NationStates Jolt Archive

I was wondering how man Pro-lifers are also for or against capital punishment?

I was wondering how man Pro-lifers are also for or against capital punishment?
For capital punishment. Against the murder of an innocent child.

I was wondering how man Pro-lifers are also for or against capital punishment?



Against, but, if you are trying to catch us in a seeming contradiction like a lot of people who ask this question are, remember that the child is not a rapist/murderer.

For capital punishment. Against the murder of an innocent child.

How ironic, I'm pro-choice but against Capital Punishment.

For capital punishment. Against the murder of an innocent child.
But didn't that child commit the original sin therefore not innocent? child != embryo. What do you think about all the innocent children being murderd and born deformed everyday in Iraq thanks to DU ammunition? Are you crying out on their behalf?

I am pro-abortion and pro death penalty. I don't care about the death of a fetus and I don't care about the death of a murderer.

I would make the prediction that, if abortion is made illegal, we may see a very noticeable rise in the crime rate and capital punishment.

Im Pro-choice and against Capital Punishment....comparing the two or trying to put them in the same room doesnt work.

But didn't that child commit the original sin therefore not innocent? child != embryo. What do you think about all the innocent children being murderd and born deformed everyday in Iraq thanks to DU ammunition? Are you crying out on their behalf?



Unless the baby ate part of the DU shell (which would kill it anyway) there is no way it will get enough radiation from the thing to have any noticeable effects on it.

Against, but, if you are trying to catch us in a seeming contradiction like a lot of people who ask this question are, remember that the child is not a rapist/murderer.
Neither are these kids (http://www.web-light.nl/VISIE/extremedeformities.html). Why are they being killed? Oh yeah, because they were hiding WMDs they didn't have.

DISCLAIMER: EXTREME PIC WARNING

Unless the baby ate part of the DU shell (which would kill it anyway) there is no way it will get enough radiation from the thing to have any noticeable effects on it.
look at what I just posted

Against, but, if you are trying to catch us in a seeming contradiction like a lot of people who ask this question are, remember that the child is not a rapist/murderer.


there's the easy answer to the question.

here's a potentially tougher question:

how many pro-lifers eat meat (aka innocent dead animal babies)?

can you honestly claim a little clump of cells is more alive than a cow?

Neither are these kids (http://www.web-light.nl/VISIE/extremedeformities.html). Why are they being killed? Oh yeah, because they were hiding WMDs they didn't have.

DISCLAIMER: EXTREME PIC WARNING



Umm....I recognize that Spinal Bifidia picture out of one of my mom's 1970's nursing textbooks...that exact same picture. Good luck getting me to believe the rest of the things on that page were from the Gulf War -.-

there's the easy answer to the question.

here's a potentially tougher question:

how many pro-lifers eat meat (aka innocent dead animal babies)?

can you honestly claim a little clump of cells is more alive than a cow?



A soul, my good dear, a soul.

Neither are these kids (http://www.web-light.nl/VISIE/extremedeformities.html). Why are they being killed? Oh yeah, because they were hiding WMDs they didn't have.

DISCLAIMER: EXTREME PIC WARNING

I am really sick of deformed children/fetus pictures. Someone showed some to me arguing against abortion and it really didn't help anyone.

Also, that is completely off-topic as well. The subject here is the connection between abortion and the death penalty, and whether there is any inconsistencies with those views.

If you want to discuss children that are deformed because of weapons, start your own thread.

Umm....I recognize that Spinal Bifidia picture out of one of my mom's 1970's nursing textbooks...that exact same picture. Good luck getting me to believe the rest of the things on that page were from the Gulf War -.-


things? fetuses are people, but deformed babies are things?

A soul, my good dear, a soul.

Nuns don't eat meat because they won't eat anything with a soul.

Except oysters, apparently they don't have a soul.

A soul, my good dear, a soul.

so you have absolutely NO secular argument? because i don't really believe in souls. why should your religion govern my life?

things? fetuses are people, but deformed babies are things?

I think he means pictures. Pictures are things.

A soul, my good dear, a soul.

The axis of this issue. The reliance on the supernatural for a meaning to life. A person is a person because they were divinely created as a person.

things? fetuses are people, but deformed babies are things?



By things, I was referring to photos.

so you have absolutely NO secular argument? because i don't really believe in souls. why should your religion govern my life?



And why should I let you commit murder?

And why should I let you commit murder?

I'll commit murder if I want to, thank you very much.

Whatever I do, I would like to say it was MY decision, whether I end up killing a 'baby' or not.

But thank you for your concern. If I do go to hell, it's not your fault.

And why should I let you commit murder?

1. you have failed to prove secularly that abortion is murder

2. you have failed to prove secularly that meat is not murder

And why should I let you commit murder?
But I'll go out of business if you do!

Seriously, a baby is like a parasite, it lives off of you until it is developed enough to leave the womb.

Nuns don't eat meat because they won't eat anything with a soul.

Except oysters, apparently they don't have a soul.



Yes, the Bible makes specific reference to their practices:


1 Timothy 4:1-5 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Umm....I recognize that Spinal Bifidia picture out of one of my mom's 1970's nursing textbooks...that exact same picture. Good luck getting me to believe the rest of the things on that page were from the Gulf War -.-
How the fuck do you expect me to believe that? I've seen some of those pictures before too. From other sources documenting DU ammunition effects! I'd rather trust multiple books and websites versus some random person on the Internet. If you show me the book and the picture, I may believe you.

i'm moderately pro-choice, but i really don't like the parasite argument.

1. it puts blame on the fetus. you make it sound like this evil little wormy thing cralled up your **** and is leeching off of you. it didn't choose to be conceived, YOU chose to have sex.

2. it just makes you sound evil. it makes us all look really, really bad. which wouldn't matter much, except that it's counterproductive in swinging votes. there's a difference between saying "I HATE BABIES AND WANT TO KILL THEM ALL*" and saying "a woman should have the right to make her own decisions."

*i know a conservative who has taken that exact stance

1. you have failed to prove secularly that abortion is murder

2. you have failed to prove secularly that meat is not murder



I'm sure we all agree that consumption of meat is not murder :rolleyes:

How the fuck do you expect me to believe that? I've seen some of those pictures before too. From other sources documenting DU ammunition effects! I'd rather trust multiple books and websites versus some random person on the Internet. If you show me the book and the picture, I may believe you.



If she still has the book, then I will!

I'm sure we all agree that consumption of meat is not murder :rolleyes:

prove it.

How about you prove within the confines of your religion that females are worth keeping alive

Women are fond of self-indulgence (Isaiah 32:9-11). They are silly and easily led into error (2 Timothy 3:6). They are subtle and deceitful (Proverbs 7:10; Ecclesiastes 7:26). They are zealous in promoting superstition and idolatry (Jeremiah 7:18; Ezekiel 13:17, 23). And they are active in instigating to iniquity (Numbers 31:15-16; 1 Kings 21:25; Nehemiah 13:26).

I mean let's face it if we are going to machinate society in a patriarchal and intrinsically oppressive way, it might as well be the christian way...

Realistically, women are just EVIL so as long as they are only aborting female foetus a la CHINA, then I'm sure God wouldn't care!

David

For capital punishment. Against the murder of an innocent child.

I'm against capital punishment and against the murder of an innocent child. As for an undeveloped fetus, I must admit I'm somewhat ambivalent.

prove it.


mur·der Pronunciation Key (mûrdr)
n.

1. The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

(emphasis mine)

Unless it's human meat we're talking about, meat is not murder.

i'm moderately pro-choice, but i really don't like the parasite argument.

1. it puts blame on the fetus. you make it sound like this evil little wormy thing cralled up your **** and is leeching off of you. it didn't choose to be conceived, YOU chose to have sex.

2. it just makes you sound evil. it makes us all look really, really bad. which wouldn't matter much, except that it's counterproductive in swinging votes. there's a difference between saying "I HATE BABIES AND WANT TO KILL THEM ALL*" and saying "a woman should have the right to make her own decisions."

*i know a conservative who has taken that exact stance
Yes, but it is true. It has all the characteristics of one, even though it was voluntray I suppose. I like the sound of the first argument, but since the latter works best I'll take it.

(emphasis mine)

Unless it's human meat we're talking about, meat is not murder.


good job. killing animals is ok. so why isn't killing an unconscious little clump of cells?

good job. killing animals is ok. so why isn't killing an unconscious little clump of cells?

Because that unconscious little clump of cells has the potential to grow into a sentient human being?

Because that unconscious little clump of cells has the potential to grow into a sentient human being?
So, it has the potential? Zippidy do-da.

So, it has the potential? Zippidy do-da.
Yes. That is enough to keep that poor thing alive.

Yes. That is enough to keep that poor thing alive.
Because it has potential?

Yes. That is enough to keep that poor thing alive.

I have the potential to be a rock star. Will I be a rockstar? Probably not.
I have the potential to be a lawyer. Will I be a lawyer? I want to be a lawyer, but will I be a GOOD lawyer? Will I get into a good law school? Will I fail IB?

So many complications..

Because it has potential?
Yes!!! That's what growing is about! Potential. That's what education is about! Potential. Just because it's a clump of cells today doesn't mean it won't be a great human tomorrow. Just because you aren't married today doesn't mean you can't be married tomorrow. POTENTIAL.

I have the potential to be a rock star. Will I be a rockstar? Probably not.
I have the potential to be a lawyer. Will I be a lawyer? I want to be a lawyer, but will I be a GOOD lawyer? Will I get into a good law school? Will I fail IB?

So many complications..
Life is full of complications. You sure have a lot of complications. Why don't you end your life here and now? Because you have the potential.

why does this debate keep coming up?

corpral punishment is for people who harm others, not for innocent babies

Yes!!! That's what growing is about! Potential. That's what education is about! Potential. Just because it's a clump of cells today doesn't mean it won't be a great human tomorrow. Just because you aren't married today doesn't mean you can't be married tomorrow. POTENTIAL.
How is that an argument against pro-choicers? It has the potential to become a million different things, put the ifs aside and talk about the facts.

well, you never know, cows may have the potential to evolve into intelligent, sentient beings, and may even create gold gyrocopters so we can fly to the moon and smoke marijuana with aliens. please don't kill them and interrupt their... oh, how do i say it... potential!

How is that an argument against pro-choicers? It has the potential to become a million different things, put the ifs aside and talk about the facts.

The fact: this thing will one day grow into a human. Killing it = as much as killing a human.

The fact: this thing will one day grow into a human. Killing it = as much as killing a human.
One day grow into a human. It is not human yet, by your statement, so therefore it is not muder, which is the killing of a human.

you were a fetus once, you all owe your existance to your parents responsibility. How would you feel if you were aborted...oh, thats right, you wouldn't. Liberals just justify it as not a person, thats all they do. What if it was you?

Life is full of complications. You sure have a lot of complications. Why don't you end your life here and now? Because you have the potential.

I was just trying to point out that saying the baby has 'potential' isn't a great argument.

Yes, a fetus has the potential to be a healthy baby, and to grow up and live a happy life. Complications do occur, and just because that fetus has potential doesn't mean that something else can't happen.

well, you never know, cows may have the potential to evolve into intelligent, sentient beings, and may even create gold gyrocopters so we can fly to the moon and smoke marijuana with aliens. please don't kill them and interrupt their... oh, how do i say it... potential!
heres the thing, YOU KILL BABIES BECAUSE THEIR MOTHER IS RETARDED AND DOESNT TAKE THE MORNING AFTER PILL, wow hey murdering, and yet liberals are opposed to capital punishment, the debate SHOULD be how can you support abortions but not capital punishment or the war, if the war is how you liberals put it as "unnecessary killing of americans" well yeah so is abortion, but killing is right up your liberals alley, no dont you will twist this against me and whine as you liberals so typically do.

you were a fetus once, you all owe your existance to your parents responsibility. How would you feel if you were aborted...oh, thats right, you wouldn't. Liberals just justify it as not a person, thats all they do. What if it was you?
I'm not a liberal, I'm a libertarian. Dont narrow your worldview to two groups of people.

One day grow into a human. It is not human yet, by your statement, so therefore it is not muder, which is the killing of a human.

It's an earlier form of a human being. Strictly speaking humans are just grown and born feti, and feti are undeveloped and unborn humans. Mur.der.

Unless the baby ate part of the DU shell (which would kill it anyway) there is no way it will get enough radiation from the thing to have any noticeable effects on it.
That's not what WHO has shown...

EDIT: Sorry, not WHO. Leading radiation scientists disagree with you though.

I was just trying to point out that saying the baby has 'potential' isn't a great argument.

Yes, a fetus has the potential to be a healthy baby, and to grow up and live a happy life. Complications do occur, and just because that fetus has potential doesn't mean that something else can't happen.

If we were supposed to guarantee that every baby has to be perfect at birth and during growth, then all babies would be aborted - and the human race becomes extinct.

Why do we get to enjoy the fruits of life while others have to lose the chance just because their parents were irresponsible idiots?

I'm not a liberal, I'm a libertarian. Dont narrow your worldview to two groups of people.
dont be so idealistic, there are two types of people in the world, Pro-choice and pro-life, i wont list all possible political affiliations, itd take years.

heres the thing, YOU KILL BABIES BECAUSE THEIR MOTHER IS RETARDED AND DOESNT TAKE THE MORNING AFTER PILL, wow hey murdering, and yet liberals are opposed to capital punishment, the debate SHOULD be how can you support abortions but not capital punishment or the war, if the war is how you liberals put it as "unnecessary killing of americans" well yeah so is abortion, but killing is right up your liberals ally, no dont you will twist this against me and whine as you liberals so typically do.

Technically a Morning After Pill would be murder then, wouldn't it? If the egg is fertilised and you flush that egg out of your system, THATS MURDER.

I'm not a liberal, I'm a libertarian. Take THAT. Hah.

heres the thing, YOU KILL BABIES BECAUSE THEIR MOTHER IS RETARDED AND DOESNT TAKE THE MORNING AFTER PILL, wow hey murdering, and yet liberals are opposed to capital punishment, the debate SHOULD be how can you support abortions but not capital punishment or the war, if the war is how you liberals put it as "unnecessary killing of americans" well yeah so is abortion, but killing is right up your liberals alley, no dont you will twist this against me and whine as you liberals so typically do.

please stop killing the cows, i need them to evolve so they can build my gold gyrocopter and fly me to the moon. also, for your information, i'm not a liberal. i am a member of the first international alien peace party, and all i want to do are drugs and fly around the galaxy riding on my stardust-powered gold gyrocopter.

I'm sorry but this thread is inane. People have varying views on different subjects.... If you are pro choice but against capital punishment this does not make you a hypocrite and vice versa. It simply means people have differing opinions on a plethora of topics.

Now if one was for capital punishment for all murderers/rapist and then changed their support for capital punishment after becoming a muderer/rapist, that person would be a hypocrite.

Technically a Morning After Pill would be murder then, wouldn't it? If the egg is fertilised and you flush that egg out of your system, THATS MURDER.

I'm not a liberal, I'm a libertarian. Take THAT. Hah.

So the bottom line should be: if you want to have sex and not have to deal with the problems afterwards, use contraceptives. Problem solved.

dont be so idealistic, there are two types of people in the world, Pro-choice and pro-life, i wont list all possible political affiliations, itd take years.
Not even that really. There are quite obviously varying degrees of pro-choice-ness and that comes from different politices, such as liberal vs libertarian vs whatever else.

Technically a Morning After Pill would be murder then, wouldn't it? If the egg is fertilised and you flush that egg out of your system, THATS MURDER.


Technically no, if taken quickly, the morning after pill will prevent conception . (sperm swim very slowly)

I'm for eating meat and devided on the whole abortian thing. It's okay to get rid of a clump of cells, but once it goes from cells to simplay unborn baby, it's basicly murder. I heard about pro-choicers trying to claim that babies are not people. Babies! The crying ones outside of the womb! Sick, sick people. I feel that abortian is okay as long as it happens in the first 5-6 months. After that, sorry. You had a choice whether to have sex or not. Plus, you had half a year to get rid of it. Once it's too late, it's too late. The only thing making abortian after that okay is a life or death situation. I don't even know where the right to have abortions came from. Wow. What next? We already had people ruining the environment by being paid to put wolves on the endangered species list. They recovered enough to become threatened. We had advocates for slavery and segregation. Where did the right to hurt blacks come from? The right to fill medicines with poisons? Alcohol is not good for the brain. A little helps your heart, but too much really attacks your brain in force. We had a ban on alcohol. We have the right to drink it. The tobacco companies have the right to get people to ruin their health through subliminal messages and media brai washing. I don't mean through special magical beams. I mean through subliminal messages and intence peer pressure campaigns. No wonder why Americans are out of shape. Many of them can't lift a leg without wheezing and hacking to death, I'm a bit worried about liberal ideas and conservative ideals. Too many people believe in something just because a political party tells them to. That's why I'm independant. I make up my own mind instead of someone else doing it for me.

Let me eat what is part of the traditional human diet. I'm an omnivore. Give me brocolli and meat. I also don't advocate killing anyone, unless it was under extreme circumstances.

So the bottom line should be: if you want to have sex and not have to deal with the problems afterwards, use contraceptives. Problem solved.

Contraceptives are good. But what if something goes wrong?

why does this debate keep coming up?

corpral punishment is for people who harm others, not for innocent babies
Ummm..corporal punishment is like, spankings.

Contraceptives are good. But what if something goes wrong?
Stop having so much sex. :p

Anyone ever see the silent scream

I dont have a link but if you google it it may open some of your eyes

Ummm..corporal punishment is like, spankings.

Stop thinking dirty!

Stop having so much sex. :p

Ahahaha. :D

Dragon Bays a smart dude...or lady

Ahahaha. :D
yeah, really. human beings controlling themselves? WHAT!?!? NO!!!!!!!

Anyone ever see the silent scream

I dont have a link but if you google it it may open some of your eyes
Squirrels can scream in a pitch so high that we can not even hear it!

The fact: this thing will one day grow into a human. Killing it = as much as killing a human.
Not if it fails to implant, not if it fails to leave the fallopian tubes, and not if it spontaneously terminates--and that happens a hell of a lot of the time, many times with the female not even realizing that she was pregnant to begin with.

Dragon Bays a smart dude...or lady

Dude!

Adult!

18 Today! :D

Not if it fails to implant, not if it fails to leave the fallopian tubes, and not if it spontaneously terminates--and that happens a hell of a lot of the time, many times with the female not even realizing that she was pregnant to begin with.
Granted. But for every fetus that comes into being, shouldn't it be given the chance to grow?

It seems the attidude of prio-choice people is:

THE CONTRACEPTIVES WILL ALWAYS GO WRONG (your proof?)
or
THE BABY WILL ALWAYS BE DEFORMED (see above)
or
THE BABY WILL GROW UP INTO A SERIAL KILLER (what were the odds, again?)

Perhaps:
THE CONTRACEPTIVES WILL PROBABLY WORK (this holds true)
or
THE BABY PROBABLY WON'T BE DEFORMED (so you have something against reatrds, eh?!)
or
THE BABY PROBABLY WILL GROW UP INTO A UPSTANDING CITIZEN (unless you teach them to be a criminal)



Also:

THAT SERIAL RAPIST/MURDERER CAN BE REDEEMED IF HE IS REHABILITATED PROPERLY (properly and expensivly)
and
BUT THE BABY IS INCONVIENTIENT (this just shows how lazy and selfish you are)

The only reason for abortion is rape. And the the only reason for capital punishment is also rape (+ murder.)


If you disagree, you are a truly sick bastard. I'm not saying that you can't disagree, I'm not saying I don't want to hear your opinion, I'm just asking how someone can justify killing a small child but be against the killing of someone who stole the lives of multiple humans. Unless you're a Satanist, that is. They are the only people who could really believe that.

yeah, really. human beings controlling themselves? WHAT!?!? NO!!!!!!!

I don't understand what you're saying.

I laugh, because I find something funny. Not because it's so creepily impossible. Creepily impossible would invoke a 'pfft, yeah right.

Because that unconscious little clump of cells has the potential to grow into a sentient human being?

each and every sperm cell swimming around in your balls has the potential to become a sentient human being. and at the rate clone technology is advancing, soon EVERY CELL IN YOUR BODY WILL BE A POTENTIAL HUMAN BEING.

brushing off a flake of dried skin from your arm is murder!

congrats Dragon Bay

Silent scream is an in-utero shot of a third trimester abortion
if you didnt know how they do it, they cut off the arms, legs and then spinal cord, finally killing the child, then suck it out with a hose.

Dont watch it without a sick bag near by, its not for the faint of heart

Stop thinking dirty!
Can't help myself. I'm a liberal, you know, one of those orgiastic, baby murdering, Kumbaya-singing potheads who hate America.

THAT SERIAL RAPIST/MURDERER CAN BE REDEEMED IF HE IS REHABILITATED PROPERLY (properly and expensivly)
...

And the the only reason for capital punishment is also rape (+ murder.)


what?

each and every sperm cell swimming around in your balls has the potential to become a sentient human being. and at the rate clone technology is advancing, soon EVERY CELL IN YOUR BODY WILL BE A POTENTIAL HUMAN BEING.

brushing off a flake of dried skin from your arm is murder!
Thats just ignorant. A zygote will grow into a human on its own naturally, a skin cell or single sperm won't

each and every sperm cell swimming around in your balls has the potential to become a sentient human being. and at the rate clone technology is advancing, soon EVERY CELL IN YOUR BODY WILL BE A POTENTIAL HUMAN BEING.

brushing off a flake of dried skin from your arm is murder!

But the flake of dried skin will not actively grow into a new human being. A fertilised egg, embryo and fetus will. It's a natural process.

congrats Dragon Bay

Silent scream is an in-utero shot of a third trimester abortion
if you didnt know how they do it, they cut off the arms, legs and then spinal cord, finally killing the child, then suck it out with a hose.

Dont watch it without a sick bag near by, its not for the faint of heart

Oh no. I know what kind of movies to watch and not watch by their opening music. :p

Dragons Bay, Tyrnnical Fascists, can I marry you both.

I finally come across someone who isn't a Satanist...

I was wondering how man Pro-lifers are also for or against capital punishment?

Against abortion except in cases of rape. Otherwise, there was a choice - it was made when you decided to have sex.

For capital punishment. Actually think it isn't done automatically for enough offenses. And also against all this belly-aching about cruel and unusual punishment. Only way they should face death is if beyond a shadow of a doubt. And if guilty, they deserve to be put down in an even more inhumane way than they treated their victim(s). Also think they need to lower the age limit for when one can be sentenced to death for their crimes and lengthen the statute of limitations on crimes that warrent it. Sick of my taxes paying to support society's piranha. Premeditated murder, rape, child molestation, all should be punished with the death penalty.

clearly sex is unnatural, and thus becoming a zygote is completely abnormal for a sperm cell. miscarriages are also unnatural, of course.

i was attacking the "potential" argument, and now you've reverted to the "probability" argument. no fair.

Dragons Bay, Tyrnnical Fascists, can I marry you both.

I finally come across someone who isn't a Satanist...
not if youre a dude. im not big into polygamy either, so youd have to pick.

each and every sperm cell swimming around in your balls has the potential to become a sentient human being. and at the rate clone technology is advancing, soon EVERY CELL IN YOUR BODY WILL BE A POTENTIAL HUMAN BEING.

brushing off a flake of dried skin from your arm is murder!
YOU MAY BE THE SINGLE DUMBEST PERSON TO EVER LIVE, and "clone technology" has been banned, your not allowed to clone people, and the only cells that can change are stem cells, i mean hey i have dead skin cell on my arm, that doesnt mean ill grow a new son, seriously man you shouldn't ever post again...in fact just never talk again, that would be great.

It seems the attidude of prio-choice people is:

THE CONTRACEPTIVES WILL ALWAYS GO WRONG (your proof?)
or
THE BABY WILL ALWAYS BE DEFORMED (see above)
or
THE BABY WILL GROW UP INTO A SERIAL KILLER (what were the odds, again?)


No one said that, they merely said there was a CHANCE. So by saying that the baby will grow up to be perfect isn't really true.

Perhaps:
THE CONTRACEPTIVES WILL PROBABLY WORK (this holds true)[/QUOTE

Contraceptives do work, most of the time. MOST meaning there are times when it won't. That's when we have 'accidents.' Sometimes people don't have the means to take care of these babies.

[QUOTE]or
THE BABY PROBABLY WON'T BE DEFORMED (so you have something against reatrds, eh?!)[Quote]

There is always a chance, that's what we said. What if your baby is deformed, say, paralyised from the shoulders down and doctors tell you the baby probably won't live past 1 year. Do you want that baby to suffer? Plus, think of the medical bills..

YES the chance is small, but nethertheless there is still a chance, and you muct account for those chances. The What ifs.

[QUOTE]or
THE BABY PROBABLY WILL GROW UP INTO A UPSTANDING CITIZEN (unless you teach them to be a criminal)

I don't think people abort their babies because their child might turn into a criminal. More like, because the environment that you'll have to raise a child is not ideal, or that you have no money to feed yourself let alone a baby.


Also:

THAT SERIAL RAPIST/MURDERER CAN BE REDEEMED IF HE IS REHABILITATED PROPERLY (properly and expensivly)

Not always. But I don't see your point there.

and
BUT THE BABY IS INCONVIENTIENT (this just shows how lazy and selfish you are)

Sadly, some people think that way, but theirs not much we can do about it. But you must realise that if a 17 year old girl were to have a baby and keep it, her chances of getting a good education are close to nil, therefore her chance of getting a good job is close to nil. Yes, you'll be ruinning a childs 'potential' but if not, you could be ruinning the mothers.

The only reason for abortion is rape. And the the only reason for capital punishment is also rape (+ murder.)


If you disagree, you are a truly sick bastard. I'm not saying that you can't disagree, I'm not saying I don't want to hear your opinion, I'm just asking how someone can justify killing a small child but be against the killing of someone who stole the lives of multiple humans. Unless you're a Satanist, that is. They are the only people who could really believe that.

I guess I'm a sick bastard AND I worship the Devil.

Fun.

Not if it fails to implant, not if it fails to leave the fallopian tubes, and not if it spontaneously terminates--and that happens a hell of a lot of the time, many times with the female not even realizing that she was pregnant to begin with.

Miscarriages also known as a spontaneous abortions are not the same as having a voluntary procedure such as an elective abortion. So barring the natural occurrence of a spontaneous abortion or ectopic pregnancy or even let us say a molar pregnancy.. that little mass of cells will grow into a human being. On the other hand having an elective procedure to abort the natural process will stop that little mass of cells from ever achieiving its potential.

being alive in a not ideal environment is better than being killed

clearly sex is unnatural, and thus becoming a zygote is completely abnormal for a sperm cell. miscarriages are also unnatural, of course.

i was attacking the "potential" argument, and now you've reverted to the "probability" argument. no fair.
Well, they've got to switch gears, because you're using logic, and that's just not fair.

wow
liberals raise the arguement

how can you support capital punishment, and yet not support abortion, when capital punishment is for people who have done somthing to harm another, last time i checked a baby has not, heres a better question how can you support abortions but not capital punishment.

Can't help myself. I'm a liberal, you know, one of those orgiastic, baby murdering, Kumbaya-singing potheads who hate America.

Hey, ME TOO!!

We're like sisters, but not.

i concurr with conservatopolis. Furthermore, how can you support abortion and not support hunting
(we are at the top of the food chain for a reason and since we pretty much eliminated most other predators,isnt it our duty to take on our role as a hunter?)

But I digress, merely thinkin aloud...in type

how could you possibly say people should get abortions because the situation is not ideal for a child, TOUGH LUCK if you arent responsible, either using protection or the morning after pill, then its your fault, if need be put your child up for adoption, because obviously you shouldnt be a parent if you aren't responsible, i think this is simply a case of people looking for an easy way out, so liberals grow up. im so freakin sick of people say conservatives dont have hearts because they hunt animals, yet liberals have to be without hearts because they kill babies.

Miscarriages also known as a spontaneous abortions are not the same as having a voluntary procedure such as an elective abortion. So barring the natural occurrence of a spontaneous abortion or ectopic pregnancy or even let us say a molar pregnancy.. that little mass of cells will grow into a human being. On the other hand having an elective procedure to abort the natural process will stop that little mass of cells from ever achieiving its potential.My point is that at the level we're talking about, the human body often--not rarely, often--terminates the pregnancy. It can hardly be called either alive or human at that stage. So whether the body terminates the pregnancy--and by the way, it is the pregnancy, not the fetus that is terminated or aborted--or whether the female decides to do it, there's really little difference in my book.

None of which matters to me--the underlying issue of a right to privacy and a right to determine one's own medical choices are far more important to me that whether or not some people get their noses out of joint about what someone else does with her pregnancy.

It's really simple--don't believe in abortion? Don't have one. The rest of it isn't your business.

i concurr with conservatopolis. Furthermore, how can you support abortion and not support hunting
(we are at the top of the food chain for a reason and since we pretty much eliminated most other predators,isnt it our duty to take on our role as a hunter?)

But I digress, merely thinkin aloud...in type

way to use my question against yourself after dodging it.

how can you support hunting but not support abortion?

barring some superstitious belief that humans are inherently better than animals, and all animals are equal.

Although i suppose since we get our political beliefs from our parents, an aborted baby would never reach maturity...Liberals are going to push themselves to extinction. That must be why we control the White House, Senate, and House of Representatives. So if you wont do it for the baby, at least do it so the debate can continue.

how can you support hunting but not support abortion?

they're afraid of the future fully-evolved deer and such building far superior space-faring stardust-powered gold gyrocopters, obviously. need to nip it in the bud!!

way to use my question against yourself after dodging it.

how can you support hunting but not support abortion?

barring some superstitious belief that humans are inherently better than animals, and all animals are equal.
AHA you are an idiot, ok i believe in hunting for food, so unless you're planning on eating a fetus "which is illegal" then there is NO Reason you liberals should support abortions

did i already mention my conservative friend who's not just pro-choice, but pro-abortion, because he hates children?

your political generalizations are ignorant and pointless.

how can you support hunting but not support abortion?

barring some superstitious belief that humans are inherently better than animals, and all animals are equal.
yes, how can you murder babies but not take our role as a predator( a role assigned by nature) either theyre equal or were better, either way your a hypocrite.

did i already mention my conservative friend who's not just pro-choice, but pro-abortion, because he hates children?

your political generalizations are ignorant and pointless.
thats only 1 out of how many in the world? Take a bigger sampling next time

My point is that at the level we're talking about, the human body often--not rarely, often--terminates the pregnancy. It can hardly be called either alive or human at that stage. So whether the body terminates the pregnancy--and by the way, it is the pregnancy, not the fetus that is terminated or aborted--or whether the female decides to do it, there's really little difference in my book.

None of which matters to me--the underlying issue of a right to privacy and a right to determine one's own medical choices are far more important to me that whether or not some people get their noses out of joint about what someone else does with her pregnancy.

It's really simple--don't believe in abortion? Don't have one. The rest of it isn't your business.


people have heart attacks, does that mean i can shoot people in the heart? no this arguement is irrelevent

did i already mention my conservative friend who's not just pro-choice, but pro-abortion, because he hates children?

your political generalizations are ignorant and pointless.

cheers to that. let's cleanse the earth within a generation or two. DOWN WITH PROCREATION!

AHA you are an idiot, ok i believe in hunting for food, so unless you're planning on eating a fetus "which is illegal" then there is NO Reason you liberals should support abortions

http://uproar.fortunecity.com/picture/613/fetusyum.htm

my point though, was that why defend primitive innocent lives if you aren't going to defend all of them?

plus, when the body terminates the pregnancy, its natural and because there was either something wrong with the baby or it would be a risk to the mother. Who are you to play god?

My point is that at the level we're talking about, the human body often--not rarely, often--terminates the pregnancy. It can hardly be called either alive or human at that stage. So whether the body terminates the pregnancy--and by the way, it is the pregnancy, not the fetus that is terminated or aborted--or whether the female decides to do it, there's really little difference in my book.

None of which matters to me--the underlying issue of a right to privacy and a right to determine one's own medical choices are far more important to me that whether or not some people get their noses out of joint about what someone else does with her pregnancy.

It's really simple--don't believe in abortion? Don't have one. The rest of it isn't your business.

Your kidding right. Are you saying people who have had an abortion are the only ones that have a right to an opinion? If you think anything is that simple you in for a rude awakening. People are allowed to their opinions. I don't want my tax money going for unnecessary abortions. If it is truly medically warranted I have no problem with it, if not... I damn well have a right to my opinion and it is my business. Just as much as you have a right to yours.

http://uproar.fortunecity.com/picture/613/fetusyum.htm

my point though, was that why defend primitive innocent lives if you aren't going to defend all of them?
answer your own question why defend animals if your not willing to defend babies??

people have heart attacks, does that mean i can shoot people in the heart? no this arguement is irrelevent
I'll tell you what--if an 8-week old clump of cells has a heart attack, you can shoot it in the heart. :rolleyes:

There is a significant difference between a first-trimester mass and a grown human being. It's not my fault that you can't tell the difference between the two of them.

What am I doing here? I'm trying to argue logically with a person who can't tell the difference between corporal and capital punishment. :rolleyes:

I'll tell you what--if an 8-week old clump of cells has a heart attack, you can shoot it in the heart. :rolleyes:

There is a significant difference between a first-trimester mass and a grown human being. It's not my fault that you can't tell the difference between the two of them.

What am I doing here? I'm trying to argue logically with a person who can't tell the difference between corporal and capital punishment. :rolleyes:
there is no difference, except one has matured and the other is maturing, the clump of cells as you put it is a human being it is from the moment the sperm combines with the egg, why dont you go to health class kid and let the big boys (and girls) talk


i love the part where you say you're trying to argue logically where as your whole argument is illogical

Your kidding right. Are you saying people who have had an abortion are the only ones that have a right to an opinion? If you think anything is that simple you in for a rude awakening. People are allowed to their opinions. I don't want my tax money going for unnecessary abortions. If it is truly medically warranted I have no problem with it, if not... I damn well have a right to my opinion and it is my business. Just as much as you have a right to yours.
Where the hell are you getting that from? All I said was that my privacy--not my opinion, my privacy (and by extension, the personal privacy of every American)--is more important than someone else's opinion about the morality of abortion.

Look--if you don't like abortion, fine. Scream it from the rooftops. Decorate yourself with fetal-matter and roam the streets bellowing about it. That's your right. But the right to privacy trumps your attempt to outlaw the conduct, no matter how much you think it's crappy. Rights trump opinions--that's the way it works in this country. The attempt by the right-wing to outlaw abortion is the same as an attempt to silence your right to protest. I'd fight just as hard to allow you to protest as I'd fight to keep this right to privacy, because even if I disagree with your opinion, I'll fight for your right to have it and express it.

there is no difference, except one has matured and the other is maturing, the clump of cells as you put it is a human being it is from the moment the sperm combines with the egg, why dont you go to health class kid and let the big boys (and girls) talk
Dude--I'm a full-time teacher at a university. Don't even try to talk down to me when you obviously don't know even the rudiments of human biology.

I'll tell you what--if an 8-week old clump of cells has a heart attack, you can shoot it in the heart. :rolleyes:

There is a significant difference between a first-trimester mass and a grown human being. It's not my fault that you can't tell the difference between the two of them.

What am I doing here? I'm trying to argue logically with a person who can't tell the difference between corporal and capital punishment. :rolleyes:
the problem is that you dont use logic. humans grow in some facet all of their lives fetuses are people too, they have their own heartbeats, brains, nervous systems, theyre little people in every way. what dont you guys get about that?

Dude--I'm a full-time teacher at a university. Don't even try to talk down to me when you obviously don't know even the rudiments of human biology.
wow that speaks well for the education kids are getting if a teacher at a university refers to a zygot as a bunch of cells. no doubt you push your liberal views on your students rather than doing your job and presenting them with facts because then they would all be pro-life, oh and ill talk however i please, and i talk down to you because you are a moron.

Dude--I'm a full-time teacher at a university. Don't even try to talk down to me when you obviously don't know even the rudiments of human biology.
funny you didnt mention that before now...then honestly you should be better versed in the subject. maybe you need to go back to school, or look in a book more current than the Roe V Wade case. Plus if you have all the answers what are you doing arguing in a forum? yo, dude, yeh probly should talk like a PORFESSOR then, not a teacher, they don't have those at real colleges.

wow that speaks well for the education kids are getting if a teacher at a university (they're called professors by the way) refers to a zygot as a bunch of cells. no doubt you push your liberal views on your students rather than doing your job and presenting them with facts because then they would all be pro-life, oh and ill talk however if please, and i talk down to you because you are a moron.
No--Professor is one level of teacher at a university (and there are actually numerous levels of professorship), but thanks for proving that you don't know shit.

Where the hell are you getting that from? All I said was that my privacy--not my opinion, my privacy (and by extension, the personal privacy of every American)--is more important than someone else's opinion about the morality of abortion.

Look--if you don't like abortion, fine. Scream it from the rooftops. Decorate yourself with fetal-matter and roam the streets bellowing about it. That's your right. But the right to privacy trumps your attempt to outlaw the conduct, no matter how much you think it's crappy. Rights trump opinions--that's the way it works in this country. The attempt by the right-wing to outlaw abortion is the same as an attempt to silence your right to protest. I'd fight just as hard to allow you to protest as I'd fight to keep this right to privacy, because even if I disagree with your opinion, I'll fight for your right to have it and express it.

Well I am a big advocate for privacy rights but I don't believe abortion falls under it. I think that is why it is called pro choice not pro privacy. Now if someone was saying ... hey lets publish the names of everyone who has had an abortion I would fight it tooth and nail. That would be a breach of privacy. Fighting legislation or court precedent on a controvesial topic is not.

What child?

I dunno, but every biology textbook I have read has never referred to a fetus as a child. Just a fetus. Not a cub, a kitten, a puppy. Certainly not a baby.

I think it's a legitimate question.

What if the guy up for capital punishment didn't actually do anything?

What the Life of David Gale, those of you who are pro-capital-punishment. It's a real eye opener.

No--Professor is one level of teacher at a university (and there are actually numerous levels of professorship), but thanks for proving that you don't know shit.


ah yes, sorry i dont know much about teaching, but obviously neither do you with all these facts you are presenting, anyway it doesnt change the fact that as a teacher you dont present facts as teachers should but rather put your own twist on it so that abortion seems ok and it is really sad that two high schoolers can hold their own against a "teacher" nice language by the way i've seem to hit a nerve or evidence you're running out of steam, and instead of attacking the debate at hand you go off on tangents, proving you dont know anything.

By the way, im an astronaut and im in space right now. the views decent. you probably saw me remove the gap filler on live TV.

dont try to pull that when you dont sound like an adult (tip 1: try to refrain from obsceneties (thats cussin'))

By the way, im an astronaut and im in space right now. the views decent. you probably saw me remove the gap filler on live TV.

dont try to pull that when you dont sound like an adult (tip 1: try to refrain from obsceneties (thats cussin'))


and calling people "dude"

plus, when the body terminates the pregnancy, its natural and because there was either something wrong with the baby or it would be a risk to the mother. Who are you to play god?
Maybe if I type this slowly, you'll understand it better.

I'm not playing God here.

Am I getting an abortion? Am I even suggesting that an abortion is a good thing to get? Let me help you with the answer--it's no.

What I am doing, however, is saying that if a woman wishes to make that decision, then she has the right to do so, whether or not I agree with that decision.

People make decisions that I disagree with every fucking day. You think Bush would be President if I could (or if I even would) force people to do what I wanted? People have the right to make decisions about their own lives, and even if I disagree with those decisions, it's still their right to make them, and I'll defend that right with all I have.

By the way, im an astronaut and im in space right now. the views decent. you probably saw me remove the gap filler on live TV.

dont try to pull that when you dont sound like an adult (tip 1: try to refrain from obsceneties (thats cussin'))
hey, i'll pass by you on the way to the moon soon, whenever these god damned cows with all their potential finish evolving and build me that stardust-powered gold gyrocopter.

Maybe if I type this slowly, you'll understand it better.

I'm not playing God here.

Am I getting an abortion? Am I even suggesting that an abortion is a good thing to get? Let me help you with the answer--it's no.

What I am doing, however, is saying that if a woman wishes to make that decision, then she has the right to do so, whether or not I agree with that decision.

People make decisions that I disagree with every fucking day. You think Bush would be President if I could (or if I even would) force people to do what I wanted? People have the right to make decisions about their own lives, and even if I disagree with those decisions, it's still their right to make them, and I'll defend that right with all I have.

by your logic if i wanted to kill someone(because thats what an abortion is) i could? that doesnt make sense

Dude--I'm a full-time teacher at a university. Don't even try to talk down to me when you obviously don't know even the rudiments of human biology.

Well if we are pullling out education cards... I work in the medical field and have worked in NICU's, Labor and Deliveries, Special Care Nurseries, Post-Partum units ect.... I have also worked in the government and have been part of human research studies. Just because you are a university professor or just because I am in the medical field doesn't make anyone elses opinion non-valid. The opinion itself does that.

seriously i dont care if youre a teacher or not but if you would present info instead of opinions maybe id respect your viewpoint, but you are failing miserably to even peak my interest. bunch of cells-zygote, embryo, fetus try some scientific terms

thank you corageous

gotta give him credit for rudiments, kinda good verbosity, but the whole "you dont know shit" thing killed it for me

also, you dont have to talk down to me because it so happens that i know quite a good deal about politics and seem to have held my own againsat you so far ( i daresay you might me on the losing end)

alas the nazz has not responded

by your logic if i wanted to kill someone(because thats what an abortion is) i could? that doesnt make sense
why not? everyone's going to die, let's jump the gun and USE IT TOO.

Maybe if I type this slowly, you'll understand it better.

I'm not playing God here.

Am I getting an abortion? Am I even suggesting that an abortion is a good thing to get? Let me help you with the answer--it's no.

What I am doing, however, is saying that if a woman wishes to make that decision, then she has the right to do so, whether or not I agree with that decision.

People make decisions that I disagree with every fucking day. You think Bush would be President if I could (or if I even would) force people to do what I wanted? People have the right to make decisions about their own lives, and even if I disagree with those decisions, it's still their right to make them, and I'll defend that right with all I have.

Don't totally agree with you, but I applaud you anyway :D

Well I am a big advocate for privacy rights but I don't believe abortion falls under it. I think that is why it is called pro choice not pro privacy. Now if someone was saying ... hey lets publish the names of everyone who has had an abortion I would fight it tooth and nail. That would be a breach of privacy. Fighting legislation or court precedent on a controvesial topic is not.
It's a privacy issue because it's related to the ability of a woman to make medical choices about her body. If you're a man, and someone told you that if you wanted to have sex, you absolutely could not use a condom, how would you feel? You'd probably feel like it's none of their damn business, and you'd be right.

Well, a few years before Roe v Wade was decided, there was another case that involved contraception, called Griswold v. Connecticut, which is the heart of the right to privacy. Connecticut law made it illegal to provide contraceptives to married couples. What the court found was that Americans had a right to privacy, based on zones of privacy found throughout the Bill of Rights and bolstered particularly by the Ninth and Fourteenth Amendments.

The legality of a woman to have an abortion is merely an extension of that right, but even so, when the Court decided Roe, it left some wiggle room. They said that for the first trimester, the state has no compelling interest in invading a woman's privacy, but that it can regulate abortions in the last two trimesters, providing that there are safeguards for the woman's health and life. And every case since then has pretty much fallen along those lines. But it's always based on the woman's right to make a private decision about her health and procreative choices.

by your logic if i wanted to kill someone(because thats what an abortion is) i could? that doesnt make sense
You're right that it doesn't make sense--because having an abortion is, according to the laws of this country, not killing someone. It is a legal medical procedure, the same as removing an inflamed appendix--in the eyes of the law.

the point is simple, its not nazz's life to take. Hes full within his rights to kill himself, just dont drag the innocent into it...dont think he's really a teacher either(big fibber!)...dunno why i assumed he was a guy but i guess thats a credit to women

You're right that it doesn't make sense--because having an abortion is, according to the laws of this country, not killing someone. It is a legal medical procedure, the same as removing an inflamed appendix--in the eyes of the law.
were not arguing legality, were arguing ethics. i dont care if its legal that doesn't mean its ethical. the court case is outdated and face it, pretty soon we conservatives will have enough justices on the Supreme Court to change that abomination of a law

the point is simple, its not nazz's life to take. Hes full within his rights to kill himself, just dont drag the innocent into it...dont think he's really a teacher either(big fibber!)...dunno why i assumed he was a guy but i guess thats a credit to women
Believe what you will, simple child. I can't stop you. There are plenty of people on this board who know who I am and what I do for a living, and even that I have a daughter who's probably your age or thereabouts (and considerably more intelligent).

And I'm a guy, for the record.

were not arguing legality, were arguing ethics. i dont care if its legal that doesn't mean its ethical. the court case is outdated and face it, pretty soon we conservatives will have enough justices on the Supreme Court to change that abomination of a lawDon't be so sure about that--the overriding case right now is Casey v. Planned Parenthood, and that one was decided 6-3, not 5-4. Even if Roberts turns out to be inclined to overturn Roe, you're still a vote short.

You're right that it doesn't make sense--because having an abortion is, according to the laws of this country, not killing someone. It is a legal medical procedure, the same as removing an inflamed appendix--in the eyes of the law.
yet as a man of science surely you agree that when a heart beats and there is brain activity that means something is alive is it not, if you therefore cause there to be no more heartbeats or brain activity you have killed that creature

It's a privacy issue because it's related to the ability of a woman to make medical choices about her body. If you're a man, and someone told you that if you wanted to have sex, you absolutely could not use a condom, how would you feel? You'd probably feel like it's none of their damn business, and you'd be right.

Well, a few years before Roe v Wade was decided, there was another case that involved contraception, called Griswold v. Connecticut, which is the heart of the right to privacy. Connecticut law made it illegal to provide contraceptives to married couples. What the court found was that Americans had a right to privacy, based on zones of privacy found throughout the Bill of Rights and bolstered particularly by the Ninth and Fourteenth Amendments.

The legality of a woman to have an abortion is merely an extension of that right, but even so, when the Court decided Roe, it left some wiggle room. They said that for the first trimester, the state has no compelling interest in invading a woman's privacy, but that it can regulate abortions in the last two trimesters, providing that there are safeguards for the woman's health and life. And every case since then has pretty much fallen along those lines. But it's always based on the woman's right to make a private decision about her health and procreative choices.

It is a medical issue and in some cases a moral issue as far as I am concerned. Obviously others have a different view. I do not see it as a privacy issue. I am sorry but that is just lame. If that was suppose to make me go... Oh... I see now ... it is a privacy issue. It miserably failed.

dont call us simple children, because you are simply underestimating our intelligence and you are simply a moron, hey i can google court cases too and you cannot possibly be a teacher because a teacher could not be that ignorant that he would think age means stupidity, nor would he be foolish enough to talk to a teenager that way.

yet as a man of science surely you agree that when a heart beats and there is brain activity that means something is alive is it not, if you therefore cause there to be no more heartbeats or brain activity you have killed that creature
Why can't you get this through your head--what I believe is irrelevant. I could believe that the Lord Jesus Christ was going to come down here and start spanking Buddhists with his long, hard rod of justice and it wouldn't matter in terms of the laws we live under. My opinions and beliefs, your opinions and beliefs mean about the square root of jack-diddly-squat when placed up against our constitutional rights.

your basic argument is that the baby couldn't survive outside the womb, so what about premature babies hooked up in ICU. I suppose i could just go in and cut all of them up too by your logic.

believe it or not, all of our laws are based on beliefs. Thats kinda what the Supreme Court Justices and Senators get paid for, voicing the beliefs of the people at the time...thats the legislature. I dont know how you create any laws without beliefs.

Believe what you will, simple child. I can't stop you. There are plenty of people on this board who know who I am and what I do for a living, and even that I have a daughter who's probably your age or thereabouts (and considerably more intelligent).

And I'm a guy, for the record.

If you are so mature...than show it. I also have children their age but I am not going to totally discount what they say with a condesceding "simple child" Since you are an adult you are held to a higher standard...lol... that is why I expect better evidence and arguments from you. I have confidence you can do better than this. :) :)

your basic argument is that the baby couldn't survive outside the womb, so what about premature babies hooked up in ICU. I suppose i could just go in and cut all of them up too by your logic.
No--that's not my argument at all. I've stated my argument no less than three times here, most recently in the post directly above yours. If you can't grasp that, I'm sorry, but I really can't distill it down any more simply than that. It has nothing to do with medicine and everything to do with the right to make choices about one's own health and what one does with one's own body.

If you are so mature...than show it. I also have children their age but I am not going to totally discount what they say with a condesceding "simple child" Since you are an adult you are held to a higher standard...lol... that is why I expect better evidence and arguments from you. I have confidence you can do better than this. :) :)
I have done better than this--read the entire conversation if you don't believe me. It's after 4 in the morning here and I'm going to bed.

Why can't you get this through your head--what I believe is irrelevant. I could believe that the Lord Jesus Christ was going to come down here and start spanking Buddhists with his long, hard rod of justice and it wouldn't matter in terms of the laws we live under. My opinions and beliefs, your opinions and beliefs mean about the square root of jack-diddly-squat when placed up against our constitutional rights.

Our constitution is a living document. It is not done evolving. At one point african americans were slaves now they are not...at one point women couldn't vote now they can. Things change... who knows what the constitution will look like in 50 years.

Why can't you get this through your head--what I believe is irrelevant. I could believe that the Lord Jesus Christ was going to come down here and start spanking Buddhists with his long, hard rod of justice and it wouldn't matter in terms of the laws we live under. My opinions and beliefs, your opinions and beliefs mean about the square root of jack-diddly-squat when placed up against our constitutional rights.

and hey wow the constitution and bill of rights were based of the beliefs similar to those found in the bible.

yea, sure she is Nazz, why dont you try making a point every now and then. Well if your daughters smarter than me id say shes considerably more intelligent than youre displaying right now, (by the way, im not a child)

oh, well, it seems hes been scared off, probably just has an early class

The laws of a society in a liberal democracy are not designed to conform to any kind of scientific perspective on the world. The system of government that the vast majority of people on this forum live under is designed to create the most efficient, prosperous and content society possible. The arguments for the criminalization of abortion cannot be upheld under any of these grounds. It has been statistically proven that places where abortion is legal tend to flourish and places where it is illegal suffer from crime, overpopulation and inefficiency. Don't believe abortion is moral? don't get one. If we let the fundamentalists have their way on this one, next it'll be prohibition, then censorship of "indecent" entertainment, then who knows what?

Laws exist to keep society functioning beneficially while preserving individual liberty whenever possible. Any deviation from this rule is a step towards dictatorship.

nazz you couldnt possible be a good teacher what with determining peoples intelligence by their beliefs, heck if i did that to you i would say you had the intelligence of a five year old

The laws of a society in a liberal democracy are not designed to conform to any kind of scientific perspective on the world. The system of government that the vast majority of people on this forum live under is designed to create the most efficient, prosperous and content society possible. The arguments for the criminalization of abortion cannot be upheld under any of these grounds. It has been statistically proven that places where abortion is legal tend to flourish and places where it is illegal suffer from crime, overpopulation and inefficiency. Don't believe abortion is moral? don't get one. If we let the fundamentalists have their way on this one, next it'll be prohibition, then censorship of "indecent" entertainment, then who knows what?

Laws exist to keep society functioning beneficially while preserving individual liberty whenever possible. Any deviation from this rule is a step towards dictatorship.
or a step towards a greater understanding and value for life...well thats it for me tonight folks..happy arguing, g'night

The laws of a society in a liberal democracy are not designed to conform to any kind of scientific perspective on the world. The system of government that the vast majority of people on this forum live under is designed to create the most efficient, prosperous and content society possible. The arguments for the criminalization of abortion cannot be upheld under any of these grounds. It has been statistically proven that places where abortion is legal tend to flourish and places where it is illegal suffer from crime, overpopulation and inefficiency. Don't believe abortion is moral? don't get one. If we let the fundamentalists have their way on this one, next it'll be prohibition, then censorship of "indecent" entertainment, then who knows what?

Laws exist to keep society functioning beneficially while preserving individual liberty whenever possible. Any deviation from this rule is a step towards dictatorship.
last time i checked liberals were covering indecent entertainment ie video games and television. where as there are no need for abortion simply thanks to the morning after pill and adoption



well thats one way to stay up to 4:30 anyway i must be going

A soul, my good dear, a soul.


there is no such thing as a soul.....
I'm for abortions and againts capital punishment....

we're talkning embryos... these are [u]barely[/] living....

The reason for me, being against capital punishment, is that there is a chance that the convicted is actually innocent... No matter how you twist and turn it, there is always a small chance...

besides it's much more expensive to do capital punishment than, making him/her serve a lifetime scentence....

thirdly, living a life in a prison, seems much harcher than being killed.... cos when you die, you're dead, and thats that... give the b*st*rd some time to reflect on what he/she has done instead of ending their life...

Pro-choice and against capital punishment here, but I do think this question is (mostly) silly and irrelevant.

However, it does remind me of my youth in Catholic Sunday School where this chick told us the following (paraphrasing):
"Pro-abortion people call us (pro-lifers) 'anti-abortionists' and use that ugly 'anti-,' while they call themselves pro-choice, so they can sound good."

Thing is, "pro-lifers" REALLY ARE anti-abortion. Will anybody deny that? And pro-choicers ARE NOT (generally speaking) pro-abortion, as many would not openly advocate abortion for anybody aside from rape victims and cases with health issues, and almost nobody would advocate abortion for people who actually want to have children. So pro-choice is an accurate label.

However, "pro-life" is a meaningless label. Almost all of us are pro-life, regardless of whether we are against abortion or for allowing people to choose! And it can at least be construed as a hypocritical label if you support war or capital punishment while proclaiming yourself "pro-life." Not saying the position itself is hypocritical, because I understand it. I just don't believe in souls, believe fetuses have no rights as they're not members of society, and support reproductive freedom wherever possible. If you're against abortion, don't have one :)

for real. this is fucking ridiculous. the only reason anyone cares about what a woman is doing with her vagina is because it's another way to exert control over the seemingly weaker sex.

if you've ever masturbated, you're just as "guilty" as a woman who had an abortion.

and you know what? if you don't have a vagina, this discussion shouldn't even apply to you because it's not your decision to make. worry about your own ridiculous lives before you go off on some half-assed crusade to save "babies."

for real. this is fucking ridiculous. the only reason anyone cares about what a woman is doing with her vagina is because it's another way to exert control over the seemingly weaker sex.

if you've ever masturbated, you're just as "guilty" as a woman who had an abortion.

and you know what? if you don't have a vagina, this discussion shouldn't even apply to you because it's not your decision to make. worry about your own ridiculous lives before you go off on some half-assed crusade to save "babies."

Oh yeah. So we can all live in our own secluded little bubbles. Really, if you truly mean what you have posted, you shouldn't be on this forum. Actually, you shouldn't be interacting with anybody.

Oh yeah. So we can all live in our own secluded little bubbles. Really, if you truly mean what you have posted, you shouldn't be on this forum. Actually, you shouldn't be interacting with anybody.

Simple interaction is of no consequence. It's when you start screwing with people that the problems start. "It's your body, but so what?! You MUST carry this baby to full term, bitch! And make me some pie!"

dont be so idealistic, there are two types of people in the world, Pro-choice and pro-life, i wont list all possible political affiliations, itd take years.
I am aware of that, but you view the world as liberal conservative. There are a fuck-ton more than that.

I'm anti-death penalty, anti-Eutinasia and anti-abortion. Pro-life should mean across the board.

The Death Penalty and abortion are two completely different issues so I'm not sure why they are confusedly used in the same breath so often. Capital punishment is for those who have taken life, it would be against pro-life thinking to try to rehabilitate these criminals and set them loose to murder again. You know the expression "a stitch in time saves nine" thats what the death penalty does, it saves many more lives than it destroys. An unborn child has done nothing to harm anyone and to kill it with no cause is not only cruel but also unjust. The punishment does not fit the crime, which happens to be nonexistant. Im about protecting the innocents, not the killers, so stop throwing that pointless argument around.

Against, but, if you are trying to catch us in a seeming contradiction like a lot of people who ask this question are, remember that the child is not a rapist/murderer.

exactly. one death is just, the other is not.

I am aware of that, but you view the world as liberal conservative. There are a fuck-ton more than that.
not with power... I only concern myself with ideals that are capable of having an impact. The libertarian movement the fascist movement and all the others combined have no say in what goes on in Washington, so it is a futile effort to pretend that they do. Ralph Nader, the biggest third party candidate only managed to grab 0.4% of the popular vote. The fact is that no matter what you are, this is a two sided issue. Pro-life is a Conservative belief and pro-choice is a Liberal belief.

exactly. one death is just, the other is not.

Neither death is justified. And it's rather un-Christian of you to set guidelines for when it is and isn't ok to kill someone. There is no fine print in the ten commandments. Thou shalt not kill, period.

I'm anti-death penalty, anti-Eutinasia and anti-abortion. Pro-life should mean across the board.
Ha. I'm the exact opposite. I guess that makes me pro-death.

Umm....I recognize that Spinal Bifidia picture out of one of my mom's 1970's nursing textbooks...that exact same picture. Good luck getting me to believe the rest of the things on that page were from the Gulf War -.-
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!