NationStates Jolt Archive

Are all the communists in this game at the bottom of the social ladder, and just find it impossible to climb it. Or can't bring themselves to climb it. All communism realy is when you get down to it is taking away from the wealthy who HAVE puthard work into building their companies, and giving it all to the poor. So it is nothing but stealing. That is why nobody can increase their standard of living. So you work all your life and in the end get no rewards. Plus it takes away all your rights for what? I'll tell you what so the wealthy and middle classes who work hard for their money are forced to give it all up and live life as a poor person regardless of all their hard work. That is why I think it appeals to the poor because it forces their bosses to live like them.
So for all the communists out there I ask you what the hell kind of government is this?

As for me I say LONG LIVE CAPITALISM.

its evidently a more equal government - the cornerstone of communist thinking. if you have a problem with this you obviously value something else over equality or fairness in this respect


gosh, i never get tired of threads bashing communism. oh wait, what am i saying? :headbang: :rolleyes:

The only problem I have with equality and fairness is when my business and hard earned money is taken from me and given to the damn government and people I don't know.

The only problem I have with equality and fairness is when my business and hard earned money is taken from me and given to the damn government and people I don't know.
but not taking that money leads to a less equal society, and potentially those who need the money more than you do not getting any (and having to face the subsequent problems that brings)

so you are against even paying taxes?

The only problem I have with equality and fairness is when my business and hard earned money is taken from me and given to the damn government and people I don't know.

No, it's not. In actual communism, there is no central government. Do some reading. Even if you disagree with the theory, it can't hurt to understand it.

Are all the communists in this game at the bottom of the social ladder, and just find it impossible to climb it. Or can't bring themselves to climb it. All communism realy is when you get down to it is taking away from the wealthy who HAVE puthard work into building their companies, and giving it all to the poor. So it is nothing but stealing.
Actually, it could be claimed that inequality of wealth/property is theft. All private property comes down to a man a long time ago with a big stick. He says "this land is MINE" and proceeds to beat anyone who tries to use "his" land.

Originally all the world's land was spread out equally among the population.

What you consider to be theft is really the reversal of many years of theft.

Actually, it could be claimed that inequality of wealth/property is theft. All private property comes down to a man a long time ago with a big stick. He says "this land is MINE" and proceeds to beat anyone who tries to use "his" land.

Originally all the world's land was spread out equally among the population.

What you consider to be theft is really the reversal of many years of theft.
time to trot out my favourite quote again:

“The first man who, having enclosed a piece of ground, bethought himself of saying this is mine, and found people simple enough to believe him, was the real founder of civil society. From how many crimes, wars, and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not any one have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows: beware of listening to this impostor; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody”
- Jean-Jacques Rousseau

No I'm not against paying taxes because the government needs that money to run, and even if in theory communism has no central government you have to look at real life communism. There is a very strong and oppressive central government. Also look at the world communism is a failure and capitalism works cause it offers freedom and progress.

Also capitalism allows poeple to rise in social standing and progress in life. Also there is no reason for a farmer to be making as much money as a doctor.

No I'm not against paying taxes because the government needs that money to run, and even if in theory communism has no central government you have to look at real life communism. There is a very strong and oppressive central government. Also look at the world communism is a failure and capitalism works cause it offers freedom and progress.

No, those "communist" states of the 20th century were state-capitalist in their operation. They acted as a giant bureaucratic corporation and had their own elites.

Democratic communist societies have actually existed before (as in parts of Spain in the 30's), but they were destroyed by reactionaries, aided by "freedom" and "progress" loving capitalists.

Also capitalism allows poeple to rise in social standing and progress in life. Also there is no reason for a farmer to be making as much money as a doctor.

Yes, and I'm sure Britney Spears is more important to our survival than a doctor. :rolleyes:

Also capitalism allows poeple to rise in social standing and progress in life. Also there is no reason for a farmer to be making as much money as a doctor.

In communism, there are no social classes, and no money. The doctor practices his profession because he is required, and does so because it is what he feels is his place in society. The farmer is a farmer because he is needed, and again, it is where he fits. The efforts of both benefit everyone in the community, and are shared by all. And who is to say that both don't work equally hard?

Are all the communists in this game at the bottom of the social ladder, and just find it impossible to climb it. Or can't bring themselves to climb it. All communism realy is when you get down to it is taking away from the wealthy who HAVE puthard work into building their companies, and giving it all to the poor. So it is nothing but stealing. That is why nobody can increase their standard of living. So you work all your life and in the end get no rewards. Plus it takes away all your rights for what? I'll tell you what so the wealthy and middle classes who work hard for their money are forced to give it all up and live life as a poor person regardless of all their hard work. That is why I think it appeals to the poor because it forces their bosses to live like them.
So for all the communists out there I ask you what the hell kind of government is this?

As for me I say LONG LIVE CAPITALISM.I am seventeen years old, and live with my parents (who are divorced). My father makes way more money then he should, and my mother is dirt poor. She works harder than he does. I have very high aspirations. I want to be the PM of Canada (seriously), and I will probably end up rich. Difference is, I believe that, in a world where people are starving on their feet, working their asses off for pennies a day, it is wrong to make (or, rather, keep) more than 20 000 a year (yes, canadian dollars). I want to get rich and use all that money to make the world a better place. I want to be rich because money is power in today's world. I want to be rich so that I can enact change that will make us all equal; brothers working together for a better world. I want to leave this world a communist planet, better than I found it.
I am a communist, and I want to work hard. I want to make the world a better place. I do not want to profit from the suffering of others.

No I'm not against paying taxes because the government needs that money to run, and even if in theory communism has no central government you have to look at real life communism. There is a very strong and oppressive central government. Also look at the world communism is a failure and capitalism works cause it offers freedom and progress.
the government needs the money to run... what? schools? hospitals? street lights?
all of these are a form of socialised redistributive justice (yes, even street lighting)


anyways, capitalism's "freedom" is hardly free. work, or starve. work under the opression of your bosses and, worse, the owners who take money from your - the worker's - pocket in the form of profit. profit is theft.

edit: sorry too lazy right now to string a proper sentence or arguement together :(

Name me one communist country that didn't reach economic problems or where the people didn't starve or that became wealthy and where the people weren't oppressed.

Also capitalism allows poeple to rise in social standing and progress in life.
That's the problem. For someone to be successful, someone else has to be miserable. The goal should be for all to be equally happy.

Also there is no reason for a farmer to be making as much money as a doctor.
Sure there is. Farmers sustain the world by providing food. Not to say that doctors also do not provide essential service. The real criminals are the CEOs and celebrities raking in millions more than their work merits.

"Only a life lived for others is a life worth living."

Name me one communist country that didn't reach economic problems or where the people didn't starve or that became wealthy and where the people weren't oppressed.
none, because there has yet to be any properly communist country. confusing the USSR or China with what is real communism is simply wrong. as Kanabia said, these nations were nothing more than state-capitalist totalitarian dictatorships.

The rich do not work: the proletariat are the ones who do the actual work, but the fruit of their labour is stolen from them by the bourgeois. Property is theft!

I do agree with one thing swimmingpool said though. Celebrities and sport players make way to much money.
Also if the rich don't work then who runs the companies. The workers don't.

Name me one communist country that didn't reach economic problems or where the people didn't starve or that became wealthy and where the people weren't oppressed.

The problem is in the naming of a communist "country". Communism is an internationalist ideology; it doesn't revolve around "countries" but rather the human race as a whole. A country cannot call itself "communist". You'll note that the USSR, China, etc. called themselves socialist (though personally I dispute their right to even that title), not communist. One reason I believe that they failed is because none of the countries had a capitalist infrastructure before their revolutions, so could not progress fully towards socialism.

Spain is the best example of a place that might have been successful, but the interference of the Nazi's, Italy, the Catholic church, etc. stopped it.

Also there is no reason for a farmer to be making as much money as a doctor.
ooh speaking of money this is why i subscribe to the UDCP's slightly odd ideals... money is an artificial tool created to trade goods in the short term. take a long-term and less selfish approach and you'll see that simply providing your life's worth of labour is a fair trade to recieve your fair share of the products of everybody else's labour
so i say down with money!
but of course, only in communism. this level of fairness and equality couldn't be achieved in capitalism of course

The only problem I have with equality and fairness is when my business and hard earned money is taken from me and given to the damn government and people I don't know.

Do you like roads, Vlad?

How about schools?

Hospitals?

Police departments?

Also if the rich don't work then who runs the companies. The workers don't.

In a socialist/communist society, the workers do.

The rich do not work: the proletariat are the ones who do the actual work, but the fruit of their labour is stolen from them by the bourgeois. Property is theft!
nonsense. You can say that CEO's make too much money, but people who get to that level of business success usually put in plenty of 80 hour weeks to get there.

There are some people who inherited all of their assets, but they are a pretty small portion of the people in the world who are well-off.

Remember, its the Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics and its even a stretch to call their economic system "socialist".

Name me one communist country that didn't reach economic problems or where the people didn't starve or that became wealthy and where the people weren't oppressed.

I dont ever remember getting a job from a poor person. The problem with communism is that it doesnt make wealth in any proportion as capitalism produces.

A fundamental difference between the two is that in capitalism you have a inner force to make you strive for a ever higher degree of success. In communism your work is taken and distributed to many other people. So in the end in capitalism if you work hard you get ahead and in communism if you work hard you stay were you are.

This whole things reminds me of the saying:

"hey, slow down your making me look bad"

True. Most people work for their high paying jobs.

I do agree with one thing swimmingpool said though. Celebrities and sport players make way to much money.
Also if the rich don't work then who runs the companies. The workers don't.

They do in a co-operative. And the rich don't work. Bill Gates, a multi-billionaire, has never done an honest day's work in his life. At the same time, around 1 billion peple live on less than a dollar a day. Is it feasible to say that old Bill works as hard as millions of people put together? Of course not. The rich "work" in the same way that criminals "work".

There are some people who inherited all of their assets, but they are a pretty small portion of the people in the world who are well-off.
bull. it takes money to make money. the majority of the rich around the world started off from very comfortable positions, able to invest what they already have and make yet more.
and in the UK there are certainly an awful lot of rich people who simply inherited their money... just look at the fucking royal family! :mad:

nonsense. You can say that CEO's make too much money, but people who get to that level of business success usually put in plenty of 80 hour weeks to get there.

There are some people who inherited all of their assets, but they are a pretty small portion of the people in the world who are well-off.

CEO's, managers, etc. are less of a concern than idle shareholders and the like that pull the strings from the dark...Like you said, it's a pretty small proportion of people- yet they control the vast majority of the world's resources- and more than likely have been born with an already sizable share.

A fundamental difference between the two is that in capitalism you have a inner force to make you strive for a ever higher degree of success. In communism your work is taken and distributed to many other people. So in the end in capitalism if you work hard you get ahead and in communism if you work hard you stay were you are.


It sounds like you're describing a religion. Do you really want to be making a faith-based arguement about ecconomics?

That's bull Pure Metal. If you want to start a company you need money that is true. But you can save or take out a lone at a place called a bank. And people who start their own businesses are put on a tight budget for awile.

bull. it takes money to make money. the majority of the rich around the world started off from very comfortable positions, able to invest what they already have and make yet more.
and in the UK there are certainly an awful lot of rich people who simply inherited their money... just look at the fucking royal family! :mad:


I contest this point. In the USA many immigrants came here with nothing and now run successful buisinesses from scratch. I personaly knew someone who came here with nothing, worked his way through college, earned his masters. Now he owns several apartment complexes and a car dealership.

Now under communism what is it to motivate me to do what he did? Oh wait the goverment gives me all that right?

I dont ever remember getting a job from a poor person. The problem with communism is that it doesnt make wealth in any proportion as capitalism produces.

A fundamental difference between the two is that in capitalism you have a inner force to make you strive for a ever higher degree of success. In communism your work is taken and distributed to many other people. So in the end in capitalism if you work hard you get ahead and in communism if you work hard you stay were you are.

You're missing the point. Capitalism makes the wealth, Socialism redistributes the wealth, and Communism is the truly equal society at the end. You don't need more wealth if you already have everything you need.

this all boils down to fairness, anyway, whether they worked for it or not.

is it fair that some people in the West sit on bank accounts worth millions, billions even, while 68% of the African population lives in a below-subsistance economic state, actually unable to make enough to survive? is it fair that a child dies every three seconds around the world from poverty-related disease? is it fair that people even in the west live under the poverty line, while some people who have apparently worked for what they have (see my previous post), sit on enough to feed and clothe al these people?
no.


of course some people in our capitalist societies are honest, hard working people, and communism is not against these people but against the bourgeois

bull. it takes money to make money. the majority of the rich around the world started off from very comfortable positions, able to invest what they already have and make yet more.
and in the UK there are certainly an awful lot of rich people who simply inherited their money... just look at the fucking royal family! :mad:

Well, my father was born dirt poor and managed to become very successful through hard work and wise decisions. It can be done. Some people start off in better positions, it's true. But various people have all kinds of advantages in life.

It sounds like you're describing a religion. Do you really want to be making a faith-based arguement about ecconomics?


When I speak of a inner force I am not speaking about religion as we all now its the opiate of the masses. I am talking about ambition. When everything is giving to you what is there to make things better?

I know a Indian family who immigrated to the US and arrived here with nothing and now own two corner stores.

Name me one communist country that didn't reach economic problems or where the people didn't starve or that became wealthy and where the people weren't oppressed.
Oppressed? I would be perfectly happy living without some of the rights that capitalist nations give their citizens, as long as all other citizens had the same rights as me. You could venture to say that American citizens were oppressed because they are not allowed to walk up and shoot any random person on the street. Oppression is relative.

They do in a co-operative. And the rich don't work. Bill Gates, a multi-billionaire, has never done an honest day's work in his life. At the same time, around 1 billion peple live on less than a dollar a day. Is it feasible to say that old Bill works as hard as millions of people put together? Of course not. The rich "work" in the same way that criminals "work".

The frequency of stress related ailments amongst the very wealthy tends to refute your claim. Many wealthy people work very hard. Your choice of Bill Gates as an example may not have been the best you could have made. He is, presently, a philanthrope.

A better simile with regards to criminals and work is... 'the Don at the top of a crime family works as hard as a CEO, his drug pusher on the street corner works as hard as someone who stocks shelves for a living' or something...

Crime (in the US) is largely a function of relative ecconomic opportunity...

That's bull Pure Metal. If you want to start a company you need money that is true. But you can save or take out a lone at a place called a bank. And people who start their own businesses are put on a tight budget for awile.

This is true for about 5% of the world's population. The remainder struggle from day to day life without being able to worry about investing any money.

Well, my father was born dirt poor and managed to become very successful through hard work and wise decisions. It can be done. Some people start off in better positions, it's true. But various people have all kinds of advantages in life.
true but your father is a relatively rare occurrance). my parents, too, came from poor backgrounds (farm labourers) but have worked themselves up to be able to afford what our family needs.

myself, and communism, is not attacking these people. its the rich bourgeois who hoarde money - who own the businesses that steal money from the worker's pocket - that i am attacking. and the majority of these types did not start out as poor farm labourers, by any means :rolleyes:

See what Jah Bootie said proves my point. Capitalism drives people to want to succeed.

You're missing the point. Capitalism makes the wealth, Socialism redistributes the wealth, and Communism is the truly equal society at the end. You don't need more wealth if you already have everything you need.
Who is to say what I need? We live in a world with scarce resources. I want to make sure that if things go downhill I will have provided for my children and their children.

And if things are going to be the same for me whether or not I work hard, why would I work hard? The people working hard to get ahead in this world are creating the wealth that allows us to live in the relative luxury that our time in history affords.

Well, my father was born dirt poor and managed to become very successful through hard work and wise decisions. It can be done. Some people start off in better positions, it's true. But various people have all kinds of advantages in life.

It can be done, but not everyone can do it.

You're missing the point. Capitalism makes the wealth, Socialism redistributes the wealth, and Communism is the truly equal society at the end. You don't need more wealth if you already have everything you need.

Exactly.

This is true for about 5% of the world's population. The remainder struggle from day to day life without being able to worry about investing any money.


Freedom and an end to corruption in many of the poorest countries would fix this. remember that terrible tsunami? Billions flouded into the regions and much was lost to corruption and terror cells skimming from the top.

It can be done, but not everyone can do it.
It's the desire to do this that creates wealth though. A person who establishes a business has to put in hours of work, take tons of risks, takes on responsibilities and worry and stress. Why would someone do that for no payoff?

Originally Posted by Kanabia
You're missing the point. Capitalism makes the wealth, Socialism redistributes the wealth, and Communism is the truly equal society at the end. You don't need more wealth if you already have everything you need.

Who determines when I have everything I need? perhaps I want to have 6 mansions and 24 cars and be able to light my cigars with 100 dollar bills... LoL

I dont have to worry about some goon with a gun showing up and stealing my money... well thats if i pay my taxes :p

Also those billions of dollars that goes to all those releif funds guess what they come from the money the government taxes the companies and it's owners. Remember Bill Gates my make billions but the government still gets a percent of that and that goes into all your public housing. So without the corporations the government wouldn't be able to supply those things.

true but your father is a relatively rare occurrance). my parents, too, came from poor backgrounds (farm labourers) but have worked themselves up to be able to afford what our family needs.

myself, and communism, is not attacking these people. its the rich bourgeois who hoarde money - who own the businesses that steal money from the worker's pocket - that i am attacking. and the majority of these types did not start out as poor farm labourers, by any means :rolleyes:

It couldn't be that rare, or our entire country would be predominantly lower class rather than middle; my grandfathers worked as farmers and coal miners and worked themselves up to running a fiberglass factory and a corner grocery. My dad worked as a construction worker and paid for night school to earn his degree in business, and is now VP of Sales at Argo-tech, a company that makes 82% of the world's aircraft fueal pumps.

Why is it wrong to have money? The workers of today earn what the company thinks they deserve, and it is the company's choice to hire them in the first place.

Name me one communist country that didn't reach economic problems or where the people didn't starve or that became wealthy and where the people weren't oppressed.

Socialist Russia with Lenin was progressing to communism, if Trotsky had taken over who noes the world may be a very different place. Stalin was power hungry as was Mao etc and true communism has never existed in the world any way.

Who is to say what I need? We live in a world with scarce resources. I want to make sure that if things go downhill I will have provided for my children and their children.

Well, what do you need? Do you absolutely need iPods? 200cm Plasma TVs? Of course not- you want them, but you can live a perfectly comfortable life without them. Our resources aren't so scarce. We produce more than enough food to feed the world, but much of it is wasted as a result of poor distribution. As a result, people starve.

And if things are going to be the same for me whether or not I work hard, why would I work hard? The people working hard to get ahead in this world are creating the wealth that allows us to live in the relative luxury that our time in history affords.

But the point is, you won't need to create the wealth. Everyone already has the wealth.

Freedom and an end to corruption in many of the poorest countries would fix this. remember that terrible tsunami? Billions flouded into the regions and much was lost to corruption and terror cells skimming from the top.

You think less corruption would really help those countries? Look at America (where I happen to be). There are tens of millions of poor people, who would otherwise be living good lives if wealth was evenly distributed.

10% of our population controls 80% of the wealth. That just isn't right.

When I speak of a inner force I am not speaking about religion as we all now its the opiate of the masses. I am talking about ambition. When everything is giving to you what is there to make things better?

How much is 'enough' then?

How many dollars would you have to make to be happy?

Why would you work to make a dollar more than that?

Is it possible for everyone to be a millionare, or does capitalism require that, no matter how hard everyone works, some must fall short of their goals?

Is hard work the goal, or the means to achieve it?

In my opinion, the main problem with Communism, is that is assumes that all people are equal and can do that same things, which is not true. Each and every individual is born unique. Communism assumes that Albert Einstien, and a garbage man are the same person. People arnt the same, people arnt equal. Some are born with amazing athelic abilities, some with height, some with strengh, some with talent, some with intelligence. People are not equal. Every individual is his/her own person.

So you are asking if I need IPODS. Is it a must have no but it shows the progress that can only happen in a capitalist country were as in a communist country you tend to be anti-progress and pro-backwards.

In my opinion, the main problem with Communism, is that is assumes that all people are equal and can do that same things, which is not true. Each and every individual is born unique. Communism assumes that Albert Einstien, and a garbage man are the same person. People arnt the same, people arnt equal. Some are born with amazing athelic abilities, some with height, some with strengh, some with talent, some with intelligence. People are not equal. Every individual is his/her own person.

Stereotype often?

So you are asking if I need IPODS. Is it a must have no but it shows the progress that can only happen in a capitalist country were as in a communist country you tend to be anti-progress and pro-backwards.

Excuse me, but...

...No.

Stereotype often?
I knew someone would try to make it into a stereotypical racist kinda thing. It has nothing to do with Stereotypes, it has nothing to do with race, religion, birthplace.....WHATEVER. Every single individual is born unique.

In my opinion, the main problem with Communism, is that is assumes that all people are equal and can do that same things, which is not true. Each and every individual is born unique. Communism assumes that Albert Einstien, and a garbage man are the same person. People arnt the same, people arnt equal. Some are born with amazing athelic abilities, some with height, some with strengh, some with talent, some with intelligence. People are not equal. Every individual is his/her own person.

Ah Cultural Marxism takes center stage...

Sure Bill Gates works hard, but so does a farmer, a small town busness owner, a single parent working 2 jobs to pay the bills. Why does Bill Gates deserve this money more then any other person for doing roughly the same amount of 'work'. Isn't that just as unfair as wealth distrubtion?

I knew someone would try to make it into a stereotypical racist kinda thing. It has nothing to do with Stereotypes, it has nothing to do with race, religion, birthplace.....WHATEVER. Every single individual is born unique.

Wow, you don't even know what I'm talking about. You stereotyped the form of government. That seems to happen a lot with Communism, thanks to assholes like Stalin and Mao.

In my opinion, the main problem with Communism, is that is assumes that all people are equal and can do that same things, which is not true. Each and every individual is born unique. Communism assumes that Albert Einstien, and a garbage man are the same person. People arnt the same, people arnt equal. Some are born with amazing athelic abilities, some with height, some with strengh, some with talent, some with intelligence. People are not equal. Every individual is his/her own person.

Communism is an old idea... marx's writings in 1848 probably aren't the be-all and end-all of good socio-economic policy...

that being said, Communism is -actually- saying that we need -both- Einstein and people to grow food for him to eat. You can't have general relativity without both.

I will bet anyone $100 that Potaria is a liberal. ;)

Posted by The Atlantian islands: Every single individual is born unique.

I agree a 100% pure equal society cannot exist.

I will bet anyone $100 that Potaria is a liberal. ;)

We've gotten to the passive insults, now, haven't we?

You think less corruption would really help those countries? Look at America (where I happen to be). There are tens of millions of poor people, who would otherwise be living good lives if wealth was evenly distributed.

No, that's not true. How many of those people are poor because they made bad choices, didn't put the effort in at schools, or waste their money on drugs/alcohol and don't get help for it. Throwing money at people never solves the problem; you can give them money, but you have to make them take responsibility for themselves as well

eh this thread bores me. i find i am repeating myself over and over. I think ill catch the next commi bashing thread or capitalism bashing thread some other time. :headbang:

We've gotten to the passive insults, now, haven't we?
Yes we have, btw I misunderstood about the stereotype thing sorry

Posted by Compuq: Sure Bill Gates works hard, but so does a farmer, a small town busness owner, a single parent working 2 jobs to pay the bills. Why does Bill Gates deserve this money more then any other person for doing roughly the same amount of 'work'. Isn't that just as unfair as wealth distrubtion?
Gates deserves it cause he started off small and worked hard to become successful.

Freedom and an end to corruption in many of the poorest countries would fix this.

Does not the desire for wealth and power breed corruption in the first place?


Who determines when I have everything I need? perhaps I want to have 6 mansions and 24 cars and be able to light my cigars with 100 dollar bills... LoL

I dont have to worry about some goon with a gun showing up and stealing my money... well thats if i pay my taxes :p

That's "Want" and not "Need"
Also those billions of dollars that goes to all those releif funds guess what they come from the money the government taxes the companies and it's owners. Remember Bill Gates my make billions but the government still gets a percent of that and that goes into all your public housing. So without the corporations the government wouldn't be able to supply those things.

Yes they will, because the workers are producing the goods to build the public housing in the first place.

So you are asking if I need IPODS. Is it a must have no but it shows the progress that can only happen in a capitalist country were as in a communist country you tend to be anti-progress and pro-backwards.

It doesn't show anything of the sort. We waste huge resources on luxury fads while billions struggle from day to day. This is a rather strange concept of progress, in my opinion. (psst...and remember, there's no such thing as a communist country.)

In my opinion, the main problem with Communism, is that is assumes that all people are equal and can do that same things, which is not true. Each and every individual is born unique. Communism assumes that Albert Einstien, and a garbage man are the same person. People arnt the same, people arnt equal. Some are born with amazing athelic abilities, some with height, some with strengh, some with talent, some with intelligence. People are not equal. Every individual is his/her own person.

Each person is an individual, and each individual deserves to have the same standard of living as a birthright. You can't seriously believe that bad luck justifies having people starve and living in squalor while the fortunate are quite the opposite.

No, that's not true. How many of those people are poor because they made bad choices, didn't put the effort in at schools, or waste their money on drugs/alcohol and don't get help for it. Throwing money at people never solves the problem; you can give them money, but you have to make them take responsibility for themselves as well

Go to a homeless shelter and talk to some people there. You'll feel really bad about what you just posted.

eh this thread bores me. i find i am repeating myself over and over. I think ill catch the next commi bashing thread or capitalism bashing thread some other time. :headbang:

Or someone could start a "Why don't we try a moderate form of socialism with a progressive income tax and universal health care" thread...

Gates deserves it cause he started off small and worked hard to become successful.

Actually, he stole technology from others, such as Steve Jobs. Look it up.

He doesn't deserve nearly as much as he's made over the years.

No, that's not true. How many of those people are poor because they made bad choices, didn't put the effort in at schools, or waste their money on drugs/alcohol and don't get help for it. Throwing money at people never solves the problem; you can give them money, but you have to make them take responsibility for themselves as well
EXACTLY COULDNT HAVE SAID IT BETTER MYSELF good job man well said. This is exactly the situation in Africa just nobody has the balls to say it because they are deemed racist bigot and all that b.s. We keep throwing billions of dollars at Africa and what do they do.......have wars kill all the white people waste our money.....its amazing that nobody says anything about this

ok last thread. here is the perfect image to sum up the two sides.

think of communism and capitalism as a race. In capitalism everyone more or less starts at the startling at the same point while communism has every one finish at the same point. Ok now im done :headbang: :headbang:

Let history be our guide....

How Many "good" communist states have there been? (by good I mean a happy, safe, population and a strong economy)

And remember China doesn't count.... they haven't been communist for years

How Many Evil Cruel, and unsuccessful communist nations have there been?

thats all I have to say

eh this thread bores me. i find i am repeating myself over and over. I think ill catch the next commi bashing thread or capitalism bashing thread some other time. :headbang:

I'm glad i'm not the only one getting that feeling.

Well, what do you need? Do you absolutely need iPods? 200cm Plasma TVs? Of course not- you want them, but you can live a perfectly comfortable life without them. Our resources aren't so scarce. We produce more than enough food to feed the world, but much of it is wasted as a result of poor distribution. As a result, people starve.



But the point is, you won't need to create the wealth. Everyone already has the wealth.
We live in a world of scarcity, though. As the population grows, wealth needs to grow too. This requires hard work and dedication. Humans are organisms, and like all organisms we learn behavior through punishment and reward. We work because if we don't, we starve, and if we work hard, we are able to have more. Take that away, and there is no incentive to work.

I'm glad i'm not the only one getting that feeling.

I'm getting it, too... But, there's just something about arguing with consumerists.

I think I might like the feeling I get from my blood boiling!

ok last thread. here is the perfect image to sum up the two sides.

think of communism and capitalism as a race. In capitalism everyone more or less starts at the startling at the same point while communism has every one finish at the same point. Ok now im done :headbang: :headbang:

No. In Communism everyone would start at the same place and not go anwhere, not even get to the finish line.

How can communism work lets say we decide were all comies tomorrow who gets the privilige of deciding how much is needed to survive how much we eat, what we were ,what we drive , who runs the companies to make this if theres no central government and who gives you or anyone the right to tell me how to live my life. I think you've been conned from certain individuals who would like to have power that all will be fair under a communist system.
The only way for communism to work is for the human race to go 5000 years back and become hunters and gathers .

step 1 man hunts
step 2 woman gathers and cooks
step 3 eat
step 4 have sex (while pounding women over the head with club)
step 5 go to sleep
step 6 repeat steps 1-6 = communism and equality.

Let history be our guide....

How Many "good" communist states have there been? (by good I mean a happy, safe, population and a strong economy)

And remember China doesn't count.... they haven't been communist for years

How Many Evil Cruel, and unsuccessful communist nations have there been?

thats all I have to say

And then there are Norway, Sweden, Holland, England, Canada, France, and Germany... while not Communist, all are less capitalist than the USA...

The United States isn't a pure capitalist country, and Sweden is not purely communist... consider where the country has been over the last 500 years before you comment on recent events... (Russia has pretty much -always- sucked, regardless of its form of gov't)

Let history be our guide....

How Many "good" communist states have there been? (by good I mean a happy, safe, population and a strong economy)

And remember China doesn't count.... they haven't been communist for years

How Many Evil Cruel, and unsuccessful communist nations have there been?

thats all I have to say

Ugh. Please go back and read everything i've already said.

In point form:

- There is no such thing as a communist country, as it is an internationalist ideology.
- "communist" countries of the C20th were state capitalist, run like huge corporations
- "communist" countries have all been poor and in all cases pre-capitalist (or borderline, as with Russia).
- The capitalist stage of development is required to create wealth before wealth can be redistributed.

Sure Bill Gates works hard, but so does a farmer, a small town busness owner, a single parent working 2 jobs to pay the bills. Why does Bill Gates deserve this money more then any other person for doing roughly the same amount of 'work'. Isn't that just as unfair as wealth distrubtion?

No, because Bill Gates' wealth comes from his stock, and the money he makes comes from the sale of a product people want. They are willing to buy it, and so the money he has is the product of that sale, because the value of Microsoft stock is totally dependent on sales of products.

The determinant for a person's wealth isn't the amount of work they do, but the value of the work they do. Two minimum wage jobs don't contribute much to the economy, and they require almost no qualification; thus, to make them equal with a more demanding job is illogical. The key to earnings is four factors:

1.Supply/Demand for the position
2.The skills Required
3.The value of the work
4.The consumer

Ugh. Please go back and read everything i've already said.

In point form:

- There is no such thing as a communist country, as it is an internationalist ideology.
- "communist" countries of the C20th were state capitalist, run like huge corporations
- "communist" countries have all been poor and in all cases pre-capitalist (or borderline, as with Russia).
- The capitalist stage of development is required to create wealth before wealth can be redistributed.

And thus it will always be. communism by its nature, breeds corruption

And then there are Norway, Sweden, Holland, England, Canada, France, and Germany... while not Communist, all are less capitalist than the USA...

The United States isn't a pure capitalist country, and Sweden is not purely communist... consider where the country has been over the last 500 years before you comment on recent events... (Russia has pretty much -always- sucked, regardless of its form of gov't)

You gotta give some props to the Soviets. Their Red Army kicked the Nazis asses all the way back to Berlin.....But the Soviets sucked too because they were a bunch of Commies and equally if not worse than Hiter and the Nazis

I take that back the Soviets WERE worse than the Nazis.

Go to a homeless shelter and talk to some people there. You'll feel really bad about what you just posted.

No, because I don't want to let them out to fend for themselves. I want to help them, but not make them dependant on government handouts that will just be wasted or stolen. Instead of a money check, give them vouchers for education, and "credits" only spendable on food and necessities. Provide free counseling on drugs and alcohol, and provide them with the supplies necessary for education. Give them everything necessary to succeed. We need to teach them how to support themselves, not just take others' money that they earned and waste it.

You gotta give some props to the Soviets. Their Red Army kicked the Nazis asses all the way back to Berlin.....But the Soviets sucked too because they were a bunch of Commies and equally if not worse than Hiter and the Nazis

That's where you're right --- And wrong.

Soviet Russia was Totalitarian, with Stalin (among others) as its dictator.

That's where you're right --- And wrong.
Soviet Russia was Totalitarian, with Stalin (among others) as its dictator.

Well, seeing as how the state is an inherent contradiction of Communism, Stalin was more of a totalitarian statist rather than a Communist.

No, because I don't want to let them out to fend for themselves. I want to help them, but not make them dependant on government handouts that will just be wasted or stolen. Instead of a money check, give them vouchers for education, and "credits" only spendable on food and necessities. Provide free counseling on drugs and alcohol, and provide them with the supplies necessary for education. Give them everything necessary to succeed. We need to teach them how to support themselves, not just take others' money that they earned and waste it.

Ah, so you're saying you'd rather let them starve, just so people don't have to pay money "out of their pockets"?

If things were the way you want them to be, I might've died a long time ago (I'm currently on welfare).

That's where you're right --- And wrong.

Soviet Russia was Totalitarian, with Stalin (among others) as its dictator.

YES! it was, and so was every other communist nation

Communism is a DREAM! It looks great on paper, no one denies that

BUT IT WILL NEVER WORK

how many times can people say "Well my communist nation, wil be different" Before they realize its not possible

Well, seeing as how the state is an inherent contradiction of Communism, Stalin was more of a totalitarian statist rather than a Communist.

That's what I just said. This post was highly unnecessary...

Communism isn't an attack on Doctors, or small busness person who want to be successful. Its against people who exploit others to get rich.

EXACTLY COULDNT HAVE SAID IT BETTER MYSELF good job man well said. This is exactly the situation in Africa just nobody has the balls to say it because they are deemed racist bigot and all that b.s. We keep throwing billions of dollars at Africa and what do they do.......have wars kill all the white people waste our money.....its amazing that nobody says anything about this

How do you think Africa got fucked up to begin with? The most messed up parts of Africa were invaded, pilaged, raped, and violated by Western governments. Take The Rawandan Genocide for example. Most people who don't know shit about anything blame the Rawandans for it, but it was actually the Belgian Government's fault for taking over the place and creating a racist seperation between the two different types of Rawandans that lived there, deeming one "inferrior" to the other because they didn't have caucasian-esque features.

When the Belgians left they put these "white feature having" ones in power, and that ignited jealousy and anger for the ones who were being walked over, and THAT'S a small example of why Africa is so messed up. So don't bitch about Africa being messed up when it's most likely your government's fault. They fucked it up, they have to fix it. Or at least that's how I see it.

That's what I just said. This post was highly unnecessary...

Just wanted to clarify for new posters to the thread.

Ah, so you're saying you'd rather let them starve, just so people don't have to pay money "out of their pockets"?

If things were the way you want them to be, I might've died a long time ago (I'm currently on welfare).

The government should HELP PEOPLE HELP THEMSELVES

So yes, welfare and such should exist to a point, but only to that point... once its clear that that person will never pull themselves out of the gutter, I believe we are justified in saying "Screw You"

So unless you intend to get a job soon and quit mooching, I do hope one wahy or another you cease to be a drag on everyone else

Communism isn't an attack on Doctors, or small busness person who want to be successful. Its against people who exploit others to get rich.
Somehow I think that such a distinction will not be made. If I start a business and I need people to work for me, by a communist definition I am stealing. Not to mention all that personal property I am amassing. I'm pretty sure outlawing private enterprise is a pretty huge attack on small business owners.

We live in a world of scarcity, though. As the population grows, wealth needs to grow too. This requires hard work and dedication. Humans are organisms, and like all organisms we learn behavior through punishment and reward. We work because if we don't, we starve, and if we work hard, we are able to have more. Take that away, and there is no incentive to work.

I'd dispute that, actually. Have a look how the population of modern developed states (particularly in Europe) is decreasing slowly. As countries get more developed, the population growth rate slows. (well, technically, it's a bell-curve, peaking in the mid-industrial era) If there is a redistribution of wealth, it could lead to an end to the population explosion. That's a separate topic, though.

No. In Communism everyone would start at the same place and not go anwhere, not even get to the finish line.

No. We run the race as capitalists, and finish as communists. :)

who gets the privilige of deciding how much is needed to survive how much we eat, what we were ,what we drive , who runs the companies to make this if theres no central government

The workers. If you have, say, 10kg of rice and 10 adult people to feed, what would the fair ration be? Just because there is no central government doesn't mean there is no governance.

who gives you or anyone the right to tell me how to live my life.
Nobody. You live your life, and give all you can to the good of society, and nothing more can be asked of you.


The only way for communism to work is for the human race to go 5000 years back and become hunters and gathers .

step 1 man hunts
step 2 woman gathers and cooks
step 3 eat
step 4 have sex (while pounding women over the head with club)
step 5 go to sleep
step 6 repeat steps 1-6 = communism and equality.

Very funny, and yes, feasibly, communism works on that scale. But wouldn't it logically be even easier if we had all the technology we do today to help us make what we need without resorting to that level? There is no reason we can't do it.

Communism isn't an attack on Doctors, or small busness person who want to be successful. Its against people who exploit others to get rich.

Actually it IS against both of those groups

oh, and exploitation is part of human nature, better get used to it

Are all the communists in this game at the bottom of the social ladder, and just find it impossible to climb it. Or can't bring themselves to climb it. All communism realy is when you get down to it is taking away from the wealthy who HAVE puthard work into building their companies, and giving it all to the poor. So it is nothing but stealing. That is why nobody can increase their standard of living. So you work all your life and in the end get no rewards. Plus it takes away all your rights for what? I'll tell you what so the wealthy and middle classes who work hard for their money are forced to give it all up and live life as a poor person regardless of all their hard work. That is why I think it appeals to the poor because it forces their bosses to live like them.
So for all the communists out there I ask you what the hell kind of government is this?

As for me I say LONG LIVE CAPITALISM.


Answer to your first question: No.

Answer to your second question: The one you're talking about? It's a fantasy that never existed and was never proposed by anyone serious, and which certainly isn't communist, but which is absurd enough that you can easily shout it down. The intellectual equivalent of carpet bombing Laos.

Ah, so you're saying you'd rather let them starve, just so people don't have to pay money "out of their pockets"?

If things were the way you want them to be, I might've died a long time ago (I'm currently on welfare).

No, I don't want anyone to starve. I want to improve them and help them rise above their current level, not just throw money at them and let them do whatever with it. Too many people are slaves to the welfare system with no opportunity to improve. By giving them money in forms that can only be spent on certain items (like food), and providing the option for more money in the form of vouchers for education and its costs, we could actually solve the problem. This would be dependant on various factors, such as job training, counseling, and psychological help for those who need it It would be cheaper and more efficent than our current system. I would not mind paying taxes, as long as they produce some benefit and don't just throw money at the problem.

How do you think Africa got fucked up to begin with? The most messed up parts of Africa were invaded, pilaged, raped, and violated by Western governments. Take The Rawandan Genocide for example. Most people who don't know shit about anything blame the Rawandans for it, but it was actually the Belgian Government's fault for taking over the place and creating a racist seperation between the two different types of Rawandans that lived there, deeming one "inferrior" to the other because they didn't have caucasian-esque features.

When the Belgians left they put these "white feature having" ones in power, and that ignited jealousy and anger for the ones who were being walked over, and THAT'S a small example of why Africa is so messed up. So don't bitch about Africa being messed up when it's most likely your government's fault. They fucked it up, they have to fix it. Or at least that's how I see it.

That is the biggest load of bullshit I have ever read, Africa has been shit since the begining of time with the exception of ancient Egypt (whos wonders were built by slave labor of Jews) Africa has done NOTHING the only half decent part is South Africa and that only got that way because the British built it. Then all the Africans threw out/killed the whites and took it over and now South Africa is shit. Thats why all the South Africans are moving to America.

Actually it IS against both of those groups

oh, and exploitation is part of human nature, better get used to it

So is racism. Should I accept that too?

No. We run the race as capitalists, and finish as communists. :)

No. You would finish right back at the staring line.

And thus it will always be. communism by its nature, breeds corruption

No. More point form to avoid needless repetition!

- Democratic communism has existed previously. (Eg. Spain.)
- It was crushed violently by capitalist interests.

Communism by its nature does not breed corruption at all. The unending pursuit of wealth and power - a product of capitalism - breeds corruption.

Ugh, i'm going to bed. This is futile.

the worker in a factory works much harder than the guy sitting in a fat chair making more money through investment of his money.

the riches get richer, they dont always have to earn it.

For the worker, every dollar is filled with blood and sweat.

The concept of taking away people's money is idiotic. The whole system favors the riches, the only money that is taken away by is from the poor.


P.S: captialism is not corrupted?

So is racism. Should I accept that too?

No, racism must be taught..... put a bunch of three year olds of different races in a room and watch them

You will find they make absolutly no choices based on race

That is the biggest load of bullshit I have ever read, Africa has been shit since the begining of time with the exception of ancient Egypt (whos wonders were built by slave labor of Jews) Africa has done NOTHING the only half decent part is South Africa and that only got that way because the British built it. Then all the Africans threw out/killed the whites and took it over and now South Africa is shit. Thats why all the South Africans are moving to America.

No, the African continent was badly ruined by the imperialism of the 1500's-1900's. The kingdoms of Mali, Dahomey, Ghana, Songhey, and many more were pillars of learning, of trade, and culture for centuries. Egypt was only the best known, neither the largest nor the most powerful. Their influence was crushed when Europeans arrived and began the biggest rape of a continent's wealth, people, and culture in the history of the world.

No. You would finish right back at the staring line.

*sigh* I've stated my position. I've stated what communism is, what it aims to do, *and* what it doesn't aim to do. And yet, I get worthless jibes like this thrown back. The concept of communism is an evolution from capitalism. Do you understand this?

Oh yeah great culture.....Learn canibalism and how to fight intertribal wars

No, the African continent was badly ruined by the imperialism of the 1500's-1900's. The kingdoms of Mali, Dahomey, Ghana, Songhey, and many more were pillars of learning, of trade, and culture for centuries. Egypt was only the best known, neither the largest nor the most powerful. Their influence was crushed when Europeans arrived and began the biggest rape of a continent's wealth, people, and culture in the history of the world.

careful not to step in the bullshit.......

All of the above mentioned nations had either fallen, or were in serious decline at the time of european involvement

And you must also remember that many iif not most slavers were blacks themselves

so are the europeans blameless? no, but its not in any way completely their fault

As for me I say LONG LIVE CAPITALISM.

I was just having this conversation today, actually. Is capitalism necessarily fair? When you get down to it, privately owned buisnesses have known to make monopolies in the past, and there are bound to be more in the future. This makes it hard for people to get products they need. Captialism isn't necessarily fool-proof.

Well, neither is Communism. My only question is why can't people put aside greed and have everyone look out for everyone? Why can't we all live an existance where our neighbours and us are equals? Where you aren't looked down upon? I agree that this may be impossible to achieve, but what is Capitalism without the idea of Communism?

I mean, I'm not against capitalism or communism, communism has its pros. We, Americans, live in a society that is about people getting ahead with hard work. We say we're capitalists. Then why are my friends and family working their asses off and getting paid half a paycheck? I'd re-check what capitalism has done for the poorer parts of American society before bashing communism.

That is the biggest load of bullshit I have ever read, Africa has been shit since the begining of time with the exception of ancient Egypt (whos wonders were built by slave labor of Jews) Africa has done NOTHING the only half decent part is South Africa and that only got that way because the British built it. Then all the Africans threw out/killed the whites and took it over and now South Africa is shit. Thats why all the South Africans are moving to America.

And what you just typed is the biggest load of bullshit I'VE ever read. Explain the Rawandan Genocide then, give me your point of view on what you think about that? You'd probably say that the Belgian Goverment was 100% correct in taking over the country and making a distinction between the people, making one class inferior. Then you'd probably go on about something like how Africans are nothing but wild animals that can't be controlled, would I be correct? And let me guess, South Africa was fine and dandy when it was segragated and Africans didn't have the same priviliages as white people? Please, get out of my face with that bullshit ok?

*sigh* I've stated my position. I've stated what communism is, what it aims to do, *and* what it doesn't aim to do. And yet, I get worthless jibes like this thrown back. The concept of communism is an evolution from capitalism. Do you understand this?
Yes. Concepts are great and all, but they have to be realistic. Communism is not realistic. Do you understand this?

Yes, europe did exploit africa..... yes, they did rather get screwed

But they've had amplr time to pull themselves out of the gutter and they still havent done it

its time for them to get their act together, and stop blaming it on what happened in the past

Some people are asking "who has the right to determine how much I need to live?" or "who has the right to determine how much I need to be happy". The answer to the first is obvious - biology. If you starve to death, you obviously didn't have enough to eat. If you die of exposure, you obviously didn't have enough shelter. In short, a society and/or government - whether it supports democracy, despotism, communism, socialism, capitalism, nazism, anarchism, or Ice Cream Thursdays - would have to be pretty dim if it couldn't work out what a person needed to survive.

It could be argued that some need more to survive than others, such as the ill needing more medical care - this is why we have doctors and other experts who are able to make that determination.

The second question is one that I'd like to turn around: capitalists, how much material wealth DO you need to live a satisfying life? More to the point: what, specifically, do you need that wealth for to make your life meaningful and complete?

The workers. If you have, say, 10kg of rice and 10 adult people to feed, what would the fair ration be? Just because there is no central government doesn't mean there is no governance.


Nobody. You live your life, and give all you can to the good of society, and nothing more can be asked of you.




Very funny, and yes, feasibly, communism works on that scale. But wouldn't it logically be even easier if we had all the technology we do today to help us make what we need without resorting to that level? There is no reason we can't do it.

Your hoping that the human race can come to an agreement on the rice situation , and on everything else in society that has to do with modern day life ,thats an impossible goal , just like world peace , nice but impossible.
If that was the case we wouldnt be in this mess to begin with , the problem is everyone has different needs and goals so the whole communism idea will never work.

Capatalism is by no means the holy grail ,but with some work and some ideas from socialism we might be able to find a system that works for most of us , I doubt it we have 5000 years of trying to get it right and all we have accomplished is to create a hell hole , sorry to cut this short but i have to go hunting. :sniper:

Oh yeah great culture.....Learn canibalism and how to fight intertribal wars

Well gee, open up a history textbook and see how many wars fought between Western peoples you come across.

Yes. Concepts are great and all, but they have to be realistic. Communism is not realistic. Do you understand this?

So, are you saying that it's wrong to hope for something better than the existance we're living right now?

Yes. Concepts are great and all, but they have to be realistic. Communism is not realistic. Do you understand this?

well put

So, are you saying that it's wrong to hope for something better than the existance we're living right now?

no, its wrong to hope for soemthing thats impossible to achieve...... when it first came out, sure, give it a try, but now we know: thanks to that great teacher called histroy, that its not gonna happen

Oh noes, not another communism vs. capitalism thread!
Since nobody else wants to say it, I will-- Both are decent economic models.
Really, they are.

The difference is, one has fallen off the face of the planet, and the other is gaining momentum everyday. Communism is a relic of the last century, and the chances of a worldwide return to the red are nonexistant. It's not going to happen. At best, save your breath to defend democratic socialism.

Communism is dead. Very, very dead.

Here is a suggestion for communists. Stop blamming all your problems on companies and the middle and upper classes and start working to increase your own standard of living. You know something more realistic then waiting for utopia that will never come, because a man's greed will eventualy drive him to do more.

And what you just typed is the biggest load of bullshit I'VE ever read. Explain the Rawandan Genocide then, give me your point of view on what you think about that? You'd probably say that the Belgian Goverment was 100% correct in taking over the country and making a distinction between the people, making one class inferior. Then you'd probably go on about something like how Africans are nothing but wild animals that can't be controlled, would I be correct? And let me guess, South Africa was fine and dandy when it was segragated and Africans didn't have the same priviliages as white people? Please, get out of my face with that bullshit ok?
The Rawandan Genocide is not what I'm talking about. Your being wayyy to specific. Im talking the whole continent in general. And it is a piece of shit, always has been and it is not making any changes that lead me to beleive that is not going to be. And on that comment about us raping your Utopia continent, well as something said above. The blacks sold their own people to us, they fight intertribal wars, took slaves and sold them to us. So dont you dare make accusations like that without letting out both sides of the story. African civilization is the same as it was thousands of years ago with the exception of South Africa, which was built by British. As for the segregation, you act like it is only the Europeans who did this. How bout the segregation between tribes in Africa, the slavery, murder, canibalism, rape, aids, all that....Oh I guess you just overlooked all that huh....

Yes. Concepts are great and all, but they have to be realistic. Communism is not realistic. Do you understand this?

You haven't done an adequate job in showing me how it isn't realistic. I only get the same arguments, which i've already addressed.

Your hoping that the human race can come to an agreement on the rice situation , and on everything else in society that has to do with modern day life ,thats an impossible goal , just like world peace , nice but impossible.

No, its not. Without the desire for wealth, nobody is going to kill someone else to take their stuff. Everyone gets a fair share; how is this "impossible"?

If that was the case we wouldnt be in this mess to begin with , the problem is everyone has different needs and goals so the whole communism idea will never work.

Yes, everyone has different needs, but we can ensure that all of these are met. Children may need more food. An elderly person may need medicine. And so on. I'd agree that everyone has different wants and some of these desires are unrealistic, but everything else is workable.

I need sleep. I'll read any replies later.

no, its wrong to hope for soemthing thats impossible to achieve...... when it first came out, sure, give it a try, but now we know: thanks to that great teacher called histroy, that its not gonna happen

But how many truly communist societies have ever been around? Stalin's Russia was never communist, which is where Americans gain a lot of contempt towards Communism. You know, the Cold War and such...

YES FINALY!!! Someone else finaly realizes that communism is DEAD!!!

Well gee, open up a history textbook and see how many wars fought between Western peoples you come across.

Well gee, still ignoring my post on canibalism......hmm how convienent

Communism is not realistic.

Captialism is not realistic.

Its as real as you make it. ALL IDEALOIGIES ARE NOT REALISTIC.

Bullshit.

Communism is not realistic.

Captialism is not realistic.

Its as real as you make it. ALL IDEALOIGIES ARE NOT REALISTIC.

Bullshit.

Capitalism is realistic. America is run by the concept of Capitalism...which is a good thing.

careful not to step in the bullshit.......

All of the above mentioned nations had either fallen, or were in serious decline at the time of european involvement

And you must also remember that many iif not most slavers were blacks themselves

so are the europeans blameless? no, but its not in any way completely their fault

There was a great deal of islamic imperialism previous to the european crack at it...

But how many truly communist societies have ever been around? Stalin's Russia was never communist, which is where Americans gain a lot of contempt towards Communism. You know, the Cold War and such...

EXACTLY MY POINT!

A true communist governemnt has never, and can never be achieved

You cant say, "Well the USSR doesnt count cause it wasnt really a communist governemnt"

Because in fact, it was as close as possible to one

The Rawandan Genocide is not what I'm talking about. Your being wayyy to specific. Im talking the whole continent in general. And it is a piece of shit, always has been and it is not making any changes that lead me to beleive that is not going to be. And on that comment about us raping your Utopia continent, well as something said above. The blacks sold their own people to us, they fight intertribal wars, took slaves and sold them to us. So dont you dare make accusations like that without letting out both sides of the story. African civilization is the same as it was thousands of years ago with the exception of South Africa, which was built by British. As for the segregation, you act like it is only the Europeans who did this. How bout the segregation between tribes in Africa, the slavery, murder, canibalism, rape, aids, all that....Oh I guess you just overlooked all that huh....

I never said Africa was perfect, nobody is. Compare the amount of carnage and damage that Europe has inflicted on other people to what Africa has done. The sheer amount of it speaks for itself. Being an African American, you have NO IDEA how frustrating it is to know you can't go back and look at your history because somebody fucked it up. Everybody has done something, everybody has done terrible things, but don't act like Africa is a place that's some kind of zoo for animals, their progress was stopped by Europe, how the fuck do you think they're supposed to be? Happy? Are they supposed to be satisifed with being conquored? Are they supposed to just bow down and worship the might governments of The West? Hell no! By the way: slavery, murder, canibalism, rape, all that happened and continues to happen in Europe and has occured on a MUCH larger scale than in Africa, so don't you dare act like Africans are some kind of sub-human species that fucked themselves up.

I do agree with one thing swimmingpool said though. Celebrities and sport players make way to much money.
Also if the rich don't work then who runs the companies. The workers don't.
I also included CEOs in that. I'm not saying that CEOs don't deserve to get paid, or even that they don't deserve to get paid more than the workers. But the money that CEOs make these days is insane. Some of them earn thousands of times what their workers earn. Nobody's labour is worth that much.

if the rich don't work then who runs the companies. The workers don't.
Actually there are some companies that are run democratically by workers. But of course they are often not as ruthlessly successful as heirarchical companies, because there is more debate, whereas in a conventional company decisions are taken unilaterally. Similarly, democratic countries are often less successful than dictatorships for the same reasons. This is one of the reasons why China's economy races ahead of India.

Name me one communist country that didn't reach economic problems or where the people didn't starve or that became wealthy and where the people weren't oppressed.
Communism has never been successfully applied to an entire country. It is successful in many small communities, but I'm not sure that it's possible on a national scale.

nonsense. You can say that CEO's make too much money, but people who get to that level of business success usually put in plenty of 80 hour weeks to get there.
I agree, but that doesn't mean that their labour is worth thousands of times a 40-hour-a-week worker's wage.

When everything is giving to you what is there to make things better?
Not that I'm a hardcore communist, but that's a logical flaw. When everything is given to you why would you need to make things better?

Pure Captialism is not realistic because it is completely lacking in humanities.

Pure capitalism is as dead as pure communism.


People are not commodities , they are not going to shut up about it and let themselves be exploited.

I never said Africa was perfect, nobody is. Compare the amount of carnage and damage that Europe has inflicted on other people to what Africa has done. The sheer amount of it speaks for itself. Being an African American, you have NO IDEA how frustrating it is to know you can't go back and look at your history because somebody fucked it up. Everybody has done something, everybody has done terrible things, but don't act like Africa is a place that's some kind of zoo for animals, their progress was stopped by Europe, how the fuck do you think they're supposed to be? Happy? Are they supposed to be satisifed with being conquored? Are they supposed to just bow down and worship the might governments of The West? Hell no! By the way: slavery, murder, canibalism, rape, all that happened and continues to happen in Europe and has occured on a MUCH larger scale than in Africa, so don't you dare act like Africans are some kind of sub-human species that fucked themselves up.

This isnt fair, your being pro African just because your black. America is your country your an America. Africa is not your country and I cant stand how many Black people feel they need to side with Africa just because they're black.

Pure Captialism is not realistic because it is completely lacking in humanities.

Pure capitalism is as dead as pure communism.


People are not commodities , they are not going to shut up about it and let themselves be exploited.

that is more or less true, however no one ever argued otherwise

Capitalism is realistic. America is run by the concept of Capitalism...which is a good thing.


And its going to end. America is going to end, every captialistic country is going to end. Their economies are going to stop growing when theres no more cheap workers from third world countries that they can exploit. And give me a break, America is not run by pure capitalism. The social welfare state still exists.

Communism is for small minded individuals , with no goals in life looking for a free ride, get off your ass create some wealth you might just like it enough to keep doing it.

Communism is for small minded individuals , with no goals in life looking for a free ride, get off your ass create some wealth you might just like it enough to keep doing it.


You are just ignorant about what communism is. Theres a richness of humanity and solidarity and unity in communism is much more beautiful than captialism which objectify and degrade everyone.

Of course, captialism is NEEDED , I think but it doesnt describe how human works, NOT BY A LONG SHOT , thank god.

And its going to end. America is going to end, every captialistic country is going to end. Their economies are going to stop growing when theres no more cheap workers from third world countries that they can exploit. And give me a break, America is not run by pure capitalism. The social welfare state still exists.


*in the voice of a hippy smokign pot* YEAH! Its all like, going down hill MAN, and its going to be like, like, like Chaos MAN, and then we're going to make this perfect world MAn, and its going to be like......... cool

Never said america was pure capitalist it isnt.... as for the cheap labor, well its both unnessary of capitalism to survive, and i dont think its going to be running out anytime soon

This isnt fair, your being pro African just because your black. America is your country your an America. Africa is not your country and I cant stand how many Black people feel they need to side with Africa just because they're black.

That isn't the reason at all, stop being so ignorant. I just happen to be an African American, and because I am I was raised in a fashion that required me to learn about my past, I actually had to study Africa in depth, I know what I'm talking about. If this is the best argument you can come up with, I don't even know why I'm debating with you, because sorry to say but that's a pathetic tactic to employ against me. If there's something I can't stand, it's when white people such as yourself make false and extremely ignorant generalizations and act upon them, that's probably why Africa is messed up, because a bunch of stupid white people (that specific group of white people, not all in general) made generalizations about Africans and fucked them in the ass.

Capitalism is realistic. America is run by the concept of Capitalism...which is a good thing.

Did you go to a public (American def.) highschool?

The United States isn't 100% capitalist... nor should it be.

You are just ignorant about what communism is.

But very knowledgeable about capatalism ,and it works fine for me ,ill be waving when I overtake you in my Benz while your in your russian made Lada ,give me a break

Communism is just too damn corrupt to get anything accomplished. It always fails, due to greedy governments. The idea may sound attractive to countries with out much wealth, but in lands of oppurtunity it just dosent make sense. Why should peoples hard work and determination be taken away to help the lazy? If you have the chance to get to the top and do, why should you earn the same amount of money as some one at your mall's food court. Soviet Union- failed Commie China- declining. That is because these two countries are big enough and have enough smart people that have an oppurtunity to make a great living? Why smother the worthy with equality. When we were younger and something bad happened to us, our parents would say, sometimes lifes not always fair. Well to those who lack oppurtunity who do work hard and get no where, it isnt fair I know. But why let that punish those who work harder and accomplish alot? It just dosent make sense.

You are just ignorant about what communism is. Theres a richness of humanity and solidarity and unity in communism is much more beautiful than captialism which objectify and degrade everyone.

Of course, captialism is NEEDED , I think but it doesnt describe how human works, NOT BY A LONG SHOT , thank god.

Read a history book, Mankind is capable of truely great and wonderful things, but this is a MASK civilization provides us.... what you want to do is strip that mask away..... Im sry but your not going to like what your going to find

The simple problem with communism is this: IT DOESNT WORK. It may be a great idealistic theory, but the world, and human nature, being what it is, it just cant work in practice. In a capitalist country, if i cant be bothered to go to work today, I lose my job, and become poor. In communism, it doesnt matter how much work I do, because all the wealth the hard working people have generated gets "redistributed" and i get just as much. the problem is, peaople will always try to get away with the minimum work for maximum reward, in communism, that means nobody does any work!

Excuse me, but...

...No.
Now, Potaria, I certainly hope you are not an iPod owner!

That isn't the reason at all, stop being so ignorant. I just happen to be an African American, and because I am I was raised in a fashion that required me to learn about my past, I actually had to study Africa in depth, I know what I'm talking about. If this is the best argument you can come up with, I don't even know why I'm debating with you, because sorry to say but that's a pathetic tactic to employ against me. If there's something I can't stand, it's when white people such as yourself make false and extremely ignorant generalizations and act upon them, that's probably why Africa is messed up, because a bunch of stupid white people (that specific group of white people, not all in general) made generalizations about Africans and fucked them in the ass.

Ok you wanna talk about people fucking each other. How bout Blacks in America today that make up for most of our crime, take up most of our prisons, sell most of our drugs, make up for the most cop shooting and murders......how bout those guys fucking America in the ass?

Did you go to a public (American def.) highschool?

The United States isn't 100% capitalist... nor should it be.

I dont think he ever said it was (pure)... maybe i missed when he did

Did you go to a public (American def.) highschool?

The United States isn't 100% capitalist... nor should it be.
No I am a Senior in Private School. I am 16 years old, I skipped a grade. I didnt say it was Pure Capitalism I said it was run by the concent of Capitalism.

I would like to know were a communist gets his info from what books do you read and who teaches this stuff.

Now, Potaria, I certainly hope you are not an iPod owner!

Nope, and I never will be.

I'm through with this thread for now. I really need to take a dump and shower.

*I hope that made some of you feel uneasy.

Communism is just too damn corrupt to get anything accomplished. It always fails, due to greedy governments. The idea may sound attractive to countries with out much wealth, but in lands of oppurtunity it just dosent make sense. Why should peoples hard work and determination be taken away to help the lazy? If you have the chance to get to the top and do, why should you earn the same amount of money as some one at your mall's food court. Soviet Union- failed Commie China- declining. That is because these two countries are big enough and have enough smart people that have an oppurtunity to make a great living? Why smother the worthy with equality. When we were younger and something bad happened to us, our parents would say, sometimes lifes not always fair. Well to those who lack oppurtunity who do work hard and get no where, it isnt fair I know. But why let that punish those who work harder and accomplish alot? It just dosent make sense.

China isn't exactly in decline... its annual ecconomic growth is somewhere between double and three times that of the USA.

I would like to know were a communist gets his info from what books do you read and who teaches this stuff.


answer-

the communist manifisto and assorted idealistic trash

and

idiotic professors in college

China isn't exactly in decline... its annual ecconomic growth is somewhere between double and three times that of the USA.

Only because its adopting a capatalist system.

theres no "work" in a communist society. People only work in order to worship the money. Ini a communist society, people do things that will enhance their lives and they are not subjected to material wealth. Money makes the fool of everyone..

but oh in the name of human progress...sometimes we have to think whats we are exactly progressing towards.

Name me one communist country that didn't reach economic problems or where the people didn't starve or that became wealthy and where the people weren't oppressed.

That's the thing. Appart from Spain's revolutionaries in the '30s(who were inherantly poor) and Paris in 1871 (under siege, i believe), there hasn't been a record of any communist-style states since the stone age. Red China, no. Cuba, niet. North Korea, ya right. Soviet Union, niesky. All of them are (or were) Dictatorships under the name "Communist Party", set up after their respective revolutions. So actually, we can't give you an example, because there's nothing to examine.

For a better explination of Communism, go to www.communism.org. It's a pro-communist, anti-imperialist web site, which also explains what communism and socialism are (scientific terms) compared to the "bullshit" definition (common misconceptions). It's interesting. All you guys, communist or not, should check it out.

Nope, and I never will be.

I'm through with this thread for now. I really need to take a dump and shower.

*I hope that made some of you feel uneasy.


actually no..... you really need to get in touch with contemporary culture if you think saying that is going to bother anyone

Ok you wanna talk about people fucking each other. How bout Blacks in America today that make up for most of our crime, take up most of our prisons, sell most of our drugs, make up for the most cop shooting and murders......how bout those guys fucking America in the ass?

... due to their lack of economic and educational opportunities...

theres no "work" in a communist society. People only work in order to worship the money. Ini a communist society, people do things that will enhance their lives and they are not subjected to material wealth. Money makes the fool of everyone..

but oh in the name of human progress...sometimes we have to think whats we are exactly progressing towards.


Explain enhance life give me examples

Ok you wanna talk about people fucking each other. How bout Blacks in America today that make up for most of our crime, take up most of our prisons, sell most of our drugs, make up for the most cop shooting and murders......how bout those guys fucking America in the ass?

How do you think it got that bad? Sheesh use your brain, because of the extremely harsh past that African Americans have been put through in America, by being constantly put down and deemed inferior they were kept "in their place", the year is 2005 and things are starting to look better, but the reason why they make up for most of the crime is when you're poor, guess what? You can't afford food, and when you're hungry, guess what? You're going to steal for food. If you want a job but the employer is racist and doesn't want African Americans working for them, guess what? They can't get the job to provide food for themselves and their family. When your family is poor and always has been poor, guess what? You can't go to college to get an education and most likely have to quit school to get involved in illegal ways to aquire money.

When you are in a position where poverty is a constant reminder of how bad your life is, always present and making you feel like you'll never be something in life, being treated like shit by people who run the country, seeing everybody else with all these nice things that you can't have, life starts to fuck with your head and African Americans do what any normal person would do in their position, and I can speak for most because I was born into proverty and I'm one of the few who will make something of myself because life gave me a break and let me off.

Name me one communist country that didn't reach economic problems or where the people didn't starve or that became wealthy and where the people weren't oppressed.

Name me one communist country that actually followed the ideals of communism to the letter.

But someone explain something to me. If there is no "work" in this society, how do we get the things done that we need to live and be comfortable?

In a capitalist country, if i cant be bothered to go to work today, I lose my job, and become poor.

In communism, it doesnt matter how much work I do, because all the wealth the hard working people have generated gets "redistributed" and i get just as much.

the problem is, peaople will always try to get away with the minimum work for maximum reward, in communism, that means nobody does any work!
I agree that most people try to get maximum reward for minimum work, but if no-one does any work, as you think would happen in a communist society, then no-one gets any reward. Communism doesn't lack incentive. The difference vs Capitalism is the nature of the of the incentive: collective vs individual.

How do you think it got that bad? Sheesh use your brain, because of the extremely harsh past that African Americans have been put through in America, by being constantly put down and deemed inferior they were kept "in their place", the year is 2005 and things are starting to look better, but the reason why they make up for most of the crime is when you're poor, guess what? You can't afford food, and when you're hungry, guess what? You're going to steal for food. If you want a job but the employer is racist and doesn't want African Americans working for them, guess what? They can't get the job to provide food for themselves and their family. When your family is poor and always has been poor, guess what? You can't go to college to get an education and most likely have to quit school to get involved in illegal ways to aquire money.

When you are in a position where poverty is a constant reminder of how bad your life is, always present and making you feel like you'll never be something in life, being treated like shit by people who run the country, seeing everybody else with all these nice things that you can't have, life starts to fuck with your head and African Americans do what any normal person would do in their position, and I can speak for most because I was born into proverty and I'm one of the few who will make something of myself because life gave me a break and let me off.


Thats bullshit the Greeks were under 400 years of occupation from the turks we dont blame them for our problems we look forward not backwards.

I agree that most people try to get maximum reward for minimum work, but if no-one does any work, as you think would happen in a communist society, then no-one gets any reward. Communism doesn't lack incentive. The difference vs Capitalism is the nature of the of the incentive: collective vs individual.

and by human nature we will always shoot for individual

True. Most people work for their high paying jobs.

It's hard to work for a high paying job if you don't start out with the resources to get the education needed in the first place. In a purely capitalistic system, only those who start out wealthy have any hope of wealth. I know many more impoverished people working harder than any of the higher paid professionals. Capitalism is an exploitive system based on opportunity with the accessibility of money. If you aren't born into it, you won't get it.

Sure, there are exceptions. But few and far between.

Thats bullshit the Greeks were under 400 years of occupation from the turks we dont blame them for our problems we look forward not backwards.

Sorry to tell you my friend, but I don't know about you or where you come from, but it's the truth over here.

I agree that most people try to get maximum reward for minimum work, but if no-one does any work, as you think would happen in a communist society, then no-one gets any reward. Communism doesn't lack incentive. The difference vs Capitalism is the nature of the of the incentive: collective vs individual.
There is the fault. People don't work for the collective. They work for themselves. I don't see why you would think that the vast majority of people are out to make things better for the collective. Some will, and they will have to carry the others who don't care about any of that stuff.

... due to their lack of economic and educational opportunities...

That is the most Liberal bullshit ever.

That's bull Pure Metal. If you want to start a company you need money that is true. But you can save or take out a lone at a place called a bank. And people who start their own businesses are put on a tight budget for awile.

They won't give you a loan if you don't have most of the capital already.

Communism does work - but only on a small scale and when it is voluntary.

Some people are inherantly greedy, selfish and care nothing for helping humanity or the community as a whole. You can't have these people in a communist society without it breaking down - they can't seem to grasp the concept of altruism and doing things for the greater good, and will not work without some personal incentive.

However, when you get a bunch of likeminded people who genuinely want to live in a communist society, it will work perfectly. The only problem is that one of the next generation may have the greed defect.

Explain enhance life give me examples

doing anything that will ehance personal growth, as opposed to doing things based on the wage incentives.


and the master - slave relationship is simply slightly changed to the "employer - employee" relationship.

The employees have a right to not work for an employer, but he or she doesnt have much choice when they live on a paycheck via paycheck basis.

Communism does work - but only on a small scale and when it is voluntary.

Some people are inherantly greedy, selfish and care nothing for helping humanity or the community as a whole. You can't have these people in a communist society without it breaking down - they can't seem to grasp the concept of altruism and doing things for the greater good.

However, when you get a bunch of likeminded people who genuinely want to live in a communist society, it will work perfectly. The only problem is that one of the next generation may have the greed defect.


"will" have the defect

and yes, what you said is true.....the same basic idea works for nudist colonies

It's hard to work for a high paying job if you don't start out with the resources to get the education needed in the first place. In a purely capitalistic system, only those who start out wealthy have any hope of wealth. I know many more impoverished people working harder than any of the higher paid professionals. Capitalism is an exploitive system based on opportunity with the accessibility of money. If you aren't born into it, you won't get it.

Sure, there are exceptions. But few and far between.


With your state of mind you have no hope ,I started investing on a shoestring and got excellent results ,based on my hard work and study of the game, do yourself a favour and buy a get rich book , its a start, contact me in 2 weeks for further instructions.

But someone explain something to me. If there is no "work" in this society, how do we get the things done that we need to live and be comfortable?
Hold on, who, other than those trying to discredit communism, is saying that there would be no work in such society? Work is an inescapable fact of life regardless of what economic system you live under.

Also, The Atlantian islands stop using this thread as a vehicle for your racist ranting.

Communism does work - but only on a small scale and when it is voluntary.

Some people are inherantly greedy, selfish and care nothing for helping humanity or the community as a whole. You can't have these people in a communist society without it breaking down - they can't seem to grasp the concept of altruism and doing things for the greater good.

However, when you get a bunch of likeminded people who genuinely want to live in a communist society, it will work perfectly. The only problem is that one of the next generation may have the greed defect.

You also have to make sure that only these idealistic people are in your community, which means expelling anyone who doesn't meet your ideological standards. The only communes in history that have managed to sustain themselves for more than a few years were religious in nature and who deliberately broke down family organizations.

Communism does work - but only on a small scale and when it is voluntary.

Some people are inherantly greedy, selfish and care nothing for helping humanity or the community as a whole. You can't have these people in a communist society without it breaking down - they can't seem to grasp the concept of altruism and doing things for the greater good, and will not work without some personal incentive.

However, when you get a bunch of likeminded people who genuinely want to live in a communist society, it will work perfectly. The only problem is that one of the next generation may have the greed defect.


it wont work completely because other captialistic countries might invade it or put economic barriers on said nation so that it wont be allowed to survive..

like how U.S is treating Cuba.

Alright, I have to go eat dinner then go to practice. I will leave you pinko commies, liberal pussies, and Africa obsessed anti European people to your own lives. To the real people on this thread. The pro Capitalist, anti socialist, and the people who know that Africa is a piece of shit, Keep fighting and I will see you guys later.

doing anything that will ehance personal growth, as opposed to doing things based on the wage incentives.


and the master - slave relationship is simply slightly changed to the "employer - employee" relationship.

The employees have a right to not work for an employer, but he or she doesnt have much choice when they live on a paycheck via paycheck basis.

Personal growth again not saying much give me meaning , were do we start as humans and were are we headed, what are my goals in life when I wake up every morning.

The employee has many choices but as humans we like to take the route of least resistance , thats what communism is all about.

It's hard to work for a high paying job if you don't start out with the resources to get the education needed in the first place. In a purely capitalistic system, only those who start out wealthy have any hope of wealth. I know many more impoverished people working harder than any of the higher paid professionals. Capitalism is an exploitive system based on opportunity with the accessibility of money. If you aren't born into it, you won't get it.

Sure, there are exceptions. But few and far between.


oh poor baby..... then I guess you should just give up then

YOU DONT HAVE TO BE LUCKY OR SMART TO SUCCEED IN A CAPITALIST NATION

you just have to work harder..... lets say your a near brainless moron, with no rich relatives.... well then go to a trade school become a plumber etc.....

it will be hard work but no one is beyond hope if they are willing to work hard

it wont work completely because other captialistic countries might invade it or put economic barriers on said nation so that it wont be allowed to survive..

like how U.S is treating Cuba.

'Cause Castro is just a big snuggly wuggly isnt he?

We produce more than enough food to feed the world, but much of it is wasted as a result of poor distribution. As a result, people starve.

this is put far too passively. the reason there is poor distribution is because the rich elite that owns 80%+ of fucking everything can make more money by starving 30,000 people to death per day. it's just not profitable to stop poor people from dying of starvation, so the rich elite makes the active choice to not build efficient systems of food distribution and to not send food to those people.

as a friend of mine recently put it:

"In capitalism, we have widespread hunger not because we cannot produce enough food, and not because of unequal distribution; we ship shoes and televisions across the Pacific Ocean, if we really want something to get somewhere, it gets there. The problem is that the people who go hungry do not have enough money to make feeding them profitable, and so they die because it is cheaper to let them perish than to save their lives. If this does not convince you of the need to end a profit driven market based production system, nothing will."

Alright, I have to go eat dinner then go to practice. I will leave you pinko commies, liberal pussies, and Africa obsessed anti European people to your own lives. To the real people on this thread. The pro Capitalist, anti socialist, and the people who know that Africa is a piece of shit, Keep fighting and I will see you guys later.

Enjoy your dinner you violence loving, chaos inflicting, ignorance embracing, Republican dumbass, White Supremist, self-centered, fact avoiding person. Go and run away because I know that you know you are wrong. Have a nice day :D

It's hard to work for a high paying job if you don't start out with the resources to get the education needed in the first place. In a purely capitalistic system, only those who start out wealthy have any hope of wealth. I know many more impoverished people working harder than any of the higher paid professionals. Capitalism is an exploitive system based on opportunity with the accessibility of money. If you aren't born into it, you won't get it.

Sure, there are exceptions. But few and far between.
Well, this is bullshit. I do own a business, and I was raised by my Grandmother in a very not so rich economic situation. I am neither dirt poor nor fabulously wealthy. I have friends who own their own businesses, and pulled themselves up by their own bootstrings. DOn't tell me that success only occurs "few and far between". That's just ignorant.
I'm sure you have something interesting to say, but this logic flies in the face of reason (and experience). There's more to America than the dirt poor and filthy rich, almost everyone is somewhere inbetween, and few started out as "wealthy". I have to ask, how old are you and do you (or have you ever) had a job?

Communism does work - but only on a small scale and when it is voluntary.

Some people are inherantly greedy, selfish and care nothing for helping humanity or the community as a whole. You can't have these people in a communist society without it breaking down - they can't seem to grasp the concept of altruism and doing things for the greater good, and will not work without some personal incentive.

However, when you get a bunch of likeminded people who genuinely want to live in a communist society, it will work perfectly. The only problem is that one of the next generation may have the greed defect.
Exactly, and thanks for injecting a little reason into an otherwise full-of-it thread. I don't doubt that communism could work on a small scale under voluntary conditions. So few of the capitalists can admit that here.

I also belive you're right about the large-scale problems associated with communism. You won't hear many of them admit to that either.

In other words, this conversation is fruitless, for the most part. :rolleyes:

Are all the communists in this game at the bottom of the social ladder, and just find it impossible to climb it. Or can't bring themselves to climb it. All communism realy is when you get down to it is taking away from the wealthy who HAVE puthard work into building their companies, and giving it all to the poor. So it is nothing but stealing. That is why nobody can increase their standard of living. So you work all your life and in the end get no rewards. Plus it takes away all your rights for what? I'll tell you what so the wealthy and middle classes who work hard for their money are forced to give it all up and live life as a poor person regardless of all their hard work. That is why I think it appeals to the poor because it forces their bosses to live like them.
So for all the communists out there I ask you what the hell kind of government is this?

As for me I say LONG LIVE CAPITALISM.

Why the hell would we want to take away your pitiful collection of goods and moneys?

i think the reason we are not having a revolution is because of the existence of the middle class. But at the end of the day, theres still alot of people who are starving and living in poverty or being undermployed.

Theres some people who make it, but its ignorant to blame all poor people that they are poor because they are lazy or that they are idiots.

A full fledge captialistic system is not fair and its never going to be fair so thats why i am opposed to it.

Bush will never become president in a fair society.

Sorry to tell you my friend, but I don't know about you or where you come from, but it's the truth over here.

I live in the US and have lived in greece , the problem with a percentage of african americans is that there too busy feeling sorry for themselves, then they like to blame the white man for all there problems , you also forget to distinguish between whites , why would you its easier that way.

Here's a little history lesson when the byzantium empire fell Greece was conquered by the turks and were occupied for 400 years thats a lot longer than the 200 years your complaining about , we got our independence in 1821
and have managed to create a society we can be proud regardless of past hardships , stop complaining and youll be better off.

Look at the babies in a hospital maternity unit. They are all born equal. But then its time to go home. One child is driven home in a Mercedes Benz by his middle class stockbroker parents. The baby in the next cot goes home on the bus with his unemployed parents, to a sink estate on the outside of town.
It is money that makes the difference to these babies. Only by stealing the wealth off poor people can rich people exist in the first place. If you think capitalism is fair, or the only answer then you haven't thought hard enough.

Well, this is bullshit. I do own a business, and I was raised by my Grandmother in a very not so rich economic situation. I am neither dirt poor nor fabulously wealthy. I have friends who own their own businesses, and pulled themselves up by their own bootstrings. DOn't tell me that success only occurs "few and far between". That's just ignorant.
I'm sure you have something interesting to say, but this logic flies in the face of reason (and experience). There's more to America than the dirt poor and filthy rich, almost everyone is somewhere inbetween, and few started out as "wealthy". I have to ask, how old are you and do you (or have you ever) had a job?


Exactly, and thanks for injecting a little reason into an otherwise full-of-it thread. I don't doubt that communism could work on a small scale under voluntary conditions. So few of the capitalists can admit that here.

I also belive you're right about the large-scale problems associated with communism. You won't hear many of them admit to that either.

In other words, this conversation is fruitless, for the most part. :rolleyes:

I admit it, and im capitalist all the way

perfect example.....

Im in crew (rowing) after we row, we carry the boat back to the boathouse.... damn thing weighs several hundred lbs

Anyways this is basically communist.... everyone working to a collective goal (putting the boat away) but what happens? Half of the people jsut barly hold the boat, not lifting at all, minimal work..... leave the rest (i.e. me) to do all the work

Look at the babies in a hospital maternity unit. They are all born equal. But then its time to go home. One child is driven home in a Mercedes Benz by his middle class stockbroker parents. The baby in the next cot goes home on the bus with his unemployed parents, to a sink estate on the outside of town.
It is money that makes the difference to these babies. Only by stealing the wealth off poor people can rich people exist in the first place. If you think capitalism is fair, or the only answer then you haven't thought hard enough.
This bit about "stealing wealth" sounds like received wisdom to me. Do you care to explain to me how this occurs?

Look at the babies in a hospital maternity unit. They are all born equal. But then its time to go home. One child is driven home in a Mercedes Benz by his middle class stockbroker parents. The baby in the next cot goes home on the bus with his unemployed parents, to a sink estate on the outside of town.
It is money that makes the difference to these babies. Only by stealing the wealth off poor people can rich people exist in the first place. If you think capitalism is fair, or the only answer then you haven't thought hard enough.


I cant agree more. Inheritance and the economic background of your family is very important and it will probably play a factor in your future.

Thats why I really admire countries like Sweden or Germany, I think they found a good balance.

I live in the US and have lived in greece , the problem with a percentage of african americans is that there too busy feeling sorry for themselves, then they like to blame the white man for all there problems , you also forget to distinguish between whites , why would you its easier that way.

Here's a little history lesson when the byzantium empire fell Greece was conquered by the turks and were occupied for 400 years thats a lot longer than the 200 years your complaining about , we got our independence in 1821
and have managed to create a society we can be proud regardless of past hardships , stop complaining and youll be better off.

I never complain, it's just when people act like caucasians are nothing but angelic do-gooders that have never done anything wrong it gets me fired up. Also segragation and all that crap didn't end until the 60's-70's, and that's not a long time ago AT ALL! So give us some time to recover, sheesh, at least we're making huge improvements in such a short amount of time. Right now African Americans are experiencing freedom like never before in America, and that's why I love this country, I may not agree with some of the political figures in power, but it's not about that, it's about the people, the soul of this country that I love.

i think the reason we are not having a revolution is because of the existence of the middle class. But at the end of the day, theres still alot of people who are starving and living in poverty or being undermployed.

Theres some people who make it, but its ignorant to blame all poor people that they are poor because they are lazy or that they are idiots.

A full fledge captialistic system is not fair and its never going to be fair so thats why i am opposed to it.

Bush will never become president in a fair society.

Life isnt fair, Communism will never work, time to face facts

"If we do not remember history we are doomed to repeat it"

Think of this ^ next time you get a communist thought.... then think of the USSR, china, cuba, eastern europe, east germany etc

A lot of this debate focuses on human nature. If you believe that humans are by nature selfless, then you have a strong case for supporting communism. If, however, you live in the real world, you'll know that we humans tend to look out for Number One. That's not to say that we don't have philanthropic bents; we evidently do - I'm just saying that as individuals we're not content to sacrifice all our needs for the greater good, as communism would have us do. Nor should we be made to; left free to act in our own interests (and thus benefiting from free healthcare, education and so forth, such that no one becomes overburdened by costs he cannot foresee), society will grow to benefit everyone.

Capitalism is remarkable in that, while in some cases widening the gap between rich and poor (something which I actually attribute to barriers to free trade), has actually increased the welfare of everyone. It's a nonzero-sum game - I can't see why people are complaining.

In short, we must not deny our greed. Sometimes we want something so much we're prepared to give up equally as valuable. Someone else will want what we give up. Choice stems naturally from freedom, and we should embrace it.

This bit about "stealing wealth" sounds like received wisdom to me. Do you care to explain to me how this occurs?
bumped because I want to hear the answer to this.

Life is never fair, but you can make the system as fair as it is possible.

stealing wealth through low wages, duh.

Hell, Im Irish-American (though I would never call myself that I AM AMERICAN)

we were opressed by the english for 700 years.... some (including many irish would argue it contiues to today) However I, and my family hold no grude on the english

Instead we went out and WORKED TO MAKE OUR OWN DAMN LIVES BETTER, as opposed to continuing to blame a past oppressor

I'm not trying to make anybody pissed off here but society would work a lot better if people just let the government take care of all major decisions. Most people are only interested in themselves and their own gain. The working class cares nothing of society as a whole. Thats why the government should be taken care of by men who are selected by a council and not elected by the people. This way, politicians could worry about society as a whole and not what the paticular voter wants. Think Plato's 'Republic' in action.

Have you heard about Chile in 1970?

Salvador Allende rises to power by popular election (but in a congressal resolution, because their vote % was to low) During their three loooong years of revolucionary government, stopped by military forces, invested by him as constitution protectors, in the congress, 1970,

He only do chilean people poorer than earlier, in every social class, except, the poorest ones, that received rich properties doing not job at absoluty.

Rich class, Middle class (almost entirelly), and a part of low class threw chicken food to the feet of soldiers, saying chikens to them, because they have not doing anything to stop the red nightmare.

After this, and with almost all chileans supporting it, during september the 11th, a military strike to government palace, leaded by captain general and chief commander of army; Augusto Pinochet Ugarte, take the power, after the suicide of the Allende.

Chile even had not bread for two more days, and, the economic bad times only end in one or two years of capitalist government.

Today, almost 90% of chilean population have enough cash to have a basic life, and exists a richer sector of population who have many benefits from their economic power.

If Allende were not overthrown by the civic-militar pronouncment, Chile will be today a poorer country that Bolivia or many african countries; of course, all people would be equally poorer, but is this enough?

Ah, and equality is unable because two peoples are different, and one will be smarter than the other, and the smarter will do a better use of his few resources.

Moreover, if in Communism people does not work, what eats them?
I am not a neoliberal system fan, but communism is much worst that it.

This bit about "stealing wealth" sounds like received wisdom to me. Do you care to explain to me how this occurs?

by asserting a right to take in a percentage of the wealth created by others in exchange for being so gracious as to let those others have access to capital - which itself is the product of other people's stolen labor. private property in the means of production is institutionalized robbery.

The only problem I have with equality and fairness is when my business and hard earned money is taken from me and given to the damn government and people I don't know.
I'm not a communist, but I feel like commenting anyway.

I'll never have children. Plenty of reasons I can say it with certainty. But that doesn't mean I mind paying taxes so people's kids can get an education. In fact, I'd much rather pay more taxes so all education, regardless of level, is free. To me, it's not only a basic right. It's one of the most important things a society can do to keep ahead of the competition.

I don't work a lot. Untill now, I've never had problems finding work. I enjoy the kind of work I can do. It's why I can do it. I don't enjoy working all year, because I like to do other things as well. Like travelling for example, or taking the entire summer off just to hang out and drink beer.
I don't rely on any kind of wellfare. I just work hard so I play. And I'm pretty damn proud of that.
Still, one of the things that always happen when I'm taking time off, is that I ALWAYS get involved in some project that requires my skills. So usually, I spend half a summer working for free. The only thing I get in return is the joy of seeing something working, something that makes others happy and (hopefully) makes a difference in the world.

I'm dirt poor, but it's a conscious choice. I - barring freak accidents - will be able to rely on my self and the work I've done, throughout my life. Pension plans are for wankers. I make sure I don't have to rely on such things, because they're beyond my control, and managed by people who have no interest in my future.

I wouldn't dream of sponsoring cherities involving humans. I support Amnisty because they FORCE newsmedia to focus on oppression instead of Brad Pitt's latest honey. I support WWF because they work to limit corporate abuse of natural resources. With my limited funds, I'd have to change my life to make any impact on humanitarian shite, and really: We're not a threatned species.

I'm in favour of a participatory economy. I fail to see the point in a system designed to move wealth from the working class to the ruling class. The only way I can even partially imagine capitalism working for the majority, is to massively redistribute the wealth through government. Something like paying each citizen a minimum wage and let business pay tiney wages on top of that amount. But I hardly think that's a good solution. It's unfair and it ruins the positive aspects of capitalism.... And in no way does it impact the unsustainable way we use our resources.

But how the fuck is it fair that a business leader makes anywhere from 10 times to 5000 times what an average worker in the same business does?

How is a flat tax rate fair? I mean, if I have 10$ and has to pay 5 in taxes, then how is it fair that a corporate sod has 1 million $ and has to pay ½ a mill. The guy doesn't hurt from such a tax rate like I do. He'll be able to get things in a year that I won't be able to get in my life.

How is that fair? And how the hell can it be fair that his business can use my tax money to export his goods? Either the both of us get similar paychecks, share the responsibility and thus both pitch in to dump prices, or he shouldn't get shite and be forced to spend his own pay.

Arg... There's a billion things wrong with how capitalism works. Sure, communism isn't a viable alternative as far as I'm concerned, but honestly, I think I'd prefer it to our current shit.

stealing wealth through low wages, duh.
How is that stealing? If I pay someone a wage, then I am GIVING them something. We are trading their work for my money.

Hell, Im Irish-American (though I would never call myself that I AM AMERICAN)

we were opressed by the english for 700 years.... some (including many irish would argue it contiues to today) However I, and my family hold no grude on the english

Instead we went out and WORKED TO MAKE OUR OWN DAMN LIVES BETTER, as opposed to continuing to blame a past oppressor

Question: Have you ever experienced poverty? Have you ever tasted desperate? If not I don't see how anyone could debate and have a strong opinion about this subject.

Look at the babies in a hospital maternity unit. They are all born equal. But then its time to go home. One child is driven home in a Mercedes Benz by his middle class stockbroker parents. The baby in the next cot goes home on the bus with his unemployed parents, to a sink estate on the outside of town.
It is money that makes the difference to these babies. Only by stealing the wealth off poor people can rich people exist in the first place. If you think capitalism is fair, or the only answer then you haven't thought hard enough.
Another crock of steaming shit. Neither system is fair. Don't tell me that evolution is true and natural, and in the same breath tell me that "life should be fair". Life isn't fair. Fair isn't natural.

Capitalism isn't ultimately fair. Communism isn't ultimately fair.

It isn't fair that some should be left on the bottom rung of the ladder in capitalism.
It isn't fair that hard work, talent, genius and bravado should earn an individual mere status quo rations under communism.

Please, it's childish to even use the word fair. Your mother told you "life isn't fair" a thousand times, and she was right. Argue your points from any perspective, but don't pull out the "It's not faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiir!!!!" card.
:rolleyes:

by asserting a right to take in a percentage of the wealth created by others in exchange for being so gracious as to let those others have access to capital - which itself is the product of other people's stolen labor. private property in the means of production is institutionalized robbery.
That's a circular argument and assumes its premise. You'll have to do better than that.

I never complain, it's just when people act like caucasians are nothing but angelic do-gooders that have never done anything wrong it gets me fired up. Also segragation and all that crap didn't end until the 60's-70's, and that's not a long time ago AT ALL! So give us some time to recover, sheesh, at least we're making huge improvements in such a short amount of time. Right now African Americans are experiencing freedom like never before in America, and that's why I love this country, I may not agree with some of the political figures in power, but it's not about that, it's about the people, the soul of this country that I love.


I never said caucasians were angels , just learn to tell the difference , between those that did your people harm and those that have not.

Im not knocking you i know that blacks had a tough time , they werent even allowed to die for there country in WW2 , which I will never understand , all im saying is catch your breath and move on.

IMO most of capitalism has nothing to do with hard work or the American Dream. Venture capitalism and corporatism are opportunistic by definition, ie it's all about manipulating other people into doing your work for you while reaping the profits of their efforts. And often success has more to do with how clever or lucky you are than how many mindless hours you spent slaving away.

Now one can argue that intelligence or luck are all the justification the upper class needs, but don't argue that their opulence has to do with how hard they work because that's obviously not the case. Tons of poor people work their asses off for nothing while rich CEOs get pay raises for eating caviar. The middle class is the only class that has a direct correlation between hard work and due rewards, but it's currently getting squeezed out of existence as wealth becomes more stratified.

If effort really correlated with success then people who worked two fulltime jobs would be at the pinnacle of society.

doll dagga buzz buzz ziggety zag

I don't feel I need to say anything because everyone here is already set in their ways so once again I say to you................................................
doll dagga buzz buzz ziggety zag

I never said caucasians were angels , just learn to tell the difference , between those that did your people harm and those that have not.

Im not knocking you i know that blacks had a tough time , they werent even allowed to die for there country in WW2 , which I will never understand , all im saying is catch your breath and move on.

I can't speak for any other black people, but I have definately moved on. My biological father is caucasian, but he left me and mother so she had to raise me. Since then I've had a bitter attitude towards white people, but as I entered adolescence I became aware of how stupid racism is.

Communism was never given a fair chance to succeed because the western powers (capitalist countries) moved in to crush it becuase the ideology threatens the privaledged lifestyle of those in power, also the only reason capitalism survives better than communism is because it is easier to maintain.
Surely you can not be so obtuse as to not see the benefits of a more equalitarian society, or do you prefer a system whcih allows the top one percent to have vastly more money than they even know what to do with, whilst people around them struggle for subsistance? :sniper:

IMO most of capitalism has nothing to do with hard work or the American Dream. Venture capitalism and corporatism are opportunistic by definition, ie it's all about manipulating other people into doing your work for you while reaping the profits of their efforts. And often success has more to do with how clever or lucky you are than how many mindless hours you spent slaving away.

Now one can argue that intelligence or luck are all the justification the upper class needs, but don't argue that their opulence has to do with how hard they work because that's obviously not the case. Tons of poor people work their asses off for nothing while rich CEOs get pay raises for eating caviar. The middle class is the only class that has a direct correlation between hard work and due rewards, but it's currently getting squeezed out of existence as wealth becomes more stratified.

If effort really correlated with success then people who worked two fulltime jobs would be at the pinnacle of society.

Your making the assumption that hard work only means wailing a sledgehammer for 12 hours a day , which by the way any moron can do , as opposed to running the day to day operations of a fortune 500 company. I would like to see who can do whose job , being clever today is being seen as a negative thing , I really do fear the future then get an education work hard and stop bitchin.

IMO most of capitalism has nothing to do with hard work or the American Dream. Venture capitalism and corporatism are opportunistic by definition, ie it's all about manipulating other people into doing your work for you while reaping the profits of their efforts. And often success has more to do with how clever or lucky you are than how many mindless hours you spent slaving away.

Now one can argue that intelligence or luck are all the justification the upper class needs, but don't argue that their opulence has to do with how hard they work because that's obviously not the case. Tons of poor people work their asses off for nothing while rich CEOs get pay raises for eating caviar. The middle class is the only class that has a direct correlation between hard work and due rewards, but it's currently getting squeezed out of existence as wealth becomes more stratified.

If effort really correlated with success then people who worked two fulltime jobs would be at the pinnacle of society.

I know some venture capitalists, and they work very hard. CEO's get to their positions with a lot of hard work as well. I'm not saying that nobody works as hard as they do, or that everyone who works that hard will gain the kind of money that they have. That is clearly not the case. But hard work, along with ability, is absolutely required to be successful in either position.

How is that stealing? If I pay someone a wage, then I am GIVING them something. We are trading their work for my money.


giving them low wages is no good and who decide how much one's work should worth? the employers.

Another crock of steaming shit. Neither system is fair. Don't tell me that evolution is true and natural, and in the same breath tell me that "life should be fair". Life isn't fair. Fair isn't natural.

Capitalism isn't ultimately fair. Communism isn't ultimately fair.

It isn't fair that some should be left on the bottom rung of the ladder in capitalism.
It isn't fair that hard work, talent, genius and bravado should earn an individual mere status quo rations under communism.

Please, it's childish to even use the word fair. Your mother told you "life isn't fair" a thousand times, and she was right. Argue your points from any perspective, but don't pull out the "It's not faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiir!!!!" card.
:rolleyes:
I completly agree. Life is not fair and no government system will make it fair. What is important is to make the whole of society as best as possible. That's why 'Republic' is the best design for any government. Combining communism and capitalism: people choose what they wish to do while the government makes all major decisions without voter interference. Let Philosophers rule who practice Rationalism as a religion.

There's more to America than the dirt poor and filthy rich, almost everyone is somewhere inbetween, and few started out as "wealthy".

the problem with the "almost everybody is inbetween" idea, is what happens when you look at the actual distribution of wealth. of course most people fall in between the poorest person in america and the richest - that's trivial. but when we compare how much of the total wealth they own, pretty much everybody is hanging out down on the low end, though a bit above the poorest guy in the country.

the richest 1% of americans own ~40% of the total wealth
the richest 5% own ~65% of the total
the richest 20% own ~ 85% of the total.
which leaves the bottom 80% of the population with just 15% of the total wealth available, and most of that is concentrated among the richest end of of the 80%.
the bottom 40% of us have less than 0.5% of the scraps to fight bitterly over.

and this distribution is the absolutely natural outcome of the capitalist system. it is utterly impossible under capitalism for most of us to really get anywhere. and even if some of us do, it must be at the expense of others who fall behind.

IMO most of capitalism has nothing to do with hard work or the American Dream. Venture capitalism and corporatism are opportunistic by definition, ie it's all about manipulating other people into doing your work for you while reaping the profits of their efforts. And often success has more to do with how clever or lucky you are than how many mindless hours you spent slaving away.

Now one can argue that intelligence or luck are all the justification the upper class needs, but don't argue that their opulence has to do with how hard they work because that's obviously not the case. Tons of poor people work their asses off for nothing while rich CEOs get pay raises for eating caviar. The middle class is the only class that has a direct correlation between hard work and due rewards, but it's currently getting squeezed out of existence as wealth becomes more stratified.

If effort really correlated with success then people who worked two fulltime jobs would be at the pinnacle of society.

GOOD JOB!

Communism was never given a fair chance to succeed because the western powers (capitalist countries) moved in to crush it becuase the ideology threatens the privaledged lifestyle of those in power, also the only reason capitalism survives better than communism is because it is easier to maintain.
Surely you can not be so obtuse as to not see the benefits of a more equalitarian society, or do you prefer a system whcih allows the top one percent to have vastly more money than they even know what to do with, whilst people around them struggle for subsistance? :sniper:
I'll take the system that allowed me to drop out of college, start a business with almost no money, sit on my ass at home drinking beer or smoking pot and designing web sites for a very comfortable living...

But thanks for asking! :p

Oh, wait, I must be one of those "wealthy" people in the top 1%... who knew?
:p :p :p

I'll take the system that allowed me to drop out of college, start a business with almost no money, sit on my ass at home drinking beer or smoking pot and designing web sites for a very comfortable living...

But thanks for asking! :p

Oh, wait, I must be one of those "wealthy" people in the top 1%... who knew?
:p :p :p

That was fuckin beutifull (sipping from my $400 whiskey ) cheers to all you communist

Originally all the world's land was spread out equally among the population.

What you consider to be theft is really the reversal of many years of theft.

No, it's theft. Pure and simple. You see, what I consider to be theft, and what civilization considers theft, IS theft. The law defines theft. Society defines theft. My land is my land is my land.

The fact that perhaps someone else's ancestors lived on the land a few thousand years ago is totally irrelevant to this fact. They lived on the land, but as you and others point out, they didn't own it. Not by their definitions, not by ours today. When they lived on the land, the land itself was drastically different. For example, it didn't have my house on it, or me living on it, or me paying for it with my time and energy. You want to take it away without my consent? THAT is theft. No matter what the reason.

"Reversal of theft" is also just another term for stealing from thieves. Except I didn't take any land away from nomadic ancestors, did I? As I recall I wasn't even there. Am I to pay now, for crimes committed by people who may or may not have any relation to me, against people who also may or may not have had any relation to me?

Was it even a crime, since they had no concept of land ownership? If they did not have a concept of owning the land, how can me living on it be theft?

time to trot out my favourite quote again:

“The first man who, having enclosed a piece of ground, bethought himself of saying this is mine, and found people simple enough to believe him, was the real founder of civil society. From how many crimes, wars, and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not any one have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows: beware of listening to this impostor; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody”
- Jean-Jacques Rousseau

The first man who "enclosed a piece of ground" and declared that it was his was a farmer. Because it wasn't just bare ground after it was his, he created life itself there, seeding wheat and feeding him and his family in a way totally impossible for nomadic lifestyle. This bit of land ownership and agriculture revolution lead to the rise of civilization as we know it. The only way back is to duplicate all the crimes Jean-Jacques Rousseau himself alludes to, depopulate humanity, destroy farms, make refugees out of the entire human population.

Ironic isn't it, that all the communists seem to oppose land ownership yet claim to support farmers, without whom there would be no land ownership concept itself.

No, those "communist" states of the 20th century were state-capitalist in their operation. They acted as a giant bureaucratic corporation and had their own elites.


If you have the right to look at self-proclaimed communists and declare that they are not communists, then I too have the right to look at folks like you and declare that you're not communists either. Particularly "in operation." Tell me, who owns the computer you're using, the clothes you're wearing, the food you ate?

Of course you've said later that you're a not-really-hardcore-communist. At least you're honest. But maybe that just says no one is a hardcore communist, because it's impossible to be one unless EVERYBODY (that is, 6 billion plus people) decides ALSO to be one.

Which doesn't seem to be happening.

anyways, capitalism's "freedom" is hardly free. work, or starve. work under the opression of your bosses and, worse, the owners who take money from your - the worker's - pocket in the form of profit. profit is theft.

Work or starve? Funny, guess what life was like 10,000 years ago? Guess what life is like for a wolf in a pack, or a sheep in a herd? If you don't pull your own weight, you DO starve. Let's just pretend capitalism invented the concept of survival.

Oppression of your bosses? please. Oh, they force you to work for them? You've no choice? They whip your back, they beat you if you don't work, they treat you like cattle? Modern communists whining about how oppressive employers are make me SICK. Try living as a REAL slave, stinking in the filth of blood and sweat and absolute lack of options, every single move dictated to by owners who will kill you rather than let you escape, then come talk to me about "wage slavery." There IS real slavery in the world, and every time a well-fed American insists he too is somehow a slave because he and his boss don't get along, and that therefore his suffering is 'equal' to theirs, it makes me want to puke.

That's the problem. For someone to be successful, someone else has to be miserable. The goal should be for all to be equally happy.

Ah, now let's pretend that capitalism invented the concept of FINITE RESOURCES. The fact that there are finite resources means global society is a zero-sum game in that regard.

And "equally happy?" Do you really think having wealth makes someone happy, and so having X amount of wealth translates to being X happy? Your mindset is even more materialistic than the Evil Capitalist Overlords if so.

Sure there is. Farmers sustain the world by providing food. Not to say that doctors also do not provide essential service. The real criminals are the CEOs and celebrities raking in millions more than their work merits.

Who pays to see celebrities? Farmers and doctors.

Who votes on the board of directors? Who owns a share? Who buys the product? Farmers and doctors.

And what, CEOs and celebrities are CRIMINALS? Oh sure, because being elected by a board of directors is a violation of the law. Oh wait it isn't, you're just mis-using words in order to villify and demonize who you perceive as the enemy. Typical tactic, works on the stupid.

The rich do not work: the proletariat are the ones who do the actual work, but the fruit of their labour is stolen from them by the bourgeois. Property is theft!

Ooh someone ELSE who can copy and paste pseudo-Marxist tripe. How very fucking impressive. No, I mean it. You've convinced me. *does the commie power salute*

bull. it takes money to make money.

True. Ever hear of loans? Venture capital? Partnerships? Even, dare I say, corporations? Apparently not.

It can be done, but not everyone can do it.

To each according to his ability.

Oops.

And its going to end. America is going to end, every captialistic country is going to end.

Repent for the end is nigh!

All things come to an end. The earth, the solar system, the universe, humanity. This kind of statement doesn't have much use.

I'll take the system that allowed me to drop out of college, start a business with almost no money, sit on my ass at home drinking beer or smoking pot and designing web sites for a very comfortable living...

But thanks for asking!

Oh, wait, I must be one of those "wealthy" people in the top 1%... who knew?

YOU'RE JUST OPPRESSING THE INTERNET!

Every time you make a dollar, God kills a starving proletariat! :D

the problem with the "almost everybody is inbetween" idea, is what happens when you look at the actual distribution of wealth. of course most people fall in between the poorest person in america and the richest - that's trivial. but when we compare how much of the total wealth they own, pretty much everybody is hanging out down on the low end, though a bit above the poorest guy in the country.

the richest 1% of americans own ~40% of the total wealth
the richest 5% own ~65% of the total
the richest 20% own ~ 85% of the total.
which leaves the bottom 80% of the population with just 15% of the total wealth available, and most of that is concentrated among the richest end of of the 80%.
the bottom 40% of us have less than 0.5% of the scraps to fight bitterly over.

and this distribution is the absolutely natural outcome of the capitalist system. it is utterly impossible under capitalism for most of us to really get anywhere. and even if some of us do, it must be at the expense of others who fall behind.
As I mentioned, if the lifestyle I lead can be conducted by being in the bottom 80%, I'm very, very happy with the system under which I currently operate. :D

I don't think I deserve to be in the top 20%. It doesn't keep me awake at night knowing there are others out there who are better off than I am.

And trust me guys, if I can make a decent living doing exactly what I always wanted to, then anyone can do it with almost any level of ambition.

That's a circular argument and assumes its premise. You'll have to do better than that.

there was a time before any human owned anything as private property - land was held in common, etc. someone first asserted dominion over some land, and in a very real sense stole it from everyone else. this new owner used violence to hold this land and to claim the right to take some of what the non-landowners made when he graciously allowed them the use of 'his' land. this skimmed wealth eventually accumulates and technology advances to the point where the descendents (not necessarily biological ones) of the early land owners are able to graciously allow people to build them factories and such, and charge them for the privilege. then the factory owners are able to graciously allow people to work in them and charge them for the privilege. all of this means the owners wind up holding pretty much all of the wealth while the people do pretty much all of the work.

it's all theft. it started with a theft, and the theft became institutionalized and compounded. and worse than being institutionalized theft, the system has horrific costs of human suffering. all for the benefit of the tiny elite of theives.

woah this thread's moved fast since i had tea :eek:


You're missing the point. Capitalism makes the wealth, Socialism redistributes the wealth, and Communism is the truly equal society at the end. You don't need more wealth if you already have everything you need.
and you, sir, have just made my sig with that!

Work or starve? Funny, guess what life was like 10,000 years ago?

work (if you can even call it that) for a couple hours every few days, and eat even when you don't?

there was a time before any human owned anything as private property - land was held in common, etc. someone first asserted dominion over some land, and in a very real sense stole it from everyone else. this new owner used violence to hold this land and to claim the right to take some of what the non-landowners made when he graciously allowed them the use of 'his' land. this skimmed wealth eventually accumulates and technology advances to the point where the descendents (not necessarily biological ones) of the early land owners are able to graciously allow people to build them factories and such, and charge them for the privilege. then the factory owners are able to graciously allow people to work in them and charge them for the privilege. all of this means the owners wind up holding pretty much all of the wealth while the people do pretty much all of the work.

it's all theft. it started with a theft, and the theft became institutionalized and compounded. and worse than being institutionalized theft, the system has horrific costs of human suffering. all for the benefit of the tiny elite of theives.

true.

there was a time before any human owned anything as private property - land was held in common, etc. someone first asserted dominion over some land, and in a very real sense stole it from everyone else.
Oh, come on FS... I know you can do better than that. There was a time when humans offered virgins as sacrifices to the Gods because they thought it would bring them rain, but WTF does that illustrate?
If I barged into your home right now, and brought 10 lice-infected crackheads with me, would you really be so "what's mine is yours"?

Property rights stem from a very real need to "keep out the trash". That's it.

You wouldn't want to allow your bathroom to become a very public restroom, would you?

I'm sure you're intending to say something more effective than this. But starting off the argument about the first guy with the first stick isn't convincing anyone. It just sounds rediculous.

As I mentioned, if the lifestyle I lead can be conducted by being in the bottom 80%, I'm very, very happy with the system under which I currently operate. :D

but how much better could your life be if you got your actual worth out of the deal - or at least a fairer cut?

more equal distribution of the fantastic amount of wealth we are all creating allows the rest of us to throw off all the unnecessary hardships that have been imposed on us to support the rich elite's power and privilege. and we can even stop thousands of people from starving to death while doing it. That's the real kicker - we can save thousands of lives and be better off than we are now.

Your making the assumption that hard work only means wailing a sledgehammer for 12 hours a day , which by the way any moron can do , as opposed to running the day to day operations of a fortune 500 company. I would like to see who can do whose job , being clever today is being seen as a negative thing , I really do fear the future then get an education work hard and stop bitchin.

I know you won't like this analogy, but I'd like to draw your attention to the persona of Stalin. Here was an incredibly smart man, who knew exactly when to take advantage of political/economic/social opportunities that presented themselves. He got to where he was because he was very clever and very opportunistic. Did he ever do an honest day's work in his life? Probably not. But he ended up being one of the most visibly successful (in terms of prestige) individuals in human history. And, as with a Fortune 500 company, running a super power wasn't something any moron could do.

Yet I don't suppose you'd admire those qualities in him, nor would you argue he deserved the position of power he ended up in, would you?

Property rights stem from a very real need to "keep out the trash". That's it.

no, they don't. they can be used to some extent to serve that purpose, but that is neither their primary purpose nor their primary effect. that goal can be achieved through numerous other possible systems of access and control, without the injustices created by the system whose primary function is to facilitate the transfer of wealth from the mass of producers to the tiny elite.

Name me one communist country that didn't reach economic problems or where the people didn't starve or that became wealthy and where the people weren't oppressed.

Here's the problem with communism IN PRACTICE:

People are involved. It's what makes governments and economic theory fail.

I've actually written some stuff on why communism failed in Russia and Maoist China, and basically there's one reason: they weren't ready for it! In Das Kapital Karl Marx SPECIFICALLY stated that of all the place that his theory could be tried, Russia was probably the place where it was most likely to fail. Why? Because they were a mere 2 generations removed from Feudalism. Read some Communist Manifesto.

My theory is that if we were going to try to succeed in communism, we need a conglomerate of two main political systems: socialism (equality of all) and democracy (voting for all) with a judicial comitee of computers programmed to be unbiased (on people, not the law). We'd also need a small police force to keep some basic order, as well as a foolproof lie detector.

As long as we have a ruler, elected in republican fashion or brought to power in a coup d'etat (i.e. Stalin, Mao, etc.), we will always have corruption due to human interference. Remove the power from the few and put it into the many, and BAM! it's all good.

China is going to be the next world superpower, in my humble opinion, because they maintain social and political order while allowing economic freedom. That's the best we can do with our current technology.

Peace out. :cool:

but how much better could your life be if you got your actual worth out of the deal - or at least a fairer cut?
I believe I get more than an adequate cut for the actual work that I do.

And a "fairer" cut is a rediculous idea to me. I get paid too much money compared to people in other countries to do what I want when I want to.
For me it's about freedom and independance. I'm not so greedy that I'd buck this system for a "fairer" cut, whatever that would be.

Also, I highly doubt that the inevitable Nomenklatura elite wouldn't skew that system to the point where I'd wind up with far, far less than I have now. Plus, I'd probably be told exactly what I should do to contribute to the system (or "guided" in that direction), and then would have to go to a real job, and work around real assholes, and deal with very real office politics.
*shivers*

I'll keep with the current capitalist system, and cut my losses. ;)

As I mentioned, if the lifestyle I lead can be conducted by being in the bottom 80%, I'm very, very happy with the system under which I currently operate. :D

I don't think I deserve to be in the top 20%. It doesn't keep me awake at night knowing there are others out there who are better off than I am.

And trust me guys, if I can make a decent living doing exactly what I always wanted to, then anyone can do it with almost any level of ambition.

Yes, however try being in the bottom 80% in the world, and make those nike trainers for the bottom 80% in the US.

Are all the communists in this game at the bottom of the social ladder, and just find it impossible to climb it. Or can't bring themselves to climb it. All communism realy is when you get down to it is taking away from the wealthy who HAVE puthard work into building their companies, and giving it all to the poor. So it is nothing but stealing. That is why nobody can increase their standard of living. So you work all your life and in the end get no rewards. Plus it takes away all your rights for what? I'll tell you what so the wealthy and middle classes who work hard for their money are forced to give it all up and live life as a poor person regardless of all their hard work. That is why I think it appeals to the poor because it forces their bosses to live like them.
So for all the communists out there I ask you what the hell kind of government is this?

As for me I say LONG LIVE CAPITALISM.


Er...actually, I'm one of those Bourgeoisie communists. The one's who cross over upon realization that the revolution is imminent and it's better to help the enslaved class. But no, I'm in the top tier of the capitalist ranks. My family consists of Presidents and VP's of companies. But I know that they are the enemy. Good people, and I'd hate to have to execute my own family, but no one else is going to.

Might be off topic, but it seems to me the only resource left to hand for those lazy people who could make their lives so much better if they just worked hard, (even though they work work 14 hours a day for no benefits already ....) would be to utilise all of the starving war torn people who died around about them. Perhaps they could use the bodies for fertilizer or perhaps even sell it to a fast food chain? I have yet to see a US-Euro company use the dead bodies yet there is a niche in the market. And it is an inexhaustible resource.

You see all these people need to do is get off their lazy backsides and work the remaining 10 hours in the day they have to themselves dodging bullets on subsistence food and utilise the resources around themselves ....

work (if you can even call it that) for a couple hours every few days, and eat even when you don't?

Someone had to work. Or there was starvation. This is fact.

And yes, it's considered work. If that isn't, then I daresay many of the so-called "workers" today also don't work.

Yes, however try being in the bottom 80% in the world, and make those nike trainers for the bottom 80% in the US.
Now that does sound shitty. It really does. But I guess if those countries just shared everything they owned with one another, life would be peachy.
But then again, since they don't own shit, it probably wouldn't help.

I'm not going to accept responsibility for a government and its people that I have no real way to affect. What happened to all of the Iraq-induced non-interventionism?
Let them work it out for themselves.

I do outsource some of my work to Indians and Czhecks occasionally, and they're pretty happy with the wages I pay them per project. I'm not sure what this has to do with communism.










Cheap Chinese shit at Wal-Mart, produced by poor Communists sells well here in the states, though. :p

The creator of this topic fits into one of a few categories...

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Now that does sound shitty. It really does. But I guess if those countries just shared everything they owned with one another, life would be peachy.
But then again, since they don't own shit, it probably wouldn't help.


No they wouldnt, they dont have claim on their resouces poor infrastructure and cant really sell goods anywhere that has cash due to US and European anti-free-market import tarifs. You are right If they nationally shared everything nobody would have enough.


I'm not going to accept responsibility for a government and its people that I have no real way to affect. What happened to all of the Iraq-induced non-interventionism?
Let them work it out for themselves.


I didnt ask you to.
Whats Iraq got to do with it?
Yes let them. The trouble now is we dont. Nicuragua for example.


I do outsource some of my work to Indians and Czhecks occasionally, and they're pretty happy with the wages I pay them per project. I'm not sure what this has to do with communism.

Yes, India and Czech republic have decent benefits system, the reason you outsource there is lower cost of living not so much oppression but its all relative compared to urban countryside etc. Try looking in on an EPZ if you want to see how the other half live.


Cheap Chinese shit at Wal-Mart, produced by poor Communists sells well here in the states, though. :p

What does China have to do with Communism?

The concept of communism is seductive, because if it worked, there really would be equality in the world, but, it is flawed, and so is human nature, so therefore it never works. Capitalism doesn't work very well either, as we can see exeplified in the decline in the economy and government of the United States. Communism is flawed, because it allows no real freedom among it's people, and it really isn't equality because some people will always misuse their power, thus becoming dictators (Fidel Castro, for example). But, the more freedoms we have, the more people will be allowed to hate other people, and become better then them, thus building the social and economic ladder, which allows things like poverty and arrogance to happen.

No they wouldnt, they dont have claim on their resouces poor infrastructure and cant really sell goods anywhere that has cash due to US and European anti-free-market import tarifs. You are right If they nationally shared everything nobody would have enough.
I'm glad we both agree that government regulation in the free market distorts an otherwise good system. Or, at least that's what it sounded like you were saying.



I didnt ask you to.
Whats Iraq got to do with it?
Yes let them. The trouble now is we dont. Nicuragua for example.
Not a question, I'll move on.


Yes, India and Czech republic have decent benefits system, the reason you outsource there is lower cost of living not so much oppression but its all relative compared to urban countryside etc. Try looking in on an EPZ if you want to see how the other half live.
Again, glad you can see that.


What does China have to do with Communism?
As much as capitalism has to do with America, since we do not practice "true" capitalism. We practice a weak, heavily regulated and overtaxed form of capitalism with a socialist flair.

i am a communist and i want to say that capitalism doesn't work you may look at the colapse of the soviet union Для земли мати as the only example of communism. that society may not have worked but look at china when ever a communist country agrees to open up to the world they always become a super power and as for capitalism look at africa over 20 countries in africa are capitalist and look at the state of there economies in 15 years chinas economy will over take america let see how communism will rival the worlds only superpower

i am a communist and i want to say that capitalism doesn't work you may look at the colapse of the soviet union Для земли мати as the only example of communism. that society may not have worked but look at china when ever a communist country agrees to open up to the world they always become a super power and as for capitalism look at africa over 20 countries in africa are capitalist and look at the state of there economies in 15 years chinas economy will over take america let see how communism will rival the worlds only superpower
I'll have to agree with the commies on the board here and state the obvious:

China is no longer communist, it's a fascist corporate police state.
Hell, if it works for them, let's all adopt the system! :rolleyes:

The creator of this topic fits into one of a few categories...

Rich Republican
Middle Class Republican
Poor Republican (I.E. Idiot)
Southerner
Blind Patriot (I.E. Idiot)
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An Heir/Heiress
Or anything but with morals and religion in view.

i am a communist and i want to say that capitalism doesn't work you may look at the colapse of the soviet union Для земли мати as the only example of communism. that society may not have worked but look at china when ever a communist country agrees to open up to the world they always become a super power and as for capitalism look at africa over 20 countries in africa are capitalist and look at the state of there economies in 15 years chinas economy will over take america let see how communism will rival the worlds only superpower


Can you own property in China ?
Can you profit from your efforts ?
can you choose your own job ?
can you own a business ?
Do different jobs pay different wages ?
If you do a better job do you earn more money ?
can you sell items for profit?
can you hire workers?

If you answered yes to any one of these questions ......................


THEN CHINA IS NOT A COMMUNIST COUNTRY

Welcome to the world of capitalist pig boys !
If communism was so hot why did you have to change to make any progress in your own country ? The only way to improve conditions was to ........

OPEN UP FREE ENTERPRISE ZONES !!!!!!!



BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHA !!!!!!!

Wanna buy a hamburger ?

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D ;)

giving them low wages is no good and who decide how much one's work should worth? the employers.
The employee has the opportunity to refuse the wage being offered and find another job, so that doesn't wash.

there was a time before any human owned anything as private property - land was held in common, etc. someone first asserted dominion over some land, and in a very real sense stole it from everyone else. this new owner used violence to hold this land and to claim the right to take some of what the non-landowners made when he graciously allowed them the use of 'his' land. this skimmed wealth eventually accumulates and technology advances to the point where the descendents (not necessarily biological ones) of the early land owners are able to graciously allow people to build them factories and such, and charge them for the privilege. then the factory owners are able to graciously allow people to work in them and charge them for the privilege. all of this means the owners wind up holding pretty much all of the wealth while the people do pretty much all of the work.

it's all theft. it started with a theft, and the theft became institutionalized and compounded. and worse than being institutionalized theft, the system has horrific costs of human suffering. all for the benefit of the tiny elite of theives.


OK, the primitive communism thing is pretty specious, because we don't know anything about that. But of course I can't prove you wrong either so whatever. I highly doubt that people farmed the land and allowed anyone to take the fruits of their labor but I'll let that slide.

The part about the employees being charged for their labor escapes me though. Perhaps you could find a way to make that make sense.