NationStates Jolt Archive

In response to the capitalist/communist threads...

Why don't we try a moderate form of socialism with a progressive income tax universal health care, and free vocational or college education for all?

Thats what we have in Britain

Because that's not really change so much as limp-wristed submission to the status quo. In some cases -yours, perhaps- it may be well intentioned, but in truth it's just the only long-term way to keep power running thickest through the hands of an elite.

We've got that in many nations, but people are still under heel, thankful for table scraps called rights. It's just a victorious right-wing with a red hat on.

In response to the capitalist/communist threads...

Why don't we try a moderate form of socialism with a progressive income tax universal health care, and free vocational or college education for all?
Because the greedy capitalist pigs have a lock on political power!!!

Thats what we have in Britain

Pardon my Americanocentrism, but to some folk, my earlier post is a novel idea... :)

Because that's not really change so much as limp-wristed submission to the status quo. In some cases -yours, perhaps- it may be well intentioned, but in truth it's just the only long-term way to keep power running thickest through the hands of an elite.

We've got that in many nations, but people are still under heel, thankful for table scraps called rights. It's just a victorious right-wing with a red hat on.

From where I'm sitting, it is unelectably left wing...

Pardon my Americanocentrism, but to some folk, my earlier post is a novel idea... :)
Yeah well, it doesn't work brilliantly over here. Plus, I suspect your version of 'college' is a whole lot different to ours - our college years are 16-18. University comes after that, and we have to pay some of our fees for that.

Yeah well, it doesn't work brilliantly over here. Plus, I suspect your version of 'college' is a whole lot different to ours - our college years are 16-18. University comes after that, and we have to pay some of our fees for that.

Europe will probably be much better off in the long term... governments seem better at long term thinking than corporations... if only from breadth of interest.

In response to the capitalist/communist threads...

Why don't we try a moderate form of socialism with a progressive income tax universal health care, and free vocational or college education for all?


Well, the world obviously wouldn't end under that system, because that describes most of Europe (and the world hasn't ended, in case you hadn't noticed.) Of course, most European countries suffer from double-digit unemployment, paralyzing bureaucracy, and delapitated educational systems. Basically, if you think that system is better, I strongly encourage you to move to Europe. I'll stay right here in the U.S., we'll do our things our way, and everybody's happy.

And I definitely don't support free higher education. We already have free secondary education, and it sucks. Higher education isn't for everyone because the reality is that not everyone is smart enough to make higher education a worthwhile investment for them. What if they constantly fail the classes? Are you going to tell them that they can't try again? If not, why should society pay for that crap? If so, why don't (or maybe you do) you think we should kick people who get lousy grades during secondary education?

I'm also curious, since you're advocating a socialist government: if someone is starving or doesn't have food, should they be entitled to government handouts? If they don't have a roof over their heads and are living on the streets, should they have a bed to sleep in? How about clothing? If you give someone free healthcare, food, clothing and shelter--and you're obviously going to be taxing the people who ARE making money more heavily to pay for all of this--what incentive do these people have to work? Heck... if all of my food, clothing, and health needs were taken care of, I'd just retire and read books all day.

What??? No free food??? You'll send people to college, but you'll make them starve to death while doing it???? It's a good thing they have free medical care to pay for their hospital bed when they fall unconscious due to malnutrition! No free clothing???? I hope they go to a free nudist college! No free shelter??? Maybe they can sleep in the library and change in the bathroom!

You don't have to answer any of these questions. They're obviously rhetorical.

Yeah well, it doesn't work brilliantly over here. Plus, I suspect your version of 'college' is a whole lot different to ours - our college years are 16-18. University comes after that, and we have to pay some of our fees for that.
some, yes. we pay £1,025 an academic year, and the govt still pays about £6,000 of the fees, just to be clear :)

In response to the capitalist/communist threads...

Why don't we try a moderate form of socialism with a progressive income tax universal health care, and free vocational or college education for all?

I'll say it again. social programs have as much to do with socialism as capitalization has to do with capitalism.

some, yes. we pay £1,025 an academic year, and the govt still pays about £6,000 of the fees, just to be clear :)
Yeah, I'm just glad I miss out on possible top-up fees by onw whole year! 1-0 in the Me vs. Younger folk stakes.

I'll say it again. social programs have as much to do with socialism as capitalization has to do with capitalism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy#Views_of_Social_Democrats_today

Government-owned or subsidised programs of education, health care, child care, etc. for all citizens.
Moderate to high levels of taxation to fund government expenditure and a progressive taxation system.

I think by moderate socialism he meant social democrats

Reponce to orginal post
a progressive income tax universal health care, and free vocational or college education for all?
Ireland has that to a limit.
There's only 2 tax bands 21% and 42% (I'm going from memory here so I could very likely be wrong)
Health care is free but not the greatist the leader of the PD's who are in a coalision says that if she remains minister for health we'll have a world class health system (did someone say fishing for votes?)
And finally we have free all levels of schooling, have to pay for books and things like that is all. Also if you fail a year in unversity you have to pay to re-do it.

In response to the capitalist/communist threads...

Why don't we try a moderate form of socialism with a progressive income tax universal health care, and free vocational or college education for all?

Because I don't want a 60% to 80% tax rate. Nice idea if you could keep the total tax rate below 40%.

Why don't we try a moderate form of socialism with a progressive income tax universal health care, and free vocational or college education for all?
That's pretty much exactly what I'm working for.

Because I don't want a 60% to 80% tax rate. Nice idea if you could keep the total tax rate below 40%.
You could easily do that, just throw the military out on it's ass (costs over 55% of our budget to pay for the military). Go to a far less expensive militia type military that Switzerland has.

Yeah, I'm just glad I miss out on possible top-up fees by onw whole year! 1-0 in the Me vs. Younger folk stakes.
huh? they got rid of top up fees?? how did i manage to miss this?! :confused:

ah well, i be quitting uni this year, so at least i won't have to pay em when i go back :)

You could easily do that, just throw the military out on it's ass (costs over 55% of our budget to pay for the military). Go to a far less expensive militia type military that Switzerland has.

No thanks. I spent 26 years in the USAF. It was a good job.

You could easily do that, just throw the military out on it's ass (costs over 55% of our budget to pay for the military). Go to a far less expensive militia type military that Switzerland has.

I don't know a thing about switzerland's military. can you give more information on it's structure and it's costs?

You could easily do that, just throw the military out on it's ass (costs over 55% of our budget to pay for the military). Go to a far less expensive militia type military that Switzerland has.

That would be great, except Switzerland isn't even close to the size of Texas, didn't have two skyscrapers blown up by terrorists, and isn't in a war right now. That's why they don't need a military....there alwayse neutral.

Why not switch to the European model? Because Europe's economic growth rate is half that of the United States' right now, and is behind us in every major economic statistic. Socialist healthcare fails. I have talked to people from Germany who have that system, and they have no idea what a dentist is. Socialist healthcare is annother name for inadequacy for all.

I have talked to people from Germany who have that system, and they have no idea what a dentist is.
Excuse me?
If you have to lie, use another country, okay.

Well, I think that the problem with America is culture. Too many stupid people are so stupid because of the fact that they were not brought up to be smart(which of course is partially cultural). I do not think that the problem with America is the genetically based IQ so much as the fact that too many Americans do not raise their children properly with enough educational material and enough motivation to help improve themselves. I think that our system works fine for people who strive to succeed and hurts all of the people who screw themselves over.

Excuse me?
If you have to lie, use another country, okay.

What are you talking about, that was true.

What are you talking about, that was true.
Sorry mate, but all Germans know what a dentist is. Even if they had never been, they'd still know what a dentist is.

the European model?
"the" as in singular. one european model, you may not have noticed this but Europe is made up of countries these countries have different economies and social programms and governments and laws. The swedish economic model isn't the same as the UK model.

(sorry if I sound offenisve but people ignore the fact that europe is not one country often and it's slightly annoying)

Sorry mate, but all Germans know what a dentist is. Even if they had never been, they'd still know what a dentist is.

I'm sure that at least one of the 80 million Germans who have never heard of dentists. However, that is insignificant. My point was that the Germans that I talked to didn't really understand what dentists were for or what they did in any detail. They had never been and didn't understand what the point of going would be.

I'm sure that at least one of the 80 million Germans who have never heard of dentists. However, that is insignificant. My point was that the Germans that I talked to didn't really understand what dentists were for or what they did in any detail. They had never been and didn't understand what the point of going would be.
Are you sure it's not just because they didn't know the english word or something.

Have you ever been to a zahnarzt?

I'm sure that at least one of the 80 million Germans who have never heard of dentists. However, that is insignificant. My point was that the Germans that I talked to didn't really understand what dentists were for or what they did in any detail. They had never been and didn't understand what the point of going would be.
That still sounds fairly impossible. How old where those Germans?

http://www.whocollab.od.mah.se/euro/germany/germany.html

In response to the capitalist/communist threads...

Why don't we try a moderate form of socialism with a progressive income tax universal health care, and free vocational or college education for all?

Here's what I think:

If enough people voted for it, I would support universal basic healthcare. This basically means one checkup a year normally, pap smears for women and physicals for men. It would cover immunizations (those necessary, not elective ones) and any medically necessary procedures and prescribed medications. It would cover emergency care. It would not cover elective procedures.

Much like I think welfare should only provide a basic sustenance, to encourage people to do what they can to pay their own way (most of them want to anyways, so it isn't all that hard to encourage), government-sponsored healthcare should only cover the bare minimum in healthcare.

As for vocational/college education, that gets a little more sticky. I suppose, as long as college education entrance requirements were not changed in the least, and enough failures would get you dropped from goverment sponsorship - leading to you having to pay your own way, that would be fine. It should only fully cover public schools, with a comparable amount given for those going to private schools - but not complete tuition. Those who could not meet college entrance requirements would automatically go into some sort of vocational school.

College education is not for everyone, and trying to make it a universal thing will simply turn it into another secondary school.

That still sounds fairly impossible. How old where those Germans?

http://www.whocollab.od.mah.se/euro/germany/germany.html

An interesting read. Based upon this information, I will admit that the exposure of those Germans with whom I have contact is atypical.

The Germans were older teens living in a rural setting.

An interesting read. Based upon this information, I will admit that the exposure of those Germans with whom I have contact is atypical.
Thank you.
:)