NationStates Jolt Archive

what fucking difference does it matter where you come from?
what difference does it make what 'nationality' or 'race' you are?

what matters is how you live your life and how you treat others.



is this a stupid opinion to have cos i rarely see it displayed round here or anywhere :headbang:
someone please explain to me why these things actually matter


and yes this is in responce to this thread http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=435983

Its about Pride.

what fucking difference does it matter where you come from?
what difference does it make what 'nationality' or 'race' you are?

what matters is how you live your life and how you treat others.



is this a stupid opinion to have cos i rarely see it displayed round here or anywhere :headbang:
someone please explain to me why these things actually matter


and yes this is in responce to this thread http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=435983

you're right mate
Blind allegience to nationality, race and religion has caused a huge part of human conflict and suffering. It is the ultimate stupidity of the right wing, propagated by rulers and their media lieutenants to keep people subservient by perpetually pitting them in conflict with each other, a thought system so deeply entrenched that millions are brainwashed into dying for causes and concepts that don't benefit themselves.
We live on a world that can be traversed in 24 hours, or less than 2 from orbit, and yet we divide it into hundreds of fragments for which you need a piece of paper to cross between each. For what reason? Call me hopelessly idealistic, but it seems counterintuitive. Chimpanzees and leopards are violently territorial; we may be descended from animals but our intelligence has given us the option to escape from the harshest excesses of nature, and yet we use this intelligence to strike harder at each other. Technology has outpaced social progress by vast degrees, and this creates a very dangerous chapter in human history. Maybe if we can begin to throw off the ethnocentrist/religious nationalism that infects human society, we might just survive this century.

I agree with what you're saying, PM, but I thinking having been born and brought up in a certain country predisposes you somewhat to certain norms and cultures of that country (which inevitably differ sometimes with those of other countries). Ultimately, I agree that how you live your life is the most important factor in defining oneself, but I think it's possible - probable, even, in many cases - that your background will influence how you live life.

To clarify, though, having such a background does not mean that anyone has any right to think their country/race/whatever is superior to another. People may be different in terms of beliefs and cultures - which may, in part, stem from their country - but that does not mean anyone is superior to anyone else for these reasons.

I agree with what you're saying, PM, but I thinking having been born and brought up in a certain country predisposes you somewhat to certain norms and cultures of that country (which inevitably differ sometimes with those of other countries). Ultimately, I agree that how you live your life is the most important factor in defining oneself, but I think it's possible - probable, even, in many cases - that your background will influence how you live life.

To clarify, though, having such a background does not mean that anyone has any right to think their country/race/whatever is superior to another. People may be different in terms of beliefs and cultures - which may, in part, stem from their country - but that does not mean anyone is superior to anyone else for these reasons.
well, yes, cultures and the way we are brought up are different to an extent throughout the world. but only to an extent. underneath the artificial constructs like nationality, or certain aspects of culture (its a pretty vague term), we are all, unmistakably, the same. hence i don't understand why some people are so ferverent in their defence of this artificial thing called 'national boundaries', and why they are so keen to exclaim their apparent differences from everyone else. it just doesn't make sense to me.
as Kryysakan said, this kind of pointless fragmentation just leads to the sorts of troubles indicitive in the world today - violence, inequality, war, discrimination and irrational hatred.
if only everyone stopped to think about it in this way maybe they'd realise how ridiculous fighting over these artificial and percieved differences is. of course, there's always the man who desires power, and who uses and furthers these constructs, convincing others that the small and insignificant differences between the people of the world are actually important. take Hitler for example - he even managed to convince enough people that the Jews (and others affected by the holocaust) were different and seperate enough to be dangerous, and that another "race" was in some way superior. it is exactly this tactic of turning people against people that those who seek power are good at, all throughout history. unfortunatley its gone on so long that the effects have become entrenched in our psyche, as you say.
this is, by the way, yet another reason why i believe the pursuit of power to be fucking evil.


anyway, sorry, once again i'm just bouncing ideas off the wall as they come to me... i'm in a thinky mood today :P



you're right mate
Blind allegience to nationality, race and religion has caused a huge part of human conflict and suffering. It is the ultimate stupidity of the right wing, propagated by rulers and their media lieutenants to keep people subservient by perpetually pitting them in conflict with each other, a thought system so deeply entrenched that millions are brainwashed into dying for causes and concepts that don't benefit themselves.
We live on a world that can be traversed in 24 hours, or less than 2 from orbit, and yet we divide it into hundreds of fragments for which you need a piece of paper to cross between each. For what reason? Call me hopelessly idealistic, but it seems counterintuitive. Chimpanzees and leopards are violently territorial; we may be descended from animals but our intelligence has given us the option to escape from the harshest excesses of nature, and yet we use this intelligence to strike harder at each other. Technology has outpaced social progress by vast degrees, and this creates a very dangerous chapter in human history. Maybe if we can begin to throw off the ethnocentrist/religious nationalism that infects human society, we might just survive this century.
exactly! it makes no sense if you stop for a second and actually think about it, and can see past what is automatically assumed to be the truth. one is brought up believing in the nationstate(s...heh), and all it takes is to see past this to see how ridiculous it is.

the question is what to do about it? world government? anarchy? communitarianism?
i've opted for the latter, of course :cool:

what fucking difference does it matter where you come from?
what difference does it make what 'nationality' or 'race' you are?

It matters to many who are unsure of how to define themselves, who desperately seek a set of rules to behave by, being unsure of how to live their lives. Tribalism is a natural outlet of this - the evidence for which lies in analogous situations all over the animal kingdom - so it may be possible that people default, to a certain extent, to what they feel (or have been taught) defines "my kind of people". Nowadays this is done in two major ways: by land borders and the associated memes of "tradition", "heritage" and "culture" and also, more dangerously, by visual differences such as skin colour.

The difference it makes is not to be disregarded; such a thing is dangerous indeed to discard. It is, of course, true that Britons, Americans, Syrians, Norwegians, Chinese, Bangladeshis, all the people of the world are due equality of rights and of consideration, but to expect them all to behave in identical manners is foolish idealism. In this regard it makes a great difference where someone comes from.

what matters is how you live your life and how you treat others.

Exactly, but the above point must also be taken into consideration. Consider this: Child A is ignored by his mother, who works a high-paying job for a multinational, and has no father due to divorce. Do you expect the man this child once was to grow up into a similar person to Child B, whose father doted on him but whose mother was irritated by him and always took his sister's side, or Child C whose parents were always loving, caring and supportive of his and his siblings' enterprises?

If we can expect such microcosmic affects of upbringing on people's lives, why not the macrocosmic? Why not the national-scale, even the world-scale? What is wrong is to deny anyone rights or consideration based on their nationality; what is not wrong is to learn that their culture is different and, where appropriate, learn about it in an attempt to communicate meaning better to them. This may require treating them differently, but certainly not separately, and definitely not worse or better.

Having female doctors on staff to deal with Muslim women is a good example of this; an explicit statement exists that this sector of the populace will be treated differently from others, but no segregation exists and treatment is on average no worse as a result (individual doctors' competences aside).

It matters to many who are unsure of how to define themselves, who desperately seek a set of rules to behave by, being unsure of how to live their lives. Tribalism is a natural outlet of this - the evidence for which lies in analogous situations all over the animal kingdom - so it may be possible that people default, to a certain extent, to what they feel (or have been taught) defines "my kind of people". Nowadays this is done in two major ways: by land borders and the associated memes of "tradition", "heritage" and "culture" and also, more dangerously, by visual differences such as skin colour.


hmmm... humans evolved larger brains to escape the animalistic tendancies of our baser instincts. if these instincts tell us to clump together in tribes, groups or nationalities, then surely it is possible to use our intellect to overcome this if it presents a problem - which i evidently think it does. we are able to control violent and agressive instincts, and animalistic sexual urges, for example, through our intellect - why not this instinctual tribal nature?



The difference it makes is not to be disregarded; such a thing is dangerous indeed to discard. It is, of course, true that Britons, Americans, Syrians, Norwegians, Chinese, Bangladeshis, all the people of the world are due equality of rights and of consideration, but to expect them all to behave in identical manners is foolish idealism. In this regard it makes a great difference where someone comes from.

all the people of the world have the same basic wants and needs. for some, in the West for example, most of these are satisfied and other layers of wants and needs are added. however, dispite being affected by situation in this way we are all still the same. in terms of biology and physicality, especially so.
of course people do not behave in exactly the same way. the only differences that matter are what i would regard as the top layer of a culture - for example the ways in which people interact, and subsequent rules according to their culture. these sorts of differences should of course be respected, but is only a purely cosmetic cultural difference


Exactly, but the above point must also be taken into consideration. Consider this: Child A is ignored by his mother, who works a high-paying job for a multinational, and has no father due to divorce. Do you expect the man this child once was to grow up into a similar person to Child B, whose father doted on him but whose mother was irritated by him and always took his sister's side, or Child C whose parents were always loving, caring and supportive of his and his siblings' enterprises?
and this sort of thing happens in every culture or nationality in the world. the fact that the mother of child A works for an multinational is not important - what is is the way in which she treats her child, which can be seen throughout the world.

If we can expect such microcosmic affects of upbringing on people's lives, why not the macrocosmic? Why not the national-scale, even the world-scale? What is wrong is to deny anyone rights or consideration based on their nationality; what is not wrong is to learn that their culture is different and, where appropriate, learn about it in an attempt to communicate meaning better to them. This may require treating them differently, but certainly not separately, and definitely not worse or better.

this is what i meant about the cosmetic or on-the-surface cultural differences (the only ones that matter).
Having female doctors on staff to deal with Muslim women is a good example of this; an explicit statement exists that this sector of the populace will be treated differently from others, but no segregation exists and treatment is on average no worse as a result (individual doctors' competences aside).indeed.

so i am agreeing, therefore, that it does matter where somebody comes from in the sense that the way one relates and communicates with them, their particular culture in this matter, has to be respected. but that is all.

i rarely concede a point in an arguement on here - this has to be the first time in a number of months... well done ;)

See thats why I was a fan of Communism.

I never think it could work but there's that whole idea of being loyal to an ideal, that all communist throughout the world were fighting for the same dream.

If people want to be tribal they can at least be loyal to an idea rather then a peice of land.