NationStates Jolt Archive

Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma bombings are often presented as a proof that there exists christian terrorism and somehow this christian fundamentalist terrorism poses the same threat as pan islamist terrorism and so we cannot focus on islamist terrorism because there exists this christian terrorism too.

But people often miss the connection between McVeigh, Nichols and Ramzi Yusef.

Specifically, in 1998, during the trials, Timothy McVeigh's lawyer, Stephen Jones, had broached the existence of a videotaped interview with the co-founder of the Abu Sayyaf terrorist group, (an AQ franchise in Philippines). The Abu Sayyaf leader, Edwin Angeles, had turned police informant in February 1995 (a couple months before the Oklahoma bombing), becoming, in the words of Richard Parry of The Independent, "a deep penetration agent of the Marines and the Philippine National Police."

According to Jones, Angeles had informed the Philippine police that he had attended a series of meetings in the early '90's with Ramzi Yousef and an American who Jones was able to identify as Terry Nichols. Nichols, married at the time to a Philippine woman, had made a series of trips to the Philippines - without his wife - visiting the very areas where Abu Sayyaf predominated. Jones also argued that it was Nichols who was the operative brains behind the Oklahoma bombing.

Richard Clarke in his book "Against All Enemies," says
We do know that Nichols' bombs did not work before his Philippine stay, and were deadly when he returned.

In "Mega Fix" a DVD about Olkahama bombing there is more details, such as

Ramzi Yousef coming to Jersey City in 1993. He arrives to show the aspiring local Islamic terrorists how to build a truck bomb. His target is the World Trade Center. His goal is to kill 250,000 people when one of the twin towers topples into the other, and the bomb discharges its cyanide gas.

Fortunately, the cyanide evaporates in the blast, and the towers hold. A disappointed Yousef boards a plane that afternoon and heads back to the Middle East.

November 1994, Yousef applies for a visa to the Philippines. On the next day, Terry Nichols of Oklahoma City fame receives a visa for the Philippines.

On the way to the airport two weeks later, Nichols unnerves his ex-wife, Lana, when he hands her a sealed package and tells her, "If I'm not back in 60 days, open it and follow the instructions." Curious, Lana opens the package only to find a will, Nichol's life insurance policy, and instructions that lead her to $20,000 in cash.

Two weeks after Nichols' arrival, Ramzi Yousef boards a Philippines Airline flight in Manila and plants a small practice bomb. The bomb kills the Japanese tourist who takes his seat after Yousef had disembarked in – of all places – Cebu City ... the city where Terry Nichols was staying.

A month later, January 1995, Yousef has to flee his Manila apartment after setting it on fire while building bombs. When his roommate – a Pakistani pilot, Abdul Hakim Murad – returns to the apartment to retrieve Yousef's laptop, he's arrested.

Under intense questioning, Murad reveals Yousef's Bojinka plot, a plan to blow up a dozen American airliners over the Pacific. He also reveals a post-Bojinka plan to hijack commercial airliners or use small planes filled with explosives to attack specific American targets, the pilots for which are in training at American flight schools. The Philippine police even make a flow chart connecting many of the key players together, including Osama bin Laden, Ramzi Yousef and 9-11 mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, Yousef's uncle. Philippine authorities turn over all of this information to U.S. authorities by early 1995.

The authorities nab Yousef in Pakistan a few weeks later.

As to Terry Nichols, he beats it back to the United States. When Lana asks him why he had come back so soon, he tells her cryptically, "Somebody could get killed down there."
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40547
For more , watch the DVD.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1081919/posts

Did Nichols and Yousef meet?

Did Nichols and Yousef meet? Closer analysis of Terry Nichols and Ramzi Yousef timelines creates a compelling, if still circumstantial, case — and offers clues to where the smoking guns may be found By J.M. BERGER INTELWIRE.com

In November 1994, Terry Nichols and Ramzi Yousef both walked on the grounds of the same college campus in the Philippines. Whether their paths crossed is a question that still dogs researchers. But it's increasingly clear that what separates their respective itineraries is sometimes a matter of yards, feet or even inches, within a span of days, hours and sometimes mere minutes.

They even booked travel on the same airline, on the same route and apparently on the same day — the exact date Yousef planned to unleash a massive September 11-style attack on the United States.

It's unclear what it will take to officially draw a line directly connecting the two most notorious terrorist attacks of the 1990s — the 1993 World Trade Center bombing masterminded by Yousef, and the Oklahoma City bombing, which Nichols was convicted of assisting (the exact extent of his involvement is still the subject of an ongoing criminal prosecution).

While a substantial amount of myth and misinformation surrounds Nichols and his possible connections to al Qaeda terrorists, the provable facts in the case are shocking enough in context, and perhaps even convincing merely on the sheer volume of the circumstances involved.

Although such connections have not yet been proven by a "smoking gun" piece of incontrovertible physical evidence, there is ample evidence to support continued attention and investigation by enterprising journalists. Unlike many so-called "conspiracy theories," the question of whether al Qaeda had some degree of involvement with the Oklahoma City bombing seems well within the reach of a credible investigation.

The most compelling evidence surrounds a visit to the Philippines by Nichols from November 1994 through January 1995. While he and McVeigh were presumably in the thick of planning the Oklahoma City bombing, Nichols simply dropped everything in his life and went to the Philippines on a trip that he believed would endanger his life.

When he arrived in the Philippines, Nichols showed up unannounced on the campus of Southwestern University, a Cebu City college with a strong Islamic fundamentalist movement where his wife was attending classes. Yousef visited the campus during the same period. Another of Yousef's accomplices made phone calls to a friend on the campus during the same period. And two more al Qaeda operatives may have had business connections to the lumberyard where Nichols and his wife stayed during the visit.

According to his visa records and trial testimony, Nichols was planning to return on January 21, 1995, the same day that Ramzi Yousef planned to bomb almost a dozen U.S.-bound airliners simultaneously over the Pacific Ocean and possibly crash a hijacked airplane into the Pentagon or CIA headquarters.

A note Nichols left behind "for the purpose of my death" expressed concern that he might die before returning from the winter trip, and included specific instructions on how to handle his money if his life insurance refused to pay out "for some reason."

Nichols was carrying stun guns on his person when he flew out of the U.S. When he flew back to the U.S., he was on a Northwest Airlines route out of Manilla that terminated in Los Angeles, matching one of the flights targeted by Yousef.

As incredible as the proposition may sound to some, there is a strongly compelling basis to further investigate the possibility that Nichols was recruited to as an al Qaeda operative for Yousef's Bojinka plan, a direct precursor to the September 11 attack on America.

Are you trying to say that there is no such connection between christianity and terrorism?

If so, I label you very naieve.
You should check out connections to some of the more extreme white supremecist movements.
Read "The Turner Diaries".

The information above is certainly, compelling, but not solid proof, even if its from a reliable source
It can tie Al-Qeada to the same city and time frame Nichols was in, but it does not tie him to al-qeada.
I wouldnt be surpised, mind you, but if McVeighs attitudes were akin to Nichols, his reasons were closer to the sinister intentions outlined in "The Turner Diaries."

Racial Holy Wars, and that sort of bile.

I am not saying anything remotely like that.

I am pointing to the connection between Ramzi Yusef and Nichols/McVeigh. It is clear that Nichols took training in Philippines and as Richard Clark says, that's what made him a lethal bomber.

Hey does anybody else wanna post random stuff and link the IRA to islamic terrorism? Maybe we can even relate it to the French WWII resistance ...

Are you trying to say that there is no such connection between christianity and terrorism?

If so, I label you very naieve.
You should check out connections to some of the more extreme white supremecist movements.
Read "The Turner Diaries".

The information above is certainly, compelling, but not solid proof, even if its from a reliable source
It can tie Al-Qeada to the same city and time frame Nichols was in, but it does not tie him to al-qeada.
I wouldnt be surpised, mind you, but if McVeighs attitudes were akin to Nichols, his reasons were closer to the sinister intentions outlined in "The Turner Diaries."

Racial Holy Wars, and that sort of bile.

(checks outside-no the moon has not turned to the colour of blood...) I agree with Squatches here-McVeigh and Nichols were about the most successful members of our local crop of domestic terrorist types. It wouldn't surprise me if Terry was trying to make a hookup with other, more experienced and knowledgeable terrorists, but it's unlikely that he was ever affiliated with Al-Quaeda.

Don't fool yourself, kiddies, it's easy to blame someone else when you're a compleat failure as a human being. Tim and Terry were probably the most successful thus far of their little subkulture of narcissistic, psychotic asshats.

Being a psychotic asshat doesn't, unfortunately, make one totally incompetent-Tim and Terry managed to kill an awful lot of people with an improvised bomb using methods they'd seen in the Movies and heard about in gossip.
But that doesn't mean they were understudies of Abu Sayyaf or Osama. It's more likely they were understudies of that fuckhead in Idaho, and connisuers of cheesy action movies.
all indicators were,t hat they intended to get away with it, after all.

I am not saying anything remotely like that.

I am pointing to the connection between Ramzi Yusef and Nichols/McVeigh. It is clear that Nichols took training in Philippines and as Richard Clark says, that's what made him a lethal bomber.


So what?

Are you trying to say that it was Al-Qeada who helped blow up the Federal Building in Oklahoma?

They may have learned to make fertilizer bombs in the Philipines, who knows?
But I highly doubt that Al-Qeada was working with Nichols, or McVeigh in their actions.
Theres just no proof, although there is proof to indicate McVeighs racial beliefs,a nd his desire for "RoHoWa".

Hey does anybody else wanna post random stuff and link the IRA to islamic terrorism?
Actually, such links do exist. I recall reports about IRA people caught in Israel while training bomb makers and snipers for Hamas. They have also been know to have ties to Libya's Gaddafi and the Colombian FARC terrorists.

Many non-Islamic terrorist groups have ties with the Islamist ones. The German RAF committed terrorist attacks in cooperation with Palestinians, and received training in Iraq. The Japanese Red Army has a solid base in Lebanon and was involved in attacks on Israel.

I am not saying that McVeigh and Nichols took orders from Osama. :rolleyes:

I am just pointing to the connections between them and Ramzi , and what I wanted to emphasize was the existence of training camps in lands held in control of islamists. That is what is making a crude bomber into a lethal bomber (be it be a christian one or any other creed). I guess I botched it all up.

I still think that there is a connection between the two, Nichols must have taken training at an Abu Sayyaf school. That is the point I wished to make. Not some random connection between "french resistance in WWII" :rolleyes:

I am not saying that McVeigh and Nichols took orders from Osama. :rolleyes:

I am just pointing to the connections between them and Ramzi , and what I wanted to emphasize was the existence of training camps in lands held in control of islamists. That is what is making a crude bomber into a lethal bomber (be it be a christian one or any other creed). I guess I botched it all up.

I still think that there is a connection between the two, Nichols must have taken training at an Abu Sayyaf school. That is the point I wished to make. Not some random connection between "french resistance in WWII" :rolleyes:

I think it far more likely that Nichols, may have recived a few lessons from such an expert demolitionist, but his brief stay, probably didnt allow for time at any such "school".
and as far as I know, Nichols didnt speak any other languages besides English.

Actually, such links do exist. I recall reports about IRA people caught in Israel while training bomb makers and snipers for Hamas. They have also been know to have ties to Libya's Gaddafi and the Colombian FARC terrorists.

Care to provide the links? Those would make interesting reading if you can provide them.


The Japanese Red Army has a solid base in Lebanon and was involved in attacks on Israel.

The Japanese Red Army? According to this, they were losing power in the 1990s and considered ineffective as a terrorist group (removed from list) in 2000

http://www.tkb.org/Group.jsp?groupID=59

Care to provide the links? Those would make interesting reading if you can provide them.
I've had some. They seem no longer active though. But (http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/07/14/mideast.irish.arrest/) here's one. I don't remember how that story ended and whether he was in fact a bomb maker trainer, but this part of the article is all hard facts:

IRA members are frequently linked to militant groups, and some Roman Catholic neighborhoods in Northern Ireland -- as well as the Republic of Ireland -- fly the Palestinian flag alongside Irish ones, with slogans daubed on walls.

Three alleged IRA-linked members are currently on trial in Colombia accused of training Marxist rebels in terrorist techniques.


Here (http://www.profilesinterror.com/updates/2004_02_15_archive.html) is another interesting read on the matter:

the IRA is well-connected to nasty folks in the Middle East. The IRA goes way back with the PLO. Irish terrorists trained in Palestinian camps in Lebanon, Libya, and Yemen. Those links remain effective, rhetorically the IRA remains loudly supportive of Arafat and the PLO and operational links are also apparently intact. After the fighting in Jenin, a British explosives expert noted the similarity in tactics and bomb designs discovered in Jenin to those in Belfast. In another incident, in March 2002, a sniper killed 10 Israeli soldiers at a checkpoint. The sniper left his rifle behind – an IRA trademark.

The Palestinian terror groups are linked to Hezbollah, which in turn is a link to terrorism throughout the Muslim world. At the same time, the IRA’s international activities aren’t limited to the Middle East. In August 2001, 3 IRA operatives were arrested in Columbia, where they were training the FARC in bomb design. This indicates that the IRA is more than ready to share its expertise. While a grand Green-Green alliance may not be likely, it is perfectly reasonable to assume that IRA operatives will support other terrorist activities around the world.


The Japanese Red Army? According to this, they were losing power in the 1990s and considered ineffective as a terrorist group (removed from list) in 2000
I only brought them up to illustrate that alliances between Muslim and non-Muslim terror organizations are not at all uncommon.

Terrorists tend to have a lot in common. The Baader-Meinhof gang (German anarchist socialist terrorists in the 70s) trained with Lebanese terrorists. That doesn't really mean that they have anything in common with Islamism other than a desire to blow people up.

I, too, have over time seen enough 'evidence' on the internet to lead me to believe that links between foreign and domestic terror groups exist. I have been personally told by a law enforcement friend, who was involved in the situation, of weapons (including an M-2 MG) and explosives being supplied to a US domestic group by foreign terrorist types. I'm sorry, I can't share that information, but it's bonafide.

I am not saying anything remotely like that.

I am pointing to the connection between Ramzi Yusef and Nichols/McVeigh. It is clear that Nichols took training in Philippines and as Richard Clark says, that's what made him a lethal bomber.
It's not clear at all--it's a lot of supposition and possibility. I'm not saying it didn't happen or that there's no connection--just saying that the connection isn't as clear as you're arguing it is, especially the way you're paraphrasing Richard Clarke. I read his book--he was very careful in the way he phrased that, anad it's clear from the context that he has nothing more than a vague hunch that there may have possibly been a connection.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. The Palestinians largely looked at Hitler and his anti-Semetic views as an ally in thier own quest to drive the British and the Zionists out of Palestine to create thier own state there- apparently without thinking about how Hitlers ideas on racial purity and world domination would eventually come down on them, had he won the war. The IRA and the PLO have a few things in common, namely they see each other as occupied and oppressed by foreign powers, so sure, they compared notes and trained each other on what does and doesn't work. It is even reputed (I have no credible evidence) that the Soviet Union provided tens of thousands of Kalashnikov rifles and ammunition to the IRA, which may (if it happened) be buried all over Ireland. Did the Irish like the Soviets? Probably not, but a free rifle is a free rifle.
In the same way, the US supported the Mujahadeen against the Soviets. Neither side really liked each other, but each side used the other for thier own gain.
Proving that McVeigh and Nichols had training from Muslim terrorists would not be easy, they tend not to keep reciepts and video thier conversations. Is it plausible? Certainly. Likely? A little less. Were thier means effective, no matter who they got them from? Absolutely. And if they did receive training, they used it towards thier own ideological aims, not those of others.

I've always found it weird that white supremacist "Christian-Identity" terrorists sympathize with Islamist terrorists. Hell, after 9/11 I heard that some white supremacists were pleased with the attack on "Jew York".

I've always found it weird that white supremacist "Christian-Identity" terrorists sympathize with Islamist terrorists. Hell, after 9/11 I heard that some white supremacists were pleased with the attack on "Jew York".

Well, they share a common enemy; they both hate the Jews more than they hate each other. If there were no Jews, they'd go after the Muslims, or the blacks, or Catholics, or anyone else who doesn't fit their twisted vision.

Ah yes. McVeigh was really Al-Qaeda. I guess that would make the KKK, The Order, The American Nazis and the abortion clinic bombers the only right-wing, "christian" terrorists, or does Osama run them too?