NationStates Jolt Archive

Just a thought, if one of the fundimental beliefs of Christianty is to forgive one another then surely the splitters from the Catholic church should have forgiven them after the reformation of the church. Plus, how can you devote your life to a religion that was set up by a King because he wanted a divorce?

Im not a very religious person so there is probably good explanations for these that i dont know.

Well, the thing is, the Catholic Church still does things wrong. There's no need to forgive them for that. ;)

Just a thought, if one of the fundimental beliefs of Christianty is to forgive one another then surely the splitters from the Catholic church should have forgiven them after the reformation of the church. Plus, how can you devote your life to a religion that was set up by a King because he wanted a divorce?

Both of these points are missing the fundamental difference between Protestantism and Roman Catholicism: within Protestantism there is no need for a church apparatus to mediate an individual's relationship to God: instead each Protestant stands in an unmediated absolute relationship to the Absolute. This is the big difference, not some historical accidents surrounding the birth of the movement a few hundred years ago.

Just a thought, if one of the fundimental beliefs of Christianty is to forgive one another then surely the splitters from the Catholic church should have forgiven them after the reformation of the church. Plus, how can you devote your life to a religion that was set up by a King because he wanted a divorce?

That's Anglicanism. Protestantism is something else.

That and you're still acting like dicks over women priests ;)

I hold no grudges against the Catholic Church (aside from my general dislike of church structures) but there's plenty you could improve on.

Both of these points are missing the fundamental difference between Protestantism and Roman Catholicism: within Protestantism there is no need for a church apparatus to mediate an individual's relationship to God: instead each Protestant stands in an unmediated absolute relationship to the Absolute. This is the big difference, not some historical accidents surrounding the birth of the movement a few hundred years ago.
I thought Protestantism was formed when the King of England wanted a divorce and the pope wouldnt grant it so he started his own church.

I thought Protestantism was formed when the King of England wanted a divorce and the pope wouldnt grant it so he started his own church.

No, again, that's Anglicanism. Google "Martin Luther" and "Reformation."

I thought Protestantism was formed when the King of England wanted a divorce and the pope wouldnt grant it so he started his own church.

No, Protestantism started when Martin Luther grafitti'd the church doors. Anglicanism kicked off when Henry VIII got pissy with the Pope.

I thought Luterism was a seperate religion than Protestism, like Calvinism and Knoxism

I thought Luterism was a seperate religion than Protestism, like Calvinism and Knoxism

Google it already!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation

I thought Luterism was a seperate religion than Protestism, like Calvinism and Knoxism

Nope: Protestantism is an umbrella term that covers all those churches and many others.

I google for no man!! But should Luther not have just forgiven the church in the first place??? tink about it.....

I google for no man!! But should Luther not have just forgiven the church in the first place??? tink about it.....

No, he shouldn't have. Google, and you'll understand why.

I google for no man!! But should Luther not have just forgiven the church in the first place??? tink about it.....

Why? They were 'wrong' in their practices. It is possible to forgive them for their 'errors', but this does not mean that their 'errors' must be accepted as truth.

I google for no man!! But should Luther not have just forgiven the church in the first place??? tink about it.....He "did". It was the Lutherans that didn't.

OK, it's this simple.

If you aren't Catholic, you're protestant.

Protestant includes all the Orthodox churches along with Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists, Seventh-day Adventists, my very own United Reformed Church and a hundred others.

OK, it's this simple.

If you aren't Catholic, you're protestant.

Protestant includes all the Orthodox churches along with Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists, Seventh-day Adventists, my very own United Reformed Church and a hundred others.

Actually, Anglicans view themselves as "reformed catholics".

OK, it's this simple.

If you aren't Catholic, you're protestant.

Ergo: Ariel Sharron is a Protestant?

Ah.. the ignorance. :rolleyes:

Protestantism includes both Lutheranism and Anglicanism. The former traditionally the original form of protestantism, started by Martin Luther when he found the Catholic church immoral and corrupt.

Ahh now i see. Why can't we all just get along?? :) Do yous ever think there will be a united Christian church?

Ergo: Ariel Sharron is a Protestant?

I was talking in terms of Christianity here...


Actually, Anglicans view themselves as "reformed catholics".

Maybe so but then Martin Luther's protest was for a reform of the Catholic Church was it not?

Ahh now i see. Why can't we all just get along??

Why? Because at least some of us, possibly all of us, are fundamentally wrong in our beliefs about God.

I google for no man!! But should Luther not have just forgiven the church in the first place??? tink about it.....

The problem with that is that Luther wasn't complaining over a single forgiveable incident. He disagreed with the way the Roman Catholic church was being run. That meant he needed to act to change the system, not just forgive the church.

As an aside, this topic does raise a good point though. it seems to me that forgiveness is just one of many Christian virtues (and no, not exclusively Christian, but nevertheless taught and expected by Christianity) which seems to be sadly disappearing in our current society. Along with grace, kindness, gentleness and sensitivity. Reading through the vitriol spilled out in this forum in recent times, there seems to be only occasional glimpses of most of these. Which strikes me as very sad.

Ahh now i see. Why can't we all just get along?? :) Do yous ever think there will be a united Christian church?
there is no need for a united christian church. people see things in different ways; the different denominations cover that

i dont think orthodox is protestant. i think its roman catholic, protestant, and orthodox. (and perhaps coptic)

Ahh now i see. Why can't we all just get along?? :) Do yous ever think there will be a united Christian church?Not with Papa Ratzi... :p

Just a thought, if one of the fundimental beliefs of Christianty is to forgive one another then surely the splitters from the Catholic church should have forgiven them after the reformation of the church. Plus, how can you devote your life to a religion that was set up by a King because he wanted a divorce?

Im not a very religious person so there is probably good explanations for these that i dont know.

I assume your refering to Anglicans. As Lutherans, Calvinists, etc... faiths were not set up by a King because he wanted a divorce

i dont think orthodox is protestant. i think its roman catholic, protestant, and orthodox. (and perhaps coptic)

IIRC it considers itself to be 'Catholic' but not 'Roman Catholic', and sees itself as the true Church, with the Vatican having split away from it.

IIRC it considers itself to be 'Catholic' but not 'Roman Catholic', and sees itself as the true Church, with the Vatican having split away from it.Do you know a church that doesn't consider itself this? :p

IIRC it considers itself to be 'Catholic' but not 'Roman Catholic', and sees itself as the true Church, with the Vatican having split away from it.
Exactly, the Orthodox church even calls itself 'Catholic'. BTW, don't the Anglicans also?

Do you know a church that doesn't consider itself this? :p

A moment of inattentiveness there on my part: I was actually thinking of writing 'the true lineage of the Church as descended through the Apostles', which is a slightly different thing, but just charged ahead with the rest of the sentence.

A church which doesn't consider itself to be the true church? easy: Church of Satan - LaVey and his cronies, or possibly the Unitarian Universalists who seem to take a very post-modernist attitude to the whole thorny question of truth.

I was talking in terms of Christianity here...

You still forgot the Orthodox Christians.

Maybe so but then Martin Luther's protest was for a reform of the Catholic Church was it not?

And it wasn't reformed. The Anglican church was, though, but still remains closer to catholicism than protestantism/lutheranism.

Exactly, the Orthodox church even calls itself 'Catholic'. BTW, don't the Anglicans also?

Possibly, but the exact definition here is somewhat slippery - lets not forget that 'Catholic' also just means 'universal' as well as refering to established churches.

You still forgot the Orthodox Christians.

Nope: see above. They term themselves 'Catholics' but not 'Roman Catholics'.

OK, it's this simple.

If you aren't Catholic, you're protestant.

Protestant includes all the Orthodox churches along with Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists, Seventh-day Adventists, my very own United Reformed Church and a hundred others.

I'm sure Orthodox Christians would be a little surprised to find themselves lumped in with Protestants, especially as they have much more in common theologically with the Catholics.

Nope: see above. They term themselves 'Catholics' but not 'Roman Catholics'.

Not all do. It is a very fragmented faith, and for instance, the followers of the Serbian Orthodox Church are very anti-Catholic...

Actually, Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism were the same church for a while, but they disagreed on something, I think it was about where the capital should be-Rome, or Constantinople. They practice pretty much the same way, with some slight differences. Protestantism is every other sect of Christianity, other than Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, including Aglican, Lutheran, Presbyterian, etc. But Protestantism came about after the original Catholic church split between east and west. So basically, there are three main divisions of Christianity, two of which are further divided, Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy. It just so happens that all the other sects of Christianity/Protestantism split from Roman Catholicism, and Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism were divided, rather than one splitting from the other. They both say they are the true form of Christianity, the one that came first, but they actually came both at the same time.

Protestantism is every other sect of Christianity, other than Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, including Aglican, Lutheran, Presbyterian, etc.

...however, some groups, such as the Quakers, don't consider themselves to actually be part of Protestantism, Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy.

The Orthodox Church split over the acceptability of icons (religious pictures) and whether one was "praying" to them. Protestantism began with Martin Luther's criticism of the Catholic Church. BTW, most (if not all) of what he objected to is no longer done by the Catholic church (I don't know why I bothered to point this out, all the fundamentalists are going to come out of the woodwork to call me a liar). Anglicanism was founded by Henry VIII because he wanted a divorce. Google things, people.

Ahh now i see. Why can't we all just get along?? :) Do yous ever think there will be a united Christian church?

Yea in heaven.

Not all do. It is a very fragmented faith, and for instance, the followers of the Serbian Orthodox Church are very anti-Catholic...
No one in the Eastern Orthodox church calls it 'Catholic' in everyday life. In Russian it is usually translated into вселенская церковь 'all-world church', i.e. 'catholic church'. The official name of the Church, which is almost never used, is 'греко-кафолическая' 'Greek Catholic'; the Russian language uses a different letter in the word 'Catholic' than it does for 'Catholic' in the sense 'Roman Catholic'.

Just a thought, if one of the fundimental beliefs of Christianty is to forgive one another then surely the splitters from the Catholic church should have forgiven them after the reformation of the church. Plus, how can you devote your life to a religion that was set up by a King because he wanted a divorce?

Im not a very religious person so there is probably good explanations for these that i dont know.
It's not a matter of "forgiving."

Luther posted his 95 theses to a door of a church, listing the ways in which the Catholic church was fucking up the job at the time. Luther wanted the church to reform, etc.
The Catholic church then did what it was so apt to do at the time, try and shut him up. What followed was a series of events which led to his excommunication and the persecution of some of those that went along with him.

To be frank, the Catholic church as it is now, it not the Catholic church that was, so I have no hard feelings against any catholics (hell, I'm at a catholic school and some of my best friends are catholic). However I have no desire to join the Catholic church as my own subset of protestantism (Lutheranism) suits me just fine.

As for the king comment, I realize that this has been addressed, but honestly, do a little reseach first.

OK, it's this simple.

If you aren't Catholic, you're protestant.

Protestant includes all the Orthodox churches along with Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists, Seventh-day Adventists, my very own United Reformed Church and a hundred others.



*ahem* Eastern Orthodoxy...

Actually, Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism were the same church for a while, but they disagreed on something, I think it was about where the capital should be-Rome, or Constantinople. They practice pretty much the same way, with some slight differences. Protestantism is every other sect of Christianity, other than Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, including Aglican, Lutheran, Presbyterian, etc. But Protestantism came about after the original Catholic church split between east and west. So basically, there are three main divisions of Christianity, two of which are further divided, Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy. It just so happens that all the other sects of Christianity/Protestantism split from Roman Catholicism, and Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism were divided, rather than one splitting from the other. They both say they are the true form of Christianity, the one that came first, but they actually came both at the same time.



Not really, when the Roman Catholics splintered the faith with their heretical doctrines, it became necessary for the Christians practicing orthodoxy to distinguish themselves from the heretics. Thus, while the term "Eastern Orthodox" originated around the time of the schism, it had, in actuality, existed ever since the founding of the faith.

Just a thought, if one of the fundimental beliefs of Christianty is to forgive one another then surely the splitters from the Catholic church should have forgiven them after the reformation of the church.

Except the Papal office is a major contention; not merely between the Continental Reformed and Lutheran (Protestant Churches); but also the Eastern Orthodox Churches. Not to mention several other contentions, between the Continental Reformed and Lutherans over Communion.


Plus, how can you devote your life to a religion that was set up by a King because he wanted a divorce?

You don't know much about the reformation. Henry VIII established the Anglican Church (Church of England); and has little to do with the work of the reformers on the continent (Luther, Zwingli and Calvin). While your question may apply to those of Anglican descent (The Church of England, the Espicopal Church, and Methodists); it has absolutely no applicability to the actual protestant descedants from the Scottish Presbyterianian, Dutch and Swiss Reformed, French Reformed (Huguenots) and Lutheran churches.


Im not a very religious person so there is probably good explanations for these that i dont know.

Yes, likely.

I thought Luterism was a seperate religion than Protestism, like Calvinism and Knoxism

The Protestant, and Reformed are similar cooperatives on the Continent; established in different nations at the time (Lutherans pretty much in Germany);

Knoxism doesn't exist, John Knox extended the Swiss Reformation (Continental Reformation) into Scottland; against both Catholic and Anglican forces. Knox established "Presbyterianism" in Scottland; though while the name is different from the Dutch and Swiss reformed churches; it is identical and structure (indeed, both have, and still cooperate internationally as a single unit in the WARC [World Alliance of Reformed Churches])... While the "Reformation" is a very general umbrela term in history; it describes at least three disconnected occurances; the first being Luther's actions in Wittenburg, Calvin's in Geneva, and Zwingli in Zurich.

Lutheranism descended from Luther's established church; and are the source of the term "Protestant" (unique from Reformed)...

Zwingli and Calvin established the "Reformed Churches" which extended through Switzerland, Denmark and the Neatherland's as the Reformed Church; the Huguenots (of France) extended Calvin's Reformed Church into France; and John Knox carried the Reformed Church into Scottland (where it is known as Presbyterianism; though differs only in name from the Continental Reformed Churches). All of these churches still cooperate internationally under the WARC [World Alliance of Reformed Churches]... All possessing the same identical core doctrines and governmental form [Presbyterianism].

The birth of the Church of England, and Anglicanism; has little, doctrinally, to do with the Reformation in the Continent; and merely shows a transfer in power; and not a question and restoration of doctrine.