help those who don't yet know God....because God will do the rest! Trust in Him! He wants those who do not know Him to be part of His Kingdom even more than you do! Every day, walk in Jesus' steps...do the things that He would've done...react to situations the way that He would have reacted...speak the words of Love and Truth that He would have spoke...then you will find that you are a much happier, complete person, who people gravitate towards because they see a sincerity, a compassion and a source of Love that is rare in the world today.

Again, I'm not wanting this to turn into a Christian/non-Christian debate....this post is about loving your fellow man, no matter what they believe in...

My response is good for more then just Christianity, but here goes.

IF, you are a Christian then you understand Biblically you are bound to bear Witness of the GOspel to your fellow men.
Now how empty would that be if it was only to people who already agreed with you that you proclaimed the GLory of God and Christ.

A Christian, and genuine practicing Christian is bound to stand up and be counted as such, and to make an honest and heart felt effort to bring others to the love and shleter of Christ--to help lead others to salvation.

So, while I admit it is frustrating to see the same stupid arguements re-hashed over and over there as purpose for real Christians in the debate--now Luke Warm Christian who duck there head and try not to offend anyone by speaking of God-well, read your Bible and see what is said about them.

If you are a Christian and dont read the Bible spare me your opinion, i am unimpressed--there Atheists here who are very well read biblically.

As to my justification for Christian debate--it is worth noting that a good Muslim will inevitably try to teach people of the truth if the Prophet Muhammed, blessings upon his name.

Just as the Christians would try to bring you Christ, jsut to would a good Muslim try to bring to Islam and its submission to Allah.

So, anyway that's my opinion, that and a dollar might get you something at the $.99 Store.
Kaledan
09-08-2005, 04:00
Hey, good job. I like what you said, and how you said it. I wish there were more people in the world like you.
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 04:01
LazyHippies:

Having a debate is one thing....a debate isn't personal...I was more refering to trying to "prove" that Christianity is right...when you argue about your beliefs and try to prove them to someone, it is already personal...it is my experience that someone who isn't Christian and isn't searching for answers has heard all of the arguements before and their heart just isn't ready to hear the Gospel....so what is the point? So you defend Christianity....what does defending your religion to someone who doesn't want to hear it do to further God's Kingdom?...generally ramming Scripture and theology down people's throats makes people RUN from Christianity! My suggestion....pray for them, love them and wait and see what God does to their heart! You can do more for God's Kingdom by praying, listening and heeding Him, then posting arguments on a forum. I posted this thread because God told me to....what comes of it is in His hands.
Animarnia
09-08-2005, 04:01
I'm not a christian or really religious for that matter but I have no problem with those that are or are not, one of my closest friends is christian and two really good ones are too. I'm more pagan or budist myself but even then very loosly I have my own views of faith that I have developed, as you said faith is a personal thing. I belive in many gods, some of them even Viking but I have say I agree with everything you said, Relgion(your coming from the veiwpoint of christianity) in general should not be about "converting others" but about being secure enough in your own faith that you don't have to convert anyone and can just enjoy your faith. you want to be christian, great, you want to be muslim fine, want to be jewish go for it etc etc. the only time I have a problem with religion of any kind is extreamism where they use and pervert religon as a front for Bigotism/racism/facism etc which can happen in any religion, these people are NOT religous its just an excuse and its a real shame more people don't see that for what it is.

You seem like someone who is very comfortable in your own faith and for that sir (or madam, I assume your a guy if your not my appolgoies) I salute you.
Orteil Mauvais
09-08-2005, 04:03
First, I want to say to anyone who is not Christian who is reading this: This is not intended to be the beginning of a debate. I have no interest in trying to make someone understand something that they don't want to. And I won't reply to anyone who tries to debate with me. This post is intended for any Christian on here that has posted something to a non-believer.

I have taken a great deal of time to read all of the many different posts on religion on here...and as a Christian, I must ask, what does all of the arguing and debating prove? Faith and belief is something that occurs deep in the heart...it is not something that someone can be debated into. Faith in Christianity is something that God prepares someone's heart for...and He simply uses His children to help them along the way. As Christians, we do have the responsibility of spreading the Gospel...but that is a far cry from shoving it down someone's throat. As Christians, our main focus should be becoming like Jesus...hence, the What Would Jesus Do? philosophy....Jesus made a point of befriending those who needed Him the most...Jesus was someone who was not judgemental and loved all of humanity...and He only got angry when He felt that His Father was being dishonored...ie, when He came upon the merchants selling their wares in the Temple.....my point is this, look to yourself and how you honor God and how you let Him use you to expand His kingdom...when you have a heart for God and His will then everything else will fall into place. And my fellow Christians, PRAY!! Prayer is one of the greatest things that you can do to help those who don't yet know God....because God will do the rest! Trust in Him! He wants those who do not know Him to be part of His Kingdom even more than you do! Every day, walk in Jesus' steps...do the things that He would've done...react to situations the way that He would have reacted...speak the words of Love and Truth that He would have spoke...then you will find that you are a much happier, complete person, who people gravitate towards because they see a sincerity, a compassion and a source of Love that is rare in the world today.

Again, I'm not wanting this to turn into a Christian/non-Christian debate....this post is about loving your fellow man, no matter what they believe in...

I'm not Christian in any way. However I would like to give you my compliments in preaching the word of your God, not his corrupted televangelist children. Well done.
Bedou
09-08-2005, 04:14
LazyHippies:

Having a debate is one thing....a debate isn't personal...I was more refering to trying to "prove" that Christianity is right...when you argue about your beliefs and try to prove them to someone, it is already personal...it is my experience that someone who isn't Christian and isn't searching for answers has heard all of the arguements before and their heart just isn't ready to hear the Gospel....so what is the point? So you defend Christianity....what does defending your religion to someone who doesn't want to hear it do to further God's Kingdom?...generally ramming Scripture and theology down people's throats makes people RUN from Christianity! My suggestion....pray for them, love them and wait and see what God does to their heart! You can do more for God's Kingdom by praying, listening and heeding Him, then posting arguments on a forum. I posted this thread because God told me to....what comes of it is in His hands.

You do understand you are pushing your 'correctness' the same way others push the 'correctness' of Christianity.

You are saying your opinion on how to serve God is correct--and others are wrong.

But see here is the thing--they have been called wrong before- they dont care.

So just like them when they argue with the non-believer to no end and no conclusion, you preach to deaf ears.

You accuse others of folly with folly of your own.
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 04:15
Bedou:

I am a proud Christian, who knows her theology....and I have no problem mentioning God on a forum, or in everyday conversation....but I wait for God to tell me what He wants me to do...if there is someone that He wants me to reach out to...I do it, but not to preach to them...I trust God will give me the words to say when I need to say them....I just befriend them like Jesus would have and let God do the rest....and He does! I also have no problem standing up (or alone) for what I believe in....God has already tested me on that one...numerous times.....Christians have two commandments that they need to abide by above all things....Love God with all of you heart....and love your neighbour as yourself....you can love your neighbour and still not agree with them....but then it becomes about communicating with love while still disagreeing with them.
Moglajerhamishbergenha
09-08-2005, 04:17
I think this was a really good post and an important point. I would not call myself a Christian, or anything really, but I do believe in a world greater than ourselves, and in something that calls us to be patient and compassionate with each other.

I guess because I don't subscribe to any particular tradition, I feel kind of caught in the middle when I see religious debates. This is because I have studied many traditions, and can see that mostly people are talking about the same things--just they are using different names or images for them and so they can't understand each other.

I've gotten into arguments with people, and I've had exciting discussions. There is room for some of both, but I think at the end of the day all we can do is realize we're generally all interested in getting along and being happy, so we work toward each other's happiness, even if we come to know God by different names and methods.
LazyHippies
09-08-2005, 04:18
LazyHippies:

Having a debate is one thing....a debate isn't personal...I was more refering to trying to "prove" that Christianity is right...when you argue about your beliefs and try to prove them to someone, it is already personal...it is my experience that someone who isn't Christian and isn't searching for answers has heard all of the arguements before and their heart just isn't ready to hear the Gospel....so what is the point? So you defend Christianity....what does defending your religion to someone who doesn't want to hear it do to further God's Kingdom?...generally ramming Scripture and theology down people's throats makes people RUN from Christianity! My suggestion....pray for them, love them and wait and see what God does to their heart! You can do more for God's Kingdom by praying, listening and heeding Him, then posting arguments on a forum. I posted this thread because God told me to....what comes of it is in His hands.

If that happens on these boards then I have not seen it. I find it hard to believe that this happens, however. How can a Christianity debate on this board be considered ramming anything down anyone's throat? If the person didnt want to hear it, wouldnt they be avoiding a religious thread?

When I was still reading Harry Potter and didnt want to hear any spoilers until I was done, I avoided the Harry Potter threads. It is only logical to avoid threads about things you dont want to hear anything about. Therefore, I find it difficult to believe that any religious debate on this board could be considered ramming anything down anyone's throat or harassing someone who doesnt want to hear it. If they clicked on a religious thread, then they do want to hear it.
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 04:20
Bedou:

I'm just stating "Love your neighbour!".....you can twist it any way you want to....that is one of the two greatest commandments as set out by God in the Bible...I'm just stating what all Christian churches teach and what the Bible directly states...so it would make sense that if you are a follower of Christ, then you would strive to become like Jesus and follow God's direction. I'm not going to argue here....this is supposed to be a happy post that encourages loving everyone.
Raglandenth
09-08-2005, 04:21
Good call. As my dad says "First you have to know your faith, then you have to live it, and then, only then can you share it". Another good quote along these lines is one from Ghandi, "Become the change you wish to see in the world". I have no right sharing my faith if I'm a hypocrite 'bout it.

The bottom line in this, Jesus calls us to share our faith, its up to the individual to accept it, or not. Because of Jesus's suffering on the cross, we are all saved, we either decide to accept it, or reject it. I am willing to share my faith with anyone that is willing to listen. The true way to share your faith, is by your daily life. I have no doubt Jesus converted many through his words and acts, but I feel the majority were converted, by his daily self. When we live the way J.C. wants us to, our light is casted upoun others, and they truly see what a Christian is.

I feel religion, much like politics, should be constantly debated, and argued. Healthy skeptism is good. There have been times where I've been unsure of my faith and its stances on various issues; but after learning these issues, and understanding the church isn't out to beat down your personal freedom, its about living a good, moral life. I think if most people got to hear a good person that is very committed to living the Christian lifestlye, and is very knoweldgeable concerning his or her faith, many people would be awed and would learn a lot. A lot of the reasons people disagree or worse hate Christians is because they've recieved a lot of disinformation. For instance like the Inquisition. Many people think it was all 'bout the church, but thats false. There were 2 inquisitions, one from the gov't, and one from the Church. The one from the gov't wasn't sanctioned by the church, the one that killed most of the people.

I'm a Roman Catholic, and if anyone is interested in learning 'bout the Catholic faith, contact me, and I will share what I know to the best of my ability.

As always God bless, and stay strong.
Rudigar
09-08-2005, 04:26
Nice thoughts, compare this with the human relationship. Its possible to make someone think they love you by means of persistance, force or reasoning but inevitably they will come back to realise that they have been fooled away from what they truly believe. A person needs to have their Christian belief set firmly in their heart and i am skeptical as to whether this can be done through an argument or by a one off effort in order to claim another person 'saved'. My nation, The Oppressed Peoples of Rudigar holds people to live under the rule of one mans word, with fear of the 3 legged boot.
Haloman
09-08-2005, 04:26
Good call. As my dad says "First you have to know your faith, then you have to live it, and then, only then can you share it". Another good quote along these lines is one from Ghandi, "Become the change you wish to see in the world". I have no right sharing my faith if I'm a hypocrite 'bout it.

The bottom line in this, Jesus calls us to share our faith, its up to the individual to accept it, or not. Because of Jesus's suffering on the cross, we are all saved, we either decide to accept it, or reject it. I am willing to share my faith with anyone that is willing to listen. The true way to share your faith, is by your daily life. I have no doubt Jesus converted many through his words and acts, but I feel the majority were converted, by his daily self. When we live the way J.C. wants us to, our light is casted upoun others, and they truly see what a Christian is.

I feel religion, much like politics, should be constantly debated, and argued. Healthy skeptism is good. There have been times where I've been unsure of my faith and its stances on various issues; but after learning these issues, and understanding the church isn't out to beat down your personal freedom, its about living a good, moral life. I think if most people got to hear a good person that is very committed to living the Christian lifestlye, and is very knoweldgeable concerning his or her faith, many people would be awed and would learn a lot. A lot of the reasons people disagree or worse hate Christians is because they've recieved a lot of disinformation. For instance like the Inquisition. Many people think it was all 'bout the church, but thats false. There were 2 inquisitions, one from the gov't, and one from the Church. The one from the gov't wasn't sanctioned by the church, the one that killed most of the people.

I'm a Roman Catholic, and if anyone is interested in learning 'bout the Catholic faith, contact me, and I will share what I know to the best of my ability.

As always God bless, and stay strong.

Not to mention the whole Fred Phelps 'God hates fags' thing. People assume that all christians dislike gay people and think they burn in hell. Every christian that I've talked to about this denounces it. So let's clear one thing up: God does not hate gays, and neither do christians!
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 04:33
LazyHippies:

Let's be honest here....when someone who is on these forums is arguing about religion (for or against)...it is very rarely about a good debate and genuinely looking for many different points of view...mostly it becomes more about each side trying to "enlighten" the other side....I've seen it time and time again...on many different forums...now I'm not saying that it is always that way, or it always starts that way....I enjoy a good debate from time to time....but that is generally with people who know that it is only a debate and that it just doesn't get personal in any way....I'm not saying that debating is wrong...I am asking that Christians examine their hearts and motives before they debate...I'm asking Christians to ask God if this is what He wants them to be spending their time on before they debate...it's all about the motives behind the debate....and above all, I'm asking Christians to just love their fellow man, no matter what they believe in.
Esotericain
09-08-2005, 04:35
Hypocrites. Unbelievable. Jesus was a fully practicing Jew. He observed Sabbath, he performed tefillin every morning, he showed the utmost respect to rabbis,and it is evidently possible he was one himself. Where is your path to emulating Jesus if not in Judaism? You have perverted what Jesus intended. You made Christianity a cult and not a religion. Observe ALL the laws Jesus did and perscribed, and not the ones convenient to you. Yes I'm religious. Yes I pray. And I am not Jewish.
LazyHippies
09-08-2005, 04:39
LazyHippies:

Let's be honest here....when someone who is on these forums is arguing about religion (for or against)...it is very rarely about a good debate and genuinely looking for many different points of view...mostly it becomes more about each side trying to "enlighten" the other side....I've seen it time and time again...on many different forums...now I'm not saying that it is always that way, or it always starts that way....I enjoy a good debate from time to time....but that is generally with people who know that it is only a debate and that it just doesn't get personal in any way....I'm not saying that debating is wrong...I am asking that Christians examine their hearts and motives before they debate...I'm asking Christians to ask God if this is what He wants them to be spending their time on before they debate...it's all about the motives behind the debate....and above all, I'm asking Christians to just love their fellow man, no matter what they believe in.

I dont doubt that the type of religious debates that go on here are just a terrible waste of time. But, thats why people are here, to kill time. What I am against is your statement saying that Christians here shove things down peoples throats and try to convert people who do not want to hear it. I have never seen such a thing except when it was non-christian pretending to be a christian (jesussaves). What I have seen is Christians getting into worthless debates with other people who do want to debate the subject. This is very different from what you spoke out against which is Christians shoving their religion down people who dont want to hear it's throats. The people being attacked with Christian viewpoints are people who purposefully went to an area where that is what goes on.
The Patriarch Ianus
09-08-2005, 04:39
First, I want to say to anyone who is not Christian who is reading this: This is not intended to be the beginning of a debate. I have no interest in trying to make someone understand something that they don't want to. And I won't reply to anyone who tries to debate with me. This post is intended for any Christian on here that has posted something to a non-believer.

I have taken a great deal of time to read all of the many different posts on religion on here...and as a Christian, I must ask, what does all of the arguing and debating prove? Faith and belief is something that occurs deep in the heart...it is not something that someone can be debated into. Faith in Christianity is something that God prepares someone's heart for...and He simply uses His children to help them along the way. As Christians, we do have the responsibility of spreading the Gospel...but that is a far cry from shoving it down someone's throat. As Christians, our main focus should be becoming like Jesus...hence, the What Would Jesus Do? philosophy....Jesus made a point of befriending those who needed Him the most...Jesus was someone who was not judgemental and loved all of humanity...and He only got angry when He felt that His Father was being dishonored...ie, when He came upon the merchants selling their wares in the Temple.....my point is this, look to yourself and how you honor God and how you let Him use you to expand His kingdom...when you have a heart for God and His will then everything else will fall into place. And my fellow Christians, PRAY!! Prayer is one of the greatest things that you can do to help those who don't yet know God....because God will do the rest! Trust in Him! He wants those who do not know Him to be part of His Kingdom even more than you do! Every day, walk in Jesus' steps...do the things that He would've done...react to situations the way that He would have reacted...speak the words of Love and Truth that He would have spoke...then you will find that you are a much happier, complete person, who people gravitate towards because they see a sincerity, a compassion and a source of Love that is rare in the world today.

Again, I'm not wanting this to turn into a Christian/non-Christian debate....this post is about loving your fellow man, no matter what they believe in...

I agree with you. I too am a Christian. But I would caution you in your admonition to other Christians on not aruing. It is true that we cannot argue someone into the faith, but that does not mean that we give up arguing altogether. It is our responsibility to restore (as best we can) truth and right-thinking in this world and arguement is a means by which we do so. But you are most Definitely correct in what you said.
Mt-Tau
09-08-2005, 04:49
Hey, good job. I like what you said, and how you said it. I wish there were more people in the world like you.

Seconded. :D
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 04:57
The Patriarch Ianus:

I am in no way saying that Christians should never argue....I am asking Christians to question their motives for arguing....and to ask themselves if what they wish to say is going to help or hinder the growth of God's Kingdom...as Christians, we are to try to be like Jesus...something that can never be done...but we are to live our lives with Jesus in our hearts...and Jesus would want people to look at us and see Him there...all I'm asking Christians to do is examine their hearts and then act upon what God is urging them to do...sometimes God just wants His people to sit and wait.
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 05:07
LazyHippies:

...but how does responding to someone who is just baiting a Christian to argue furthering God's Kingdom?....I understand that people come on here to waste time....but, if you read through the religious threads that are currently on here, there is much "I'm going to prove this to you if it is the last thing I do" attitude....I'm saying that a Christian can make a point on here and still show love, compassion and understanding...but that is not what generally happens...
Neo Rogolia
09-08-2005, 05:29
Hypocrites. Unbelievable. Jesus was a fully practicing Jew. He observed Sabbath, he performed tefillin every morning, he showed the utmost respect to rabbis,and it is evidently possible he was one himself. Where is your path to emulating Jesus if not in Judaism? You have perverted what Jesus intended. You made Christianity a cult and not a religion. Observe ALL the laws Jesus did and perscribed, and not the ones convenient to you. Yes I'm religious. Yes I pray. And I am not Jewish.



My only reponse: Read the Bible. Christ refers to the abolition of the old law many times.
Corisano
09-08-2005, 05:29
boooooring
Gnesios
09-08-2005, 05:31
Why not? Is what I ask. There is always that cahnce that there is that one person out there who wants to hear the truth. And it can never hurt to present our view point. As for Jesus not being judgmental... think about some of the things he said to the pharisees. Jesus judged what was right and what was wrong it was part of his right as God. He also spoke the truth in very frank and sometimes sarcastic language when it was needed. I also believe strongly that we should always have a ready answer (2Timothy 4:2) I am not saying we should act as though we have all of the answers or that we should argue every point. What I am saying is that there are times where respect and the in road to tell someone the truth can be brought by healthy debate. It really takes us knowing our limits and the limits of the people we are debating with. And as far as I can tell no one has ever really shoved thier beliefs down someone's throat here poeple simply become animated when they feel they are backed into a corner. As a whol I think all of the Christians on these boards have well represented Christ as well as themselves.
Neo Rogolia
09-08-2005, 05:32
Silence is necessary at times, however Christ and the apostles call upon us to spread His gospel and respond to skeptics:



1 Peter 3:13-17 13Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? 14But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. "Do not fear what they fear[b]; do not be frightened."[c] 15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. 17It is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.
Gnesios
09-08-2005, 05:35
Silence is necessary at times, however Christ and the apostles call upon us to spread His gospel and respond to skeptics:



1 Peter 3:13-17 13Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? 14But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. "Do not fear what they fear[b]; do not be frightened."[c] 15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. 17It is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.


well said and in context
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 05:44
Gnesios:

Please read my post again....I did say that Jesus was not judgemental...but I also said that He did get angry at times when He felt that His Father was not being honored...but when dealing with unbelievers and the "sinners" (and that is what I'm referring to) He was always loving and compassionate and showed His truth through Love. Being judgemental and angry are two different things. Heathly debate is great...but they are rare on these kinds of forums.....I have read the many religious threads on here...and they even turn ME off of Christianity...And I never said that ALL Christians react badly in a forum setting...all I'm asking Christians to do is examine their hearts BEFORE they start posting...if they have something to say that God has strongly put on their hearts....GREAT!!...but if they are debating just to see if they can "win"...then I would ask them what that does to further God's Kingdom...it's been my experience that if you argue just to gain the upper hand and "win"....you drive more people away from the Gospel, than to the Gospel.
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 05:51
Neo Rogolia:

I'm not saying for one moment that a Christian should keep quiet in the face of opposition...what I'm saying is that God will lead your words and your actions...so let Him....and by examining your heart you will know when to say something and when to stay quiet and wait for further instructions....it's also a matter of how a Christian approaches opposition...and God will guide your words and actions there, too....I've seen many people just get caught up in the argument...which is not of God...that is only of self.
The Black Forrest
09-08-2005, 07:22
hence, the What Would Jesus Do? .

Ahhh but what would Brian Boitano do?
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 07:29
The Black Forrest:

LOL!!! I have NO idea what Brian Boitano would do...but now you have me wondering...LOL!!!....maybe he replies with a "salchow"...or a "double axel"!! Ha, ha, ha!!
Cabra West
09-08-2005, 08:55
Hmm, where to begin?

I like debating religion (religion, not faith. There's a difference there). I enjoy exchanging ideas with others, I find it broadens my horizon and teaches me different views. In short, it is an enriching experience. Unless I stumble on a troll, that is.
As a general rule, I don't get offended by another persons view, but I do get offended now and then by overly aggressive attitudes, both from Christians and Atheists, or condescending or pitying attitude. That never fails to drive me up the wall, and I've experienced it form both ends of the spectrum.
I think you could best describe me as a sceptic Catholic, I've had a Jesuit upbringing and my family background is educated and rather sceptical as well. "Think for yourself" is what I've been taught, "How can you know the truth if you don't have all the facts?"
That's the reason why I enjoy a civil and instrcutive debate, but will refrain from any heated and insulting arguments.
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 09:40
Cabra West:

I never said that a good debate was a bad thing....read the WHOLE thread...all I am saying is that IF someone is arguing against a non-believer with the motive to "win" and MAKE the non-believer have some sort of revelation, then they are doing it for selfish reasons that has nothing to do with wanting anyone to know Jesus....and generally, those people actually push people AWAY from Christianity....if you don't debate for those reasons, then this post was never intended for you....all I wanted was to encourage Christians to examine their hearts as to why they have a need to come on here and debate their faith...that is all.
[NS]Amestria
09-08-2005, 09:48
First, I want to say to anyone who is not Christian who is reading this: This is not intended to be the beginning of a debate. I have no interest in trying to make someone understand something that they don't want to. And I won't reply to anyone who tries to debate with me. This post is intended for any Christian on here that has posted something to a non-believer.

I have taken a great deal of time to read all of the many different posts on religion on here...and as a Christian, I must ask, what does all of the arguing and debating prove? Faith and belief is something that occurs deep in the heart...it is not something that someone can be debated into. Faith in Christianity is something that God prepares someone's heart for...and He simply uses His children to help them along the way. As Christians, we do have the responsibility of spreading the Gospel...but that is a far cry from shoving it down someone's throat. As Christians, our main focus should be becoming like Jesus...hence, the What Would Jesus Do? philosophy....Jesus made a point of befriending those who needed Him the most...Jesus was someone who was not judgemental and loved all of humanity...and He only got angry when He felt that His Father was being dishonored...ie, when He came upon the merchants selling their wares in the Temple.....my point is this, look to yourself and how you honor God and how you let Him use you to expand His kingdom...when you have a heart for God and His will then everything else will fall into place. And my fellow Christians, PRAY!! Prayer is one of the greatest things that you can do to help those who don't yet know God....because God will do the rest! Trust in Him! He wants those who do not know Him to be part of His Kingdom even more than you do! Every day, walk in Jesus' steps...do the things that He would've done...react to situations the way that He would have reacted...speak the words of Love and Truth that He would have spoke...then you will find that you are a much happier, complete person, who people gravitate towards because they see a sincerity, a compassion and a source of Love that is rare in the world today.

Again, I'm not wanting this to turn into a Christian/non-Christian debate....this post is about loving your fellow man, no matter what they believe in...

I posted this thread because God told me to....what comes of it is in His hands.



The nothingness of Poom Poom's playground... :rolleyes:
Xeropa
09-08-2005, 09:50
Woodsprites: I think this is an excellent post. I think I know what you're getting at when you talk about seeing people ramming their faith down other people's throats. There are times when it just saddens me to see how a Christian has over-reacted and ends up turning people off. It turns me off too.

Our calling is to be the voice of Jesus in our conversations with people - it's only through how we come across that people will see the Spirit that lives in us. That includes our behaviour on NS. I posted in another thread about the need to remember to act in accordance with the fruit of the Spirit - with love, patience, goodness, kindness, gentleness and self-control. A lot of the none-Christians could do with learning that too, but we have an expectation placed upon us to do so which we should live up to.

Thank you for starting this thread, and God bless all you fellow Christians on NS. Pray for each other.
Cabra West
09-08-2005, 09:50
Cabra West:

I never said that a good debate was a bad thing....read the WHOLE thread...all I am saying is that IF someone is arguing against a non-believer with the motive to "win" and MAKE the non-believer have some sort of revelation, then they are doing it for selfish reasons that has nothing to do with wanting anyone to know Jesus....and generally, those people actually push people AWAY from Christianity....if you don't debate for those reasons, then this post was never intended for you....all I wanted was to encourage Christians to examine their hearts as to why they have a need to come on here and debate their faith...that is all.

Well, I should have been a bit more clear, I guess. A number of Christians on this forums really did almost suceed in making me turn away from Christianity altogether, by displaying the kind of behaviour I described. I had the distinct feeling that everything was better than to be in one group with those individuals...
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 09:58
LazyHippies:

Having a debate is one thing....a debate isn't personal...I was more refering to trying to "prove" that Christianity is right...when you argue about your beliefs and try to prove them to someone, it is already personal...it is my experience that someone who isn't Christian and isn't searching for answers has heard all of the arguements before and their heart just isn't ready to hear the Gospel....so what is the point? So you defend Christianity....what does defending your religion to someone who doesn't want to hear it do to further God's Kingdom?...generally ramming Scripture and theology down people's throats makes people RUN from Christianity! My suggestion....pray for them, love them and wait and see what God does to their heart! You can do more for God's Kingdom by praying, listening and heeding Him, then posting arguments on a forum. I posted this thread because God told me to....what comes of it is in His hands.

Woah...

Im sorry, did you say "God Told me to?"

Please, explain what you mean by that.
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 10:02
BackwoodsSquatches:

Yes...God told me to....it was something that I had prayed about...and I was compelled to write the post that I did...I can honestly say that I have never had to make a tough decision in my life BECAUSE God always TOLD me what to do by speaking to my heart....
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 10:03
Cabra West:

It's all good!! I understand what you are saying now!! :)
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 10:04
BackwoodsSquatches:

Yes...God told me to....it was something that I had prayed about...and I was compelled to write the post that I did...I can honestly say that I have never had to make a tough decision in my life BECAUSE God always TOLD me what to do by speaking to my heart....


I guess what Im asking is, for you to explain in what way God speaks to you.
Im assuming you dont believe its a verbal thing, so Im assuming you mean in a more existensial sense.

Please, if you will, elaborate.
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 10:11
Xeropa:

Thank you for your wonderful comments and thoughts!! They are so much appreciated! God bless you! :)
Phenixica
09-08-2005, 10:12
We defend our faith look again and you will notice most of those post are usally started by atheist. Yes jesus was kind hearted and all that but he also knew when to answer back everytime he was asked a life or death question he would use his wisdom to answer to question we are not trying to convert just to make people understand why we belive what we belive it's atheist that should keep there opions to themselfs

It can come threw many diffrent ways some people usally suddenly have urges that they usally dont have like on day as i was watching tv i suddenly got this urge to go on the computer and write a speech about christianity and our beliefs i gave that to my teacher as the 600-word essay we had to do and i got a b+ he said it was quite insightful but knowing every good old atheist he read it and didnt think for a second about what i was trying to get at.
Feyerabend
09-08-2005, 10:13
That's an excellent post, Woodsprites - and a breath of fresh air. I'm very impressed.
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 10:15
We defend our faith look again and you will notice most of those post are usally started by atheist. Yes jesus was kind hearted and all that but he also knew when to answer back everytime he was asked a life or death question he would use his wisdom to answer to question we are not trying to convert just to make people understand why we belive what we belive it's atheist that should keep there opions to themselfs


So..its ok for you to spread the word of Christ to others, but not ok for Athiests to call you out when they feel that you are full of it?

Seems a bit hippocritical if you ask me.
77Seven77
09-08-2005, 10:18
"Faith and belief is something that occurs deep in the heart..."

I very much agree, very good post.
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 10:22
BackwoodsSquatches:

No, it's not verbal....You see, I pray (a prayer can be said to God anywhere..at anytime..and you don't need to bow your head or fold your hands)...and then I wait....sometimes, God says nothing...which means that I have to wait for the answers in His time....but when He makes His presence known and calls me to action, I know it in my heart...The best way to describe it is that I just KNOW that God has asked something of me....it's something that I feel deep in my soul and it is always very specific...and it's just as plain as knowing that a banana is yellow....I don't really know how else to describe it...except that communicating with God is real, powerful and has never ever steered me wrong.
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 10:26
BackwoodsSquatches:

No, it's not verbal....You see, I pray (a prayer can be said to God anywhere..at anytime..and you don't need to bow your head or fold your hands)...and then I wait....sometimes, God says nothing...which means that I have to wait for the answers in His time....but when He makes His presence known and calls me to action, I know it in my heart...The best way to describe it is that I just KNOW that God has asked something of me....it's something that I feel deep in my soul and it is always very specific...and it's just as plain as knowing that a banana is yellow....I don't really know how else to describe it...except that communicating with God is real, powerful and has never ever steered me wrong.

Hmm..

Im skeptical, see...*as if you couldnt tell*.

However, I also recall you asking this not to turn into a real/not real debate, so In fairness to you...I will take it elsewhere, unless you dont mind answering a few questions.
I can promise not to turn this into an attack on your faith, if you like.
Cabra West
09-08-2005, 10:27
You know, I feel there is a difference in approach that many of those compulsory coneversists don't get.
Jesus never offered an answer before the question was asked, and he never criticised others for not understanding his words, he just rephrased.
In my experience, whenever I criticise anything to do with religion (and I frequently do), there's never a shortage of Christians to tell me in a rather personal tone that I will never understand that because my heart is not open, that I'm blind to the obvious truth, that I should go and read the bible again before asking questions like that etc.
Folks, if my heart really should not be open, you are not going to open it with criticism and insults. And one thing that's dead sure to make me block up completely are comments like "I pray for your poor soul"... :mad:
Phenixica
09-08-2005, 10:35
Amen sometimes arguement can help our faith and sometimes helps us better understand the typical arrogant atheist
Androis
09-08-2005, 10:36
Religion should not be debated, unlike politics, it affetcs only the believer, and it is not up to other people to judge others' beliefs.
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 10:36
BackwoodsSquatches:

I'd be more than happy to answer any questions that you have...as best as I can, anyway! :)
Xeropa
09-08-2005, 10:39
Amen sometimes arguement can help our faith and sometimes helps us better understand the typical arrogant atheist

Sadly, there seem to be equally as many arrogant Christians on here. Which strikes me as an oxymoron. Or at least it should be.
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 10:42
Cabra West:

I'm sorry to hear that your experiences with Christians have not always been positive ones...sometimes Christians get caught up in the theology and forget that people are very complex with many different viewpoints...I let who I am because of Christ in my life speak for me and through me...and I find that more people are open to conversing with me because they want to know why I'm so happy and satisified.
Phenixica
09-08-2005, 10:44
Well yes it can be sad sometimes when christians dont take in things but it's a case that christians seem arrogant because they seem to strangely defend to faith to a brick wall (the ones with guts do anyway) not so much being arrogant but sometimes people mix it with loyalty and think that if they look into other peoples faiths or non-faiths then they lose loyalty i dont really think that i spent 3 months looking at all diffrent religions and my faith now is better then ever
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 10:45
BackwoodsSquatches:

I'd be more than happy to answer any questions that you have...as best as I can, anyway! :)


Ok...cool.

You say that God speaks to you often, but of course, never in a literal sense.
You imply that God speaks to you by feeling, and this feeling, makes you know his intentions.

I ask you this:

How do you know that its not just a subconcious desire to be doing, what you feel your faith tells you you should?

In other words, is it possible that this sense you speak of...is invented by you, for you...in a sense...a mental, spiritual placebo?

Has this feeling ever directed you to do something that you would well and truly not otherwise do?

Or is it that, like making this thread, God didnt actually speak to you....perse..but that you felt that it would be the right thing to do, and comment on the idea that you feel Christians should be more tolerant, and you interperet this to mean that it was gods wishes, that you did this?

You see what I mean?
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 10:46
Phenixica:

What does calling someone who is atheist "arrogant" do to further the Kingdom of God? Does it help them understand Jesus' love for them and His sacrifice on the cross? Does it make them want to learn more about the Bible and the Gospel?...just wondering...
Cabra West
09-08-2005, 10:47
Well yes it can be sad sometimes when christians dont take in things but it's a case that christians seem arrogant because they seem to strangely defend to faith to a brick wall (the ones with guts do anyway) not so much being arrogant but sometimes people mix it with loyalty and think that if they look into other peoples faiths or non-faiths then they lose loyalty i dont really think that i spent 3 months looking at all diffrent religions and my faith now is better then ever

Erm... sorry, could you try some punctuation? I haven't got the first idea what you are saying there.
Cabra West
09-08-2005, 10:49
Ok...cool.

You say that God speaks to you often, but of course, never in a literal sense.
You imply that God speaks to you by feeling, and this feeling, makes you know his intentions.

I ask you this:

How do you know that its not just a subconcious desire to be doing, what you feel your faith tells you you should?

In other words, is it possible that this sense you speak of...is invented by you, for you...in a sense...a mental, spiritual placebo?

Has this feeling ever directed you to do something that you would well and truly not otherwise do?

Or is it that, like making this thread, God didnt actually speak to you....perse..but that you felt that it would be the right thing to do, and comment on the idea that you feel Christians should be more tolerant, and you interperet this to mean that it was gods wishes, that you did this?

You see what I mean?


I understand what bothers you about him, but why not leave him alone? Everybody has and needs those little placebos, you're no exception to that I'll bet.
As long as people are reasonable enough not to demand that everybody uses the same placebos, why criticize them for it?
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 10:54
I understand what bothers you about him, but why not leave him alone? Everybody has and needs those little placebos, you're no exception to that I'll bet.
As long as people are reasonable enough not to demand that everybody uses the same placebos, why criticize them for it?


I think you misunderstand me Cabra.

Im really not trying to judge Woodsprites on this one.
Im merely asking him/her to elaborate on how he feels he communicates with his god.

Im not attempting to berate his faith, or challenge it...(in this thread).

I assure you..this is merely acedemic on my part.
Phenixica
09-08-2005, 10:55
So..its ok for you to spread the word of Christ to others, but not ok for Athiests to call you out when they feel that you are full of it?

Seems a bit hippocritical if you ask me.

Really atheist do the same thing i go into a science room and all of a sudden if your christian your a outcast they bombard you with Evolution but when you say "i dont belive that because im christian" people look at you as a a wiredo if i make comments about evolution for instance
"Evolution hasnt been proven you just found bones that looked human or bones that kinda resembled another animal and went HAY THEY MUST BE RELATED" They dismiss it straight away and make me read a book called
'the origin of species' (sounds familar) i read the book returned it and amazingly i still dont belive in Evolution that book is so bloody...
sorry back to the subject at hand atheist are allot more hippocritical then christians you wine when somebody teases Buddism or some other religion but you tease chrstianity quite openly and by openly i mean every english class guys openly tease christianity just to try and get my back up
(god give me strengh) so dont you come to me saying to biblebash or any of that crap not when i had to go threw that kinda crap

Sorry to make a Arguement and i apoligise completely just it's a pretty toachy subject to me
Bruarong
09-08-2005, 10:55
First, I want to say to anyone who is not Christian who is reading this: This is not intended to be the beginning of a debate. I have no interest in trying to make someone understand something that they don't want to. And I won't reply to anyone who tries to debate with me. This post is intended for any Christian on here that has posted something to a non-believer.

I have taken a great deal of time to read all of the many different posts on religion on here...and as a Christian, I must ask, what does all of the arguing and debating prove? Faith and belief is something that occurs deep in the heart...it is not something that someone can be debated into. Faith in Christianity is something that God prepares someone's heart for...and He simply uses His children to help them along the way. As Christians, we do have the responsibility of spreading the Gospel...but that is a far cry from shoving it down someone's throat. As Christians, our main focus should be becoming like Jesus...hence, the What Would Jesus Do? philosophy....Jesus made a point of befriending those who needed Him the most...Jesus was someone who was not judgemental and loved all of humanity...and He only got angry when He felt that His Father was being dishonored...ie, when He came upon the merchants selling their wares in the Temple.....my point is this, look to yourself and how you honor God and how you let Him use you to expand His kingdom...when you have a heart for God and His will then everything else will fall into place. And my fellow Christians, PRAY!! Prayer is one of the greatest things that you can do to help those who don't yet know God....because God will do the rest! Trust in Him! He wants those who do not know Him to be part of His Kingdom even more than you do! Every day, walk in Jesus' steps...do the things that He would've done...react to situations the way that He would have reacted...speak the words of Love and Truth that He would have spoke...then you will find that you are a much happier, complete person, who people gravitate towards because they see a sincerity, a compassion and a source of Love that is rare in the world today.

Again, I'm not wanting this to turn into a Christian/non-Christian debate....this post is about loving your fellow man, no matter what they believe in...

Firstly, I agree with what you have posted. As a Christian, and a scientist, I feel, though, that debating has it's place in the life of many, but perhaps not all, Christians. The problem with so many debates is that they tend to get out of hand. When emotion rules instead of the will, it all spirals downward. On the other hand, when one is prepared to come to a debate with humility and teachability, one can learn a great deal about the world, humans, and even God. In the last three months, I have learned much from the atheists. I haven't always avoided getting upset with them, particularly when they get personal, but then again, perhaps I have done my fair share of upsetting, I don't really know.

I think it's rather important to look at the motives behind the debating. Firstly, I enjoy it. It's fun to pit your wits against an opponent. Much like any kind of competition sport. Secondly, you get to learn heaps, about how others see the world, and why. It can broaden your mind, and teach you tolerance. Thirdly, perhaps like the Apostle Paul, there is potential to persuade people of the truth. I have never seen anything like a conversion on NS, but that is not really out business anyway. We are just to say the words that God gives to us. It's only He that does the converting. Strictly between God and the individual. Fourthly, there are lots of people who are 'in the middle' and undecided about lots of things. I feel that defense of Christianity, especially from a scientific view point, would have helped me a great deal when I was a teenager trying to figure out what was my belief and what was simply inheirited from my parents. I feel for these people. I hope my posts can help some individual.

Having said that, I have also seen many Christians completely lose credibility in their debates, because they departed from following the teachings of Jesus. Very sad.

But, just to finish on a good note, I do see the truth in your post, and am glad that God seems to be speaking to people on NS.
Omicron Alpha
09-08-2005, 10:59
My response is good for more then just Christianity, but here goes.

IF, you are a Christian then you understand Biblically you are bound to bear Witness of the GOspel to your fellow men.
Now how empty would that be if it was only to people who already agreed with you that you proclaimed the GLory of God and Christ.

A Christian, and genuine practicing Christian is bound to stand up and be counted as such, and to make an honest and heart felt effort to bring others to the love and shleter of Christ--to help lead others to salvation.

So, while I admit it is frustrating to see the same stupid arguements re-hashed over and over there as purpose for real Christians in the debate--now Luke Warm Christian who duck there head and try not to offend anyone by speaking of God-well, read your Bible and see what is said about them.

If you are a Christian and dont read the Bible spare me your opinion, i am unimpressed--there Atheists here who are very well read biblically.

As to my justification for Christian debate--it is worth noting that a good Muslim will inevitably try to teach people of the truth if the Prophet Muhammed, blessings upon his name.

Just as the Christians would try to bring you Christ, jsut to would a good Muslim try to bring to Islam and its submission to Allah.

So, anyway that's my opinion, that and a dollar might get you something at the $.99 Store.

I'm going to start a new organisation -- 'Punch a Patronising Christian Society'. Every time a Christian attempts to 'bring us Christ', we will punch them in the head.

Why? Why the violence?

IF WE WANT TO LEARN ABOUT JESUS CHRIST WE'LL GO TO A CHURCH AND LEARN ABOUT JESUS CHRIST! IF WE DON'T GO TO A CHURCH TO LEARN ABOUT JESUS CHRIST THEN IT'S FAIRLY LIKELY THAT WE DON'T WANT TO LEARN ABOUT JESUS CHRIST! WHY IN THE NAME OF CHRIST IS THIS SO HARD FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND?!

The guy in the first post is halfway there. Still has that 'I'm better than you, but I'll tolerate your desire to remain that way' attitude though.

Really atheist do the same thing i go into a science room

Yeah, if you go into a 'science room' (whatever you mean by that) then chances are you're going to be finding some science. WEIRD, HUH?!

Same as if we go into a Church, we expect to be bombarded by religion. Strange, that, huh?
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 10:59
Really atheist do the same thing i go into a science room and all of a sudden if your christian your a outcast they bombard you with Evolution but when you say "i dont belive that because im christian" people look at you as a a wiredo

Dude....this "." is called a "period", it stops sentences.

As for the quote above..if you recieve that kind of response, maybe you should talk about religion in a SCIENCE CHATROOM.
Seems like asking for it.




if i make comments about evolution for instance
"Evolution hasnt been proven you just found bones that looked human or bones that kinda resembled another animal and went HAY THEY MUST BE RELATED" They dismiss it straight away and make me read a book called
'the origin of species' (sounds familar) i read the book returned it and amazingly i still dont belive in Evolution that book is so bloody...

Ok..Im not gonna debate about evolution in this thread..the author has asked us not to..if you want to continue this...we can do it elsewhere.


sorry back to the subject at hand atheist are allot more hippocritical then christians you wine when somebody teases Buddism or some other religion but you tease chrstianity quite openly and by openly i mean every english class guys openly tease christianity just to try and get my back up
(god give me strengh) so dont you come to me saying to biblebash or any of that crap not when i had to go threw that kinda crap


Im sorry...I cant understand you....you really need to use some better grammar in your posts.
Cabra West
09-08-2005, 11:00
Really atheist do the same thing i go into a science room and all of a sudden if your christian your a outcast they bombard you with Evolution but when you say "i dont belive that because im christian" people look at you as a a wiredo if i make comments about evolution for instance
"Evolution hasnt been proven you just found bones that looked human or bones that kinda resembled another animal and went HAY THEY MUST BE RELATED" They dismiss it straight away and make me read a book called
'the origin of species' (sounds familar) i read the book returned it and amazingly i still dont belive in Evolution that book is so bloody...

There is a little bit more to evolution than just mere ressemblance. The thing is, if you're in a science room, you can either scientifically back up your convictions or you risk scientific criticism. When you're in church, it's the other way round. It's all about location...


sorry back to the subject at hand atheist are allot more hippocritical then christians you wine when somebody teases Buddism or some other religion but you tease chrstianity quite openly and by openly i mean every english class guys openly tease christianity just to try and get my back up
(god give me strengh) so dont you come to me saying to biblebash or any of that crap not when i had to go threw that kinda crap

Sorry to make a Arguement and i apoligise completely just it's a pretty toachy subject to me

I can't really follow you there. From what I see around me and in the world on the whole, the religion most criticised nowadays would be Islam, not Christianity.
Phenixica
09-08-2005, 11:07
I really wanted that to be my last post since it had nothing to do with the topic this guy posted i got better things to do then listen to dumb atheist.

Well yes i suppose your right but after my experiance christianity is a pretty mocked religion aswell

Learned a thing pretty funny since god is the only reason i got over my depression which was in a pretty bad state (i was a cutter) i will admit i can be bitter and quite easy to anger infact like i said i apoligise just all that stuff i mentioned happened about a year after conversion i must admit tho i did get out of line but i can be very easy to anger something eles i must look on
(i bet right now you think i have some kinda split personality) and yes sorry for my writing i not the best at puncuation or however it is spelt i still recovering and i due pretty much owe god in my opion fo physical and spirtual life.

Yet again im Sorry and i will get off this matter since it is againts the wish of the person who started the comment for this to become a arguement and againts a certain somebody eles wish
Xeropa
09-08-2005, 11:07
snip

Please try to calm down and little and re-read the first post. This thread isn't about starting an argument.
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 11:08
I really wanted that to be my last post since it had nothing to do with the topic this guy posted i got better things to do then listen to dumb atheist


If thats how you answer questions..I think you havent learned a thing from your faith.

I call you a dumb Christian.
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 11:11
BackwoodsSquatches

...okay...let me start by giving you some history of myself...I have a natural gift for art...my parents, from the time that I was 16 and seriously considering art as a career, were totally behind me....so this is what I thought that I would be and what I wanted to be....fast-forward to about 2 years ago....I was working at a gym and had not been living my life for God...I had gotten selfish....and the gym that I was working for paid me well (I always had the highest sales)...but then they wanted me to lie to customers to make a sale....I was morally so torn....the money was good, but it became dishonest money....about the same time, my husband and I went with his parents to their church for Thanksgiving....and something miraculous and scary happened...I was sitting there, listening to the message and everything the pastor was saying...and something just struck the core of my being...a) I was not living the life that God intended me to...and b) I NEEDED to figure out how God wanted me to serve Him...then out of nowhere, He instructed me to go to school and become a youth pastor...So, as far as a decision that God directed me in that I wouldn't have done on my own...that is the BIG one so far....I wouldn't have chosen for myself to become a pastor for many reasons...I grew up in a Lutheran background that doesn't believe in women pastors....the idea of me becoming a pastor has put me at odds with some of my family members...and the idea of 4 years in school and not knowing where He will send me and my family is a scary one....I don't like change...but God told me to do this and has blessed every move to get into school. I know that it's not subconscious....simply because every time I listen to Him and make the choice that is His will...everything just comes together. I hope that my rant makes some sense...if I haven't answered something, please re-ask....or if you have questions about what I have written, please ask them....this stuff of communicating with God is complicated and it's hard to explain.
Omicron Alpha
09-08-2005, 11:15
Please try to calm down and little and re-read the first post. This thread isn't about starting an argument.

No, of course it's not. I'm almost tempted to start up a parody thread written in the same condescending style as this one, though, just to see how you react.

They guy's heart is in the right place, it's just not expressed in the right way. But I'm more irritated by subsequent posts, rather than the original.
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 11:19
Omicron Alpha:

As stated in my orginal post...this is not a thread that is designed for debate on religion....it is to encourage followers of Christ to love their fellow man, no matter what they believe in...so unless you are a follower of Christ, this post was never intended for you.
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 11:20
...okay...let me start by giving you some history of myself...I have a natural gift for art...my parents, from the time that I was 16 and seriously considering art as a career, were totally behind me....so this is what I thought that I would be and what I wanted to be....fast-forward to about 2 years ago....I was working at a gym and had not been living my life for God...I had gotten selfish....and the gym that I was working for paid me well (I always had the highest sales)...but then they wanted me to lie to customers to make a sale....I was morally so torn....the money was good, but it became dishonest money....about the same time, my husband and I went with his parents to their church for Thanksgiving....and something miraculous and scary happened...I was sitting there, listening to the message and everything the pastor was saying...and something just struck the core of my being...a) I was not living the life that God intended me to...and b) I NEEDED to figure out how God wanted me to serve Him...then out of nowhere, He instructed me to go to school and become a youth pastor...So, as far as a decision that God directed me in that I wouldn't have done on my own...that is the BIG one so far....I wouldn't have chosen for myself to become a pastor for many reasons...I grew up in a Lutheran background that doesn't believe in women pastors....the idea of me becoming a pastor has put me at odds with some of my family members...and the idea of 4 years in school and not knowing where He will send me and my family is a scary one....I don't like change...but God told me to do this and has blessed every move to get into school. I know that it's not subconscious....simply because every time I listen to Him and make the choice that is His will...everything just comes together. I hope that my rant makes some sense...if I haven't answered something, please re-ask....or if you have questions about what I have written, please ask them....this stuff of communicating with God is complicated and it's hard to explain.


I hear what your saying, and Im glad you feel you have a purpose.
My thoughts tell me that what you experienced would be closer to

"Rationalization, after an epiphany."

Meaning you werent happy doing the gym thing, and your own conscience made you want to lead a better life, and since you were in a church at the time....your mind put the two together.

Bascially, it boils down to "Reality is perception"

You percieve that God speaks to you...so he does.

I do not percieve God..so he does not exist.

Our perceptions are very real to us, and we both believe we are correct in our thinking.

However...my feelings tell me that the truth must be stretched to believe, what you believe.
In essence...like a magic trick by David Copperfield...he once made the Statue of Liberty dissappear.

Suspension of disbelief....if you forget for one minute, that its impossible to make Lady Liberty go *poof*..you are awed by the trick...if not..you merely see what he is doing..and are not entertained by it.

ergo...reality is perception.
Omicron Alpha
09-08-2005, 11:21
Omicron Alpha:

As stated in my orginal post...this is not a thread that is designed for debate on religion....it is to encourage followers of Christ to love their fellow man, no matter what they believe in...so unless you are a follower of Christ, this post was never intended for you.

Of course, of course. I should never have entered this thread. I'll leave you Christians to figure out how to deal with us 'lesser' Atheists on your own. I'll go back to my sinning, shall I?
Xeropa
09-08-2005, 11:28
I'm almost tempted to start up a parody thread written in the same condescending style as this one, though, just to see how you react.

You are perfectly within your rights to do so, although the mods may see it as flamebaiting. Just put a big disclaimer at the start saying 'This thread is designed to get a reaction from Christians' or somesuch, so we know to avoid it if we think it would wind us up, like Woodsprites did at the start of this one. She made it clear that this was a thread to encourage other Christians, not to provoke non-Christians.

They guy's heart is in the right place, it's just not expressed in the right way. But I'm more irritated by subsequent posts, rather than the original.

Then tell us why without seven-mile high letters of fire burning into our retinae. How should it have been expressed? Just enter the debate about how Christians should conduct themselves on NS sensibly rather than venting your spleen at us.
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 11:33
BackwoodsSquatches

...ahhh, but that is not how it was....I was not in a very spiritual place at the time....and like I said, becoming a pastor is not my choice..it is my calling...if I had my choice, I would've been happy just serving as a volunteer youth leader, or creating Christian art...but God called me to do much more....going to school for 4 years...putting my marriage under the stress of not seeing my husband as much and knowing that family members don't understand is NOT what I would've chosen...but God spoke to me..and this is what He wants, so I will obey..no matter how hard it is, or how scared I am. Going back to school terrifies me...I haven't been in school in almost ten years....being a women pastor scares me, since it still is very much a man's world. Trust me, I did not choose this, God chose this for me and I am simply obeying. Since you do not perceive God, it is not that you can't hear Him, but more that you have tuned Him out...it takes practice to hear the Holy Spirit in your heart...and most of it is letting go of your wants and desires and living for His wants and desires for you.
Omicron Alpha
09-08-2005, 11:39
Then tell us why without seven-mile high letters of flame burning into our retinae. How should it have been expressed? Just enter the debate about how Christians should conduct themselves on NS sensibly rather than venting your spleen at us.

I'm sorry, but it's very hard to convince somebody of something when they view you as someone 'without Christ', rather than a person. Which is exactly the attitude put across with many posts in this thread, and exactly the attitude to avoid.

If you want to test your own beliefs in a debate with other atheists, fine. I don't care about that so long as it's not personal (though I'm yet to see a lasting 'intelligent debate' on NS). I don't go into those threads because I have no interest in debating the existence of god -- as you 'know' it exists, I 'know' it doesn't exist, and have no interest in telling other people about it. Why so many people do is beyond me, but just bear that in mind next time you decide to 'spread the gospel'. I'm afraid that you can only be grabbed by so many people in the streets before you get angry about the whole thing. I should point out that it's not just Christians who should bear that in mind, but everybody. It's just that I've never been stopped in the street by an atheist or a Muslim trying to 'enlighten' me.

Indeed, the only reason I came into this thread at all is because as soon as I saw the title, I knew the thread would contain something condescending about atheists. What do you know? I was right. And it should stop. I'm sick to the back teeth of it.
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 11:41
Since you do not perceive God, it is not that you can't hear Him, but more that you have tuned Him out...it takes practice to hear the Holy Spirit in your heart...and most of it is letting go of your wants and desires and living for His wants and desires for you.

Hmm..how do you know that his wants and desires and mine arent the same?

As for tuning him out....

I think its more like sending a radio signal into space, hoping for a response from intelligent life.

Noble sentiments...but lacking in results.

As for being a woman pastor in a mans world.....theres no misconceiving that!
I give you all the credit in the world, you got guts.
Its as if people dont think that womans opinions on religion are worth anything, or that somehow, a woman cant know God as intimately, or follow his teachings as well as a man.

Bunch of crap, I say!

I could go on and try to point out that Christianity has instilled that belief into its followers..but thats not this kind of thread....

Ever read any of the (forgive my forthcoming mispelling) Apochraphyl texts?

Mary?

Book of Thomas?
Xeropa
09-08-2005, 11:45
but God spoke to me..and this is what He wants, so I will obey..no matter how hard it is, or how scared I am. Going back to school terrifies me...

My own experience is almost identical to this. The occassions where I know most clearly that God has led me on one path or another, it has been when that path goes completely against my human desire for comfort and security. And like Woodsprites, God has always been with me, and His path has always been right for me.

There have been other occasions when I have gone down a path which doesn't shift me outside my comfort zone, and if anything it's then that it's harder to know if it was God's leading or not. I think all Christians doubt and worry whether they are hearing God rightly, and it's easy to assume it's just your own subconscious. Being aware of those doubts makes it even more clear when that is not the case. Like quitting my job in full-time Christian work and moving my family (including my pregnant wife) to a different area of the country without knowing what job I would do when I got there. guess what? it was spot-on the right thing to do.

I understand what an impossible concept this is for someone who doesn't believe in God, and the explanation Backwoods gave is a perfectly rational one. Like all issues of faith, it comes down to belief at the end of the day. If accepting one thing means you have to turn your whole belief-system upside down, it's easier to find another - any other - explanation. But I don't agree with 'reality is perception' - personal reality maybe, but fundamental reality? No. It is how it is, we just don't always see or accept the full picture.
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 11:50
Xeropa:

Very elloquently said!!
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 11:56
My own experience is almost identical to this. The occassions where I know most clearly that God has led me on one path or another, it has been when that path goes completely against my human desire for comfort and security. And like Woodsprites, God has always been with me, and His path has always been right for me.

There have been other occasions when I have gone down a path which doesn't shift me outside my comfort zone, and if anything it's then that it's harder to know if it was God's leading or not. I think all Christians doubt and worry whether they are hearing God rightly, and it's easy to assume it's just your own subconscious. Being aware of those doubts makes it even more clear when that is not the case. Like quitting my job in full-time Christian work and moving my family (including my pregnant wife) to a different area of the country without knowing what job I would do when I got there. guess what? it was spot-on the right thing to do.

I understand what an impossible concept this is for someone who doesn't believe in God, and the explanation Backwoods gave is a perfectly rational one. Like all issues of faith, it comes down to belief at the end of the day. If accepting one thing means you have to turn your whole belief-system upside down, it's easier to find another - any other - explanation. But I don't agree with 'reality is perception' - personal reality maybe, but fundamental reality? No. It is how it is, we just don't always see or accept the full picture.

Oh, I beg to differ!

See..You can say that God exists, and I can say "No way!"

Whos right?

The one that can prove it.

Of course, thats where the issue is....as wea ll know, you cant prove it either way, so in the end, it indeed, comes to personal realization of the inner truth.

Mine says that its impossible that any sort of God can exists.

Yours says that im a nutcase, who cant see the forest for all the trees.

Perception is indeed reality.

Let me ask you this:

If I believe that the Devil is controlling me, and making me do things I shouldnt.....( I dont..but if I did)...I mean..well and truly believe that to be true...

..then isnt he?
Xeropa
09-08-2005, 11:57
I'm sorry, but it's very hard to convince somebody of something when they view you as someone 'without Christ', rather than a person.

I'm sad if that's the impression that comes across. Arguably, Christians care more for non-Christians than for other Christians, as we feel you're missing out on something wonderful. Forgive us if it sounds patronising - I think of it like this:
Imagine I walk into town, and there's a man with a table giving away free £5 notes. Fantastic. Wouldn't you want me to tell you about it when I see you on my way home? Well to us, what we have feels a million times better than that. We want you to experience it too.
The problem arises not from me wanting to share something good with you, but in how I do it. If I say 'hey mate, there's a bloke in town giving away money - you should check it out!' you'll probably do just that.
But what if I don't think you will check it out? What if I think you're going to miss out? What if I think you're going to go 'yeah, right' and walk away? I really really want you to go see the guy and get the free money. So I grab you by both shoulders and stare into your eyes - 'You've GOT to go see this guy. Seriously' Go and see him. Tell you what, I'll take you there. Come on come on...'
THEN, you're going to get pissed off at me and tell me to f**k off.
As Christians, we get it horribly wrong sometimes, particularly in the way we talk to other people. but please hear our hearts - at the end of the day, we want you to share in something good which we have found.

Indeed, the only reason I came into this thread at all is because as soon as I saw the title, I knew the thread would contain something condescending about atheists. What do you know? I was right. And it should stop. I'm sick to the back teeth of it.

Then the best thing to have done would have been to walk on by. What you just said is basically that you came into this thread looking for a fault you could complain about. And guess what? There one was. To be honest, it would have been almost impossible for there not to have been.
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 11:58
BackwoodsSquatches:

I have done a bit of research into some of those texts...but nothing extensive, since that would take years...there are many writings of Biblical time period that give more dimension to the things that are already in the Bible...I don't dismiss them, but I also believe that the books that make up the Bible were specifically chosen by God and is all that we need to understand the gospel...I believe that those who wrote the books of the Bible were divinely inspired...and that the other ancient writings were simply recordings of thought and history according to the writer, not God.
Xeropa
09-08-2005, 12:00
If I believe that the Devil is controlling me, and making me do things I shouldnt.....( I dont..but if I did)...I mean..well and truly believe that to be true...

..then isnt he?

If I believe up is down, down is up, and gravity doesn't exist, does it stop existing and can I fly now?

Belief does not make something real (despite what Terry Pratchett might say). We live in a world where absolutes seem to be unacceptable any more. But I still think they exist. God either exists or He doesn't. One of us is wrong. That doesn't make it provable either way.
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 12:06
BackwoodsSquatches:

I have done a bit of research into some of those texts...but nothing extensive, since that would take years...there are many writings of Biblical time period that give more dimension to the things that are already in the Bible...I don't dismiss them, but I also believe that the books that make up the Bible were specifically chosen by God and is all that we need to understand the gospel...I believe that those who wrote the books of the Bible were divinely inspired...and that the other ancient writings were simply recordings of thought and history according to the writer, not God.

But it was indeed, a man, who decided what books were to be considered "Canon", and wich were not.
So then...why is a human trying to interperet wich writings are the word of God..and wich are to be ignored.

Given that some of the texts are equal in age, or possibly, even older than some of the accepted texts, why are they less valid?

I say, its becuase the messages they contained, went againt the power structure and control system that the Catholic Church had at the time, and were deemed "submissive" to the people.

Examples:

In the Gospel of Mary, it strongly implies that not only was Mary Magdelene (wrong spelling, I know) the most favored disciple of Jesus, but also his wife, and not once ..ever..makes a reference to her ever being a prostitute.
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 12:07
BackwoodsSquatches:

No one can "prove" to you that God exists....the Holy Spirit must enter you and show your heart that God exists...but He can't enter uninvited...if you are looking for "proof"...no one can give that to you...I can only tell you that I have experienced a love so pure, so brilliant...and I want that love to be a part of my life every day....I don't think you are a nut case...but I do have one thing to ask of you...you are so sure that God doesn't exist...so try this experiment....ask for the Holy Spirit to enter your life....but ask wholeheartedly....ask Him to reveal Himself to you...that is the only way that I can think of to get "proof" that God exists....if God doesn't exist, then no harm was done, right?
Tobermori
09-08-2005, 12:09
Debating about your beliefs could help you to understand your beliefs better. Sometimes when you believe in something a good debate can help you understand why you actually believe what you believe. I don't believe that you should stay out of different debates on this forum.
Azerate
09-08-2005, 12:09
There are many street preachers of the Jesus Revolution(tm) and the New Generation(tm) type around where I live. I don't get it. Most of them have tried to talk me into their faith, and I damn near got beaten up by two of them in another town because I was a stubborn non-Christian. Around here they're not violent, they just speak an anemic "I'll Pray For You!(tm)" which is actually a hypocritical way of saying "I Hate Your Guts!" You know, I wish they'd say that - it'd actually make them honest for once.

The point is:
as I speak for many or most non-Christians, I say you should quit pestering us, it doesn't make us want to become like you. If you shut up, quit preaching to us about how nasty we are, we might just think a little about visiting a church or something to see what it's like.
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 12:11
If I believe up is down, down is up, and gravity doesn't exist, does it stop existing?

Belief does not make something real. We live in a world where absolutes seem to be unacceptable any more. But I still think they exist. God either exists or He doesn't. One of us is wrong. That doesn't make it provable either way.


No it doesnt make it provable either way, and to your example of gravity, no it doesnt stop existing.

BUT...to the person who believes they have seen a ghost....ghosts may not be real...but to the person who saw it....it might be a very real thing indeed.

Santa, for instance.
When you were young, you may have believed in Santa Claus, and to you..he was very real, and you may even have felt a nice warm feeling inside, every christmas that told you so.....

But Santa doesnt exist, does he?

No....but once, long ago...in your childhood mind, he did.
Omicron Alpha
09-08-2005, 12:13
I'm sad if that's the impression that comes across. Arguably, Christians care more for non-Christians than for other Christians, as we feel you're missing out on something wonderful. Forgive us if it sounds patronising - I think of it like this:
Imagine I walk into town, and there's a man with a table giving away free £5 notes. Fantastic. Wouldn't you want me to tell you about it when I see you on my way home? Well to us, what we have feels a million times better than that. We want you to experience it too.
The problem arises not from me wanting to share something good with you, but in how I do it. If I say 'hey mate, there's a bloke in town giving away money - you should check it out!' you'll probably do just that.
But what if I don't think you will check it out? What if I think you're going to miss out? What if I think you're going to go 'yeah, right' and walk away? I really really want you to go see the guy and get the free money. So I grab you by both shoulders and stare into your eyes - 'You've GOT to go see this guy. Seriously' Go and see him. Tell you what, I'll take you there. Come on come on...'
THEN, you're going to get pissed off at me and tell me to f**k off.
As Christians, we get it horribly wrong sometimes, particularly in the way we talk to other people. but please hear our hearts - at the end of the day, we want you to share in something good which we have found.

A ridiculous analogy. Because in that analogy you're not totally disrespecting the beliefs of other people. If you fail to see that, then you're the same kind of person I'm pissed off about.

It doesn't matter how you phrase it, you're being offensive. As mentioned, if we want to 'learn the error of our ways', we'll go to church. If we want to retain our dignity, we'll leave well alone. Unfortunately, you won't let us believe what we want, you have to go around telling us what's right. And that's insulting, not enlightening.

Then the best thing to have done would have been to walk on by. What you just said is basically that you came into this thread looking for a fault you could complain about. And guess what? There one was. To be honest, it would have been almost impossible for there not to have been.

Nonsense once more. I consider this 'religious superiority complex' no better than racism or homophobia, and will continue to rally against it just as I do against those. You've said it yourself -- there's no proof of anything. So let people believe what they want.



And now we see why I felt the huge font was necessary. Still is, apparently.
Xeropa
09-08-2005, 12:14
snip


As I said...

As Christians, we get it horribly wrong sometimes, particularly in the way we talk to other people. but please hear our hearts - at the end of the day, we want you to share in something good which we have found.

"I'll Pray For You!(tm)" which is actually a hypocritical way of saying "I Hate Your Guts!"

That's your interpretation of it. To you, what's the best thing you can do for someone? To us, it's pray for them. If a Christian says 'I'll pray for you' it means they care about you. If they say 'You're not worth praying for' THEN it means 'I hate your guts'. That should never ever happen.
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 12:17
BackwoodsSquatches:

No one can "prove" to you that God exists....the Holy Spirit must enter you and show your heart that God exists...but He can't enter uninvited...if you are looking for "proof"...no one can give that to you...I can only tell you that I have experienced a love so pure, so brilliant...and I want that love to be a part of my life every day....I don't think you are a nut case...but I do have one thing to ask of you...you are so sure that God doesn't exist...so try this experiment....ask for the Holy Spirit to enter your life....but ask wholeheartedly....ask Him to reveal Himself to you...that is the only way that I can think of to get "proof" that God exists....if God doesn't exist, then no harm was done, right?

Too late...

Its already happened.

I was raised Lutheran, and later attended a few different denominations.
I believed it, as deeply as I could have.
It was later in life...that I decided..there wasnt anything to it.
I never felt "moved by the spirit" or ever had anything reveal my faith was rewarded, or even justified.
In fact, the more dedicated towards christianity....the more I discovered that there was nothing to it.

I wanted to believe that there was a kind, loving benevolent God in the sky who had sent his son to doe for our sins, thereby giving us eternal life in Paradise, when we die.
But....in the end...I learned that there isnt.
Xeropa
09-08-2005, 12:17
Because in that analogy you're not totally disrespecting the beliefs of other people.

I hope I never totally disrespect the beliefs of other people. You have absolute free will to believe whatever you like, and I'm not going to stop you. But I will tell you if I think I've found something good which you could share in. how is that offensive? What you do with my news is up to you.
Xeropa
09-08-2005, 12:19
But Santa doesnt exist, does he?

No....but once, long ago...in your childhood mind, he did.

That's exactly my point. Either Santa exists or he doesn't. Fact is, he doesn't. But when I was a child I didn't know that. Now I do. Reality hasn't changed - just my understanding of it.
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 12:21
That's exactly my point. Either Santa exists or he doesn't. Fact is, he doesn't. But when I was a child I didn't know that. Now I do. Reality hasn't changed - just my understanding of it.


Observed, but my point is....now..he isnt real.

Once..he was.

Your perception of reality has changed, not Santa.
Xeropa
09-08-2005, 12:22
Your perception of reality has changed, not Santa.

I think we're arguing the same point. :)
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 12:24
I think we're arguing the same point. :)


Excellent!

Then you agree that reality is perception!

Wheres my prize?!
Lashie
09-08-2005, 12:24
<snip> (1st post)

Yeah I get what you mean... actually I didn't read your whole post but the part I read seemed to agree with what I've been thinking lately... I've always argued for my faith (Christian) but I've been noticing recently how stupid I've been... I mean I know that I can never argue anyone into Christianity but it's only recently that I've actually stopped trying... :rolleyes:
Bruarong
09-08-2005, 12:27
I'm going to start a new organisation -- 'Punch a Patronising Christian Society'. Every time a Christian attempts to 'bring us Christ', we will punch them in the head.

Why? Why the violence?

IF WE WANT TO LEARN ABOUT JESUS CHRIST WE'LL GO TO A CHURCH AND LEARN ABOUT JESUS CHRIST! IF WE DON'T GO TO A CHURCH TO LEARN ABOUT JESUS CHRIST THEN IT'S FAIRLY LIKELY THAT WE DON'T WANT TO LEARN ABOUT JESUS CHRIST! WHY IN THE NAME OF CHRIST IS THIS SO HARD FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND?!

The guy in the first post is halfway there. Still has that 'I'm better than you, but I'll tolerate your desire to remain that way' attitude though.



Yeah, if you go into a 'science room' (whatever you mean by that) then chances are you're going to be finding some science. WEIRD, HUH?!

Same as if we go into a Church, we expect to be bombarded by religion. Strange, that, huh?

I can think of plenty of people who are quite interested in God, but wouldn't go any where near a church. Perhaps they have fear of being Bible bashed. Or perhaps think their own friends might laugh. Maybe they are anxious about how they will be treated, or maybe they are scared of God. It could be a combination of all these, or perhaps some other reason entirely different. I sometimes get a bit anxious about going to a new church where I know nobody, even as a Christian. But you are certainly wrong to claim that when someone wants to learn about Jesus Christ they will go to church.

Your posts make you sound like you are sick of being treated as inferior by Christians. No doubt some have treated you that way. (I certainly have been treated that way by other Christians.) But do you really think you are inferior? You, most assuredly, are not, IMO, since according to the standards that God sets, that is not possible. However, if you have a nagging suspicion or doubt that perhaps you really are, then this will cause insecurity, and hence be likely to result in an overreaction the moment any Christian suggests that you are less than he/her.
Xeropa
09-08-2005, 12:30
Then you agree that reality is perception!

No. You said yourself, our perception of reality has changed, not Santa. As a scientifically provable entity, Santa does not exist. That never changes. But when we were little we believed he did. That didn't make him a scientifically provable entity. He still didn't exist. It's just that we were wrong.

The problem is, Santa's existence (or lack of) is provable scientifically. God's isn't. But He still, like Santa, must either exist or not. One of us is still wrong.

Reality is not perception. Perception is our picture of reality, which may or may not be accurate. But reality doesn't change.

I think we've gone round in spirals a long way from what this thread was about. Sorry Woodsprites.
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 12:31
BackwoodsSquatches:

In the Bible, there is no specific mention of Mary Magdeline being a prostitute.....you see, the prostitute mentioned has been presumed by some as being Mary Magdeline (but not all), but is not mentioned by full name, she is only called Mary....

Luke 7:37-39 And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment, And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed [them] with the ointment. Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.

John 11:1-2 Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha. It was that Mary which anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.

Yes, a man chose what books were to be in the Bible...but he was led by God...I can't prove this to you...and we can go around and around in circles...it's a matter of faith.

As far as finding any evidence, except for the fictional book the Davinci Code, that Mary and Jesus were married, I haven't been able to find anything...here is a link the Gospel of Mary: http://www.gnosis.org/library/marygosp.htm ...I skimmed over it and couldn't find any mention of them being married....maybe you'll have better luck.
Bruarong
09-08-2005, 12:33
Observed, but my point is....now..he isnt real.

Once..he was.

Your perception of reality has changed, not Santa.


Perception is the 'reality' that you see inside your head. Reality is 'reality', regardless of what is going on inside your head.

Santa did change in your perception, but not in reality.

Becoming a Christian is about perception coming closer to reality (obviously from a Christian's perspective). You should not try to confuse perception with reality (at least that's what it looks like you are trying to do).
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 12:34
No. You said yourself, our perception of reality has changed, not Santa. As a scientifically provable entity, Santa does not exist. That never changes. But when we were little we believed he did. That didn't make him a scientifically provable entity. He still didn't exist. It's just that we were wrong.

The problem is, Santa's existence (or lack of) is provable scientifically. God's isn't. But He still, like Santa, must either exist or not. One of us is still wrong.

Reality is not perception. Perception is our picture of reality, which may or may not be accurate. But reality doesn't change.

I think we've gone round in spirals a long way from what this thread was about. Sorry Woodsprites.

Sorry to drag this out so long...but heres what Ive been waiting to say..

Just as 'Sprites had asked all christians on this forum to behave themselves, and not be so condescending towards us athiests, I thought it would be nice to have a religious/philosophical debate in that same tone...tit for tat.

and here we were..all debating nciely with one another about the very basis of reality itself...and no one got nasty.

See folks....it can be done.
Xeropa
09-08-2005, 12:36
and here we were..all debating nciely with one another about the very basis of reality itself...and no one got nasty.

See folks....it can be done.

*stands up and takes the applause* :D

Congratulations Backwoods. Shall we give the thread back now?
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 12:40
BackwoodsSquatches:

I can't prove to you the existance of God...if you have questions, as always, I can try to answer them, but I can't prove faith....I would still reccommend seeking the Holy Spirit with your whole heart....I didn't truly feel the Holy Spirit move in me until I changed denominations...mostly because the Lutheran church concentrates on doctrine so much and forgets to address the personal relationship with Christ, so I didn't know how to be "in relationship" with God.
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 12:41
BackwoodsSquatches:

In the Bible, there is no specific mention of Mary Magdeline being a prostitute.....you see, the prostitute mentioned has been presumed by some as being Mary Magdeline (but not all), but is not mentioned by full name, she is only called Mary.... I belive you are right, but it has been implied by many faiths/sects.


Luke 7:37-39 it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner. [/quote]

and mainly becuase they interperet this passage, I believe.


chose what books were to be in the Bible...but he was led by God...I can't prove this to you...and we can go around and around in circles...it's a matter of faith.

Tell me...how much faith can you have in ancient Catholic Popes?
The catholics would never allow you o become a pastor, in thier church.

As far as finding any evidence, except for the fictional book the Davinci Code, that Mary and Jesus were married, I haven't been able to find anything...here is a link the Gospel of Mary: http://www.gnosis.org/library/marygosp.htm ...I skimmed over it and couldn't find any mention of them being married....maybe you'll have better luck.[/QUOTE]

Its in there..although to be honest..I dont know where exactly.
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 12:44
BackwoodsSquatches:

Of course, people can debate without it getting ugly...that was never my argument....like I have said in previous posts...it's not about NOT debating...it's about Christians debating with a heart FOR God....and someone with a heart for God will post with a great deal of love for their fellow man.
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 12:48
BackwoodsSquatches:

Of course, people can debate without it getting ugly...that was never my argument....like I have said in previous posts...it's not about NOT debating...it's about Christians debating with a heart FOR God....and someone with a heart for God will post with a great deal of love for their fellow man.

Hmm..I took your original post as a "Lets spread the love..not the hate" kinda thing, and I thought I'd spark some conversation, and make an effort to keep a very freindly vibe going.

Maybe as an example of what you were talking about...to set an example, if you will...
Xeropa
09-08-2005, 12:53
concentrates on doctrine so much and forgets to address the personal relationship with Christ, so I didn't know how to be "in relationship" with God.

I had a similar thing growing up. I went to university with a pretty robust 'head knowledge' of God, but it was only through someone I met there that I understood the need for a 'heart knowledge'. Of the two, I'd say the heart is more important.

Head knowledge alone tempted me to believe I had it sussed, that I knew it all, that everything was hunky-dory. I could rebuff arguments and win debates. But effectively, head knowledge made it all about me and my capacity to understand. Heart knowledge taught me that that was all well and good, but if I didn't love God and walk in a daily relationship with Him, I was missing out on the point of it all. Effectively, it made it all about Him and me together.

I have an unashamedly scientific background (Maths and Astronomy degree etc.), but I also have a healthy scepticism for our ability to know it all. Every generation of scientists has believed that they have found an unshakeable truth. Every subsequent generation has proved them wrong on some count or other. I don't see why this generation should be any different.

So I don't put my faith in science and scientific proof - until we know everything, we will always have to fill some gaps with assumptions. I don't dismiss science either, but we must accept that we have the capacity to be wrong.

What I DO put my faith in is the God who sustains me, loves me, values me and walks with me. That's what heart knowledge gives.

[Sorry this is a little truncated - I'm at work and should probably do some ;) ]
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 12:56
BackwoodsSquatches:

Catholics have nuns....they are women...they serve God....I would trust anyone who God guided...and God guided those who put the Bible together.....Read the Gospel of Mary...it's not very big, or long...find this marriage that happened....I'm curious....as far as Mary being a prostitute, I know that my church doesn't teach that...and neither does the Lutheran faith...Mary Magdeline is mentioned separately in the Bible and cannot be directly connected to the woman that was a prostitute that Jesus saved from being stoned to death, who was also named Mary:

Luke 8:1-3: Afterward [Jesus] journeyed from one town and village to another, preaching and proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God. Accompanying him were the Twelve and some women who had been cured of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary, called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out, Joanna, the wife of Herod's steward Chuza, Susanna, and many others who provided for them out of their resources.

Mark 15:40: There were also some women looking on from a distance, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the Less and Joses, and Salome.

John 19:25: But standing by the cross of Jesus were His mother, and His mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.

Mark 15:47: Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Jesus were looking on to see where He was laid.

Matthew 27:61: And Mary Magdalene was there, and the other Mary, sitting opposite the grave.

Matthew 28:1: Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave.

Mark 16:1: When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought spices, so that they might come and anoint Him.

John 20:1: Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came early to the tomb, while it was still dark, and saw the stone already taken away from the tomb.

Mark 16:9: Now after He had risen early on the first day of the week, He first appeared to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons.

John 20:18: Mary Magdalene came, announcing to the disciples, "I have seen the Lord," and that He had said these things to her.

Luke 24: But at daybreak on the first day of the week [the women] took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb. They found the stone rolled away from the tomb; but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. While they were puzzling over this, behold, two men in dazzling garments appeared to them. They were terrified and bowed their faces to the ground. They said to them, "Why do you seek the living one among the dead? He is not here, but he has been raised. Remember what he said to you while he was still in Galilee, that the Son of Man must be handed over to sinners and be crucified, and rise on the third day." And they remembered his words.Then they returned from the tomb and announced all these things to the eleven and to all the others. The women were Mary Magdalene, Joanna, and Mary the mother of James; the others who accompanied them also told this to the apostles, but their story seemed like nonsense and they did not believe them.
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 12:58
BackwoodsSquatches:

I think that it's cool that we are chatting here :) ...and you are right, maybe we can be an example... :)
Eutrusca
09-08-2005, 13:00
I am a proud Christian, who knows her theology....and I have no problem mentioning God on a forum, or in everyday conversation....but I wait for God to tell me what He wants me to do...if there is someone that He wants me to reach out to...I do it, but not to preach to them...I trust God will give me the words to say when I need to say them....I just befriend them like Jesus would have and let God do the rest....and He does! I also have no problem standing up (or alone) for what I believe in....God has already tested me on that one...numerous times.....Christians have two commandments that they need to abide by above all things....Love God with all of you heart....and love your neighbour as yourself....you can love your neighbour and still not agree with them....but then it becomes about communicating with love while still disagreeing with them.
You sound as if you have the courage to be able to both keep your peace or stand alone if necessary. This is not only great wisdom, it is sound theology. I salute you! :)
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 13:04
BackwoodsSquatches:

....Read the Gospel of Mary...it's not very big, or long...find this marriage that

.

Ok here.

Chapter 5, verse 5....Gospel of Mary

5) Peter said to Mary, Sister we know that the Savior loved you more than the rest of woman.

Anything else?
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 13:04
BackwoodsSquatches:

I think that it's cool that we are chatting here :) ...and you are right, maybe we can be an example... :)


Werd.
Xeropa
09-08-2005, 13:07
Ok here.

Chapter 5, verse 5....Gospel of Mary

Anything else?

Not quite sure what that proves. I love my friend David more than most of my other friends. Pretty certain I'm not married to him though. My wife might have something to say about that.
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 13:15
Not quite sure what that proves. I love my friend David more than most of my other friends. Pretty certain I'm not married to him though. My wife might have something to say about that.


Ok....I want to try to prove my point without sparking a huge debate, when thats not the point of the thread..so 'Sprites...if this gets crazy, say so.and I'll can it.


Bear with me..

If Peter, says to Mary.."We know that Jesus loved you more than any other woman," and as a Rabbi, would certainly want to life his life as an example...what other way to do so, than by having a loving, monogamous relationship, with the woman he loves, so deeply, even above his own mother?

I could be mistaken, but it would seem as though Jesus would be very adamant about the goodness of a stable family, and want to live in example of this.

Yes, it could just mean "Hey I think your great, Mary!" '
But certainly, it could even more likely mean they were married.
Xeropa
09-08-2005, 13:15
I feel I ought to post this. I'm in no way convinced about the veracity of the Gospel of Mary as I just read it in that website. It doesn't sound right or feel right - it has about it the sense of imparting some secret hidden knowledge, which I don't find consistent with the rest of Jesus' life and ministry. Something just feels odd about that text.

Now I realise I can't prove or disprove anything about it, and i'll admit to having no background knowledge about the text. All I can say is what I felt when reading it. Make of that what you will.
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 13:16
BackwoodsSquatches:

That doesn't prove that Jesus and Mary were married...it only proves that Jesus loved her more than any of the other women...my guess, backed up by how much she is mentioned in the Bible...Mary became a very close friend of Jesus...but that is a far cry from being married to her.
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 13:20
Xeropa:

I don't think that the Gospel of Mary is steeped in Truth, like the Bible, either...but since BackwoodsSquatches mentioned it...I thought it would be good to post the link to a site that provides the text.
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 13:24
BackwoodsSquatches:

I think that the idea of Mary and Jesus being married is a great extrapolation of the facts...Jesus was not sent to earth to get married and have a family...He was sent to earth to be a blood sacrifice for mankind's sins. I doubt that He would get married, knowing that He would have to abandon a wife.
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 13:24
BackwoodsSquatches:

That doesn't prove that Jesus and Mary were married...it only proves that Jesus loved her more than any of the other women...my guess, backed up by how much she is mentioned in the Bible...Mary became a very close friend of Jesus...but that is a far cry from being married to her.


please see my post above:


As for the Gospel of Mary not "feeling right"...

I have yet another half-assed hypothesis.

The Bible you, ( and I) have studied when learning our respective religion's dogma, was set down, a very long time ago, by an Italian Pope.
Its been pounded into our heads, for a very long time.

Back then...the Church was very much into painting Jesus as "Divine Saviour that died and was ressurected...etc." and the ultimate power in the universe!
In other words, they focused on his possible divinty, rather than focusing on his message.

So....they were not interested in a text that paints him in the light of "Jesus Christ, Family Man."

Thus, when reading such texts, becuase in many cases, the Church itself tells you not to. (Such was the case in my mother's day)
So..when reading it...it doesnt jibe with what you have come to learn.

But..

As I said before, if the book paints Jesus as more human...but no less the Saviour...wheres the harm?
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 13:29
BackwoodsSquatches:

I think that the idea of Mary and Jesus being married is a great extrapolation of the facts...Jesus was not sent to earth to get married and have a family...He was sent to earth to be a blood sacrifice for mankind's sins. I doubt that He would get married, knowing that He would have to abandon a wife.


I wouldnt agree.

I know this is entirely conjecture on my part, ( and really, all of ours) but if I were Jesus, and was trying to live my life as an example to others, I would think that by having a wife, and even childen, that it would all be part of the example...
In addition to preparing them for the afterlife, also focusing on their earthly time as well.

As for being a blood sacrifice, and abandoning his wife.....well...certainly he would know that there werent truly parted?

"Yoda will always be with you."
-Ben Kenobi, Empire Strikes Back.
(Sorry, I couldnt resist.)

Besides, is there any pasages that specifically mention that Jesus was celebate?
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 13:30
BackwoodsSquatches:

It's not about what harm there is in it...it is about what is fact and what is extrapolation, or theory....I really don't care if Jesus was married, or not...but I do know that Satan uses fluffy debates such as the Gospel of Mary to sidetrack the major points in Christianity and the whole reason why Jesus came to earth in the first place...you see, I take solace in the fact that anything that I do not know now, I will know when I meet my Maker...and even then, I still won't care because I will be in the presence of my Holy God.
Xeropa
09-08-2005, 13:32
So....they were not interested in a text that paints him in the light of "Jesus Christ, Family Man."

...

As I said before, if the book paints Jesus as more human...but no less the Saviour...wheres the harm?

It's not the idea of him being married which makes me say that, although I agree with Woodsprites that I don't think they were married.

I can see a problem arising here when I explain why I don't like the Gospel of Mary, in the same way as when Woodsprites said how she knew God told her to post something.

Basically, it's a spiritual thing. One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is the gift of discernment. All I can express it as, in this case, is a sense of wrongness when something not of God is portrayed as being something of God. That's my impression of this text. To me, it feels occult and ungodly, like a masquerade of Gospel. I really don't know how to explain it beyond that - it's more than unfamiliarity, it's a sense of unease, distrust and suspicion.

To expound further on the occult thing - the text seems to draw you in to understanding a riddle. What is the soul? The powers of wrath, ignorance etc.? When Jesus explained the Kingdom of God he used everyday language so it made sense to anyone who thought about it. This does the opposite. It promises hidden knowledge wrapped in mystical terminology. That smacks of the occult to me.

That's why I don't like it and it feels wrong.
Grave_n_idle
09-08-2005, 13:32
Ok....I want to try to prove my point without sparking a huge debate, when thats not the point of the thread..so 'Sprites...if this gets crazy, say so.and I'll can it.


Bear with me..

If Peter, says to Mary.."We know that Jesus loved you more than any other woman," and as a Rabbi, would certainly want to life his life as an example...what other way to do so, than by having a loving, monogamous relationship, with the woman he loves, so deeply, even above his own mother?

I could be mistaken, but it would seem as though Jesus would be very adamant about the goodness of a stable family, and want to live in example of this.

Yes, it could just mean "Hey I think your great, Mary!" '
But certainly, it could even more likely mean they were married.

I believe the idea that Jesus and Mary Magdelene were married stems from the fact that the Bible mentions those things about Jesus which were unusual, much more than those that were usual.

At that time, in that place, it would have been VERY noteworthy for a young man in his thirties NOT to be married... and yet, it isn't mentioned. Thus - some believe he MUST have been married... otherwise the text would say he was still single, against the common practise of the culture.

And, once it is assumed that Jesus was married, there are a few contendors lined up... but the most logical, is the person he visited first after the resurrection: Mark 16:4 "Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils".
Adaru
09-08-2005, 13:34
First, I want to say to anyone who is not Christian who is reading this: This is not intended to be the beginning of a debate. I have no interest in trying to make someone understand something that they don't want to. And I won't reply to anyone who tries to debate with me. This post is intended for any Christian on here that has posted something to a non-believer.

<Snip rest of original post>Bravo. The sort of attitude that does credit to your faith. Well said.
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 13:39
BackwoodsSquatches:

It's not about what harm there is in it...it is about what is fact and what is extrapolation, or theory....I really don't care if Jesus was married, or not...but I do know that Satan uses fluffy debates such as the Gospel of Mary to sidetrack the major points in Christianity and the whole reason why Jesus came to earth in the first place...you see, I take solace in the fact that anything that I do not know now, I will know when I meet my Maker...and even then, I still won't care because I will be in the presence of my Holy God.


Ok.

Let me give you yet another analogy.

Bruce Lee.

Stay with me on this one, it will have a point.

He invented his own martial arts style, Jeet Kun Do, that combined many other styles from around the world.

Chinese Kung Fu..
Japanese Karate
Korean Tae Kwon Do.
..The list goes on....

By eliminating all the useless fluff and regimental forms, and boiling down, what he felt, was the truth, he ultimately created one of the most effective martial arts styles, in the modern world.

Would it not make sense, if we take jeet Kun do, an liken it to Christianity.
By taking Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, and ignoring the less important parts, and taking some sentiments from Mary's book, or at least, the idea of Jesus as having an earthly wife, thus painting Jesus as a family man as well..

..Isnt it possible that we might come out better knowing Jesus?
Xeropa
09-08-2005, 13:40
the Bible mentions those things about Jesus which were unusual, much more than those that were usual.

At that time, in that place, it would have been VERY noteworthy for a young man in his thirties NOT to be married... and yet, it isn't mentioned. Thus - some believe he MUST have been married... otherwise the text would say he was still single, against the common practise of the culture.

Just arguing for a moment, if the Bible said Jesus wasn't married, how many people would then declare marriage to be ungodly because Jesus wasn't? If God wants us to accept marriage as his plan for the family, but not His plan for Jesus, wouldn't it make sense for Him to want it leaving out?

I think this is largely a red herring anyway. Whether Jesus was married or not is totally irrelevant to his ministry, his teaching, and ultimately the entire point of his coming - his death and resurrection. Which is another thing that makes me think this text is not of God because it leads us off into irrelevant discussions which sidetrack us from understanding the point of Jesus being here in the first place. All it does is open the door for nonsense like the Merovingian bloodline and books like the daVinci Code.
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 13:43
It's not the idea of him being married which makes me say that, although I agree with Woodsprites that I don't think they were married.

I can see a problem arising here when I explain why I don't like the Gospel of Mary, in the same way as when Woodsprites said how she knew God told her to post something.

Basically, it's a spiritual thing. One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is the gift of discernment. All I can express it as, in this case, is a sense of wrongness when something not of God is portrayed as being something of God. That's my impression of this text. To me, it feels occult and ungodly, like a masquerade of Gospel. I really don't know how to explain it beyond that - it's more than unfamiliarity, it's a sense of unease, distrust and suspicion.

To expound further on the occult thing - the text seems to draw you in to understanding a riddle. What is the soul? The powers of wrath, ignorance etc.? When Jesus explained the Kingdom of God he used everyday language so it made sense to anyone who thought about it. This does the opposite. It promises hidden knowledge wrapped in mystical terminology. That smacks of the occult to me.

That's why I don't like it and it feels wrong.

Can you explain to me what sort of mystical knowledge you think the Gospel of Mary may portend of ?
Xeropa
09-08-2005, 13:45
Would it not make sense, if we take jeet Kun do, an liken it to Christianity.
By taking Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, and ignoring the less important parts, and taking some sentiments from Mary's book, or at least, the idea of Jesus as having an earthly wife, thus painting Jesus as a family man as well..

..Isnt it possible that we might come out better knowing Jesus?

Firstly, if we dismiss bits of the Gospels as less important, we throw away God-given scripture which may be something God deeply wants us to know. I'm talking about 'us' as individuals rather than 'us' collective. One man's irrelevance may be another man's saving grace.

Secondly, if the Gospel of Mary is not of God and we mix it with those bits that are, we end up with a polluted and corrupted Gospel. What's that bit about 'only a small amount of yeast'?
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 13:45
Grave_n_idle:

Back in the time of Jesus....men and women got married young (in their teens)....Jesus did not start His ministry until He was in His thirties...and He didn't meet Mary until the time of His ministry and He cast the demons out of her...if we were going by your logic, He would have most likely been married before His ministry began...back when He was a teenager....but, He knew who He was from a very early age...and I think that He knew that He had a higher purpose...to be the Lamb...the sacrifice for our sins, so marriage and family wasn't His priority.
Florrisant States
09-08-2005, 13:46
Those who want to listen will listen and some of us do gain new inspiration from discussion. I agree with you that in some cases Jesus had righteous anger when his Father was dishonored. In other cases, Jesus spoke to Saul and asked "why are you persecuting me?"
I think I can tell when someone is willing to listen and when their comments are meant to provoke others. I'm reluctant to ransack the market within the Temple, because this isn't a WW web thing to do. For one thing, you often end up harming the website owner and not those who insult the Heavenly Father. Dishing out a little shame to a specific post is all it takes.
Set your example. Be of good cheer even when they are slapping you around. I believe that I will be a witness when it is required and silent the remainder of time. After all, silence is usually the best thing to say about a useless thread.
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 13:47
Just arguing for a moment, if the Bible said Jesus wasn't married, how many people would then declare marriage to be ungodly because Jesus wasn't? If God wants us to accept marriage as his plan for the family, but not His plan for Jesus, wouldn't it make sense for Him to want it leaving out?

I think this is largely a red herring anyway. Whether Jesus was married or not is totally irrelevant to his ministry, his teaching, and ultimately the entire point of his coming - his death and resurrection. Which is another thing that makes me think this text is not of God because it leads us off into irrelevant discussions which sidetrack us from understanding the point of Jesus being here in the first place. All it does is open the door for nonsense like the Merovingian bloodline and books like the daVinci Code.

Oh I couldnt possibly disagree more!

Its not irrevalant at all.

What ws Jesus here to do?
Die on that cross to save us.

But...is that all?
No..he told us how to live..how to act, and how to serve God, right?

If he was married, then it shows yet another example of how to lead a good life.

Why wouldnt he advocate the idea of "be fruitful..Multiply....have some kids, and teach them to love God, too!"
Cabra West
09-08-2005, 13:47
Firstly, if we dismiss bits of the Gospels as less important, we throw away God-given scripture which may be something God deeply wants us to know. I'm talking about 'us' as individuals rather than 'us' collective. One man's irrelevance may be another man's saving grace.

Secondly, if the Gospel of Mary is not of God and we mix it with those bits that are, we end up with a polluted and corrupted Gospel. What's that bit about 'only a small amount of yeast'?

How do you know that this hasn't already happened and that the gosples that are actually in the bible are the wrong ones, while the true ones were lost long ago?
Xeropa
09-08-2005, 13:50
Can you explain to me what sort of mystical knowledge you think the Gospel of Mary may portend of ?

It's not that there IS some mystical knowledge to discover - it's that it seems to lead you that way through trying to understand what it means by the different powers etc. At best, the temptation is to try to understand all that so you can gain some wonderful understanding of how the world is, but actually all you will do is end up wasting your time and energy on an irrelevance. At worst, you might be led to believe that you HAVE discovered some wonderful mystical knowledge, and then you'll go off down a path which is far distant from the one God has for you. Either way, it is either a distraction or a deception.

Beyond that, it's like I said - my feelings come from a spiritual sense rather than something which can be nailed down, labelled and catalogued.
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 13:52
BackwoodsSquatches:

But since it cannot be proven at this point...we really aren't getting to know Jesus any better....if God wanted us to know Jesus as a family man...then why wouldn't He make it clear?...black and white...we dismiss the power of God and how intentional God is all of the time...at this point, I think that it is just a tool that Satan uses to keep people off the right track....if we are debating about things like Mary and Jesus being married, then we are ignoring the very substance of the Gospel....Satan is very good at diversion....Satan diverts your attention so you aren't concentrating on what God wants you to hear, see and do.
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 13:54
Firstly, if we dismiss bits of the Gospels as less important, we throw away God-given scripture which may be something God deeply wants us to know. I'm talking about 'us' as individuals rather than 'us' collective. One man's irrelevance may be another man's saving grace.

Secondly, if the Gospel of Mary is not of God and we mix it with those bits that are, we end up with a polluted and corrupted Gospel. What's that bit about 'only a small amount of yeast'?

C'mon!

Do you think that in the OT, for example that all the "He beget Bob, who beget Bill, " in Genesis, are all that important?
Do they really show us anything?
No..they dont.

The part where Ham, sees his father past out drunk, and naked, and for seeing his naked father, is cast into slavery along with his descendants...

Thats equally as important as the story of Jesus and the Money lenders?

I dont think so.

My point is, take the Gospel of Mary for instance.
How do you know that it wasnt intended to be along with the rest of it, and was left out to to human fallibilty?

Im suggesting that open-mindedly considering the possibilty that it too, was correct, and may have more than a grain of truth to it, as well.

Btw...you have no idea how hard it is to argue in favor of a biblical text as an athiest.....
Xeropa
09-08-2005, 13:59
How do you know that this hasn't already happened and that the gosples that are actually in the bible are the wrong ones, while the true ones were lost long ago?

Again it comes down to faith. Sorry. I know we'd all like it all to be provable, but it just isn't, so we have to start from assumptions. Here's mine...

The Bible exists because God wants us to use it to understand the nature of the universe, how to live, etc. etc. etc. As such, it is an incredibly important document to Him, and He is more than capable of guiding the thoughts of the councils which drew together the canon to ensure His word got in, and bits that weren't His didn't.

Yes, it's simplistic. Yes, it's an assumption. But to think otherwise implies that God wasn't capable of getting His message to us. in which case we might as well all go home and would the last one out turn off the lights and put the chairs on the tables...
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 14:01
BackwoodsSquatches:

actually...all of the begats are very important..a) you can actually chart the geneology right from Adam and Eve all of the way through...did you know that Methuselah died in the same year as the flood...we don't know if the flood took him, or if he died before the flood...but it is interesting, nonetheless...b) the begats set up how the Twelve Tribes came to be...and how Noah is related to Adam...and how Jesus is of the house of David. Those begats are the backbone of the Bible...if we didn't have the begats, we'd have a bunch of random stories with no idea how they relate to one another.
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 14:02
BackwoodsSquatches:

But since it cannot be proven at this point...we really aren't getting to know Jesus any better....if God wanted us to know Jesus as a family man...then why wouldn't He make it clear?...black and white...we dismiss the power of God and how intentional God is all of the time...at this point, I think that it is just a tool that Satan uses to keep people off the right track....if we are debating about things like Mary and Jesus being married, then we are ignoring the very substance of the Gospel....Satan is very good at diversion....Satan diverts your attention so you aren't concentrating on what God wants you to hear, see and do.

I understand what your getting at, but "The Satan Card" doesnt mean much to me.

Im trying to think like a Christian here....

If God had wanted us to know Jesus as a family man, it should be in black and white, you say.
Well..it is.
Its just not in a book, that the church approves of.

If I were still a Christian, I would think that having a broader understanding of Jesus, would bring me closer to him, and therfore...God.
So..by using the other gospels that are not Canon, as learning devices, wich is essentially what all books are....and learning as much as I can about him, I would come to know him better.

As an athiest, I would say that techncially all the Bible boilsd down to is one Message:

Be good to yourself, and others.

I see nothing wrong with taking an overview of such books, and adding them to your personal faith, as one's beliefs dictate.
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 14:04
BackwoodsSquatches:

But it isn't black and white....no where in the Gospel of Mary does it say "Jesus and Mary were married"....you are extrapolating...that isn't black and white...that is merely a theory.
Xeropa
09-08-2005, 14:04
"He beget Bob, who beget Bill, "

He he. That I like. Yes they do mean something, particularly to those for whom the lineage of the Messiah ia of vital importance. Doesn't stop them being dull.

My point is that there are passages in the Bible which I sometimes read and they are just bits of text. they don't speak to me, they don't do anything for me, they don't change my life. At other times, those bits become vital and I almost believe they weren't there before. I've often read bits of the Bible and thought 'how did I never see that before?'

How do you know that it wasnt intended to be along with the rest of it, and was left out to to human fallibilty?

See my above, no doubt unsatisfactory, answer to Cabra.

Btw...you have no idea how hard it is to argue in favor of a biblical text as an athiest.....

Just hang in there man. :p
Omicron Alpha
09-08-2005, 14:05
I hope I never totally disrespect the beliefs of other people. You have absolute free will to believe whatever you like, and I'm not going to stop you. But I will tell you if I think I've found something good which you could share in. how is that offensive? What you do with my news is up to you.

How exactly isn't it offensive to walk up to a stranger and tell them how their beliefs are wrong, your beliefs are right, and how much happier they'll be if they believe what you believe? Because to me, and a great many other people, that's extremely offensive and disrespectful. It's no better than simply walking up to somebody and telling them that they are ugly, and they should follow a certain style to stop being ugly.

I don't expect you to fully understand why, as I've never seen an atheist preaching in the streets. You're in the majority! The god-fearing Christians! The only time atheists are particularly vocal is when they come on forums like these, and even then they only try to pointlessly pick apart the fundamental aspects of the Bible using science, a practice which I'm also against by the way.

Which is, incidentally, why you may think that 'your' way is the 'better' way. Why you may think people will be happier being like you. Because the only vocal atheists are the ones who come on forums and start a debate on the facts and myths. Well I've got news for you -- we're perfectly happy with our own beliefs, thanks. Instead of spending our lives telling everybody about it though, most of us prefer to get on with and enjoy life, as we don't have to spend our time worshipping a deity, or doing his 'work'. Having people such as yourself pull us aside and tell us what's wrong with us only makes that more difficult. If you didn't do that, I wouldn't have to come to places like this and tell you to stop.

I can think of plenty of people who are quite interested in God, but wouldn't go any where near a church. Perhaps they have fear of being Bible bashed. Or perhaps think their own friends might laugh. Maybe they are anxious about how they will be treated, or maybe they are scared of God. It could be a combination of all these, or perhaps some other reason entirely different. I sometimes get a bit anxious about going to a new church where I know nobody, even as a Christian. But you are certainly wrong to claim that when someone wants to learn about Jesus Christ they will go to church.

Then put up advertisements telling people where they should go. Just stop bothering me and all the other people who want nothing to do with your faith.

Your posts make you sound like you are sick of being treated as inferior by Christians.

That's because I am.

No doubt some have treated you that way. (I certainly have been treated that way by other Christians.)

No doubt they have. And even if they don't say it outright, I get the feeling they still think it. But that is not a problem. A lot of them choose to express that superiority complex they have.

But do you really think you are inferior?

No, otherwise I wouldn't be here complaining about it, would I?

You, most assuredly, are not, IMO, since according to the standards that God sets, that is not possible.

Well that's comforting. Maybe he should tell that to his flock?

However, if you have a nagging suspicion or doubt that perhaps you really are, then this will cause insecurity, and hence be likely to result in an overreaction the moment any Christian suggests that you are less than he/her.

No, being stopped by half a dozen Christians every time you attempt to buy something from a supermarket will result in a very understandable reaction -- anger and frustration. Any Christian, or anyone else for that matter, who suggests I am their inferior will be given a hefty dose of shouting regardless of my prior state of mind.
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 14:08
Omicron Alpha:

We are having a great conversation here...please don't ruin that...if you want to fight with someone, please go elsewhere.
Xeropa
09-08-2005, 14:09
If I were still a Christian, I would think that having a broader understanding of Jesus, would bring me closer to him, and therfore...God.
So..by using the other gospels that are not Canon, as learning devices, wich is essentially what all books are....and learning as much as I can about him, I would come to know him better.

Yes, true. Just as much can be gained in terms of understanding by reading Josephus, Herodotus(?) etc. But there is a difference between reading something which gives a historical context and reading the divinely inspired Word of God. Not just that a book which isn't divinely inspired is most probably human inspired, and more likely to contain bias, mistakes, assumptions etc.

As a Christian I rely on God's Word above all others, but I still gain something from reading people's words - I just don't give them equal standing.
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 14:09
BackwoodsSquatches:

But it isn't black and white....no where in the Gospel of Mary does it say "Jesus and Mary were married"....you are extrapolating...that isn't black and white...that is merely a theory.


and no extrapolation must be done elsewhere in the bible?

Heh...happens every day.
Cabra West
09-08-2005, 14:11
Again it comes down to faith. Sorry. I know we'd all like it all to be provable, but it just isn't, so we have to start from assumptions. Here's mine...

The Bible exists because God wants us to use it to understand the nature of the universe, how to live, etc. etc. etc. As such, it is an incredibly important document to Him, and He is more than capable of guiding the thoughts of the councils which drew together the canon to ensure His word got in, and bits that weren't His didn't.

Yes, it's simplistic. Yes, it's an assumption. But to think otherwise implies that God wasn't capable of getting His message to us. in which case we might as well all go home and would the last one out turn off the lights and put the chairs on the tables...

But isn't that exactly what you are implying when refering to doubts as being created by satan?
We assume that this book is god's word? Why? Well, because we were taught that it is, so because others think it is. Why do others think it is? Hopefully, because they thought about it and found it to contain at least some truth. So, why would we value the thought of others above our own?
If I doubt something, I'd rather believe it is god making me do that than the devil.
I believe that Jesus was a lot more than what is recounted in the bible, and I think that some of it has been misunderstood as it was recorded and/or misinterpreted later on. I don't regard the bible as holy, I don't see it as the word of god for the simple reason that it was written and edited by human beings.
Grave_n_idle
09-08-2005, 14:11
Just arguing for a moment, if the Bible said Jesus wasn't married, how many people would then declare marriage to be ungodly because Jesus wasn't? If God wants us to accept marriage as his plan for the family, but not His plan for Jesus, wouldn't it make sense for Him to want it leaving out?

I think this is largely a red herring anyway. Whether Jesus was married or not is totally irrelevant to his ministry, his teaching, and ultimately the entire point of his coming - his death and resurrection. Which is another thing that makes me think this text is not of God because it leads us off into irrelevant discussions which sidetrack us from understanding the point of Jesus being here in the first place. All it does is open the door for nonsense like the Merovingian bloodline and books like the daVinci Code.

Similarly, just arguing for a moment... if Jesus was NOT married, then he acts against his own words: Matthew 19:4-5 "And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh".

Or: Mark 10:6-7 "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife..."

Perhaps you NEED to understand Jesus as a married man, in order to understand why he was here in the first place. Perhaps Jesus' bride-on-earth is a 'type' of the 'bride' in Revelation?

Do you not think it close to hubris to assume that you can know what is 'irrelevent' in scripture? What is 'worth' considering?
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 14:12
BackwoodsSquatches:

Back that statement up with some evidence, please...I don't know of a single passage in the Bible that is extrapolated to mean something that is not actually written...please enlighten me.
Xeropa
09-08-2005, 14:17
I hate to have to do this, but I REALLY have to do some work. I'm going to call time now and do something I'm paid for.

Backwoods - it's been a pleasure and I hope to talk with you again sometime soon.

Woodsprites - God bless and thank you. The thread you started has encouraged me greatly and I've enjoyed reading your posts.

Omicron - I'm so terribly tempted to say I'll pray for you, but perhaps if I do i shouldn't tell you about it. ;) That's meant in good spirits as a joke - not to offend you and I'm deeply sorry if it does. I hope you manage a day soon without people hassling you.

Take care all.
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 14:20
BackwoodsSquatches:

Back that statement up with some evidence, please...I don't know of a single passage in the Bible that is extrapolated to mean something that is not actually written...please enlighten me.


What I mean by that is that Church groups all over the world can take a passage out of the bible and interperet it many ways.

Even such claims as outlandish as "God Hates fags!", and quote a bible passage to support thier claims.'

You see what I mean?

We extrapolate the bible everday, and many different people have different interpertations of what it all means.
Mellowmund
09-08-2005, 14:22
the clue is in the title, i know you didn't want to debate this and i'm sorry for enterring this thread but i can't keep my big nose out. whether it be islam, hinduism, christianity or anything else all it ever leads to is pain. The only differences between religions and cults are that religions are older and are bigger.

M
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 14:22
Backwoods - it's been a pleasure and I hope to talk with you again sometime soon.


Feeling's mutual.

G'Night.
Ffc2
09-08-2005, 14:25
You see while some are luke-warm nethier hot nor vold my LORD has said that he will spit them out. I am not like these luke-warm people
Old Farmingdale
09-08-2005, 14:28
What defines a "Christian"?
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 14:31
What defines a "Christian"?

accepting Jesus as your personal savoiur, I would think.
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 14:34
BackwoodsSquatches

There is a HUGE difference between in twisting a Bible passage and extrapolating....ie, How the KKK uses the Bible to justify racism....there is also a HUGE difference between different denominations interpreting passages a bit differently and extrapolation....ie, how Communion is viewed among different denominations....Lutherans believe that the bread IS the body and the wine IS the blood....Catholics believe that the bread TURNS INTO the body and the wine TURNS INTO the blood....Reformed Christians believe that the bread REPRESENTS the body and the wine REPRESENTS the blood....they all interpret it a bit differently, but none of them extrapolate the reason for Communion, as that is clearly stated in the Bible.
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 14:35
BackwoodsSquatches:

So I ask again...please cite some specific examples of extrapolation in the Bible.
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 14:42
BackwoodsSquatches:

So I ask again...please cite some specific examples of extrapolation in the Bible.


Forgive me, its very late, and I must get some sleep.
I will do some reading and find some examples, but keep in mind, when I present them, I can easily say "That passage means this" , and you can say "No no, it means this." and were are both extrapolating different versions of the same passage.

You must see that many many different groups take very different meanings form various passages within the Bible, and even over differences of one or two words.

I will look for some good examples tonight, and we can continue this coversation later.

Until then.
Ph33rdom
09-08-2005, 14:48
The recent 'exploration' of gnostic texts is a fad and likely to be a short-lived one. As people find out more and more about it (removing the attractive 'mystery of it all), the less and less fascinating it will be to them ... gnostic texts have been dismissed since even before the council of Nicea.

One of the quick to understand reasons why gnostic writings was/is (and will be again) rejected by those with understanding was that the gnostic literature rarely refers to the Old Testament. Gnostic exegetes were only interested in elaborating their mythic and theological speculations concerning the origins of the universe, not in appropriating a received canonical tradition nor in continuing a living and growing methodology of worshiping the living God. …

Unlike the Gnostic works that were rejected, the canonical Christian Bible originates in and continues and adheres to a Hebrew old testament framing of scripture. What became canonical and accepted scripture adhered to the older authority, as Jesus himself did, and to be ‘accepted scriptures’ had to retain this authority and serve as witnesses to the Christ-centered experience of salvation before they could gain acceptance in the approved ‘Bible.’ Gnostic texts could never have been included in the canon ~ they largely rejected the Scriptures the earliest Christians affirmed, the Hebrew Bible.

Even before that period, the formation of authoritative apostolic texts, was already taking place in the first century (New Testament) period. In 2 Peter 3:16, which says of Paul:

“He writes this same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures … "

Even if this text was written in the earliest years of the second century (as some New Testament scholars think), it makes plain that there was already a collection of Paul's letters that were considered authoritative and on a par with "Scriptures" and in addition to that, it tells us that ‘others’ were already misunderstanding and putting a non-Christian interpretation on them and how to act upon them.

Repeating“ which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures.”

Warning us that distortion of these messages was not acceptable and lawless interpretations should be rejected. Continuing … 2 Peter 3:17-18 ~

”You therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, beware that you are not carried away with the error of the lawless and lose your own stability. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and the day of eternity. Amen.”

In other words, even in the very early New Testament period, there was already a core of documents and ideas by which Christians evaluated other documents. The New Testament documents already manifest a concept of "orthodoxy," or at least criteria by which truth and error could be distinguished. Among the second-century lists of authoritative Scriptures, never are gnostic texts listed—not even by the unorthodox Marcion in about 140. There was never a time when a wide selection of books, including gnostic ones, were widely deemed acceptable.
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 14:49
BackwoodsSquatches:

It's been fun!! I look forward to reading what you have found....any church that is Christian all interprets the Bible in the same way....there are minor differences that make each denomination unique...but, again, that is not extrapolation...they are not reading into more than what is there in black and white.
The definition of extrapolation is this: Extrapolation is an estimation of a value based on extending a known sequence of values or facts beyond the area that is certainly known.
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 14:54
Ph33rdom:

Thank you so much for that post....I don't know much about the history of the gnostic texts...I just know that they aren't meant to be part of the Bible.
Grave_n_idle
09-08-2005, 15:01
Forgive me, its very late, and I must get some sleep.
I will do some reading and find some examples, but keep in mind, when I present them, I can easily say "That passage means this" , and you can say "No no, it means this." and were are both extrapolating different versions of the same passage.

You must see that many many different groups take very different meanings form various passages within the Bible, and even over differences of one or two words.

I will look for some good examples tonight, and we can continue this coversation later.

Until then.

Just a suggestion... the assertion that the 'serpent' in Eden is the same entity as 'Satan' is pure extrapolation...
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 15:03
Just a suggestion... the assertion that the 'serpent' in Eden is the same entity as 'Satan' is pure extrapolation...

HAH!

I hadnt gone quite yet!!

Can I use this one?!
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 15:05
Grave_n_idle:

Not so....Ezekiel 28:12-15
"Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
'You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared. You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. (NIV)

This passage is talking about the fall of Lucifer....no extrapolation...he was in the garden of Eden...it is stated in black and white.
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 15:07
Grave_n_idle:

Not so....Ezekiel 28:12-15
"Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
'You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared. You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. (NIV)

This passage is talking about the fall of Lucifer....no extrapolation...he was in the garden of Eden...it is stated in black and white.

But..where does it say plainly, that Satan was the snake?

and from the looks of it, it lookas like a message to a king, telling him what a bastard hes being.
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 15:13
heres another.

Mind you Im deleriously tired, and this may come off as non sense, but are you familir with the movie Pulp Fiction?

Samuel Jackson's and Travolta's characters are talking about Ezekiel 25:17.

Jackson gives a little speech about what he thinks its about.

If I could find a transpcript of the scene, I would post it here.
Its a clear example of how bible passages are extrapolated differently, all the time.
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 15:17
BackwoodsSquatches:

Read the whole passage that is in the Bible...is it poetic?...yes....no one else was in the Garden of Eden besides Adam, Eve, God and Satan.....how did a king get there?...the king is called a cherub...who has fallen...does that passage describe him as a serpent, no, but this one does:

Revelation 12:9 and 20:2 both describe Satan as a serpent. “And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,” (Revelation 20:2). “And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him” (Revelation 12:9).

That seems pretty black and white to me.
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 15:19
BackwoodsSquatches:

Please don't confuse "extrapolate" with "interpret".....they are very different.
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 15:20
BackwoodsSquatches:

I have never seen "Pulp Fiction"....so when you are a bit more awake you'll have to explain the scene to me.
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 15:22
BackwoodsSquatches:

Read the whole passage that is in the Bible...is it poetic?...yes....no one else was in the Garden of Eden besides Adam, Eve, God and Satan.....how did a king get there?...the king is called a cherub...who has fallen...does that passage describe him as a serpent, no, but this one does:

Revelation 12:9 and 20:2 both describe Satan as a serpent. “And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,” (Revelation 20:2). “And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him” (Revelation 12:9).

That seems pretty black and white to me.

Ok..so whats with "the king of Tyre"?

and if your going to correllate one passage with another, to connect the serpent in the garden of Eden, with Satan, it would help if it were in the same testament.
Heh..otherwise I cant keep up.
To me, it sounds like conjecture, and Im trying to use bible passages as the basis of my own conjectures...
BackwoodsSquatches
09-08-2005, 15:23
BackwoodsSquatches:

I have never seen "Pulp Fiction"....so when you are a bit more awake you'll have to explain the scene to me.


agreed.

When I come back on much later tonight, I'll bring a transcript of the scene with me.
Night!
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 15:46
Sorry, I was having problems with my computer...I found this...I hope that it helps explain about the king of Tyre:

The 26th to 28th chapters of the book Ezekiel contain a complex and partially homogeneous account of the "King of Tyre" or "Prince of Tyre" which actually describes 3 separate players of Bible History and Prophecy - a king of the ancient city of Tyre, a great end-time religious/military leader, and Satan.

The King Of Ancient Tyre

"Son of man, because Tyre said concerning Jerusalem, 'Aha, the gate of the peoples is broken, it has swung open to me; I shall be replenished, now that she is laid waste,' therefore thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am against you, O Tyre, and will bring up many nations against you, as the sea brings up its waves."

"Behold, I will bring upon Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar [see also Ancient Empires - Babylon] king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, and with horsemen and a host of many soldiers. He will slay with the sword your daughters on the mainland; he will set up a siege wall against you, and throw up a mound against you, and raise a roof of shields against you. He will direct the shock of his battering rams against your walls, and with his axes he will break down your towers. His horses will be so many that their dust will cover you; your walls will shake at the noise of the horsemen and wagons and chariots, when he enters your gates as one enters a city which has been breached." (Ezekiel 26:2-3,7-10 RSV)

A Great End-time Religious/Military Leader

"Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, Thus says the Lord God: "Because your heart is proud, and you have said, 'I am a god, I sit in the seat of the gods [see The Abomination of Desolation], in the heart of the seas,' yet you are but a man, and no god, though you consider yourself as wise as a god - you are indeed wiser than Daniel; no secret is hidden from you; by your wisdom and your understanding you have gotten wealth for yourself, and have gathered gold and silver into your treasuries; by your great wisdom in trade you have increased your wealth, and your heart has become proud in your wealth." (Ezekiel 28:2-5 RSV)

Satan

"Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord God: "You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, carnelian, topaz, and jasper, chrysolite, beryl, and onyx, sapphire, carbuncle, and emerald; and wrought in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created [see Did God Create The Devil?] they were prepared. With an anointed guardian cherub I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you." (Ezekiel 28:12-14 RSV)
Grave_n_idle
09-08-2005, 16:15
Grave_n_idle:

Not so....Ezekiel 28:12-15
"Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
'You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared. You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. (NIV)

This passage is talking about the fall of Lucifer....no extrapolation...he was in the garden of Eden...it is stated in black and white.

Wow... talk about a comedy of extrapolation...

Who is this Lucifer of which you speak? I assume you are talking about the Vulgate translation of the name Heylel - arguably from the primitive root 'halal' - meaning (pretty much) EITHER to shine OR "to boast"... In fact, of the 165 times 'Halal' is used in the Old Testament, it means "Praise" on 117 occassions. And looking at the context of the King of Tyre, and the context of the 'fall from grace'... it seems obvious that Heylel is based on the 'proud' meaning of 'Halal'.

So - where did the 'Lucifer' come from? Lucifer is a mistranslation in the Latin, based on mistranslation in the Greek... where 'Heylel' was one of half a dozen words wrongly translated as 'phosphorus' - "Light-Giver"


Okay - now let's look at the specific context of Ezekiel. It has been clearly established in the verses leading up, that we are talking to the literal King of Tyrus (Tyre)... from details of ships trading with Egypt, to a direct assertion that the King of Tyre is but a man... no metaphor, no 'devil'. A man with high aspirations and an aver-arching pride, but still a man : Ezekiel 28:2 "Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God"...

Thus, the 'walking in the garden of Eden', and the 'cherub' references are metaphor... these are the words Ezekiel says he was given to say to a literal, temporal monarch. A clear prophecy of his death - even down to the very mortal manner of his passing:

Ezekiel 28:7-8 "Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas"..


Now, let's see where the actual context of the mistranslated 'Lucifer' leads us: Isaiah 14:12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer [proud one], son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations"!". The preceding verses show this to be a prophetic vision of Isaiah, in which the OTHER KINGS are talking to the King of Babylon. They mock him for his high aspirations, and his low ending.

Thus, the 'fall from heaven' is figurative... both because it is part of a vision (and thus not literal 'text' scripture), and because it is specifically the word OF men, to a man, (The King of Babylon).

(Worth noting, perhaps... the only link that could make this 'Lucifer' a serpent, is the fact that this passage seems to be stolen - almost word-for-word - from a much earlier Canaanite version of Babylonian myth - about 'Helel', the dragon).

So, let's recount:

1) The use of the name Lucifer - erroneous extrapolation, due to mistranslation.
2) Extrapolation of the King of Tyre as a supernatural being, from use of metaphor.
3) Extrapolation of the King of Babylon as a supernatural being, through use of metaphor - OR through misappropriation of Mesopotamian mythology.

And, STILL, no mention of 'the serpent'. 'Lucifer' isn't named as 'the serpent'; 'Heylel' isn't 'the serpent'; 'Halal' isn't 'the serpent'. In fact, the nearest we get is 'Helel', and only if we admit that this text was stolen from another religion.

You have taken one extrapolation, and combined it with two other extrapolations to reach the flawed conclusion of a 'figure in Eden' - which you have then FURTHER extrapolated to make THAT figure into the SAME figure as 'the serpent' of Genesis.

Thank you, for making my point for me.
Grave_n_idle
09-08-2005, 16:25
BackwoodsSquatches:

Read the whole passage that is in the Bible...is it poetic?...yes....no one else was in the Garden of Eden besides Adam, Eve, God and Satan.....how did a king get there?...the king is called a cherub...who has fallen...does that passage describe him as a serpent, no, but this one does:

Revelation 12:9 and 20:2 both describe Satan as a serpent. “And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,” (Revelation 20:2). “And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him” (Revelation 12:9).

That seems pretty black and white to me.

1) The 'Garden of Eden" reference is metaphor, nothing more.

2) Who was in the garden of Eden? The only LISTED characters in Genesis are Adam, Eve, the Serpent, a multitude of beasts (non-specific), one (or more) gods - (based on the fact that Elohim is plural)...

But, that doesn't mean there were no other characters in the garden... where did the daughters come from that Cain married? They are not mentioned in the 'chronology'.

3) The King is called a Cherub... and yet, there were no Cherubs listed in the garden.

4) Even if Satan were the name of an angel (rather than the rank, as evidenced in Job) - why would you assume it must be a Cherub, rather than a Seraph? (Or Throne, Dominion, Principality, Power, Virtue, Dominion or Archangel)?

5) Neither of the references you cite say anything about SPECIFICALLY the serpent in Eden... both refer to 'the serpent of old' or the 'ancient serpent'... but neither ties THAT serpentine figure to Eden.

More evidence of extrapolation, I'm afraid.
Wounded Harts
09-08-2005, 16:34
BackwoodsSquatches:

Read the whole passage that is in the Bible...is it poetic?...yes....no one else was in the Garden of Eden besides Adam, Eve, God and Satan.....how did a king get there?...the king is called a cherub...who has fallen...does that passage describe him as a serpent, no, but this one does:

Revelation 12:9 and 20:2 both describe Satan as a serpent. “And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,” (Revelation 20:2). “And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him” (Revelation 12:9).

That seems pretty black and white to me.



I like what you said. It is very poetic and yes it seems pretty black and white to me also.
Grave_n_idle
09-08-2005, 16:35
Sorry, I was having problems with my computer...I found this...I hope that it helps explain about the king of Tyre:

The 26th to 28th chapters of the book Ezekiel contain a complex and partially homogeneous account of the "King of Tyre" or "Prince of Tyre" which actually describes 3 separate players of Bible History and Prophecy - a king of the ancient city of Tyre, a great end-time religious/military leader, and Satan.


You can CHOOSE to read it that way, if you wish - but it isn't necessarily in the text. The context suggests that Ezekiel is railing against ONE King of Tyre in specific, and against the OFFICE of the King of Tyre, in abstract.

The context suggests that Ezekiel is telling the King that he will eventually fall, just as ALL kings do... and that, when you are dead, it doesn't matter how 'high' you climbed, you still end up in the same earth.

I argue that you NEED to read it as Ancient/Leader/Satan, in order that it can satisfy your extrapolation. It still doesn't 'fit', of course... but you can blur the edges enough that it's hard to tell.
Neo Rogolia
09-08-2005, 17:19
Phenixica:

What does calling someone who is atheist "arrogant" do to further the Kingdom of God? Does it help them understand Jesus' love for them and His sacrifice on the cross? Does it make them want to learn more about the Bible and the Gospel?...just wondering...


Jesus wasn't afraid to describe the Pharisees for what they were: Hypocrites.
Bruarong
09-08-2005, 17:56
Jesus wasn't afraid to describe the Pharisees for what they were: Hypocrites.

Perhaps that was Jesus' priviledge, being God and all. He has the right to judge, being the Son of Man.

On the other hand, Stephen certainly called them some harsh names. And look what he got!! And yet I have not read of Paul calling names in public, but rather he seemed to appeal to their sense of decency and common sense. And he still got the same treatment.

Personally, I feel that the atheists (and others like them) on NS are hardly going to be convinced by name calling. It hasn't worked before. Why should it start now? If, however, the atheists ever got in power, and made it illegal to worship God, and forced everyone to worship themselves, then if you still felt like calling them hypocrites, then Neo, I would say go for it!!
JuNii
09-08-2005, 18:00
Jesus wasn't afraid to describe the Pharisees for what they were: Hypocrites.
and now days, we use something called Tact. it helps to get your message across without being confrontational.
Florrisant States
09-08-2005, 20:03
Where have you seen tact on this forum, or in a school for that matter?
Tact does not mean letting someone get away with dishonoring you. It means you take a less serious step than chopping the offender's head off.
Woodsprites
09-08-2005, 23:16
Grave_n_idle:

I'm not on here to get into some huge arguement...a) it doesn't prove anything....b) honestly I have more constructive things to do, than go round and round in a forum....I liked the conversation that I was having earlier because it wasn't about trying to "prove" something to the other, even though we were debating....

so, this will be my last response to you:

to answer all of your questions in the order that you asked them:

1: Whether you interpret this as a metaphor or not, it is up to you....but I know how every major denomination of Christianity interprets this passage....and it is meant quite literally, but poetically.

2: Chronologically, in Genisis, the serpent went to Eve in chapter 3....and Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden in chapter 3....and in chapter (they were not living in the garden anymore because that happened in chapter three) they children....so you see, there were no other people in the Garden of Eden since they were they only two humans at that point.

3: No, you are right, there were no cherubs in the garden of Eden....because Satan fell and became Satan, so he was no longer considered in God's favor and one of His angels....he became a "free agent" if you will ....that is stated clearly here:

Ezekiel 14 & 15 "You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you."

4: Satan was not named Satan until after his fall...and mostly he is referred to as Satan in the New Testament:

Lucifer means lightbringer, from the Latin lux "light" and ferre "to bear or bring." The word Lucifer is found in only one place in the Bible -- Isaiah 14:12 -- but only in the King James and related versions: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! . . ." The New Revised Standard Version translates the same passage as "How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, Son of Dawn!" In other translations we find: "O shining star of the dawn!" (Moffatt) or "O morning-star, son of the dawn!" (Hebrew Bible). The King James Version is based on the Vulgate, the Latin translation of Jerome. Jerome translated the Hebrew helel (bright or brilliant one) as "lucifer," which was a reasonable Latin equivalent. And yet it is this lucifer, the bright one or lightbearer, that came to be understood by so many as the name for Satan, Lord of Darkness.

The following passage uses the term Satan....but Jesus also accounts Satan falling from heaven....much like the how the passage below it also talks of him being cast down to earth...and how the passage in Isaiah 14:12 also mentions him falling from heaven:
Luke 10:18-20
V18 And He said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
V19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
V20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Ezekiel 28:12-19 (New International Version)
12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: " 'You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 3 You were in Eden,
the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, [a] turquoise and beryl. [b] Your settings and mountings [c] were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared. 14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. 15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. 16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. 17 Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings. 18 By your many sins and dishonest trade you have desecrated your sanctuaries. So I made a fire come out from you, and it consumed you, and I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching. 19 All the nations who knew you are appalled at you; you have come to a horrible end and will be no more.' "

5: Reading all of the passages that refer to Satan in the Bible gives you the ENTIRE picture of him and his story...in Revelation, no it does not talk specifically about him being in the Garden...but it does in Ezekiel....in Ezekiel it does not specifically mention Satan being a serpent...but it does in Revelation...bring the two together and you have a more complete picture of Satan's history. There have been different interpretations on the origin of Satan and what these passages mean, but those interpretations are not widely accepted among the main stream Christian denominations...but that is VERY different than extrapolation....I have never said that the Bible isn't open to interpretation....give me a day and I could come up with a way to defend cannabilism using the Bible....but I will always lean towards the interpretation that is the MOST accepted by Christian Bible scholars.

It has been fun..and it has been great to show everyone that debating religion doesn't have to get personal....but I am done with everyone hi-jacking a thread that was meant for Christians to be encouraged to love their fellow man...so you guys can take it over, I'm bowing out...and have fun....but, please, in light of what this thread is about, keep it civil and loving.

Grave_n_idle: I will never convince you of anything that you don't believe in...and beating my head against a wall (even though it does burn 150 cal/hour) isn't my idea of fun....if you have other ideas on the interpretation of all of the passages that I have put on here...great...so we agree to disagree....but all that shows is that interpretation or misinterpretation of the Bible can vary greatly...but that shows nothing about extrapolation...any connections that I have made have been in black and white...but you don't have to interpret them the way that I do....that was never my arguement....so let us just say that we don't agree and leave it at that...because I think that we are beating a dead horse here...but it has been fun...and you are a great and worthy debating opponent!! Have a good one!!
Sel Appa
09-08-2005, 23:47
Faith and belief is something that occurs deep in the heart...
More dogma: thoughts and feelings come from the brain.
BackwoodsSquatches
10-08-2005, 09:20
Sorry, I was having problems with my computer...I found this...I hope that it helps explain about the king of Tyre:

The 26th to 28th chapters of the book Ezekiel contain a complex and partially homogeneous account of the "King of Tyre" or "Prince of Tyre" which actually describes 3 separate players of Bible History and Prophecy - a king of the ancient city of Tyre, a great end-time religious/military leader, and Satan.

The King Of Ancient Tyre

"Son of man, because Tyre said concerning Jerusalem, 'Aha, the gate of the peoples is broken, it has swung open to me; I shall be replenished, now that she is laid waste,' therefore thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am against you, O Tyre, and will bring up many nations against you, as the sea brings up its waves."

"Behold, I will bring upon Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar [see also Ancient Empires - Babylon] king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, and with horsemen and a host of many soldiers. He will slay with the sword your daughters on the mainland; he will set up a siege wall against you, and throw up a mound against you, and raise a roof of shields against you. He will direct the shock of his battering rams against your walls, and with his axes he will break down your towers. His horses will be so many that their dust will cover you; your walls will shake at the noise of the horsemen and wagons and chariots, when he enters your gates as one enters a city which has been breached." (Ezekiel 26:2-3,7-10 RSV)

A Great End-time Religious/Military Leader

"Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, Thus says the Lord God: "Because your heart is proud, and you have said, 'I am a god, I sit in the seat of the gods [see The Abomination of Desolation], in the heart of the seas,' yet you are but a man, and no god, though you consider yourself as wise as a god - you are indeed wiser than Daniel; no secret is hidden from you; by your wisdom and your understanding you have gotten wealth for yourself, and have gathered gold and silver into your treasuries; by your great wisdom in trade you have increased your wealth, and your heart has become proud in your wealth." (Ezekiel 28:2-5 RSV)

Satan

"Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord God: "You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, carnelian, topaz, and jasper, chrysolite, beryl, and onyx, sapphire, carbuncle, and emerald; and wrought in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created [see Did God Create The Devil?] they were prepared. With an anointed guardian cherub I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you." (Ezekiel 28:12-14 RSV)

Heya Sprites...

I really think these sound like different interperetations of the same verse.
Like, the difference between old texts that are translated slightly different.

Obviously, they are the same speech, amde to this King of Tyre.
My question is, is it possible that this particular King, was quite the tyrant, and caused enough havoc among his, or other people, that they labelled him "The DEVIL", so in translation, one mentions Satan, while the others refer to Monarch of a city-state?

In all three versions, someone is being denounced quite thouroughly.

But couldnt this be taken to meaning that the person doing the berating, is comparing that Monorch to the devil, and not specifically talking TO Satan himself?

Much in the same way people compare Hitler to Satan, or Stalin, It may be that this guy was a particular bastard, and history was blurred distinguishing this king, and an evil moniker?
Grave_n_idle
10-08-2005, 14:08
Grave_n_idle:

I'm not on here to get into some huge arguement...a) it doesn't prove anything....b) honestly I have more constructive things to do, than go round and round in a forum....I liked the conversation that I was having earlier because it wasn't about trying to "prove" something to the other, even though we were debating....

so, this will be my last response to you:

to answer all of your questions in the order that you asked them:

1: Whether you interpret this as a metaphor or not, it is up to you....but I know how every major denomination of Christianity interprets this passage....and it is meant quite literally, but poetically.

2: Chronologically, in Genisis, the serpent went to Eve in chapter 3....and Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden in chapter 3....and in chapter (they were not living in the garden anymore because that happened in chapter three) they children....so you see, there were no other people in the Garden of Eden since they were they only two humans at that point.

3: No, you are right, there were no cherubs in the garden of Eden....because Satan fell and became Satan, so he was no longer considered in God's favor and one of His angels....he became a "free agent" if you will ....that is stated clearly here:

Ezekiel 14 & 15 "You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you."

4: Satan was not named Satan until after his fall...and mostly he is referred to as Satan in the New Testament:

Lucifer means lightbringer, from the Latin lux "light" and ferre "to bear or bring." The word Lucifer is found in only one place in the Bible -- Isaiah 14:12 -- but only in the King James and related versions: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! . . ." The New Revised Standard Version translates the same passage as "How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, Son of Dawn!" In other translations we find: "O shining star of the dawn!" (Moffatt) or "O morning-star, son of the dawn!" (Hebrew Bible). The King James Version is based on the Vulgate, the Latin translation of Jerome. Jerome translated the Hebrew helel (bright or brilliant one) as "lucifer," which was a reasonable Latin equivalent. And yet it is this lucifer, the bright one or lightbearer, that came to be understood by so many as the name for Satan, Lord of Darkness.

The following passage uses the term Satan....but Jesus also accounts Satan falling from heaven....much like the how the passage below it also talks of him being cast down to earth...and how the passage in Isaiah 14:12 also mentions him falling from heaven:
Luke 10:18-20
V18 And He said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
V19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
V20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Ezekiel 28:12-19 (New International Version)
12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: " 'You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 3 You were in Eden,
the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, [a] turquoise and beryl. [b] Your settings and mountings [c] were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared. 14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. 15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. 16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. 17 Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings. 18 By your many sins and dishonest trade you have desecrated your sanctuaries. So I made a fire come out from you, and it consumed you, and I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching. 19 All the nations who knew you are appalled at you; you have come to a horrible end and will be no more.' "

5: Reading all of the passages that refer to Satan in the Bible gives you the ENTIRE picture of him and his story...in Revelation, no it does not talk specifically about him being in the Garden...but it does in Ezekiel....in Ezekiel it does not specifically mention Satan being a serpent...but it does in Revelation...bring the two together and you have a more complete picture of Satan's history. There have been different interpretations on the origin of Satan and what these passages mean, but those interpretations are not widely accepted among the main stream Christian denominations...but that is VERY different than extrapolation....I have never said that the Bible isn't open to interpretation....give me a day and I could come up with a way to defend cannabilism using the Bible....but I will always lean towards the interpretation that is the MOST accepted by Christian Bible scholars.

It has been fun..and it has been great to show everyone that debating religion doesn't have to get personal....but I am done with everyone hi-jacking a thread that was meant for Christians to be encouraged to love their fellow man...so you guys can take it over, I'm bowing out...and have fun....but, please, in light of what this thread is about, keep it civil and loving.

Grave_n_idle: I will never convince you of anything that you don't believe in...and beating my head against a wall (even though it does burn 150 cal/hour) isn't my idea of fun....if you have other ideas on the interpretation of all of the passages that I have put on here...great...so we agree to disagree....but all that shows is that interpretation or misinterpretation of the Bible can vary greatly...but that shows nothing about extrapolation...any connections that I have made have been in black and white...but you don't have to interpret them the way that I do....that was never my arguement....so let us just say that we don't agree and leave it at that...because I think that we are beating a dead horse here...but it has been fun...and you are a great and worthy debating opponent!! Have a good one!!

If you ever feel like actually debating, drop me a line. You seem like you might have some potential.

I'll leave this alone... I won't point out the obvious flaws in the logic...

The ONLY thing I'll say is: You, yourself, have admitted that the information is NOT given or directly stated in any single part of scripture, and that you have to draw conclusions from combining data and forming a conclusion... and that pretty much describes extrapolation.

I haven't been arguing the truth of scripture, or the validity of any of the given aspects of the faith - ONLY whether or not modern Christianity extrapolates - and, I think the evidence is firmly in favour of a 'they do' response.

It's also worth noting, perhaps, that Christians didn't start considering Satan and Lucifer as synonymous until Milton suggested it... and, I, personally, don't consider Milton to be 'scriptural'.