NationStates Jolt Archive

IF its possible we would like to keep the posts to just European persons if possible :)

right well its a much heated topic recently and we will, hopefully, way up the pro's and cons of the situation and come to a sensible conclusion. We of cousre plan to touch upon not only Britains presence in the EU but also the other EU members. I hope that this is th efirs of amny in a long line of debate threads hosted by my "worldly aclaimed think tank". Enjoy :)

*bump*

Personal thoughts: I'd prefer not to be part of the EU, particularly while countries like France and Germany are allowed to ignore its rules when they feel like it.

Personal thoughts: I'd prefer not to be part of the EU, particularly while countries like France and Germany are allowed to ignore its rules when they feel like it.

Thats a good point, it seems that its ok for france and germany to bend and brke the rules but not britain..oh no no no mon deu!

Personal thoughts: I'd prefer not to be part of the EU, particularly while countries like France and Germany are allowed to ignore its rules when they feel like it.

But what if we could break the rules whenever we felt like it too? Wouldn't that be great?

Seriously, though, all coalitions rely on negotiation, because most international economic deals either benefit one party more than the other (once back in a position of power the latter will want equality restoring, which of course the former will resist) or eventually grow stale as politics and international relations change. Disagreements are only to be expected, and should not cause bad blood amongst inhabitants of the nations involved in the deals.

Since most Eoropean citizens have never been offered the opportunity of voting for the EU, and on the rare occaision they are allowed to, in the main, they vote against it, we can see it has no legitimate democratic mandate, and anyone who wishes to ignore it's outpouring of bureaucratic claptrap is entirely justified.

But what if we and should not cause bad blood amongst inhabitants of the nations involved in the deals.

or at least not more so than there is already ..grrr spain!

on a seriouse note....should britain join the EU?

Since most Eoropean citizens have never been offered the opportunity of voting for the EU, and on the rare occaision they are allowed to, in the main, they vote against it, we can see it has no legitimate democratic mandate, and anyone who wishes to ignore it's outpouring of bureaucratic claptrap is entirely justified.

Ask people to vote for tax rises to fund higher-quality public services or tax cuts to "improve their quality of life" until they are robbed, injured or set alight, and they won't take the right option until their emergency services are at breaking point.

Edmund: Britain is in the EU.

or at least not more so than there is already ..grrr spain!

on a seriouse note....should britain join the EU?

It already has

It already has

yes but should we fully join it..as in get the euro etc?

You mean the Eurozone I guess. No. The World Bank is discounting Greek & Italian Euro-Scrip, and there's growing pressure in Italy for them to restore the Lire. Different countries run at different paces according to their national character, and trying to chain them together in some sort of wierd financial three legged race hasn't done anyone any good.

"Ask people to vote for tax rises to fund higher-quality public services or tax cuts to "improve their quality of life" until they are robbed, injured or set alight, and they won't take the right option until their emergency services are at breaking point."

They voted for the NHS.

I think it is an incredably blinkered view that britain can survive without the eu. The problem with the country of "great britain and northern ireland" is that most of the world politics (forign policy, defence ect) is controlled by the largly english westminster parliment when actually the peoples of the other provences (scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales, Isle of man ect.) disagree (Euro, Iraq war ect). The newley devoluted parliments of the provences have no say in defense or forign policy so all the world and the EU sees is the view of the English people who for some reason still think that the armada is just off the coast, that Hitler is about to restart the blitz and the napoleon is about to invade.

"Ask people to vote for tax rises to fund higher-quality public services or tax cuts to "improve their quality of life" until they are robbed, injured or set alight, and they won't take the right option until their emergency services are at breaking point."

They voted for the NHS.

I'm not wholly sure what your point is. Do you mean they voted for the party which said it would do the best thing for the NHS in the recent election, or that you mean back in the... 50s?... they voted to create an NHS?

I think it is an incredably blinkered view that britain can survive without the eu. The problem with the country of "great britain and northern ireland" is that most of the world politics (forign policy, defence ect) is controlled by the largly english westminster parliment when actually the peoples of the other provences (scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales, Isle of man ect.) disagree (Euro, Iraq war ect). The newley devoluted parliments of the provences have no say in defense or forign policy so all the world and the EU sees is the view of the English people who for some reason still think that the armada is just off the coast, that Hitler is about to restart the blitz and the napoleon is about to invade.

the isle of man is pretty much england...lets not deny that fact..not to mention the welsh have pretty much been under english rule for several hundred years...anyway back to my point Britain..the euro? or do we prefer our pound stirling ?

The newley devoluted parliments of the provences have no say in defense or forign policy

No, but their democratically-elected MPs do sit in the British Parliament at Westminster.

so all the world and the EU sees is the view of the English people who for some reason still think that the armada is just off the coast, that Hitler is about to restart the blitz and the napoleon is about to invade.

Your vitriol is silly. From where do you come, since you're obviously not British?

Meanwhile, OT: I'd prefer we stayed out of the Euro for the time being, since, well... since the pound's doing so well, to be frank :)

IF its possible we would like to keep the posts to just European persons if possible



Yes sir we dumb non euro will obey sir.... no yanks will be pollutin this great thread sir. If we want to voice an opinion we will wait till it is given to us sir. that is all.

"I think it is an incredably blinkered view that britain can survive without the eu. The problem with the country of "great britain and northern ireland" is that most of the world politics (forign policy, defence ect) is controlled by the largly english westminster parliment when actually the peoples of the other provences (scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales, Isle of man ect.) disagree (Euro, Iraq war ect). The newley devoluted parliments of the provences have no say in defense or forign policy so all the world and the EU sees is the view of the English people who for some reason still think that the armada is just off the coast, that Hitler is about to restart the blitz and the napoleon is about to invade."

I agree, most of Britains trade is with Europe. We'd be mugs to turn our backs on them. However, like the French (who voted 'non' if you recall,) we'd like to have laws made for us by people we get to vote for, instead of unaccountable appointees in Brussels.

IF its possible we would like to keep the posts to just European persons if possible



Yes sir we dumb non euro will obey sir.... no yanks will be pollutin this great thread sir. If we want to voice an opinion we will wait till it is given to us sir. that is all.

this is exactly my point in the anglo american thread...there unneceraly obnoxious!...i didnt say non-european people were dumb i just wanted to set up a European debating team, of course the American veiw is welcome but considering it will most likely be anti british, anti european flaiming i see little point!

IF its possible we would like to keep the posts to just European persons if possible



Yes sir we dumb non euro will obey sir.... no yanks will be pollutin this great thread sir. If we want to voice an opinion we will wait till it is given to us sir. that is all.

Told you this would happen, Edmund.

For the record, Kaelestios, you oppressed mass, the concept of European-only threads was created for the purpose of discussing matters that are only pertinent to Europeans. Whether the pound is eradicated has great significance locally, but outside Europe its only real significance is to the money markets. If you'd care to join the discussion, however, please offer an opinion, with reasons?

"

, instead of unaccountable appointees in Brussels.

how do they do it exactly?...pull names out of a hat?

"I'm not wholly sure what your point is. Do you mean they voted for the party which said it would do the best thing for the NHS in the recent election, or that you mean back in the... 50s?... they voted to create an NHS? "

I'm saying most people aren't kids. They will act according to enlightened self interest, rather than to achieve immediate gratification. Hence, they will pay for services which they don't need immediately, and may never need at all (such as auto insurance, pensions, etc)
They don't need politicians to do this for them.

I think, also, this is a bit off topic.

Told you this would happen, Edmund.


And you were wise to warn me freind.

No, but their democratically-elected MPs do sit in the British Parliament at Westminster.

No they don't. only mp elected in the general election sit at westminister, members of the scottish parliment are elected at the scotish parlimentry elections the same goes for northern ireland.



Your vitriol is silly. From where do you come, since you're obviously not British?

No your right im not british, im northern irish and ivr had to put up with the british army camping out in my country for 25 years with out so much as a by your leave

I think, also, this is a bit off topic.

i dont think there is a clear topic..its just a trial run of the system

"how do they do it exactly?...pull names out of a hat?"

They're appointed by the governments of the EU states. You could say that as they are appointed by our elected representatives, then they have a mandate 'of sorts' but as Tony Benn said:

The first question to ask anyone in a position of power is : "How do I get rid of you" - and we can't.

"I'm not wholly sure what your point is. Do you mean they voted for the party which said it would do the best thing for the NHS in the recent election, or that you mean back in the... 50s?... they voted to create an NHS? "

I'm saying most people aren't kids. They will act according to enlightened self interest, rather than to achieve immediate gratification. Hence, they will pay for services which they don't need immediately, and may never need at all (such as auto insurance, pensions, etc)
They don't need politicians to do this for them.

I think, also, this is a bit off topic.

...yes, of course they will, but you're lumping public and private services in together incorrectly. The difference is people can choose what car insurance company to use, and when they choose a job they (if wise) will check out the pension provision, and so forth, but they have no choice how they are taxed (short of changing their lifestyles to reduce their taxes, which is rare on a major scale, the provision of multi-million-earning businessmen) and so feel much greater resentment towards it.

No they don't. only mp elected in the general election sit at westminister, members of the scottish parliment are elected at the scotish parlimentry elections the same goes for northern ireland.





No your right im not british, im northern irish and ivr had to put up with the british army camping out in my country for 25 years with out so much as a by your leave

well if its any consolation we are taking down the watch towers so the so called "disbanded" IRA can bomb unsuspecting british troops a lot easier

"how do they do it exactly?...pull names out of a hat?"

They're appointed by the governments of the EU states. You could say that as they are appointed by our elected representatives, then they have a mandate 'of sorts' but as Tony Benn said:

The first question to ask anyone in a position of power is : "How do I get rid of you" - and we can't.

i see....

No they don't. only mp elected in the general election sit at westminister, members of the scottish parliment are elected at the scotish parlimentry elections the same goes for northern ireland.

Sorry, I thought since you voted for them they were, well, representing your wishes. Isn't the point of limited devolution that it's designed to serve local needs?

No your right im not british, im northern irish and ivr had to put up with the british army camping out in my country for 25 years with out so much as a by your leave

*cough* What, you mean the ones trying to stop and responding to the bombs exploding in "your country" and in mine? Okay, feel free to hate an entire country on the basis of an anti-terrorist force, but don't expect many outside the camp of the Rev. Dr. Ian Paisley to take you seriously.

"but they have no choice how they are taxed (short of changing their lifestyles to reduce their taxes, which is rare on a major scale, the provision of multi-million-earning businessmen) and so feel much greater resentment towards it."

Right now, you are sadly correct. In theory, we should be able to vote for governmental candidates with different policies, but they all appear the same wishy washy pinky blue.

For myself, I resent the rate of tax we pay as we receive such rotten value for it. If the government were a private company, it would be broke.

I learn so much about polotics on nationstates....maybe i should have chosen polotics instead of sociology

Tony Benn talks a lot of sense for an obvious lunatic

Tony Benn talks a lot of sense for an obvious lunatic

tony benn..yes i have heard of him...

Right now, you are sadly correct. In theory, we should be able to vote for governmental candidates with different policies, but they all appear the same wishy washy pinky blue.

Well, there's always the yellow option ;)

For myself, I resent the rate of tax we pay as we receive such rotten value for it. If the government were a private company, it would be broke.

Hey, we're going through a period of acceptable, if controversial, governance, but then these are interesting times we live in (it could be worse; we could have joined the Euro!).

Brown's economic policies could potentially lead to trouble in a decade or two, but nobody even mentioned the future in the 2005 election. The trouble with a democratic government elected every few years is that long-term planning is difficult as long as there is reasonable opposition; anything which results in short-term problems but is to the nation's long-term benefit cannot be done, as the people, dissatisfied with the current ruling party, will vote in the opposition at the next election, who will immediately reverse said policy. It's one of the very, very, very few places where an authoritarian government has advantages over a democratic one.

Barking mad Champaign socialist born with a silver spoon in his mouth and never done a days work in his life, motivated no doubt by middle class guilt about 'the workers' - but has interesting things to say about democracy. Perfect opposition material as he is good at embarrassing whoever is in power as political expediency means nothing to him. God forfend he should ever be elected to anything.

Barking mad Champaign socialist born with a silver spoon in his mouth and never done a days work in his life, motivated no doubt by middle class guilt about 'the workers' - but has interesting things to say about democracy. Perfect opposition material as he is good at embarrassing whoever is in power as political expediency means nothing to him. God forfend he should ever be elected to anything.

"Perfect opposition material" - Boris! Boriiiiiiis!

What, you mean the ones trying to stop and responding to the bombs exploding in "your country" and in mine? Okay, feel free to hate an entire country on the basis of an anti-terrorist force, but don't expect many outside the camp of the Rev. Dr. Ian Paisley to take you seriously.

last soldier killed was Bombardier Restorick Royal Artillery 12th February 1997, thats eight years ago. Rev. Dr. Ian Paisley is a loyalist and as such supports the use of the british army in ireland and would not actually be happy about someone wanting them out. I agrree that the army was originally in place as an anti terrorist force but since the only active terrorists left are the one fighting to remain part of the UK dont you think its time they left?

be serious you really wouldn't be happy if the french army suddenly invaded london and sat there would you?

besides this is way of topic by now

I thiks we should as a people should be allowed to vote to decide if we sould accecpt the Euro and any European Constitution this is a democracy after all :)

"Well, there's always the yellow option "

It's not an option. The Chinese are going to eat us for lunch. Or did you mean that ginger bloke with no policies?

""Perfect opposition material" - Boris! Boriiiiiiis!"

Hislop.

"Perfect opposition material" - Boris! Boriiiiiiis!

Boris johnson?...he is a class act....i mean...h's brilliant for opposition...he doesnt know wether its tuesday or breakfast

be serious you really wouldn't be happy if the french army suddenly invaded london and sat there would you?

:)

"serious" and the french army dont get used in the same sentance a lot..but i see your point

"I thiks we should as a people should be allowed to vote to decide if we sould accecpt the Euro and any European Constitution this is a democracy after all "

Yeah, but we'd vote 'wrong' like the French and Dutch and Norwegians did. Politicians are only interested in democracy when we vote 'yes'

Hence, they're using the political equivalent of the 'not listening la la la' technique and pretending silly us don't know what we want anyway.

Bastards.

last soldier killed was Bombardier Restorick Royal Artillery 12th February 1997, thats eight years ago. Rev. Dr. Ian Paisley is a loyalist and as such supports the use of the british army in ireland and would not actually be happy about someone wanting them out. I agrree that the army was originally in place as an anti terrorist force but since the only active terrorists left are the one fighting to remain part of the UK dont you think its time they left?

...I didn't sleep last night. Apologies for both stupidity in naming Paisley and in a slight tint of irritation in my post. I shall drop it, in light of the Off-Topicness.

besides this is way of topic by now

I thiks we should as a people should be allowed to vote to decide if we sould accecpt the Euro and any European Constitution this is a democracy after all :)

Yes, it is >.> Of course we should be allowed to vote, once per government, if the current government wants it. I believe this because:

1. People vote for a government on the basis of a range of issues, one of which is its stance on Europe.

2. Therefore, if a pro-Euro government gets in it can pretty legitimately claim that the EU has support in the country. This is technically a logical fallacy, but it's a just about reeeeeeeeeasonable leap of public faith for a politician. Certainly more believable than "I did not have sexual relations with that woman."

3. Therefore, that government can claim that that same public support justifies its belief that perhaps its citizens might want to integrate further into the EU. However, with this being such a momentous decision to make, it would be wise to subject it to a referendum.

"Well, there's always the yellow option "

It's not an option. The Chinese are going to eat us for lunch. Or did you mean that ginger bloke with no policies?

I meant the ginger bloke currently providing the more realistic/reasonable of two opposition points of view at the moment, both of which are necessary, because no democracy can function without opposition.

Entirely off topic, has anyone read 'The Worlds most Dangerous Places' by Robert Young Pelton?

If more Americans were like him, I'd despise them less!

Entirely off topic, has anyone read 'The Worlds most Dangerous Places' by Robert Young Pelton?

If more Americans were like him, I'd despise them less!

nope never read it..whats it about?... :p

No they don't. only mp elected in the general election sit at westminister, members of the scottish parliment are elected at the scotish parlimentry elections the same goes for northern ireland.

Yes, but the general election is also held in Northern Ireland and Scotland - thus we have MPs in Westminster from the DUP, UUP, SNP and SF for example.*



* Well, whether Sinn Fein members are technically MPs in Westminster is somewhat debateable, in that they will use the offices there, but not actually take their seats in the house, but anyhow...

The thread seems to have fractured a little from whether Britain (which DOES include Northern Ireland, legally, regardless of the differing viewpoints of whether it should or not) should be part of the EU.

As a euro-sceptic, I still feel the EU gets a bad press in Britain. There are doubtless beneficial aspects of being a part of it. The problem is that there is perceived to be a push amongst the EU political elite to transform it into a superstate. Having unelected people like Giscard d'Estaing drafting things like the European Constitution doesn't help.

If the governments of Europe seriously want to see their peoples agreeing on closer integration, then they should accept that we are intelligent people and do it at our pace, rather than bullying us into it. The comment about France and the Netherlands voted 'wrongly' is exactly what I mean. The rules about the Constitution say it MUST be ratified by each country - not each country MUST PERSUADE its people to ratify it. "Just ratify the damned thing. Who cares if it's what your people want or not?" :rolleyes:

That's why I remain a euro-sceptic. That and the fact that I categorically do not want to be part of the experiment in financial stupidity which is the Euro.

the experiment in financial stupidity which is the Euro.

its very restrictive as well...f britain adopted it and european war broke out...we would have lost the versitility of the pound ..it would cripple the economy

The thread seems to have fractured a little from whether Britain (which DOES include Northern Ireland, legally, regardless of the differing viewpoints of whether it should or not) should be part of the EU.

Well, technically it is the UK not Britain which includes Northern Ireland.

You've got the choice:
Sit back, be patriotic and be eaten alive by the others, or join and be part of something bigger that can actually be competitive.

Your nation is tiny, you can be as rich as you want, others are taken your place. Together we can keep our heads above water, but alone we're bound to drown.