NationStates Jolt Archive

That's MY proposal to businesses. You want a tax cut? fine. Earn it by doing the decent, honest and right thing FIRST. We don't trust you to do the decent thing. Businesses have proven themselves unethical, they get a tax cut and just line their pockets with it, and continue to outsource jobs overseas.

Screw that. My proposal says you create good, honest jobs HERE IN AMERICA...and FOR AMERICANS...then you get your tax cut. And your tax cut is based on the quality of the jobs you create, example, if you just create a bunch of McJobs that pay horseshit, then you get a horseshit tax cut. If you crerate good decent-paying jobs that someone could actually live on, then you get a better tax cut.

I'd also encourage tax cuts for businesses that promoted and used things like telecommuting and carpooling. And base their tax cut on their success in implementing such programs.

I know, such a Lefty, aren't I? Such a horrible thing for someone to demand results from a tax cut, instead of taking business at it's word, isn't it? Such a horrible, Commie viewpoint, to hold businesses accountable!

***dons Kevlar vest and waits to get reamed by the conservo-creeps on this site...***

The tax cut did produce results. In fact it averted a recession in 2001. There wasn't a recession because technically it is defined as two consecutive quarters of decline.

You also need to soften your language because at this point I think you are just a troll.

In this case, the Bush tax cut has created many good paying jobs related with adminstrative jobs.. and IT.

***dons Kevlar vest and waits to get reamed by the conservo-creeps on this site...***
Just for me it would be great if we didn't sink to this. Let them use someone's appearance as thier first criticism, let them do the word games, let them look like twelve year olds trying thier best to be a Springer audience member. This is not so much about tone, I'm fine there-it's just things like conservo-creeps and Repubican'ts. I find it childish when they do it and a little embaracing when someone I agree with does it.

But lowering taxes leaves more money for investment, which creates new business opportunities, which leads to jobs- as opposed to high taxes which create... a dependancy mentality and makes all the productive people in a society become tax exiles in Monoco. Or New Hampshire.

That's MY proposal to businesses. You want a tax cut? fine. Earn it by doing the decent, honest and right thing FIRST. We don't trust you to do the decent thing. Businesses have proven themselves unethical, they get a tax cut and just line their pockets with it, and continue to outsource jobs overseas.

Screw that. My proposal says you create good, honest jobs HERE IN AMERICA...and FOR AMERICANS...then you get your tax cut. And your tax cut is based on the quality of the jobs you create, example, if you just create a bunch of McJobs that pay horseshit, then you get a horseshit tax cut. If you crerate good decent-paying jobs that someone could actually live on, then you get a better tax cut.

I'd also encourage tax cuts for businesses that promoted and used things like telecommuting and carpooling. And base their tax cut on their success in implementing such programs.

I know, such a Lefty, aren't I? Such a horrible thing for someone to demand results from a tax cut, instead of taking business at it's word, isn't it? Such a horrible, Commie viewpoint, to hold businesses accountable!

***dons Kevlar vest and waits to get reamed by the conservo-creeps on this site...***


Thats not the only way to create jobs. You can also create jobs through government spending. For example, you say you want high paying jobs to be created, well the government can easily do that.

Suppose instead of giving a tax cut, you use the money you wouldve used for the tax cut to fund a new NASA program. Just reach into the NASA dream sheet and pick a project you are finally going to fund. By doing that, you guarantee that you just created high technology jobs. With the new program, now NASA will have to employ more engineers, scientists, managers, etc. to work on the new project. By doing that, you guaranteed that the high paying jobs you wanted to create were created, you did not have to rely on the market to decide if they want to create jobs or not.

Except that having a large proportion of jobs being public sector leads to inflation (evetually) and beuracracy (sp?).

Lyric, your moral basis is sound, but is your proposal economically viable?

The businesses must get the money from the tax cut before they can afford to create jobs. I think that a better way is to give the tax cut, then revoke it if you don't get the right results.

Except that having a large proportion of jobs being public sector leads to inflation (evetually) and beuracracy (sp?).

inflation is caused by people having too much money, it has nothing to do with whether people work in the public sector or the private sector. Beaurocracy is a sad fact of many (if not most) government agencies, but on the bright side Beaurocracy is synonymous with having way too many people involved in decision making processes, which basically means you are paying too many people, so too many people are employed...well, the goal was to employ people wasnt it?

The tax cut did produce results. In fact it averted a recession in 2001. There wasn't a recession because technically it is defined as two consecutive quarters of decline.

You also need to soften your language because at this point I think you are just a troll.

In this case, the Bush tax cut has created many good paying jobs related with adminstrative jobs.. and IT.
I'd say the tax cuts had very little to do with the recovery, which had more to do with the low interest rates that fed this little bubble of consumer debt/lack of savings that is building up.

This is what happens when you mix personal politics with economics.

But lowering taxes leaves more money for investment, which creates new business opportunities, which leads to jobs- as opposed to high taxes which create... a dependancy mentality and makes all the productive people in a society become tax exiles in Monoco. Or New Hampshire.

Sometimes. It's not quite that simple; There are economic consequences behind reducing taxes, too. For example, let's say the USA decides to slash its military budget by 5% and give everyone a tax cut. That 5% corresponds to a decrease in revenue for companies like GE and Raytheon and whoever else is behind the arms industry. As a result, the companies may see fit to downsize their workforces or be faced with having to decrease their overseas investments...or even relocate some sectors overseas- and any benefits gained by other enterprises may not match up to the losses suffered by these corporations.

Just an example. Similar situations would be seen no matter which department is getting cutbacks; be it the aformentioned defence industry, healthcare or even environmental projects. It has a snowball effect which is difficult to gauge.

I'd say the tax cuts had very little to do with the recovery, which had more to do with the low interest rates that fed this little bubble of consumer debt/lack of savings that is building up.

I think the tax cuts had a much larger part, and I think the economy is doing great today because of it.

I think the tax cuts had a much larger part, and I think the economy is doing great today because of it.

A lot of shitty jobs at Burger King and Wal-Mart don't make for a "great economy". Great for some (read: the wealthy), somewhat okay for most.

A lot of shitty jobs at Burger King and Wal-Mart don't make for a "great economy". Great for some (read: the wealthy), somewhat okay for most.
I'm the assistant manager at McDonald's, are you saying that's not prestigious?!@1

Sometimes. It's not quite that simple; There are economic consequences behind reducing taxes, too. For example, let's say the USA decides to slash its military budget by 5% and give everyone a tax cut. That 5% corresponds to a decrease in revenue for companies like GE and Raytheon and whoever else is behind the arms industry. As a result, the companies may see fit to downsize their workforces or be faced with having to decrease their overseas investments...or even relocate some sectors overseas- and any benefits gained by other enterprises may not match up to the losses suffered by these corporations.

Just an example. Similar situations would be seen no matter which department is getting cutbacks; be it the aformentioned defence industry, healthcare or even environmental projects. It has a snowball effect which is difficult to gauge.

Im glad Im not the only one who knows how to follow the money. Way too many people talk as if government spending means they are taking money and dumping it into a black hole never to be seen again. In this case, its the opposite. People act as if the money is being taken away from a giant government safe where it was just sitting there doing nothing. The reality is it has to come form somewhere.

A lot of shitty jobs at Burger King and Wal-Mart don't make for a "great economy". Great for some (read: the wealthy), somewhat okay for most.

There have been a lot of good jobs created including adminstrative jobs and IT jobs that are better paying then manufacturing. The economy is doing great and that statement will not be undermined by people who don't understand the situation as yourself.

I'm the assistant manager at McDonald's, are you saying that's not prestigious?!@1

Hahaha, thanks, man. That actually brightened my afternoon!

That's MY proposal to businesses. You want a tax cut? fine. Earn it by doing the decent, honest and right thing FIRST. We don't trust you to do the decent thing. Businesses have proven themselves unethical, they get a tax cut and just line their pockets with it, and continue to outsource jobs overseas.

Screw that. My proposal says you create good, honest jobs HERE IN AMERICA...and FOR AMERICANS...then you get your tax cut. And your tax cut is based on the quality of the jobs you create, example, if you just create a bunch of McJobs that pay horseshit, then you get a horseshit tax cut. If you crerate good decent-paying jobs that someone could actually live on, then you get a better tax cut.

I'd also encourage tax cuts for businesses that promoted and used things like telecommuting and carpooling. And base their tax cut on their success in implementing such programs.

I know, such a Lefty, aren't I? Such a horrible thing for someone to demand results from a tax cut, instead of taking business at it's word, isn't it? Such a horrible, Commie viewpoint, to hold businesses accountable!

***dons Kevlar vest and waits to get reamed by the conservo-creeps on this site...***



....I agree with Lyric? *faints*

There have been a lot of good jobs created including adminstrative jobs and IT jobs that are better paying then manufacturing. The economy is doing great and that statement will not be undermined by people who don't understand the situation as yourself.

Yeah, as if losing fuck-all manufacturing jobs is a good thing...

:rolleyes:

....I agree with Lyric? *faints*
Uh-oh, you're going straight to hell now.

Yeah, as if losing fuck-all manufacturing jobs is a good thing...

:rolleyes:

You need to start reading the facts..

Outsourcing has had a lot of negative press coverage, but let's face it, if someone out there can do your job to the same standards, for a tenth of the pay, then they deserve to have it. Don't like it - communist.

So China makes 99% of the world's zips, and hardly anyone outside SE Asia makes PCBs and ICs any more. At least you get cheap jeans and iPods.

Yeah, part of me does find the idea of self-sufficiency attractive, but we kissed it goodbye the moment we went for globalisation. Now we're all inter-connected, now it's all about niche industries. Frankly it's a bit late for all the conservatives and 'patriots' to discover the downside of globalisation, they sneered at the left when it was being formulated, now they can get with the program like everyone else has had to do.

Businesses have proven themselves unethical,

There are over 25 million (http://www.bizstats.com/businesses.htm) businesses in the USA.

Let's see some proof that a majority of these, or even a large chunk, are unethical.

Otherwise, it's just another generalization that demonizes the 'enemy,' and deserving of no further comment.

Hey I am a "conservative" and a "patriot" and I support globalization (says the guy in a service economy whose job can never be outsourced no matter what).

There have been a lot of good jobs created including adminstrative jobs and IT jobs that are better paying then manufacturing. The economy is doing great and that statement will not be undermined by people who don't understand the situation as yourself.

IT jobs are not getting created that much. There is a glut of people looking for work.

There will be another wave of IT job loss in the future.

Especially with high speed networking and cheap labor in China.

Skilled IT onsite is going to decline......

IT jobs are not getting created that much. There is a glut of people looking for work.

There will be another wave of IT job loss in the future.

Especially with high speed networking and cheap labor in China.

Skilled IT onsite is going to decline......

Not so the case, when it is in fact the US that has better trained IT professionals. China is going to face an economic recession pretty soon (and I've shown this in other threads.. by 2040, 30% of China's population will be over 60).

A lot of shitty jobs at Burger King and Wal-Mart don't make for a "great economy"

Yeah, I guess if you're not defining an economy in economic terms, you can get out of it what you want eh?

So many people seem to think non-economic variables like, how "shitty" the job is, count in economics more than little things like employment. Give me a job at Burger King over unemployment any day. ANY DAY.

Yeah, as if losing fuck-all manufacturing jobs is a good thing...

:rolleyes:

Here's what manufacturing gained in the last employment report:

Computer/Electronic Equipment: +3,200
Machinery: +3,800
Fabricated Metals:+2,900

Almost all of the manufacturing jobs gained were in high-tech, and all of them lost in textiles and automotive.

Furthermore, over 50% of the jobs created were in financial activities, professional services (with 6,200 in Technical Support, 9,000 in Administrative, 5,200 in Engineering/Architecture, 2,200 in Computer Systems Design), education/healthcare, and over 50,000 in retail. All of these pay more than the manufacturing that lost jobs.

Lastly, the number of "McDonalds" jobs has fallen by 318,000 since July 2004 and yet payroll employment is growing faster and the unemployment lower by 1%. The "true" unemployment has fallen from 9.8 to 8.9%, with declines of all types of unemployment. The population-employment ration and participation rate are moving up again, and real earnings are growing:

The average hourly wage for computer manufacturing workers is up 7.0% in the past year, and the manufacturing sectors expanding pay more than the ones contracting.

Wage growth is highest in the higher-paying service sectors and slowest in leisure/hospitality (McDonald's again).

Outsourcing has had a lot of negative press coverage, but let's face it, if someone out there can do your job to the same standards, for a tenth of the pay, then they deserve to have it. Don't like it - communist.

Part of high salaries is the fact that cost of living goes up in the area.

It's ok to send jobs to where they are cheaper. However, we need to legislate and prevent the obscene salaries by corporate executives. Especially with the concept of the golden parachute. You shouldn't be rewarded for screwing up. I remember one ceo was a screwup. Drove the company into the ground and left the company to "pursue other interests" with a nice 20 million pay out.

The cheap labor movement is simply an effort to eliminate or greatly reduce the middle class.

IT jobs are not getting created that much. There is a glut of people looking for work.

There will be another wave of IT job loss in the future.

Especially with high speed networking and cheap labor in China.

Skilled IT onsite is going to decline......

Yup, IT jobs are hard to come by because so many people lost their jobs after the internet bubble burst.

It is slowly getting better, but if you are new in the industry you better be willing to do helpdesk work (which is slowly going away as it gets outsourced to India).

People don't know what outsourcing is... it creates more jobs back at home and brings in far more money back at home.

Not so the case, when it is in fact the US that has better trained IT professionals. China is going to face an economic recession pretty soon (and I've shown this in other threads.. by 2040, 30% of China's population will be over 60).



I disagree with you about the China-recession thing, but I pray you're right. :(

People don't know what outsourcing is... it creates more jobs back at home and brings in far more money back at home.

While we're on this, why does the economic left so constantly harp on how evil outsourcing is?

What's the opposite of outsourcing? Trade protectionism, nationalism -> all the way to FASCISM.

But oh no, it's the economic conservatives who are always painted as "fascists."

IT jobs are not getting created that much. There is a glut of people looking for work.
There will be another wave of IT job loss in the future.

Especially with high speed networking and cheap labor in China.
Skilled IT onsite is going to decline......

Not true; IT unemployment has fallen to 3.7% from 4.7% in 2004 and from its peak of 5.6% in 2003. The sector is growing, and wages are back to their levels in 1999. In fact, April 2005 was the best month for IT hiring since December 2000, with 12,000 jobs.

Furthermore, the market is taking off as new technologies become mature and broadband becomes more common and cheaper. Every sector of the tech economy is recovering, and hiring is picking up in the US. The revival of startups is driving new hiring, and companies like Yahoo and Google, and even Microsoft, are loading up their US payrolls. In 2004, the number of unemployed in the nine biggest tech sectors fell by 64,000, and the number of job postings on Dice.com (a major tech hiring site) rose by 26% to 69,957.

I disagree with you about the China-recession thing, but I pray you're right. :(

Well I am right because 300 million Chinese will be over 60... how will they support them? Their economy will be in serious trouble.

Well I am right because 300 million Chinese will be over 60... how will they support them? Their economy will be in serious trouble.



Don't forget: This is Red China we're talking about. They'd sooner force their elderly to work than go into a recession.

Not true; IT unemployment has fallen to 3.7% from 4.7% in 2004 and from its peak of 5.6% in 2003. The sector is growing, and wages are back to their levels in 1999. In fact, April 2005 was the best month for IT hiring since December 2000, with 12,000 jobs.

Furthermore, the market is taking off as new technologies become mature and broadband becomes more common and cheaper. Every sector of the tech economy is recovering, and hiring is picking up in the US. The revival of startups is driving new hiring, and companies like Yahoo and Google, and even Microsoft, are loading up their US payrolls. In 2004, the number of unemployed in the nine biggest tech sectors fell by 64,000, and the number of job postings on Dice.com (a major tech hiring site) rose by 26% to 69,957.

Yeah, the people who had lost their jobs after the internet bubble burst are finding employment in the field again. Pretty much what has already been said.

Don't forget: This is Red China we're talking about. They'd sooner force their elderly to work than go into a recession.

I mean no insult to anyone over 60..

Their elderly will be less productive then people in their 20s, 30s and 40s. China will face a serious crisis.

In Americe, first you get the tax cuts, then you get the job creation, then you get the women.

I mean no insult to anyone over 60..

Their elderly will be less productive then people in their 20s, 30s and 40s. China will face a serious crisis.



I predict a lift on the regulation of one-baby-per-couple soon.

I predict a lift on the regulation of one-baby-per-couple soon.

Not if they want to have civil unrest for overpopulation....

Well I am right because 300 million Chinese will be over 60... how will they support them? Their economy will be in serious trouble.

Well, let's take a look at some statistics. These are from the CIA world factbook:

Data for the USA:
0-14 years: 20.6% (male 31,095,725/female 29,703,997)
15-64 years: 67% (male 98,914,382/female 99,324,126)
65 years and over: 12.4% (male 15,298,676/female 21,397,228) (2005 est.)
Median age: 36.27 years

Data for China:
0-14 years: 21.4% (male 148,134,928/female 131,045,415)
15-64 years: 71% (male 477,182,072/female 450,664,933)
65 years and over: 7.6% (male 47,400,282/female 51,886,182) (2005 est.)
Median age: 32.26 years

So, actually under your theory it looks like the US will be in a heck of a lot more trouble than China. Heck, the US already has nearly the double the amount of people over 65 than China does.

Don't forget: This is Red China we're talking about. They'd sooner force their elderly to work than go into a recession.

Yes, but the main problem isn't even that; there won't be enough people to replace them. The Chinese population is only growing at 0.58% a year, or
7,576,620 people a year, with emigration also slowing growth. Add that to their growing man-woman imbalance and they will slow to nongrowth. Furthermore, their agricultural sector is getting strained, so growth might turn negative in the even of a food shortage.

The US has growth of 2,720,754 organically plus another 680,000 or so from (legal) immigration. Plus, we have more women than men, so population growth will maintain itself or accelerate. We could catch up with China if these rates persist.

LOL, although the label sticks, it is absurd to continue to call China 'communist'. They're doing pretty damn well at our game, and before any collapse, will beat quite a few of us.

China is communist in name only. It is a domestic political convenience, a necessity even, to perpetuate apparent political continuity. But it is no longer economically communist. Not when it's buying a US oil company and immersing itself into the electronic currency and securities markets.

Any loss of manufacturing jobs is the fault of the big unions, who made the cost of anufacturing so prohibitively (sp?) expensive that it was worth it for CEOs to risk the adverse political and public relations blowback just to get things manufactured at a reasonable price and they could still make a profit- which is why anyone is in business (as you may have noticed the last time your boss gave you a hug instead of a paycheck).

Yeah, the people who had lost their jobs after the internet bubble burst are finding employment in the field again. Pretty much what has already been said.

Well, not necessarily. There are people who can't get new jobs, not because of a weak market, but because their skills are outdated. A degree from 1996 is just not as competitive in modern IT as one from 2004, so that will skewer some of the unemployment data.

Lyric, your moral basis is sound, but is your proposal economically viable?

The businesses must get the money from the tax cut before they can afford to create jobs. I think that a better way is to give the tax cut, then revoke it if you don't get the right results.

It is economically viable. they have the money. The stingy bastards just refuse to let go of it is all. Bout damn time some of the money went to workers instead of fat-assed lazy white-collar pieces of shit that never knew a day of hard work in their life! Screw the white collar people, let THEM take it on the chin for once, we don't trust them to do the RIGHT thing anymore. they have proven they are not trustworthy.

So I say, you want a tax cut so you can create jobs?? fine. Create the jobs, THEN I'll give you the tax cut. You PRODUCE RESULTS FIRST...THEN you get rewarded. What's wrong with that?

Not if they want to have civil unrest for overpopulation....



With the current population being so...well...ancient (poor Eutresca and Celtund :D ), they can afford more births with all the deaths they will have coming. Their goal will probably be a shift in the demographics from older to younger, kind of like most developing countries.

LOL, although the label sticks, it is absurd to continue to call China 'communist'. They're doing pretty damn well at our game, and before any collapse, will beat quite a few of us.

China is communist in name only. It is a domestic political convenience, a necessity even, to perpetuate apparent political continuity. But it is no longer economically communist. Not when it's buying a US oil company and immersing itself into the electronic currency and securities markets.

True, they're more totalitarian and evil than communist nwadays, strictly speaking.

They still ahve a command economy (more or less), which makes them "communists" for purposes of this conversation.

I'm the assistant manager at McDonald's, are you saying that's not prestigious?!@1


Well, if that is as high as you have set your sights....

So, actually under your theory it looks like the US will be in a heck of a lot more trouble than China. Heck, the US already has nearly the double the amount of people over 65 than China does.

No. You are misstating the facts. The US has a better outlook. Nor do you know my theory.

http://www.columbia.edu/~bcp26/web-pages/problems.html

http://www.columbia.edu/~bcp26/web-graphics/ch_all2.gif

By 2050, there will be many more retired people to support than there will be people to work and support them. Additionally, Gabe T. Wang emphasizes that “While in developed countries aging occurs after their economy is already highly developed, China’s aging will take place before the economy has become well developed” (Wang 194). This means that the economic infrastructure necessary to care for the growing aging population has not yet been implemented.

With the current population being so...well...ancient (poor Eutresca and Celtund :D ), they can afford more births with all the deaths they will have coming. Their goal will probably be a shift in the demographics from older to younger, kind of like most developing countries.

Actually, the statistics I just showed you, which you can look up in the cia world factbook if you dont trust my figures (copied directly from there), show taht the US has almost twice as many people over 65 as China does when looked at as a percentage. Also, China has more people under 15 than the US does (both as percentage and in raw number) and of course more people in the 15-65 category as well. They have 1 birth per 1000 people less than the US which is a good thing cus they need to slow down their population growth.

Well, not necessarily. There are people who can't get new jobs, not because of a weak market, but because their skills are outdated. A degree from 1996 is just not as competitive in modern IT as one from 2004, so that will skewer some of the unemployment data.



Yeah, the quantity of skilled individuals seeking employment is at one of it's lowest rates ever, or so I heard on the radio. Companies would love to hire, but they just can't find decent candidates. Of course, that is to be expected in the computer industry, where you can go from essential to obsolete in the blink of the eye.


Edit: How ironic that you mention IT. My dad was unemployed for a long time after being laid off as a senior manager for his IT deparment, mainly because the training he received in IT was back during the early 90's. It was really rough finding a job, he had to rely on managerial skills alone in finding a job until he got up-to-date on the current stuff.

....I agree with Lyric? *faints*


Oh, dear Christ, someone check the temperature in HELL!!!

It is economically viable. they have the money. The stingy bastards just refuse to let go of it is all. Bout damn time some of the money went to workers instead of fat-assed lazy white-collar pieces of shit that never knew a day of hard work in their life! Screw the white collar people, let THEM take it on the chin for once, we don't trust them to do the RIGHT thing anymore. they have proven they are not trustworthy.

So I say, you want a tax cut so you can create jobs?? fine. Create the jobs, THEN I'll give you the tax cut. You PRODUCE RESULTS FIRST...THEN you get rewarded. What's wrong with that?

It's the white collar people that keep the blue collar in business. They run the factories, finance the ventures, and program the computers. Without skilled and educated labor, there would be no economy. White collar work is the future of the economy; that's why high tech manufacturing and programming do so well while steel and automotive decline.

The white collar worker spends more and drives the economy more, so tax cuts have a bigger effect when given to the middle class. That's what Clinton's Tax Act did in 1993, it cut taxes on the middle class. That led to the strong job growth of the early and mid 90's.

Yeah, the quantity of skilled individuals seeking employment is at one of it's lowest rates ever, or so I heard on the radio. Companies would love to hire, but they just can't find decent candidates. Of course, that is to be expected in the computer industry, where you can go from essential to obsolete in the blink of the eye.

That's why there is such a pick-up in wage growth even though unemployment is still around 5.0%; the qualified worker pool is running out.

No. You are misstating the facts. The US has a better outlook. Nor do you know my theory.

http://www.columbia.edu/~bcp26/web-pages/problems.html

http://www.columbia.edu/~bcp26/web-graphics/ch_all2.gif

By 2050, there will be many more retired people to support than there will be people to work and support them. Additionally, Gabe T. Wang emphasizes that “While in developed countries aging occurs after their economy is already highly developed, China’s aging will take place before the economy has become well developed” (Wang 194). This means that the economic infrastructure necessary to care for the growing aging population has not yet been implemented.

What makes you think China cares about old people?

At the moment all it cares about is young people and that's only in the purest economic sense.

What makes you think China cares about old people?

It'll have to when their economy slides into recession..

It is economically viable. they have the money. The stingy bastards just refuse to let go of it is all. Bout damn time some of the money went to workers instead of fat-assed lazy white-collar pieces of shit that never knew a day of hard work in their life! Screw the white collar people, let THEM take it on the chin for once, we don't trust them to do the RIGHT thing anymore. they have proven they are not trustworthy.

So I say, you want a tax cut so you can create jobs?? fine. Create the jobs, THEN I'll give you the tax cut. You PRODUCE RESULTS FIRST...THEN you get rewarded. What's wrong with that?
This post shows a complete and total misunderstanding of how an economy works. Besides the fact that these people do actually do work, use their skills to manage and operate a company (not an easy feat, mind you) and such. Sure, they don't do physical labor, but there is far more to driving an economy than physical labor, planning, organization, accounting, dozens of other things have to be accounted for, and these "fat assed lazy white collar pieces of shit" do these vital jobs. To top it off they also risk their money by investing in the company, and if the company fails, then they lose that money.

Cut the class-warfare bullshit and get with the real world.

This post shows a complete and total misunderstanding of how an economy works. Besides the fact that these people do actually do work, use their skills to manage and operate a company (not an easy feat, mind you) and such. Sure, they don't do physical labor, but there is far more to driving an economy than physical labor, planning, organization, accounting, dozens of other things have to be accounted for, and these "fat assed lazy white collar pieces of shit" do these vital jobs. To top it off they also risk their money by investing in the company, and if the company fails, then they lose that money.

Cut the class-warfare bullshit and get with the real world.



Hmm, you do have a point. Many managerial positions are filled with individuals who spent decades in the company as a blue-collar worker. Just the way it should be.

Yeah, I guess if you're not defining an economy in economic terms, you can get out of it what you want eh?

So many people seem to think non-economic variables like, how "shitty" the job is, count in economics more than little things like employment. Give me a job at Burger King over unemployment any day. ANY DAY.


It's a shitty job, becvause the pay is shitty. no one can support themselves on what Burger King pays, even if you work 40 hours a week.

THAT is the definition of a shitty job.

If they paid a decent, living wage, I'd have no problem flippin' burgers at BK if that was what I had to do to survive.

But to be working at a job like that, and not even be making enough to survive? Fuck that, I don't even get out of BED for less than eight bucks an hour, and I can tell you, for eight bucks an hour, an employer ain't getting my best effort, either.

Fuck that....they want my best effort, then they ought to give forth THEIR best effort in my paycheck.

This post shows a complete and total misunderstanding of how an economy works. Besides the fact that these people do actually do work, use their skills to manage and operate a company (not an easy feat, mind you) and such. Sure, they don't do physical labor, but there is far more to driving an economy than physical labor, planning, organization, accounting, dozens of other things have to be accounted for, and these "fat assed lazy white collar pieces of shit" do these vital jobs. To top it off they also risk their money by investing in the company, and if the company fails, then they lose that money.

Cut the class-warfare bullshit and get with the real world.

heh. its sad to admit, since I am a communist, but I do have to agree with you. Its often the white collar workers who end up putting in 80 hour weeks and not having a weekend off for months. The blue collar worker protests if he is made to work any more than his usual amount (although they get overtime anyway, while the white collar worker doesnt).

People don't know what outsourcing is... it creates more jobs back at home and brings in far more money back at home.


How? And cite RELIABLE SOURCES, please. Don't just pull figures outta thin air. I want to see you make this argument, because I don't think you can.

You're just repreating the mind-drivel pumped out by right-wing talk radio.;

It's a shitty job, becvause the pay is shitty. no one can support themselves on what Burger King pays, even if you work 40 hours a week.

THAT is the definition of a shitty job.

If they paid a decent, living wage, I'd have no problem flippin' burgers at BK if that was what I had to do to survive.

But to be working at a job like that, and not even be making enough to survive? Fuck that, I don't even get out of BED for less than eight bucks an hour, and I can tell you, for eight bucks an hour, an employer ain't getting my best effort, either.

Fuck that....they want my best effort, then they ought to give forth THEIR best effort in my paycheck.

You really need to get over your delusions and get with reality. You have little understanding of how an economy works, and these white collar people are the driving force behind the economy. Many of my friends work in those fast food jobs for money to go for college. You need to cut the class welfare crap as what was said. Afterall those jobs are considered mainly for us college students and we move onto other better paying jobs. Carlos Mencia put it right.. you are most likely a deadbeat if you are 40 and still working in McDonalds or Walmart.

How? And cite RELIABLE SOURCES, please. Don't just pull figures outta thin air. I want to see you make this argument, because I don't think you can.

You're just repreating the mind-drivel pumped out by right-wing talk radio.;

You don't know shit.

I'm sorry but I have cited plenty of reliable sources and you have not. You don't even bother. You continue moaning and complaining about how you have it bad.. and how that is indicative of the entire US. Well come back to the real world, and realize that is not the case.

I'm not even conservative. I'm libertarian.

It's a shitty job, becvause the pay is shitty. no one can support themselves on what Burger King pays, even if you work 40 hours a week.

THAT is the definition of a shitty job.

If they paid a decent, living wage, I'd have no problem flippin' burgers at BK if that was what I had to do to survive.
But to be working at a job like that, and not even be making enough to survive? Fuck that, I don't even get out of BED for less than eight bucks an hour, and I can tell you, for eight bucks an hour, an employer ain't getting my best effort, either.
Fuck that....they want my best effort, then they ought to give forth THEIR best effort in my paycheck.

Those jobs require no skill, no education, and have limited productivity. Thus, they aren't going to pay very well because they don't generate a lot in return. You have to remember that a company hires you because you can provide something of value, and they pay you money to entice you to work for them. McDonald's jobs provide little of value, and there is plenty of supply, so wages aren't going to be high because they can hire some 16 year old to do the same kind of work. Wages hinge on qualification and demand, not some altruistic desire to help others.

If you're not willing to put in the effort unless you get more money, companies aren't going to hire you, especially in a field as oversupplied as the McDonald's job sector. Companies only choose to pay more when they have to compete for your labor.

Hmm, you do have a point. Many managerial positions are filled with individuals who spent decades in the company as a blue-collar worker. Just the way it should be.
Aye, my Grandfather retired as one of those oh-so-evil Vice Presidents of manufacturing from a company, yet he started out as a mechanical engineer, often dealing with stuff on the factory floor.

Aye, my Grandfather retired as one of those oh-so-evil Vice Presidents of manufacturing from a company, yet he started out as a mechanical engineer, often dealing with stuff on the factory floor.

Andrew Carnegie started his career as a hotel bellboy and son of poor immigrant parents and became one of the biggest steel barons ever.

Outsourcing is the process of shifting work out of the country into a cheaper environment. Why would that make more jobs in the nation the compay is run from?

It's a shitty job, becvause the pay is shitty. no one can support themselves on what Burger King pays, even if you work 40 hours a week.

THAT is the definition of a shitty job.

If they paid a decent, living wage, I'd have no problem flippin' burgers at BK if that was what I had to do to survive.

But to be working at a job like that, and not even be making enough to survive? Fuck that, I don't even get out of BED for less than eight bucks an hour, and I can tell you, for eight bucks an hour, an employer ain't getting my best effort, either.

So that begs the question, why does anyone work there at all? There's an easy answer if Burger King's wages aren't good enough. Don't work there. The company can't afford to lose employees. But instead people work there anyway instead of improving their own skills and finding a better employer. In my mind, if people don't like it, but they work there anyway, they are as bad as people who supported the Nazis without really believing the idealogy.

Beyond that, creating jobs isn't so much of an individual decision that a CEO makes or something, but an institutional decision. There are far more people involved in hiring someone than you would think. There's of course the department where the initial job opening occurs, there's the accountants, there's human resources, there's a whole lot that goes into hiring someone. Hell, one of the questions often involved in hiring someone include infrastructure, if there's room to put someone somewhere once they're hired. Sometimes companies just don't have enough room without expanding, which is a whole other cost to hiring.

Outsourcing is the process of shifting work out of the country into a cheaper environment. Why would that make more jobs in the nation the compay is run from?

Again the lack of understanding. Outsourcing allows the creation of better paying adminstration jobs back at home... it also brings back more money back to home and allow the creation of better paying jobs. This has already been shown by recent job reports. Outsourcing has a 3-1 advantage in favor of job creation.

Again the lack of understanding. Outsourcing allows the creation of better paying adminstration jobs back at home... it also brings back more money back to home and allow the creation of better paying jobs. This has already been shown by recent job reports. Outsourcing has a 3-1 advantage in favor of job creation.

Then surely that is counterproductive to the company. I want reliable links for this, because quite franklyI have never seen any report of companies outsourcing to increase the number of emloyees in their native country.

Bizzarely enough American outsourcing figures include jobs outsourced to different states.

I know, you might not believe me, but when the Hoover Company was closing up its local business administrative office, it was shipping the local jobs to the Maytag headquarters in Iowa. The jobs lost were counted as "outsourcing."

My dad would have lost his job, but he jumped ship to another company beforehand.

It is economically viable. they have the money. The stingy bastards just refuse to let go of it is all. Bout damn time some of the money went to workers instead of fat-assed lazy white-collar pieces of shit that never knew a day of hard work in their life! Screw the white collar people, let THEM take it on the chin for once, we don't trust them to do the RIGHT thing anymore. they have proven they are not trustworthy.

So I say, you want a tax cut so you can create jobs?? fine. Create the jobs, THEN I'll give you the tax cut. You PRODUCE RESULTS FIRST...THEN you get rewarded. What's wrong with that?

This is incredibly childish and stupid. You've obviously never had a white-collar job and I'm guessing you are 17 and work part-time at Starbucks and consider yourself part of the proletariat.

But all of that aside: What about the jobs that owners and managers already created? Don't they get any credit for those?

Then surely that is counterproductive to the company. I want reliable links for this, because quite franklyI have never seen any report of companies outsourcing to increase the number of emloyees in their native country.

No. It is not counterproductive. It increases profits. Here are some links to back up my case:

http://sify.com/finance/newspread/fullstory.php?id=13662407

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/invest/extra/P79592.asp

This is incredibly childish and stupid. You've obviously never had a white-collar job and I'm guessing you are 17 and work part-time at Starbucks and consider yourself part of the proletariat.

But all of that aside: What about the jobs that owners and managers already created? Don't they get any credit for those?

No, he's an adult and he lives with his mom.

USA blows goats for bus fare...

... and then doesn't take the bus.

Havent you noticed, that the internet is an INTERNATIONAL thing? I.E. That means there are people who arent quote "AMERICANS" online?

I could care less what happens to America. Any country that votes in the likes of George W. Bush after seeing the first four years of dismal economic, international relations, military, and cronyism deserves everything it gets.

Maybe that'll teach ya:

"We can be mice who elect cats to run our country, or we can be cats who elect mice. You choose"

- famous Canadian

USA blows goats for bus fare...

... and then doesn't take the bus.

Havent you noticed, that the internet is an INTERNATIONAL thing? I.E. That means there are people who arent quote "AMERICANS" online?

I could care less what happens to America.
So why are you reading this thread then?

That's MY proposal to businesses. You want a tax cut? fine. Earn it by doing the decent, honest and right thing FIRST. We don't trust you to do the decent thing. Businesses have proven themselves unethical, they get a tax cut and just line their pockets with it, and continue to outsource jobs overseas.

Screw that. My proposal says you create good, honest jobs HERE IN AMERICA...and FOR AMERICANS...then you get your tax cut. And your tax cut is based on the quality of the jobs you create, example, if you just create a bunch of McJobs that pay horseshit, then you get a horseshit tax cut. If you crerate good decent-paying jobs that someone could actually live on, then you get a better tax cut.

I'd also encourage tax cuts for businesses that promoted and used things like telecommuting and carpooling. And base their tax cut on their success in implementing such programs.

I know, such a Lefty, aren't I? Such a horrible thing for someone to demand results from a tax cut, instead of taking business at it's word, isn't it? Such a horrible, Commie viewpoint, to hold businesses accountable!

***dons Kevlar vest and waits to get reamed by the conservo-creeps on this site...***
Why should I or any other (fiscal) conservative ream you out for that plan? I think it is a good one. It is performanced based rather than wishful thinking. Since taxes are levied a year behind anyway, a tax credit offered today doesn't help you untill next year. So why not tie it to performance? Cities do it all the time to attract new industry - giving a 5-10 year TIFF for opening a new plant/employing local people? Why shouldn't federal tax breaks be tied to performance?

So no, your proposal is not Lefty at all. If anything it's (modern) competitive capitalisim. Perform, get rewarded. Underperform, fail.

No, he's an adult and he lives with his mom.



Hey! My archnemesis is a she, not a he!

Hey! My archnemesis is a she, not a he!

How am I supposed to know the gender of everyone in here lol?

So why are you reading this thread then?



I wish I could deliver an electrical shock to keyboards of people like that :D

People don't know what outsourcing is... it creates more jobs back at home and brings in far more money back at home.

Ahhh Republican are we?


Ok what new jobs are created?

We set up 50 Software Engineer jobs in India and we had 2 new finance jobs. We had to have them anyway as one was for Sorbaines and the other was revenue related.

I have spoke to others in other industries and they report similar arrangements. Dozens sent over seas and a couple created locally.

I disagree with you about the China-recession thing, but I pray you're right. :(

:eek: I agree with Neo.

Right now parts of China have manditory English training going on. They are cheaper then India so the help desks will probably move again.

Don't see their economy going down anytime soon.....

Again the lack of understanding. Outsourcing allows the creation of better paying adminstration jobs back at home... it also brings back more money back to home and allow the creation of better paying jobs. This has already been shown by recent job reports. Outsourcing has a 3-1 advantage in favor of job creation.


Back up your claim. SOURCE IT...from a RELIABLE SOURCE. don't just pull numbers out of thin air and expect anyone to believe them just because you say so.

This is incredibly childish and stupid. You've obviously never had a white-collar job and I'm guessing you are 17 and work part-time at Starbucks and consider yourself part of the proletariat.

But all of that aside: What about the jobs that owners and managers already created? Don't they get any credit for those?

No. I am 34, a clerical worker, and unemployed and under-employed, and temped for the last year and a half, thank you. And I do consider myself part of the proletariat, bet your ass I do. These white-collar bastards wipe the sweat off my ass and my brow, never do any hard work themselves, and make 500 times what I do.

And no, they DON'T get credit for making shitty McJobs that don't pay a decent, living wage. And they haven't created a job FOR ME, yet...so no, they don't get credit.

No, he's an adult and he lives with his mom.


SHE. And she lives with her mom after ten years out on her own, thank you very much!! I only had to move back home because the economy is so goddam shitty.

No. I am 34, a clerical worker, and unemployed and under-employed, and temped for the last year and a half, thank you. And I do consider myself part of the proletariat, bet your ass I do. These white-collar bastards wipe the sweat off my ass and my brow, never do any hard work themselves, and make 500 times what I do.

And no, they DON'T get credit for making shitty McJobs that don't pay a decent, living wage. And they haven't created a job FOR ME, yet...so no, they don't get credit.



I thought you were a data-inputer (the real term is on the tip of my tongue, but I can't seem to remember it)?

Screw that. My proposal says you create good, honest jobs HERE IN AMERICA...and FOR AMERICANS...then you get your tax cut. Why, because other people aren't good enough for these jobs? Because Americans have a special deed for these jobs that belongs to no one else, certainly not 'some foreigner' who might be able to do it better and cheaper?

IF there is one thing the Democrats are hopping on the bandwagon with that is really pissing me off, it is this xenophobic 'fair trade' stuff. It does nothing but harm just about everyone in the long run, especially those nations whom the employment would have gone to who have been left with nothing.

Not true; IT unemployment has fallen to 3.7% from 4.7% in 2004 and from its peak of 5.6% in 2003. The sector is growing, and wages are back to their levels in 1999. In fact, April 2005 was the best month for IT hiring since December 2000, with 12,000 jobs.

Furthermore, the market is taking off as new technologies become mature and broadband becomes more common and cheaper. Every sector of the tech economy is recovering, and hiring is picking up in the US. The revival of startups is driving new hiring, and companies like Yahoo and Google, and even Microsoft, are loading up their US payrolls. In 2004, the number of unemployed in the nine biggest tech sectors fell by 64,000, and the number of job postings on Dice.com (a major tech hiring site) rose by 26% to 69,957.

Meh. Dice is going to prop up numbers as their business depends on it.

What IT job creation I have seen is low level entry positions.

Startups don't always mean IT jobs. Those come much latter as they usually don't spend the money for awhile. For example, the company I was at didn't bring in an IT guy till about 3 years.

The next wave of job losses will be the system administrators.

After High speed networking is pretty well established, you can get cheap labor from India or China to WEBEX into a problem computer and sort it out.

Onsite skill requirement will be greatly reduced.

Hell without automatted installation, a monkey can do the job.

Microsofts hiring isn't really IT related. They are boning up with software licensing "help" they are basically going to start enforcing licensing throughout the industry.

We have one of their buldings going up locally. It's about 300 people of which oh about 280 are going to help us with our licensing.

One way I gage hiring is when I get the headhunters calling again. When times are great, they are naging me all the time. When times are bad, they call only so often.

The nag factor isn't up their yet. ;)

Why, because other people aren't good enough for these jobs? Because Americans have a special deed for these jobs that belongs to no one else, certainly not 'some foreigner' who might be able to do it better and cheaper?

IF there is one thing the Democrats are hopping on the bandwagon with that is really pissing me off, it is this xenophobic 'fair trade' stuff. It does nothing but harm just about everyone in the long run, especially those nations whom the employment would have gone to who have been left with nothing.



What about our workers? It's a noble thing to care for the workers of other countries, but at the expense of ours?

USA blows goats for bus fare...

... and then doesn't take the bus.

Havent you noticed, that the internet is an INTERNATIONAL thing? I.E. That means there are people who arent quote "AMERICANS" online?

I could care less what happens to America. Any country that votes in the likes of George W. Bush after seeing the first four years of dismal economic, international relations, military, and cronyism deserves everything it gets.

Maybe that'll teach ya:

"We can be mice who elect cats to run our country, or we can be cats who elect mice. You choose"



- famous Canadian

In case you didn't notice, a hell of a lot of Americans DIDN'T vote for Bush. i'm one of them. I fucking hate his ass, I'd sooner vote for SATAN.

And, besides, it don't matter how much I or people like me voted...when you control the voting machines, and the voting tabulation machines, with crony companies that are big Republican Party contributors...and those companies refuse to provide a paper audit trail, and refuse to allow independent scrutiny of their source code...well, of course Bush won, because that is the outcome the companies in charge wanted to produce.

And no paper trail to prove the malfeasance, assuming there was any...and I believe there was...unfortunately, we'll never be able to prove it...which is, of course, the whole point of no paper trails.

You can't mean to tell me that Diebold, the number-one maker of ATM's that have provided paper receipts for 20 years can't produce a voting machine that produces a paper reciept, and expect me to believe that?? there's a REASON they don't want paper....

Why should I or any other (fiscal) conservative ream you out for that plan? I think it is a good one. It is performanced based rather than wishful thinking. Since taxes are levied a year behind anyway, a tax credit offered today doesn't help you untill next year. So why not tie it to performance? Cities do it all the time to attract new industry - giving a 5-10 year TIFF for opening a new plant/employing local people? Why shouldn't federal tax breaks be tied to performance?

So no, your proposal is not Lefty at all. If anything it's (modern) competitive capitalisim. Perform, get rewarded. Underperform, fail.


Can't believe a conservative would AGREE with me on this. I thought personal responsibility and accountability was only for EVERYONE ELSE....

One of the supposed benefits of the tax cuts is to create jobs.

The businesses are more likely to open up new projects that provides jobs, as the required return on the projects is lower. Businesses will also begin to have increased production due to an increase in consumer demand.

How am I supposed to know the gender of everyone in here lol?


The Socialist QUEENDOM of Lyric shoulda gave you a hint.

I thought you were a data-inputer (the real term is on the tip of my tongue, but I can't seem to remember it)?

Data entry clerk, yes. That is what I have basically done for the last five years. such jobs are considered "clerical."

To top it off they also risk their money by investing in the company, and if the company fails, then they lose that money.

Cut the class-warfare bullshit and get with the real world.

That's bullshit. I have never seen a vp, president, or ceo loose their standard of living loosing a job.

Even with Enron, the first guys paid off with what little money remained were the execs.

As to investing. Many companies still give out "loans" to purchase shares.

Sorry but if you are a VP+ you are rewarded for failure.

What about our workers? It's a noble thing to care for the workers of other countries, but at the expense of ours?

The market is constantly in a state of flux. I get that people want to have jobs and are concerned when they lose theirs, but creating an artificial barrier- such as has been done with agriculture in Europe and the US- does nothing but harm to other countries and to their own countries in the longer run. It usually takes a while of adjustment, but most people will find other jobs.

Why, because other people aren't good enough for these jobs? Because Americans have a special deed for these jobs that belongs to no one else, certainly not 'some foreigner' who might be able to do it better and cheaper?

IF there is one thing the Democrats are hopping on the bandwagon with that is really pissing me off, it is this xenophobic 'fair trade' stuff. It does nothing but harm just about everyone in the long run, especially those nations whom the employment would have gone to who have been left with nothing.

This is probably gonna piss off a lot of people on an international forum, but too damn bad. I'm an AMERICAN...AMERICA FIRST, everyone else second!

This is probably gonna piss off a lot of people on an international forum, but too damn bad. I'm an AMERICAN...AMERICA FIRST, everyone else second!

SIEG HEIL? ;)

Hey I'm still waiting for the 'proof' of how all business is unethical. Or even most. Or some. See my earlier post.

What about our workers? It's a noble thing to care for the workers of other countries, but at the expense of ours?

If other countries begin to have more good paying jobs, then that will be a huge help to our exports.

The development of new economic markets begins with creating new jobs. If we are instrumental in helping create the new jobs, it is very likely that we will be among those who reap the rewards of the new market.

This is probably gonna piss off a lot of people on an international forum, but too damn bad. I'm an AMERICAN...AMERICA FIRST, everyone else second!

Yes, it does indeed piss me off. People are people no matter where they are born.

Back up your claim. SOURCE IT...from a RELIABLE SOURCE. don't just pull numbers out of thin air and expect anyone to believe them just because you say so.

The last job reports show 200,000 jobs created.. and the income was up. I posted an article. You counter my claims, damn it. And stop talking about your self made misery.

Carlos Mencia put it right.. you are most likely a deadbeat if you are 40 and still working in McDonalds or Walmart.

What I guess you and he have never talked to people that have these jobs.

You don't know shit.

I'm sorry but I have cited plenty of reliable sources and you have not. You don't even bother. You continue moaning and complaining about how you have it bad.. and how that is indicative of the entire US. Well come back to the real world, and realize that is not the case.

I'm not even conservative. I'm libertarian.

Ahhh that explains it.

Thank god you guys will never achive any serious power.

BTW: You made a statement, he challenged it, you didn't site your source.

Ahhh that explains it.

Thank god you guys will never achive any serious power.

BTW: You made a statement, he challenged it, you didn't site your source.

You are acting very foolish.

I did put up my source. I placed numerous sources on here. You wake the hell up, and open your eyes. Thank god you liberals will never achieve squat. I side often with the republican party (moderate elements).

You better stop lying about me because I did post sources.

Again the lack of understanding. Outsourcing allows the creation of better paying adminstration jobs back at home... it also brings back more money back to home and allow the creation of better paying jobs. This has already been shown by recent job reports. Outsourcing has a 3-1 advantage in favor of job creation.

No it doesn't. Again. We sent 50 to india and we got 2 here.

So where you getting your numbers.

No it doesn't. Again. We sent 50 to india and we got 2 here.

So where you getting your numbers.

Where are you getting your numbers? We are talking about 50 people? So what? That does not indicate the entire economy. Please stop being braindead.

Here is the latest jobs reports:

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2005/Aug/06/bz/508060315.html

Some inflation issues, but still very much in check and will cool down. The economy was almost getting too again.. expect a cool down next month.

No it doesn't. Again. We sent 50 to india and we got 2 here.

So where you getting your numbers.
Where are you getting yours? and what are these even in referrence to?

Where are you getting yours? and what are these even in referrence to?

The guy (or girl) thinks 50 jobs is indicative of an entire economy. I posted sites indicating that outsourcing creates more jobs at home. This person chooses to ignore that and cite some statistic of small sample. That's a logical fallacy and should be against the rules.

Not so the case, when it is in fact the US that has better trained IT professionals. China is going to face an economic recession pretty soon (and I've shown this in other threads.. by 2040, 30% of China's population will be over 60).

Better trained doesn't mean squat.

Much of our vendor support is in india now. My techs avage time on the phone for computer support(hardware and software) has increased 30 minutes.

Cheap labor is the desire.

Better trained doesn't mean squat.

Much of our vendor support is in india now. My techs avage time on the phone for computer support(hardware and software) has increased 30 minutes.

Cheap labor is the desire.

My. What a misinformed jerk. He doesn't know anything about the economy and how wages are actually on the increase. I don't give a damn about your company... let me tell you why? It isn't indicative of the entire economy.

No. It is not counterproductive. It increases profits. Here are some links to back up my case:

http://sify.com/finance/newspread/fullstory.php?id=13662407

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/invest/extra/P79592.asp


Sure it increases profits. You just cust salaries to 1/6th.

I was part of the Dell corporate migration back to the US move. We are one of their largest precession customers. We are a small company in number but equipment wise, the label us a large company.

The move to India did get cheap labor but it wasn't quality labor.

Dells home support still rings over seas.

Sure it increases profits. You just cust salaries to 1/6th.

I was part of the Dell corporate migration back to the US move. We are one of their largest precession customers. We are a small company in number but equipment wise, the label us a large company.

The move to India did get cheap labor but it wasn't quality labor.

Dells home support still rings over seas.

OMFG. If you want to be this dense fine with me. That is just fine. You need to start looking at the facts, IT jobs have been created here, and incomes have been on the steady increase. In fact more quality jobs have been created at home.

I was just wondering, if a whole bunch of crappy jobs are shipped overseas, doesn't that mean that jobs of a higher quality are being made in America?

I'm not really good with the whole economy thingy. I prefer being stupid and naive when it comes to this. And I'll remain happy so long as no one says China and India are stealing jobs. That's just a silly thing to say.

This forum frustrates me. I need a punching bag.

This forum frustrates me. I need a punching bag.

*pat pat* It'll be okay.

The tax cut did produce results. In fact it averted a recession in 2001.

In this case, the Bush tax cut has created many good paying jobs related with adminstrative jobs.. and IT.

Evidence?

This forum frustrates me. I need a punching bag.

I have seen you in two discussions, and from what I have seen you are insulting and obnoxious.

I don't think the problem is with the forum. Settle down and you might get something of use out of this forum.

Evidence?

where is my punching bag? Are all the links I posted just fly past your head? there was no recession in 2001.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-02-16-whatfixedit_x.htm

http://www.highbeam.com/library/doc0.asp?docid=1P1:97035242&refid=ink_tptd_np&skeyword=&teaser=

You are acting very foolish.

I did put up my source. I placed numerous sources on here. You wake the hell up, and open your eyes. Thank god you liberals will never achieve squat. I side often with the republican party (moderate elements).

You better stop lying about me because I did post sources.

Well I do I have to retract that comment. I did see your three links.

Lib? *buzzer sound* thank you for playing. Centrist for the most part.

My. What a misinformed jerk. He doesn't know anything about the economy and how wages are actually on the increase. I don't give a damn about your company... let me tell you why? It isn't indicative of the entire economy.

Yup you are a liberterian. Anybody who disagrees with you is some form of an idiot.

It's an interesting trend I have noticed(well at least from the ones I have met)

Just lucky that way I guess.

Well I do I have to retract that comment. I did see your three links.

Lib? *buzzer sound* thank you for playing. Centrist for the most part.

Alright.

Well now... You're centerist? Hah... I'm closer to the center then you...

I have seen you in two discussions, and from what I have seen you are insulting and obnoxious.

I don't think the problem is with the forum. Settle down and you might get something of use out of this forum.

BINGO! We have a winner.

Normally I don't try to annoy people like that. :D

Alright.

Well now... You're centerist? Hah... I'm closer to the center then you...


Sure you are.

Your comments suggest otherwise.

Sure you are.

Your comments suggest otherwise.

At least I have the facts on my side. I'm more towards the center because I recognize facts.

Well gonight everybody.

Mesa you need to relax.

You are kind of an angry individual if you can't see somebody is poking at you just for the sake of it.

A few less insults will garner you greator respect.

Peace.....

Well gonight everybody.

Mesa you need to relax.

You are kind of an angry individual if you can't see somebody is poking at you just for the sake of it.

A few less insults will garner you greator respect.

Peace.....

Look I provide many sources, you reject all them, I get frustrated.. try providing more.. you cite your 50 jobs example (in a country of hundreds of millions).. you see why I get frustrated?

Look I provide many sources, you reject all them, I get frustrated.. try providing more.. you cite your 50 jobs example (in a country of hundreds of millions).. you see why I get frustrated?

Well. If you are new here, though I admit you seem familiar, you better get the thicker hide. You are going to find that some really intelligent types ( not me. ;) ) will bait you just to see what you know.

Others, will tend to ignore you just on the insult levels.

You could have smashed my silly examples without the insults and people would have just laughed and comment about pawnage.

I have to hit the sack but I have to attack a kent hovind follower first. ;)

Well. If you are new here, though I admit you seem familiar, you better get the thicker hide. You are going to find that some really intelligent types ( not me. ;) ) will bait you just to see what you know.

Others, will tend to ignore you just on the insult levels.

You could have smashed my silly examples without the insults and people would have just laughed and comment about pawnage.

I have to hit the sack but I have to attack a kent hovind follower first. ;)

Oh considering the crap I had to put up with in my life, I do have a thicker hide.. I also have the tendency of getting very cold with people.

Yes, it does indeed piss me off. People are people no matter where they are born.

Sorry if it does, but at least I'm honest...I'm looking out for me and mine before everyone else. At least I'm willing to own up to that.

You are acting very foolish.
(snip)
You better stop lying about me...(snip)


Or what?? You'll run off and tell??

You did not cite a reliable source I could look at for myself, which is why I challenged you to provide one. Better not keep calling me a liar in a public forum like this, because that could be considered slander. Just because I have a different opinion than you does not make either one of us a liar. So how about backing off the fightin' words?

The guy (or girl) thinks 50 jobs is indicative of an entire economy. I posted sites indicating that outsourcing creates more jobs at home. This person chooses to ignore that and cite some statistic of small sample. That's a logical fallacy and should be against the rules.'

Ah...I see. It's okay when YOU spin things to support YOUR point of view...but when someone else does the same thing it is a logical fallacy and should be against the rules. I understand now. Obviously, someone died and made you King Farouk. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mesatecala
No. It is not counterproductive. It increases profits. Here are some links to back up my case:

http://sify.com/finance/newspread/f...php?id=13662407

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content...xtra/P79592.asp



Sure it increases profits. You just cust salaries to 1/6th.

I was part of the Dell corporate migration back to the US move. We are one of their largest precession customers. We are a small company in number but equipment wise, the label us a large company.

The move to India did get cheap labor but it wasn't quality labor.

Dells home support still rings over seas.

Mesa...you can't have it both ways! Either it increases profits...or salaries are increasing. Which is it, you can't have it both ways, it doesn't work like that.

I was just wondering, if a whole bunch of crappy jobs are shipped overseas, doesn't that mean that jobs of a higher quality are being made in America?

I'm not really good with the whole economy thingy. I prefer being stupid and naive when it comes to this. And I'll remain happy so long as no one says China and India are stealing jobs. That's just a silly thing to say.

But that is exactly what they ARE doing...stealing jobs!! Their people do not have the workplace regulations that require worker safety that we have here...and they work for 10 percent what Americans could even afford to work for. You cannot compete with slave labor. they are taking our jobs, because they are willing to work for slave wages...which is causing a net loss of jobs, and an overall decrease in income for the average American worker. It is creating a race to the bottom in terms of wages.

I predict a lift on the regulation of one-baby-per-couple soon.
Heh, no need, as sooner or later we're due for another major flu epidemic which should wipe out a good chunk of all nations' elderly. Guesstimates are between 10-30% of the worlds population.

Or what?? You'll run off and tell??

You did not cite a reliable source I could look at for myself, which is why I challenged you to provide one. Better not keep calling me a liar in a public forum like this, because that could be considered slander. Just because I have a different opinion than you does not make either one of us a liar. So how about backing off the fightin' words?

You're the one who denies everything and denies all sources, because it doesn't fucking agree with you. The reality is not what you said. You are committing acts of slander against me. Furthermore, you better start recognizing my sources and you better stop accusing me of things.

Ah...I see. It's okay when YOU spin things to support YOUR point of view...but when someone else does the same thing it is a logical fallacy and should be against the rules. I understand now. Obviously, someone died and made you King Farouk. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

I don't spin anything. I just post the facts and that jobs are being created at a good amount. When someone says they think 50 jobs indicative of an entire economy they commit the logical error: small statistics fallacy. I do not commit logical errors because unlike you, and her, I provide sources. You wouldn't do that. In fact you threaten me (by saying I'm committing slander), and then you turn around and you slander me.

Threats are against forum rules.

They aren't stealing jobs. Read my sources.

which is causing a net loss of jobs, and an overall decrease in income for the average American worker. It is creating a race to the bottom in terms of wages.

FALSE! The average income is actually on the rise (that's some concern for inflation), but the thing is inflation has been kept in check. There is no net loss of jobs (ignorance to say there is).. in fact jobs are being created at a rapid pace and they expect unemployment to fall to 4.8% by years end.

Ravenstrike, there is new technology invented that makes a cure all flu vaccine. I posted a thread on it.

FALSE! The average income is actually on the rise (that's some concern for inflation), but the thing is inflation has been kept in check. There is no net loss of jobs (ignorance to say there is).. in fact jobs are being created at a rapid pace and they expect unemployment to fall to 4.8% by years end.

Ravenstrike, there is new technology invented that makes a cure all flu vaccine. I posted a thread on it.
Do you have a link as to the PPP of the average US wage plotted over the past few years? I see the average income barely moving against inflation (.1%ish), year over year. More to the matter, will job creation erode the participation rate (I dislike using unemployment rates, they hide too much)? We're still a good 1% under the peak in 2001, and we've been moving in a narrow range of 65.8-66.7 for the past two years.


Oh, and what is this magic flu vaccine that can adapt to what has to be the most volitle little bugger virus wise.

Do you have a link as to the PPP of the average US wage plotted over the past few years? I see the average income barely moving against inflation (.1%ish), year over year. More to the matter, will job creation erode the participation rate (I dislike using unemployment rates, they hide too much)? We're still a good 1% under the peak in 2001, and we've been moving in a narrow range of 65.8-66.7 for the past two years.

I think it was more like 1% over the rate of inflation which is good because it keeps inflation in check. It has stayed around 1% per quarter. I will look for a link, but incomes have relatively been above inflation at a moderate level (remember you don't want incomes growing too fast or you'll have inflation, or even hyper-inflation).

http://www.wkyt.com/Global/story.asp?S=3689306

"A British biotech firm says it's working on an influenza vaccine that could give lifelong protection against all types of flu, avoiding the need for an annual shot.

Cambridge-based Acambis said it hopes to target a non-mutating protein found in all strains of flu. Current vaccines work by immunizing the body to two proteins that tend to mutate from year to year, which means new vaccines must be developed just to keep up with the new strains, according to BBC News."

Different concept on how to treat the flu. Totally different.

It'll need some more work but they are getting there.

Also they already found a vaccine for the bird flu.

I think it was more like 1% over the rate of inflation which is good because it keeps inflation in check. It has stayed around 1% per quarter. I will look for a link, but incomes have relatively been above inflation at a moderate level (remember you don't want incomes growing too fast or you'll have inflation, or even hyper-inflation).
CPI (I really don't like that measure, that's why I'm wondering if you have a PPP weighted wage) up 2.5 year over year, an increase .6 year over year in constant dollars in wages.

Table 2a, 5a also shows a decline in constant wages (in just wages, not other forms of compensation) of about -.7 (tied to 100 in september 1985)

ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/suppl/eci.ecconst.txt


Really, targeting a protein. Good luck doing that, but I'll believe it when it rolls out in production, I don't think that there really are many 'stable' proteins, and even less stable proteins that are novel to the flu. And they've got a vaccine for one variant of the bird flu. There are lots of varients. That's the problem. I take it you know how the vaccines work?

That's MY proposal to businesses. You want a tax cut? fine. Earn it by doing the decent, honest and right thing FIRST. We don't trust you to do the decent thing. Businesses have proven themselves unethical, they get a tax cut and just line their pockets with it, and continue to outsource jobs overseas.

Screw that. My proposal says you create good, honest jobs HERE IN AMERICA...and FOR AMERICANS...then you get your tax cut. And your tax cut is based on the quality of the jobs you create, example, if you just create a bunch of McJobs that pay horseshit, then you get a horseshit tax cut. If you crerate good decent-paying jobs that someone could actually live on, then you get a better tax cut.

I'd also encourage tax cuts for businesses that promoted and used things like telecommuting and carpooling. And base their tax cut on their success in implementing such programs.

I know, such a Lefty, aren't I? Such a horrible thing for someone to demand results from a tax cut, instead of taking business at it's word, isn't it? Such a horrible, Commie viewpoint, to hold businesses accountable!

***dons Kevlar vest and waits to get reamed by the conservo-creeps on this site...***


Amen brother stop giving companies tax breaks for nothing. Well said ;)

Table 2a

ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/suppl/eci.ecconst.txt


Really, targeting a protein. Good luck doing that, but I'll believe it when it rolls out in production, I don't think that there really are many 'stable' proteins, and even less stable proteins that are novel to the flu. And they've got a vaccine for one variant of the bird flu. There are lots of varients. That's the problem. I take it you know how the vaccines work?

I think there are stable proteins and I think this company has found this.

Yes I do know how vaccines and variants work. You are misinterpreting the bird flu situation though. The one strain that is of concern is the H5N2 strain, which we have a vaccine for. It is the current one spreading. I'm hoping it won't mutate.

I think there are stable proteins and I think this company has found this.

Yes I do know how vaccines and variants work. You are misinterpreting the bird flu situation though. The one strain that is of concern is the H5N2 strain, which we have a vaccine for. It is the current one spreading. I'm hoping it won't mutate.
You can hope all you want, that doesn't mean that it won't happen. You have to remember you're dealing with strains of viruses that mutate to seperate distinct strains each year.

You can hope all you want, that doesn't mean that it won't happen. You have to remember you're dealing with strains of viruses that mutate to seperate distinct strains each year.

Oh shut up. Some things just don't turn out and disappear. We can effectively quarantine the H5N2 if it is done properly.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050719/hl_afp/vietnamhealthflu_050719114533

And that is being done in Vietnam. They are vaccinating poultry to prevent any more spread of the flu.

Oh shut up. Some things just don't turn out and disappear. We can effectively quarantine the H5N2 if it is done properly.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050719/hl_afp/vietnamhealthflu_050719114533

And that is being done in Vietnam. They are vaccinating poultry to prevent any more spread of the flu.
I'm not saying that that varient of the bird flu will become pandemic, I'm saying that I sincerly doubt that anyone will come up with an iron vaccine for the flu, and even if they do, it will eventually mutate around it. Darwinism is a wonderful thing, no?

Oh, and see above about the wages. Do you have a PPP linked wage to refute that or are we going with a .6 year over year rise in wages when linked to inflation, a .7 drop in wages proper year over year?

I'm not saying that that varient of the bird flu will become pandemic, I'm saying that I sincerly doubt that anyone will come up with an iron vaccine for the flu, and even if they do, it will eventually mutate around it. Darwinism is a wonderful thing, no?

I honestly think we can and will find something because look at the facts: the pure advancement of science and medicine is incredible. And funny thing is, the beloved private sector I boast about is coming up with these advancements. If you read the article I provided you would realize it is based on stable concepts of the flu, not the unstable parts.

They might stamp it out.

Oh, and see above about the wages. Do you have a PPP linked wage to refute that or are we going with a .6 year over year rise in wages when linked to inflation, a .7 drop in wages proper year over year?

It is best wages don't grow too fast or we could be in trouble. And no, that source is false because inflation is below wage growth (I've seen this myself with the sources I provided). Wages aren't dropping. Maybe you are misreading your source.

I honestly think we can and will find something because look at the facts: the pure advancement of science and medicine is incredible. And funny thing is, the beloved private sector I boast about is coming up with these advancements. If you read the article I provided you would realize it is based on stable concepts of the flu, not the unstable parts.

They might stamp it out.



It is best wages don't grow too fast or we could be in trouble. And no, that source is false because inflation is below wage growth (I've seen this myself with the sources I provided). Wages aren't dropping. Maybe you are misreading your source.
Read the link then. I cited tables.

Oh, and my source that has wages dropping strips out the public sector. Only fair.

Read the link then. I cited tables.

No. You read my sources again showing wages are above inflation.

No. You read my sources again showing wages are above inflation.
You're the one claiming the BLS's data is wrong.

You're the one claiming the BLS's data is wrong.

If it were true, then why is inflation below wage growth? :mad: why don't you fucking read my sources for a change? the economy is fucking great.

If it were true, then why is inflation below wage growth? :mad: why don't you fucking read my sources for a change? the economy is fucking great.
I'll bite. Show me the BLS sources (that's bureau of labor statistics, the offical government body) that has wages (not compensation) rising in static dollar terms (100=september 1985).


Go on.

I'll bite. Show me the BLS sources (that's bureau of labor statistics, the offical government body) that has wages (not compensation) rising in static dollar terms (100=september 1985).


Go on.

Why don't you just see that wage growth is up, and not down? Look at the god damn facts I posted. The recent job growth reports showed this (207,000 jobs created and wages up).

Why don't you just see that wage growth is up, and not down? Look at the god damn facts I posted. The recent job growth reports showed this (207,000 jobs created and wages up).
Because my government source says otherwise. It clearly says

"TABLE 5a. EMPLOYMENT COST INDEX (WAGES AND SALARIES ONLY), CIVILIAN WORKERS(1)

(Constant dollars, not seasonally adjusted)

1981 (jun)- 94.8
...
2004 (jun)- 107.5
2005 (jun)- 107.3"


Of course, compensation, which I've said is going up if you've been listening, though not at 1%, says:
TABLE 2a. EMPLOYMENT COST INDEX (COMPENSATION), CIVILIAN WORKERS(1)

(Constant dollars, not seasonally adjusted)
1981 (jun)- 92.0
2004 (jun)- 112.7
2005 (jun)- 113.4"

This guy is truly dense. The sources I provided were figures released by the government.

This guy is truly dense. The sources I provided were figures released by the government.
Whooboy.

ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/suppl/eci.ecconst.txt


ftp.

File Transfer Protocall.


BLS. Bureau of labor statistics. Full name "U.S. Department of Labor Bureau of Labor Statistics"

.gov. Government website.


Again, you seem to have some big problem with understanding the difference between dollars and constant dollars. Dollars increase due to inflation over time. Constant dollars do not. Comparing wages over time with dollars (non-constant) is useless. Your statistics do just that. Mine don't.

Again, you seem to have some big problem with understanding the difference between dollars and constant dollars. Dollars increase due to inflation over time. Constant dollars do not. Comparing wages over time with dollars (non-constant) is useless. Your statistics do just that. Mine don't.

You better stop harping on something you have little understanding of. Wage growth has remained constantly over inflation. I really hate dense people. They don't have a clue.

Mesatecala:

Sources that show real wages (Wages adjusted for inflation) fell in 2004:

www.laborresearch.org/charts.php?id=8

www.uswa.org/uswa/program/content/1663.php

www.americanprogressaction.org/site/pp.asp?c=klLWJcP7H&b=183702

http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/webfeatures_snapshots_07162004



Especially pay attention to this one, it is dealing with 2005, it touches explicitly on the topic, and it is from the Financial Times, which is as reputable as any source on finance or economics gets:

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/f269a8f4-c173-11d9-943f-00000e2511c8.html


EDIT: Please post your sources saying that real wages are increasing again, I am having trouble finding it.

You better stop harping on something you have little understanding of. Wage growth has remained constantly over inflation. I really hate dense people. They don't have a clue.
Please, give me a source that shows, in real dollar terms, that wage growth year over year exceeds the numbers that I have. Christ, you call me dense but you've yet to refute my numbers. Why do you believe that they are wrong?

Mesatecala:

Sources that show real wages (Wages adjusted for inflation) fell in 2004:

www.laborresearch.org/charts.php?id=8

www.uswa.org/uswa/program/content/1663.php

www.americanprogressaction.org/site/pp.asp?c=klLWJcP7H&b=183702

http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/webfeatures_snapshots_07162004



Especially pay attention to this one, it is dealing with 2005, it touches explicitly on the topic, and it is from the Financial Times, which is as reputable as any source on finance or economics gets:

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/f269a8f4-c173-11d9-943f-00000e2511c8.html

I don't fucking get refuted in the area I'm strong in.. here are other sources backing me up:

http://www.manufacturing.net/article/NEk0808531.0do.html?vertical=News&verticalid=486&industry=Top+Stories&industryid=1922

"The department said average hourly earnings, a key gauge of inflation, rose 6 cents to $16.13 in July."

Wages are not falling this year. They are steadily up.

I don't fucking get refuted in the area I'm strong in.. here are other sources backing me up:

http://www.manufacturing.net/article/NEk0808531.0do.html?vertical=News&verticalid=486&industry=Top+Stories&industryid=1922

"The department said average hourly earnings, a key gauge of inflation, rose 6 cents to $16.13 in July."

Wages are not falling this year. They are steadily up.
Not adjusted for inflation. And you call me dense...


I'll say this again. I do not contest that current wages are up. I do, however, contest that real wages, wages in terms that account for inflation, that account for the buying power of the dollar, are down. I have BLS data saying just that. Where is your data refuting this? The surest sign of a losing economic argument is using current data when real data is needed.

Not adjusted for inflation. And you call me dense...


I'll say this again. I do not contest that current wages are up. I do, however, contest that real wages, wages in terms that account for inflation, that account for the buying power of the dollar, are down. I have BLS data saying just that. Where is your data refuting this? The surest sign of a losing economic argument is using current data when real data is needed.

That is adjusted for inflation.

I will say you are wrong and will continue to say that because the facts are on my side. I will not get defeated in this.

That is adjusted for inflation.

I will say you are wrong and will continue to say that because the facts are on my side. I will not get defeated in this.
Where do you read that they are adjusted for inflation into that article? You've also yet to state why my source is wrong.

I don't fucking get refuted in the area I'm strong in.. here are other sources backing me up:

http://www.manufacturing.net/article/NEk0808531.0do.html?vertical=News&verticalid=486&industry=Top+Stories&industryid=1922

"The department said average hourly earnings, a key gauge of inflation, rose 6 cents to $16.13 in July."

Wages are not falling this year. They are steadily up.

We are not interested in whether wages are going up. We are interested in whether real wages are going up.

This article mentions nominal wages as going up an average of 6 cents per hour. However, if inflation is rising quicker than that, as all of my sources state, then the real wage is going down.

Nominal wage measures how many dollars you are getting paid. Real wages measure what you can buy with the wages you make, and so is far more important.

We are not interested in whether wages are going up. We are interested in whether real wages are going up.

This article mentions nominal wages as going up an average of 6 cents per hour. However, if inflation is rising quicker than that, as all of my sources state, then the real wage is going down.

Nominal wage measures how many dollars you are getting paid. Real wages measure what you can buy with the wages you make, and so is far more important.

Real wages aren't going down. I can't get defeated in this and guess what? I won't.

Real wages aren't going down. I can't get defeated in this and guess what? I won't.
Where is your proof of this? You've only shown that nominal wages are going up, not real wages. Please provide a BLS page that shows that real wages, that is wages in constant-dollar terms, are going up.

There are over 25 million (http://www.bizstats.com/businesses.htm) businesses in the USA.

Let's see some proof that a majority of these, or even a large chunk, are unethical.

Otherwise, it's just another generalization that demonizes the 'enemy,' and deserving of no further comment.
Thank you, SB. As a business owner, I felt that this blanket statement was paranoid and naive. This kid probably thinks business owners sit around all day and think "How can I screw the poor today?". instead of "How can I make my client's happier (and wealthier) today?". :rolleyes:

Real wages aren't going down. I can't get defeated in this and guess what? I won't.

What is the deal with getting "defeated"?

Accept new information, learn a little bit, and get over yourself. It will do wonders.

What is the deal with getting "defeated"?

Accept new information, learn a little bit, and get over yourself. It will do wonders.
Agreed. The "libertarian" with an authoritarian streak is majorly creeping me out (don't say this, don't do that). Bizarre.

Agreed. The "libertarian" with an authoritarian streak is majorly creeping me out (don't say this, don't do that). Bizarre.

My (NS) nation is not representative of my views. You should know that.

My (NS) nation is not representative of my views. You should know that.
I've never seen your NS nation. I was referring to this conversation. You're telling people to "watch out" and "don't say this". It just seems strange coming from you, with the little I've seen so far.

Unless you're drinking, I don't know why you'd let anyone on the internet affect you so much emotionally. I've outsourced positions, and have made some individuals very happy with what I paid them. Most of the time, they're only somewhat cheaper, and they often do a better job than their American counterparts.

You were going somewhere, and I was interested to see where you were going with your stats, but you dropped the ball so you could punch a few players. Do whatcha like, but I would've ignored them altogether if they were ignoring me, and gone on with my argument.

As I say, if you're right, give them enough rope to hang themselves. Don't let yourself wind up on that side of the rope instead. ;)

Oh shut up. Some things just don't turn out and disappear. We can effectively quarantine the H5N2 if it is done properly.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050719/hl_afp/vietnamhealthflu_050719114533

And that is being done in Vietnam. They are vaccinating poultry to prevent any more spread of the flu.

The CDC doesn't think this is being handled.

How do you vaccinate migratory birds?

Whatever you say.

The CDC doesn't think this is being handled.


Incomplete sentence.

Besides read the fact that we have vaccines and that I read recent reports from the CDC that only 3 million vaccines are needed to stop any outbreak.

Whatever you say.

Incomplete sentence.

Besides read the fact that we have vaccines and that I read recent reports from the CDC that only 3 million vaccines are needed to stop any outbreak.

Oh come on now. Turn down the liberterian you are all idiots knob.

3 Million? Well it sounds like a bunch but the big fear is how fast it moves. Multiple out breaks in different parts of the country would test that supply fast.

That is of course they work with the strain that has appeared....

Hopefully we don't have to find out if the claims are right or not.

My granddad told some stories about spanish influenza. Not pretty. Things are different now but it's not a nice idea dealling with something you can't simply shake off.

3 Million? Well it sounds like a bunch but the big fear is how fast it moves. Multiple out breaks in different parts of the country would test that supply fast.

That is of course they work with the strain that has appeared....

Hopefully we don't have to find out if the claims are right or not.

My granddad told some stories about spanish influenza. Not pretty. Things are different now but it's not a nice idea dealling with something you can't simply shake off.

3 million is just the beginning.. they are planning to order way more then that just in case.

You really need to rethink your arguments. We have a vaccine for a influenza that may or may not happen and have the capability of mass producing it. Did they have vaccine for the spanish influenza before it started?

3 million is just the beginning.. they are planning to order way more then that just in case.

You really need to rethink your arguments. We have a vaccine for a influenza that may or may not happen and have the capability of mass producing it. Did they have vaccine for the spanish influenza before it started?

Whoops there is that liberterian you are all idiots factor again.

You forget it's a vaccine that may or may not work on avian flu.

Don't forget that we had enough vaccine for a bio attack and of course the means to produce it and then that company went belly up.

Whoops there is that liberterian you are all idiots factor again.

I didn't say that.. what the fuck are you talking about? Can you spell libertarian either? What is with the stupid sentence anyways? "That liberterian you are all idiots factor again"? Are you trying to make yourself look bad?

You forget it's a vaccine that may or may not work on avian flu.

Don't forget that we had enough vaccine for a bio attack and of course the means to produce it and then that company went belly up.

They have a human vaccine that has proved to be effective. Just developed.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050808/ap_on_he_me/flu_vaccine_5

It will work on the avian flu.

They have a human vaccine that has proved to be effective. Just developed.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050808/ap_on_he_me/flu_vaccine_5

It will work on the avian flu.

Interesting.

Hopefully the other tests pan out as well......

Interesting.

Hopefully the other tests pan out as well......

I want a response on the other part of my post... what "liberterian (SIC) you are all idiots factor"?

I want a response on the other part of my post... what "liberterian (SIC) you are all idiots factor"?

I thought it was pointed out to you.

I haven't meet one of your ilk that doesn't think he is smarter then everybody else.

The also tend to project "GOD YOU ARE SO STUPID" when in debate over issues.

Note: I can't say all are like that. Just the ones I have met.

Probably the worst case was a friend. He announced he was one and then over time I learned he was a rather nasty individual. Scary thing is the fact he is a teacher. He was overly helpful to the A students. Pleasent to the B students. Cs and lower only received abuse because they were obvious screwups wasting his time.

I took him for a class once and pointed that out over lunch one time and man did he get vulgar. I finished the course and we haven't spoken since.

The guy is really smart. Just a crap teacher. For all his arrogance I think he was afraid of failure. He is a smart man. Wrote some rather good programing books that did well. Yet, his attitude. He should be teaching graduate courses and not deal with people who are trying out intro courses.

Then again he might find people that are smarter then him.

Don't know; don't care.

But that is exactly what they ARE doing...stealing jobs!! Their people do not have the workplace regulations that require worker safety that we have here...and they work for 10 percent what Americans could even afford to work for. You cannot compete with slave labor. they are taking our jobs, because they are willing to work for slave wages...which is causing a net loss of jobs, and an overall decrease in income for the average American worker. It is creating a race to the bottom in terms of wages.

You contradicted yourself.

They AREN'T stealing jobs, they get them because they're willing to work more, for less money.

Probably the worst case was a friend. He announced he was one and then over time I learned he was a rather nasty individual. Scary thing is the fact he is a teacher. He was overly helpful to the A students. Pleasent to the B students. Cs and lower only received abuse because they were obvious screwups wasting his time.

i don't know what your problem is, but you don't know me and you don't know half of my beliefs. You also don't know me.

The guy is really smart. Just a crap teacher. For all his arrogance I think he was afraid of failure. He is a smart man. Wrote some rather good programing books that did well. Yet, his attitude. He should be teaching graduate courses and not deal with people who are trying out intro courses.

I'm not arrogant. I think you are in assuming such things about me... not a very nice thing to do a person?

i don't know what your problem is, but you don't know me and you don't know half of my beliefs. You also don't know me.

I'm not arrogant. I think you are in assuming such things about me... not a very nice thing to do a person?

*shrugs*

Don't know what to tell you. Posting is a horrible form of communication. Just impressions I have.

Some of your comments tend to suggest a level of arrogance.

We all have it to some degree or another.

I don't deny I am not. I am good at what I do. Very good. As such some people have labled me arrogant.

You can have the last comment as this poor thread has been hijacked enough.

*shrugs*

Don't know what to tell you. Posting is a horrible form of communication. Just impressions I have.

Some of your comments tend to suggest a level of arrogance.

There is no arrogance in my postings. All I do is provide sources and comment on them. If you want to call me arrogant because my views don't match yours, then well.. you have a very high amount of arrogance.

There is no arrogance in my postings. All I do is provide sources and comment on them. If you want to call me arrogant because my views don't match yours, then well.. you have a very high amount of arrogance.
Speaking of which, you've yet to refute my data, you've only called it wrong. That's highly arrogant. I've showed you where you error in your citations, you've yet to do so.

But lowering taxes leaves more money for investment, which creates new business opportunities, which leads to jobs- as opposed to high taxes which create... a dependancy mentality and makes all the productive people in a society become tax exiles in Monoco. Or New Hampshire.

well said... apropos and deadly accurate.

Lyrics, one would think that the vast majority of American businesses choose to employ chiefly American labor. If your demands were to become law, you'd be putting constraints on businesspeople in order to get a tax cut... which would keep some of them on the sideline. Remember what happens when you hurt american business?

And no, they DON'T get credit for making shitty McJobs that don't pay a decent, living wage. And they haven't created a job FOR ME, yet...so no, they don't get credit.
You're missing my point. Businesses created the vast majority of the jobs that exist, so they don't get credit for creating THOSE jobs? Their reward should be based on YOUR ability to find the job that YOU want? Talk about solipsism.

You're the one who denies everything and denies all sources, because it doesn't fucking agree with you. The reality is not what you said. You are committing acts of slander against me. Furthermore, you better start recognizing my sources and you better stop accusing me of things.

I'll start recognizing your sources, when you quit posting biased sources that only report ONE SIDE of the question...yours!

I better start recognizing your sources?? Or what?? You gonna go run home and cry? I'll be damned if I'm going to recognize biased sources that only report ONE SIDE.


FALSE! The average income is actually on the rise (that's some concern for inflation), but the thing is inflation has been kept in check. There is no net loss of jobs (ignorance to say there is).. in fact jobs are being created at a rapid pace and they expect unemployment to fall to 4.8% by years end.


Bullshit. Avergae income is NOT on the rise. Want me to source? Fine. Read this and choke on it....

http://www.pennlive.com/columns/expresstimes/cahir/index.ssf?/base/columns-0/1123578336125240.xml

Below is the text, in case the link doesn't work....bolds, italics, and underlines my addition

Cahir: There's two sides to economy coin
Tuesday, August 09, 2005

Republicans have been celebrating a great deal of economic good news in recent weeks, pointing to a growth rate of 3.4 percent for the second quarter, an inflation rate hovering at 2.5 percent and an expanding labor market that has added 2.2 million jobs since July 2004, including 207,000 last month.

"Employment is up in 48 of the 50 states; unemployment is down to 5 percent," President Bush said Wednesday in a speech to the American Legislative Exchange Council in Grapevine, Texas. "That's below the average rate of the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s. The entrepreneurial spirit is strong. More people own a home today than ever before in our nation's history. Our tax-relief plan is working."

Republicans seem to be getting little credit from voters. An Associated Press-Ipsos poll, taken Aug. 1 to 3, showed that fewer than 4 in 10 people, 37 percent of the 1,000 adults surveyed, claimed the country was headed in the right direction. Nearly 6 in 10, or 59 percent, said the nation was on the wrong track.

The same survey put Bush's approval rating for handling the economy at 41 percent, the lowest ebb ever for his presidency.

Despite the good news, workers and investors may see the economic data in terms that are less than favorable to the White House and GOP lawmakers, who have passed three major tax-cut laws since 2001 while promising significant job gains. To wit:

The nationwide unemployment rate, 5.0 percent in July, remains higher than the jobless rate President Bush inherited in January 2001, 4.2 percent, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

The nationwide poverty rate rose from 12.1 percent in 2002 to 12.5 percent in 2003, according to the most recent Census Bureau data available.

The Dow Jones Industrial Average has been flat throughout the Bush presidency. The Dow closed at 10,578.74 on Jan. 22, 2001, the first business day of the Bush administration. The Dow on Friday, closed at 10,558.03, actually declining slightly over 5 1/2 years.

Accounting fraud has wiped out or depressed citizens' investments in a broad wide range of publicly traded companies, including Adelphia Communications, Enron, Global Crossing, Merck, Time Warner, Tyco, WorldCom and Xerox.

Consumers enjoy little protection from rising gasoline prices, increasing health care costs and college tuition expenses, despite a low overall inflation rate for other goods throughout the economy.

Wages grew 3.1 percent in the last quarter, but in nominal terms, not in comparison to inflation. Wages are "more or less keeping place with inflation right now, which is only something to celebrate in that they had been falling behind inflation. That's not great news. Wages are supposed to grow," said Dean Baker, co-director of the Center for Economic Policy and Research.

The minimum wage, $5.15 per hour, last was raised in 1997. It has declined in real terms every year since then, reaching a new low, $4.15 in 1996 dollars, than any level since 1955.

At least 45 million people did not have health insurance coverage in 2003, according to the Census Bureau, an increase of 1.5 million in one year. Updated data will be released later this month.

The federal budget in 2000 ran a budget surplus of $236 billion and in 2001 produced a bonus of $127 billion, even after the attacks of Sept. 11. But Uncle Sam ran a $413 billion deficit last year and he expects to add at least $350 billion to his credit card this year. The much-ballyhooed decline in the deficit can be attributed to the expiration of corporate tax breaks rather than any decrease in spending.

The Bureau of Economic Analysis, which estimates the growth rate for the Gross Domestic Product, has made splashy news statements about economic activity each quarter. For three years running, it has revised its estimates downward again and again, tempering its quarterly good-news reports.

The president and his allies in Congress themselves may shoulder the blame for the lack of public credit they're getting on the economic front.

Bush and congressional Republicans made a series of extraordinary promises in 2001 and thereafter, when passing tax-cut legislation. They issued news releases promising job growth would occur in specific states and congressional districts, as if politicians in Washington, D.C., controlled where economic growth would pay off.

If voters still harbor some natural, non-partisan skepticism about such command-and-control promises, perhaps Republicans can thank themselves for adopting a public relations strategy divorced from wage and health-care concerns.


Bill Cahir covers New Jersey and Pennsylvania issues in Washington, D.C., for The Express-Times.

Now, again, can we hear what a GREAT job Bush is doing??

You see what happens when BOTH SIDES of the story are reported??? Your sources are all Republican/corporate puff-pieces and propaganda that only report one side of the story. This story reports both sides...but I bolded and underlined where the reporting backs up MY SIDE. you don't see these things reported in the pabulum puking sources you provide, because to report that stuff would be inimical to the interests of the agenda of you and your ilk, Mesa.

Thank you, SB. As a business owner, I felt that this blanket statement was paranoid and naive. This kid probably thinks business owners sit around all day and think "How can I screw the poor today?". instead of "How can I make my client's happier (and wealthier) today?". :rolleyes:

the problem is...all the solutions you have for "making your clients happier (and wealthier) have the effect of screwing over workers. Why don't you EVER...as a business owner...think...HOW CAN I MAKE MY EMPLOYEES HAPPIER...AND WEALTHIER...TODAY??

I'm old enough to remember when a skilled employee was considered an asset. Now, all you business owners just think of an employuee as a liability, because you have to (gasp!!!) actually PAY them!! Heaven forbid they should want to get paid a decent, livable wgae for the work they do!! How horrible of them to demand such a thing!!

You see what happens when BOTH SIDES of the story are reported??? Your sources are all Republican/corporate puff-pieces and propaganda that only report one side of the story. This story reports both sides...but I bolded and underlined where the reporting backs up MY SIDE. you don't see these things reported in the pabulum puking sources you provide, because to report that stuff would be inimical to the interests of the agenda of you and your ilk, Mesa.

*claps frantically*

THANK. YOU.

You see what happens when BOTH SIDES of the story are reported??? Your sources are all Republican/corporate puff-pieces and propaganda that only report one side of the story. This story reports both sides...but I bolded and underlined where the reporting backs up MY SIDE. you don't see these things reported in the pabulum puking sources you provide, because to report that stuff would be inimical to the interests of the agenda of you and your ilk, Mesa.

I'm not recognizing your stupid false source. That link is false and is not following the facts. How come real income is rising? You are the one who spews crap from left wing editorial writers. You are the one who is the puff piece of the left wing propaganda moron movement. You need to start recognizing the facts.

I'm not recognizing your stupid false source. That link is false and is not following the facts. How come real income is rising? You are the one who spews crap from left wing editorial writers. You are the one who is the puff piece of the left wing propaganda moron movement. You need to start recognizing the facts.

that is hardly left-wing reporting! You want, I could provide some severely left-wing biased reports, by citing DemocraticUnderground!

This is what is called balanced reporting. He cites the good news, but tempers it with some FACTS about that good news, to put it in the proper perspective.

Wages ARE NOT rising in terms of inflation, and Republicans ARE divorced from the evryday concerns of regular Americans.

I'm not recognizing your stupid false source. That link is false and is not following the facts. How come real income is rising? You are the one who spews crap from left wing editorial writers. You are the one who is the puff piece of the left wing propaganda moron movement. You need to start recognizing the facts.
Is this the same reason why you wouldn't go to the PNAC website because you thought it was liberal propaganda? Just because a liberal cites a source you automatically think it's bullshit and radical propaganda?

This is what is called balanced reporting. He cites the good news, but tempers it with some FACTS about that good news, to put it in the proper perspective.

Wages ARE NOT rising in terms of inflation, and Republicans ARE divorced from the evryday concerns of regular Americans.

That is not balanced reporting. That's wishful thinking. I showed recent reports showing wages are up. Wages are going up in terms of inflation. No you democrats are the one one divorced from everyday concerns of regular americans.

I thought it was pointed out to you.

I haven't meet one of your ilk that doesn't think he is smarter then everybody else.

The also tend to project "GOD YOU ARE SO STUPID" when in debate over issues.

Eichen and I also share libertarian views and have been active in this thread. Have we been condescending to you or anyone else?

the problem is...all the solutions you have for "making your clients happier (and wealthier) have the effect of screwing over workers. Why don't you EVER...as a business owner...think...HOW CAN I MAKE MY EMPLOYEES HAPPIER...AND WEALTHIER...TODAY??

I'm old enough to remember when a skilled employee was considered an asset. Now, all you business owners just think of an employuee as a liability, because you have to (gasp!!!) actually PAY them!! Heaven forbid they should want to get paid a decent, livable wgae for the work they do!! How horrible of them to demand such a thing!!

You are trained within management programs in universities on how to improve the well being of your workers. Any good employer knows that the best way to make good employees and hold on to good employees is to treat them well.

Quite often companies will enhance their business by maintaining a high quality product through high quality workers. They do this by being gracious to their employees.

I could go into a little economics, and show that, in the aggregate, consumers and workers are in fact the same people, making it impossible to screw workers in favor of the consumer.

That is not balanced reporting. That's wishful thinking. I showed recent reports showing wages are up. Wages are going up in terms of inflation. No you democrats are the one one divorced from everyday concerns of regular americans.


It's balanced reporting because it is giving statistics from BOTH SIDES of the issue. You just don't like it because it does give out stuff YOU don't want to admit to, because it shatters YOUR rosy picture you want to promote, which is bullshit.

Maybe things are hunky-dory for YOU, but a lot of America is doing without a hell of a lot in this shitty economy...things they shouldn't HAVE to do without, if it weren't for the fact that the fat-cats...the white-collar folks, are stingy, and refuse to pay what it really COSTS to live in America.

YOU just don't want people to see that reported...as if you think burying your head in the sand, and denying it over and over again will make my words not true.

You have your opinion, and I have mine, obviously, they are diametrically opposed, and the truth is probably somewhere in between your rosy picture, and my jaundiced, cynical picture.

But I think it's closer to MY jaundiced and cynical picture than to your rosy one for most people.

My source was my own local newspaper, the Express-Times, and one of their columnists, by the name of Bill Cahir.

Read the whole article, especially taking note of the areas I did not bold, and you will see many of the things YOU cite as being indications of a good economy in your sources. MY article just put those facts into the proper perspective, and so you don't like it.

Take particular note of the fact that wages are now (supposedly) keeping up with inflation, and before they were NOT. Also take note of the FACT...cited by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, in the article I cited...that the current 5.0 percent unemployment rate (which you agree with since you have, yourself cited this as a cause for saying the economy was good) is STILL HIGHER THAN THE 4.2 PERCENT RATE THAT BUSH INHERTED FROM CLINTON IN 2001.

See, you don't want the part that is in ALL-CAPS to be reported, because it puts the 5.0 percent unemployment rate into a perspective that works against the argument you are trying to build. So...only articles and sources that DON'T include the ALL-CAPS information are, to your view...unbiased. And to my view...any article that does NOT include the ALL-CAPS info is merely propaganda, to try to make Bush and the Republicans look good, when, in fact, they are doing a shitty job with domestic issues that people care about...like EMPLOYMENT.

You are trained within management programs in universities on how to improve the well being of your workers. Any good employer knows that the best way to make good employees and hold on to good employees is to treat them well.

Quite often companies will enhance their business by maintaining a high quality product through high quality workers. They do this by being gracious to their employees.

I could go into a little economics, and show that, in the aggregate, consumers and workers are in fact the same people, making it impossible to screw workers in favor of the consumer.

Is that so? Well, then, the CEO of the last major corporation I worked for must have missed those classes...because he and his minions LIED TO US about what we could expect our salaries to be, when he recruited us to work for his company...when they beat my current company on bidding for a contract we had been working on.

His minions assured us our salaries would not be reduced. They LIED. They told us we could make, on piece-rate, between 11 and 16 dollars an hour, and that the average would be 13 dollars an hour. Since, at the time, I was making $10.50, that sounded good to me...and so when I was offered a job, I accepted.

Then, they set the piece rate. My average wage suddenly went to just over 8 bucks an hour, and the companywide average was "nearly seven dollars an hour." What the fuck happened to 11-16 bucks, with 13 bucks being the company average? Needless to say, I was not going to accept a nearly 3 dollar an hour wage cut for doing the same work, and so I walked on their ass, and haven't had a steady job since.

And to add insult to injury?? These ass-clowns insisted that, as part of being employees of their company, we had to take a business ethics course...and the teachers were executives of the comapny! What the fuck do these people know about ETHICS?? They lied to us about our salaries!! I told them when I was being recruited that, if I was not making at least my previous wage of $10.50 an hour, I was not going to be happy. they assured me I had nothing to worry about. THEY LIED!!!

NOW, do you understand why I have such a shitty outlook on businesses, and why I believe them all to be unethical, lying assholes out to screw over workers?? BECAUSE IT WAS DONE TO ME!! AND THEY DIDN'T BOTHER TO KISS ME, OR WINE AND DINE ME...HELL, THEY DIDN'T EVEN USE ANY K-Y BEFORE THEY JAMMED THE SHAFT RIGHT UP MY ASS!!

These people fucking lied their asses off to us...to all of us! Now, you tell me, Mr Bigshot Corporate Guy...is THAT how you go about keeping employees happy, and looking out for their well-being?

Is there any such thing left as "a good employer??" If so, I wish I knew where to find him! Because I have been nothing but used, abused, and screwed over ever since that day in April, 2004, when I walked out on what was then Number 447 on Fortune 500's list. The company? Yes, I'll name it here, because they deserve every ounce of bad PR that I can give them!! The company is ACS, Incorporated...or Advanced Computer Solutions, Incorporated. Look them up at http://www.acs-inc.com

These are the bastards that fucked me and 60 other people in Austin, Texas over...and it is THEIR FAULT that I had to move back home with Mommy. If they hadn't FUCKED with my wages, chances are good I'd still be working there, because I was damn good at my job, and I loved what I did.

But they fucked with my paycheck. And I wasn't gonna take that.

Take particular note of the fact that wages are now (supposedly) keeping up with inflation, and before they were NOT. Also take note of the FACT...cited by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, in the article I cited...that the current 5.0 percent unemployment rate (which you agree with since you have, yourself cited this as a cause for saying the economy was good) is STILL HIGHER THAN THE 4.2 PERCENT RATE THAT BUSH INHERTED FROM CLINTON IN 2001.

See, you don't want the part that is in ALL-CAPS to be reported, because it puts the 5.0 percent unemployment rate into a perspective that works against the argument you are trying to build. So...only articles and sources that DON'T include the ALL-CAPS information are, to your view...unbiased. And to my view...any article that does NOT include the ALL-CAPS info is merely propaganda, to try to make Bush and the Republicans look good, when, in fact, they are doing a shitty job with domestic issues that people care about...like EMPLOYMENT.

That 4.2% is interesting, because it shot up from 3.9% in December which was the start of the uptrend in unemployment during the recession.

The economy was already deteriorating as early as mid 2000; the participation rate topped in May, e-p ratio topped in April, industrial production turned negative in September, and nonfarm payrolls turned negative in June. Combined with the fallout from the NASDAQ bursting and credit overtightening, there was nothing humanly possible Bush could have done to avert the recession. 9/11 eradicated another 1 million jobs, which only worsened the job recovery.

Employment is quite good, seeing as how all of the unemployment indicators have declined in step over the past year and a half. Participation and E-P ratio have turned upward, and hourly earnings are growing only 3 cents below their rate in 1999 and better than they were before the tech bubble began its climb.

Inflation is less than it was last year, and productivity is climbing. That translates in to lower inflation and wage slack; when productivity slows to it's normal levels, those gains in productivity result in considerable gains in wages, hiring, and living standards. We are reaching that point now.

Lastly, even during the recession the job market was stronger and unemployment lower than it's been for the past recessions.

Eichen and I also share libertarian views and have been active in this thread. Have we been condescending to you or anyone else?

"Note: I can't say all are like that. Just the ones I have met."

Well technically we have never met. ;)

Actually no you two have been proper in this diatribe.

The way he talks reminds me of my ex-friend.

In fact...here is a letter I sent to the CEO of that very company, after I resigned. As I predicted, the gutless son of a bitch didn't even bother to respond to the letter. And take note of his name...I just love it...perfect name for a CEO...

--------------------------------------------------
Mr. Jeff Rich, CEO
ACS, Incorporated

Delivery via USPS First Class Mail
Delivery Confirmation Requested

Dear Mr. Rich,
I am writing you as a former ACS employee to bring some grievances I have to your attention. In good faith, I attempted to resolve these grievances through the normal chain of command; my grievances fell upon deaf ears, and nothing was resolved. Let me mention here that I intend to air my grievances publicly, in whatever media will print the REAL story of ACS…not the self-congratulatory puff-pieces found about ACS in places like Money and Fortune Magazines! Obviously, ACS got to be a Fortune 500 company by treating its employees in an unfair manner. I intend to do my best to let the public know what kind of company ACS really is!

I was an employee of TMHP, in Austin, Texas, in the BPS data entry department. My immediate supervisor was Christina Falcon, the department head is Michael Weaver, and Michael’s boss is Charles Talbot. I addressed my grievances to all three of these individuals, as well as the on-site Human Resources personnel, in particular, Michelle Nowell.

My concerns centered on the Incentive Compensation program. I felt that the per-item rates had been set so low as to make it impossible for me to earn what I had earned previously, with Mediclaim/NHIC, before ACS was awarded the Texas Medicaid contract. This was not, however, the way the job was presented to us at the initial (and subsequent) recruitment efforts of Mediclaim/NHIC employees by ACS. Though I have nothing in writing, every co-worker I have spoken with all remembers the same thing. We were told that we had the potential to earn up to 16 dollars an hour, and that the average wage would be between eleven and thirteen dollars an hour.

I feel ACS negotiated in bad faith, knowingly and willfully misrepresenting to us our earning potential with ACS, because, when rates were initially rolled out, my average over a pay period was $8.77 an hour. I have a memo from Charles Talbot, dated 12 February 2004, which states that the average wage for that same pay period just past was close to eight dollars an hour, meaning I was above the average. Thus, my inability to earn a decent wage had nothing to do with my work skills, but rather, the greed and stinginess of ACS…and YOU. I blame YOU, as the CEO, for these unfair, unjust, and abhorrent business practices. What happened to eleven to thirteen dollars an hour?

Later, in early April of this year, new Incentive Compensation rates were set, and they were universally dropped across the board. The claim type I most commonly do had its rate nearly cut in half! Bear in mind that the old rates, which were higher, resulted in an average wage “close to eight dollars an hour.”

I would like to say I am sure that you will agree that it is not in keeping with ethical business practices for a company to make a profit at the expense of, and to the detriment of its employees. But I can’t, because lying doesn’t come very easily to me. Unlike ACS, to whom lying to employees is obviously standard operating procedure.

As unreasonable, greedy, and mean-spirited as I think you, I am pretty sure even you would agree that it is not in keeping with ethical business practices to mislead job candidates about what the compensation would be when recruiting them. Furthermore, such practices are not conducive to attracting and retaining quality, skilled people such as this job requires.

I feel ACS, by lying to us about what we could expect our compensation to be with ACS, in its recruitment efforts, knowingly and willfully denied me the ability to make a reasoned, informed, and intelligent decision concerning my own career future. There is no way any reasonable person would believe that I would walk into a situation where I was taking a two-dollar-an-hour cut in salary with my eyes open. Had ACS been honest and up-front with its intentions regarding our salary in its initial and subsequent recruiting efforts, I never would have applied for, or accepted employment with ACS. I then would have had eight months, while still working with Mediclaim/NHIC, to search for suitable alternative employment. Failing to find that, I would have had a nice, safe layoff, and unquestioned access to unemployment compensation.

I had a meeting on Wednesday, April 7 2004, with Mr. Charles Talbot, to whom I expressed these concerns. He apparently believes, and stated, that the rates are sufficiently high enough. Of course he would think so, since his salary wasn't based on it! I found that to be a fairly common thread…the only believers in Incentive Compensation were those people whose salaries were not based on it!

I disagreed with Mr. Talbot. So we agreed on a challenge. For the next two days, Thursday and Friday, we artificially created the absolute best of circumstances in my work. What this entailed was insuring that I process only one type of claim, all day, for eight hours. Previously, I had been constantly switching between applications, making it impossible to establish a rhythm. It was my assertion that, even in the best of circumstances, it was impossible to make the eleven to thirteen dollars an hour we were led to believe we would be earning. In fact, it was my assertion to Charles that with the rates set where they were, I would not be able to match (or even come close to) my salary at the previous company, which was ten dollars an hour.

For the purposes of this experiment, though I truly believe that making a decent wage is impossible, I did my level best to disprove my own assertion. I worked solidly through the day, talking with no one around me. I was very conscientious of my break and lunch times, being sure I took no more than the allotted time. I also keyed as fast, and as accurately as I could during the entire eight-hour day, both days.

The results of this two-day experiment served to bear out my assertions. My average wage was far below ten dollars an hour. I’d like to see YOU try to make a living on about seven dollars an hour, in Austin, Texas, with gasoline prices going through the roof!

Bear in mind that, while I am not the fastest data entry operator, I would certainly rank myself in the top quarter. I recently took a data entry test that showed I keyed 12,500 keystrokes per hour. Not many people could match or beat that. If the best I could earn, with that skill set, is seven dollars an hour, what does that say about what anyone else may be able to earn? As a comparison, I recently discovered that my local H-E-B grocery store starts out grocery sackers at eight dollars an hour!

For your perusal I am enclosing my resume, which shows what my skills, abilities, and previous experience are. I would like to point out that, while I was with Mediclaim/NHIC for two and a half years, I was always above the standards set for the work I did, both in terms of production, and quality. In fact, I had perfect quality for the entire year of 2003, and an overall quality rating of 99.94% gauged from the time I began my employment with Mediclaim. During this time, I was making, as I stated, ten dollars an hour.

I would like some justification on why, just because I had the misfortune to be with a company that lost the contract I was working on, I was suddenly no longer worth that ten dollars an hour, for doing the same work? I do not believe my desires were at all unreasonable; all I have ever asked for is an honest day’s pay for an honest day’s work, and for my employer to be honest and up-front in its dealings with me. Alas, this was not my experience with ACS.

Among other things, I was shorted 12 hours on my first paycheck (it took a week to resolve that discrepancy.) It took a month and a half for ACS to get my benefits cards to me; in the meantime, I was unable to visit my doctor, since I had no proof of current insurance coverage. We were also, due to severe backlog, in a state of working mandatory overtime since Christmas, with no let up in sight. Now, I do not mind working occasional overtime, but I would have liked to have some semblance of a normal life.

Yet, for all that I gave this company…for all the times I went above and beyond for this company, this is how I am thanked? By being forced to take a three-dollar per hour pay cut? By being misled or outright lied to about what the compensation for my job would be? I would not have accepted an employment offer with ACS had I known, going in, that this would be the result. I accepted a job offer, in good faith, because I was led to believe, by your recruiters, that the average salary would be between eleven and thirteen dollars per hour on the Incentive Compensation plan. Had I known the reality that I would be making three dollars an hour less than I had previously, I would have used the eight months advance notice we had to locate another job. It may interest you to know that some of your employees, working full-time for TMHP, would themselves qualify for Medicaid! Then again, probably not. You are a rich executive that doesn’t feel the pain and suffering of common employees.

In my opinion, ACS management is being penny smart and dollar foolish with these policies. It would behoove the company, in my opinion, to attract and retain the best employees, because this job requires a high degree of skill. I invested three years of my life into this job, and I feel that my three-year investment should have been taken into consideration.

My three years of experience, and my skills, which ACS could have taken advantage of, was lost when I officially resigned my position, with nothing even lined up, in late April. Since that time, several other quality employees have left the company that I know of. This will have, I believe, a deleterious effect upon ACS’s contract compliance.

I came across several obvious errors on claims that were missed by other employees in my job function as a Verify operator. The Entry operator should have fixed these errors before the claims got to Verify. They are glaring errors that the system would have flagged the Entry operator to fix. In all of these cases, the Entry operator blatantly ignored the system flags, and chose not to fix the errors. Thus the errors were passed on to me. And as a Verify operator, you get paid even less per claim than an Entry operator gets paid. This had the effect of further slowing me down, causing my salary to be even lower.

It is unfair that my income should be impacted in a negative way as a result of the carelessness of Entry operators. The reason why they are ignoring the errors is obvious. They don’t want to have to slow down to fix them! This presents a Verify operator with a Hobson’s choice: fix the error and thus be slowed down, or don’t fix the error, and then it get counted against you as well, thus lowering your salary due to a lack of quality. Either way, it is a lose/lose proposition. And it can also cause an error to get all the way through the system if no one bothers to fix it, and they don’t, because the rates are so low. This can have a deleterious effect upon ACS’s contract compliance.

In closing, I would like to say to you, when the day comes that you must meet the good Lord, and answer for your actions, that he shows you more forgiveness than I am able to. I will never forgive, nor forget, the shabby way in which your company treated me. You have broken my spirit. You have pauperized me, and likely forced me to have to move back home to Pennsylvania, with my mother, at the age of 33, making me a complete and total failure at life. You have taken everything that was ever important to me, and you have laid it all to waste. I hope you feel REAL GOOD about yourself. I hope you can sleep with yourself at night, knowing what you have done to your fellow human being.

I wish I could say I was sure that you would want to do the ethical thing and deliver to your employees what they were led to believe they would receive when they were being recruited. Unfortunately, I cannot, because I don’t believe you even care. And I do not believe you want to do business in an ethical manner. As long as you are okay, financially, why should you care about those you have hurt to get there? Am I bitter? You bet your boots I am!

I look forward to any reply you may have, that is, of course, if you even have the guts to reply! (I’m betting you don’t.) I am also willing to meet with you in person or over the telephone at any time convenient to you, to discuss these concerns, should you desire. I may be reached in a number of ways:


Contact information and name redacted.

Talk about disgruntled! Wow!

You are trained within management programs in universities on how to improve the well being of your workers. Any good employer knows that the best way to make good employees and hold on to good employees is to treat them well.

Quite often companies will enhance their business by maintaining a high quality product through high quality workers. They do this by being gracious to their employees.

I could go into a little economics, and show that, in the aggregate, consumers and workers are in fact the same people, making it impossible to screw workers in favor of the consumer.


The operative word you have used to "good"

There are more bad ones then good. Especially in the mega corps were screwups affects can be hidden/absorbed by the whole entity(that's why I prefer startups and small companies. Screwups can't hide for long).

I have seen two companies shift jobs to India and the output from their was rather dismal. Bad managers didn't hire the right people. Yet they said great things were happening over there and the company is saving a great deal of money. In this case both the employee and the customer were basically "screwed." I quote it because it was mild in the affects of those offices.....

Some companies understand the employee retention thing really well.

However, you as an employee have to remember to never think they are looking out for your interests. You always take care of your needs first. You have to remind them that you could leave. If they think you will never leave then they won't offer as many perks.

If the company isn't serving your needs or plans, then get the hell out. Find somebody who will help you achieve your desires.

The join and retire from one company days are over.

Hmmm I wonder if the "Employee Retention" battle cry is a fall out from the downsizing/rightsizing days of Regan. Employee value was reduced to a number so employee loyalty really evaporated in those days.

I still hear managers talk about the "loyalty" of employees today......

Is that so? Well, then, the CEO of the last major corporation I worked for must have missed those classes...because he and his minions LIED TO US about what we could expect our salaries to be, when he recruited us to work for his company...when they beat my current company on bidding for a contract we had been working on.

His minions assured us our salaries would not be reduced. They LIED. They told us we could make, on piece-rate, between 11 and 16 dollars an hour, and that the average would be 13 dollars an hour. Since, at the time, I was making $10.50, that sounded good to me...and so when I was offered a job, I accepted.

Then, they set the piece rate. My average wage suddenly went to just over 8 bucks an hour, and the companywide average was "nearly seven dollars an hour." What the fuck happened to 11-16 bucks, with 13 bucks being the company average? Needless to say, I was not going to accept a nearly 3 dollar an hour wage cut for doing the same work, and so I walked on their ass, and haven't had a steady job since.

And to add insult to injury?? These ass-clowns insisted that, as part of being employees of their company, we had to take a business ethics course...and the teachers were executives of the comapny! What the fuck do these people know about ETHICS?? They lied to us about our salaries!! I told them when I was being recruited that, if I was not making at least my previous wage of $10.50 an hour, I was not going to be happy. they assured me I had nothing to worry about. THEY LIED!!!

NOW, do you understand why I have such a shitty outlook on businesses, and why I believe them all to be unethical, lying assholes out to screw over workers?? BECAUSE IT WAS DONE TO ME!! AND THEY DIDN'T BOTHER TO KISS ME, OR WINE AND DINE ME...HELL, THEY DIDN'T EVEN USE ANY K-Y BEFORE THEY JAMMED THE SHAFT RIGHT UP MY ASS!!

These people fucking lied their asses off to us...to all of us! Now, you tell me, Mr Bigshot Corporate Guy...is THAT how you go about keeping employees happy, and looking out for their well-being?

Is there any such thing left as "a good employer??" If so, I wish I knew where to find him! Because I have been nothing but used, abused, and screwed over ever since that day in April, 2004, when I walked out on what was then Number 447 on Fortune 500's list. The company? Yes, I'll name it here, because they deserve every ounce of bad PR that I can give them!! The company is ACS, Incorporated...or Advanced Computer Solutions, Incorporated. Look them up at http://www.acs-inc.com

These are the bastards that fucked me and 60 other people in Austin, Texas over...and it is THEIR FAULT that I had to move back home with Mommy. If they hadn't FUCKED with my wages, chances are good I'd still be working there, because I was damn good at my job, and I loved what I did.

But they fucked with my paycheck. And I wasn't gonna take that.

OK, assuming your story is entirely true, I will make these points:

1. You have ample grounds to make a class action lawsuit to recover the wages that were promised to you.

2. The company who screwed you was obviously losing to better competition that was treating you ethically, showing that the ethical company was being rewarded for its treatment of its employees.

Talk about disgruntled! Wow!

I have to agree.

My job(s) have tended to place me near VPs and CEOs.

I can tell you from experience that attacking and placing blame didn't get you much of his attention.

There is a strong chance he went "Meh! Disgruntled employee"

There are ways to place blame with out naming individuals.

It's the honey vs vinegar thing.

I went though an anger phase when I was laid off. I quickly tossed it and moved on. I was unemployed for only 5 weeks. Which back then was remarkable. Attitude is everything.

Move on. Don't carry the baggage because it does show up when you don't expect it.

"Note: I can't say all are like that. Just the ones I have met."

Well technically we have never met. ;)

Actually no you two have been proper in this diatribe.

Good, I will keep it that way as long as you show the courtesy to not generalize all of those who share my beliefs. It is a common mistake that I make as well when I get annoyed, so it is easy to be forgiving.

The way he talks reminds me of my ex-friend.

Then your ex-friend must be a very, very poor teacher, and not the smart guy you make him out to be.

Mesa has not been able to stick to a reasonable discussion yet.

The operative word you have used to "good"

There are more bad ones then good. Especially in the mega corps were screwups affects can be hidden/absorbed by the whole entity(that's why I prefer startups and small companies. Screwups can't hide for long).

I will agree that there need to be much more open accounting reporting. Most CEOs have a great deal of pressure put on them to perform, and many will go the route of being as honest as I have to be, and do a little "accounting engineering."

These accounting tricks are not always bad, as they can strengthen the company when performed well.

I have seen two companies shift jobs to India and the output from their was rather dismal. Bad managers didn't hire the right people. Yet they said great things were happening over there and the company is saving a great deal of money. In this case both the employee and the customer were basically "screwed." I quote it because it was mild in the affects of those offices.....

It is hard to screw a customer in today's market. There are generally so many rival companies and substitutes that if you anger a consumer once, they will shy away from your product forever.

Some companies understand the employee retention thing really well.

However, you as an employee have to remember to never think they are looking out for your interests. You always take care of your needs first. You have to remind them that you could leave. If they think you will never leave then they won't offer as many perks.

If the company isn't serving your needs or plans, then get the hell out. Find somebody who will help you achieve your desires.

The join and retire from one company days are over.

Hmmm I wonder if the "Employee Retention" battle cry is a fall out from the downsizing/rightsizing days of Regan. Employee value was reduced to a number so employee loyalty really evaporated in those days.

I still hear managers talk about the "loyalty" of employees today......

Exactly, employees are not as powerless as they are often made out to be. As long as they take the proper action to take care of their own interests, they can usually come to a meeting point with the management of a company.

the problem is...all the solutions you have for "making your clients happier (and wealthier) have the effect of screwing over workers. Why don't you EVER...as a business owner...think...HOW CAN I MAKE MY EMPLOYEES HAPPIER...AND WEALTHIER...TODAY??

All business owners and managers think along those lines. This is a strawman, again building on the fallacious concept that all employers are heartless assholes who enjoy shooting themselves and their business in the foot.

I'm old enough to remember when a skilled employee was considered an asset.

Me too, but I'm probably younger than you, and my memory extends into the present time. ;)

Now, all you business owners just think of an employuee as a liability, because you have to (gasp!!!) actually PAY them!! Heaven forbid they should want to get paid a decent, livable wgae for the work they do!! How horrible of them to demand such a thing!!

You know what happens when someone says they want a certain wage but they'll settle for something less? They get something less. Oh wow! Didn't see that coming!

Your opinion of what "all you business owners" think is just that - opinion. Unless of course you're a psychic. ;) In which case you should really be in business for yourself.

And I'm still waiting for the reasons how "businesses have been proven to be unethical" etc. There are 25 million businesses in the US alone... so far you've illustrated.... ONE of them. 24,999,999 to go and maybe you'll have demonstrated proof eh? Hell, I'll be democratic. Only 12.5 million more to go and you'll have a majority. Go on, I'm waiting. ;)

I will agree that there need to be much more open accounting reporting. Most CEOs have a great deal of pressure put on them to perform, and many will go the route of being as honest as I have to be, and do a little "accounting engineering."

These accounting tricks are not always bad, as they can strengthen the company when performed well.

My only beef with the CEO's is the golden parachete. It makes sense on the table but it's often abused as it rewards failure. If I loose the company a great deal of money I would be out on my ear with 2 weeks severence and there are many who think that is overly generous.


It is hard to screw a customer in today's market. There are generally so many rival companies and substitutes that if you anger a consumer once, they will shy away from your product forever.

*coughs Microsoft coughs* :p


Exactly, employees are not as powerless as they are often made out to be. As long as they take the proper action to take care of their own interests, they can usually come to a meeting point with the management of a company.

That is the thing. The "younger" workers have the benefit of knowing that as they have seen the parents or grandparents get screwed. When I was at a certain obscenly large aerodefense company, they still had several thousand 25 year + employees. It's a certain mindset that can give you a false sense of security if you don't watch it.

A layoff story: There was a group that had a "grandfather" running college graduates. He was laid off and told the group was being disolved. They kept the group and hired 2 younger guys to run it. There were 5 people in that group and they walked over to HR and resigned. Reason: If you are going to screw over Bob(not his name) then what's to say you won't screw us over?

Somebody called Bob and told him what happened and he ended up filing an age discrimination suit against the company. I think he settled out of court and got a "nice" retirement from it.

Some managers/business owners have told me they think the company got cheated. :rolleyes:

There are good CEO's out there. Heck the last one I had was a decent guy. My interview with him was an hour talking about farming. :D I am a WAN guy......

And I'm still waiting for the reasons how "businesses have been proven to be unethical" etc. There are 25 million businesses in the US alone... so far you've illustrated.... ONE of them. 24,999,999 to go and maybe you'll have demonstrated proof eh? Hell, I'll be democratic. Only 12.5 million more to go and you'll have a majority. Go on, I'm waiting. ;)

Well Pioneer Take out was pretty crappy. Managment attitude was "hey there is somebody out there that would like your job."

Disney corporation. You are cast member and not an employee. They get to circumvent all the worker laws that way. For example, you have to be have a certain look so if you are a seik, you will not be hired as you don't have that look.

Depends on the definition of unethical. ;)

That is not balanced reporting. That's wishful thinking. I showed recent reports showing wages are up. Wages are going up in terms of inflation. No you democrats are the one one divorced from everyday concerns of regular americans.
And you've yet to source this. Despite repeated requests and the BLS's own data showing that real wages are down.

Well Pioneer Take out was pretty crappy. Managment attitude was "hey there is somebody out there that would like your job."

Disney corporation. You are cast member and not an employee. They get to circumvent all the worker laws that way. For example, you have to be have a certain look so if you are a seik, you will not be hired as you don't have that look.

Hmm. I'll have to look into those.

Make no mistake, there are unethical businesses. But that doesn't mean business has proven itself unethical, anymore than Stalin proves government is unethical.

Depends on the definition of unethical. ;)

I suppose, and that's why I generally oppose blanket generalizations, especially those couched in the form of 'proof' to be assumed as already given.

Hmm. I'll have to look into those.
I don't know if Pioneer is around anymore.

Disney still calls them cast members. Though I should specify that was at the stores which are pretty well gone(at least from my area).


I suppose, and that's why I generally oppose blanket generalizations, especially those couched in the form of 'proof' to be assumed as already given.

Generalizations?!@!??!?! ME?!?!?!? NAHHHHHHH! ;)

My only beef with the CEO's is the golden parachete. It makes sense on the table but it's often abused as it rewards failure. If I loose the company a great deal of money I would be out on my ear with 2 weeks severence and there are many who think that is overly generous.

*coughs Microsoft coughs* :p

That is the thing. The "younger" workers have the benefit of knowing that as they have seen the parents or grandparents get screwed. When I was at a certain obscenly large aerodefense company, they still had several thousand 25 year + employees. It's a certain mindset that can give you a false sense of security if you don't watch it.

A layoff story: There was a group that had a "grandfather" running college graduates. He was laid off and told the group was being disolved. They kept the group and hired 2 younger guys to run it. There were 5 people in that group and they walked over to HR and resigned. Reason: If you are going to screw over Bob(not his name) then what's to say you won't screw us over?

Somebody called Bob and told him what happened and he ended up filing an age discrimination suit against the company. I think he settled out of court and got a "nice" retirement from it.

Some managers/business owners have told me they think the company got cheated. :rolleyes:

There are good CEO's out there. Heck the last one I had was a decent guy. My interview with him was an hour talking about farming. :D I am a WAN guy......

You have killed our discussion as I am in complete agreement with everything you said.

I am rather impressed with the actions of those employees who resigned, though. That takes a lot of vision and a lot of balls.

And you've yet to source this. Despite repeated requests and the BLS's own data showing that real wages are down.

That's where it gets difficult. You have to dig in to the Real Earnings report to find the statistics; the areas that have seen the strongest wage growth have been:

Information +0.3%
Education/Health Services
Professional/Business +0.6%
Utilities +0.8%

It must be noted these four sectors are the highest paying of the wage-earning sectors of the economy.

The overall manufacturing sector gained 0.1%, and private services gained 0.1%. The decline in real earnings is due to falling wages in Transportation, Construction, and Hospitality/Leisure/Other Services.

However these statistics are somwhat different on a weekly scale, which suggests a decline in the amount of overtime pay offered (the Information sector notably); however, many sectors experienced stronger weekly gains despite having hourly wage slowdown, which signals increased overtime pay.

http://stats.bls.gov/news.release/realer.t02.htm

That being said, the growth in wages in hourly wage-paying jobs is slower than that in white collar jobs, which is stronger. That means a growing income gap, one that has been accelerating since the beginning of the 90's boom.

That's where it gets difficult. You have to dig in to the Real Earnings report to find the statistics; the areas that have seen the strongest wage growth have been:

Information +0.3%
Education/Health Services
Professional/Business +0.6%
Utilities +0.8%

It must be noted these four sectors are the highest paying of the wage-earning sectors of the economy.

The overall manufacturing sector gained 0.1%, and private services gained 0.1%. The decline in real earnings is due to falling wages in Transportation, Construction, and Hospitality/Leisure/Other Services.

However these statistics are somwhat different on a weekly scale, which suggests a decline in the amount of overtime pay offered (the Information sector notably); however, many sectors experienced stronger weekly gains despite having hourly wage slowdown, which signals increased overtime pay.

http://stats.bls.gov/news.release/realer.t02.htm

That being said, the growth in wages in hourly wage-paying jobs is slower than that in white collar jobs, which is stronger. That means a growing income gap, one that has been accelerating since the beginning of the 90's boom.
I found one :D. You've found another. We've yet to see one that contradicts my statement that real wages are declining.

I found one :D. You've found another. We've yet to see one that contradicts my statement that real wages are declining.

I agree that RW are declining for some, but not all workers.

Real wages are declining for the lower end of the scale, but climbing steadily for the white collar workers. Of course, this leads to huge imbalances in income, and could lead to serious economic problems if the lower class becomes overburdened with debt, as they have been forced to.

Note: All of these are real growth numbers

At present, the wage growth for the Business sector (in the productivity report) is about 2% from 2003-2005, with 3.6% quarter over quarter growth 2004-2005.

Growth in the overall Nonfarm sector is 1.7%.

Growth in manufacturing is -1.3%; this is skewered, however, by a huge contraction of 13.1% in Q1 2004. This year, it's been 4.7% in Q1 and 2.3% in Q2. This is due to strong growth in output, although it would be stronger if hours wern't declining.

Nondurable manufacturing (things that last less than 3 years on average) grew 1.2% on average in 2003-2004, with growth looking like 3-4% in 2005.

Nonfinancial corporation costs rose 1.3% 2003-2004, with growth of about 3% projected in 2005 (provided growth doesn't slow too much)

Thus, what is happening is clear (at least to me reading the report):

The productivity growth of 2001-2004 was some of the biggest in decades. Companies were able to cut workers and grow their businesses with the cost savings. However, now that productivity is slowing, it shows that companies' growth is exceeding the capacity of their current workforce, and so they will begin hiring and increasing wages to attract employees. This is why wage growth has picked up in Q1/Q2, and monthly nonfarm payrolls have accelerated to 191,000 average per month.

The productivity gains have created a huge amount of slack in wages and hiring, and so we will likely see a period of fast, real growth in both as these two components catch up to productivity and normalize the situation. Effectively, this is the product of the Internet boom.

Sorry about the huge post, here's the actual report:

http://stats.bls.gov/news.release/prod2.nr0.htm

the problem is...all the solutions you have for "making your clients happier (and wealthier) have the effect of screwing over workers. Why don't you EVER...as a business owner...think...HOW CAN I MAKE MY EMPLOYEES HAPPIER...AND WEALTHIER...TODAY??

OMG, the conceit in your statement is baffling. To ask one simple question-- Why haven't you hired anyone and payed them living wages?

I'll tell you why I can't-- Because I can't afford to. It's that simple, nothing more or less. I do have to live, pay rent and bills, take care of a puppy, and support my Grndmother who raised my brother and myself.
I can pay someone with a high level of motivation and talent a decent wage overseas, but nobody here in the US (short of a hack) would lift a finger for $10/hr for what we do. Last time I checked, $10/hr was a very livable wage here in Tampa. I have plenty of friends making less than what I pay my overseas contractors (I don't have any "employees" as I'm the sole proprietor). If people aren't willing to work for a decent wage you can afford to pay them, someone else will step up and take that position.
I'd personally love to hire someone in the USA whom I could afford to call and talk to personally, instead of just email.

I own a small business (like almost all business owners). I'm not a multinational corporation. I am not the appropriate target for your proletariat outrage. I'm a dude trying to make ends meet, just like you. Stop being so naive. Most business owners (that means small business owners) are decent, hard working individuals who contribute a lot to their communities, charities and families.

Remember, you sound just like Rush Limbaugh having a frothing-mouth anxiety attack over the liberals. When you try to demonize an entire group of people (especially a very large group) with blanket statements and exaggerated steretypes, you just sound paranoid and neurotic. Or very maladjusted and angry. You should be able to do better.

Is that so? Well, then, the CEO of the last major corporation I worked for must have missed those classes...because he and his minions LIED TO US about what we could expect our salaries to be, when he recruited us to work for his company...when they beat my current company on bidding for a contract we had been working on.

His minions assured us our salaries would not be reduced. They LIED. They told us we could make, on piece-rate, between 11 and 16 dollars an hour, and that the average would be 13 dollars an hour. Since, at the time, I was making $10.50, that sounded good to me...and so when I was offered a job, I accepted.

Then, they set the piece rate. My average wage suddenly went to just over 8 bucks an hour, and the companywide average was "nearly seven dollars an hour." What the fuck happened to 11-16 bucks, with 13 bucks being the company average? Needless to say, I was not going to accept a nearly 3 dollar an hour wage cut for doing the same work, and so I walked on their ass, and haven't had a steady job since.

And to add insult to injury?? These ass-clowns insisted that, as part of being employees of their company, we had to take a business ethics course...and the teachers were executives of the comapny! What the fuck do these people know about ETHICS?? They lied to us about our salaries!! I told them when I was being recruited that, if I was not making at least my previous wage of $10.50 an hour, I was not going to be happy. they assured me I had nothing to worry about. THEY LIED!!!

NOW, do you understand why I have such a shitty outlook on businesses, and why I believe them all to be unethical, lying assholes out to screw over workers?? BECAUSE IT WAS DONE TO ME!! AND THEY DIDN'T BOTHER TO KISS ME, OR WINE AND DINE ME...HELL, THEY DIDN'T EVEN USE ANY K-Y BEFORE THEY JAMMED THE SHAFT RIGHT UP MY ASS!!

These people fucking lied their asses off to us...to all of us! Now, you tell me, Mr Bigshot Corporate Guy...is THAT how you go about keeping employees happy, and looking out for their well-being?

Is there any such thing left as "a good employer??" If so, I wish I knew where to find him! Because I have been nothing but used, abused, and screwed over ever since that day in April, 2004, when I walked out on what was then Number 447 on Fortune 500's list. The company? Yes, I'll name it here, because they deserve every ounce of bad PR that I can give them!! The company is ACS, Incorporated...or Advanced Computer Solutions, Incorporated. Look them up at http://www.acs-inc.com

These are the bastards that fucked me and 60 other people in Austin, Texas over...and it is THEIR FAULT that I had to move back home with Mommy. If they hadn't FUCKED with my wages, chances are good I'd still be working there, because I was damn good at my job, and I loved what I did.

But they fucked with my paycheck. And I wasn't gonna take that.
Well, now at least I understand why you've been debating using your emotions over reason. I agree with you, it sounds like you got screwed, without the courtesy of a reacharound. That's why I started my own business-- I didn't want to wind up as another cog in some major corp's stock game. Lucky I got smart to this relatively young.

I feel for you, I really do. But your rage against "business owners" is unfounded. Something like 80% or more of your business owners are regular, middle class mom & pop type shops, struggling entrepreneurs, and freelance creative types like myself.

If you're pissed at huge multinationals, just say so. But don't group the lion with the lamb. Really, there are plenty of good employers around (even if you have to search like hell to find them). Hell, I pay my overseas contractors more than your company was willing to pay you, and I guarantee that they have an enormous amount of resources that I can't even imagine. The percentage of what I make to what I pay is massive in comparison (usually about 35-50% of the total for the project).

I understand your rage, but you should see why I'm a bit offended by your generalizations.

*snip*
I don't claim that all real wages are falling either. That's a silly statement, even in the depths of depression some sectors come out ahead. I do, however say that they are falling on average.


The internet 'boom' was nothing but. Really, nothing was created, nothing was lost. Unemployment stayed the same from the start of the 'boom' as it was at the end, stripping away the false growth of the dot coms.

I don't claim that all real wages are falling either. That's a silly statement, even in the depths of depression some sectors come out ahead. I do, however say that they are falling on average.

The internet 'boom' was nothing but. Really, nothing was created, nothing was lost. Unemployment stayed the same from the start of the 'boom' as it was at the end, stripping away the false growth of the dot coms.

You're not suggesting the economy is like the one during the Depression, are you? :D

Not all of the growth was lost; the dot-com bubble was very similar to the railroads of the early 1800's. There was a bubble, and people spent tons of money building the lines (much like money was spent laying fiber optic cable) only to have it burst due to poor business models. However, the railroads that survived prospered, and gave way to a new crowd of profitable and proven companies that changed the way people lived their lives. The economic effects were staggering and created millions of jobs in new industries both in railroads and related sectors. The internet is doing the same thing, and the real, sustainable boom is some time in the near future. It's amazing to see how much it has changed the lives of people around the world, and this is only the beginning.

Talk about disgruntled! Wow!

Bet your ass I was disgruntled when I wrote it. Can you blame me?

Fact is...I'M STILL DISGRUNTLED OVER IT, BECAUSE I HAVE YET TO SEE THE BASTARDS PAY FOR THE WAY THEY TREATED ME!!! I want justice!!

In fact, that letter took me most of a night to compose. It started out as

Dear Jeff Rich, you lousy, lying son of a bitch....

And I eventually managed to clean it up. But the gutless wonder never bothered to respond. And I'm not surprised.

See, CEO's don't care. If they did, he'd have read the letter, and met with me, to find out exactly WHY I was disgruntled, and what could be done to rectify the situation.

Well, now at least I understand why you've been debating using your emotions over reason. I agree with you, it sounds like you got screwed, without the courtesy of a reacharound. That's why I started my own business-- I didn't want to wind up as another cog in some major corp's stock game. Lucky I got smart to this relatively young.

I feel for you, I really do. But your rage against "business owners" is unfounded. Something like 80% or more of your business owners are regular, middle class mom & pop type shops, struggling entrepreneurs, and freelance creative types like myself.

If you're pissed at huge multinationals, just say so. But don't group the lion with the lamb. Really, there are plenty of good employers around (even if you have to search like hell to find them). Hell, I pay my overseas contractors more than your company was willing to pay you, and I guarantee that they have an enormous amount of resources that I can't even imagine. The percentage of what I make to what I pay is massive in comparison (usually about 35-50% of the total for the project).

I understand your rage, but you should see why I'm a bit offended by your generalizations.


Is that so? Then, what type of business are you in...can you train, and are you hiring? I'd be happy making what I HAD been making before, about $10.50 an hour. And Pennsylvania is probably a shitpile closer to you than wherever you're currently hiring people from!

I'm pissed off about being lied to and cheated. A year and a half ago this happened...and I'M STILL PISSED OFF ABOUT IT!!

Why? Because I have yet to see the assholes who did this to me and my co-workers PAY for what they did!! I want to see them PAY...I want to see them HURT...In short, I WANT TO GET EVEN!!

See, CEO's don't care. If they did, he'd have read the letter, and met with me, to find out exactly WHY I was disgruntled, and what could be done to rectify the situation.

CEOs aren't paid to care. They are paid to increase the net value of the shareholders (owners) of the company. Their job is to increase the long standing value of the company so that his employers are making money, just like you.

CEOs aren't paid to care. They are paid to increase the net value of the shareholders (owners) of the company. Their job is to increase the long standing value of the company so that his employers are making money, just like you.

and if something is happening that is jeopardizing that goal (like a slew of disgruntled workers) then it IS his job to investigate and fix the problem. I was far from the first quality employee from the former company to walk out over the wage problem...and I was also far from the last one to walk out over it.

I just was the only one, that I know of, who bothered to write directly to the CEO to vent my grievances, since they were ignored on all other levels.

Losing as many quality employees as that company did, as I pointed out in the letter, would have a deleterious effect upon the company's ability to maintain contract compliance...and without that compliance, the contract could be pulled at any time, and let's see what happens to their share value if that contract was ever pulled!

Incidentally, it was a State contract we were talking about...and so, after I quit, I went to see my State Representative, to alert him as to what was going on in the company, and the deleterious effect it could have upon ACS's ability to meet contract compliance. This, of course, got my State Rep very interested in looking at, and scrutinizing the progress this company was making on contract compliance.

Bet your ass I was trying to make the company lose the contract! My revenge! And I hope that, in the end, what I did DOES cause them to not get their contract renewed when it comes up in 2007. Yep. I went to my state Representative, trying to set the wheels in motion to get the contract pulled from that company! You don't fuck with me the way they did and get away with it! I'm not a nice person to cross, if I have to, I'll play dirty to get my revenge!

And I do not forgive...and I do not forget...and I do not let ANYTHING go until I have gotten my pound of flesh...until I have gotten my revenge. And I WILL get it. One day, I don't care how, I will get my revenge!

Even if it takes me ten years, I will get it. Even if it comes in the form of me making it all the way thru law school, and then taking on a case against my former company (and I'd do it pro-bono) and looking across the aisle at them and saying, remember the person you screwed over and kicked around back there in Austin Texas?? Well, she's back now, and she's gonna bite you in the ass!!

One way or another, I WILL GET EVEN!! NOBODY fucks me over like that and gets away with it.

Oh...and if you want an example, just so you know I'm not just breathing hot air, talking about revenge??

I took a former employer to court once, over employment discrimination (which is the hardest thing to prove in a court of law.) I won the case on an administrative level, and got appealed. I won on the Appellate level, and got appealed again. This time, we finally settled...after FIVE YEARS of back-and-forth. And I did it all pro-se, that is, acting as my own attorney!

The last year of the case, after four years of going it alone, pro-se...a Deputy Attorney General from the State of New Jersey signed onto my case, pro-bono...I guess he wanted to make a name for himself, and he felt I was in the right. Anyway, my case was precedent-setting, which is one reason it took so long. I was using existing law, and interpreting it in a way that it had never before been interpreted, to cover a previously non-covered minority group.

There never was any argument over the reasons for my separation from the employer, we both agreed on that. The only dispute was over the legality of it...they maintained it was legal, I held a different view. They maintained that my group was not covered under Federal law. And they were correct. I maintained that, where civil rights are concerned, Federal sets the FLOOR, and not the CEILING...that States and municipalities could protect above and beyond what Federal would.

The State ended up agreeing with me on two different levels. Later, my case was cited in another case before the New Jersey Supreme court, and upheld, so my name is no longer on the case law. That later led to New Jersey passing legislation specifically to protect my particular minority group, so that there would BE no question, in the future, about the legality of what was done to me.

In the end, I settled the case for nearly everything I had been going after in the first place, and taught that company a lesson - you don't screw with me! Because I WILL get mine in the end.

As it was, I ended up settling the case after five years, for most of what I was after (the only thing I did not get was an apology and an admission of guilt.)

So you understand that I'm not just blowing hot air...in the end, I always get mine!

I am, of course, by the terms of the settlement, forbidden to disclose the name of the employer, or the amount that was settled for. So that is a bit unsatisfying. But, in the end, I got most of what I was after, and it wasn't worth another fiver years of legal wrangling to get the rest of it.

And, my case set the groundwork for the law eventually passed, which will serve to ensure that what happened to me, will never happen to anyone else...at least, not in New Jersey! and if it does, they will have clear legal recourse...which is more than I had!

Like I said, I'm a bulldog. I clamp my teeth into something and I do NOT let go...not until I have gotten my pound of flesh. And so help me, ACS will eventually pay for what they did to me. But, until then, I am NO going to give up, and I am not going to let it go...and I will not forgive or forget.