NationStates Jolt Archive

Firstly I apologize for what seems to be a longish copycat thread. I barely ever make new posts so allow me this, please! I noticed the other thread along these lines was locked with a recommendation it be approached form a different angle. Well here goes. I am not going to bother with a poll.

Whether you are aware of it or not, I am a gay male, 37 years of age. Not flaming nor uber butch. Most people IRL don't have a clue unless I told them outright. I dont do drag or whatever my apartment is a perpetual mess, I dress like a hick and I am not a great cook or whatever.

I realized I was homosexual when I was roughly 12 or 13, but there's more to this to follow. When I say homosexual I mean not bisexual nor even remotely interested in females. To be honest there is nothing more effective at clearing my mind of unlcean thoughts as a picture of a naked woman. Even a female voice can be enough to do it. On the theorized sexuality spectrum I'd place myself at 100% homosexual.

When it first became known to me let's just say I went into a panic mode though not right away because I wasn't sure what it was. The words homosexual, fag, queer, etc. initially meant nothing to me aside form being silly words as kids we'd use to berate one another. After putting two and two together concern slowly gave way to a silent horror which went on through my teens and into my late twenties after over a decade of severe clinical depression and one much too close suicide attempt.

All in all it was a life shattering experience. Needless to say I didn't do well in highschool because if my mind wasn't preoccupied with very screwy thinking it was hobbling along on whatever drugs or alcohol I could get. I suppose this is from where the disdain I and perhaps others have to those who think it's some choice. Believe what they wish but the choice theory is something I laughed at since I was barely a teen.

Whether it's due to environmental, experiential, or genetic effects I have no idea though there's one thing I do know. Although I became aware of it at puberty it was there as early as age four if not earlier. This would tend to rule out environment and experiential factors as at that time I didn't have any comprehension of sex and sexuality at that age, I was never abused and my parents were just great.

I was actually closer to my father until about age 14 or so then he became abusive because I think he knew. This blows the bad father theory right out of the water. I have two older brothers who aren't gay so this would also rule out at most the layperson's umbrealla concept of genetics known more accurately Mendelian inheritablity (dominant recessive genes etc.) so I am left wondering about environment. Whatever it was if anything, precedes my earliest memories so I can't say much there.

I won't say I was born gay but I wouldn't say a heterosexual person was born heterosexual just as no human is born sexually mature. When I consider my first taste of the 'forbidden fruit' at age four consisting of recurring erotic
dreams I can't help but to wonder if those were the 'wet dreams' I never had in adolescence. I am nearly certain they were and to note that the female brain matures sooner than the males it would seem a plausible explanation that the basic neurology of homosexuals is partly androgynous. That this involves the lower brain it would also seem to rule out experiential effect and of course "choice." Environment also would seem to be out of the picture but in the most broad sense. My closest friend going back to childhood also turned out to be gay but he knew about his self and I knew about mine well before we knew each other and it wasn't until we were adults did we know about each other. No we never had sex and probably never will.

One thing which ate at me while I was young was what did straight people do to turn out 'right.' From my persepective heterosexuality could be viewed as a choice or due to environment. I was convinced had I done something, anything different I would be different. Looking back on it all I realize this simply isn't true but who knows. There seems to be a lot of egocentricity when it comes to sexuality and as well to the societal morals thus defined by what I could only call the politics and the fear and loathing which mindless thugs and most religious folks have in common.

Before I go on much longer I'll end this by asking the heterosexuals was their sexual orientation a choice? Was there something you did or did not do?

Come on let's have it! I am all ears...but I probably won't be back 'til tomorrow coz I gotta sleep. :/

I didn't choose, I've just always felt attracted to women. I really have no other explanation.

Heh, sry I don't have much to say after that huge speech-thingy of yours.

Heh, sry I don't have much to say after that huge speech-thingy of yours.

Just throwing out a few things that some people seem unable to get... and it's a lot. :)

For a couple of years I thought I actually might have been gay or at least bi(I use to fanatasies about being with a woman), I didn't act on it. Now, years later I find being sexual with a woman repulsive. So.. dunno if I was just confused for a time or if I chose my path.

HAHAHAHAHAHA my brother said the same bullcrap as you do he said he knew he was gay when he was 13 and he was screwing girls sine he was 14 years of age you notice the people who are homosexual usally have similar backgrounds and so on and forth hetrosexual is natural now your going
"where is your proofs" well have you even seen a pregnant guy sex isint for fun it's for reproduction and if being homosexual is natural shouldnt there be a more calm reponse in a hetrosexual mind when he looks at a gay couple because it is natural and dont give me that homophobia crap i aint scared of gays i have 2 brothers who are gay and they had exactly the same personality when they were younge i belive that gays are somewhat confused to the point they think they arnt hetrosexuality is natural because something comes out of a women in 9 months after intercourse if you show me one piece of true and reliable evidence that gay guys or girls can have babies without the need of doctors and surgeons than i might change my mind but until then goodbye

HAHAHAHAHAHA my brother said the same bullcrap as you do he said he knew he was gay when he was 13 and he was screwing girls sine he was 14 years of age you notice the people who are homosexual usally have similar backgrounds and so on and forth hetrosexual is natural now your going
"where is your proofs" well have you even seen a pregnant guy sex isint for fun it's for reproduction and if being homosexual is natural shouldnt there be a more calm reponse in a hetrosexual mind when he looks at a gay couple because it is natural and dont give me that homophobia crap i aint scared of gays i have 2 brothers who are gay and they had exactly the same personality when they were younge i belive that gays are somewhat confused to the point they think they arnt hetrosexuality is natural because something comes out of a women in 9 months after intercourse if you show me one piece of true and reliable evidence that gay guys or girls can have babies without the need of doctors and surgeons than i might change my mind but until then goodbye

I think I will leave this assault on literacy and rationality just as is.

If I go gay someday .....I promised a co-worker he would be first.

He is keeping his hair combed and teeth brushed for just such a occasion.

So the morale is promise them your moon and they will beg for more!

I dont think anyone chooses either orientation...you cant help feeling attracted to whomever you would like to bugger.

Whether sexuality is decided or not, the attitude towards discussion in this thread must be applauded.

I have 2 good friends who are gay, i found out after I'd known them for a while and I still see them as the same people they were before. I don't think hetrosexuality is any more of a choice than homosexuality. It's just a part of who someone is, accept it and appreciate a person for who they are.

Simple i find Women Hot and Men Thugish
How can anything like men?
have you seen Greeks?

I agree with Weybl; sexuality is part of who you are, but it not who you are in total. In relation to the original question, I have a number of gay friends who reckon they were born that way. I, and my other heterosexual friends, reckon they were born that way too. Although I'm sure for some people other factors can play a role, in light of those I know and those I have heard about, I'd speculate that sexuality is something you're born with. Whatever the case, though, it shouldn't matter. You're gay, you're straight - so what? You're still a normal person :)

now i'll make it clear that the whole idea of homosexuality isn't something i'm confortable with but it's just how people are so i can accept that. I heard somewhere that certain chemicals reacting in the brain trigger certain physical responces, perhaps there are ones that react to the stuff that the genders release into the world, and in different mixes your body will atribute those 'stuff' as being attraction. For example, a guy walks past a girl, doesnt really notice her but something in him makes him turn around...perhaps the pheramones or something like that, from when very young, always reacted stronger to the same sex (for homosexuals), and so these people have always attributed their gender to be attractive, over the other of course and if bisexual then a mix of each.

But if that was the case, would it constitute a medical problem to be solved by science? Would people consider that ethical? I think society would but for the individual, for example a gay man, would feel as though their whole existance was ripped from their feet...but would you choose to take the treatment, while your young, just to be normal or 'like everyone else'?

Now I'm seventeen and straight, so i'm experiencing the world (alright, the better half of the world) like an explosion in a forever calm field. I don't understand why men would be attracted to men or women to women, I'm living my life as it goes, but since my sexuality is the same as that which has allowed the continuance of the human race i have a feeling of assurance that i'm right. But i'm not sure if i even understand what i'm talking about, it's really confusing to me, i am really uncomfortable with the whole idea of homosexuality but since i don't understand it i can't judge...

i dont think that was of much use at all

In my personal experience, I have not seen my sexuality fixed. It seemed to evolve as I grew.

In the begining, I'd say I was almost exclusively heterosexual. But, as I passed puberty and reached adolesence, my mind grew to the idea that homosexuality is not an impossibility.

I'm heterosexual, because I find myself attracted to women by some inexplicable reason. But through my own experiences and learning, I've seen the possiblity and value of a same-sex relationship.

It may not be an issue of personal choice, but from a raw, uncondemnatory perspective, homosexuality as an inherent trait wherein partners do not procreate is evolutionarily unstable. If it was a natural occurrance, people with it would eventually die out. And yet, the number seems to be fairly regular. Even if the idea originated from Nature, it is Nurture that must have propagated it.

So while not necessarily a choice, and even if it is as a result of nature in a given person, the success of homosexuality is not due to natural means. This leads me to believe that it has a cause other than genetics, but that is biological nonetheless.

Has anyone ever done a study relating sexual preference to dietary habits? If so, I'd like to see the results.

Has anyone ever done a study relating sexual preference to dietary habits? If so, I'd like to see the results.

The only thing similar I am aware of is a study on the hereditability of methane containing flatulence and a diet consisting of indigestible sugars. :)

But seriously, that same study found a 95% correlation with heredity. I wrote a thread on this last night. Hehehhehe!!!

More seriously, non-reproduction of members of a given species would serve to abate genetic drift. Homosexuality, celibacy etc. and living to adulthood and competing with reproducing members and offspring is by definition a stabilizing force compared to sexual reproduction. It should also be noted humans are a single species with little variation. We have very few predators and are probably the only species whose members regularly die of old age. We are probably in the most desperate need for a bit of genetic pruning. Whether this is its adapted cause is unknown but definitely something to think about.

This thread got me wondering: how does one "realise" that one is gay at the young age of 10?

It may not be an issue of personal choice, but from a raw, uncondemnatory perspective, homosexuality as an inherent trait wherein partners do not procreate is evolutionarily unstable. If it was a natural occurrance, people with it would eventually die out. And yet, the number seems to be fairly regular. Even if the idea originated from Nature, it is Nurture that must have propagated it.

So while not necessarily a choice, and even if it is as a result of nature in a given person, the success of homosexuality is not due to natural means. This leads me to believe that it has a cause other than genetics, but that is biological nonetheless.

Has anyone ever done a study relating sexual preference to dietary habits? If so, I'd like to see the results.

Good lord, diet, what next, music type? type of underwear worn?

For me, I had no attraction to females, but at the same time I never went through that 'eww, girl cooties' phase that straight guys seem to go through from around 5-13; for me, it was wall to wall girls - I seem to have more in common with them.

As for how my sexuality developed, I don't know, but I doubt playing dolls or having female friends 'created' my homosexuality because my brother used to play dolls with my sister, and he is now an über heterosexual - he so straight, he makes Arnie look positively gay.

This thread got me wondering: how does one "realise" that one is gay at the young age of 10?

Attraction to the same sex? wanting to form a close relationship etc. etc.

Attraction to the same sex? wanting to form a close relationship etc. etc.
How's that different with best friend?

Best quote ever:

From Paul Reiser in "Mad About You", a show from the early 90s. He was in a basement with his friend, talking about sports, dreams, and his pending proposal to his girlfriend (Helen Hunt). Then some cute little blond thing comes down, and they start talking, with a bit of flirting. His friend cuts them off.

I've forgotten most of the commentary, but as the clbt walks away:
Paul: "Mmmm. Women... soft and good."

...and that's pretty much what being a guy is about.

I look forward to the day when mankind has evolved to the point where we can just have sex without feeling a need to label it. :rolleyes:

HAHAHAHAHAHA my brother said the same bullcrap as you do he said he knew he was gay when he was 13 and he was screwing girls sine he was 14 years of age you notice the people who are homosexual usally have similar backgrounds and so on and forth hetrosexual is natural now your going
"where is your proofs" well have you even seen a pregnant guy sex isint for fun it's for reproduction and if being homosexual is natural shouldnt there be a more calm reponse in a hetrosexual mind when he looks at a gay couple because it is natural and dont give me that homophobia crap i aint scared of gays i have 2 brothers who are gay and they had exactly the same personality when they were younge i belive that gays are somewhat confused to the point they think they arnt hetrosexuality is natural because something comes out of a women in 9 months after intercourse if you show me one piece of true and reliable evidence that gay guys or girls can have babies without the need of doctors and surgeons than i might change my mind but until then goodbye
Would you like to meet my good friends Punctuation, Grammar, and Spelling?


I'm not usually one to pick on that sort of thing, but seriously. A whole paragraph with no full stops, not even a comma. Must be some kind of record.

No, you don't choose to be heterosexual. It's the default position.

People don't choose to be homosexual anymore then people choose to be heterosexual. I thought this topic was dead.

"If it was a natural occurrance, people with it would eventually die out. And yet, the number seems to be fairly regular. Even if the idea originated from Nature, it is Nurture that must have propagated it."

Not at all. It has been a natural occurrance and people haven't died out. Nuture has next to nothing to do with it. It is defined by nature (genetics). :cool:

This thread got me wondering: how does one "realise" that one is gay at the young age of 10?
I was attracted to boys in my school aged ~10, before I even knew what "gay" really meant.

This thread got me wondering: how does one "realise" that one is gay at the young age of 10?
Same way one realises they are straight at age 6. That's right. I was a horney little girl stealing kisses from boys in grade one. Seriously.

People don't choose to be heterossexual. Its in them. Like, I sometimes think how would it be to kiss a man, or to have sex with one. I try to think seriously, but in truth, i get to disgusted to continue to think. I was made a hetero.

So i guess that the opposite is true. Gay people don't get to choose, even if they try to be straight. Its in them, they were made gay. Genetics or enviroment doesnt really matter, because its their nature. And since they dont harm anyone, going against their nature is as logical as illegalizing writting with your left hand.

Though i really don't care about genetics or enviroment: Grown people are free to choose, EVEN if gayness is chosen, its in their perfect right to be gay.

I look forward to the day when mankind has evolved to the point where we can just have sex without feeling a need to label it. :rolleyes:Well said.

Would you like to meet my good friends Punctuation, Grammar, and Spelling?

I'm not usually one to pick on that sort of thing, but seriously. A whole paragraph with no full stops, not even a comma. Must be some kind of record.Also well said!

I don't see where people get the idea of "fluid" sexuality at all. I'm not attracted to women. Plain and simple. As far as I'm concerned, I was born gay.

I certainly never chose to be heterosexual or did anything to make myself that way. In fact, at one point, after some disastrous (and, in one case, severely abusive and scary) relationships with men, I decided to try very hard to become bisexual, on the grounds that most women I knew seemed more honest and less capable of holding me down and punching me when they had a bad day. As I'm sure you can all predict, it didn't work. I simply couldn't see women as potential partners, and I felt no physical attraction to them. I'm sure any gay people who tried to "turn straight" would have much the same experience, and I laugh at anyone who thinks someone could just wake up one day and say, "You know, I think I'll like men instead of women from now on!"

From what I know of the subject, I suspect there is both a genetic and an environmental component (as is true of an awful lot of human traits). Very, very few aspects of someone's personality can be said to be caused solely by any one factor, and the people who ardently believe that all homosexuals were abused/had lousy father-figures/had lousy mother-figures/played with dolls/whatever are just as silly as anyone who believes the same about all heterosexuals.

I don't see where people get the idea of "fluid" sexuality at all. I'm not attracted to women. Plain and simple. As far as I'm concerned, I was born gay.

I have to side strongly with you on that one. I'm tired of people on here talking about "oh people can change".. yak yak yak.. I know how you feel.

I don't see where people get the idea of "fluid" sexuality at all. I'm not attracted to women. Plain and simple. As far as I'm concerned, I was born gay.
That particular concept comes from those of us who are not 100% attracted to one gender. I find some women attractive, but the majority of my partners have been male. I'm about an 80/20 heterosexual. I don't think this is 'choice' either.

As a psychology enthusiast (I intend to become a psychotherapist), this is one of the matters that I've looked into. I thought you guys might want to know what current psychology says.

According to current psychology, every person in born bisexual (this is natural - its seen in quite a few animals, actually), but certain experiences in life will lead each person toward one side or another, thus the entire spectrum. So, it isn't a conscious choice, nor purely genetics. Genetics are involved, as well as life experiences. It has to do with being able to see the possibility of a loving and/or sexual relationship with someone of either gender, and then finding a person of that gender who fits that idea.

Just thought someone out there might find that interesting.

According to current psychology, every person in born bisexual (this is natural - its seen in quite a few animals, actually), but certain experiences in life will lead each person toward one side or another, thus the entire spectrum. So, it isn't a conscious choice, nor purely genetics. Genetics are involved, as well as life experiences. It has to do with being able to see the possibility of a loving and/or sexual relationship with someone of either gender, and then finding a person of that gender who fits that idea.


I strongly and utterly disagree. I was never attracted to females, ever. I have not much faith in psychology as a field.

So people that don't think being homosexual is natural for those that are, you are telling me that someone will just wake up one day and decide to go through all the crap that goes along with being gay? Especially for a male. I mean if they didn't like the same sex, WHY would they do it? That would be like me walking around asking people to punch me in the balls. If I don't like to be punched there, why would I ask people to do it?

Some people make me wanna :headbang:

So people that don't think being homosexual is natural for those that are, you are telling me that someone will just wake up one day and decide to go through all the crap that goes along with being gay? Especially for a male. I mean if they didn't like the same sex, WHY would they do it? That would be like me walking around asking people to punch me in the balls. If I don't like to be punched there, why would I ask people to do it?

Some people make me wanna :headbang:

I know.. some people in here.. they just don't have a clue.. they say that heterosexuality natural.. but homosexuality is not. I did not wake up one day and choose it.. yeah why would I do it? I'm a gay male, and with the amount of the crap I had to put up with.. I don't know why anybody would choose being gay.

"I strongly and utterly disagree. I was never attracted to females, ever. I have not much faith in psychology as a field."

Yeah... maybe I didn't explain the theory well enough, because that can happen regardless of which gender you are. Genetics and experience mixed often leads to a preference of one gender or the other, to the point of not knowing and/or recognizing any interest in the other.

"I strongly and utterly disagree. I was never attracted to females, ever. I have not much faith in psychology as a field."

Yeah... maybe I didn't explain the theory well enough, because that can happen regardless of which gender you are. Genetics and experience mixed often leads to a preference of one gender or the other, to the point of not knowing and/or recognizing any interest in the other.

I just don't agree. This is why I decided against taking psychology as a minor. I don't have much faith in the arguments that psychology makes. Lets face it.. you don't know what is going on in the mind of others. I believe "experiences" is a very weak argument.

It explains very well why I'm bi, and I don't see why it doesn't explain others. People are the sum of their genetics and their experiences. Sometimes genetics factors in more, sometimes experiences.

But you know what? Whatever. Screw the explanation. The bottom line is that people are the way they are, and that's the way they are supposed to be. It's natural for one person to be straight, another gay/les, and another bi. That's really all that the thing matters.

And no, I won't argue or explain it anymore, I just put it up for anyone who thought that it might be interesting. Please stop trying to bait me.

I didn't choose. I always just liked girls, not boys. Even before puberty I knew. One of my male friends flashed me, it was disgusting. One of the little girls in my neighborhood offered "I'll show you mine if you show me yours". I was fascinated. You just are what you are. I really think it's biological. you're either wired to be straight, wired to be gay, or wired to be bisexual.

But you know what? Whatever. Screw the explanation. The bottom line is that people are the way they are, and that's the way they are supposed to be. It's natural for one person to be straight, another gay/les, and another bi. That's really all that the thing matters.

Well on that one I do agree with you...

My question is why does it seem that so many gay men harbor negative to hostile feelings towards women while some in the same breath trying to impersonate them. I've observed this personally and am still observing this behavior every day. The whole thing about "there is nothing more effective at clearing my mind of unlcean thoughts as a picture of a naked woman" just seems to be more than a sexual aversion. I'm 100% heterosexual male and naked men dont bother me that much so long as they leave me and my girlfriend alone and dont parade around in public places. I mean explain to me why so much porn includes men with women but the hetero men watching arent totally fucked up about it. The thought of them does not affect my libido either way. Probabally because I don't have issues with my sexuality to the point that I envy/hate anyone.

My question is why does it seem that so many gay men harbor negative to hostile feelings towards women while some in the same breath trying to impersonate them. I've observed this personally and am still observing this behavior every day.

I can't stop laughing.. I'm laughing so hard at this nonsense. Many gay men I know.. most of their friends happen to be girls. Girls find us easier to talk to. I have no hostile feelings towards women at all.

Good lord, diet, what next, music type? type of underwear worn?
The music you listen to and the underwear you wear don't directly put potentially hormone-restricting (or encouraging?) chemicals into your system. Diet has been linked to a number of other personality archetypes through changes in the chemicals that swirl around in your head, so why is that so infeasible for homosexuality? Heck, I'm entirely willing to admit that perhaps even heterosexuality might be enduced by some common foodstuff chemicals (like some sort of protein, possibly), and that a lack of them might encourage a swing in the other direction.

My question is why does it seem that so many gay men harbor negative to hostile feelings towards women while some in the same breath trying to impersonate them. I've observed this personally and am still observing this behavior every day. The whole thing about "there is nothing more effective at clearing my mind of unlcean thoughts as a picture of a naked woman" just seems to be more than a sexual aversion. I'm 100% heterosexual male and naked men dont bother me that much so long as they leave me and my girlfriend alone and dont parade around in public places. I mean explain to me why so much porn includes men with women but the hetero men watching arent totally fucked up about it. The thought of them does not affect my libido either way. Probabally because I don't have issues with my sexuality to the point that I envy/hate anyone.
I've yet to meet a gay man who 'harbours negative to hostile feelings towards women'. In fact, they're usually friendlier and more open than het guys, and easier to get along with. But they can be bitchy, just like chicks:) And for those that are really on the extremes of either spectrum, then yeah, I can see how a naked member of the opposite sex would be unappealing. I avoid porn with nasty blonde chicks, because they just don't do it for me. Does that mean I harbour negative feelings towards blondes? No. I just don't get hot watching a cute guy ream them.

Diet has been linked to a number of other personality archetypes through changes in the chemicals that swirl around in your head, so why is that so infeasible for homosexuality? Heck, I'm entirely willing to admit that perhaps even heterosexuality might be enduced by some common foodstuff chemicals (like some sort of protein, possibly), and that a lack of them might encourage a swing in the other direction.

That's debunked because I have the same diet as many of my straight friends (we often party a lot). So really, if that is the case then why do so many people I know are straight?

The food stuff chemicals argument is possibility the most lamest one yet. Breaking all previous records.

I've yet to meet a gay man who 'harbours negative to hostile feelings towards women'. In fact, they're usually friendlier and more open than het guys, and easier to get along with. But they can be bitchy, just like chicks:)

I saw this one talk show showing heterosexual guys who are abusive towards women. Hmmm...

I'm a bitchy gay guy sometimes.. but I'm very open to talk with...

I saw this one talk show showing heterosexual guys who are abusive towards women. Hmmm...

I'm a bitchy gay guy sometimes.. but I'm very open to talk with...
No! Say it isn't so! Guys who are sexually attracted to women, but who harbour negative and hostile feelings towards them? That doesn't make sense! [/sarcasm]

Gay guys make great pals. Well, not ALL of them, but in general:)

No! Say it isn't so! Guys who are sexually attracted to women, but who harbour negative and hostile feelings towards them? That doesn't make sense! [/sarcasm]

Gay guys make great pals. Well, not ALL of them, but in general:)

It was on Maury today now that I remember.... these straight guys were in "relationships" with these women.. and treated them as their slaves and beat them regularly.

Heheh... yeah in general they do.. some aren't.. heh

No! Say it isn't so! Guys who are sexually attracted to women, but who harbour negative and hostile feelings towards them? That doesn't make sense! [/sarcasm]

They were probabally gay

They were probabally gay

You're full of it. Get real.

Most gay guys are cool with women.. in fact females find me easy to talk to.

And I'm sorry but all your bs does'nt dismiss what I have seen with my own eyes

And I'm sorry but all your bs does'nt dismiss what I have seen with my own eyes

I don't spew BS. I speak the facts. And you are the one who could be lying. Afterall, do a few select individuals speak for all? You're nothing more then a liar and guess what? I have more ground to stand on because I happen to be gay.

You're full of it. Get real.

Most gay guys are cool with women.. in fact females find me easy to talk to.

Most females fimd me easy to talk to also. So?
I have lots of female confidants (what my gf allows me to have at least) and I never said all gay guys just the majority I have come in contact with and had to interact with.

Most females fimd me easy to talk to also. So?
I have lots of female confidants (what my gf allows me to have at least) and I never said all gay guys just the majority I have come in contact with and had to interact with.

You are very juvenile and very immature. The majority? Not even. Most females find gay guys easier to talk with. Most gay guys are cool and easy to talk with, and mostly have female friends. Heterosexual guys are the ones difficult to talk with typically.

I don't spew BS. I speak the facts. And you are the one who could be lying. Afterall, do a few select individuals speak for all? You're nothing more then a liar and guess what? I have more ground to stand on because I happen to be gay.

Yes and your "special" I get that. But don't call me a liar, my girlfriend just read what you wrote and says your illiterate because you did'nt read my first sentence and if you did you need help with your reading comprehension.

Yes and your "special" I get that. But don't call me a liar, my girlfriend just read what you wrote and says your illiterate because you did'nt read my first sentence and if you did you need help with your reading comprehension.

I have more ground to stand on then you. You are the one who needs help with reading comprehension. I don't need to know about your girlfriend (if you have one). I'm not illiterate. I could care less. Obviously you don't know what you are talking about, and you are a rather weak troll.

You are very juvenile and very immature. The majority? Not even. Most females find gay guys easier to talk with. Most gay guys are cool and easy to talk with, and mostly have female friends. Heterosexual guys are the ones difficult to talk with typically.

You are being as narrow minded and presuming as anyone. You started the name calling or are you immune to social ethical constraints due to your coolness and the fact that you are "special"? Besides I think most people are stupid cows anyway. By the way do you live in San Francisco?

You are being as narrow minded and presuming as anyone. You started the name calling or are you immune to social ethical constraints due to your coolness and the fact that you are "special"? Besides I think most people are stupid cows anyway. By the way do you live in San Francisco?

oh me narrow minded? Look who is talking. You are the one who needs to get a grip on yourself. Open up a thread and ask people here if they think gay people are easy to talk with. Gay people are far more easy to talk to, then ignorant heterosexuals as yourself.

I live in Los Angeles. Can you read?

oh me narrow minded? Look who is talking. You are the one who needs to get a grip on yourself. Open up a thread and ask people here if they think gay people are easy to talk with. Gay people are far more easy to talk to, then ignorant heterosexuals as yourself.

I live in Los Angeles. Can you read?


As a FEMALE, I can say gay guys are easier to talk with. They don't go through all the bullshit that straight guys seem to.

Pwned.

edit for clarification: I agree with the person I quoted. heh. Looking back, seems like I'm not.

I'm sorry I consider my healthy relationship with another human being an important part of my life. Does that offend you?
And I never stated anything about any majority of gay men so you do have comprehension issues or deliberatly twisted your words to undermine my post.

I'm sorry I consider my healthy relationship with another human being an important part of my life. Does that offend you?
And I never stated anything about any majority of gay men so you do have comprehension issues or deliberatly twisted your words to undermine my post.

Funny I didn't bring up my healthy relationship as it isn't relevant to this thread.

Nope, it doesn't offend me. I just don't see why you have to keep peddling it in this thread. You are the one with comprehension issues (and obvious insecurities).

Hahaha! Your gay!

Hahaha! Your gay!


Hahaha! You're a troll!

Hahaha! Your gay!

hahahhah ya so?

Well here in queer san fran I think that I have the observational advantage and I can tell you that there seems to be more bullshit spouting from gay men than I have ever heard from any group anywhere in the world. Not to mention the typical conniving, and malicious way that alot of them seem to live their lives. As far as most women are concerned they are obsessed with the latest fashion craze and gay boys are the latest fashion accessory, no gal is complete without one or three.

snips boring part

Before I go on much longer I'll end this by asking the heterosexuals was their sexual orientation a choice? Was there something you did or did not do?

Come on let's have it! I am all ears...but I probably won't be back 'til tomorrow coz I gotta sleep. :/

Your question is moot. Not needing to make a decision is not the same as deciding not to do something. For example - your probably did not eat pomegranates today - however you probably did not make a decision NOT to eat pomegranates today. The option has to be present first.

Just the same - few people get to decide NOT to be gay anymore than a person can decide NOT to have asthma.

Some people are born with asthma - some develop it as a result of environmental influence (allergies or smoking parents for ex.) - others as a result from their own smoking. One thing is certain - Most people who do not have asthma made no decision NOT to have it (enough negatives there?)

Same for sexual preference. Some people are born that way; others are a result of their environment or some combination of. The only heterosexual people who could say that they chose to be heterosexual are the ones who were comfortably gay or thought they might be at one time. The only gay people who could say that being gay is a choice were once comfortably heterosexual and had a change of preference or revelation.

Because heterosexual behavior is the societal and genetic default - most homosexuals have the experience of a realization that they are not heterosexual - while most heterosexuals experience no such epiphany. To describe either event as a 'chioce' would be inaccurate in all but the most peculiar examples - with the potential exception of considering seeking to intentionally condition ones behavior one way or the other a possible 'decision'.

Well here in queer san fran I think that I have the observational advantage and I can tell you that there seems to be more bullshit spouting from gay men than I have ever heard from any group anywhere in the world. Not to mention the typical conniving, and malicious way that alot of them seem to live their lives. As far as most women are concerned they are obsessed with the latest fashion craze and gay boys are the latest fashion accessory, no gal is complete without one or three.


Oh MAN. What world do YOU live in?

BS comes from Straight Guys too... what do you think all that 'I'll love you forever' shit is about a week before a breakup? Or 'no, I didn't forget...'

Anyone can be conniving or malicious, not just a certain group.

I HATE fashion. I wear t-shirts, jeans, and sneakers, New Balance because they're best for tennis (which isn't in fashion either). Currently I don't have gay guy friends, because I don't socialize, but I did in Jr. High and guess what? Most people hated him, he wouldn't be a 'fashion accessory'.

Funny I didn't bring up my healthy relationship as it isn't relevant to this thread.

Nope, it doesn't offend me. I just don't see why you have to keep peddling it in this thread. You are the one with comprehension issues (and obvious insecurities).

Yeah thats new, I'm a big, bad, old homophobe.
You can sodomize toasters for all I care. My issues are with a prevalant attitude and behavior in the gay community that we have to deal with every day and I believe the reason for this attitude and behavior is due to their insecurities not mine.

Well here in queer san fran I think that I have the observational advantage and I can tell you that there seems to be more bullshit spouting from gay men than I have ever heard from any group anywhere in the world. Not to mention the typical conniving, and malicious way that alot of them seem to live their lives. As far as most women are concerned they are obsessed with the latest fashion craze and gay boys are the latest fashion accessory, no gal is complete without one or three.

Uh huh. I live 5 minutes away from the gay mecca of California, west hollywood. So please shut up. A lot of them live a malicious way? you are nothing more then a ridiculous troll.

Yeah thats new, I'm a big, bad, old homophobe.
You can sodomize toasters for all I care. My issues are with a prevalant attitude and behavior in the gay community that we have to deal with every day and I believe the reason for this attitude and behavior is due to their insecurities not mine.

You're full of shit. That simple.

Your issues are moreso with yourself, rather then othres. You have terrible insecurities.

Hahaha! Your gay!


Haha! You're illiterate!

Uh huh. I live 5 minutes away from the gay mecca of California, west hollywood. So please shut up. A lot of them live a malicious way? you are nothing more then a ridiculous troll.

Yeah but your gay. Your in your natural environment and you would'nt know the difference because it's second nature to you.

You're full of shit. That simple.

Your issues are moreso with yourself, rather then othres. You have terrible insecurities.

Wow did you learn that lame response in west holly?

Yeah but your gay. Your in your natural environment and you would'nt know the difference because it's second nature to you.

Troll Troll Troll. You know what that is right?

I'm evil right? How so? Second nature to me? Hmm.. do you know me? You know anything about me? Have you met me?

Troll Troll Troll. You know what that is right?

I'm evil right? How so? Second nature to me? Hmm.. do you know me? You know anything about me? Have you met me?

Obviously he has... one gay guy is just like the next, right? You couldn't possibly be different from people he knew

:rolleyes:

Oh MAN. What world do YOU live in?

BS comes from Straight Guys too... what do you think all that 'I'll love you forever' shit is about a week before a breakup? Or 'no, I didn't forget...'

Anyone can be conniving or malicious, not just a certain group.

I HATE fashion. I wear t-shirts, jeans, and sneakers, New Balance because they're best for tennis (which isn't in fashion either). Currently I don't have gay guy friends, because I don't socialize, but I did in Jr. High and guess what? Most people hated him, he wouldn't be a 'fashion accessory'.

Have you ever been sexually harassed and not been able to do anything about it because the harasser was gay and that it is considered normal behavior?
Have you seen your girlfriend continually disrespected by gay males because how dare she be competition, or how dare she be a woman when they can't be?
We went to a restaurant with some friends and some gay guy was drunk and hitting on one of my friends and my friend told him politely that he was'nt gay and the prick spit on my friend. The punk ended up on the floor but when the cops showed up the punk said that it was a hate crime and they booked my friend. WTF? The charges were dropped when the assholes friends finally copped to the fact that he spit on my friend first(assault).
Plenty more experiences where those came from.

Have you ever been sexually harassed and not been able to do anything about it because the harasser was gay and that it is considered normal behavior?
Have you seen your girlfriend continually disrespected by gay males because how dare she be competition, or how dare she be a woman when they can't be?
We went to a restaurant with some friends and some gay guy was drunk and hitting on one of my friends and my friend told him politely that he was'nt gay and the prick spit on my friend. The punk ended up on the floor but when the cops showed up the punk said that it was a hate crime and they booked my friend. WTF? The charges were dropped when the assholes friends finally copped to the fact that he spit on my friend first(assault).
Plenty more experiences where those came from.


i am sure thats a very rare occurance..

and are you suggesting that we should expect all gay men to be perfect citizens?

do you not think that theres bad people in every group of society?

Have you ever been sexually harassed and not been able to do anything about it because the harasser was gay and that it is considered normal behavior?
Have you seen your girlfriend continually disrespected by gay males because how dare she be competition, or how dare she be a woman when they can't be?
We went to a restaurant with some friends and some gay guy was drunk and hitting on one of my friends and my friend told him politely that he was'nt gay and the prick spit on my friend. The punk ended up on the floor but when the cops showed up the punk said that it was a hate crime and they booked my friend. WTF? The charges were dropped when the assholes friends finally copped to the fact that he spit on my friend first(assault).
Plenty more experiences where those came from.

So you've had bad experiences. Try these: (note, not mine)

Being beaten up because you dare to be a gay guy.
Being harrassed for daring to not love women.
Treated as unhuman to not being the same as them.
Being gathered to labor camps and killed for being gay.

You got harassed by a DRUNK GUY. Did you EVER stop to think that a guy who was drunk might have done THE SAME THING TO YOUR GIRLFRIEND, had she been there? And when told no, would have tried to take her anyway? Then claimed she 'went after him' when the police came, or just plain ran.

Have you ever been sexually harassed and not been able to do anything about it because the harasser was gay and that it is considered normal behavior?
Have you seen your girlfriend continually disrespected by gay males because how dare she be competition, or how dare she be a woman when they can't be?
We went to a restaurant with some friends and some gay guy was drunk and hitting on one of my friends and my friend told him politely that he was'nt gay and the prick spit on my friend. The punk ended up on the floor but when the cops showed up the punk said that it was a hate crime and they booked my friend. WTF? The charges were dropped when the assholes friends finally copped to the fact that he spit on my friend first(assault).
Plenty more experiences where those came from.

That's very interesting and is probably very minimal compared to the bullshit I get from people. Especially from the latinos living in this neighborhood who are hardline catholics. Hmmm... how much disrespect do gay guys get from heterosexuals as yourself? Tons! I'm sure any minor disrespect you got was a rare occurrance. I'm pretty sure you are bullshiting on some of the things.

I belive, from semi-personal experience, that people are inherently Bisexual. Now from a darwinian stand point what I just said is stupid and weak, but from any other stand point it really isn't that farfetched humans are horny little bleeders, and altough this is just a theory I came up with twenty seconds ago, I belive that our *Ahem* reproductive organs really dont care what hole there in, or whats in that hole, as long as its there. Just putting that out there.

That's very interesting and is probably very minimal compared to the bullshit I get from people. Especially from the latinos living in this neighborhood who are hardline catholics. Hmmm... how much disrespect do gay guys get from heterosexuals as yourself? Tons! I'm sure any minor disrespect you got was a rare occurrance. I'm pretty sure you are bullshiting on some of the things.

I never disrespect anyone unless they disrespected me first like you did because i am not immature and most importantly I have self respect.

I never disrespect anyone unless they disrespected me first like you did because i am not immature and most importantly I have self respect.

I didn't say you didn't have self respect. I just don't think you are mature, or secure.

Obviously he has... one gay guy is just like the next, right? You couldn't possibly be different from people he knew

:rolleyes:

Could you people read first please I have never stated anything about all or most, just "alot of" and that was based on MY experience. I have know a few gay guys that were comfortable with themselves just not enough to rule out higher than the standard percentage of assholes in any group.

So you've had bad experiences. Try these: (note, not mine)

Being beaten up because you dare to be a gay guy.
Being harrassed for daring to not love women.
Treated as unhuman to not being the same as them.
Being gathered to labor camps and killed for being gay.

And where is this happening? Please tell me because I don't see it.

Could you people read first please I have never stated anything about all or most, just "alot of" and that was based on MY experience. I have know a few gay guys that were comfortable with themselves just not enough to rule out higher than the standard percentage of assholes in any group.

You need to get over yourself. Your experience, which is not substantial in any length, is not indicative of the reality.

And where is this happening? Please tell me because I don't see it.

What an ignorant little guy.... it is happening all over the fucking world, even in this country.

And where is this happening? Please tell me because I don't see it.


Being beaten up because you dare to be a gay guy.

Be a gay guy in the sticks. Or just in a group of homophobes.

Being harrassed for daring to not love women.

Same as above

Treated as unhuman to not being the same as them.

History stuff, might not be happening today

Being gathered to labor camps and killed for being gay.

Let's see... the Holocaust? It wasn't just jews.

These may not all be happening NOW, but they *did* happen and they couldn't do anything about it.

That's very interesting and is probably very minimal compared to the bullshit I get from people. Especially from the latinos living in this neighborhood who are hardline catholics. Hmmm... how much disrespect do gay guys get from heterosexuals as yourself? Tons! I'm sure any minor disrespect you got was a rare occurrance. I'm pretty sure you are bullshiting on some of the things.

Why do you guys have to be such pussies? I have never initially disrespected anyone I have met. You don't know me. Oh and by the way disrespecting people is not normal behavior in the real world so stay in lala fairy land until you can learn some manners. That goes for all bipeds out there.

Why do you guys have to be such pussies? I have never initially disrespected anyone I have met. You don't know me. Oh and by the way disrespecting people is not normal behavior in the real world so stay in lala fairy land until you can learn some manners. That goes for all bipeds out there.

You disrespected me on this forum. You called me a pussy, and you use stupid generalizations. I'm sick of you and your disrespecting ways. You are the one who is not demonstrating respectfu lbehavior here. You should learn some manners.

Why do you guys have to be such pussies? I have never initially disrespected anyone I have met. You don't know me. Oh and by the way disrespecting people is not normal behavior in the real world so stay in lala fairy land until you can learn some manners. That goes for all bipeds out there.

Now, if you've never disrespected anyone, how can you call someone you've never met a pussy? You proceed to say that disrespecting people is not normal behavoir, yet you open your statement with an unmistakable ad hominiem? Thirdly, you insist Metsatecala learn manners while your entire post is insulting and rude. Logical contradictions abound.

Being beaten up because you dare to be a gay guy.

Be a gay guy in the sticks. Or just in a group of homophobes.

Being harrassed for daring to not love women.

Same as above

Treated as unhuman to not being the same as them.

History stuff, might not be happening today

Being gathered to labor camps and killed for being gay.

Let's see... the Holocaust? It wasn't just jews.

These may not all be happening NOW, but they *did* happen and they couldn't do anything about it.


I said "is". I have never witnessed a hate crime against any gay in my life and Im from Arkansas. I don't seem to recall any of my gay friends there having any difficulties. One of them even lives in a big pink house in the middle of town. I was a bartender in Little Rock and interacted with many members of the gay community. And word to the wise, if your gay don't hangout with homophobes I don't think they'll go out of their way to hang out with you. As for the "holocaust" alot of those persecuted for being gay were just labeled as thus as an excuse. It was a way for people to get rid of their neighbors or whoever they did'nt like. And the ones who were really gay how did the state know about it. Oh they could'nt keep their private lives to themselves.

I said "is". I have never witnessed a hate crime against any gay in my life and Im from Arkansas. I don't seem to recall any of my gay friends there having any difficulties. One of them even lives in a big pink house in the middle of town. I was a bartender in Little Rock and interacted with many members of the gay community. And word to the wise, if your gay don't hangout with homophobes I don't think they'll go out of their way to hang out with you. As for the "holocaust" alot of those persecuted for being gay were just labeled as thus as an excuse. It was a way for people to get rid of their neighbors or whoever they did'nt like. And the ones who were really gay how did the state know about it. Oh they could'nt keep their private lives to themselves.

You know the saying.. ignorance is bliss! :rolleyes: Just because you don't see these things in your little world, does not mean they aren't happening.

I said "is". I have never witnessed a hate crime against any gay in my life and Im from Arkansas. I don't seem to recall any of my gay friends there having any difficulties. One of them even lives in a big pink house in the middle of town. I was a bartender in Little Rock and interacted with many members of the gay community. And word to the wise, if your gay don't hangout with homophobes I don't think they'll go out of their way to hang out with you. As for the "holocaust" alot of those persecuted for being gay were just labeled as thus as an excuse. It was a way for people to get rid of their neighbors or whoever they did'nt like. And the ones who were really gay how did the state know about it. Oh they could'nt keep their private lives to themselves.


Oh my god, you've never witnessed it so this means it NEVER HAPPENS. What a shock this will be when it hits the press.

So YOUR town doesn't. That doesn't mean every town doesn't.

What if you don't know they're homophobes/they don't know you're gay? Believe it or not, most people's first question isn't "Do you hate gays/are you gay?"

And no.

http://www.365gay.com/newscon05/03/031605holocaust.htm
http://myweb.lsbu.ac.uk/~stafflag/pinktriangle.html
http://www.chgs.umn.edu/Educational_Resources/Curriculum/Homosexuals__Genocide_in_the_H/homosexuals__genocide_in_the_h.html

There was a LAW against being Gay and don't you dare say people wouldn't sell out a gay guy.

edit: I hate this form of html. Copy and paste yourself.

You disrespected me on this forum. You called me a pussy, and you use stupid generalizations. I'm sick of you and your disrespecting ways. You are the one who is not demonstrating respectfu lbehavior here. You should learn some manners.

You called me a liar right off the bat! Like your second response to me. And you called me immature. What is that? You are afully ignorant of proper social protocols regarding respect of others. You can't call someone a liar initially and say their immature then later whine about disrespect mabye "pussy" was right on the money. If you can't debate then go to another forum.

de·bate Pronunciation (d-bt)
v. de·bat·ed, de·bat·ing, de·bates
v.intr.
1. To consider something; deliberate.
2. To engage in argument by discussing opposing points.
3. To engage in a formal discussion or argument. See Synonyms at discuss.
4. Obsolete To fight or quarrel.
v.tr.
1. To deliberate on; consider.
2. To dispute or argue about.
3. To discuss or argue (a question, for example) formally.
4. Obsolete To fight or argue for or over.
n.
1. A discussion involving opposing points; an argument.
2. Deliberation; consideration: passed the motion with little debate.
3. A formal contest of argumentation in which two opposing teams defend and attack a given proposition.
4. Obsolete Conflict; strife.

You called me a liar right off the bat! Like your second response to me. And you called me immature. What is that? You are afully ignorant of proper social protocols regarding respect of others. You can't call someone a liar initially and say their immature then later whine about disrespect mabye "pussy" was right on the money. If you can't debate then go to another forum.

Dude you came in here swinging. You are the one who doesn't know how to debate, so please take that definition and write it on your head. Then look in a mirror and repeat it. Ask others to read it for you too. Then maybe you'll learn how to debate. You're a liar (because you assumed shit about me), you are generalizing, and you are immature.

Oh my god, you've never witnessed it so this means it NEVER HAPPENS. What a shock this will be when it hits the press.

So YOUR town doesn't. That doesn't mean every town doesn't.

What if you don't know they're homophobes/they don't know you're gay? Believe it or not, most people's first question isn't "Do you hate gays/are you gay?"

And no.

http://www.365gay.com/newscon05/03/031605holocaust.htm
http://myweb.lsbu.ac.uk/~stafflag/pinktriangle.html
http://www.chgs.umn.edu/Educational_Resources/Curriculum/Homosexuals__Genocide_in_the_H/homosexuals__genocide_in_the_h.html

There was a LAW against being Gay and don't you dare say people wouldn't sell out a gay guy.

edit: I hate this form of html. Copy and paste yourself.


So how do other people find obout gays private lives? If their in your bedroom thats illegal no matter whos bedroom it is. You have the same protection under the law as anyone else. If you don't like the society you live in then move.

Dude you came in here swinging. You are the one who doesn't know how to debate, so please take that definition and write it on your head. Then look in a mirror and repeat it. Ask others to read it for you too. Then maybe you'll learn how to debate. You're a liar (because you assumed shit about me), you are generalizing, and you are immature.

I never said shit about you.

I never said shit about you.

hahahahah.. you ought to be kidding me

So how do other people find obout gays private lives? If their in your bedroom thats illegal no matter whos bedroom it is. You have the same protection under the law as anyone else. If you don't like the society you live in then move.


Let's see.

This was NAZI GERMANY. I don't live there. If you can find anyone who lives there (and no, just 'Germany' doesn't count) kudos to you.

People did not like them. People hated them. People find out their gay/jew/gypsy, they report them. It doesn't matter how they found out.

THEY HAD NO PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW.

Did you READ any of those?! It was ILLEGAL TO BE A GAY MALE.

I am straight because it is the right thing to do. Also eastern gongor was saying that since he doesn't understand everything on this he feels like he shouldn't give his opinion. Well I am going to everyone you don't have to understand something to know if it good/bad, right/wrong. So eastern gondor please voice your opinion. Also I am a 17 year guy so I have a clue of how you feel. That is all I realy have to say on this subject.

P.S. Also why do people get so P.C. on this subject

I am straight because it is the right thing to do. Also eastern gongor was saying that since he doesn't understand everything on this he feels like he shouldn't give his opinion. Well I am going to everyone you don't have to understand something to know if it good/bad, right/wrong. So eastern gondor please voice your opinion. Also I am a 17 year guy so I have a clue of how you feel. That is all I realy have to say on this subject.

P.S. Also why do people get so P.C. on this subject

Well to me being homosexual is the right thing to do beacuse that is who I am.

So much flame baits here.

Meh. I love the ladies and always have.
I didn't choose to be straight. It's how I've always been.

I've got friends who are gay (a couple of whom found out
even after they were married with children) and the way I see it, it doesn't
bother me, so I don't care. If that's what they're doing, good
for them. So be it.

Of course!

I remember the day the sexuality fairy visited me. I hadn't given the issue much thought, so I had to think on the run, and make my decision quickly. However, it was hard - deciding something like what sexuality I would be for the rest of my life. I was taking so long that the sexuality fairy got annoyed and said, "Look, if you want, you don't have to choose one side or the other. You can choose somewhere in between."

So here I am, about 70-75% heterosexual.

No I did not choose to be only sexually interested in women. That choice was made for me by nature. The whole male/female thing with matching parts for such activities kinda nailed it for me.

Not to say Im crazy about anybody just because they are female. To be honest I dislike extremely far more females then I like. But in the end when it comes to finding a mate, I know how nature intended it and Im just fine with going along with that.

And Im not a homo-sexual hater either. As long as they dont make a pass at me I am fine. Even had a few folks who were pretty good friends who swang that way, but they respected my views as well and didnt try to either "hit" on me nor even convince me about their lifestyle and how it is a choice or not. (we just didnt go there, which actually was nice compared to other straight guys i knew constantly talking about bedroom antics, which is most annoying to me)

It is not a choice. Even if you do not believe in God and such. Then just nature would tell you how things were meant. (no, i dont buy headshrinker BS either so that course wont change my view, listen to them and we should welcome mass murderers and child rapist/killers into our homes with open arms too).

Main thing with the whole debate is simple. What you do in your bedroom is your business. World would be better if we all kept it there. We dont need gay parades, etc, anymore then we need similar things from the straight folks.

You can argue these things back and forth till the cows come home, but in the end it is just a personal choice one makes. Just own up to it and realize for alot of folks, there is no problem with it until it comes to those who have to flaunt it everywhere.

Anyhow, thats about all I really have to say on that matter.

No I did not choose to be only sexually interested in women. That choice was made for me by nature. The whole male/female thing with matching parts for such activities kinda nailed it for me.

So you are saying the only reason that you are interested in women is that they have a receptacle for your penis that you think was intended by nature?

I've got news for you, homosexual sex happens in a great the rest of nature just as much (if not more) than it does in human beings. Anyone who bothers studying up on the biology is well aware that nature intended both heterosexual and homosexual sex.

And Im not a homo-sexual hater either. As long as they dont make a pass at me I am fine.

You know, a rational person would be flattered when someone found them attractive. It is just as easy for a straight male to tell a gay male, "Thanks, but I'm not interested," as it is for any straight female to say the same to a straight male who expresses interest.

It is not a choice. Even if you do not believe in God and such. Then just nature would tell you how things were meant.

Yup, and nature tells some people/animals to be sexually interested in the opposite sex and other people/animals to be sexually interested in the same sex. It even tells some to be sexually interested in both sexes! :eek:

You can argue these things back and forth till the cows come home, but in the end it is just a personal choice one makes.

If it were a "personal choice one makes," then there would be a time in every person's life when they were equally attacted to both males and females and chose to only be attracted to one or the other.

So tell me, when did the sexuality fairy visit you?

hahahahah.. you ought to be kidding me

Do you understand the concept of past, present, and future tense in the english language?

Let's see.

This was NAZI GERMANY. I don't live there. If you can find anyone who lives there (and no, just 'Germany' doesn't count) kudos to you.

People did not like them. People hated them. People find out their gay/jew/gypsy, they report them. It doesn't matter how they found out.

THEY HAD NO PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW.

Did you READ any of those?! It was ILLEGAL TO BE A GAY MALE.

Again past, present, and future tense, got it? I never brought up NAZI Germany I was referring to the present state of things as in "is".

Have you ever been sexually harassed and not been able to do anything about it because the harasser was gay and that it is considered normal behavior?

THAT is what I *first* replied to.

That does not imply any tense besides the PAST tense.

Not being a gay guy, I supplied past events that have happened against gay guys in general, as you did against yourself.

You turned it to is AFTER my points, which is pretty ridiculous. I never said they were happening now, much as you never said that you were being harssed right now at this particular moment by a gay guy.

once again, as i posted in the "Do people choose to be gay" thread, IT IS GENETIC!

Why do you guys have to be such pussies? I have never initially disrespected anyone I have met. You don't know me. Oh and by the way disrespecting people is not normal behavior in the real world so stay in lala fairy land until you can learn some manners. That goes for all bipeds out there.

Your choice of words such as 'pussies' isn't the best thing to resort to. Be a little bit more respectable when debating.

~The Modified Freedom Forces of Euroslavia
Nationstates Forum Moderator~

once again, as i posted in the "Do people choose to be gay" thread, IT IS GENETIC!

There certainly is evidence that sexuality is partially genetically controlled. There is also evidence that hormones present in utero - from the mother - contribute to sexuality. There may be epigentic changes that we don't know about. And environment may be an influence as well.

Sexuality is a complicated trait - it isn't something we can point to a single cause for and say, "This is it!"

What we do know is that evidence points to the idea that sexuality is decided by the time someone is out of the toddler stage. As such, it cannot be said to be a "choice".

I've got news for you, homosexual sex happens in a great the rest of nature just as much (if not more) than it does in human beings. Anyone who bothers studying up on the biology is well aware that nature intended both heterosexual and homosexual sex.

Yup, and nature tells some people/animals to be sexually interested in the opposite sex and other people/animals to be sexually interested in the same sex. It even tells some to be sexually interested in both sexes! :eek:

If it were a "personal choice one makes," then there would be a time in every person's life when they were equally attacted to both males and females and chose to only be attracted to one or the other.

So tell me, when did the sexuality fairy visit you?

Yes, but in the ANIMAL kingdom more often than not its a social mechanisim based on control and status not sex. As is alot of human sex(humans with defective motivations for sex). But with healthy humans were supposed to have evolved beyond such crude displayes and impulsive acts. Rape is not about sex. Pedophilia is not about sex. Misogeny is not about sex. Nature intends nothing! "Nature" is a system of cause and effect. Some systems have a longer memory than others but it all comes down to responses to stimuli weither viable or not and the nonviables dont last long in a healthy population, but in an unculled, overly successful population all sorts of defective and nonviable responses invariably ensue. It amazes me how many people are still hung up on the "Nature vs. Nurture" thing, to me it seems pretty clear. As far as choice that seems like a stupid question. I couldnt choose to be gay if I wanted to. Now if certain predispositions developed either in conception due to genetic combination or later in development due to environmental stimuli it does'nt matter but I'm tired of "I was born this way" vs. "You chose to be gay" because its not a black or white issue yet both sides seem to think this way.

Your choice of words such as 'pussies' isn't the best thing to resort to. Be a little bit more respectable when debating.

~The Modified Freedom Forces of Euroslavia
Nationstates Forum Moderator~

Is"liar" any better?

There certainly is evidence that sexuality is partially genetically controlled. There is also evidence that hormones present in utero - from the mother - contribute to sexuality. There may be epigentic changes that we don't know about. And environment may be an influence as well.

Sexuality is a complicated trait - it isn't something we can point to a single cause for and say, "This is it!"

What we do know is that evidence points to the idea that sexuality is decided by the time someone is out of the toddler stage. As such, it cannot be said to be a "choice".

Ok so my last post does'nt disagree with you here

Yes, but in the ANIMAL kingdom more often than not its a social mechanisim based on control and status not sex.


Not true. often? I like to see some sources of that, i've seen many animals who are together and theres no domination or subordination, especially lesbian monkeys. And also, Wendell and Cass, the two gay male penguins at the New York 's central park.

You know what? I have an idea about one of the possible causes(?) of sexuality.

When one is born one is naturally sexually inquisitive. It wouldn't matter what sex or what object you're attracted to, but you were born to be interested in sex. So then how does one end up with one kind of sexuality? From the limited experiences I've read on this forum people say that they have found out to be homosexual at the age of 10-13. At this stage in life, puberty has just kicked in and the interest in sex just bubbled. With the media so blatantly open it is not hard to come into contact with something "sexual", most usually the near naked females on car, cigarette, clothes, jewellery and a lot of other ads. At the same time, for many in puberty, interest in the opposite sex dwindles, because we are trying to grow up into our own sexes. Boys will start sticking more to boys and girls stay with their own groups. Now with sexual desires kicking in AND grouping with friends of the same sex, it would become very easy for the growing teenager to become confused about his/her own sexuality. He/she is interested in sex, but knows too little about the opposite sex to find them interested. And with all the subliminal encouragement given by gay rights activists, one might actually believe one is homosexual and is born homosexual. For some people, this seemingly homosexual desire will begin to fall after you finish with puberty at around 20, but for others, it is already in their mind that they are homosexual, and therefore they will never shake this subconscious thought away, and end up as a homosexual.

If you're a teenager and you think you're a homosexual, chances are you aren't. Sexuality cannot be decided at puberty because growing is so volatile.

2 cents.

Have you ever been sexually harassed and not been able to do anything about it because the harasser was gay and that it is considered normal behavior?

THAT is what I *first* replied to.

That does not imply any tense besides the PAST tense.

Not being a gay guy, I supplied past events that have happened against gay guys in general, as you did against yourself.

You turned it to is AFTER my points, which is pretty ridiculous. I never said they were happening now, much as you never said that you were being harssed right now at this particular moment by a gay guy.

Originally Posted by Ouachitasas
"And where is this happening? Please tell me because I don't see it."


And then you said:

"Being beaten up because you dare to be a gay guy.

Be a gay guy in the sticks. Or just in a group of homophobes.

Being harrassed for daring to not love women.

Same as above

Treated as unhuman to not being the same as them.

History stuff, might not be happening today

Being gathered to labor camps and killed for being gay.

Let's see... the Holocaust? It wasn't just jews.

These may not all be happening NOW, but they *did* happen and they couldn't do anything about it."

Now I'm sorry if you've ever been beaten, harrassed, or being treated as unhuman. I don't like bullys, nor have I ever been one. But I have lived all over this country and I have known or come accross alot of openly gay guys and I don't think they had to deal with any more assholes than anyone else I know. And I've certainly never seen it. If they were pricks then their asses got kicked alot, just like any other prick, period. Hell I have seen gay on gay violence though, that was kind of funny :D So if there is a disproportionate number of pricks in the gay community then no wonder they get negative responses from society.

Originally Posted by Ouachitasas
"And where is this happening? Please tell me because I don't see it."


And then you said:

"Being beaten up because you dare to be a gay guy.

Be a gay guy in the sticks. Or just in a group of homophobes.

Being harrassed for daring to not love women.

Same as above

Treated as unhuman to not being the same as them.

History stuff, might not be happening today

Being gathered to labor camps and killed for being gay.

Let's see... the Holocaust? It wasn't just jews.

These may not all be happening NOW, but they *did* happen and they couldn't do anything about it."

Now I'm sorry if you've ever been beaten, harrassed, or being treated as unhuman. I don't like bullys, nor have I ever been one. But I have lived all over this country and I have known or come accross alot of openly gay guys and I don't think they had to deal with any more assholes than anyone else I know. And I've certainly never seen it. If they were pricks then their asses got kicked alot, just like any other prick, period. Hell I have seen gay on gay violence though, that was kind of funny :D So if there is a disproportionate number of pricks in the gay community then no wonder they get negative responses from society.


exactly my point. That was AFTER I GAVE MY POINTS. You have a past experience, I share my knowledge of the past. This does not mean that it's happening at this exact moment. Just as you weren't being harassed by a drunk gay guy at that moment.

Again: I am not a gay guy. Therefore, I haven't been harassed as such. Yes, I've had a bit of bullying as a kid... but everyone has that.

But just because YOU haven't seen it, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Thef act that you find two gay guys fighting each other simply because they are gay disgusts me.

Being gay does not make you a prick by default, nor make the majority of gay guys pricks.

Not true. often? I like to see some sources of that, i've seen many animals who are together and theres no domination or subordination, especially lesbian monkeys. And also, Wendell and Cass, the two gay male penguins at the New York 's central park.

Lesbian monkeys, just like better than usual grooming? Forming social bonds(i.e. social mechanisims), just a little more intimate, so what, if they did"nt procreate then bye bye lesbian simian offspring and if they did then they were'nt lesbians.
As for Wendell and Cass they are'nt in the wild so out the window that example goes.

P.S. were the Lesibian monkeys in a zoo? And what were their favorite positions?JK :D

exactly my point. That was AFTER I GAVE MY POINTS. You have a past experience, I share my knowledge of the past. This does not mean that it's happening at this exact moment. Just as you weren't being harassed by a drunk gay guy at that moment.

Again: I am not a gay guy. Therefore, I haven't been harassed as such. Yes, I've had a bit of bullying as a kid... but everyone has that.

But just because YOU haven't seen it, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Thef act that you find two gay guys fighting each other simply because they are gay disgusts me.

Being gay does not make you a prick by default, nor make the majority of gay guys pricks.

Ok, point taken and I don't think all gays are pricks just the ones that give a bad name to the rest of the gay community. Mabye its just gays in san francisco because I never had a problem with any I met/knew before I moved here. :confused:

Lesbian monkeys, just like better than usual grooming? Forming social bonds(i.e. social mechanisims), just a little more intimate, so what, if they did"nt procreate then bye bye lesbian simian offspring and if they did then they were'nt lesbians.
As for Wendell and Cass they are'nt in the wild so out the window that example goes.

Well, it happens in the wild as well - Wendall and Cass are simply a more obvious example.

Quite a few bird species form homosexual pair-bonds - even those that pair-bond for life, and this occurs just as often in the wild as it does in any lab setting. In fact, in some species, a bird trying to attract a homosexual mate has a completely different mating dance with which to do so.

In mammals, homosexual activity is quite common, considering that many wish to believe that it doesn't happen at all. There are even examples of transexual animals - notably in bighorn sheep. Were you aware that male-female giraffe mating has never been observed in the wild, while sexual activity between males has?

It doesn't really matter why sexual activity happens between animals in the wild - and any "reason" we attribute to it is coming from us, as we can't ask why they do it. What we know is that human beings are animals, and much like other animals related to us, we have homosexual members in our ranks. We use sex for many of the same reasons as those animals - relationship-building and pair-bonding being some of the main reasons that people have sex.

Well, it happens in the wild as well - Wendall and Cass are simply a more obvious example.

Quite a few bird species form homosexual pair-bonds - even those that pair-bond for life, and this occurs just as often in the wild as it does in any lab setting. In fact, in some species, a bird trying to attract a homosexual mate has a completely different mating dance with which to do so.

In mammals, homosexual activity is quite common, considering that many wish to believe that it doesn't happen at all. There are even examples of transexual animals - notably in bighorn sheep. Were you aware that male-female giraffe mating has never been observed in the wild, while sexual activity between males has?

It doesn't really matter why sexual activity happens between animals in the wild - and any "reason" we attribute to it is coming from us, as we can't ask why they do it. What we know is that human beings are animals, and much like other animals related to us, we have homosexual members in our ranks. We use sex for many of the same reasons as those animals - relationship-building and pair-bonding being some of the main reasons that people have sex.

Ok no arguement there, but it would be interesting if there was more research on the subject that was'nt biased or P.C. obstructed and the reasons for the observed occurences were found and published. Of course if it conflicted with either sides position it would be disputed.

And with all the subliminal encouragement given by gay rights activists, one might actually believe one is homosexual and is born homosexual. For some people, this seemingly homosexual desire will begin to fall after you finish with puberty at around 20, but for others, it is already in their mind that they are homosexual, and therefore they will never shake this subconscious thought away, and end up as a homosexual.

The protestant point of view indeed. Wrong one for that matter. I knew I was gay when I was 15, and that's a fact. I did not get encouragement from anyone. Sorry, but you owe me two cents for that one.

If you're a teenager and you think you're a homosexual, chances are you aren't. Sexuality cannot be decided at puberty because growing is so volatile.

Wrong.

The protestant point of view indeed. Wrong one for that matter. I knew I was gay when I was 15, and that's a fact. I did not get encouragement from anyone. Sorry, but you owe me two cents for that one.



Wrong.

And you have a better, and unbiased story?

And you have a better, and unbiased story?

Yes I do. In fact I have offered it. Dragon Bay has an extremely biased point of view, as do you. You have this image you have made up in your mind about gay guys and you won't seem to change it. Dragon is biased because of his religion. He tries to suggest that gay people are that way because somebody told them to be, and activists are out to recruit people. He of course is wrong.

Again I stand on a very good solid ground here.

Yes I do. In fact I have offered it. Dragon Bay has an extremely biased point of view, as do you. You have this image you have made up in your mind about gay guys and you won't seem to change it. Dragon is biased because of his religion. He tries to suggest that gay people are that way because somebody told them to be, and activists are out to recruit people. He of course is wrong.

Again I stand on a very good solid ground here.

Let me guess, anyone who has experimented with the same sex is genetically gay. And Its not possible for environment to play role in an individuals sexual development because if they're gay then they have gay genes. Just as ignorant as "the devil made them gay"

P.S. California has never been a very good solid ground. :D

Let me guess, anyone who has experimented with the same sex is genetically gay. And Its not possible for environment to play role in an individuals sexual development because if they're gay then they have gay genes. Just as ignorant as "the devil made them gay"

P.S. California has never been a very good solid ground. :D

He was suggesting that those who are gay were made that way by gay rights activists or other influences. I'm simply disputing that. Again you are not speaking from very good ground at all.

Sexaulity is (in my opinion) formed through both genetic and environmental factors. After all if something as simple as height is subject to both genetics and environment, it seems quite probable that complex 'personality and behaviour traits' would be formed no more simply.

You know, a rational person would be flattered when someone found them attractive. It is just as easy for a straight male to tell a gay male, "Thanks, but I'm not interested," as it is for any straight female to say the same to a straight male who expresses interest.

This is something that's always puzzled the heck out of me. I've had a couple of women express interest in me, and on both occasions I took it as a compliment and politely let them know that I didn't swing that way. I can't imagine why anyone would be upset by someone of their non-preferred gender hitting on them, so long as they're not overly aggressive (in which case it would be offensive regardless of who was doing it).

Could one of the people who would be upset by a gay person (or a straight person, if you're gay) hitting on them explain why? I'm genuinely curious.

(If people feel this is hijacking the thread, I'll take it elsewhere, but it seems sort of hijacked already...)

of course you are born hetero. Ive liked girls forever, and most people are born that way to (unless you are female then ur born to like guys) Idk to much about the science of the subject so im not gonna make generalizations to get yelled at.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyma
No I did not choose to be only sexually interested in women. That choice was made for me by nature. The whole male/female thing with matching parts for such activities kinda nailed it for me.



So you are saying the only reason that you are interested in women is that they have a receptacle for your penis that you think was intended by nature?

I've got news for you, homosexual sex happens in a great the rest of nature just as much (if not more) than it does in human beings. Anyone who bothers studying up on the biology is well aware that nature intended both heterosexual and homosexual sex.

Tyma answer:
Oh, so nature intended males to be able to be able to reproduce by one shooting a load in the others butt ? (nature - sex - reproduction of the species) Then why females around ?


Quote:
And Im not a homo-sexual hater either. As long as they dont make a pass at me I am fine.



You know, a rational person would be flattered when someone found them attractive. It is just as easy for a straight male to tell a gay male, "Thanks, but I'm not interested," as it is for any straight female to say the same to a straight male who expresses interest.

Tyma Response : keep telling yourself that. But it isnt the truth. One is natural, the other to most folks is, well just plain gross. Not a lot to ask for those folks to be careful who they approach.


Quote:
It is not a choice. Even if you do not believe in God and such. Then just nature would tell you how things were meant.



Yup, and nature tells some people/animals to be sexually interested in the opposite sex and other people/animals to be sexually interested in the same sex. It even tells some to be sexually interested in both sexes!

What creatures only reproduce by have sex with same sex ?


Quote:
You can argue these things back and forth till the cows come home, but in the end it is just a personal choice one makes.



If it were a "personal choice one makes," then there would be a time in every person's life when they were equally attacted to both males and females and chose to only be attracted to one or the other.

So tell me, when did the sexuality fairy visit you?

I was born as I am. I learned of life from my surroundings. And went from there. I learned about girls as most boys did. WTF. Dont matter. You will twist it however you like. Boys have a penis, girls have a vagina. Ya dont think nature had a clue when it did that ? All im saying, is dont cop out and say it wasnt a choice... good grief . ya chose to go against what is natural. Nothing really wrong with that. As long as you dont try to BS others it was natures intention.

Quoting is: [ quote ] and [ /quote ] - Just close those two. It makes your posts less confusing.

Anyways, I will say this finally.. being gay is who I am. It is natural for me to hold these attractions and I have a right to act on them.

Tyma Response : keep telling yourself that. But it isnt the truth. One is natural, the other to most folks is, well just plain gross. Not a lot to ask for those folks to be careful who they approach.

Ah - you're just the sort of person who could respond to my post. It's just 2 or 3 posts up. Wouldn't it be just as "gross" if, say, a really ugly old woman hit on you? Why does it bother you, so long as the person is polite and you can say no?

Old Ugly woman in what sense ? They might be different in our cases since I prefer older women, and I prefer inner beauty to outter.

But since you press. Heres a clue, if your in a pub, and in a mens room, and take a peek at the guy next stall overs talliewhacker. Dont comment on it unless he flying the same flag. That was the only time I acted out violently to a homo-sexual overture.

Nature intended men and women, if an older women I was not attracted to showed interest yes, I might be repulsed. But not as severely as a member of my own sex.

And no, it isnt in the same ballpark

He was suggesting that those who are gay were made that way by gay rights activists or other influences. I'm simply disputing that. Again you are not speaking from very good ground at all.

So could you grace us with your opinion then?

And I don't care about how you feel about my ground. Leave it alone already!

Old Ugly woman in what sense ? They might be different in our cases since I prefer older women, and I prefer inner beauty to outter.

But since you press. Heres a clue, if your in a pub, and in a mens room, and take a peek at the guy next stall overs talliewhacker. Dont comment on it unless he flying the same flag. That was the only time I acted out violently to a homo-sexual overture.

Nature intended men and women, if an older women I was not attracted to showed interest yes, I might be repulsed. But not as severely as a member of my own sex.

And no, it isnt in the same ballpark

Well, I'd say commenting on a stranger's private parts is pretty tacky regardless of the sexual orientation of those involved. I can't really understand a violent response, but being offended makes some sense.

I guess I just don't understand why it's not "in the same ballpark," as you put it. To me there's not a lot of difference between a person to whom I am not at all attracted and a person to whom I am not at all attracted. Ah well. I guess I'm just weird...

Well, I'd say commenting on a stranger's private parts is pretty tacky regardless of the sexual orientation of those involved. I can't really understand a violent response, but being offended makes some sense.

I guess I just don't understand why it's not "in the same ballpark," as you put it. To me there's not a lot of difference between a person to whom I am not at all attracted and a person to whom I am not at all attracted. Ah well. I guess I'm just weird...

Could you reword that ? sorry, no way to respond as I think you repeated yourself by accident. And in doing so cut out the punch if you will...

Could you reword that ? sorry, no way to respond as I think you repeated yourself by accident. And in doing so cut out the punch if you will...

No, I repeated myself on purpose. Read it again and you'll probably get it. :)

So could you grace us with your opinion then?

And I don't care about how you feel about my ground. Leave it alone already!

I already told you my opinion. You are the one who refuses to listen.

Nature intended men and women, if an older women I was not attracted to showed interest yes, I might be repulsed. But not as severely as a member of my own sex.


Nature did not intend that. In fact nature allowed homosexuals to exist, therefore your argument is void.

Nature did not intend that. In fact nature allowed homosexuals to exist, therefore your argument is void.

Oh i see, well atleast your admit it is not natural then.

If there is a hole lets put our pehinkle in it i guess :) Well, that is all good. But lets be honest it is a fricken choice.

Oh i see, well atleast your admit it is not natural then.

If there is a hole lets put our pehinkle in it i guess :) Well, that is all good. But lets be honest it is a fricken choice.

Wrong. It is natural for me. So please don't even try that same old argument I hear all the time. It isn't a damn choice.

Oh i see, well atleast your admit it is not natural then.

If there is a hole lets put our pehinkle in it i guess :) Well, that is all good. But lets be honest it is a fricken choice.

Acting on one's desires may be a "fricken choice," but having those desires certainly is not. Did you sit down one day and say, "Gee, I don't think I'll find men attractive, but I'll be attracted to women"?

Oh i see, well atleast your admit it is not natural then.


Of course it is natural, I dont buy into that 'devil made me do it', and barring supernatural causes, it must be either something that does not happen or a natural occurance.

As for the earlier poster's comments that it is not something intended by nature, this seems logical given no one has yet demonstrated that nature has an intent, or is an entity capable of having an intent, or even is an entity.

Wrong. It is natural for me. So please don't even try that same old argument I hear all the time. It isn't a damn choice.

Okie dokies. Wink Wink . Nudge nudge...
'

If you say so. :) I am not here to fight. Opinions were being given so I gave mine. And from life and experiences, it is a choice. Been given the option, luckily only one caught me in a real bad mood. Its a choice, kid yourselves however you like.

Okie dokies. Wink Wink . Nudge nudge...
'

If you say so. :) I am not here to fight. Opinions were being given so I gave mine. And from life and experiences, it is a choice. Been given the option, luckily only one caught me in a real bad mood. Its a choice, kid yourselves however you like.

Nudge nudge.. nudge me a bit more, and I'll become a boxer.

I'm here to debate. I'm here to be sharp with my opinions. It is not a chioce to be gay. You need to gain a little common sense... I think you are lacking in that field.

I believe sexuality whether heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, asexual and any other variant, is a choice.

I believe sexuality whether heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, asexual and any other variant, is a choice.

Why would anyone choose to be gay? So if it is a choice, does that mean you can change? I can't change. It isn't a choice.

nature allowed homosexuality to exist?

What the?
Your whole argument about sex being between everyone in nature just leads me to think of a quote by some comedian about gay men just being lazy, cos women are very demanding and if they aren't then they aren't worth your time. If nature allowed it to exist then why do so many straight people feel uncomfortable about it? I think it's because of our 'roll over and take it' policy in the world where we don't want to offend anyone about anything. Being ultra politically correct on everything just so everyone can be happy...No one has the guts to stand up to the gay community and say that something is wrong with you and we need to help you get better, and do you know how i know that, because there is going to be someone here who will have a good go at me for saying that. You're entitled to your opinion but next time you're offended about something think about if you actually are or if you just think you should be. If there was the same attitude towards mentally ill people as there is to the gay people in the world then there would be a feel of 'oh, its alright that they see things, thats just how they were born, they are just different. Don't discriminate because they are different.' Blah Blah Blah.

Again i ask. If someone found a direct chemical problem in a homosexual brain that would be treated at birth and prevent any such thing from happening wouldn't all the gay people out there feel like a black towel was thrown over your rainbow world? Would teenage boys who are repullsed by themselves (as i've been reading) while they grew up get themselves changed to be normal?

Gay men make up twice as much of the sex on the earth as heterosexual couples, which is two to three times that of lesbian couples. So, that stands to reason men are really really horny. I just felt like adding that to see if it could steer the conversation away from a slugg match..remmember, 'arguing online is like competing in the special olympics, even if you win you are still retarded' and could we all be grown up about that word please.

Alot of people here are using the 'i have a gay friend so that makes me know something' sort of lines. Nothing wrong with being gay and having a view on it but I'm not so i don't understand it. 'i know a black guy so i'm not racist' etc... i don't understand that.

Oh, and for the monkey's having gay relations...they also throw their waste and spend their whole lives hangin out, perhaps if they had a job they would only have time to love their other half and not so bored that they will try with everyone in their group.

what do you think? I'm just trying to put a fresh spin on it.

Oh here we go with the great illogicalities..


Your whole argument about sex being between everyone in nature just leads me to think of a quote by some comedian about gay men just being lazy, cos women are very demanding and if they aren't then they aren't worth your time. If nature allowed it to exist then why do so many straight people feel uncomfortable about it?

They feel uncomfortable about it because they don't do it themselves and don't want to. That's fine by them but that doesn't mean it is unnatural by any length of the means.

No one has the guts to stand up to the gay community and say that something is wrong with you and we need to help you get better, and do you know how i know that, because there is going to be someone here who will have a good go at me for saying that.

Twisted and... a rather wrong way to think. There isn't anything wrong with me. I've been in a very fullfilling relationship that is very strong thank you very much. He and I had our problems, but we work it out.

If there was the same attitude towards mentally ill people as there is to the gay people in the world then there would be a feel of 'oh, its alright that they see things, thats just how they were born, they are just different. Don't discriminate because they are different.' Blah Blah Blah.

You're treating homosexuals as mentally ill with your illogical thought process. Not my fault you completely rejected the notion of common sense.

Again i ask. If someone found a direct chemical problem in a homosexual brain that would be treated at birth and prevent any such thing from happening wouldn't all the gay people out there feel like a black towel was thrown over your rainbow world?

Direct chemical problem in a homosexual brain? Dude you sound like a fascist no offense. You think there is something wrong with me. But I'm just as capable as anyone else. You really need to get over your biases... but what i am saying? People are so blinded by their own notoriously unreliable beliefs.

Gay men make up twice as much of the sex on the earth as heterosexual couples, which is two to three times that of lesbian couples. So, that stands to reason men are really really horny. I just felt like adding that to see if it could steer the conversation away from a slugg match..remmember, 'arguing online is like competing in the special olympics, even if you win you are still retarded' and could we all be grown up about that word please.

So tell me smart one, how do you know that? Have you ever been in a homosexual relationship? let me tell you something.. my boyfriend and I did not have sex for nearly a month and a half. I know some of my straight friends who go from girl to girl. And I know girls who go from guy to guy. So that notion is pretty void and pretty ridiculous for that matter.


what do you think? I'm just trying to put a fresh spin on it.

Fresh spin on it? You mean a false spin? You sound like Bill O'Reilly.

If nature allowed it to exist then why do so many straight people feel uncomfortable about it?

First, because nature is not a person and doesn't "allow" things. If it exists, then it pretty much has to be natural, unless gay people have been genetically engineered by crazed robots from the sixth dimension.

Second, because your comfort zone has nothing to do with anything. I am made uncomfortable by people flagrantly making out in front of me - does that mean kissing is unnatural? I have a friend who's made deeply uncomfortable by the consumption of meat - does that mean carnivorousness is unnatural? Or does it just mean that people's emotions have nothing whatsoever to do with what is natural?

I could also give you a pretty decent lecture in introductory evolutionary biology to explain why it is "natural" for people to be uncomfortable with things that are foreign to them, but I'm tired. Take my word for it, though, okay?

If there was the same attitude towards mentally ill people as there is to the gay people in the world then there would be a feel of 'oh, its alright that they see things, thats just how they were born, they are just different. Don't discriminate because they are different.' Blah Blah Blah.


I didn't notice this the first time around...

I'm just curious, since you seem to think that discriminating against the mentally ill is perfectly acceptable, how you can justify that position?

(I believe in fair warning, so if you answer this, I suggest you tread carefully. This is a sensitive issue for me.)

nature allowed homosexuality to exist?

What the?
Your whole argument about sex being between everyone in nature just leads me to think of a quote by some comedian about gay men just being lazy, cos women are very demanding and if they aren't then they aren't worth your time. If nature allowed it to exist then why do so many straight people feel uncomfortable about it?
Er, perhaps you mean some straight people, I for example in not in the least distressed or discomforted. As for nature, allow me to repeat the sentiments in my earlier post. Nature does not made decisions, have an agenda, like or dislike things etc. Nature is simply a word we use to describe certain things and processes, it does not describe an entity capable of forming or acting on 'will'.

I think it's because of our 'roll over and take it' policy in the world where we don't want to offend anyone about anything. Being ultra politically correct on everything just so everyone can be happy...No one has the guts to stand up to the gay community and say that something is wrong with you and we need to help you get better,
Plently of people say exactly that, so there goes that theory...

and do you know how i know that, because there is going to be someone here who will have a good go at me for saying that.
Aha, and of course the reason why people say I shouldnt kill and eat babies is because they dont want to offend babies, I know because every time I suggest I should kill and eat babies someone has a good go at me for saying it...darn do-gooding PC'ers...

You're entitled to your opinion but next time you're offended about something think about if you actually are or if you just think you should be. If there was the same attitude towards mentally ill people as there is to the gay people in the world then there would be a feel of 'oh, its alright that they see things, thats just how they were born, they are just different. Don't discriminate because they are different.' Blah Blah Blah.
Nonsense. If being homosexual caused people the kinds of problems mental illness is capable of causing people, you might have a point, however that is not the case.

Again i ask. If someone found a direct chemical problem in a homosexual brain that would be treated at birth and prevent any such thing from happening wouldn't all the gay people out there feel like a black towel was thrown over your rainbow world? Would teenage boys who are repullsed by themselves (as i've been reading) while they grew up get themselves changed to be normal?
Presuming there is a 'normal' to be. Maybe all would, only some, or none, it's not really relevent so far as I can see.

Gay men make up twice as much of the sex on the earth as heterosexual couples, which is two to three times that of lesbian couples. So, that stands to reason men are really really horny. I just felt like adding that to see if it could steer the conversation away from a slugg match..remmember, 'arguing online is like competing in the special olympics, even if you win you are still retarded' and could we all be grown up about that word please.
I really do not see what your point is here, I neither know nor care how horny particular people are unless it directly impacts on me, and in this instance I dont see how it does.

Alot of people here are using the 'i have a gay friend so that makes me know something' sort of lines. Nothing wrong with being gay and having a view on it but I'm not so i don't understand it. 'i know a black guy so i'm not racist' etc... i don't understand that.
Perhaps they believe that it gives them access to information that is relevent to the issue.

Oh, and for the monkey's having gay relations...they also throw their waste and spend their whole lives hangin out, perhaps if they had a job they would only have time to love their other half and not so bored that they will try with everyone in their group.
Once again I'm really not sure what the relevence is supposed to be...

what do you think? I'm just trying to put a fresh spin on it.
Shrug...I fail to see the relevence of much of what you say, and the rest is hardly original (or 'fresh').

I dont think being a gay/lesbian or bi-sexual person is a choice, it is nature. I have read and watched many articles on the Human Brain. Just like it is totally up to nature as to whether we are born a boy or a girl it is nature to sway either the gay or straight way. There is no right or wrong way to live life and there is no right or wrong way to be sexually orientated.

If your gay, your gay and if your not your not. The point is WHO CARES if you are or aren't or why you are or aren't.. its just nature. Let it take its course... and stop caring so much about what everyone else does in their personal private lives and start caring more about yourself and what you do in your own personal private lives.

One thing that I forgot to mention in my last post was that if nature intended for us to all be heterosexuals and do the same thing we'd all be like robots. I think that we need to have a variety of people in this world otherwise earth would become a very un-interesting and boring place to be.

First off, Mesatecala, i'm tired of your crap. You're such a jerk to the guys trying to argue against your points legitmately, that you end up forgetting that you don't make any sense yourself. I think for those of us who have noticed that, it would not be hard to point out where you sound like you know nothing. So I'm not going to waste time on it.

Second off, I'm just curious. Since I know the majority of the posters at NS are evolutionists, or what have you, this probably won't be received well. But, if being homosexual is so natural, why did God choose in all His power and might to give Adam an Eve-woman, rather than a Mike-man? Or should He have just given Adam both, so that he could "choose" his sexuality preference. And what if he did choose Mike? Supposing all of this is true, nobody would have lasted after the first three people.

First off, Mesatecala, i'm tired of your crap. You're such a jerk to the guys trying to argue against your points legitmately, that you end up forgetting that you don't make any sense as well. I think for those of us who have noticed that, it would not be hard to point out where you sound like you know nothing. So I'm not going to waste time on it.

I don't make any sense at all? Troll. I do make sense. I go after these points and I have provided sources. My crap? What crap? I merely argue that sexuality primary cause is genetic. I make plenty of sense. I know nothing? You are the one who knows nothing. I know a hell lot more because I happen to be gay.

But, if being homosexual is so natural, why did God choose in all His power and might to give Adam an Eve-woman, rather than a Mike-man? Or should He have just given Adam both, so that he could "choose" his sexuality preference. And what if he did choose Mike? Supposing all of this is true, nobody would have lasted after the first three people.

What about those who do not believe in god? Homosexual is as natural as heterosexuality.

And you criticize me for not making any points.... hahah... what are you talking about? People don't choose to be gay.

Second off, I'm just curious. Since I know the majority of the posters at NS are evolutionists, or what have you, this probably won't be received well. But, if being homosexual is so natural, why did God choose in all His power and might to give Adam an Eve-woman, rather than a Mike-man? Or should He have just given Adam both, so that he could "choose" his sexuality preference. And what if he did choose Mike? Supposing all of this is true, nobody would have lasted after the first three people.

Supposing the Genesis story is literally true, we're all products of incest anyway.

(Also, you contradict yourself. If homosexuality is NOT a choice, then Adam wouldn't be choosing - and an omniscient God would presumably already know Adam's sexual preference.)

Why would anyone choose to be gay? So if it is a choice, does that mean you can change? I can't change. It isn't a choice.

We have been on this merry-go-round one too many times. So I will be brief. I believe sexuality is a choice you think sexuality is genetic. I believe I could choose to be any sexuality you do not. Valid opinions held by different persons. I in no way feel a need or compulsion to rehash any what and wherefores that were stated in the last thread. If you so choose you can look at my previous posts and refressh your memory. I for my part am quite happy to leave it the way it is.

We have been on this merry-go-round one too many times. So I will be brief. I believe sexuality is a choice you think sexuality is genetic. I believe I could choose to be any sexuality you do not. Valid opinions held by different persons. I in no way feel a need or compulsion to rehash any what and wherefores that were stated in the last thread. If you so choose you can look at my previous posts and refressh your memory. I for my part am quite happy to leave it the way it is.

Ok to make this short: I'll agree to disagree. You can hold the opinions you want. But I know one thing for sure.. I didn't choose to be gay.

I didn't notice this the first time around...

I'm just curious, since you seem to think that discriminating against the mentally ill is perfectly acceptable, how you can justify that position?

(I believe in fair warning, so if you answer this, I suggest you tread carefully. This is a sensitive issue for me.)


Actually it was more or less the norm not so long ago. Heck not too long ago manic depression was thought to be the result of a whole whack of things, none of which made any sense. As with any mental illness it was such a taboo people, including the psychiatric and medical community viewed it as whatever the hell they felt like. Sound familiar?

In the case of homosexuality it was also not only considered a mental illness but was a criminal offense. Not going back too far it was punishable by death in even western democracies. Scotland and a few others; largely European countries come to mind. I think it was Germany that was first among western nations to bring it out of the gallows. In the world's backwaters it remains as it was.

Even in Canada, it wasn't legal until about 1968 or '69 though it reamined in the DSM in one form or another until the late 1980's. Despite the layperson's take on it you won't find many credible psychologists who consider it a mental illness these days and the official position of the psychological and psychiatric community is that it is a normal naturally occurring variant. I suppose though the gay liberal psychologist conspiracy was responsible. *smirk*

Whehter it qualifies as a mental illness is something that was based upon religious morals, not science. Considering the history of it all and the the lingering hangover one could justifiably ask exactly who was or is off their rocker.

What about those who do not believe in god? Homosexual is as natural as heterosexuality.

I am an agnostic who partially agrees with you - but I wouldn't go so far to use the word "natural". By saying the two are equally natural you imply that they are both normal. On this I disagree. I hope this does not offend, but I consider homosexuality to be kind of a birth defect. It is a genetic malfunction. Is this natural? Perhaps. Normal? No.

That being said, I believe that because Gay people are born that way, it is absolutely wrong to infringe their right to engage in the lifestyle they were born to - This includes marriage.

I hope this does not offend, but I consider homosexuality to be kind of a birth defect. It is a genetic malfunction. Is this natural? Perhaps. Normal? No.

Um, actually it does deeply offend me. I do not have any birth defects. My sexual orientation is not a defect or a malfunction.

My sexuality is normal to me.

Ok to make this short: I'll agree to disagree. You can hold the opinions you want. But I know one thing for sure.. I didn't choose to be gay.


OMGooses maybe he's right!

*tries really hard to get excited looking at naked females*

This isn't working.

It never worked.

I did this through a good chunk of my teen years and gave up.

Choice? LOL!

Actually it was more or less the norm not so long ago. Heck not too long ago manic depression was thought to be the result of a whole whack of things, none of which made any sense. As with any mental illness it was such a taboo people, including the psychiatric and medical community viewed it as whatever the hell they felt like. Sound familiar?

In the case of homosexuality it was also not only considered a mental illness but was a criminal offense. Not going back too far it was punishable by death in even western democracies. Scotland and a few others; largely European countries come to mind. I think it was Germany that was first among western nations to bring it out of the gallows. In the world's backwaters it remains as it was.

Even in Canada, it wasn't legal until about 1968 or '69 though it reamined in the DSM in one form or another until the late 1980's. Despite the layperson's take on it you won't find many credible psychologists who consider it a mental illness these days and the official position of the psychological and psychiatric community is that it is a normal naturally occurring variant. I suppose though the gay liberal psychologist conspiracy was responsible. *smirk*

Whehter it qualifies as a mental illness is something that was based upon religious morals, not science. Considering the history of it all and the the lingering hangover one could justifiably ask exactly who was or is off their rocker.

The history of what people have considered mental illnesses is a depressing one indeed, and there's still some reclassification left to do. I get pretty annoyed when people claim perfectly normal variations in human personality make one "crazy" or mentally ill. In my post, though, I was mostly commenting on the idea that it's okay to "discriminate against" someone because they're mentally ill, apparently regardless of the nature of the illness. Since discrimination against the mentally ill is actually a serious problem in contemporary society (which I've been active in fighting), I'm a bit sensitive to stupid generalizations about anyone with a psychiatric disorder. I know people who've been denied jobs because they were voluntarily committed decades earlier - it's really pretty awful. :(

Ok,

Background:
Male, born into conservative Christian family.
Developed taste for boys at early age.
Also got involved with girls at early age.
I would consider myself by society's definition bisexual.

Now that you know all that, I will attempt to express my belief and explain it as well. Be gentle with me.

It's interesting that one of the recent posts mentioned Genesis. That is, in fact where it all began. Man was created perfect, woman given to him as a partner and companion. Sex was created for the comfort of man and woman and the procreation of the race.

Adam and Eve decided that, rather than being perfect, they would be better off as God, so they rebelled against the command of God and were therefore cursed with the burden of imperfection and SIN.

All problems mankind has encountered since then can be explained as originating in that very original sin.

Man was originally intended by God to be perfect and perfectly happy with a female partner.

We now have to jump forward to me, the boy who really, really likes penises. I have a choice to make. I can go along with my imperfect nature and play the game of "I have no choice, I was born this way." or I can chose to follow God's plan for me, which means chosing to not indulge my homosexual urges and even being married to a woman and loving her in the way He intended.

God has forgiven my sin through the sacrifice of Jesus, His son. I now have the choice to persue God's plan, or to continue in rebellion and sin, and face the consequence of living a sinful lifestyle.

I chose the joy set before me in eternity over a second or two of orgasmic delight with another man.

You may chose to disagree with me. Many have. This is what I believe, however.

Thank you.

Um, actually it does deeply offend me. I do not have any birth defects. My sexual orientation is not a defect or a malfunction.

My sexuality is normal to me.

I was afraid of that. I really was trying to be careful.... But you yourself have made statements like "Why would anyone choose to be gay?"

You recognize that being Gay is not in the norm. You know it's a difficult thing to be.

I don't know your opinion on Evolution, but it is quite evident that an organism that does not have a sexual urge to mate with the opposite sex is doomed in the long run. Minor differences in reproduction rates are all that is necessary to defeat a gene-line. I would suspect that is why in the natural world, animals show very few instances of homosexual behavoir. Even in those species that exhibit some of these traits, they are very intermittent - as in no permenant same-sex pair bonding. This seems to show that Gay behavoir, while it does occur rarely in the natural world, is not normal.

I don't say any of this as a value judgement - only as a comment on the "natural normalcy" of homosexuality.

You recognize that being Gay is not in the norm. You know it's a difficult thing to be.

But it is the norm to me. And i'm not changing.

I don't know your opinion on Evolution, but it is quite evident that an organism that does not have a sexual urge to mate with the opposite sex is doomed in the long run. Minor differences in reproduction rates are all that is necessary to defeat a gene-line. I would suspect that is why in the natural world, animals show very few instances of homosexual behavoir. Even in those species that exhibit some of these traits, they are very intermittent - as in no permenant same-sex pair bonding. This seems to show that Gay behavoir, while it does occur rarely in the natural world, is not normal.

Not in the human race.. population growth is still astronomical. In fact with technological growth population growth will slow. There are too many humans in this world today. Homosexual behavior is not going to doom a species (never will, never have). Also there are more then just "very few instances". I'm very staunchly pro-evolutionist, and I know for a fact that homosexual behavior is just about common.

I don't say any of this as a value judgement - only as a comment on the "natural normalcy" of homosexuality.

It isn't normal in your eyes, but in my eyes it is normal for me.

But it is the norm to me. And i'm not changing.

And I wouldn't dream of asking you to. The same way I wouldn't shout at a deaf kid to "listen up!"


Also there are more then just "very few instances". I'm very staunchly pro-evolutionist, and I know for a fact that homosexual behavior is just about common.

But there are zero instances of permanent homosexual pair-bonding to my knowledge. If I am wrong, please point out the species.

It isn't normal in your eyes, but in my eyes it is normal for me.

This isn't a question of perception. It's a question of reproduction rates. That's pretty objective. You seem very insulted by my implication that you're not normal. You need to get over that. I am not criticizing you, or your lifestyle, in the least. Not being normal is not in itself something negative. Was Michealangelo normal? Einstein? Beethoven? No. These were abnormal people.

no, im sorry, i didnt make sense. I have nothing against the mentally ill, the point i was trying to get across is that I accept that what they have is a problem, that they are sick and not just different from other people. I was suggesting that if society didn't accept say Depression (which it only recently is) as an illness then it would be a case of 'oh, they are just different'...Do you get what i mean? I was saying that homosexuality could well be like that, they just haven't found out that there is a reason behind it, a treatable reason (and we'll pretend that depression treatments actually work for the time being) like depression. Now that it is a recignised condition it can be fixed.

"Twisted and... a rather wrong way to think. There isn't anything wrong with me. I've been in a very fullfilling relationship that is very strong thank you very much. He and I had our problems, but we work it out."

Mate, power to ya, but you obviously missed the point. I said that if there was a diorder causing your homosexuality then people would be hounded for saying it should be done. Just for your responce i'm relieved that i was right, a gay man wouldn't accept he was 'broken', it's how you've always been. But wouldn't a colour blind person, who's never seen colour (bear with me) like to see things how the other people do, with colour?

Why is my thought illogical? An overwhelming majority of people are not gay, that stands to reason that something is different with the rest, I just want to know why. I was using the example of the mentally ill to illustrate the same sort of thing happening with the gay people, that you just havent found out whats wrong yet.

Now i don't deny that you're a capable human being, just as people with other problems are capable, but they still have a problem. Back when people didn't understand a woman properly they thought that when she was having a period that something was wrong with her, they just didnt understand it to be a normal function of her. So you may be normal, but the huge majority of men don't do that where as the huge majority of women do have periods.

i refrained from using pedofiles there so be thankful at least. (in that why they do their thing isn't understood either, but it's been recignised as a problem at least.)

Oh, that statistic on sex was from a graph sent out by a international study i read while i was studying in highschool. I rekon you could find it if you looked, but i'm sorry i don't remmember exactly what it was.

Poliwanacraca: I have a friend who's made deeply uncomfortable by the consumption of meat - does that mean carnivorousness is unnatural?

No it means that not eating meat is unnatural. You're looking at that particular issue from the wrong angle, and not shrugging aside I do think i am looking at homosexuality from the wrong side too, the straight one. From a teenager i don't understand it, sorry. You should have noticed i'm not calling names or dooming gay people to die in huge flames or crap like that, i'm all for your rights to be yourselves, i'm just pressing buttons to find out what sort of reactions i get and will get a better understanding.

Plenty of people don't stand up and say being gay is a problem to be fixed, they say its wrong, and i think we can all agree a hick with a yell isn't what i meant by a person standing up. I meant a scientist with a theory and a means. Also that the world wouldn't give the means cos of the bias society has towards not offending people.

And you know that homosexuality is not cause by a physical problem? So enlighten us all with what it is caused by, and not something that you think, or you have reason to believe, because so far all i've seen are people proclaiming their way to be the truth when they have no evidence. I'm only putting forward ideas.

Gay people have made it alright to be gay, fair enough, but i didnt get that education session at school so i have the right to make up my own mind on it, help me out here with something substatial and not these knee jerk reactions i get to a sentence i write, i'm being hospitable. Thats me agreeing with you Kakewalk.

I don't know your opinion on Evolution, but it is quite evident that an organism that does not have a sexual urge to mate with the opposite sex is doomed in the long run.
All organism are doomed in the long run. Mortality is an equal opportunity type thing.

Minor differences in reproduction rates are all that is necessary to defeat a gene-line.
Necessary and sufficient are not the same thing. Besides which no information I am aware proves or disproves the reproductive 'adaptiveness' of homosexuality.

I would suspect that is why in the natural world, animals show very few instances of homosexual behavoir.
Well you might suppose that, but so far as I can tell you'd be wrong. Plently of non-human animals engage in homosexual activities, including our closest genetic relevatives (bonobo chimps).

Even in those species that exhibit some of these traits, they are very intermittent - as in no permenant same-sex pair bonding.
Actually I understood that among species that practise permenant bonding, there was some evidence of homosexual bonding (of the permenant variety).

This seems to show that Gay behavoir, while it does occur rarely in the natural world, is not normal.
What do you mean by 'normal'? If you mean 'most common', I see no reason to disagree. I do not see why whether or not something is 'normal' is relevent. It's not normal to win a gold medal at the Olympics...so what?


I don't say any of this as a value judgement - only as a comment on the "natural normalcy" of homosexuality.
'Natural normalcy'? :confused:

How's that different with best friend?

Ok, if one feels the need to be pedantic then - a close physical and intimate relationship with a member of the same sex.

Debunking time.......

no, im sorry, i didnt make sense. I have nothing against the mentally ill, the point i was trying to get across is that I accept that what they have is a problem, that they are sick and not just different from other people. I was suggesting that if society didn't accept say Depression (which it only recently is) as an illness then it would be a case of 'oh, they are just different'...Do you get what i mean? I was saying that homosexuality could well be like that, they just haven't found out that there is a reason behind it, a treatable reason (and we'll pretend that depression treatments actually work for the time being) like depression. Now that it is a recignised condition it can be fixed.

No, I'm sorry it made perfect sense. You just don't want my opinions to make sense because they dispute your short sighted errors. Homosexuality is not comparable to a mental disease. No I don't get what you mean. In fact I'm saying you are very twisted and wrong. Homosexuality is not like that (enough with comparing homosexuality to something treatable). It isn't treatable nor can it be fixed.


Mate, power to ya, but you obviously missed the point. I said that if there was a diorder causing your homosexuality then people would be hounded for saying it should be done. Just for your responce i'm relieved that i was right, a gay man wouldn't accept he was 'broken', it's how you've always been. But wouldn't a colour blind person, who's never seen colour (bear with me) like to see things how the other people do, with colour?

Please work on your horrid amount of spelling errors. I make some typos, but not nearly the amount you do.

But lets get down to the point, I don't miss points especially not in this debate. I will say this: Gay people are not mentally sick or broken. It isn't something you can treat.

An overwhelming majority of people are not gay, that stands to reason that something is different with the rest, I just want to know why. I was using the example of the mentally ill to illustrate the same sort of thing happening with the gay people, that you just havent found out whats wrong yet.

Yes an overwhelming majority of people are not gay. Most people are right-handed. Does that mean left handed people are wrong and must be treated? Your example of mentally ill is irrelevant to this debate and almost sick in the head. There is nothing wrong.

just as people with other problems are capable, but they still have a problem. Back when people didn't understand a woman properly they thought that when she was having a period that something was wrong with her, they just didnt understand it to be a normal function of her. So you may be normal, but the huge majority of men don't do that where as the huge majority of women do have periods.

Umm, I don't have a problem. I'm a fine human being who is gay. There is nothing wrong with my sexuality. I don't know why you have such issues with that.. maybe some insecurities on your own part? I don't know you personally, but that's what I'm thinking.

i refrained from using pedofiles there so be thankful at least. (in that why they do their thing isn't understood either, but it's been recignised as a problem at least.)

You're being totally irrelevant.

No it means that not eating meat is unnatural. You're looking at that particular issue from the wrong angle, and not shrugging aside I do think i am looking at homosexuality from the wrong side too, the straight one. From a teenager i don't understand it, sorry. You should have noticed i'm not calling names or dooming gay people to die in huge flames or crap like that, i'm all for your rights to be yourselves, i'm just pressing buttons to find out what sort of reactions i get and will get a better understanding.

Is that guy full of it or what? He doesn't even know what he is saying and not backing himself up. Homosexuality is not wrong. You are calling gay people some rather sick things and accusing them of being wrong. So I take it as a personal attack. Pressing buttons? You are pressing nothing.. you are just peddling nonsense like what so many other people have done here.

Plenty of people don't stand up and say being gay is a problem to be fixed, they say its wrong, and i think we can all agree a hick with a yell isn't what i meant by a person standing up. I meant a scientist with a theory and a means. Also that the world wouldn't give the means cos of the bias society has towards not offending people.

Gay people cannot be fixed. I'm sorry but there is nothing to fix. You need to mature a bit, because saying you can fix it is just down right wrong. I'm sick of this. Standing up to what? Because you say so? But you're contradictory and not only that you're just plain wrong. I'm sorry. A scientist that has some common sense wouldn't agree with you.

And you know that homosexuality is not cause by a physical problem? So enlighten us all with what it is caused by, and not something that you think, or you have reason to believe, because so far all i've seen are people proclaiming their way to be the truth when they have no evidence. I'm only putting forward ideas.

Start backing yourself up. It is up to you to prove it because the burden of proof is on the one who makes the assertion. It is caused primarily by genetics but we have not pinpointed where. It is not a physical problem. You haven't provided shit to prove that it is a problem to begin with. As far as I've seen from you is just rhetoric and hot air, and no evidence. Putting forward ideas? Ones that have been long proven to be false.

Gay people have made it alright to be gay, fair enough, but i didnt get that education session at school so i have the right to make up my own mind on it, help me out here with something substatial and not these knee jerk reactions i get to a sentence i write, i'm being hospitable. Thats me agreeing with you Kakewalk.

Gay people have the right to be treated like human beings, and people like yourself are preventing that because you peddle BS.

But there are zero instances of permanent homosexual pair-bonding to my knowledge. If I am wrong, please point out the species.


From http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/h/ho/homosexuality.htm :


Homosexuality among animals may refer only to an apparent sexual behavior within the same sex, since the other two meanings are stated in terms of human traits. Homosexual behavior is common in the Animal Kingdom, especially in species closer to humans on the evolutionary scale, such as the great apes. Some believe that this behavior has its origin in male social organization and social dominance. However others reject that theory citing homosexuality in species that mate for life and female homosexuality.

Gay male Penguin couples have been documented to mate for life, build nests together, and use a stone to replace sitting on an egg in the nest. In 2004 the Central Park Zoo in the United States replaced one gay male couple's stone with a fertile egg which they then raised as their own offspring (*). A German zoo has also reported homosexuality among its penguins. This has also been reported at Kelly Tarlton's Aquarium in Auckland New Zealand. (*)

Courtship, mounting, and full anal penetration between bulls is common among American bison. The Mandan nation Okipa festival concludes with a ceremonial enactment of this behavior, to "ensure the return of the buffalo in the coming season(*)." Also, mounting is common among cows.

Homosexuality in male sheep (found in 6% - 10% of rams) is associated with variations in cerebral mass distribution and chemical activity. They concluded that biological factors are at play. This study replicated similar findings in humans. It shows that approximately 10% of males are homosexual and that the brains of homosexual males are different.

I know.. some people in here.. they just don't have a clue.. they say that heterosexuality natural.. but homosexuality is not. I did not wake up one day and choose it.. yeah why would I do it? I'm a gay male, and with the amount of the crap I had to put up with.. I don't know why anybody would choose being gay.

I second that. Unless someone is really into S&M, and loves tourture and humiliation, I don't think there would be any sane person who would volunteerily choose to be gay.

With that being said and having fought the up hill battle, I am at a stage now that I am happy with myself; fuck those who don't like me (well, not literally, because of them are ugly) - if they don't like it, they can go shit on a brick if all I care.

But there are zero instances of permanent homosexual pair-bonding to my knowledge. If I am wrong, please point out the species.

Incorrect.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html

This isn't a question of perception. It's a question of reproduction rates. That's pretty objective. You seem very insulted by my implication that you're not normal. You need to get over that. I am not criticizing you, or your lifestyle, in the least. Not being normal is not in itself something negative. Was Michealangelo normal? Einstein? Beethoven? No. These were abnormal people.

You aren't being objective. You're just being incorrect. Homosexuality has never endangered reproduction rates. What lifestyle? I strongly dislike that word as it is a misnomer.

Not being normal suggests something is highly negative.

All organism are doomed in the long run. Mortality is an equal opportunity type thing.
But gene-lines continue indefinately and that's what I clearly made reference to throughout. It's easy to cherry-pick a sentence and make a smart-ass remark. I do it all the time. ;)


Well you might suppose that, but so far as I can tell you'd be wrong. Plently of non-human animals engage in homosexual activities, including our closest genetic relevatives (bonobo chimps)..... Actually I understood that among species that practise permenant bonding, there was some evidence of homosexual bonding (of the permenant variety).
Source, please? I'd be very interested in reading up on it. I have an open mind. If I see evidence that some animal species have members that permanently pair-bond with the same sex, then I am perfectly willing to modify my opinion.


What do you mean by 'normal'? If you mean 'most common', I see no reason to disagree. I do not see why whether or not something is 'normal' is relevent. It's not normal to win a gold medal at the Olympics...so what?
It is exactly relevent in that I was specifically responding to the oft made claim the homosexuality is normal. Notice that I have gone to length explaining that I was not making a value judgement.

why is it that its alright for you to proclaim what i say as plain wrong and it is so?

I'm offerring you the chance to provide a point of view, you're just giving me the pigheaded responce that a two year old gives when they get called a 'smelly head'.

you don't even consider what i say, where as i have taken into account everything you've written. You try to betlittle me because you don't like what i've written, why? Does that make you feel like a better person? It makes you look like a prick and a bully.

Source, please? I'd be very interested in reading up on it. I have an open mind. If I see evidence that some animal species have members that permanently pair-bond with the same sex, then I am perfectly willing to modify my opinion.

Cromotar and myself have presented two valid sources.

why is it that its alright for you to proclaim what i say as plain wrong and it is so?

I'm offerring you the chance to provide a point of view, you're just giving me the pigheaded responce that a two year old gives when they get called a 'smelly head'.

you don't even consider what i say, where as i have taken into account everything you've written. You try to betlittle me because you don't like what i've written, why? Does that make you feel like a better person? It makes you look like a prick and a bully.

You peddle so much nonsense I don't even want to deal with it anymore. Yes I'm a bully when it comes to my civil rights. I don't like being called mentally sick and being told that I can be fixed. I'm sorry but your point of view means little to me when it is biased, rude, and pigheaded. You are the one who gave a response a two year old would give. Additionally, you don't even know what you are talking about...

You don't consider what I have said. I went through the things you have said and I have found them to be outlandish and hurtful. In fact you were the one who seem like the bully by saying I could be fixed. The true prick is not me, but you.

Cromotar and myself have presented two valid sources.

If you only mentioned Homo sapiens you would have pwned and with a nifty little pun too. :D

Incorrect.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html



With the exception of the Penguin pair in the zoo, every animal mentioned in that article was involved in reproduction with the opposite sex at some point. Are you equating your sexuality to theirs? Is your homosexuality just a phase? Are you going to grow out of it, settle down with an opposite sex partner and start cranking out the kids someday?

With the exception of the Penguin pair in the zoo, every animal mentioned in that article was involved in reproduction with the opposite sex at some point. Are you equating your sexuality to theirs? Is your homosexuality just a phase? Are you going to grow out of it, settle down with an opposite sex partner and start cranking out the kids someday?

Good one on twisting the facts and the reality again! I'm not equating anything. You asked for acts of homosexual pairing in the animal kingdom (I now know you really are full of it).

More links:

http://www.tierramerica.net/2005/0226/iacentos2.shtml

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality#Homosexuality_in_animals

Homosexual behavior is common in the Animal Kingdom, especially in species closer to humans on the evolutionary scale, such as the great apes. Georgetown University has specifically theorized that homosexuality, at least in dolphins, is an evolutionary advantage that minimizes interspecies aggression, especially among males.

Male penguin couples have been documented to mate for life, build nests together, and to use a stone as a surrogate egg in nesting and brooding. In 2004, the Central Park Zoo in the United States replaced one male couple's stone with a fertile egg, which the couple then raised as their own offspring [4]. German and Japanese zoos have also reported homosexuality among their penguins. This phenomenon has also been reported at Kelly Tarlton's Aquarium in Auckland, New Zealand. [5]
Courtship, mounting, and full anal penetration between bulls is common among American bison. The Mandan nation Okipa festival concludes with a ceremonial enactment of this behavior, to "ensure the return of the buffalo in the coming season [6]." Also, mounting of one female by another is common among cattle. (See also, Freemartin. Freemartins occur because of clearly causal hormonal factors at work during gestation.)
Homosexuality in male sheep (found in 6– 10% of rams) is associated with variations in cerebral mass distribution and chemical activity. A study reported in endocrinology concluded that biological factors are in play; this study replicated similar findings in humans. It shows that approximately 10% of males are homosexual and that the brains of homosexual males are different. [7].

But gene-lines continue indefinately and that's what I clearly made reference to throughout. It's easy to cherry-pick a sentence and make a smart-ass remark. I do it all the time. ;)
Aha, easy and a cheap vicarious thrill...Aactually I only engage in such silliness when I percieve the point the person is actually making is baseless. For instance the notion that if homosexuality is genetic it must be caused by a gene is a fallacy.

Source, please? I'd be very interested in reading up on it. I have an open mind. If I see evidence that some animal species have members that permanently pair-bond with the same sex, then I am perfectly willing to modify my opinion.
I guess you were typing this when the others were posting, as there are several posts above that include the information you are interested in.



It is exactly relevent in that I was specifically responding to the oft made claim the homosexuality is normal. Notice that I have gone to length explaining that I was not making a value judgement.
Normal is not a very useful word since to some normal means 'common and average' and to others it means 'not outside the range of expected outcomes'. Certainly homosexuality does not fit in the earlier category, but I rather feel it does belong in the latter category.

The protestant point of view indeed. Wrong one for that matter. I knew I was gay when I was 15, and that's a fact. I did not get encouragement from anyone. Sorry, but you owe me two cents for that one.


At fifteen one is still at puberty, which means you are still growing and discovering your identity. It would have been too early for you to say: I'm homosexual. You may have had sexual fantasies with members of the same sex, but so have many, and many of those end up heterosexual. You did not get active encouragement, but who knows what your subconscious mind was receiving and accepting?


Wrong.

Right.

"you don't even know what you are talking about..."

thats all i needed, now i don't need to bother with you or this topic again, because you've just used the almightly shutdown. Well Done. I'm not gay so i will never understand, where as you are gay.

Your also a homosexual. I am not, i believe that god loves everyone just the same so you're not going to hell or anything. You are of course never going to share the love of a woman, and i feel for you, just as you don't care that i'd not have that with a man, and we both agree that neither wants the other.

So i'm offically washing my hands of this issue, you dont choose to be gay at all, you make that yourself when you're born. There is no choice because no one would want to be gay in this world and although i still think that something is fundementally wrong with you i dont think it will ever be fixed in your lifetime. One day it will be, in one way or another. We'll either all get along in a huge accepting gay thing, that'd take a serious backflip but it's possible, or people stop being gay...which would be a shame to actually be gay in that time cos you'd have to hide yourself away in a closet or something to avoid the persecution...oh wait, doesnt that sound familiar.

This issue is closed, and not by my hand but by that of creation itself. Make another one about the meaning of life, it's just as relevant and just as answerable.

Don't bother trying to reply to this, you're words will fall on deaf ears as i'm not heading back. You don't accept anyone elses point of view or the possibility for new ideas, just as i don't. I'll shake you're hand in an agreement in dissagreement if i didn't think you'd try and hit me, and i don't want to have to beat you up (not getting macho or anything but neither of us would come off well and no one wants that).

Have a good one in your lives, gay or straight, we all die and we'll all find out later what was right and wrong. I'll buy you a drink should i be proven wrong and we'll all toast to eternal life.

thats all i needed, now i don't need to bother with you or this topic again, because you've just used the almightly shutdown. Well Done. I'm not gay so i will never understand, where as you are gay.

Fine don't. I don't you understand at all.

Your also a homosexual. I am not, i believe that god loves everyone just the same so you're not going to hell or anything. You are of course never going to share the love of a woman, and i feel for you, just as you don't care that i'd not have that with a man, and we both agree that neither wants the other.

I don't believe in god, or hell, or heaven. I'm atheist. So I could care less. Why the hell would I want to share the love of a woman? You twisted individual? I can love a guy just as much if not more.

although i still think that something is fundementally wrong with you i dont think it will ever be fixed in your lifetime. One day it will be, in one way or another. We'll either all get along in a huge accepting gay thing, that'd take a serious backflip but it's possible, or people stop being gay...which would be a shame to actually be gay in that time cos you'd have to hide yourself away in a closet or something to avoid the persecution...oh wait, doesnt that sound familiar.

Go ahead and think it is wrong. And it won't ever be fixed. It won't be one day. It won't be fixed because it isn't a disease. People won't stop being gay. I don't know what is wrong with you.. and I don't want to find out. I guess it has to do with arrogance. Hopefully one day we will fix arrogance. Something that is truly wrong with this world. Homosexuality is not a disease, and is not something that can be fixed. The west will continue along the advancement of civil rights.


Don't bother trying to reply to this, you're words will fall on deaf ears as i'm not heading back. You don't accept anyone elses point of view or the possibility for new ideas, just as i don't. I'll shake you're hand in an agreement in dissagreement if i didn't think you'd try and hit me, and i don't want to have to beat you up (not getting macho or anything but neither of us would come off well and no one wants that).

I will reply to it because you won't get the last word. You will be addressed. And your points will not stand. I have talked and agreed to disagree with other people. I don't accept anyone else point of view because they usually peddle crap. I'm sorry but I won't accept someone who says homosexuality can be fixed.

You can't beat me up.

Have a good one in your lives, gay or straight, we all die and we'll all find out later what was right and wrong. I'll buy you a drink should i be proven wrong and we'll all toast to eternal life.

Oh please.

At fifteen one is still at puberty, which means you are still growing and discovering your identity. It would have been too early for you to say: I'm homosexual. You may have had sexual fantasies with members of the same sex, but so have many, and many of those end up heterosexual. You did not get active encouragement, but who knows what your subconscious mind was receiving and accepting?

I don't think so. I knew I was gay. I had no attraction to the opposite sex (never had). I had a gay relationship when I was 16 and that went on for nearly two years. You are peddling the wrong image.... but that's typical of a protestant who is narrow-minded.

Good one on twisting the facts and the reality again! I'm not equating anything. You asked for acts of homosexual pairing in the animal kingdom (I now know you really are full of it).

There's no reason for you to be a jack-ass. I said I have an open mind. I asked you to provide some sources and I find them to be interesting. I will do some research and will perhaps modify my opinion. I will do so not because you are arrogant and abusive, but because I really am interested. As of now, the two sources given are not completely persuasive because they are not perfect analogs to human sexuality. With the exception of the Penguins, the animals were bisexual in that they still participated in procreation. I asked about your sexuality for this specific reason. If you have no intention of ever reproducing, then the only parrallel I see in the sources given concerns the penguins. I had never seen the story about life-long male couples replacing the egg in their nest with a stone. This is fascinating. Of course, I could always say that birth-defects happen with animals too. But I won't take that tack because I at least am able to discuss something without turning into a complete twit.

There's no reason for you to be a jack-ass. I said I have an open mind. I asked you to provide some sources and I find them to be interesting. I will do some research and will perhaps modify my opinion. I will do so not because you are arrogant and abusive, but because I really am interested. As of now, the two sources given are not completely persuasive because they are not perfect analogs to human sexuality. With the exception of the Penguins, the animals were bisexual in that they still participated in procreation. I asked about your sexuality for this specific reason. If you have no intention of ever reproducing, then the only parrallel I see in the sources given concerns the penguins. I had never seen the story about life-long male couples replacing the egg in their nest with a stone. This is fascinating. Of course, I could always say that birth-defects happen with animals too. But I won't take that tack because I at least am able to discuss something without turning into a complete twit.

I provided some sources. You want to twist my words and turn things against me you will get my wraith. Now, just read the sources. Now you say they are not completely persuasive. You really are full of yourself. Get over it. You are not always right. My sources show there have been exclusive homosexual pairings. You don't even consider other facts in the source (homosexuality can actually be an advantage).

With the exception of the Penguin pair in the zoo, every animal mentioned in that article was involved in reproduction with the opposite sex at some point. Are you equating your sexuality to theirs? Is your homosexuality just a phase? Are you going to grow out of it, settle down with an opposite sex partner and start cranking out the kids someday?

Humans, unlike peguins, bisons, etc have a permanent "breeding season" commencing at adolescence at ending at death or menopause and is not triggered by seasons nor pheromonal response. Also unlike most other animals, humans have sex for reasons, instinctual or otherwise, aside for reproduction.

Humans are probably the only animal which conciously create offspring. As before it is driven by instinct or otherwise. For a gay person to decide one day to have kids or even marry (bond, unionize, whatever) someone of the opposite sex would seem just as valid as anyone else's lifestyle choice.

You can choose ours if you want but I think a heterosexual lifestyle is probably much easier for you, me, everyone but you may not like it too much. Even gay people get fed up with it. :)

I provided some sources. You want to twist my words and turn things against me you will get my wraith. Now, just read the sources. Now you say they are not completely persuasive. You really are full of yourself. Get over it. You are not always right. My sources show there have been exclusive homosexual pairings. You don't even consider other facts in the source (homosexuality can actually be an advantage).

You have a wraith?

I'm done with you. I took pains to express my thoughts in a non-judgemental non-confrontational way and you're just too big of an ass to discuss things rationally. You're not helping your cause, you're injuring it. Bye-Bye.

From what I can gather, it's a mix between personal prefrence, genetics, and biological structure. Homosexuality is found in nature outside of our meager existance. This is fact, take the less than sentient cows for example. Go to a rodeo, they will have a pen full of bulls and bulls only. Watch them carefully, most of the time you will see a bull mount another, even if briefly. There is also the ever so closer to human monkey. I'm not sure which variation of monkey it was, but one's society it was customary for male monks to greet each other in a homosexual fashion.

I do think scents has a lot to do with it aswell. For me, I like the smell of a woman whom keeps herself up. The smell itself can sometimes be sexually intoxicating, especially if she is in a turned-on state. The release of pheremones can drive a hetero/bi male(and perhaps homo/bi female) insane with lust. I would assume that in cases of homosexuality it's the same, seeing how as men we also release scents, even though the human sense of smell isn't so keen to always pick up on it.

The best answer I could have for you my friend is that somewhere in your devolopmental stages of life(even so early as four due to your physiological make up) your brain, albeit conscious or subconscious, decided that males were the attractive gender, and that females were not. I would assume the same goes for bisexuals, except they found both equally enticing. We all relate the release of pheremones to the view of the person we have, thusly stronger pheremones will cause us to be attracted in relation to the related types.

However, in some cases, there are people who just flat out choose to do something with the opposite/same sex, hoping to get a thrill out of doing something they aren't particularly sure about.

I hope this has given you a few ideas on my viewpoint on sexuality, I consider myself a pretty decent observer, though my view of homosexuals was sub-par until recently, I've come to terms that not all homosexuals are shameless flamers, wanting to turn a hetero gay. I myself, find men so very unnatractive, which is probably why I have issues with my looks.

I don't think so. I knew I was gay. I had no attraction to the opposite sex (never had). I had a gay relationship when I was 16 and that went on for nearly two years. You are peddling the wrong image.... but that's typical of a protestant who is narrow-minded.
One ends puberty at around 21. Before that you are growing, and therefore will be difficult to determine your sexuality. It is absolutely natural for teenagers to be interested sexually to other members of the same sex. If you jump right into these feelings then, yeah, you will become a homosexual. If you wait these feelings out and settle after you're 20, chances are you would become a heterosexual.

Puberty is all about growing and change and confusion. It is natural for teens to feel that they are homosexual, when, in fact, they are not.

I don't want to you to just say I'm wrong. I want you to offer proper counter arguments.

One ends puberty at around 21. Before that you are growing, and therefore will be difficult to determine your sexuality. It is absolutely natural for teenagers to be interested sexually to other members of the same sex. If you jump right into these feelings then, yeah, you will become a homosexual. If you wait these feelings out and settle after you're 20, chances are you would become a heterosexual.

Blah blah blah blah.. keep saying that even if you have no evidence. It is not difficult and it is determined. I'm sorry but I knew what I was. I didn't have any heterosexual feelings at all. So please stop trying to speak for me. Plus puberty isn't as simplistic as you think it is.

Typical. People know they are gay at that age and you cannot evade that FACT! IT IS DOCUMENTED! AND IS A FACT!

I don't want to you to just say I'm wrong. I want you to offer proper counter arguments.

You provide proper arguments. As far as I'm concerned you provided nothing, ever close to proper arguments.

You have a wraith?

I'm done with you. I took pains to express my thoughts in a non-judgemental non-confrontational way and you're just too big of an ass to discuss things rationally. You're not helping your cause, you're injuring it. Bye-Bye.

I'M HELPING MY CAUSE SO MUCH by countering people as yourself. You are the one who has issues with the facts and the evidence I provide. Then you go around and call it crap. I'm tired of it.

Blah blah blah blah.. keep saying that even if you have no evidence. It is not difficult and it is determined. I'm sorry but I knew what I was. I didn't have any heterosexual feelings at all. So please stop trying to speak for me. Plus puberty isn't as simplistic as you think it is.

Exactly. Puberty isn't as simple as I think it is. Therefore, determining one's sexuality at puberty would be "too simple". You believed you were, therefore you are. Were you at 15? Perhaps not. Will we be able to find out? No.


Typical. People know they are gay at that age and you cannot evade that FACT! IT IS DOCUMENTED! AND IS A FACT!
People don't know. People believe. You can't know your sexuality until you've passed puberty.

I guess you were typing this when the others were posting, as there are several posts above that include the information you are interested in.

Yes, that was exactly the case. Thanks for the info. I may now be in the process of modifying my opinion. When someone claims that "nobody ever changes their mind in internet forums" you can disagree. I am willing to change my mind when given new information.

Exactly. Puberty isn't as simple as I think it is. Therefore, determining one's sexuality at puberty would be "too simple". You believed you were, therefore you are. Were you at 15? Perhaps not. Will we be able to find out? No.

I determined my sexuality at puberty, buddy. You are taking this the wrong way. I knew I was gay at 15. I didn't believe anything. So hard to get through the christian mind...


People don't know. People believe. You can't know your sexuality until you've passed puberty.

Actually I do know and stop speaking for me. I don't fucking believe. I know.

I'M HELPING MY CAUSE SO MUCH by countering people as yourself. You are the one who has issues with the facts and the evidence I provide. Then you go around and call it crap. I'm tired of it.
I'm not entirely certain you are hurting any cause, but to be honest, I really do not see that your manner of engaging others is likely bring anyone around to your point of view.

Most people dont want to be ignorant, stupid, 'have issues' be insecure, immature, etc, and if you tell them that is what their current opinion is based on (or caused by), you are really saying to them that in order to change their opinion, they have to accept that they currently are ignorant, stupid, etc. Basically by insulting someone for holding their current opinion, you are motivating them to not change that opinion, since doing so requires them to think poorly of themselves, and most people just dont want to do that.

I'M HELPING MY CAUSE SO MUCH by countering people as yourself. You are the one who has issues with the facts and the evidence I provide. Then you go around and call it crap. I'm tired of it.

Okay... I'll meet you halfway. Homosexuality may be normal. But you're definately not.

:fluffle:

I'm not entirely certain you are hurting any cause, but to be honest, I really do not see that your manner of engaging others is likely bring anyone around to your point of view.

Most people dont want to be ignorant, stupid, 'have issues' be insecure, immature, etc, and if you tell them that is what their current opinion is based on (or caused by), you are really saying to them that in order to change their opinion, they have to accept that they currently are ignorant, stupid, etc. Basically by insulting someone for holding their current opinion, you are motivating them to not change that opinion, since doing so requires them to think poorly of themselves, and most people just dont want to do that.

I honestly thought he was taking what I said the wrong way.

I hope there is a cure for ignorance and arrogance. But when that happens there will be no more homophobia, hatred and thinking that homosexuality can be fixed. I'm not insulting them, but going after their opinion.

Okay... I'll meet you halfway. Homosexuality may be normal. But you're definately not.

:fluffle:

Actually I'm very normal. You are the one who is off the wall.

Actually I'm very normal. You are the one who is off the wall.

No. You are. So there.

No. You are. So there.

Oh shut up.

I'm normal.

One ends puberty at around 21. Before that you are growing, and therefore will be difficult to determine your sexuality. It is absolutely natural for teenagers to be interested sexually to other members of the same sex. If you jump right into these feelings then, yeah, you will become a homosexual. If you wait these feelings out and settle after you're 20, chances are you would become a heterosexual.

Puberty is all about growing and change and confusion. It is natural for teens to feel that they are homosexual, when, in fact, they are not.

I don't want to you to just say I'm wrong. I want you to offer proper counter arguments.

This is absolutely absurd. I knew at the age of 14 that I was gay. I *knew*. I have never in my life had any sexual attraction to a female.

Also, by your logic nearly everyone should be naturally bisexual, but are pressured by society to repress the urges toward the same sex. This doesn't seem entirely wholesome, either.

I determined my sexuality at puberty, buddy. You are taking this the wrong way. I knew I was gay at 15. I didn't believe anything. So hard to get through the christian mind...
Actually I do know and stop speaking for me. I don't fucking believe. I know.

Well, seems like there is a dis-consensus between us about the definition of "believe" and "know". Easily confused terms.

To "believe" something, that object/attribute/event may or may not be "true". To "know" something, that object/attribute/event has already been proven to be "true".

So, you couldn't have "known" yourself at the age of 15. In retrospect it may seem that you "know" yourself as a homosexual, but in fact you could only have "believed".

Of course, i need to iterate that the scenario I am building is a hypothetical situation, which is completely possible. It may not be the case for you, but I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about homosexuals in general.

I need to sleep, and all of you need to consider other people's points of view, whether you agree or disaggre, even if you think of them as stupid or not normal.

Well, seems like there is a dis-consensus between us about the definition of "believe" and "know". Easily confused terms.

To "believe" something, that object/attribute/event may or may not be "true". To "know" something, that object/attribute/event has already been proven to be "true".

So, you couldn't have "known" yourself at the age of 15. In retrospect it may seem that you "know" yourself as a homosexual, but in fact you could only have "believed".

Of course, i need to iterate that the scenario I am building is a hypothetical situation, which is completely possible. It may not be the case for you, but I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about homosexuals in general.

Totally absurd again. You are peddling the wrong kind of information. I know. I don't believe. I know I was gay and there is nothing to believe about that. I knew since I was 15. It is most certainly true. It isn't false. Stop trying to make me seem insecure about my sexuality. Yes, I did know at 15, so yes you are wrong. Unfortunate for yourself.. and your narrow mind.

Again I will reiterate, I didn't believe.. I knew... I knew solidly that I was gay at 15.

And you can't get into my mind either. So I'm going to stick by the facts and my position. Thank you very much. People can know that they are gay at 15. And there isn't anything you can do about that.. but you can keep pushing your misconceived views about puberty.

This is absolutely absurd. I knew at the age of 14 that I was gay. I *knew*. I have never in my life had any sexual attraction to a female.

Also, by your logic nearly everyone should be naturally bisexual, but are pressured by society to repress the urges toward the same sex. This doesn't seem entirely wholesome, either.

Well, you're proving my point. Teenagers know very little, consciously anyway, about the changes that is happening to your mind. You can have an interest towards the same sex when you're a teen - that is entirely natural. But if you rode out your feelings perhaps - PERHAPS you might have ended up as a heterosexual.

Not bisexual. I say we are all born with a desire to have sex; males, females, animals, children, whatever. Why is it not wholesome?

Well, here's my 2 cents.

In oll the years I've been around ( 35..23 if you eant ot go with sexually active) I have never once found a single male I would be attracted to, in any way. Sorry, but I guess that makes me a strait guy. Give my a woman 100% of the time. They may be bitchy, but hey, I know what I like.

Note here: I have nothing against homosexuals. I've known quite a few of them...they just don't interest me sexually.

Well, you're proving my point. Teenagers know very little, consciously anyway, about the changes that is happening to your mind. You can have an interest towards the same sex when you're a teen - that is entirely natural. But if you rode out your feelings perhaps - PERHAPS you might have ended up as a heterosexual.

Not bisexual. I say we are all born with a desire to have sex; males, females, animals, children, whatever. Why is it not wholesome?

Again false. Your views are not valid because they do not take into account I never had ANY attraction towards females. And teenagers very much realize what they are early in puberty. I do not believe it takes you until 21 (this is well documented that people realize early in puberty). They just know, they don't believe.

Totally absurd again. You are peddling the wrong kind of information. I know. I don't believe. I know I was gay and there is nothing to believe about that. I knew since I was 15. It is most certainly true. It isn't false. Stop trying to make me seem insecure about my sexuality. Yes, I did know at 15, so yes you are wrong. Unfortunate for yourself.. and your narrow mind.

Again I will reiterate, I didn't believe.. I knew... I knew solidly that I was gay at 15.

And you can't get into my mind either. So I'm going to stick by the facts and my position. Thank you very much. People can know that they are gay at 15. And there isn't anything you can do about that.. but you can keep pushing your misconceived views about puberty.
But if you agree that puberty is volatile, how can you be so sure about your sexuality at that volatile stage?

But if you agree that puberty is volatile, how can you be so sure about your sexuality at that volatile stage?

Keep peddling that.

I do not believe it is volatile. I also believe homosexuality is not a stage.

This is what I believe: Sexual orientation is determined very early in puberty.

Again false. Your views are not valid because they do not take into account I never had ANY attraction towards females. And teenagers very much realize what they are early in puberty. I do not believe it takes you until 21 (this is well documented that people realize early in puberty). They just know, they don't believe.

They feel, they think, and they believe they know. After believing for some while, they will be accustomed to.

They feel, they think, and they believe they know. After believing for some while, they will be accustomed to.

OMG. The typical christian view.. deny deny deny and twist what I said. They know. They don't believe. They know.

Keep peddling that.

I do not believe it is volatile. I also believe homosexuality is not a stage.

This is what I believe: Sexual orientation is determined very early in puberty.

Great. Although you have yet to provide any sort of structured argument. No need evidence. Just...an argument.

I can be waiting for that.

Cheerio!

Great. Although you have yet to provide any sort of structured argument. No need evidence. Just...an argument.

I can be waiting for that.

Cheerio!

Dude, you don't provide structured arguments, ever. You don't provide evidence, ever. You just provide rhetoric. I provide arguments with evidence and structure. You need to stop lying about me.

Well, you're proving my point. Teenagers know very little, consciously anyway, about the changes that is happening to your mind. You can have an interest towards the same sex when you're a teen - that is entirely natural. But if you rode out your feelings perhaps - PERHAPS you might have ended up as a heterosexual.

Not bisexual. I say we are all born with a desire to have sex; males, females, animals, children, whatever. Why is it not wholesome?

You make it sound like at the beginning we're somewhere in between, and somewhere along the line we make some irrevocable choice that cements our sexuality one way or another. Tell me: when did you make that choice?

Some people are only attracted to the other sex, some are attracted only to the same sex. Some (probably many more than we see) are attracted to both. I'm saying that a large part of the ones in the third category, and many in the second as well, are pressured by society to deny their feelings and live "normally". That pressure to live as someone you're not is unwholesome.

Actually I'm very normal. You are the one who is off the wall.

Then again, chatting on this forum? Normal?

Sorry, normal is that group of McDonalds scoffing, Britney Spares listening, Superbowl watching, GWB voting, ESPN viewing, SUV driving mainstream.

Sorry, if thats *normal*, I'm happy to be a freak on the outside; lord knows, I've seen people point out what is 'normal' - thank the lord I am not.

Sorry, normal is that group of McDonalds scoffing, Britney Spares listening, Superbowl watching, GWB voting, ESPN viewing, SUV driving mainstream.


Well if that is normal, I don't fall into it at all.

Great. Although you have yet to provide any sort of structured argument. No need evidence. Just...an argument.

I can be waiting for that.

Cheerio!

Oi, sunshine, sit down, shut up and listen to this bitter old queen.

I knew I was gay when I was 14; none of your taborine playing and regurgitating of words will change that; hell, why don't we analyse YOUR life; maybe if you 'stopped fucking' your girl for 5 minutes, then maybe you would have turned out gay? see, don't like it when dispersions are made about your sexuality.

Until you have gone through what WE have gone through and EXPERIENCED the emotions and changes that us gays have experienced, may I suggest that you keep your ill informed opinions to yourself.

We were gay then, we're gay now, and in till the day we die, we'll remain gay - stick to the facts.

Well if that is normal, I don't fall into it at all.

There are lots of things people claim as 'normal'.

Normal is a relative term; to a sports nut, it is normal to watch 5 hours of sport on the week end; for a car enthusiast, it is perfectly normal to stare at cars in magazines, and researching the technology used in them.

For people to go around claiming that they're normal, and no one else is, quite frankly, is pathetic.

Hey there,

Just to be clear, I'm a 16 year old straight male. My best friend for several years is bi-sexual, and a friend of mine in Canada is completely homosexual, so I know the 'gay' environment.

Personally I think being attracted to men is exactly the same as some guys like skinny girls, some guys like big girls etc. It's just another extension of that if you ask me.
I obviously don't have a problem with Homosexuals at all, like I said some of my best friends are gay. What does annoy me is Úber camp people, but that just gets on my nerves-not to the extent that I would become violent just because your camp though.
I don't know why people turn gay, from a biological position anyway, as far as I know it shouldn't be genetic. My personal opinion is that it is a choice you make, whether consciously or not, it is a decision. It has to be right? Your born with no idea's of what what, who's who and the difference between right and wrong etc. Then you have exposure to both males and females, and I think depending on your mind set you must take an interest (not nesceserily sexual) in one gender more than the other, which in some cases can lead to you shunning the opposite sex. I guess Freud's analysis of early life, though quite sickening could be used as an example really, just in opposites-but perhaps Freud didn't mention that because he was stronlgy against Homosexuals.
I also don't believe the idea that "everyone is a little bit gay deep down", because I have proven it wrong myself. I can not see myself ever kissing a guy, I've had a couple of drunk nights when I'v been approached by guys, but I have allways said no-not out of immature "Eurgh, your a man", but from the fact the girl standing behind him manages to distract me.
Anyway, thats my little theory. I might publish it and be famous...

DG aka Pablicosta

Given how some of the studies are pointing to deep rooted neurological differences, it's put my money on hormones in the early enviroment. From formation of egg and sperm onto neonatal development.

The absolutely indisputable fact that it exists throughout the animal kingdom, and all of human history, might be point to our evolutionary biology, and back to a time before distinct genders. Certainly our current understanding of the intricacies of gender is best described as incomplete. Clearly, its a spectrum of some sort with two very strong clusters at female-heterosexucal, and male-heterosexual.

If it's wiring primitive parts of the brain that respond to pheromones, I'm betting the change occurs well before puberty, and while it might not be genetic, doesn't involve much in the way of choice (beyond deciding to not imprision oneself in a spirit crushing delusion).

It's natural, there is a place for it, and while the sight of two guys kissing might turn my stomach (I suppose I shouldn't go out of my way to view it then) that's not *their* problem.

If it's wiring primitive parts of the brain that respond to pheromones, I'm betting the change occurs well before puberty, and while it might not be genetic...

Perhaps similar to temperature dependent, as opposed to "genetic" sex selection in alligator offspring. Hmmm....

Perhaps similar to temperature dependent, as opposed to "genetic" sex selection in alligator offspring. Hmmm....
I would guess it's definately a function of the kinetics of the chemistry. While temperature would certainly be a factor, I think the soup is complex enough that singling out any one factor is probably futile and the dye is cast through the subtlety of interactions. So much so, that I do not envision the day that sees the Washington Post printing, "Scientists Find Global Warming and Pesticides Cause Teh Gay: All Christians To Re-Register Under Green Party"

But there's a lot of room to be wrong, any guess that doesn't involve magic, or superheroes from the sky, is about as good as any other.

I choose to be heterosexual.

If I didn't, how could I justify that gays choose to be homosexual?

I would guess it's definately a function of the kinetics of the chemistry. ...

Possibly. The reptile connection was just something that occurred to me while reading a critique of the LeVay study.

I choose to be heterosexual.

If I didn't, how could I justify that gays choose to be homosexual?

Me thinks you're looking for justification of something else. :confused:

Oh, so nature intended males to be able to be able to reproduce by one shooting a load in the others butt ? (nature - sex - reproduction of the species) Then why females around ?

No, but nature developed in such a way that male-male and female-female sex can serve purposes other than reproduction, just as male-female sex serves these other purposes.

There is no justification whatsoever for the statement that the only purpose of sex is reproduction.

Meanwhile, there is a species of lizard where there are only females, but they copulate - in fact, they have to hump each other to cause reproduction.

What creatures only reproduce by have sex with same sex ?

Whiptail lizards.

Of course, you are still assuming that reproduction is the only purpose of sex, something that anyone with any understanding of biology whatsoever would dispute.

I was born as I am.

Guess what! Other people were born as they are too! Isn't it amazing?

All im saying, is dont cop out and say it wasnt a choice... good grief . ya chose to go against what is natural. Nothing really wrong with that. As long as you dont try to BS others it was natures intention.

If you don't think that nature "intended" for homosexual sex to exist, explain why it exists. Just to name a few species in which it exists:

Humans
Bonobos Chimps - Lesbian sex incredibly common
Gorrillas
Dolphins - only male-male pair-bonds formed
Elephants - only male-male pair-bonds formed
Giraffes - only male-male sex ever observed in the wild
Whales
Mice
Rats
Guinea Pigs
Squirrels
Dogs
Cats
Cattle - male-male sex used to obtain semen for fertilization of cows
Sheep - both homosexual and transsexual animals observed
Goats
Woodpeckers
Finches
Ducks
Geese
Swans


These are only the sample of animals I can name off the top of my head. As soon as you can explain how something that happens so often in nature is "unnatural", you may have a point.

Of course, even in your twisted view of nature - which calls nature itself "unnatural", I would not be "unnatural", as I am currently in a long term relationship with a member of the opposite sex. Sorry to break it to you, but you don't have to be homosexual to understand science. You should try it.

I choose to be heterosexual.

If I didn't, how could I justify that gays choose to be homosexual?
Oh I see. So you are attracted to the same sex, but you resist? Ah. What a choice. Oh wait...you choose NOT to be attracted to the same sex? How's that exactly? I find certain people attractive, period, and I can't do anything about it.

I believe sexuality whether heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, asexual and any other variant, is a choice.

So when did the sexuality fairy visit you and give you the choice to be attracted to males, females, both, or none?

What criteria did you use to make that choice?

So when did the sexuality fairy visit you and give you the choice to be attracted to males, females, both, or none?

What criteria did you use to make that choice?
I think the choice people are in heavy denial. For it to be a choice, we would have to start off being attracted to everyone, male or female, and then CHOOSE which group to continue being attracted to. So...you 'choice people'...what naughty things did you do with the same sex before you CHOSE to be het?

Even in those species that exhibit some of these traits, they are very intermittent - as in no permenant same-sex pair bonding.

This is completely and absolutely untrue. There are quite a few animals that have permanent same-sex pair bonds. They occur in many bird species, in elephants, in dolphins, and in humans (go figure). In fact, in elephants and dolphins, only homosexual pair-bonds occur.

Source, please? I'd be very interested in reading up on it. I have an open mind. If I see evidence that some animal species have members that permanently pair-bond with the same sex, then I am perfectly willing to modify my opinion.

A book called Biological Exuberence, by Bruce Baghemil, is a wonderful reference on sexual behavior in animals.

One ends puberty at around 21. Before that you are growing, and therefore will be difficult to determine your sexuality. It is absolutely natural for teenagers to be interested sexually to other members of the same sex. If you jump right into these feelings then, yeah, you will become a homosexual. If you wait these feelings out and settle after you're 20, chances are you would become a heterosexual.

Psychological research shows that sexuality seems to be determined long before puberty. In fact, it seems to be determined before one is out of the toddler stage.

Like all other psychological traits, sexual orientation is determined by a complex mix of both genetic factors and environmental factors including upbringing. It isnt a choice any more than preferring the taste of one fruit over another is. There is no indication that sexual prefference is any different from any other characteristic of a person's personality. People like to pretend it's special because of the special place society gives sex. Ultimately, however, it is just another aspect of your personality like all others. Psychiatry has pretty much settled the old nature vs nurture debate and neither side won, the current view is that both play an important role.

Nudge nudge.. nudge me a bit more, and I'll become a boxer.

I'm here to debate. I'm here to be sharp with my opinions. It is not a chioce to be gay. You need to gain a little common sense... I think you are lacking in that field.

Dont think so, I think people just need to quit the lie about it not being a choice to go against that which nature intended.

Nature brings life forth to reproduce, hence we have males and females.

Everything else is just hunky dory to me if it floats your boat. but dont lie about it.

"Why would anyone choose to be gay? So if it is a choice, does that mean you can change? I can't change. It isn't a choice. "

Its all about choice. Sure ya can. Heck, i could have been flattered by the sicko in the Bar BR instead of how i responded and gave him what he wanted.

But I chose to release my anger (which was actually at my wife atm) on him since he asked for it. Thats how simple it is. choice.

And I hate losing my temper. So that was a big choice

"Why would anyone choose to be gay? So if it is a choice, does that mean you can change? I can't change. It isn't a choice. "

Its all about choice. Sure ya can. Heck, i could have been flattered by the sicko in the Bar BR instead of how i responded and gave him what he wanted.

But I chose to release my anger (which was actually at my wife atm) on him since he asked for it. Thats how simple it is. choice.

And I hate losing my temper. So that was a big choice


you dont choose your sexuality, but you can choose to NOT act upon your sexuality.

I dont know what the hell are you talking about.

I dont know what the hell are you talking about.

My guess is he doesn't either.

"Why would anyone choose to be gay? So if it is a choice, does that mean you can change? I can't change. It isn't a choice. "

Its all about choice. Sure ya can. Heck, i could have been flattered by the sicko in the Bar BR instead of how i responded and gave him what he wanted.

But I chose to release my anger (which was actually at my wife atm) on him since he asked for it. Thats how simple it is. choice.

But you didn't make the choice not to be attracted to him - you simply weren't.

And he didn't make the choice to be attracted to you - he simply was.

There is certainly a choice in what you do about your attractions, but not in who you are attracted to. It is the attraction which defines sexual orientation.

Dont think so, I think people just need to quit the lie about it not being a choice to go against that which nature intended.

Nature brings life forth to reproduce, hence we have males and females.

Everything else is just hunky dory to me if it floats your boat. but dont lie about it.

You don't know what you are talking about. People don't choose to be gay. You need to quit lying about others. You can take your illogical nature intended so argument out of here. It just doesn't even fit the facts.

how do you explains animals who are gay?

do you think they go against nature?

I'm curious as to whether any other posters are aware of the data arising from Herdt's fieldwork among the 'Sambia', and if so what do they make of it with regards to sexuality?

I choose to be Hetero. I choose to chase after the female form. I am happy with my choice just as You are happy with your choice, and if you are not happy with it, then you can always change.

changing our nature is hard but it is what sets us above and apart from animals.

I choose to be Hetero. I choose to chase after the female form. I am happy with my choice just as You are happy with your choice, and if you are not happy with it, then you can always change.

changing our nature is hard but it is what sets us above and apart from animals.
:confused: Mmmm, actually we are animals, being an animal is a necessary condition for being human. Anything that is not an animal is not a human being...