NationStates Jolt Archive

I never had a proper debate! I was only lamely insulted...try me?

I am pro-choice.
First, let me explain to you the correct definition of PRO-CHOICE.
Pro-choice means that you think abortion should be allowed. Saying you're pro-life except when there's rape is NOT pro-life. If you think someone could get an abortion for ANY REASON, you're pro-CHOICE.

Ok. On with the opinion...

There are so many reasons why abortion should be legal.

1) Rape. Forcing someone to give birth after they had no choice whatsoever in the conception is CRUEL, especially if it is a child who cannot take care of the baby and therefore had to dump it on the parents or have a messed up rest of their life. They are already scarred from the raping...why add on a baby that reminds them of their rapist? Same with older women, too. They may already have children or a husband. This will only further remind them of their victimization. Some women/girls may not even be able to have the child, which ties in with...

2) Death. If it is a child, there is a much greater chance of death for the mother AND the baby. Some women could also have a high risk of death in childbirth. They should not have to have a child and die for it when they can try for another. In some cases both the mother and the child can die and the birth is still tried for. Why perhaps sacrifice two lives when you could sacrifice only one?

3) Disease. If the baby is going to be born with a terrible illness in which they will always live with pain, what is the point in making it live? It will most likely have a short, very unpleasant life. This can also make the mother suffer, watching her child die, when she could have it killed before it is born. This also goes with...

4)Vegetablism or severe retardation where the baby would be able to do almost nothing but have a heartbeat by itself. In the case of vegetablism, it probably won't even be able to think, and if it could, it would be in a continuous coma. I am NOT saying that mentally retarded persons should not be able to live. I am only talking about a retardation so severe the person could basically not live on their own.

5)Contraception failure. Self-explanatory. If the condom breaks, the pill doesn't do the job, etc...it is no fault of the couple. Pure accident.

Extra notes...

People say there are other solutions. One is adoption. Think of this: there is a couple, or mother, who simply CANNOT take care of a child when impregnated. Maybe she was raped and went through with the birth, etc. She plans on giving the baby up for adoption. But after basically suffering for 9 months, she looks down at the newborn baby and is simply too attached to give it away, when she obviously CANNOT take care of it. It will probably live a life of poverty. And as for those who do go up for adoption, many are not adopted and have to bounce from foster home to foster home and once they are old enough to take care of themselves, are alone and live an unfulfilling life. Many kids up for adoption become depressed, etc. Some even end up killing themselves, you would think. So what help is adoption, really?

If abortion is not available, women will just perform abortions on themselves. How unsafe is that? They could potentionally damage themselves and make it a more painful process for the baby inside of them.

And to the guys: it's not that you are uncapable of having an opinion on this issue. Some women just believe that the men have an easier time saying they are pro-life because they really don't have a chance of ever being victimized and impregnated, etc.

And one question...

Some people are both pro-life and anti-welfare. I do not understand this (not sayng anyone who is pro-life is anti-welfare). If someone is FORCED to give birth, and then cannot take care of it, they are saying they do no deserve welfare? Help me on this one...one cannot hold multiple jobs when they have a baby to take care of. Daycare is EXTREMELY expensive, I knowing this because I am an aunt and my sister often tells me about this.

In conclusion...having abortion, just in case, makes more sense than NOT HAVING IT AT ALL.

Some people are both pro-life and anti-welfare. I do not understand this (not sayng anyone who is pro-life is anti-welfare). If someone is FORCED to give birth, and then cannot take care of it, they are saying they do no deserve welfare? Help me on this one...one cannot hold multiple jobs when they have a baby to take care of. Daycare is EXTREMELY expensive, I knowing this because I am an aunt and my sister often tells me about this.
Here's the clincher. They think that taking money from their earnings is a dreadful infringement on their freedom, yet they believe they have a right to tell women what to do.

I am pro-choice.
First, let me explain to you the correct definition of PRO-CHOICE.
Pro-choice means that you think abortion should be allowed. Saying you're pro-life except when there's rape is NOT pro-life. If you think someone could get an abortion for ANY REASON, you're pro-CHOICE.
This is incorrect. Pro-choice means one thing, and that is the stance that abortion should not be legislated to prohibit it. This does not mean one favours abortion. Those Pro-Life advocates who make exceptions for certain cases are still promoting legislating abortion, and that is what Pro-Choice opposes.

Ok. On with the opinion...

*snip*

In conclusion...having abortion, just in case, makes more sense than NOT HAVING IT AT ALL.
The main issue for me, as Pro-Choice, is security of person. A woman has the right to say what goes on in her body, period.

Kicking up some Abortion Dust

I may be pro-choice, but even I am against "Abortion Dust".

In your statement about Pro choice, i must disagree. If the mothers life is in danger, she can have an abortion. That does not make me Pro choice. There are laws with circumstances with the and this can be one of them. As you said, why should the mother and child die? They shouldn't, so there is your one circumstance.

wow, abortion should be legal because of rape? howstupid, lets see how often rape cases are a cause of abortions. Less then 1%, because of that 1% abortion should be legal, no i don't believe so.

Also, you can always take religious point of view for their illness. Who are we to say to someone your life sucks, here let me kill you. That's quite moronic in my opinion. Anyways, predicting their illness is not always correct, so why take the chance? I believe you should take the chance.

Contraception failure...If you think you are already to have sex, be ready for a baby. Simple as that. As they say, the only way to be sure not to get pregnant is abstinence. Yet these people continually take chances, everything has a possibility. So if it happens to you, guess what, tough luck. Live with it, don't kill your baby because of your mistakes.

Also about adoption, sure there are kids that are despressed and kill themselves, but there are also kids who prove these statistics wrong. They grow up and have a great life. yes, the adoption life is tough, i must agree with you, but there are always exceptions to everything. If they become attached to the baby (the mother) keep him. Stop living for yourself and live for the kid you just created.

Abortions on yourself? I doubt many will do that, that's the same as abortion for rape. How many people would actually try to do that? i mean, come on now.

What I dont understand is one cant give the baby up for adoption but you can tear it limb from limb and scramble its brains? HOW COMPASSIONATE!! It isnt the baby's fault it was conceived. I understand with certain birth defects, trisomy conditions , anecephaly etc. and rape and ectopic pregnancies but that lame excuse oh I just couldnt give it up...cop out. Abortion is brutal and cruel. I would rather we have the RU pill and stick with that get rid of the d and c's I m not completely for it but it is less horrific and apalling than the infanticide that is going on now. Im all for its your body but your body isnt going through the abortion - the baby's is.

Im all for its your body but your body isnt going through the abortion - the baby's is.
And where is the 'baby'...?

What I dont understand is one cant give the baby up for adoption but you can tear it limb from limb and scramble its brains? HOW COMPASSIONATE!! It isnt the baby's fault it was conceived. I understand with certain birth defects, trisomy conditions , anecephaly etc. and rape and ectopic pregnancies but that lame excuse oh I just couldnt give it up...cop out. Abortion is brutal and cruel. I would rather we have the RU pill and stick with that get rid of the d and c's I m not completely for it but it is less horrific and apalling than the infanticide that is going on now.
Wow, I have to agree with you that choosing a 2nd or 3rd trimester abortion over adoption because they "couldn't bear to part with it" is just wrong.

Im all for its your body but your body isnt going through the abortion - the baby's is.
The child's body is not the only body going through trama in abortion, and in the case of the majority of abortions (1st trimester) only the mother's body goes through any trama.

I would think ripping arms and legs off would be considered trauma. The baby has a hearbeat very early in fetal development and arms and legs as well. Its amazing how early all the vital organs (including the brain) begin in fetal development. I would just rather Ru pill be the only thing allowed...one knows if they used contraception or not. Just do that and this horror wouldnt have to continue. Im not for it but its better than this.

Here's my two cents-

As a baby, you don't have much control over your life anyway. You mother(or father) dresses you, feeds you, takes care of you until you are old enough to do it yourself. Most people don't even remeber anything before being 5 years old (I made that statistic up, my first memory was from when I was 5). Who is to say that an abortion was not in your best interest, if you don't have a say in it, as an infant.

Another point- There are many women who don't want to have a baby. Either they have a stressful job or don't feel like they would be a good mother or they don't like children. How can you tell someone that they can't enjoy something as natural as sex because they could end up with a baby?

#3- Having abortion legal cold save lives. If it is outlawed in the U.S, I know that women would go to Canada, or Mexico for an abortion. They could end up with a doctor who has no idea what he's doing, could cause a horrible infection or even kill her. Having abortion as an option just makes sense, even if you yourself never have one.

well then there is sterilization then isnt there? That isnt cold hearted but its a better alternative than to use baby butchering as birth control. I personally think if you go in for a third or fourth than I hope you can never conceive again because you dont care what you do or who you hurt and you probably dont deserve children. Have sex , thats fine but use the contraception correctly and pay attention to what you are doing (pills vs. antibiotics not good) and you wont get in this situation. How likely are you to be that 1%..not very likely. If one form doesnt work for you , there are others and better yet ..use 2 forms. Laziness is no excuse.

wow, abortion should be legal because of rape? howstupid, lets see how often rape cases are a cause of abortions. Less then 1%, because of that 1% abortion should be legal, no i don't believe so.

Contraception failure...If you think you are already to have sex, be ready for a baby. Simple as that. As they say, the only way to be sure not to get pregnant is abstinence. Yet these people continually take chances, everything has a possibility. So if it happens to you, guess what, tough luck. Live with it, don't kill your baby because of your mistakes.

Abortions on yourself? I doubt many will do that, that's the same as abortion for rape. How many people would actually try to do that? i mean, come on now.

Give me your stats. How do you figure that rape cases are only cause for 1% of abortions? Bullshit. This is a cruel world, and there is more rape than you think.

Someone shouldn't be limited from sex just because they don't want a baby. That's also bullshit.

And you wouldn't BELIEVE how many coathanger abortions people try. Look it up, hun.

4)Vegetablism or severe retardation where the baby would be able to do almost nothing but have a heartbeat by itself. In the case of vegetablism, it probably won't even be able to think, and if it could, it would be in a continuous coma. I am NOT saying that mentally retarded persons should not be able to live. I am only talking about a retardation so severe the person could basically not live on their own.



umm.. doctors can be wrong! that's why there are second opinions!

If doctors are always right, i should be dead and or severly retared. I was born at 23 weeks, 4 months premature, I weighed a pound and a half and was 12 inches long. You could still see through my skin. Doctors gave me 1% of 1% chance to live, or 99.99% chance to die. Happly i'm still living and am perfectly normal. So i would fall under your definition of retardation, but getting back on topic, the right to life as given in the constitution is still a right to life no matter who the person is, or what their mental status.

Give me your stats. How do you figure that rape cases are only cause for 1% of abortions? Bullshit. This is a cruel world, and there is more rape than you think.

Someone shouldn't be limited from sex just because they don't want a baby. That's also bullshit.

And you wouldn't BELIEVE how many coathanger abortions people try. Look it up, hun.

here's my proof, if you don't believe me
Reasons for abortion:
Wants to postpone childbearing: 25.5%
Wants no (more) children: 7.9%
Cannot afford a baby: 21.3%
Having a child will disrupt education or job: 10.8%
Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy: 14.1%
Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy: 12.2%
Risk to maternal health: 2.8%
Risk to fetal health: 3.3%
Other: 2.1%
There were 1.31 million abortions in the U.S. in 2000 [Alan Guttmacher Institute] [B]Cases of rape or incest accounted for 1.0% of abortions in 2000 [Alan Guttmacher Institute]

yes, i'm sure plenty of people do self abortion. Never said they didn't it, but it isn't a significant amount of people that do that.

Also, if you get pregnant during sex, it's your own damn fault! If you can't takethe consequences then don't do it. It's ismple.

here's my proof, if you don't believe me
Reasons for abortion:
Wants to postpone childbearing: 25.5%
Wants no (more) children: 7.9%
Cannot afford a baby: 21.3%
Having a child will disrupt education or job: 10.8%
Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy: 14.1%
Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy: 12.2%
Risk to maternal health: 2.8%
Risk to fetal health: 3.3%
Other: 2.1%
There were 1.31 million abortions in the U.S. in 2000 [Alan Guttmacher Institute] [B]Cases of rape or incest accounted for 1.0% of abortions in 2000 [Alan Guttmacher Institute]

yes, i'm sure plenty of people do self abortion. Never said they didn't it, but it isn't a significant amount of people that do that.

Also, if you get pregnant during sex, it's your own damn fault! If you can't takethe consequences then don't do it. It's ismple.

Look, people, I'm not saying anyone who walks in the clinic should get an abortion. I think there SHOULD be limits, but it should still be legal! If they just had sex with no protection purposely, obviously the female would get pregant. Instances such as these, unless they have a truly good reason, should not be granted abortion. I'll meet you halfway. Also, I think there should be a limit to how many abortions per person...

IT IS NOT ALWAYS YOUR FAULT IF YOU GET PREGNANT DURING SEX! :headbang: Oh yes, I purposely broke the condom so I could go have an abortion! Yeah, I'm so sure. It's stupid that you think people should only have sex when they want a baby. Bull once again.

:upyours:

but people know that having sex may result in a baby, they teach it all the time in sex ed. Therefore they know that they may have a child so they should take responsibility of their actions.

Look, people, I'm not saying anyone who walks in the clinic should get an abortion. I think there SHOULD be limits, but it should still be legal! If they just had sex with no protection purposely, obviously the female would get pregant. Instances such as these, unless they have a truly good reason, should not be granted abortion. I'll meet you halfway. Also, I think there should be a limit to how many abortions per person...

IT IS NOT ALWAYS YOUR FAULT IF YOU GET PREGNANT DURING SEX! :headbang: Oh yes, I purposely broke the condom so I could go have an abortion! Yeah, I'm so sure. It's stupid that you think people should only have sex when they want a baby. Bull once again.

:upyours:

well, look, i never said anyone breaks condoms on purpose. This is what i'm saying, if you you are going to take the risk of getting pregnant for sex, then beware. Unfortunate things happen. Sometimes bad things happen, but end up turning out good. Just have to pull through hard times, it would be hard for the rest of your life. Also, don't put words in my mouth, never once did i say they shouldn't have sex unless they want a baby. I said if you are going to have sex, beware of what can happen. Not don't do it unless you have a baby. Even though in my opinion, i would say don't have sex unless you want a baby, but i'll put that opinion behind me. I'm just saying, beware of the circumstances of sex.

Also, as i said, the only instance abortion would be okay is if the mothers life is in danger. I'm not including rape or incest because of the above statistics, but even then, i think you can persevere and have the baby. There are relatives, friends, and people at church that could find a good home for the baby. If you have another valid reason they should have an abortion, please explain it to me.

abortion should be legal because of rape? howstupid, lets see how often rape cases are a cause of abortions. Less then 1%, because of that 1% abortion should be legal, no i don't believe so.


Isn't it interesting that many of the people who think abortion should be legal because of this one percent also think guns should be illegal because of the >1% of them used in crimes?

Abortions on yourself? I doubt many will do that, that's the same as abortion for rape. How many people would actually try to do that? i mean, come on now.

In countries where abortion is illegal (and in countries where it was illegal) many women (generally young girls) suffered the horrors of DIY and backstreet abortions that caused many deaths and many more girls to becombe infertile or suffer health problems throughout life.

As an aside:
At the moment there are at least four threads on abortion on the front page of the "General" alone. I'm guessing there have been many others too. Surely one would surfice.

In the entire history of this forum and the abortion topic how many have budged an inch from their position? I think a fair guess would be zero. I think a similar comment could be said for all religious and political threads. REally I think any thread on politics, morality or religion should be posted with a large "flame" animation next to it to warn exactly what the purpose would be.

Also, as i said, the only instance abortion would be okay is if the mothers life is in danger. I'm not including rape or incest because of the above statistics, but even then, i think you can persevere and have the baby. There are relatives, friends, and people at church that could find a good home for the baby. If you have another valid reason they should have an abortion, please explain it to me.

maybe you should reread my opinion. i had more reasons than just rape.

you obviously think abortion should be available to some people. so what exactly are you arguing?

maybe you should reread my opinion. i had more reasons than just rape.

you obviously think abortion should be available to some people. so what exactly are you arguing?

i didn't only argue rape. As you already know. Look at my post int he beginning. I'msaying abortion should be illegal. I mean the amount of times the mothers life is in danger isn't enough to let all babies die. If you make it legal for everyone the deaths can only multiply up 10,20,50 fold.

i didn't only argue rape. As you already know. Look at my post int he beginning. I'msaying abortion should be illegal. I mean the amount of times the mothers life is in danger isn't enough to let all babies die. If you make it legal for everyone the deaths can only multiply up 10,20,50 fold.

Again...you should reread what I wrote.
I don't think anyone should be able to get an abortion.

THERE SHOULD BE LIMITS.

define your limits.

you should think about the implications of what you are proposing.

if only certain "worthy" women can get abortions, how will their worthiness be determined, by whom, and how long will it take to get this approval?

if a woman didnt go to the police when she was raped, is she now going to be forced to carry her rapists child? if she didnt go to the police she might be lying now!

are women going to have to start lying in order to get an abortion? every time she has unplanned sex, is she going to have to run to the police and claim to have been raped by some unknown stranger just in case she ends up pregnant?

a woman takes one of those early pregnancy detection tests at home. she is 5 weeks pregnant. the best time to have an abortion if she is going to get one. once it gets through the "worthiness test" how far along is she going to be? 8 weeks? 12? 20??

if the father is going to have veto power over the procedure, is she going to tell him? is she going to have to get another male friend to come in with her to lie and say its his baby? is she going to have to tell the "worthiness committee that she is a slut and just has no way of knowing who the father might be?

how many unwanted babies do you want to force a woman to have? how much to you really want to limit her life to either being the shrew who denies her husband sex or the baby factory? do you want to go back to the days when 4 children was a small family?

do you want children to be the PUNISHMENT for having sex rather than the joy of their parents lives?

do you really want women who are so callous as to use abortion as a method of birthcontrol to be the caretakers of infants?

sure couples should use birth control. how are you going to enforce it? how are you going to MAKE SURE that the woman seeking an abortion was using something at the time? is she going to have to bring in the broken condom?

adoption is NOT the answer. its very sad that there are couples who cannot have a baby naturally. but a pregnant woman does not OWE them her baby. most women who carry a baby to term are going to keep it, not give it away. unless they are so utterly financially or situationally stressed that they cannot possibly keep it. you really want women to be FORCED to give up babies? do you want us to end up like communist romania with orphanages filled with unloved and unwanted babies?

people have sex. people have always had sex. people will always have sex. its not WRONG. to suggest that adults should abstain from sex unless they want a baby is never going to work. it denies their humanity.

if women are to have control over their lives they need control over their reproduction. we are not just baby factories. we are not just mommies. we have the right to control our own bodies.

no woman should have to provide a "good excuse" in order to get an early abortion. she should be recognized as the moral agent she is. her crisis and her tragedy is not served by having to humiliate herself by passing some test.

i know that some of you will say "yes thats exactly what i want", the rest of you should think about it.

you should think about the implications of what you are proposing.

if only certain "worthy" women can get abortions, how will their worthiness be determined, by whom, and how long will it take to get this approval?

if a woman didnt go to the police when she was raped, is she now going to be forced to carry her rapists child? if she didnt go to the police she might be lying now!

are women going to have to start lying in order to get an abortion? every time she has unplanned sex, is she going to have to run to the police and claim to have been raped by some unknown stranger just in case she ends up pregnant?

a woman takes one of those early pregnancy detection tests at home. she is 5 weeks pregnant. the best time to have an abortion if she is going to get one. once it gets through the "worthiness test" how far along is she going to be? 8 weeks? 12? 20??

if the father is going to have veto power over the procedure, is she going to tell him? is she going to have to get another male friend to come in with her to lie and say its his baby? is she going to have to tell the "worthiness committee that she is a slut and just has no way of knowing who the father might be?

how many unwanted babies do you want to force a woman to have? how much to you really want to limit her life to either being the shrew who denies her husband sex or the baby factory? do you want to go back to the days when 4 children was a small family?

do you want children to be the PUNISHMENT for having sex rather than the joy of their parents lives?

do you really want women who are so callous as to use abortion as a method of birthcontrol to be the caretakers of infants?

sure couples should use birth control. how are you going to enforce it? how are you going to MAKE SURE that the woman seeking an abortion was using something at the time? is she going to have to bring in the broken condom?

adoption is NOT the answer. its very sad that there are couples who cannot have a baby naturally. but a pregnant woman does not OWE them her baby. most women who carry a baby to term are going to keep it, not give it away. unless they are so utterly financially or situationally stressed that they cannot possibly keep it. you really want women to be FORCED to give up babies? do you want us to end up like communist romania with orphanages filled with unloved and unwanted babies?

people have sex. people have always had sex. people will always have sex. its not WRONG. to suggest that adults should abstain from sex unless they want a baby is never going to work. it denies their humanity.

if women are to have control over their lives they need control over their reproduction. we are not just baby factories. we are not just mommies. we have the right to control our own bodies.

no woman should have to provide a "good excuse" in order to get an early abortion. she should be recognized as the moral agent she is. her crisis and her tragedy is not served by having to humiliate herself by passing some test.

i know that some of you will say "yes thats exactly what i want", the rest of you should think about it.


wtf? thebest time toget an abortion? wtf kind of stupid stuff is that? i mean seriously. If you get an abortion i don't care when you do it. If you do the daybefore you're due, it's the same as if you do it the first day you're pregnant. Come on and think about that, It's still killing the damn baby...ignorant.

Worthiness of abortion. let me say this again, the only reason you should be able to have an abortion is if the mothers life is in danger. Simple as that. You don't need be to judge that, or have it take a certain amount of time because the fact is, you know right there.

Also we covered rape. STOP BRINGING UP RAPE. RAPE IS LESS THEN 1 PERCENT OF THE ISSUES. damn, look at my statistics already provided. Also yes, i would punish the parents for having sex and getting pregnant. The fact is they knew the risks, took the chance, and lost. It's simple. Why should they kill someone because of their mistakes, now that's stupid. "If you can't do the time don't do the crime."

Again, i never said having sex is WRONG. Geez people, i said if you have sex beware of what can happen. Man...why must i repeat myself. Everything you said has already been talked about. Adoption can be the answer. Maybe not always to the adoption agencies, but to close friends/relatives/church mates someone. Think...wow...

Think about the babies rights. You people act like the baby is an inanimate object, someone that canbe tossed around. the mom this, the mom that, it's not only about the mom. why do we think we have a problem with abortion?!?!BECAUE IT'S ALSO ABOUT THE BABY!!!

And you wouldn't BELIEVE how many coathanger abortions people try. Look it up, hun.
shudder... someone who loves abortion enough to make a up a thread called 'Kicking up some Abortion dust' then calls someone 'hun.'
Twisted...

I forgot to mention earlier (cant believe it but I did) just because its a legal procedure doesnt make it safe, in 1986 a good friend of mine died from sepsis from a LEGAL abortion ironically at the time I was in the hospital with my new son. The doctors are greedy son of a bitches who are violating the hippocratic oath "first do no harm". Plenty of harm there. Everybody died! Her parents won a million dollar lawsuit mainly due to the fact that he kept giving women septic infections in every state he went. This is a very violent unnatural act being performed on the body. I felt very sorry and bad for my dead friend and have never judged her but if that bastard of a doctor hadnt done that....

I forgot to mention earlier (cant believe it but I did) just because its a legal procedure doesnt make it safe, in 1986 a good friend of mine died from sepsis from a LEGAL abortion ironically at the time I was in the hospital with my new son. And a person died last year getting routine nose surgery. Accidents happen. Even if it is 99.9% safe, there's always going to be a small chance in a surgery or procedure that something might go wrong.

Just out of curiousity ... for the pro-choice (or those arguing in defense of abortion, whatever you call yourselves) people in here ... what is so special about childbirth? Or the second or third trimester or whenever you believe that abortion should be legal until? How is it not arbitrary? What happens to the child as it is being born that gives it the right to live? What are your reasons?

Please note that I'm not taking sides here ... I respect you all, and I acknowledge your right to your own opinions. Please don't flame me. I'm just asking a question. Thanks.

Just out of curiousity ... for the pro-choice (or those arguing in defense of abortion, whatever you call yourselves) people in here ... what is so special about childbirth? Or the second or third trimester or whenever you believe that abortion should be legal until? How is it not arbitrary? What happens to the child as it is being born that gives it the right to live? What are your reasons?

Please note that I'm not taking sides here ... I respect you all, and I acknowledge your right to your own opinions. Please don't flame me. I'm just asking a question. Thanks.
because it is a matter of law, it is fairly arbitrary. one day the abortion is legal, the next day it is illegal.

but to get started, you can see the diffference between the newly born baby and the fertilzed egg. they are not equal eh?

a very high percentage of fertilized eggs fail to implant into the woman's uterus. i find that to be a good reason to have any artificial means of preventing implantation to be OK.

once the embryo has implanted, the woman is pregnant. the embryo is alive, it is human but its not a baby and its not a person. the woman has a choice at that point to decide if she is willing to allow this embryo to grow inside her. its her body and her choice. she has a finite amount of time to decide. the majority of abortions occur before 8 weeks and the vast majority occur under 13 weeks.

after some arbitrary time as set by law in the various jurisdictions it is no longer solely up to the woman. she has to have a medical reason or some other compelling reason. after all she has known she is pregnant for quite a while and had more than enough time to decide. there comes a point where only extreme reasons of survival of the mother or death of the fetus is a reason to get an abortion.

i have no problem trusting that the vast majority of women who get abortions do so after careful thought. they dont do it lightly or for no good reason. i dont need to know what those reasons are. i see no need to complicate a personal tragedy.

because it is a matter of law, it is fairly arbitrary. one day the abortion is legal, the next day it is illegal.

but to get started, you can see the diffference between the newly born baby and the fertilzed egg. they are not equal eh?

a very high percentage of fertilized eggs fail to implant into the woman's uterus. i find that to be a good reason to have any artificial means of preventing implantation to be OK.

once the embryo has implanted, the woman is pregnant. the embryo is alive, it is human but its not a baby and its not a person. the woman has a choice at that point to decide if she is willing to allow this embryo to grow inside her. its her body and her choice. she has a finite amount of time to decide. the majority of abortions occur before 8 weeks and the vast majority occur under 13 weeks.

after some arbitrary time as set by law in the various jurisdictions it is no longer solely up to the woman. she has to have a medical reason or some other compelling reason. after all she has known she is pregnant for quite a while and had more than enough time to decide. there comes a point where only extreme reasons of survival of the mother or death of the fetus is a reason to get an abortion.

i have no problem trusting that the vast majority of women who get abortions do so after careful thought. they dont do it lightly or for no good reason. i dont need to know what those reasons are. i see no need to complicate a personal tragedy.

Your reasoning makes sense. But when then during the pregnancy does abortion become wrong? When, as you put it, it becomes a person, and why, is what I'm trying to understand.

Just out of curiousity ... for the pro-choice (or those arguing in defense of abortion, whatever you call yourselves) people in here ... what is so special about childbirth? Or the second or third trimester or whenever you believe that abortion should be legal until? How is it not arbitrary? What happens to the child as it is being born that gives it the right to live? What are your reasons?

Please note that I'm not taking sides here ... I respect you all, and I acknowledge your right to your own opinions. Please don't flame me. I'm just asking a question. Thanks.
Personally it is at the point of brain activity where I draw the line … its hardly universal point though but at that point where it can start to feel pain is when a non emergency pregnancy for me should stop

And btw it is pro choice not pro abortion some of us are against abortion in the personal while realizing that it is the mothers choice.

define your limits.

OK. Only 1 or 2 abortions issued per woman per lifetime.
Good reason for it, not just "I had sex without protection and I decided in the end I didn't want it."

Good reasons include
1) rape, 2) disease, 3) death, 4)unable to care for the child

that cut off would be at 18 weeks then since that is when the brain waves can first be registered on an EKG.

Originally Posted by Ashmoria
if women are to have control over their lives they need control over their reproduction. we are not just baby factories. we are not just mommies. we have the right to control our own bodies.

no woman should have to provide a "good excuse" in order to get an early abortion. she should be recognized as the moral agent she is. her crisis and her tragedy is not served by having to humiliate herself by passing some test.

***

The baby's right to life out weighs that of the mother's right to control their own bodies, for to violate that would be to violate the basis of the constitution.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life,

and since when is pregnacy a crisis and a tragedy?

shudder... someone who loves abortion enough to make a up a thread called 'Kicking up some Abortion dust' then calls someone 'hun.'
Twisted...

I 'love' abortion now? Thanks for bringing that to my attention, I didn't know that about myself! :confused:

define your limits.

One abortion per fetus.

wtf? thebest time toget an abortion? wtf kind of stupid stuff is that? i mean seriously. If you get an abortion i don't care when you do it. If you do the daybefore you're due, it's the same as if you do it the first day you're pregnant. Come on and think about that, It's still killing the damn baby...ignorant.

So you're saying a clump of cells and an almost fully developed, viable baby are exactly the same in terms of lives?

Following that logic, I have to assume you think masturbation is a sin, because sperm is potential children and being wasted every time a guy does that.

Worthiness of abortion. let me say this again, the only reason you should be able to have an abortion is if the mothers life is in danger. Simple as that. You don't need be to judge that, or have it take a certain amount of time because the fact is, you know right there.

Also we covered rape. STOP BRINGING UP RAPE. RAPE IS LESS THEN 1 PERCENT OF THE ISSUES. damn, look at my statistics already provided. Also yes, i would punish the parents for having sex and getting pregnant. The fact is they knew the risks, took the chance, and lost. It's simple. Why should they kill someone because of their mistakes, now that's stupid. "If you can't do the time don't do the crime."

Again, i never said having sex is WRONG. Geez people, i said if you have sex beware of what can happen. Man...why must i repeat myself. Everything you said has already been talked about. Adoption can be the answer. Maybe not always to the adoption agencies, but to close friends/relatives/church mates someone. Think...wow...

And yet somehow I doubt you'd open your own home to children. Have you ever seen the foster care system that most kids like that end up in? I live in a foster home (I'm not a foster child myself, though we take them in). And let me assure you that from being thrown around, and many, MANY foster homes being quite unfit, most of these kids are screwed up.

A majority of the people getting abortions, as you seem to blatantly ignore, are NOT people who are doing it because it's convenient. No, it's people who realize that they CAN'T TAKE CARE OF THEIR CHILDREN PROPERLY. And there AREN'T ENOUGH PEOPLE WHO WILL TAKE IN KIDS.

I personally find it amusing how so many pro-life people are so insistent on these kids being born, but won't do much to help them out themselves... :rolleyes:

Think about the babies rights. You people act like the baby is an inanimate object, someone that canbe tossed around. the mom this, the mom that, it's not only about the mom. why do we think we have a problem with abortion?!?!BECAUE IT'S ALSO ABOUT THE BABY!!!

You act like the fetus's rights override those of the mother. The fetus is a parasite until it's born, and until the end of the first trimester it hardly even knows what's going on.

*snip*

Well said.

You know, this snippy thing is quite handy.

I still can't figure out what "Abortion Dust" is.

I still can't figure out what "Abortion Dust" is.

I think the real question is... what ISN'T it?

wow, abortion should be legal because of rape? howstupid, lets see how often rape cases are a cause of abortions. Less then 1%, because of that 1% abortion should be legal, no i don't believe so.

Abortions on yourself? I doubt many will do that, that's the same as abortion for rape. How many people would actually try to do that? i mean, come on now.

First off, without proper institutions to perform abortions, yes people do hurt themselves doing it to themselves or from backstreet abortions. It happens and there is no need to endanger the life of the pregnant woman who is having it done. If she has decided to have an abortion regardless, then we need to do what is necessary to protect her life. This would go along with a previous reason of yours that the life of the mother is the only reason to have a abortion. If she choose to have an abortion, and has no legal way, and therefore no sanitary facility, to do this, then her life is indeed in danger.

To the other quote, so people who are less than one percent do not count? It doesn't matter how small of a percentage it is, that group is still important, and still deserves to rights. Wow, is that hard to understand? Well here is some people who would not have any rights under this rule that you have stated:

Acadian/Cajun, Afghan, Albanian, Alsatian, Egyptian, Iraqi, Jordanian, Lebanese, Moroccan, Palestinian, Syrian, Other Arab, Armenian, Assyrian/Chaldean/Syriac, Australian, Austrian, Basque, Belgian, Brazilian
British, Bulgarian, Canadian, Celtic, Croatian, Cypriot, Czech, Czechoslovakian
Danish, Estonian, Finnish, French Canadian, German Russian, Greek, Guyanese
Hungarian, Icelander, Iranian, Israeli, Latvian, Lithuanian, Luxemburger, Macedonian, Maltese, Pennsylvania German, Portuguese, Romanian, Russian,
Scandinavian, Serbian, Slavic, Slovak, Slovene, Subsaharan African, Cape Verdean, Ethiopian, Ghanian, Kenyan, Liberian, Nigerian, Sierra Leonean, Somalian, South African, Sudanese, Other Subsaharan African, Swiss, Turkish,
Ukrainian, Welsh, Bahamian, Barbadian, Belizean, British West Indian, Dutch West Indian, Haitian, Jamaican, Trinidadian or Tobagonian, U.S. Virgin Islander,West Indian, Other West Indian.

These are all groups whose ethnic origin represents less than one percent of the population according to the last US Census (2000). No tell me all these people don't matter.

*snip*

*applause* that was a point well made.

I forgot to mention earlier (cant believe it but I did) just because its a legal procedure doesnt make it safe, in 1986 a good friend of mine died from sepsis from a LEGAL abortion ironically at the time I was in the hospital with my new son. The doctors are greedy son of a bitches who are violating the hippocratic oath "first do no harm". Plenty of harm there. Everybody died! Her parents won a million dollar lawsuit mainly due to the fact that he kept giving women septic infections in every state he went. This is a very violent unnatural act being performed on the body. I felt very sorry and bad for my dead friend and have never judged her but if that bastard of a doctor hadnt done that....


This is not the fault of the person getting an abortion... There was a failure in the medical system here and the procedure just happened to be abortion.. She could have been in for any number of reason and gotten sepsis if proper medical procedures was not given... Were all the procedures abortions that he did... and gave patients sepsis


This goes to holding to account who is guilty of what. If proper procedures had been followed then their would have been no sepsis... Consider abortions being illegal and how many so called backroom quacks would do them and what they might pass on.

I feel a woman should have a choice of a proper abortion in a safe place under proper medical care if that be her choice. As a male I feel if I am party to the sex act then I need support the mother in her choice and would hope we could have the child and raise child... however if she decides not to then would hope she can get safe care to be rid of child.

Somebody has mentioned groups that would support those who have no other support.. I have found that many of these are doctors who gain off the fact that women need medical care or mental care around childbirth. Thus abortions cut into their profits.. You said they were greedy SOBs... well they are. Many see abortion as an cut in thier progfits thus they don't want to see it. I will stop and say that the earlier mention of sterilization of repeats is one I would support for both the woman and man who keep using defective condoms that always break or BCPills that don't work. As it takes two to make a baby.. Rape is another issue as any male rapes needs to pay for his actions... clip him to keep him from having more chidren and lock him up for good to keep him from repeating his rape.

The only time government needs to get into abortion is if the medical community fails to safely do them when they are done. Also if it was illegal then there would be no figures on why it was done and even how many have been done in an area... so making it legal allows easier control and safer procedures. Also they need strong laws on rape to keep those who rape locked up from society...

1) Rape. Forcing someone to give birth after they had no choice whatsoever in the conception is CRUEL, especially if it is a child who cannot take care of the baby and therefore had to dump it on the parents or have a messed up rest of their life. They are already scarred from the raping...why add on a baby that reminds them of their rapist? Same with older women, too. They may already have children or a husband. This will only further remind them of their victimization. Some women/girls may not even be able to have the child, which ties in with...
That is what adoption is for. And that shit that adoption is not always available is bull. If she can not give the child what it will need to have a comfortable life she must give it up. (I love you, but I have to kill you.)

2) Death. If it is a child, there is a much greater chance of death for the mother AND the baby. Some women could also have a high risk of death in childbirth. They should not have to have a child and die for it when they can try for another. In some cases both the mother and the child can die and the birth is still tried for. Why perhaps sacrifice two lives when you could sacrifice only one?
Let nature take it's course.


3) Disease. If the baby is going to be born with a terrible illness in which they will always live with pain, what is the point in making it live? It will most likely have a short, very unpleasant life. This can also make the mother suffer, watching her child die, when she could have it killed before it is born. This also goes with...

4)Vegetablism or severe retardation where the baby would be able to do almost nothing but have a heartbeat by itself. In the case of vegetablism, it probably won't even be able to think, and if it could, it would be in a continuous coma. I am NOT saying that mentally retarded persons should not be able to live. I am only talking about a retardation so severe the person could basically not live on their own.
This one I will agree with in extreme situations.

5)Contraception failure. Self-explanatory. If the condom breaks, the pill doesn't do the job, etc...it is no fault of the couple. Pure accident.
If you have sex then you must be ready to live with the consequences.
Let's see: little Amy thinks she is ready for sex "I'm ready to have sex, damn the condom broke, shit I'm pregnant, I'm going to make my life easier and go have an abortion, wow that was fun. The condom won't break this time."
Come on give me a break, people are just soo stupid.

If abortion is not available, women will just perform abortions on themselves. How unsafe is that? They could potentionally damage themselves and make it a more painful process for the baby inside of them.
Tough.

The main issue for me, as Pro-Choice, is security of person. A woman has the right to say what goes on in her body, period.
I am so tired of hearing this and is bullshit. Ask the child if they want to live. Oh wait you can not. That child has every right to live as anyone else.

Someone shouldn't be limited from sex just because they don't want a baby. That's also bullshit.
If you don't want a baby then you do not put yourself in a situation that could result in pregnancy. Sex is not nessasary to live.


Here is the solution. DO NOT HAVE SEX!!!!!

I could keep going, but what is the point? 99% of all the reasons in this thread for abortion are shit. Simply not wanting the burden of raising a child does not justify abortion. I do not want the burden of going to work everyday, should I quit? I do not like changing the oil in my car, shoul I sell it? I do not like to cook, should I quit eating? I do not like paying taxes, should I quit paying my taxes and go to jail? I hate my neighbors, should I burn there house down with them in it?

however if she decides not to then would hope she can get safe care to be rid of child.
You make it sound like taking out the trash.

Shame on all you pro choicers. I hope you all get yeast infections. Yes, men can get them too.

I 'love' abortion now? Thanks for bringing that to my attention, I didn't know that about myself! :confused:
Kicking up some Abortion dust??
Like thats suposed to be amusing or something, what the hell does it mean anyway?

First off, without proper institutions to perform abortions, yes people do hurt themselves doing it to themselves or from backstreet abortions. It happens and there is no need to endanger the life of the pregnant woman who is having it done. If she has decided to have an abortion regardless, then we need to do what is necessary to protect her life. This would go along with a previous reason of yours that the life of the mother is the only reason to have a abortion. If she choose to have an abortion, and has no legal way, and therefore no sanitary facility, to do this, then her life is indeed in danger.

To the other quote, so people who are less than one percent do not count? It doesn't matter how small of a percentage it is, that group is still important, and still deserves to rights. Wow, is that hard to understand? Well here is some people who would not have any rights under this rule that you have stated:

Acadian/Cajun, Afghan, Albanian, Alsatian, Egyptian, Iraqi, Jordanian, Lebanese, Moroccan, Palestinian, Syrian, Other Arab, Armenian, Assyrian/Chaldean/Syriac, Australian, Austrian, Basque, Belgian, Brazilian
British, Bulgarian, Canadian, Celtic, Croatian, Cypriot, Czech, Czechoslovakian
Danish, Estonian, Finnish, French Canadian, German Russian, Greek, Guyanese
Hungarian, Icelander, Iranian, Israeli, Latvian, Lithuanian, Luxemburger, Macedonian, Maltese, Pennsylvania German, Portuguese, Romanian, Russian,
Scandinavian, Serbian, Slavic, Slovak, Slovene, Subsaharan African, Cape Verdean, Ethiopian, Ghanian, Kenyan, Liberian, Nigerian, Sierra Leonean, Somalian, South African, Sudanese, Other Subsaharan African, Swiss, Turkish,
Ukrainian, Welsh, Bahamian, Barbadian, Belizean, British West Indian, Dutch West Indian, Haitian, Jamaican, Trinidadian or Tobagonian, U.S. Virgin Islander,West Indian, Other West Indian.

These are all groups whose ethnic origin represents less than one percent of the population according to the last US Census (2000). No tell me all these people don't matter.

No, that's not what i meant by the 1%. This is what i mean, why should abortion by legal because of the 1% that areraped. What is your logic there?

I have been saying people do backstreet abortions. Yes, i know they hurt themselves. What i am saying is if abortion is illegal then the abortion rate would dramtically decrease. Sure some people would do backstreet abortions, not saying they wouldn't, but the rate of abortions would be decreased.

So you're saying a clump of cells and an almost fully developed, viable baby are exactly the same in terms of lives?

Following that logic, I have to assume you think masturbation is a sin, because sperm is potential children and being wasted every time a guy does that.



And yet somehow I doubt you'd open your own home to children. Have you ever seen the foster care system that most kids like that end up in? I live in a foster home (I'm not a foster child myself, though we take them in). And let me assure you that from being thrown around, and many, MANY foster homes being quite unfit, most of these kids are screwed up.

A majority of the people getting abortions, as you seem to blatantly ignore, are NOT people who are doing it because it's convenient. No, it's people who realize that they CAN'T TAKE CARE OF THEIR CHILDREN PROPERLY. And there AREN'T ENOUGH PEOPLE WHO WILL TAKE IN KIDS.

I personally find it amusing how so many pro-life people are so insistent on these kids being born, but won't do much to help them out themselves... :rolleyes:



You act like the fetus's rights override those of the mother. The fetus is a parasite until it's born, and until the end of the first trimester it hardly even knows what's going on.

Masturbation...yes what a thing to compare it too. What i'm saying is once the egg is fertilized it will become a baby.

Yes, i do believe the fetus's rights can override the mothers. I mean look, humans aren't developed piece by piece. Once the egg is fertilized by the sperm it creates its own genetic code. Making it totally unique, sure it doesn't have a brain yet, but it is a human. Yet not fully developed yet. If you want to compare things to eachother, let me say this. Look at autism, these kids don't always know what is happening around them, so if you want to kill them without them knowing it's okay? no, i don't believe so.

Sure again on the adoption thing. There aren't enough people, but there are babies that would be adopted and you want everyone to die because babies won't be adopted. Statistics always have outliers and people refuse to look at them. That's stupid imo, if there is a chance for the kid to grow up right, then take it, don't kill him right away because statistics say so. In fact statistics aren't even always right. Look at politics for instance, they amount of voters for kerry and bush weren't correct. People can change the statistics to see their way fit.

I never had a proper debate! I was only lamely insulted...try me?

I am pro-choice.
First, let me explain to you the correct definition of PRO-CHOICE.[QUOTE]

There's a difference between your definition and the correct definition. I'm not going to go into semantics on this one--call yourself what you like.

[QUOTE]Pro-choice means that you think abortion should be allowed. Saying you're pro-life except when there's rape is NOT pro-life. If you think someone could get an abortion for ANY REASON, you're pro-CHOICE.

...by your standards.

Ok. On with the opinion...

There are so many reasons why abortion should be legal.

Yeah... selfish reasons.

1) Rape. Forcing someone to give birth after they had no choice whatsoever in the conception is CRUEL, especially if it is a child who cannot take care of the baby and therefore had to dump it on the parents or have a messed up rest of their life. They are already scarred from the raping...why add on a baby that reminds them of their rapist? Same with older women, too. They may already have children or a husband. This will only further remind them of their victimization. Some women/girls may not even be able to have the child, which ties in with...

Answers: Killing the baby isn't going make them forget the rape.

The only difference in the case of impregnation by rape is that there are two victims, the baby and the mother, instead of one. Killing the baby doesn't solve the problem anymore than killing the mother does.

2) Death. If it is a child, there is a much greater chance of death for the mother AND the baby. Some women could also have a high risk of death in childbirth. They should not have to have a child and die for it when they can try for another. In some cases both the mother and the child can die and the birth is still tried for. Why perhaps sacrifice two lives when you could sacrifice only one?

I don't think that anyone on the pro-life side believes that one person's life is worth more than another's. If you want to try to convince me that I'm a pro-abortionist because of this so you can win your war of semantics, be my guest.

3) Disease. If the baby is going to be born with a terrible illness in which they will always live with pain, what is the point in making it live? It will most likely have a short, very unpleasant life. This can also make the mother suffer, watching her child die, when she could have it killed before it is born. This also goes with...

Answer: it sounds like you would also argue that a baby born with defects not previously known should be snuffed out as well. The problem with your argument is that you seem to presume that anyone who is not born perfect or who won't live very long doesn't have a life worth living. Well guess what? Despite what Madison Avenue has been selling to you your whole life, anyone can be perfectly happy and not be perfect. I'm sorry you don't know this, but then again, you're probably an unhappy person.

I'm also sorry that you think that it's better to kill a baby then to have to deal with it.

I suppose that if you had the chance to spend one more week with a loved one who has passed on, you would forgo the opportunity because the pain wouldn't be worth it.

4)I am NOT saying that mentally retarded persons should not be able to live.

It sounds like you are to me.

5)Contraception failure. Self-explanatory. If the condom breaks, the pill doesn't do the job, etc...it is no fault of the couple. Pure accident.

Right. And STDs aren't their fault either. This doesn't change the fact that mom is killing her baby so she selfishly doesn't have to deal with it.

Extra notes...

People say there are other solutions. One is adoption. Think of this: there is a couple, or mother, who simply CANNOT take care of a child when impregnated. Maybe she was raped and went through with the birth, etc. She plans on giving the baby up for adoption. But after basically suffering for 9 months, she looks down at the newborn baby and is simply too attached to give it away, when she obviously CANNOT take care of it.

so abortion should be legal because a mom who changes her mind would have been better off, by your elitist standards, acting on her first impuse. Good grief.


It will probably live a life of poverty.

...and lives of poverty aren't worth living, apparently. Let's put the poor out of their misery and kill them all.


And as for those who do go up for adoption, many are not adopted and have to bounce from foster home to foster home and once they are old enough to take care of themselves, are alone and live an unfulfilling life.

Almost all of them are adopted. You're either misinformed or making your facts up.

And I'm sorry you think that foster children's lives aren't worth living. We should put them all out of their misery and kill them.


Many kids up for adoption become depressed, etc. Some even end up killing themselves, you would think. So what help is adoption, really?

So never adopt!

If someone is depressed, they'd be better off having never been born? Awesome! :D :D :D :D :D Have you ever considered working a suicide hotline?

If abortion is not available, women will just perform abortions on themselves.

Your speculation is not founded. The number of abortions in the U.S., legal or illegal, were negligible prior to Roe v. Wade. If made illegal again, the occasional numbskull would still try to do it, but the occasional numbskull still tries to do it themself anyway.

How unsafe is that?

Very. That's why it was an extremely rare occurence before Roe v. Wade, it's an extremely rare occurence now, and it would be an extremely rare occurence if abortion is again outlawed.

And one question...

Some people are both pro-life and anti-welfare. I do not understand this (not sayng anyone who is pro-life is anti-welfare). If someone is FORCED to give birth, and then cannot take care of it, they are saying they do no deserve welfare? Help me on this one...one cannot hold multiple jobs when they have a baby to take care of. Daycare is EXTREMELY expensive, I knowing this because I am an aunt and my sister often tells me about this.


This shouldn't be hard to understand: because a baby is a person.


In conclusion...having abortion, just in case, makes more sense than NOT HAVING IT AT ALL.

...so better safe than sorry! This isn't "pro-choice", this is pro-abortion. You are actually, seriously encouraging people to have abortions. You're looking at people who have kids and thinking "they should have aborted that kid", or "it's possible this kid will be depressed someday... better kill it now and get it over with". Dang. Reevaluate your life.