NationStates Jolt Archive

Christians assume God to omniscient, omnipotent, and all loving correct?

Well then if that was the case why doesn't God simple create people whom have both free will and (by virtue of his omniscience ) will not be Hell bound?

For that matter could he not foreseen and prevent both the fall of Adam and Lucifer?

Doesn't God's absolute foreknowledge make the crucifixion a suicide?

Just asking.

If this turns into another 100+ page thread...

Hello.

congratulations you figured out that one of the major world religions is a load of crap, only half a dozen to go before you achieve enlightenment =)


but seriously it doesn't matter how stupid it seems to us, the fact is that it allows some people to live their lives better, its like having a shrink, I don't think it really helps, I think its one big placebo, but if it helps people or at least they think its helping them then let them be.

Watch the movie Constantine. It's cool.

Christian explanation: God did all that stuff for a reason, so things would turn out better in the end. [Me: Either that or he's a sadistic egomaniac. :p] Therefore, the crucifixion was good because it brought us redemption; hell was good because it created consequences for "not behaving" IRL, etc. etc. etc.

My explanation: I'd go farther.

Christians assume God to omniscient, omnipotent, and all loving correct?

Well then if that was the case why doesn't God simple create people whom have both free will and (by virtue of his omniscience ) will not be Hell bound?

For that matter could he not foreseen and prevent both the fall of Adam and Lucifer?

Doesn't God's absolute foreknowledge make the crucifixion a suicide?

Just asking.

1)Faith =|= logic.

2) Free will = the ability to choose one's actions. And people choose foolishly all the time. See: Jerry Springer Show, Montel Williams Show, Ricki Lake Show, Oprah Winfrey Show.....

Basically, our ability to choose (morally or immorally) separates us from mind controlled slaves.

Doesn't God's absolute foreknowledge make the crucifixion a suicide?

Just asking.
Well it wouldn’t make it anything as Jesus was god and god never died , though I have never been that impressed by Jesus’ death

God sacrificed himself … to himself when he was the only one requiring the sacrifice (that and he was essentially working with a net … in the end “dying” did not cost him anything but some time and a bit of undeserved pain … something a lot of people have gone through)

Well then if that was the case why doesn't God simple create people whom have both free will and (by virtue of his omniscience ) will not be Hell bound?

Hell was created for those who rebel against God. For humans to have free will means they have the option to rebel against God, which they chose. You cant have free will and make it impossible to sin.


Doesn't God's absolute foreknowledge make the crucifixion a suicide?

No because forknowledge does not exclude peoples responsablity. People always assume that because God has forknowledge then free will is not possible. It is. I choose what to do but God already knew I was going to choose it. But that doesnt mean I was forced to make that particular choice by God. As Stephen Hawking said when asked about predestination "are we predestined? Yes, but since we are not aware of it, it makes little diffrence".

I will comment this once by saying that all ideas and philosophies tend to operate on some assumption of worth. Narcissistic solipsism is the perfect philosophy when it comes to what can be proven. Which is why I say that we ignore God and become solipsists. You all do not exist!

Anyway, people do not follow religion because it is by necessity logical. They follow it because of faith or a need to believe in something other than themselves. Solipsism may be the ultimate philosophy(go solipsism!) but not enough people want to agree with it. I do admit that there are other atheist philosophies but few of them provide the things that religion does and none is superior to solipsism. :p

1)Faith =|= logic.

2) Free will = the ability to choose one's actions. And people choose foolishly all the time. See: Jerry Springer Show, Montel Williams Show, Ricki Lake Show, Oprah Winfrey Show.....

Basically, our ability to choose (morally or immorally) separates us from mind controlled slaves.

Sorry to play Devil's advocate here (well...no, I'm really not. I love doing this stuff in my Philosophy classes. :D ), but what if we actually don't have free will? Oh sure, we're always given options, but we can never 'rewind' our lives and choose the second or third choices, can we? If our destiny is truly predermined, than what are those other choices that we will not choose? Illusions created to give us a false sense of free will.

*coughs* Having said that, I'm actually for free will, myself. Just giving you something else to chew on.

You convinced me.

If Jesus is God and vice versa, and God impregnated Mary, doesn't that make Jesus a motherfu....nevermind.

This is post #13 in actuality

If Jesus is God and vice versa, and God impregnated Mary, doesn't that make Jesus a motherfu....nevermind.

This is post #13 in actuality

gee. I never thought of THAT.

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Watch the movie Constantine. It's cool.

I loved that movie.

Anyway. Human nature is faulty, and as such, many religions are faulty as well.

Answering your questions.

1. God created humans with free will. As such, it is their choice to be "saved" or not. Believe it or not, I'm willing to bet not everyone thinks Heaven will be their idea of paradise.

2. As for Adam and Eve, he also gave them free will. He told them not to eat the Fruit of Knowledge, but because he valued that free will so, he could not simply stop them. As for Lucifer, I believe at this point, he is God's opposite, but equal, and hence cannot be stopped.

3. Jesus Christ was supposedly the Son of God, but like all humans, he was instilled with free will. I think that he was given the choice of bearing the burden of our sins, and then accepted. I don't think it was a suicide, as he was more..."accepting" his death, than causing it.

If I may make a quote from the Matrix (another Keanu Reeves movie :P), "The problem is choice..." God may be omnipotent, but he is tempered by our free will, that He, in his "devine wisdom", has chosen to give us.

congratulations you figured out that one of the major world religions is a load of crap, only half a dozen to go before you achieve enlightenment =)


but seriously it doesn't matter how stupid it seems to us, the fact is that it allows some people to live their lives better, its like having a shrink, I don't think it really helps, I think its one big placebo, but if it helps people or at least they think its helping them then let them be.



:rolleyes:

1) Omnipotence is impossible because God would, at a minimum, be unable to limit his powers, e.g., make a stone he cannot lift; if he could make such a stone, then his inability to lift it would defeat his omnipotence;

2) God's omnipotence conflicts with his omniscience, because if God knows everything that is going to happen in advance, he cannot do anything in the present; he must simply watch the future unfold as previously foreseen, because changing anything would falsify his prior belief concerning the future;

3) God's omnipotence precludes him from having knowledge of any sensations or emotions associated with weakness, e.g., fear, frustration, despair, sickness, etc., and thus conflicts with him omniscience;

4) God's omniscience precludes him from having knowledge of any emotions associated with surprise or anticipation, and thus conflicts with itself;

5) God's omniscience conflicts with his disembodiedness, since a being without a body could not know how to drive, swim, or perform any activity associated with having a body;

6) God's omniscience conflicts with his omnibenevolence, since a morally perfect god could not have knowledge of feelings of hate, lust, or envy, or cruelty, etc..

7) God's omniscience and omnipotence conflict with his omnibenevolence, since a god who could prevent evil would do so unless he were unable to do so or unaware of the evil.
There you go.

logic is a human construct. it doesnt apply to religion

any religion

Christians assume God to omniscient, omnipotent, and all loving correct?

Well then if that was the case why doesn't God simple create people whom have both free will and (by virtue of his omniscience ) will not be Hell bound?

For that matter could he not foreseen and prevent both the fall of Adam and Lucifer?

Doesn't God's absolute foreknowledge make the crucifixion a suicide?

Just asking.

Jesus is burning in hell for our sins :(

I am not sure because I tend to view heaven as abstract. A person's soul is not the person only a reflection of who they were(or at least in my mind). Souls lack memories or personalities, if it were otherwise the soul would be altered everytime someone did brain surgery.

I think that hell is probably a place full of emptiness, hopelessness, and ultimately some amount of spiritual abuse. It would probably be like being raped over and over until you feel so weak and helpless that you overcome whatever sins bind you through the purgation that exists.

I also think that heaven is perfect bliss because there is only good things. Souls being souls do not reject the perfectness of heaven and feel at peace and fulfilled.

Really I think that both places defy the human brain to such a degree that we can only think of them as abstract places that lack physicallity. Also, I love your Matrix comments. :)

Hah, TIME WARP!!!

WOOOOOOOOOH TIME WARP!

*ahem*

Christians assume God to omniscient, omnipotent, and all loving correct? yes.
Well then if that was the case why doesn't God simple create people whom have both free will and (by virtue of his omniscience ) will not be Hell bound? he did. Man and god were close. it was the devil that seperated Man and God by causing man to disobey God.
For that matter could he not foreseen and prevent both the fall of Adam and Lucifer?Free will. to do so, would take away free will. With the presence of Lucifer, Man is now given a choice. Obey God's word or not. God will place opportunities to follow his word and Lucifer will place opportunities to fail. and it's man's choice as to which to follow.
Doesn't God's absolute foreknowledge make the crucifixion a suicide? Nope, it's a measure of God's love. Before the Crucifixion, if you wanted to be forgiven for your sins, you had to offer burnt offerings to God. a sacrifice. Jesus was the Sacrifice that God provided to be the "Last" sacrifice. After Jesus, all our sins are forgiven if we just ask for forgiveness.
Just asking.hope it helps and hope it stays polite. :)

logic is a human construct. it doesnt apply to religion

any religion

But, religion is a human contruct too! The belief in god or an intelligent design may not be, but religion most certainly is.

Believe it or not, I'm willing to bet not everyone thinks Heaven will be their idea of paradise.

I am not sure because I tend to view heaven as abstract. A person's soul is not the person only a reflection of who they were(or at least in my mind). Souls lack memories or personalities, if it were otherwise the soul would be altered everytime someone did brain surgery.

I think that hell is probably a place full of emptiness, hopelessness, and ultimately some amount of spiritual abuse. It would probably be like being raped over and over until you feel so weak and helpless that you overcome whatever sins bind you through the purgation that exists.

I also think that heaven is perfect bliss because there is only good things. Souls being souls do not reject the perfectness of heaven and feel at peace and fulfilled.

Really I think that both places defy the human brain to such a degree that we can only think of them as abstract places that lack physicallity. Also, I love your Matrix comments. :)

If God can't create a being with both free will and the impossibility of sin he is simply not omnipotent.


Hell was created for those who rebel against God. For humans to have free will means they have the option to rebel against God, which they chose. You cant have free will and make it impossible to sin.



No because forknowledge does not exclude peoples responsablity.No omniscience means exactly that God knows ever single choice you will ever make not only before you make it but before your great great (ad nausem) grandparents were concieved: ergo free will is an illiusion and the Damned and the saved are alread known to God. People always assume that because God has forknowledge then free will is not possible. EXACTLY!It is. I choose what to do but God already knew I was going to choose it. But that doesnt mean I was forced to make that particular choice by God.Ergo you have the illiusion of free will As Stephen Hawking said when asked about predestination "are we predestined? Yes, but since we are not aware of it, it makes little diffrence".Ah but is does, and only a cruel God would create people just to populate Hell.

If God can't create a being with both free will and the impossibility of sin he is simply not omnipotent.


Ah but is does, and only a cruel God would create people just to populate Hell.


Free will and impossibility of sin is a self-contradicting statement. Much like the "Can God create a rock he can't lift?" statement. It's simply invalid.

we can never 'rewind' our lives and choose the second or third choices, can we?

This is why people never get back together after a breakup, right? :p

Free will is not compatable with omniscience and omnipotence anyway.

Let us go back to time slice zero for a moment. When God said let there be light, when the image of the universe was a thought in God's head and the universe to be created was whatever God would imagine. God, being the all knowing being that he is knew the ultimate result of all actions that would be done in his universe. If he did not know he is not all knowing.

As the omnipotent creator, by creating the universe, he chose all actions for us. because, by creating a universe in which he knew all outcomes, he actualized all the choices we made into a definate future. This creates destiny, not free will. It follows then that every soul sent to hell was destined to go to hell. All the suffering in the world was God's choice, not man's. Lucifer? All God. We mortals never had a chance. We are as our creator made us.

Or at least, that is where logic leads us assuming God is indeed omnipotent, omniscient, and the creator.

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Um, no. Just someone with a different opinion than yours.

Hah, TIME WARP!!!

WOOOOOOOOOH TIME WARP!

*ahem*
DAMN YOU TIME WARP!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

This stinking time warp is the creation of the devil himself. The existence of pure evil in the world confirms my belief in an almighty God. I can not think of a better proof of the existence of pure good other than the existence of pure evil.

Ah.. but Religion is baised on Faith... and faith is most definitly not Logical.
to attempt to build a logical and infallable institution on something that isn't logical is like building your house on sand. Sure it'll look pretty... until it falls.

Religion is man made, the real argument is was god also man made.. we already know religion is.

If God knew Adam would fall why not use his omniscience and just create an Adam that would not fall.



yes.
he did. Man and god were close. it was the devil that seperated Man and God by causing man to disobey God.
Free will. to do so, would take away free will. With the presence of Lucifer, Man is now given a choice. Obey God's word or not. God will place opportunities to follow his word and Lucifer will place opportunities to fail. and it's man's choice as to which to follow.
Nope, it's a measure of God's love. Before the Crucifixion, if you wanted to be forgiven for your sins, you had to offer burnt offerings to God. a sacrifice. Jesus was the Sacrifice that God provided to be the "Last" sacrifice. After Jesus, all our sins are forgiven if we just ask for forgiveness.
hope it helps and hope it stays polite. :)

But, religion is a human contruct too! The belief in god or an intelligent design may not be, but religion most certainly is.Ah.. but Religion is baised on Faith... and faith is most definitly not Logical.
to attempt to build a logical and infallable institution on something that isn't logical is like building your house on sand. Sure it'll look pretty... until it falls.

Religion is man made, the real argument is was god also man made.. we already know religion is.



That statement is a bit too broad, after all Christianity was formed by Christ who was not man but divinity in a temporal avatar.

DAMN YOU TIME WARP!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

This stinking time warp is the creation of the devil himself. The existence of pure evil in the world confirms my belief in an almighty God. I can not think of a better proof of the existence of pure good other than the existence of pure evil.

Captain! We have a Space-Time Distortion right off the port bow!

AGHH!

And, thank you for your compliments... :p

Ok, am I the only one who is getting more than annoyed by this distortion in the space/time continuum?

Feels like someone is having too much fun with the system clock.

Ok, am I the only one who is getting more than annoyed by this distortion in the space/time continuum?
This feels like an episode of Futurama.

That statement is a bit too broad, after all Christianity was formed by Christ who was not man but divinity in a temporal avatar.

No the religion was formed by man AROUND a man who was divine

By that logic Islam is also not man made because Allah created it


The inspiration may be potentially divine but the religion itself is our construct

No the religion was formed by man AROUND a man who was divine

By that logic Islam is also not man made because Allah created it


The inspiration may be potentially divine but the religion itself is our construct


True true, it really depends on what aspects of the faith you are referring to. Christ, for instance, did establish the commemoration/Lord's Supper. Paul, Peter, and the other apostles, on the other hand, established other things. It depends on whether you are referring to the parts subsequent to Acts 11:26, or whether you include the disciples of Christ prior to their being called Christians.

Correct me if I am wrong, and I very well may be

Christianity is a false religion because:
If God created the world 5000ish years ago, and Christianity was just created (or re-emerged) 2000 years ago then there is about 3000 years of non-christian generations walking about. Now if these people did not know about God then wouldn't they be automatically doomed to hell? Thus would this not make God either a hypocrit because he did not really give the people free will, because in order to Go to heaven they would have to follow that faith and they were not given the choice: thus either a hyprocrit or a jerk.

If that does not work for some reasopn, then what about people wh olived in the jungle and never heard of such a thing as Christianity, God automatically doomed them to hell just because they were not in Europe, how on Earth would that substitute a loving God? Or an all powerfull God, because he was unable to send his influence they untill more than 1000 years after christianity emerged.

This is one point I have been juggling around in my head, if there is somehting inherently wrong with it just post an angry reply.

Correct me if I am wrong, and I very well may be

Christianity is a false religion because:
If God created the world 5000ish years ago, and Christianity was just created (or re-emerged) 2000 years ago then there is about 3000 years of non-christian generations walking about. Now if these people did not know about God then wouldn't they be automatically doomed to hell? Thus would this not make God either a hypocrit because he did not really give the people free will, because in order to Go to heaven they would have to follow that faith and they were not given the choice: thus either a hyprocrit or a jerk.

If that does not work for some reasopn, then what about people wh olived in the jungle and never heard of such a thing as Christianity, God automatically doomed them to hell just because they were not in Europe, how on Earth would that substitute a loving God? Or an all powerfull God, because he was unable to send his influence they untill more than 1000 years after christianity emerged.

This is one point I have been juggling around in my head, if there is somehting inherently wrong with it just post an angry reply.



To address your first concern, God had a basic system of morality prior to Mosaic Law which wasn't discussed that much. This system was what all the people other than Jews adhered to prior to Christ's unification of the Jews and the Gentiles under one final law. The Jews followed the Mosaic Law for the millenia spanning insitution of the Levitical methods and Christ's death upon the cross. This reformation of worship can be summed up in Acts 17:29-31


"Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man's design and skill. 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."




Now, for your second point concerning those who have not heard the gospel, there are many theories as to how it will work. One example would be that any individual truly seeking what is right will have the message revealed to her by a missionary or some other sort. Personally, I cannot read God's mind so I have no clue what way He has willed for those who seek righteousness, but we can assuming a truly loving God would provide them with an avenue to hear his gospel.

If God knew Adam would fall why not use his omniscience and just create an Adam that would not fall.he did. Adam was obediant. it took the serpent to taint God's work. to make man... faulty.

Christianity is built on faulty logic !
No shit Shirlock.

Correct me if I am wrong, and I very well may be

Christianity is a false religion because:
If God created the world 5000ish years ago, and Christianity was just created (or re-emerged) 2000 years ago then there is about 3000 years of non-christian generations walking about. Now if these people did not know about God then wouldn't they be automatically doomed to hell? yes... sad but true.
Thus would this not make God either a hypocrit because he did not really give the people free will, because in order to Go to heaven they would have to follow that faith and they were not given the choice: thus either a hyprocrit or a jerk. nope, God works with what he created and what of today? you're hearing God's word, and yet you turn away. thus you were given your chance, follow his will freely, or don't... and you chose. the fact that you can choose to call God a Hyprocrit shows you have free will.

If that does not work for some reasopn, then what about people wh olived in the jungle and never heard of such a thing as Christianity, God automatically doomed them to hell just because they were not in Europe, how on Earth would that substitute a loving God? That is why God command his people to "Go forth and Preach to ALL NATIONS."
Or an all powerfull God, because he was unable to send his influence they untill more than 1000 years after christianity emerged. so to you, if you have the power, you would use it. God shows his control by influencing the things in our lives without revealing himself. He wants us to be Willing Subject, not oppressed one.

now is the only way you will believe in God is a show of Force? Do you require that from the Police as well?

This is one point I have been juggling around in my head, if there is somehting inherently wrong with it just post an angry reply.
Sorry to disappoint you.. but I just can seem to work up an angry reply... will leave that to others. :rolleyes:

Christians assume God to omniscient, omnipotent, and all loving correct?

Well then if that was the case why doesn't God simple create people whom have both free will and (by virtue of his omniscience ) will not be Hell bound?

For that matter could he not foreseen and prevent both the fall of Adam and Lucifer?

Doesn't God's absolute foreknowledge make the crucifixion a suicide?

Just asking.
You know something? I think you and many of the others who feel so compelled to vociferously attack a religion which has done you no wrong, do so out of fear. Why are you so afraid of Christianity and Christians?

I noticed nobody ever attacks Buddhists. So I'm going to have to say it: "Buddhism is an offshoot of Hinduism, only Buddhism is for pansies."

god is all powerful and all seeing so why the hell would he invent angels and if I was god and lucifer was causing problems I would zap him into nonexistence and have a utopia for everybody. If you read the bible in depth you realise what a crock of shit it is


What would freak you out more, seeing an angel or seeing God himself? Or God in some odd form like a burning bush.

Angels are messengers, choirs, and will, if the Bible proves correct, be the ones actually pouring out the Judgements.

Angels are ALSO given free will, to an extent. Lucifer didn't 'just cause problems'. He questioned, wondered, wanted to know why, then decided that he could do better. And was proved wrong when he and his followers were cast from Heaven.

Also, if you read you'll realize the 'utopia for everybody' is in planning. Lucifer being 'zapped into nonexistence' is coming. Why we'd have to wait so long for it, only God himself knows.

edit: yay, timewarp.

god is all powerful and all seeing so why the hell would he invent angels and if I was god and lucifer was causing problems I would zap him into nonexistence and have a utopia for everybody. If you read the bible in depth you realise what a crock of shit it is
God does whatever the hell he wants to, logic doesn't have to apply to a OMNIPOTENT FUCKING BEING. I don't see why everyone always tries to logically see things that are beyond logic, it's like looking for Alpha Centauri through one of those telescopes your kid got at Burger King on Earth Day.

god is all powerful and all seeing so why the hell would he invent angels and if I was god and lucifer was causing problems I would zap him into nonexistence and have a utopia for everybody. If you read the bible in depth you realise what a crock of shit it is

You know something? I think you and many of the others who feel so compelled to vociferously attack a religion which has done you no wrong, do so out of fear. Why are you so afraid of Christianity and Christians?

Who says it has done me no wrong?

Aside from nuns beating me as a child no they are cool. Christianity above all other seems to be built on a silly premise. If God couldn't work out the design flaws in creation he's not much of a God or the Bible is just fairy stories, take your pick. I persoanlly think an all powerful God would be have better than the one in the Bible.


You know something? I think you and many of the others who feel so compelled to vociferously attack a religion which has done you no wrong, do so out of fear. Why are you so afraid of Christianity and Christians?

Ok, just want to point out to whoever said that satan was God's equal, satan cannot be God's equal. It's impossible. Why? Because God created Lucifer. Lucifer is a mere creation. And if he were God's equal do you really think he would still be suffering in hell right now? NO!! So he's not equal to God.

You know something? I think you and many of the others who feel so compelled to vociferously attack a religion which has done you no wrong, do so out of fear. Why are you so afraid of Christianity and Christians?

Or disgust, or hate, or anger, or resentment, or a misguided sence of superiority (as common among athiests or diests, sadly, as it is among members of any religion or unreligion, this cause may well be the most prevalent for attacks on religion), or a benevolent desire to show them the folly of their beliefs. I do not fear Christianity, yet I do not adhere to it, and willingly criticise it when the subject comes up. (And happily flame its least-enlightened adherants--fundies). Why?

Because I hate lies, deciet, half-truthes, hippocracy, repression of intellect, restriction of critical thinking, the mindless sheep-like state that comes to those who adhere strictly to Christianity's most sacred commandment--"have faith", not "look at the evidence, and see what you see".

Because I am enraged and disgusted by the coersive nature of people who tell the world "Believe in the creed I present, and you will be rewarded. Fail to do so, and you will burn for eternity." I hate emisaries from wealthy civilised nations going into backwaters where the people live stepped in superstition, and in stead of bringing the light of critical thought and science, bring a slightly different, slightly more refined superstition, and teach that in stead of mankind springing from rocks dropped by a god, that he was made out of clay by a different god.

And yes, I fear, but not Christianity. I fear what will happen to my country and other countries if blind faith, fundamentalism, and superstition is not supressed, and spreads its antiscientific methodology so far that we slip, beyond the point of no return, into a second dark age.

You have your answer.

*snip*

Seconded.

You know something? I think you and many of the others who feel so compelled to vociferously attack a religion which has done you no wrong, do so out of fear. Why are you so afraid of Christianity and Christians?



It's the popular thing to do these days. Iconoclasm is a fad, and all the cool kids do it. Same for Bush-bashing, America-hating, and half the openly-homosexual individuals in schools. They do it for the attention and to feel better about themselves. When they begin to learn that they aren't special and nobody cares, it generally ceases.

god is all powerful and all seeing so why the hell would he invent angels and if I was god and lucifer was causing problems I would zap him into nonexistence and have a utopia for everybody. If you read the bible in depth you realise what a crock of shit it is



I think this verse perfectly describes you: Matthew 13:13 13This is why I speak to them in parables:
"Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

<Snip> hippocracy <Snip>
Just out of curiousity, does this mean you hate people who dig Hippo's?

Free will and impossibility of sin is a self-contradicting statement.

By this statement did you mean that if you have free will you there is no way that sin wouldnt exist?

That doesn't sound like a God who want's every body to get the message.


I think this verse perfectly describes you: Matthew 13:13 13This is why I speak to them in parables:
"Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

By this statement did you mean that if you have free will you there is no way that sin wouldnt exist?


By that I meant you cannot have the inability to sin and free will concurrently.

Ok, just want to point out to whoever said that satan was God's equal, satan cannot be God's equal. It's impossible. Why? Because God created Lucifer. Lucifer is a mere creation. And if he were God's equal do you really think he would still be suffering in hell right now? NO!! So he's not equal to God.true.. but Lucifer saw himself better than God... biiig difference.

That doesn't sound like a God who want's every body to get the message.


It's describing those who refuse to understand because they don't want to.

By that I meant you cannot have the inability to sin and free will concurrently.
Nonsense. If free will is merely the rational ability to choose, having all good choices is not a limiter of free will.

By that I meant you cannot have the inability to sin and free will concurrently.

Okay with that answer in mind here is another question. Could Adam and Eve sin before they ate the apple?

Nonsense. If free will is merely the rational ability to choose, having all good choices is not a limiter of free will.



But the capacity to sin always exists, regardless of which choice you make. Besides, only Christ managed to have all good choices ;)

Okay with that answer in mind here is another question. Could Adam and Eve sin before they ate the apple?


Without the knowledge of good and evil, there was only one sin they knew of, and that was disobedience to God.

nope, God works with what he created and what of today? you're hearing God's word, and yet you turn away. thus you were given your chance, follow his will freely, or don't... and you chose. the fact that you can choose to call God a Hyprocrit shows you have free will.

I think you took that out of context.... wasnt I refering to people who were in the jungle and had no chance to be a christian and thus did not have free will to do so....

That is why God command his people to "Go forth and Preach to ALL NATIONS."
Even so, there is a few thousand year gap there where people were being sent to hell one by one, if he really loved all his people wouldnt he have told them through a vision or something that in order to go to heaven they have to eb christian?

so to you, if you have the power, you would use it. God shows his control by influencing the things in our lives without revealing himself. He wants us to be Willing Subject, not oppressed one.
So he would rather not show himsef and let millions of lives go to hell? Man if he was a super hero I would not count on him...

now is the only way you will believe in God is a show of Force? Do you require that from the Police as well?
Force would not be the only way, if he sent a Jesus down for Europe, then what was stoping him from doing something to let the Africans or NAtive Americans know that in order to go to heaven they need to be Christian?
In order to follow a law I need to know it exists!

Now, for your second point concerning those who have not heard the gospel, there are many theories as to how it will work. One example would be that any individual truly seeking what is right will have the message revealed to her by a missionary or some other sort. Personally, I cannot read God's mind so I have no clue what way He has willed for those who seek righteousness, but we can assuming a truly loving God would provide them with an avenue to hear his gospel.

He damn well better have, or else that would be very neglectfull. But there were no missionaries in Africa or America or any other such countries in 700 B.C. And if he did provide them with some sort of avenue, then wouldn't we also assume that it would have cought on? And I'm pretty sure that when missionaries did go to Africa and America they had to do some drastic converting which would imply that it did not catch on, which would infer that God never really did give them a chance thus dooming them to hell.

Alright ROUND TWO

P.S. I probably did the Quotes wrong....
(as in who the quote was from)

There can only be a capacity for sin if God creates the universe that way. Considering the one thing he had to do to create a universe without sin is to take the garden of Eden, relocate the bloody tree, and get Steve Irwin to remove any snakes; I don't think it would have been terribly difficult to create a world free of sin.

I choose what to do but God already knew I was going to choose it. But that doesnt mean I was forced to make that particular choice by God.

Hypothetical: I make a decision of one kind or another which ultimately results in my soul spending eternity in hell. God knew I would make this decision before I did, but took no steps to prevent me making it. Why was I less worthy of salvation before comitting this sin than you who will be saved are?

Sorry to play Devil's advocate here (well...no, I'm really not. I love doing this stuff in my Philosophy classes. :D ), but what if we actually don't have free will? Oh sure, we're always given options, but we can never 'rewind' our lives and choose the second or third choices, can we? If our destiny is truly predermined, than what are those other choices that we will not choose? Illusions created to give us a false sense of free will.


Actually we do have free will, and our destiny is not predetermined. The way I see it God saw the creation, life and the end of the Universe much like Bobby Fisher would see a game of chess. He doesn't know for sure exactly every move that the other player will make but his foresight allows him to plan for every possible move. Therefore in some games, Fisher could play out the entire game before it even began. In the same sense God has this foresight to see what will happen bassed on every one of our choices. He doesn't know where weather we will choose him or not but he can see what will happen either way based on what we choose.

Hypothetical: I make a decision of one kind or another which ultimately results in my soul spending eternity in hell. God knew I would make this decision before I did, but took no steps to prevent me making it. Why was I less worthy of salvation before comitting this sin than you who will be saved are?



If he interfered, it would no longer be free will. God does not want automatons, he desires those who truly love him and follow His will.

I noticed nobody ever attacks Buddhists. So I'm going to have to say it: "Buddhism is an offshoot of Hinduism, only Buddhism is for pansies."
And the response you'd get from the official Buddhist line would probably be "And?"

As for the Choice/Sin dealy, I could repost the burning house analogy that hasn't really been refuted in the Athiest Question thread, but I trust that since you all quite clearly want answers, you'll find it yourself.

... Won't you...? >_>

If he interfered, it would no longer be free will. God does not want automatons, he desires those who truly love him and follow His will.
He could come down and give advice to we poor mortals. It would be our choice whether or not to follow it, no?

He could come down and give advice to we poor mortals. It would be our choice whether or not to follow it, no?


We would be so terrified that nobody in his right mind would choose differently lol. It would no longer be an issue of loving God.

He could come down and give advice to we poor mortals. It would be our choice whether or not to follow it, no?

Funny that sounds familiar.

We would be so terrified that nobody in his right mind would choose differently lol. It would no longer be an issue of loving God.
As an omnipotent would we not only be afraid if God chose to take a form that made us afraid? After all, Adam and Eve were in the presence of God, heard instructions straight from the Lord's mouth, and still chose to disobey, correct?

He could come down and give advice to we poor mortals. It would be our choice whether or not to follow it, no?

Exactly - we're mortal, therefore we're fallible. God supposedly created us that way, so why punish us when we are just living the way he both made and allowed us to?

I see it as a parent saying "Yes, Timmy, you can take a cookie if you want one." Then, when Timmy takes a cookie, the parent picks him up and chucks him into the fire. It's the same thing; God said, "Yes, you can have free will and the capability to sin, but if you actually use that free will and stray from the path I've decided you should take, you're going to burn." WHy not occasionally come and show us the way, rather than assuming we'll know what this being beyond human understanding is thinking?

Exactly - we're mortal, therefore we're fallible. God supposedly created us that way, so why punish us when we are just living the way he both amde and allowed us to?

I see it as a parent saying "Yes, Timmy, you can take a cookie if you want one." Then, when Timmy takes a cookie, the parent picks him up and chucks him into the fire. It's the same thing; God said, "Yes, you can have free will and the capability to sin, but if you actually use that free will and stray from the path I've decided you should take, you're going to burn." WHy not occasionally come and show us the way, rather than assuming we'll know what this being beyond human understanding is thinking?

Actually a more apt analogy seeing as how he made us in a state of omniscience, his, not ours, would be forcing Timmy's hand into the cookie jar, forcing his fingers to close around it, and then throwing him into the fire I think.

Otherwise I quite agree with you. :p

Actually a more apt analogy seeing as how he made us in a state of omniscience, his, not ours, would be forcing Timmy's hand into the cookie jar, forcing his fingers to close around it, and then throwing him into the fire I think.

Otherwise I quite agree with you. :p

LOL. I'm not going to say whether I agree with the more extreme version - I don't want to get flamed, by either side ;)

WHy not occasionally come and show us the way, rather than assuming we'll know what this being beyond human understanding is thinking?

Well...He has given us the Bible. And He knows that we, as humans, have imperfections in teaching and preaching. Therefore, knowing that in human form we cannot comprehend what He has created, He allows for the imperfections. He doesn't condemn us by one false move. Anyone who dies and truly wants enlightenment will obtain it, because He understands that any human preaching won't be able to enwrap everything that He wishes to be done.

It's hard to convince those who aren't believers. After all, Christianity doesn't mean that we (Christians) have all the answers. It just means we're following the way to get to Heaven the way we believe that we do.

I'm a Christian. I'd figure I'd point that out.

I do believe that Christianity is a way to get to Heaven. I had my pastor tell me, though, we won't be sure what is right until we die. Due to his statement I believe that any religion besides Satanic Worshipers will obtain entrance into Heaven. After all, it's the same basic laws. Don't kill, no sexual immorality...It's just different ways to worship the same God. After all, we're all human and interpret His Divine self differently.

As an omnipotent would we not only be afraid if God chose to take a form that made us afraid? After all, Adam and Eve were in the presence of God, heard instructions straight from the Lord's mouth, and still chose to disobey, correct?



If everyone knew it was God, the fear of eternal punishment would outweigh their desires to sin. Thus, most individuals would not follow out of love but compulsion. As for Adam and Eve, they yielded to the deceptions of the serpent when he told them they would be equal to God. Their craving for power and knowledge induced their betrayal of God.

Well...He has given us the Bible. And He knows that we, as humans, have imperfections in teaching and preaching. Therefore, knowing that in human form we cannot comprehend what He has created, He allows for the imperfections. He doesn't condemn us by one false move. Anyone who dies and truly wants enlightenment will obtain it, because he understands that any human preaching won't be able to enwrap everything that he wishes to be done.

It's hard to convince those who aren't believers. After all, Christianity doesn't mean that we (Christians) have all the answers. It just means we're following the way to get to Heaven the way we believe that we do.

I'm a Christian. I'd figure I'd point that out.

I do believe that Christianity is a way to get to Heaven. I had my pastor tell me, though, we won't be sure what is right until we die. Due to his statement I believe that any religion besides Satanic Worshipers will obtain entrance into Heaven. After all, it's the same basic laws. Don't kill, no sexual immorality...It's just different ways to worship the same God. After all, we're all human and interpret His Divine self differently.


I'd accept the Bible as that guidance if it wasn't for the fact that it has been warped to suit the politcal intentions of those in power so many times. The obvious example is the King James edition. If God truly wants to guide us, he shouldn't send a message that he knows full well will have been twisted before we receive it. Einstein once said that God doesn't play dice; I don't think he plays Chinese Whispers, either.

EDIT: Also, you've got my complete and utter respect for being so secure in you're faith that you're willing to question it and allow others to criticise it. Nothing annoys me more than fundies (of any religion) who insist that theirs is the one and only way, and refuse to listen to logical arguments. I completely understand ignoring "ur gOd is teH SUcK", though ;)

Well...He has given us the Bible. And He knows that we, as humans, have imperfections in teaching and preaching. Therefore, knowing that in human form we cannot comprehend what He has created, He allows for the imperfections. He doesn't condemn us by one false move. Anyone who dies and truly wants enlightenment will obtain it, because He understands that any human preaching won't be able to enwrap everything that He wishes to be done.

It's hard to convince those who aren't believers. After all, Christianity doesn't mean that we (Christians) have all the answers. It just means we're following the way to get to Heaven the way we believe that we do.

I'm a Christian. I'd figure I'd point that out.

I do believe that Christianity is a way to get to Heaven. I had my pastor tell me, though, we won't be sure what is right until we die. Due to his statement I believe that any religion besides Satanic Worshipers will obtain entrance into Heaven. After all, it's the same basic laws. Don't kill, no sexual immorality...It's just different ways to worship the same God. After all, we're all human and interpret His Divine self differently.


Careful, Baha'ism and Christianity cannot coexist:

John 14:6 6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

I'd accept the Bible as that guidance if it wasn't for the fact that it has been warped to suit the politcal intentions of those in power so many times. The obvious example is the King James edition. If God truly wants to guide us, he shouldn't send a message that he knows full well will have been twisted before we receive it. Einstein once said that God doesn't play dice; I don't think he plays Chinese Whispers, either.
which is why prayer is sooo important.

Well...He has given us the Bible. And He knows that we, as humans, have imperfections in teaching and preaching. Therefore, knowing that in human form we cannot comprehend what He has created, He allows for the imperfections. He doesn't condemn us by one false move. Anyone who dies and truly wants enlightenment will obtain it, because He understands that any human preaching won't be able to enwrap everything that He wishes to be done.

It's hard to convince those who aren't believers. After all, Christianity doesn't mean that we (Christians) have all the answers. It just means we're following the way to get to Heaven the way we believe that we do.

I'm a Christian. I'd figure I'd point that out.

I do believe that Christianity is a way to get to Heaven. I had my pastor tell me, though, we won't be sure what is right until we die. Due to his statement I believe that any religion besides Satanic Worshipers will obtain entrance into Heaven. After all, it's the same basic laws. Don't kill, no sexual immorality...It's just different ways to worship the same God. After all, we're all human and interpret His Divine self differently.



Careful, Baha'ism and Christianity cannot coexist:

John 14:6 6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

If God truly wants to guide us, he shouldn't send a message that he knows full well will have been twisted before we receive it.

True...true. I'll agree with you there. But how can you explain something that is beyond human comprehension. God is beyond our comprehension, His intentions beyond our comprehension. Therefore, anything He gives as guidance will be able to be twisted by the Devil and by Sin. It isn't like the Bible is the only thing we have to go on. We can also be inspired by the Holy Spirit.

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. "

I know that also. I also believe in that with all my heart, which is why I follow Christianity. I just don't understand why there are other religions, and why there are so many of them. But, there are some things I'm willing to live without knowing. After all, I've given up death and the grave.

If everyone knew it was God, the fear of eternal punishment would outweigh their desires to sin. Thus, most individuals would not follow out of love but compulsion. As for Adam and Eve, they yielded to the deceptions of the serpent when he told them they would be equal to God. Their craving for power and knowledge induced their betrayal of God.

Okay, and would God showing up to give pointers once in awhile prevent the tempter Satan from working his influence again? By my scoring Satan is in the lead with 2-0 tempted of the two people I know of who had contact with both God and Satan.

Christians assume God to omniscient, omnipotent, and all loving correct?

Well then if that was the case why doesn't God simple create people whom have both free will and (by virtue of his omniscience ) will not be Hell bound?

For that matter could he not foreseen and prevent both the fall of Adam and Lucifer?

Doesn't God's absolute foreknowledge make the crucifixion a ?

Just asking.
AAAhhh yes...
God is supposed to be Omnipotent, Omnigenic, Omniscient, and Omnibenevolent.
Because then he would not be omnibenevolent. Benevolence has to incorporate justice. without justice he is not being loving by showing us our faults.

I'd accept the Bible as that guidance if it wasn't for the fact that it has been warped to suit the politcal intentions of those in power so many times. The obvious example is the King James edition. If God truly wants to guide us, he shouldn't send a message that he knows full well will have been twisted before we receive it. Einstein once said that God doesn't play dice; I don't think he plays Chinese Whispers, either.



Which is why everyone should learn Greek and Aramaic, so they can read the original texts that have been preserved.

Okay, and would God showing up to give pointers once in awhile prevent the tempter Satan from working his influence again? By my scoring Satan is in the lead with 2-0 tempted of the three people I know of who had contact with both God and Satan.



Once again, now that we have the knowledge of good and evil, who but a fool could honestly choose to disobey God if He manifested Himself? Faith is the method he chose to seperate the sheep from the goats.

Which is why everyone should learn Greek and Aramaic, so they can read the original texts that have been preserved.

Greek and Hebrew very few books were initially written in Aramaic. Most were translated so that those that didn't know Hebrew could read the Old Testament.

Surely Adam and Eve were smart enough to know they should obey God, and if they weren't, God could have made them that smart which makes the fact God punsihed them for being duped all the more interesting really.

Surely Adam and Eve were smart enough to know they should obey God, and if they weren't, God could have made them that smart which makes the fact God punsihed them for being duped all the more interesting really.

I wouldn't really say that they were duped. They knew that if they ate from the Tree they would know good and bad, just like God. They also knew that they weren't supposed to eat from the tree. It was human curiosity. God knew that it might happen, therefore he set up the fact that Jesus would die for our sins. Besides, if you had the choice of knowing good from bad...wouldn't you love to know it? It's like now if you wanted a more clearer understanding of the consequences of things you do.

True...true. I'll agree with you there. But how can you explain something that is beyond human comprehension. God is beyond our comprehension, His intentions beyond our comprehension. Therefore, anything He gives as guidance will be able to be twisted by the Devil and by Sin. It isn't like the Bible is the only thing we have to go on. We can also be inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Firstly, understand that I don't mean to cause offence in anything I say; if you look at the edit to my last post, you'll see my views on people such as yourself.

On that note...

When you say "We can also be inspired by the Holy Spirit", and somebody further up said "That's why prayer is so important", I'm forced to disagree. It may work for you; you may have felt God's presence; you may have had your prayers answered. I, however, spent the first 11 years of my conscious existance praying, and never felt anything. I was left feeling hollow, knowing that there was something beyond our perception but not being able to contact it even though I'd been told for years that if I prayed I would be answered. My faith vanished.

That changed when I was 14. In a Religious Education lesson, we undertook a meditation exercise. I was sceptical, but I gave it a chance, and it had a very profound effect on me. As our guided meditation drew to a close, we had been directed to a room with a statue in it, and we were told to look at the face of the statue. I can't describe what I saw very well, but in essence I saw the otherworldy presence that I had knew existed but had never touched. And it had taken my form. I realised then that this entity man has called 'God' and distanced from the world is in fact all around us; it is the lifeforce of the planet, of nature, of every living thing on this earth. Of course, I made the mistake of sharing this revelation of mine with my teacher. My Catholic teacher in a Catholic school. Essentially I was told I was wrong, and that I was a sinner because I was placing myself (I foolish told her the form the statue had taken) over God. My hatred of closed-minded people began there, and I'd imagine so did my intense dislike for organised religion.

But anyway, my point. You may call what I saw the Holy Spirit. You may not. You may say that I need to build on this by praying. Again, you may not. I say not. It opened my eyes to the world around me. I don't believe in a creator - logically it doesn't make sense, to me anyway - but I now recognise the beauty that is within everything and everybody. Every time I look at the natural world I'm reminded of that, and to me that's prayer. I'm not a non-believer as such; I just don't believe in a sentient, omniscient God.

Actually, I don't know what my point was anymore :S I'm half tempted not to post this now, but it seems a waste to have typed it up. So all I'll say is, I may attack your image of God and your religion, but please remember it's not an atack on you - it's just my way of gaining a deeper insight into the way other people view these things. I'll leave it at that.

I wouldn't really say that they were duped. They knew that if they ate from the Tree they would know good and bad, just like God. They also knew that they weren't supposed to eat from the tree. It was human curiosity. God knew that it might happen, therefore he set up the fact that Jesus would die for our sins. Besides, if you had the choice of knowing good from bad...wouldn't you love to know it? It's like now if you wanted a more clearer understanding of the consequences of things you do.

Of course I would, but as was the case here they were balancing the word of God against knowing it. My point with all this was is that sometimes personal desire can, and as was the case in the Biblical story, does weigh in over the word of God in the minds of men. That means that the idea that if God were to give advice every now and then that nobody would ever disobey is demonstrably false.

Surely Adam and Eve were smart enough to know they should obey God, and if they weren't, God could have made them that smart which makes the fact God punsihed them for being duped all the more interesting really.


They had enough intelligence to know it was wrong. The reason you sin is not important, the fact is, it is still sin. They craved knowledge and discernment, and they knew that God told them not to partake of the fruit of the tree, yet they did so anyway out of their sheer greed. They rejected God's will for their own selfish desires.

Which is why everyone should learn Greek and Aramaic, so they can read the original texts that have been preserved.

Why would God make his true message so hard to reach if he truly wanted us to learn it? Have you learnt ancient Greek and Aramaic and read the original texts? I assume not, as they were in Hebrew - not Aramaic - and if you'd tried to read them after learning Aramaic, you'd know that, because you wouldn't be able to read them. Apart from the Greek ones, obviously.

Why would God make his true message so hard to reach if he truly wanted us to learn it? Have you learnt ancient Greek and Aramaic and read the original texts? I assume not, as they were in Hebrew - not Aramaic - and if you'd tried to read them after learning Aramaic, you'd know that, because you wouldn't be able ot read them. Apart from the Greek ones, obviously.


If each person tries their hardest to understand God's word and accepts it no matter what impact it may have on their lives, then I believe God will show mercy on her. Those who have the intellect to do so need to learn the original languages, while those who don't should strive to come as close as they can. Whether we are given 10, 5, or 1 talents, we are to make use of what we have.


Edit: Oh, and Daniel and Ezra were written in Aramaic.

Firstly, understand that I don't mean to cause offence in anything I say; if you look at the edit to my last post, you'll see my views on people such as yourself.

On that note...

When you say "We can also be inspired by the Holy Spirit", and somebody further up said "That's why prayer is so important", I'm forced to disagree. It may work for you; you may have felt God's presence; you may have had your prayers answered. I, however, spent the first 11 years of my conscious existance praying, and never felt anything. I was left feeling hollow, knowing that there was something beyond our perception but not being able to contact it even though I'd been told for years that if I prayed I would be answered. My faith vanished.

That changed when I was 14. In a Religious Education lesson, we undertook a meditation exercise. I was sceptical, but I gave it a chance, and it had a very profound effect on me. As our guided meditation drew to a close, we had been directed to a room with a statue in it, and we were told to look at the face of the statue. I can't describe what I saw very well, but in essence I saw the otherworldy presence that I had knew existed but had never touched. And it had taken my form. I realised then that this entity man has called 'God' and distanced from the world is in fact all around us; it is the lifeforce of the planet, of nature, of every living thing on this earth. Of course, I made the mistake of sharing this revelation of mine with my teacher. My Catholic teacher in a Catholic school. Essentially I was told I was wrong, and that I was a sinner because I was placing myself (I foolish told her the form the statue had taken) over God. My hatred of closed-minded people began there, and I'd imagine so did my intense dislike for organised religion.

But anyway, my point. You may call what I saw the Holy Spirit. You may not. You may say that I need to build on this by praying. Again, you may not. I say not. It opened my eyes to the world around me. I don't believe in a creator - logically it doesn't make sense, to me anyway - but I now recognise the beauty that is within everything and everybody. Every time I look at the natural world I'm reminded of that, and to me that's prayer. I'm not a non-believer as such; I just don't believe in a sentient, omniscient God.

Actually, I don't know what my point was anymore :S I'm half tempted not to post this now, but it seems a waste to have typed it up. So all I'll say is, I may attack your image of God and your religion, but please remember it's not an atack on you - it's just my way of gaining a deeper insight into the way other people view these things. I'll leave it at that.

Don't worry, I'm all for those who have open minds. I'm also open-minded, and Christianity made the most sense for me. You made your choice, and I made mine. And I wouldn't say your vision was you placing yourself over God. God created us in His own image. If you had grown up in the Church, you would know that. I would say that it was your spirit letting an earthly form of yours know that God is there is in you and is something not to be afraid of. I mean, Catholics are pretty strict. In fact, most people in the Church are. Any church, for that matter. That's been the problem because religion is earthly based, but God isn't.

Anyway, so I wouldn't just dismiss religion because you encountered hatred or repulsion from the Church. So did Martin Luther when he told them that indulgences didn't work. :) I'd say that you're probably further at understanding God than most Christians who are there because they're forced to. I understand your decision not to believe in God, but I would also encourage you to further investigate by yourself. Don't do it through the Church. See what you find. I find that studying by myself helps more than going to church.

I think you took that out of context.... wasnt I refering to people who were in the jungle and had no chance to be a christian and thus did not have free will to do so....sorry I thought you were referring to all those who never had a chance to hear God's word.

Even so, there is a few thousand year gap there where people were being sent to hell one by one, if he really loved all his people wouldnt he have told them through a vision or something that in order to go to heaven they have to eb christian?Maybe he did. maybe he spoke to them and they tried to preach his word, but were killed by the local clergy... thus only in the middle east did it really take a foothold.

So he would rather not show himsef and let millions of lives go to hell? Man if he was a super hero I would not count on him... someone else made this argument... so what. he showed his power in the past... read the bible and read about the miracles... thousand years later, he again showed his power though his prophets... years later, he sent his son... after that there are instances of Miracles and now people debunk them... how many times does he have to show his power??? He shows his power now, what would be the response... Hollywood special effects... Hallucinations.... then what... next generation... "oh hum, If God wanted me to believe, He'll show himself..." It won't end.

Force would not be the only way, if he sent a Jesus down for Europe, then what was stoping him from doing something to let the Africans or NAtive Americans know that in order to go to heaven they need to be Christian?again, maybe he did "send" someone down. maybe he didn't. If someone were to dig deep enough they might find some story about a crazy/demon possesed man spouting some foolishness about one God.

In order to follow a law I need to know it exists!Read the Bible.

He damn well better have, or else that would be very neglectfull. But there were no missionaries in Africa or America or any other such countries in 700 B.C. And if he did provide them with some sort of avenue, then wouldn't we also assume that it would have cought on? And I'm pretty sure that when missionaries did go to Africa and America they had to do some drastic converting which would imply that it did not catch on, which would infer that God never really did give them a chance thus dooming them to hell.and just like here... people who tried to spread the word are ridiculed, told to shut up. so what might happen to God's first prophit to the Aztecs? probably had his heart cut out as sacrifice to their 'God'... the only ones who know are God and those people.

Alright ROUND TWO*Ding!*

P.S. I probably did the Quotes wrong....
(as in who the quote was from)Hit the Quote button at the bottom of the posts

Why would God make his true message so hard to reach if he truly wanted us to learn it?

Actually God has made his message quite easy to reach. Evident by the fact that the language changed in the middle of the Bible (Hebrew to Greek) why is that? Because that was the most common language of the subjects at the time of its writing. It is also easy to reach because of the fact that the Bible has been translated into so many different languages, yet any good students of the Bible will look up the original Greek/Hebrew text for a better understanding.

They had enough intelligence to know it was wrong. The reason you sin is not important, the fact is, it is still sin. They craved knowledge and discernment, and they knew that God told them not to partake of the fruit of the tree, yet they did so anyway out of their sheer greed. They rejected God's will for their own selfish desires.
Which is entirely my point. Even in the presence of God the almighty, people still chose sin over him. If he were to come down again and give advice, what is to stop the same thing from happening again?

If each person tries their hardest to understand God's word and accepts it no matter what impact it may have on their lives, then I believe God will show mercy on her. Those who have the intellect to do so need to learn the original languages, while those who don't should strive to come as close as they can. Whether we are given 10, 5, or 1 talents, we are to make use of what we have.

And what of those who have no oportunity to learn these languages?

I just don't agree that this message should be so hard to come by in its original, uncorrupted form (if there is such a thing - as I have said, man is fallible, and there is no guarantee that even the original texts are not flawed). I have no idea where I'd even begin to learn Ancient Hebrew to a level of expertise that would allow me to read original Bible texts and not misconstrue them. I simply canot justify to myself the belief that a supposed Paragon of Good (that is, God) would make it so difficult for so many people to hear His message, and punish those who cannot.

(Also note that when I say His message, I mean the original texts - as I've said, I put no stock in the current Bible texts, due to the way they have been corrupted).

Which is entirely my point. Even in the presence of God the almighty, people still chose sin over him. If he were to come down again and give advice, what is to stop the same thing from happening again?

UH correct me if im wrong but am I the only one that thinks Him coming again might not be to give us advice? Last time i checked, if He came again all was over here and we get to go Home.

Which is entirely my point. Even in the presence of God the almighty, people still chose sin over him. If he were to come down again and give advice, what is to stop the same thing from happening again?


I did say nobody on his right mind, not everyone ;)


Anyways, the incentive to follow a Being that undeniably manifested Himself would be so great that many more would follow him out of fear than out of love. To see who truly would want to do His will, he leaves it up to faith.

And what of those who have no oportunity to learn these languages?

I just don't agree that this message should be so hard to come by in its original, uncorrupted form (if there is such a thing - as I have said, man is fallible, and there is no guarantee that even the original texts are not flawed). I have no idea where I'd even begin to learn Ancient Hebrew to a level of expertise that would allow me to read original Bible texts and not misconstrue them. I simply canot justify to myself the belief that a supposed Paragon of Good (that is, God) would make it so difficult for so many people to hear His message, and punish those who cannot.

(Also note that when I say His message, I mean the original texts - as I've said, I put no stock in the current Bible texts, due to the way they have been corrupted).


Who's to say that the texts were corrupted? Perhaps He willed certain things to be changed? It was the only source of His word to so many people, so perhaps it was His intention?

Christians assume God to omniscient, omnipotent, and all loving correct?

Well then if that was the case why doesn't God simple create people whom have both free will and (by virtue of his omniscience ) will not be Hell bound?

For that matter could he not foreseen and prevent both the fall of Adam and Lucifer?

Doesn't God's absolute foreknowledge make the crucifixion a suicide?

Just asking.


Even if all of the answers to your questions were, "yes" (they are not all "yes"), you've haven't made the case for faulty logic.

Don't worry, I'm all for those who have open minds. I'm also open-minded, and Christianity made the most sense for me. You made your choice, and I made mine. And I wouldn't say your vision was you placing yourself over God. God created us in His own image. If you had grown up in the Church, you would know that. I would say that it was your spirit letting an earthly form of yours know that God is there is in you and is something not to be afraid of. I mean, Catholics are pretty strict. In fact, most people in the Church are. Any church, for that matter. That's been the problem because religion is earthly based, but God isn't.

Anyway, so I wouldn't just dismiss religion because you encountered hatred or repulsion from the Church. So did Martin Luther when he told them that indulgences didn't work. :) I'd say that you're probably further at understanding God than most Christians who are there because they're forced to. I understand your decision not to believe in God, but I would also encourage you to further investigate by yourself. Don't do it through the Church. See what you find. I find that studying by myself helps more than going to church.

I did grow up in the Church - from the age of 4 to 16 I attended Catholic schools and a Catholic church. It was the reactions to free-thinking and different opinions I encountered that turned me against Catholicism. It was my own explorations and thoughts that turned me away from Chritianity and Organised Religion as a whole. I think religion should be a personal thing, free of ceremony and rituals that serve only to distance us from God. As I said, I'm against Organised Religion - I am religious, I just do it my way :)

UH correct me if im wrong but am I the only one that thinks Him coming again might not be to give us advice? Last time i checked, if He came again all was over here and we get to go Home.

Yeah, you're right. But, when He does come again He will allow those to have a chance. Because there's the rapture, and for seven years the Devil will rule the Earth. After seven years the final judgement will begin and those who have finally converted will be saved and those who have still not learned will be condemned. After all, when the Devil rules it shall be Hell on Earth. Those of you who think it's bad now, just look at all the good that counteracts the evil. (To me, that's all the proof I need of just a Higher Being. Because, to me, if we're just animals, what right do we have in justifying any existance we have? Why have emotions? To me, they would get in the way of survival. But, I'm not an evolutionist. Correct me if I'm wrong. Even though I'm a creationist...)

I did grow up in the Church - from the age of 4 to 16 I attended Catholic schools and a Catholic church. It was the reactions to free-thinking and different opinions I encountered that turned me against Catholicism. It was my own explorations and thoughts that turned me away from Chritianity and Organised Religion as a whole. I think religion should be a personal thing, free of ceremony and rituals that serve only to distance us from God. As I said, I'm against Organised Religion - I am religious, I just do it my way

:) I'll pray for you, so that you may find whatever it is you're looking for. And, if you've already found it, I'll pray that you learn even more from it.

UH correct me if im wrong but am I the only one that thinks Him coming again might not be to give us advice? Last time i checked, if He came again all was over here and we get to go Home.
Biblically I believe that is correct but there is nothing to stop an omnipotent being from just coming to give advice if it wants to.

Anyways, the incentive to follow a Being that undeniably manifested Himself would be so great that many more would follow him out of fear than out of love. To see who truly would want to do His will, he leaves it up to faith. The problem with that approach is most people cannot figure out his will, who he is, or if there is a he at all in some cases. Not even Christians can agree completely on what he wants us to do.

Christians assume God to omniscient, omnipotent, and all loving correct?

Well then if that was the case why doesn't God simple create people whom have both free will and (by virtue of his omniscience ) will not be Hell bound?

For that matter could he not foreseen and prevent both the fall of Adam and Lucifer?

Doesn't God's absolute foreknowledge make the crucifixion a suicide?

Just asking.

God apparently did create people with free will, and they weren't Hellbound, but then they ate the fruit.

With the fall of both Adam and Lucifer, God is sort of depicted as a wise man that knows what will happen, but doesn't do anything about it. With Lucifer, probably was more shocked than anything (since Angels didn't have free will) and therefore the punishment was more severe. At least with humans we were promised salvation.

The answer for the third question depends on the denomination. But more or less, they will probably say that it had to be done to repent for the sins of humankind, while at the same time anointing Adam.

God apparently did create people with free will, and they weren't Hellbound, but then they ate the fruit.

With the fall of both Adam and Lucifer, God is sort of depicted as a wise man that knows what will happen, but doesn't do anything about it. With Lucifer, probably was more shocked than anything (since Angels didn't have free will) and therefore the punishment was more severe. At least with humans we were promised salvation.

The answer for the third question depends on the denomination. But more or less, they will probably say that it had to be done to repent for the sins of humankind, while at the same time anointing Adam.

Of course it's so simple God doesn't need us as slaves because it already made itself a race of them. Doh :p

:) I'll pray for you, so that you may find whatever it is you're looking for. And, if you've already found it, I'll pray that you learn even more from it.

I'm a long way from finding whatever it is I'm looking for - I haven't even really found the question yet. Luckily I've got a very good, very openminded friend (who happens to be a Christian) who I can talk about these things with. I'm a lot closer to understanding now than I was three years ago, though, and I'm a lot happier within myself because of it. If I do find my God, I'll let you know :)

Yeah, you're right. But, when He does come again He will allow those to have a chance. Because there's the rapture, and for seven years the Devil will rule the Earth. After seven years the final judgement will begin and those who have finally converted will be saved and those who have still not learned will be condemned. After all, when the Devil rules it shall be Hell on Earth. Those of you who think it's bad now, just look at all the good that counteracts the evil. (To me, that's all the proof I need of just a Higher Being. Because, to me, if we're just animals, what right do we have in justifying any existance we have? Why have emotions? To me, they would get in the way of survival. But, I'm not an evolutionist. Correct me if I'm wrong. Even though I'm a creationist...)

The concept of the pretribulation Rapture is fundamentally flawed. It has no basis in Scripture, and the assertion that the devil will rule the Earth afterwards until the Second Coming is also nonexistent in Scripture.

I did grow up in the Church - from the age of 4 to 16 I attended Catholic schools and a Catholic church. It was the reactions to free-thinking and different opinions I encountered that turned me against Catholicism. It was my own explorations and thoughts that turned me away from Chritianity and Organised Religion as a whole. I think religion should be a personal thing, free of ceremony and rituals that serve only to distance us from God. As I said, I'm against Organised Religion - I am religious, I just do it my way :)



This is why we should rely upon the wisdom of God instead of our own: Ours is fallible and finite. If, in one's own reasoning, one comes to a conclusion contrary to God's word, one has obviously faltered. I recommend you read 1 Corinthians 2. Oh, and Colossians 2:8

8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

Which is entirely my point. Even in the presence of God the almighty, people still chose sin over him. If he were to come down again and give advice, what is to stop the same thing from happening again?

Nothing. The point is that God gave us free will. We were designed in perfection, but free will also leaves us with the chance to step out of that perfection. Why free will? God wanted His creation to love him out of choice (true love, if you will) rather than compulsion, as Neo has already said. It's a necessary consequence of a greater good.

Let's assume that God does as you suggest and appear again, saying something along the lines of "Okay, peeps. I'm God. You're screwing up. Stop it.", then perform a few miracles just to prove that He really is who He claims to be, so there's absolutely no shadow of a doubt. That might work--and probably will--should we not have free will. However, after the initial reactions, and much like His appearances to multitudes of people in the Old Testament, people will once again slink into doubt and disobediance. It doesn't matter how real He makes himself out to be; because of free will there will always be those who choose not to love Him. When faced with a greater good, there will always be those who still cling to their carnal pleasures. Sad, but true.

God gives everyone the same chances. Everyone has the chance to understand that they are in sin, that He is a loving God--so loving in fact to have come down and taken our place in punishment for our sin--, and we are all welcome in His courts. Some, unfortunately, do not recognize Him and His ways, and would rather hold onto what they already have. It's something God knew of when He gave us freedom to choose, and it was a risk He took. Having some truly love Him rather than all bow complusary seems to be more worth it.

I'm a long way from finding whatever it is I'm looking for - I haven't even really found the question yet. Luckily I've got a very good, very openminded friend (who happens to be a Christian) who I can talk about these things with. I'm a lot closer to understanding now than I was three years ago, though, and I'm a lot happier within myself because of it. If I do find my God, I'll let you know

Please, do! And never be afraid to let people know what you think as long as you have examples to back yourself up. Never be one who just says stuff without examples. I don't think you're the person who is. Don't be afraid to ingage me in conversations. I love talking about this stuff.

All right, I'm out. My friend just got back from England. God bless!

Biblically I believe that is correct but there is nothing to stop an omnipotent being from just coming to give advice if it wants to.

The problem with that approach is most people cannot figure out his will, who he is, or if there is a he at all in some cases. Not even Christians can agree completely on what he wants us to do.



Just follow the Bible instead of the words of men and our own desires.

This is why we should rely upon the wisdom of God instead of our own: Ours is fallible and finite. If, in one's own reasoning, one comes to a conclusion contrary to God's word, one has obviously faltered. I recommend you read 1 Corinthians 2. Oh, and Colossians 2:8

8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

1 Corinthians 1-2:
When I came to you, brothers, proclaiming the mystery of God, I did not come with sublimity of words or of wisdom. (2) For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

I'm sorry, I may be being obtuse here, but I don't see how that's relevant. Are you telling me I shouldn't try to come to my own conclusions, instead relying on the words somebody wrote down millenia ago?

Just follow the Bible instead of the words of men and our own desires.

1 Corinthians 4:6- "...Do not go beyond what is written. Then you will not take pride in one man over against another."


The Bible tells you that.

Christians assume God to omniscient, omnipotent, and all loving correct?

Well then if that was the case why doesn't God simple create people whom have both free will and (by virtue of his omniscience ) will not be Hell bound?

For that matter could he not foreseen and prevent both the fall of Adam and Lucifer?

Doesn't God's absolute foreknowledge make the crucifixion a suicide?

Just asking.

I don't speak for everyone, I'm sure, but...

1. Correct.

2. I can't really understand the question because of your gramatical errors/typos. I think you're asking why an omnipotent God would create people who disobey him and go to Hell. The answer to that question is that God chose to physically demostrate he is just by sending those deserving to Hell and chose to physically demonstrate his mercy by forgiving all those who call on him, even though they would otherwise be condemned to Hell. I suppose you think that a loving God wouldn't create people just to send them to Hell... well, they if they're still rotten people, and they get their chance for redemption just like everyone else, and they still get what they ultimately deserve, I don't see the problem.

3. He could have and he did. He's the kind of guy who likes to back up his talk with actions. See #s 2 and 4. If he didn't allow the existence of evil, judgment on the wicked, or forgiveness of the humbled, and everyone was just good and spotless and perfect, maybe you would say, "yeah, he says he's all merciful and just and everything, but what has he ever done? it's not like anyone deserves punishment or anyone needs his forgiveness. I'll bet that if he was put to the test, he would (1) not forgive people who crossed him, (2) unwilling or unable to control people who did wrong, and (3) it's not like he would understand what we're going through anyway... we're just people."

4. That's a pretty stupid way of looking at it. God tells us that he loves us so much, he would die on the cross for us. And he chose to prove it. so :p

He does not give everyone the same chance. I do not believe for a second I have the same chance of getting the truth as someone who met Jesus face to face, was able to witness his miracles, and was able to question him first hand about God.

The Bible is part of the problem, not the solution. It is one of a plethora of Holy books all claiming to have the absolute truth. A cameo by god would go a long way to settle which religion is right and which are not.

He does not give everyone the same chance. I do not believe for a second I have the same chance of getting the truth as someone who met Jesus face to face, was able to witness his miracles, and was able to question him first hand about God.

The Bible is part of the problem, not the solution. It is one of a plethora of Holy books all claiming to have the absolute truth. A cameo by god would go a long way to settle which religion is right and which are not.

Seconded. What good does squabbling over a book do? "My Holy book is better than yours" is the same thing men have been fighting over for aeons, but in a different form. Namely, "My cock is bigger than yours!" ;)

Why would anybody follow a religion that gives an automatic strike just for being born...

1 Corinthians 1-2:
When I came to you, brothers, proclaiming the mystery of God, I did not come with sublimity of words or of wisdom. (2) For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

I'm sorry, I may be being obtuse here, but I don't see how that's relevant. Are you telling me I shouldn't try to come to my own conclusions, instead relying on the words somebody wrote down millenia ago?

The scriptures are believed to be divinely inspired. While God did not sit down and write it out, He guided its writers through the process. However, because it actually was man that physically wrote it--man that has a finite mind, perfectly capable of making mistakes--there's bound to be some blotches. Historical inaccuracies, mispelling of names, etc. However, I'm sure the deepest, underlying intent of what God wanted us to know was not corrupted. He wouldn't let that happen. History and all other mistakes found are, in essence, irrelevant. It's the "what am I supposed to know from this" and "what is it trying to tell me" bits of the Bible that matter, not how many days the Hebrews trecked through the Wilderness.

:) *gives cookie* You're doing a very good job with a decent and intelligent debate. I only hope that I'm giving the same.

Why would anybody follow a religion that gives an automatic strike just for being born...



Umm....what? Are you referring to original sin? If so, remember that not all of us are Catholic. 2 Chronicles has something to say about inherited sin:

2 Chronicles 25:4 4 Yet he did not put their sons to death, but acted in accordance with what is written in the Law, in the Book of Moses, where the LORD commanded: "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sins." [a]

Seconded. What good does squabbling over a book do? "My Holy book is better than yours" is the same thing men have been fighting over for aeons, but in a different form. Namely, "My cock is bigger than yours!" ;)



Because one book is the true word of God and the others are the words of men who were not inspired?

Why would anybody follow a religion that gives an automatic strike just for being born...

Commmon mistake in belief, at least from the Protestant point of view. It's not scriptural that babies are born with sin. It is, in my belief, that it is only once the child/adolescent/man realizes what sin is and what his choices are in right and wrong does s/he become accountable for their actions and the 'original sin' that was passed from their father and their father's father (and so on).

1 Corinthians 1-2:
When I came to you, brothers, proclaiming the mystery of God, I did not come with sublimity of words or of wisdom. (2) For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

I'm sorry, I may be being obtuse here, but I don't see how that's relevant. Are you telling me I shouldn't try to come to my own conclusions, instead relying on the words somebody wrote down millenia ago?



I'm saying you shouldn't rely on your own wisdom if it conflicts with God's. After all, who is always right?


Edit: Oh, and that was 1 Corinthians 1:2 you quoted, not the entire chapter of 1 Corinthians 2 :D

Because one book is the true word of God and the others are the words of men who were not inspired?

Indeed. And that book is the Quran. Or the Talmude. Or the King James Bible. Or the...

The scriptures are believed to be divinely inspired. While God did not sit down and write it out, He guided its writers through the process. However, because it actually was man that physically wrote it--man that has a finite mind, perfectly capable of making mistakes--there's bound to be some blotches. Historical inaccuracies, mispelling of names, etc. However, I'm sure the deepest, underlying intent of what God wanted us to know was not corrupted. He wouldn't let that happen. History and all other mistakes found are, in essence, irrelevant. It's the "what am I supposed to know from this" and "what is it trying to tell me" bits of the Bible that matter, not how many days the Hebrews trecked through the Wilderness.

:) *gives cookie* You're doing a very good job with a decent and intelligent debate. I only hope that I'm giving the same.

*munches cookie* Thanks :)

I agree, the overall message of the Bible will not have changed. The thing is, that's basic morals, and I don't need a book to tell me how to live morally (and hopefully neither do you ;)). What bothers me are the finer details - such as, as I (possibly mistakenly) believe the passage I was directed to says, saying that we shouldn't explore these things and come to a conclusion ourselves. If there were going to be people following me, I would rather have the man who thought for himself, weighed up all the available evidence and arguments, and yet still came back to me, rather than the man who followed me simply because I told him to.

Hopefully I'm still doing well :)

2 Chronicles 25:4 4 Yet he did not put their sons to death, but acted in accordance with what is written in the Law, in the Book of Moses, where the LORD commanded: "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sins." [a]

But it also says in Romans 5:19: "For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous."

Umm....what? Are you referring to original sin? If so, remember that not all of us are Catholic. 2 Chronicles has something to say about inherited sin:

2 Chronicles 25:4 4 Yet he did not put their sons to death, but acted in accordance with what is written in the Law, in the Book of Moses, where the LORD commanded: "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sins." [a]

Neo, I'd just like to say thank you for providing wisdom through scripture. You're an excellent debator.

*cookie for you*

Indeed. And that book is the Quran. Or the Talmude. Or the King James Bible. Or the...



I have several sources that show the bible's unrivaled veracity, but I'm kinda falling asleep from the loretabs I've taken for my broken toe..../doze

Neo, I'd just like to say thank you for providing wisdom through scripture. You're an excellent debator.

*cookie for you*



Yay!!!...*takes out the raisin* thanks :D

But it also says in Romans 5:19: "For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous."



Yeah...I'm kinda passing out here so I'm going to stop arguing while under the influence of loretabs lol...

Yeah...I'm kinda passing out here so I'm going to stop arguing while under the influence of loretabs lol...

What do you need them for?

Those can be pretty rough...I remember being on vicodin after having my wisdom teeth pulled. I was down for hours, figuratively and literally.

I'm saying you shouldn't rely on your own wisdom if it conflicts with God's. After all, who is always right?

But who, other than God Himself, is to say that God is always right? If He created everything, then He created the Serpent in Eden. He also, as we are told in the Bible, created Adam, and created Eve to serve Adam. And yet we know that women are not inferior as people to men simply for being women, even though that is the way we are told God created them. And if God created the Serpent, then he created Evil in all its shapes and forms. The capacity for and ability to sin were created by God. Surely, in hindsight, that was not the right thing to do?

(I apologise, BTW: I realise that that is one of my weaker arguments. It's not very well phrased, because I'm tired. But I know if I drop out of this thread now, when I come back tomorrow it'll be 200+ pages long ;) So I'll stick it out, and I ask you to forgive me if I get tetchy or incoherent :))

Edit: Oh, and that was 1 Corinthians 1:2 you quoted, not the entire chapter of 1 Corinthians 2 :D

Oops, my bad - I missread the post directing me to it, obviously. I'd say that ship has sailed now, though :)

Commmon mistake in belief, at least from the Protestant point of view. It's not scriptural that babies are born with sin. It is, in my belief, that it is only once the child/adolescent/man realizes what sin is and what his choices are in right and wrong does s/he become accountable for their actions and the 'original sin' that was passed from their father and their father's father (and so on).

Actually coming from a protestant point of view it is scriptual.

Psalm 51:5 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain
A Public Domain Bible KJV at Zondervan Zondervan

5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

or in the more current NIV version

Psalm 51:5 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
NIV at IBS International Bible Society NIV at Zondervan Zondervan

5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Well, I know I just recently jumped into the debate, but as tax free shopping for school is this weekend (one of the few good things about Texas), I'm going ahead of time to find what I need.

I'll come back soon enough. Just be sure to keep any heads from rolling, alright?

Ciao.

He does not give everyone the same chance. I do not believe for a second I have the same chance of getting the truth as someone who met Jesus face to face, was able to witness his miracles, and was able to question him first hand about God.

The Bible is part of the problem, not the solution. It is one of a plethora of Holy books all claiming to have the absolute truth. A cameo by god would go a long way to settle which religion is right and which are not.heh... think about it...

you hear of a nut claiming he's the son of God... Would you believe him? This nut is doing faith healing... would you follow him? he preforms miracles, would you follow him as the son of God?

Benny Hinn performed many miracles of healing. (and I experienced the POWER HE welded through Benny Hinn) yet people still test and try to debunk him, many bring forth his past mistakes and try to ruin his name. just as they did back in Jesus's day. they would rather a mass murder run free than Jesus. It wouldn't make a difference when you were born, skeptisism is skepticisim no matter what era.


and on a side note: I'm glad this hasn't devolved into flame wars or trolling. tho I probably just Jinxed it. (opens tub of cookies for all debators)

and on a side note: I'm glad this hasn't devolved into flame wars or trolling. tho I probably just Jinxed it. (opens tub of cookies for all debators)

I was just about to post that very same thing - this is the first religion thread I've seen that hasn't descended into petty name-calling. It's actually kinda died :S

*takes cookie*

I was just about to post that very same thing - this is the first religion thread I've seen that hasn't descended into petty name-calling. It's actually kinda died :S

*takes cookie*
actually I find General usually slows down about this time. People going to sleep and all...

and since my timezone is smack dab in the middle of the Pacific... :rolleyes:

actually I find General usually slows down about this time. People going to sleep and all...

and since my timezone is smack dab in the middle of the Pacific... :rolleyes:

Ahh, Ok. I've not been active on NS in a month or two, and certainly never at this time ofnight (it's 2:08 here) - I usually hang around livejournal and a couple of other sites round about now :rolleyes: But still, I think we're doing pretty well with the civility so far.


As entertaining as a good flame war would undoubtedly be

heh... think about it...

you hear of a nut claiming he's the son of God... Would you believe him? This nut is doing faith healing... would you follow him? he preforms miracles, would you follow him as the son of God?

Benny Hinn performed many miracles of healing. (and I experienced the POWER HE welded through Benny Hinn) yet people still test and try to debunk him, many bring forth his past mistakes and try to ruin his name. just as they did back in Jesus's day. they would rather a mass murder run free than Jesus. It wouldn't make a difference when you were born, skeptisism is skepticisim no matter what era.


and on a side note: I'm glad this hasn't devolved into flame wars or trolling. tho I probably just Jinxed it. (opens tub of cookies for all debators)


Perhaps, but let us consider the miracles God would be capable of if he came to Earth as opposed to Benny Hills minor healings. A total eclipse for the entire planet, 24 hour days at the equator, rearrange the stars in the sky, levitating mount everest over New York City, etc. A true omnipotent being would have little trouble demonstrating something that would put it the realm of the magical if not the divine.

Perhaps, but let us consider the miracles God would be capable of if he came to Earth as opposed to Benny Hills minor healings. A total eclipse for the entire planet, 24 hour days at the equator, rearrange the stars in the sky, levitating mount everest over New York City, etc. A true omnipotent being would have little trouble demonstrating something that would put it the realm of the magical if not the divine.

I believe the comparisson was with a modern-day Jesus, not God Himself coming to Earth. I never heard of Jesus rearranging the stars - was that in an episode that got cancelled? ;)

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http://www.l2g.to/negativland/u2/justsaybono.gif (http://www.elyrics.net/go/n/negativland-lyrics/christianity-is-stupid-lyrics/)

I believe the comparisson was with a modern-day Jesus, not God Himself coming to Earth. I never heard of Jesus rearranging the stars - was that in an episode that got cancelled? ;)
Maybe it was the equivalent of Jesus they were talking about, but I started that conversation and I wasn't. :p

Besides, Jesus could do all that and more if God gave him the power when he sent him.

If Communism is so good, why won't it let me get any sleep? Damned loudspeaker... ;)

Christians assume God to omniscient, omnipotent, and all loving correct?

Well then if that was the case why doesn't God simple create people whom have both free will and (by virtue of his omniscience ) will not be Hell bound?

For that matter could he not foreseen and prevent both the fall of Adam and Lucifer?

Doesn't God's absolute foreknowledge make the crucifixion a suicide?

Just asking.
I thought I'd stick my head in and say this.

1) He did, man just used his free will to make himself hellbound.

2) He did forsee it. But if he prevented it, it would have been taking away free will.

3) It could be called that, but I think it's more of a self-sacrifice. Like if someone took a bullet for someone else, that would also be called suicide/attempted suicide by your definition.

Maybe it was the equivalent of Jesus they were talking about, but I started that conversation and I wasn't. :p

Besides, Jesus could do all that and more if God gave him the power when he sent him.

Touche :)

Nah, I agree with you - like I said, I don't go for the whole creator thing. It's just fun switching sides occasionally ;) (That, and I always forget to look at who made the post I'm replying to).

It would be kinda fun to see Orion do a dance across the Plough, though :p

I noticed nobody ever attacks Buddhists. So I'm going to have to say it: "Buddhism is an offshoot of Hinduism, only Buddhism is for pansies."

Buddhism also isn't technically a religion; it's a way of life. In fact, the people who practice Buddhism usually adopt an official religion.

I.e. I have 2 Japanese friends that are both Buddhists, both are also Christians.

If you didn’t mean it to be taken as a religion, my apologies.

Correction... Benny Hill is a commedian who performs with half naked women :p
Perhaps, but let us consider the miracles God would be capable of if he came to Earth as opposed to Benny Hinn's minor healings. A total eclipse for the entire planet, 24 hour days at the equator, rearrange the stars in the sky, levitating mount everest over New York City, etc. A true omnipotent being would have little trouble demonstrating something that would put it the realm of the magical if not the divine.there are miracles happening now. yet people will believe only what they want to believe.

and you call healing "Minor?" if you won't believe in healings, what makes you believe anything else?

There are records of many miracles happening available on the web. sorry if I don't link to them but the one that sticks out is the Lady of Fatima.

Most of her predictions are true, and the Catholic Church still has to reveal her last "secret"

Correction... Benny Hill is a commedian who performs with half naked women :p Yeah, and they say laughter is the best medicine. :p


there are miracles happening now. yet people will believe only what they want to believe. True, and you don't think people will want to believe in ever lasting paradise when faces with near certain proof of it's existance?

and you call healing "Minor?" if you won't believe in healings, what makes you believe anything else? Any of the things I mentioned above? Something that it is impossible for humans to do. Humans have been healing on their own for a very long time.

There are records of many miracles happening available on the web. sorry if I don't link to them but the one that sticks out is the Lady of Fatima. As I recall that was a hoax.

Most of her predictions are true, and the Catholic Church still has to reveal her last "secret"
Again, as I recall most of her predictions are quite vague in the same way Nostradamaus still gains support. The fact they don't release any of these supposed secrets until later is good evidence in itself they aren't real. Saying Russia will spread bad ideas to the world is about as vague as one can get, and yes, that is one of the prophecies, not to mention it was made during the Russian revolution.

Originally Posted by Unspeakable
Christians assume God to omniscient, omnipotent, and all loving correct?

Well then if that was the case why doesn't God simple create people whom have both free will and (by virtue of his omniscience ) will not be Hell bound?

For that matter could he not foreseen and prevent both the fall of Adam and Lucifer?

Doesn't God's absolute foreknowledge make the crucifixion a suicide?

Just asking.
*points to above* I am getting sick of the christianity bashing, I'll answer the questions
God IS omniscient, omnipotent and all loving. God gave people free will and choice to test them to see if they were worthy of gaining entrance into heaven, he did forsee the fall of adam and lucifer and he has it all planned out, what really sickens me is all these people whimpering: "Well if god does exist then he wouldn't have let my girlfriend leave me, or let cancer be invented or all this other bad stuff." <--- Get a grip! If someone dies they die for a reason, because it is in god's plan, if you can't deal with that then find so counselling! If you're girlfriend leaves you then she leaves you so deal with it! God sent down jesus to save sinners, to save every single one of us who believe and actually care. Any comments on what I have just said? You want me to back it all up? Read the bible because it is all in there in black and white. The rest is faith which is something that the person who posted the first post seems to have a large lack of.

Sigh, I hate it when people randomly target Christians because thye dont like them. Criticize someone else, maybe the Hindus, theyre due.

To answer your questions, allow everyone into heaven, and there is no purpose to do good in life. God doesnt control all human actions, and as Im starting to believe any actions, as doing so makes living a formality.

Lets start here, everyone has free will, thus the impetus to sin is present. Think as this life as a qulaifying round for the true life of heaven, do good, and you go up a level.

If youve ever read Paradise Lost, the son volunteers to save man through his death. Jesus is separet from and part of the whole and therefore its semi-suicide.

People love to drag down Christianity because they believe it to be the most oppressive religion. It has bad people in it, as do all religions, but those that truly follow the word of Christ, and forgive and do not exclude are usually good people. Please give us Christians a break, bug the wiccans for a while.

Oh, and also according to Paradise lost, god did forsee the fall of lucifer and the first humans. Of course, creationism is bunk, everyone knows that.

The problem is most other religions don't seem to get shoved down peoples throats or dictate to morality and legislation in Western nations anywhere near what Christianity does...maybe if I was living in the Middle East and having Islam shoved in my face left right and centre, I would complain about Islam more often...

Oh, and also according to Paradise lost, god did forsee the fall of lucifer and the first humans. Of course, creationism is bunk, everyone knows that.



Let's remember, though, that, while a GREAT epic poem, "Paradise Lost" does not have biblical foundation.

The problem is most other religions don't seem to get shoved down peoples throats or dictate to morality and legislation in Western nations anywhere near what Christianity does...maybe if I was living in the Middle East and having Islam shoved in my face left right and centre, I would complain about Islam more often...



How do you think we feel with atheists and secularists trying to force our society to become less hospitable to the Christian way of life? It's not you alone who feel oppressed. Many of us want a strict Christian nation.

How do you think we feel with atheists and secularists trying to force our society to become less hospitable to the Christian way of life? It's not you alone who feel oppressed. Many of us want a strict Christian nation.

As long as it doesn't turn in to another sham like the HRE or the Byzantines, that wouldn't be too bad. Of course, that raises the question of which version of Christianity is used...Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox or Protestantism (lumping the various denominations together)?

As long as it doesn't turn in to another sham like the HRE or the Byzantines, that wouldn't be too bad. Of course, that raises the question of which version of Christianity is used...Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox or Protestantism (lumping the various denominations together)?



It couldn't be too assuming, as the Bible has a lot of scriptures open to interpretation. Perhaps just Christian in general, but something that would not be counterproductive to leading a Godly life.

How do you think we feel with atheists and secularists trying to force our society to become less hospitable to the Christian way of life? It's not you alone who feel oppressed. Many of us want a strict Christian nation.
Maybe you should all chip in and buy an island - call it Godtopia? :p

...AFAIK, I am very glad to live in a society that is primarily secular. most examples of theocracies (like the Taliban etc.) are NOT places where I would chose to live.

Besides which, I get annoyed at this implication (not necessarily by you) that you cannot have a moral society unless it is based on religious morals. Most athiests, agnostics and other non-organised-religion types manage to have a moral code without basing it on the writings of some tribesman from two millenia ago, thank you very much.

Maybe you should all chip in and buy an island - call it Godtopia? :p

...AFAIK, I am very glad to live in a society that is primarily secular. most examples of theocracies (like the Taliban etc.) are NOT places where I would chose to live.

Besides which, I get annoyed at this implication (not necessarily by you) that you cannot have a moral society unless it is based on religious morals. Most athiests, agnostics and other non-organised-religion types manage to have a moral code without basing it on the writings of some tribesman from two millenia ago, thank you very much.


What percentage of Americans are atheist? Like 5%? Lol, it wouldn't be very fair if we all got crammed onto a tiny island and you all had like 100 square miles of property per person ;)

Right on! Christianity is not forced upon anymore or less than any other religion.

What percentage of Americans are atheist? Like 5%? Lol, it wouldn't be very fair if we all got crammed onto a tiny island and you all had like 100 square miles of property per person ;)

For reference:

In the US, there are 902,000 atheists, 991,000 agnostics, 49,000 humanists, 53,000 secular, and 27,486,000 nonreligious.

i did not read the last 12 pages so, sorry if some one elce has said this already, if you want to really understand christianity pick up a bible and read it cover to cover...it will answer alot of you questions

Right on! Christianity is not forced upon anymore or less than any other religion.
Hmm, funny, I've never had anyone of any other religion knock on my door to discuss it with me, shove pamphlets at me on the street (except maybe Scientologists - half the time I can't tell them and Born Again fundies apart anyway :p), put literature in my letter box, or leave their holy book in my hotel room draw...

i did not read the last 12 pages so, sorry if some one elce has said this already, if you want to really understand christianity pick up a bible and read it cover to cover...it will answer alot of you questions


Yeah, if more people actually read it it would make my life so much easier :D

Hmm, funny, I've never had anyone of any other religion knock on my door to discuss it with me, shove pamphlets at me on the street (except maybe Scientologists - half the time I can't tell them and Born Again fundies apart anyway :p), put literature in my letter box, or leave their holy book in my hotel room draw...


It's your choice whether to read it or not, isn't it?

Indeed. If more people read it and then followed it up with all the other holy books, followed by the ancient myths the stories are based off of, we would put a stop to superstition for good. :p

Hmm, funny, I've never had anyone of any other religion knock on my door to discuss it with me, shove pamphlets at me on the street (except maybe Scientologists - half the time I can't tell them and Born Again fundies apart anyway :p), put literature in my letter box, or leave their holy book in my hotel room draw...

I'd rather have them knocking on my door to discuss it with me; it's much better than being killed in the Middle East for being an unbeliever. At least you can ignore them and not have to worry about some kind of religious police battering down your door and arresting you.

What percentage of Americans are atheist? Like 5%? Lol, it wouldn't be very fair if we all got crammed onto a tiny island and you all had like 100 square miles of property per person ;)
Yeah, 5% if the poll was conducted in your church :rolleyes: ...not to mention agnostics, pagans, Ismalic, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, etc. etc. etc.

if you read your histiory judo-christianity is the oldist continuos religon in the world...every thing elce is a spin off

Yeah, 5% if the poll was conducted in your church :rolleyes: ...not to mention agnostics, pagans, Ismalic, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, etc. etc. etc.


Still, Christians (or at least culturally Christian people) comprise the majority of this country. It's kind of odd when the minority tramples upon the majority :rolleyes:

if you read your histiory judo-christianity is the oldist continuos religon in the world...every thing elce is a spin off


To be just a bit more specific, it's the oldest major continuous religion in the world. There, now your statement is immune to Zoroastrians and pagans :D

It's your choice whether to read it or not, isn't it?
You're missing the point - Christianty is pushed on people more in Western Society than any other denomination. Sure I can shoose not to read (and do so), but I could certainly do without having my routine at home interrupted by doorknockers or my walk though the streets interrupted by pamphlet wavers.

And then, of course, there are the Christian interest groups who exert pressure on law and policy makers, not to mention that the "most powerful man in the world", The Dubbya, is a fire-n-brimstone good ole boy hisself...

Can you name me instances of athiests pushing their beliefs on you, or athiest interest groups influencing the government? Even if you can, I'd bet you I could name the reverse tenfold...

I'm sorry, was it just seriously contended that Judiasm is a spin off of Christianity? And that all religions are derived from Christianity?

Still, Christians (or at least culturally Christian people) comprise the majority of this country. It's kind of odd when the minority tramples upon the majority :rolleyes:

if by "this contry" you mean the us...i think that christians are be coming the minority

God gives people the option to believe in him so, if you choose not to you are hell bound thats why on hellbound and i didnt bother reading the rest of your stupid banter.

if by "this contry" you mean the us...i think that christians are be coming the minority



True, but my argument is still valid for a few more years ;)

You're missing the point - Christianty is pushed on people more in Western Society than any other denomination. Sure I can shoose not to read (and do so), but I could certainly do without having my routine at home interrupted by doorknockers or my walk though the streets interrupted by pamphlet wavers.

And then, of course, there are the Christian interest groups who exert pressure on law and policy makers, not to mention that the "most powerful man in the world", The Dubbya, is a fire-n-brimstone good ole boy hisself...

Can you name me instances of athiests pushing their beliefs on you, or athiest interest groups influencing the government? Even if you can, I'd bet you I could name the reverse tenfold...



I'm sure I could if I weren't so lazy :D

if you read your histiory judo-christianity is the oldist continuos religon in the world...every thing elce is a spin off
I think you'll find that Buddhism, Taoism and maybe even Hinduism significantly predate the birth of Christ - of course, you are probably including Christianities pre-Christ Judaistic origins. Even then, I believe that Buddhism still outdates it, but I could be wrong.

I'm sorry, was it just seriously contended that Judiasm is a spin off of Christianity? And that all religions are derived from Christianity?



No, he said everything was a spin-off of Judeo/Christianity, which includes Judaism.

I'm sorry, was it just seriously contended that Judiasm is a spin off of Christianity? And that all religions are derived from Christianity?

i miss spoke, the jews were promised by God that he would send his son to die for them, when jesus came only a few believed him, they started what the modern church is baised off of...so they way i think that you are looking at it is that christianity is a spin off of judism....is this right?

What is this term "culturally Christian"? Thats the biggest load I've heard in a while. Either you are Christian or you are not.

Don't try to inflate your influence or numbers by claiming that athiests and others who are of "Christian" (read white, anglo-saxon) descent have the same desire for a Christian nation that you do...

What percentage of Americans are atheist? Like 5%?

15% according to the 2001 census, an increase of 6.6% of the population from the previous one. Christianity dropped by 8.5% of the population over the same period.

What is this term "culturally Christian"? Thats the biggest load I've heard in a while. Either you are Christian or you are not.

Don't try to inflate your influence or numbers by claiming that athiests and others who are of "Christian" (read white, anglo-saxon) descent have the same desire for a Christian nation that you do...


I'm feeling childish tonight, so whichever ones support my claims count and the ones that do not support my claims don't :p


Even so, Christians would still retain the majority over atheists by...umm....about 100x

I'm feeling childish tonight, so whichever ones support my claims count and the ones that do not support my claims don't :p


Even so, Christians would still retain the majority over atheists by...umm....about 100x
You are conveniently ignoring people of other denominations and others such as agnostics. Along with atheists, these others do not share a common idealogy with Christians.

Even so, Christians would still retain the majority over atheists by...umm....about 100x

Nope, by six.

No, he said everything was a spin-off of Judeo/Christianity, which includes Judaism.

Well, I would have thought so had he not said religion, not religion line, not religions, not religion type, not Judeo-Christian roots or anything else indicative of anything but strict religion and the Christian element wasn't added in until after Christ's birth. Judeo-Christianity is only a coherent religion once the Christianity part comes in, which is less than 2000 years ago and is predated by Judaism, obviously, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Zoastrianism, etc.

so is there anything elce that we have not covered? lolol

btw thanks to who ever it was who corrected my spelling :)

Also, much of Christianity is "plagiarized" from older sources - gods of other beliefs, such as Sumerian, Phoenician, Egyptian and other mythology became demons and devils in the Bible, and incorporated into Christian mythos.

Even the core of Christian belief, the crucifixion and resurrection, has it's roots in Egyptian and Sumerian mythos...

Also, much of Christianity is "plagiarized" from older sources - gods of other beliefs, such as Sumerian, Phoenician, Egyptian and other mythology became demons and devils in the Bible, and incorporated into Christian mythos.

Even the core of Christian belief, the crucifixion and resurrection, has it's roots in Egyptian and Sumerian mythos...

Which, of course, can be just as easily reversed. Jews and Christians hold to the belief that all forms of religion and spirituality were branched off of original beliefs to the Hebrew God.

There's no fixed proof either way about this, however there are similar stories in most religions and myths. Although both sides use these as proof of their arguments.

Take it as you will, I suppose.

In Christianity, Christ is central in atoning for the sins of mankind. Had there been no sins of mankind, there would be no need for a story of Christ. The nature of sin must then therefore be analyzed. It is accepted by Christians that god created everything. If this is true, then this same god created evil. It is written in the Bible that god is all-knowing (1 John 3:20). God is, in effect, omniscient. If god is omniscient and creates, he then knows all possible outcomes of all possible creations of all possible universes. If he created our universe, he chose what its destiny would be. In doing so, he chose the paths of our lives. Thus, we can conclude that the universe is completely deterministic to god and, by being a creator, he cannot allow freewill to exist unless the universe is no longer predetermined to him. If this is true, then humanity is merely a collection of automotons. If this is not not true, then god cannot be omniscient.If the Christian god were omniscient, then he could foresee his own future. If this being knows its own future, he does not have the power to change it. Considering, however, that god is omnipotent, there is a major conflict with his omniscient nature. If god were able to change his future, that would mean that god would not be able to foresee when he would make sudden changes in his future and what changes would result, eliminating the possibility of his being omniscient. Therefore, these qualities cannot be held simultaneously by one being. It is important now to look at the possibility of omnipotence. The Christian god is perfectly good and omnipotent. Yet evil exists. If god is omnipotent and perfectly good, he could and would dispell evil. Three possible conclusions arise from these statements. God is perfectly good but evil exists, so he is not able to dispell evil and thus is not omnipotent. The second possible conclusion is this: that god is omnipotent but evil exists, and god is therefore not perfectly good. The last possible, and most feasible, conclusion is that this kind of God just does not exist.


It can easily be seen that Christianity is a religion based on falsehoods and has many intrinsic flaws. They are seen by the fact that the followers of this religion do not conduct themselves in the manner proscribed by their most holy texts. These errors reside in the facts that these same texts are contradictory, and that this concept of God cannot possibly exist. These errors and omissions are then covered by a vague concept: faith.

God alows evil to existist so that he can let his plan be fulfilled

Which, of course, can be just as easily reversed. Jews and Christians hold to the belief that all forms of religion and spirituality were branched off of original beliefs to the Hebrew God.
Well, except that the other mythos I speak of predate Judeo/Christianity...

......It can easily be seen that Christianity is a religion based on falsehoods and has many intrinsic flaws. They are seen by the fact that the followers of this religion do not conduct themselves in the manner proscribed by their most holy texts. These errors reside in the facts that these same texts are contradictory, and that this concept of God cannot possibly exist. These errors and omissions are then covered by a vague concept: faith.

the reason that we dont conduct ourselves in the manner proscribed by our most holy texts is becaus human beings are fallible, we sin, we mess up, were not perfect...also the text is not contradictory...most people taht clame to be christians arnt, and there for have no reason to act like the bible says they should

...also the text is not contradictory
Please reconcile "Turn the other cheek" with "An eye for an eye" for me?

Specific body parts call for different reactions, duh. :p

Well, except that the other mythos I speak of predate Judeo/Christianity...

I don't mean Judeo/Christianity. I realize that Christianity is only two millennia old, and Judaism a little more than three. But that's not what I referred to. Scripture holds that men believed in the Hebrew God before anything else (the first "converts" being Adam and Eve). As sin grew more rampant, the separation between man and God widened. The distance spawned variants in belief, growing more distant and distorted with each generation. While Noah and his family started these beliefs over, the process started over again, and it wasn't until Abram did God show Himself again and begin a covenant with mankind, which essentially was the beginnings of Judaism.

In Christianity, Christ is central in atoning for the sins of mankind. Had there been no sins of mankind, there would be no need for a story of Christ. The nature of sin must then therefore be analyzed. It is accepted by Christians that god created everything. If this is true, then this same god created evil. It is written in the Bible that god is all-knowing (1 John 3:20). God is, in effect, omniscient. If god is omniscient and creates, he then knows all possible outcomes of all possible creations of all possible universes. If he created our universe, he chose what its destiny would be. In doing so, he chose the paths of our lives. Thus, we can conclude that the universe is completely deterministic to god and, by being a creator, he cannot allow freewill to exist unless the universe is no longer predetermined to him. If this is true, then humanity is merely a collection of automotons. If this is not not true, then god cannot be omniscient.If the Christian god were omniscient, then he could foresee his own future. If this being knows its own future, he does not have the power to change it. Considering, however, that god is omnipotent, there is a major conflict with his omniscient nature. If god were able to change his future, that would mean that god would not be able to foresee when he would make sudden changes in his future and what changes would result, eliminating the possibility of his being omniscient. Therefore, these qualities cannot be held simultaneously by one being. It is important now to look at the possibility of omnipotence. The Christian god is perfectly good and omnipotent. Yet evil exists. If god is omnipotent and perfectly good, he could and would dispell evil. Three possible conclusions arise from these statements. God is perfectly good but evil exists, so he is not able to dispell evil and thus is not omnipotent. The second possible conclusion is this: that god is omnipotent but evil exists, and god is therefore not perfectly good. The last possible, and most feasible, conclusion is that this kind of God just does not exist.


It can easily be seen that Christianity is a religion based on falsehoods and has many intrinsic flaws. They are seen by the fact that the followers of this religion do not conduct themselves in the manner proscribed by their most holy texts. These errors reside in the facts that these same texts are contradictory, and that this concept of God cannot possibly exist. These errors and omissions are then covered by a vague concept: faith.



Your first block of text scared me away because you didn't employ the use of paragraphs, so I disregarded it. As for the second, please list these contradictions :)

Also, much of Christianity is "plagiarized" from older sources - gods of other beliefs, such as Sumerian, Phoenician, Egyptian and other mythology became demons and devils in the Bible, and incorporated into Christian mythos.

Even the core of Christian belief, the crucifixion and resurrection, has it's roots in Egyptian and Sumerian mythos...



Similarities do not necessarily indicate plagiarism. I'm sure most topics covered by the later religions such as Christianity had already been similarly alluded to by earlier pagan religions.

Your first block of text scared me away because you didn't employ the use of paragraphs, so I disregarded it. As for the second, please list these contradictions :)

I believe the first paragraph was using J.L. Mackie's argument. If we accept that there is both good and evil in the world then we must come to one of three conclusions: God is not all powerful, God is not fully good, or God doesn't exist.

(Forgive me, Order, if I misunderstood)

EDIT: Pssst. You can find an outline of his argument here (http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/problem_of_evil.htm).

i would be happy to...the eye for an eye thing is an old testiment principle, and turning the other cheek is new testiment. yes this appers to be contredictory untill you know why the rule appered to change....Jesus tought that we need to be servants, ie. turning the other cheek, by doing this you shouw thatare willing to submit to the other peson, that your willing to seve them....in the old tesiment (Exodus 21:24) an eye for an eye.. was a crime deterrent... think about it you would not go attack a guy and take out his eyes if you know that his famile would come ant take your eyes out too.
look at these two sites
http://www.answers.com/topic/an-eye-for-an-eye
http://www.answers.com/Turn%20the%20other%20cheek

[QUOTE=Romanore]..... If we accept that there is both good and evil in the world then we must come to one of three conclusions: God is not all powerful, God is not fully good, or God doesn't exist....[QUOTE]
have you consider that God may allow evil to exist?

I tried to resist posting in this thread... alas I am weak. If you take a group of, oh say... I dunno 30 people who all attended the same event and asked them, "What happened?" they would all tell you a different version of that event.They would all have different views and some would be right and some would be wrong, but hey! They got to write a bunch of miscellaneous stuff about it.

Then, oh however many, many years later another 30 people come along and say, "This is good stuff, but many people don't even speak this language anymore. Let's interpret what they wrote!" So those thirty people argue over how to translate the text.

Then many more years later 30 more people come along and find this cool book. They think, "Hey! We could use this to teach our children exapmles of how to live! Let's make it the official Way-to-Live-Book."

They get into a debate over what some of the words mean. For example, on e little voice speaks up: "Virgin. Didn't that mean 'young woman'?" The others scoff and say, "No, you idiot! It means a woman who never had intercourse! Duh. It must be a miracle! Let's spread the word!"

Anyway, you get the idea.

have you consider that God may allow evil to exist?

Of course He does. Remember that I was only attempting to paraphrase Order of Death's argument, as well as J.L. Mackie's.

(I'm on your side. :p)

..... If we accept that there is both good and evil in the world then we must come to one of three conclusions: God is not all powerful, God is not fully good, or God doesn't exist....
have you consider that God may allow evil to exist?
Not if he is omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and onmiscient.

Similarities do not necessarily indicate plagiarism. I'm sure most topics covered by the later religions such as Christianity had already been similarly alluded to by earlier pagan religions.
I could accept that, if it wasn't for specific names such as Belial and Satan (derivative of Shaitan)...

I don't mean Judeo/Christianity. I realize that Christianity is only two millennia old, and Judaism a little more than three. But that's not what I referred to. Scripture holds that men believed in the Hebrew God before anything else (the first "converts" being Adam and Eve). As sin grew more rampant, the separation between man and God widened. The distance spawned variants in belief, growing more distant and distorted with each generation. While Noah and his family started these beliefs over, the process started over again, and it wasn't until Abram did God show Himself again and begin a covenant with mankind, which essentially was the beginnings of Judaism.



Pretty much what I would have said if I wasn't all drugged up right now :D

Not if he is omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and onmiscient.

In short, as this could be a very dragged out argument...

God is omnipotent in the sense that He can destroy all evil. He is omnibenevolent because He will destroy it. He is omniscient in the way of knowing the best time to destroy this evil.

I could accept that, if it wasn't for specific names such as Belial and Satan (derivative of Shaitan)...



Belial was a pagan deity if I recall correctly, many of the names of demons you'll hear are Catholic dogma derived from pagan gods/demons. I can't recall any true devils other than Satan and Legion being described in the biblical texts, although demons are often referred to. If my memory is fuzzy, someone correct me.

Belial was a pagan deity if I recall correctly, many of the names of demons you'll hear are Catholic dogma derived from pagan gods/demons.
Yep, that's exactly what I'm saying. ;)

Belial was a pagan deity if I recall correctly, many of the names of demons you'll hear are Catholic dogma derived from pagan gods/demons. I can't recall any true devils other than Satan and Legion being described in the biblical texts, although demons are often referred to. If my memory is fuzzy, someone correct me.

iam pritty sure that you are correct.....Legion...not sure who your talking about, unless you mean the demons?

In short, as this could be a very dragged out argument...

God is omnipotent in the sense that He can destroy all evil. He is omnibenevolent because He will destroy it. He is omniscient in the way of knowing the best time to destroy this evil.

God is omnibenevolent so allowing evil things is against his character, God is omnipotent so evil cannot do anything, nor provide anything that God cannot provide without using evil, and is perfectly capable of removing any evil that arrises, and god is omniscient so he knows how to do all of the above without deterimental effect to the greater good.

iam pritty sure that you are correct.....Legion...not sure who your talking about, unless you mean the demons?



Mark 5:6-13 6When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. 7He shouted at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Swear to God that you won't torture me!" 8For Jesus had said to him, "Come out of this man, you evil spirit!"

9Then Jesus asked him, "What is your name?"

"My name is Legion," he replied, "for we are many." 10And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area.

11A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. 12The demons begged Jesus, "Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them." 13He gave them permission, and the evil spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.




Btw, it was freaky hearing a cassette tape narration of that lol. It was like...a bunch of male/female demon/zombie/something voices.

Jesus in his soft, passive voice: What is your name

Many demons of both genders speaking at once: I am Legion for we are many!

Belial was a pagan deity if I recall correctly, many of the names of demons you'll hear are Catholic dogma derived from pagan gods/demons. I can't recall any true devils other than Satan and Legion being described in the biblical texts, although demons are often referred to. If my memory is fuzzy, someone correct me.

*Nod*

Belial was only referred to as such: a pagan deity. No recognition was given as an actual god or spirit. Although, yes, at times it was used as an epithet for Lucifer/Satan. Then again, so was Beelzebub. They were pagan deities and generally considered as evil. The Hebrews locals took these names and associated them with the evil that they know: Lucifer. Satan also meant "adversary" and nothing more. It was also given to Lucifer through association.

....Btw, it was freaky hearing a cassette tape narration of that lol. It was like...a bunch of male/female demon/zombie/something voices.

Jesus in his soft, passive voice: What is your name

Many demons of both genders speaking at once: I am Legion for we are many!

lol i bet...i remeber the story now..thanks

God is omnibenevolent so allowing evil things is against his character, God is omnipotent so evil cannot do anything, nor provide anything that God cannot provide without using evil, and is perfectly capable of removing any evil that arrises, and god is omniscient so he knows how to do all of the above without deterimental effect to the greater good.



God is omnibenevolent, in that evil is only temporal and eternal biss awaits those who endure it and remain faithful, also He assists those who seek relief from sin. God is omnipotent in that He has power over Satan and will eventually triumph. God is omniscient in that, through His infinite wisdom, He allows trials and tribulations to test man that He might discern those who truly love Him.

Btw, it was freaky hearing a cassette tape narration of that lol. It was like...a bunch of male/female demon/zombie/something voices.

Jesus in his soft, passive voice: What is your name

Many demons of both genders speaking at once: I am Legion for we are many!

I think I heard that before! It gave me shivers as well. They have a CD of that now, I think, although it was a friend's, so I don't know what version it was...

*Nod*

Belial was only referred to as such: a pagan deity. No recognition was given as an actual god or spirit. Although, yes, at times it was used as an epithet for Lucifer/Satan. Then again, so was Beelzebub. They were pagan deities and generally considered as evil. The Hebrews locals took these names and associated them with the evil that they know: Lucifer. Satan also meant "adversary" and nothing more. It was also given to Lucifer through association.


Yeah, as cool as Isaiah 14 would be if it were referring to Satan, it, in actuality, is referring to the king of Babylon who was named Lucifer:



1For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

2And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.

3And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,

4That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

5The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.

6He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.

7The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.

8Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.

9Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

10All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

11Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

16They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

17That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

18All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

19But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

20Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

21Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

22For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.

23I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the LORD of hosts.

24The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:

25That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.

26This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.

27For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?

28In the year that king Ahaz died was this burden.

29Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.

30And the firstborn of the poor shall feed, and the needy shall lie down in safety: and I will kill thy root with famine, and he shall slay thy remnant.

31Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times.

32What shall one then answer the messengers of the nation? That the LORD hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it.

God is omnibenevolent, in that evil is only temporal and eternal biss awaits those who endure it and remain faithful, also He assists those who seek relief from sin. God is omnipotent in that He has power over Satan and will eventually triumph. God is omniscient in that, through His infinite wisdom, He allows trials and tribulations to test man that He might discern those who truly love Him.

Those are not omni-anythings, those are conditional benevolence and knowledge.

Those are not omni-anythings, those are conditional benevolence and knowledge.


Well, let's not forget that we are erroneously applying the standards of man to God. For to Him, our reasoning is as nothing.

Those are not omni-anythings, those are conditional benevolence and knowledge.
how is that possible?

Assuming that a being of such immense powers exists, I seriously doubt we could even fathom such a being's reasoning and logic. Human standards will not work on an all powerful God.

Assuming that a being of such immense powers exists, I seriously doubt we could even fathom such a being's reasoning and logic. Human standards will not work on an all powerful God.
I find it hard to believe that God would have the physical attributes of human beings, yet we are purportedly created in God's image. Since humans are varied from each other, yet at any particular time only appear as they appear, it cannot be true that every human is built in the physical image of God, (since this would require that we all look alike at the same time). I can only conclude that being 'made in God's image' refers not to physical attributes, but rather to 'reasoning and logic' (and possibly emotion etc), which would mean that our reasoning and logic is akin to God's.

I find it hard to believe that God would have the physical attributes of human beings, yet we are purportedly created in God's image. Since humans are varied from each other, yet at any particular time only appear as they appear, it cannot be true that every human is built in the physical image of God, (since this would require that we all look alike at the same time). I can only conclude that being 'made in God's image' refers not to physical attributes, but rather to 'reasoning and logic' (and possibly emotion etc), which would mean that our reasoning and logic is akin to God's.

Most possibly an accurate interpretation. However, you don't take into account that, even though our logic and reason are similar, ours our finite and extremely limited, whereas God is infinite in His. We cannot comprehend fully what his complete way of logical thinking is, as can only see a limited portion/percentage.

Most possibly an accurate interpretation. However, you don't take into account that, even though our logic and reason are similar, ours our finite and extremely limited, whereas God is infinite in His. We cannot comprehend fully what his complete way of logical thinking is, as can only see a limited portion/percentage.
Either God's logic and reason are finite, or ours is infinite, or our reasoning and logic is in an image unlike God's.

Either God's logic and reason are finite, or ours is infinite, or our reasoning and logic is in an image unlike God's.



It was referring to self-awareness and the capacity to reason, not any specific degree of such...

It was referring to self-awareness and the capacity to reason, not any specific degree of such...
Aha, but now we have another problem. Since it is being 'made in God's image' that 'sets us apart' from the animals we were granted dominion over, in whatever sense we are 'made in God's image' no 'non-human' can also be so. So if it is that we reason and are self aware, then anything that has the capacity to reason and is self aware is made in God's image and in fact is human. However non-human primates appear to be self aware and have a capacity for reasoning.

Either God's logic and reason are finite, or ours is infinite, or our reasoning and logic is in an image unlike God's.

Well, who's to say we didn't at one point have infinite reason? When we were created, we were created without sin's taint. Adam and Eve could very well have had been on par with God when it came to logic and reason. However, in their innocence and curiosity they rebelled, ruining that perfection, in turn destroying what logic they once held.

We are in a fallen state. What once was is now no more (yay poetics). We are a broken image of what God had originally intended. The logic and reason we now have, while similar to God's, is now extremely confined.

Aha, but now we have another problem. Since it is being 'made in God's image' that 'sets us apart' from the animals we were granted dominion over, in whatever sense we are 'made in God's image' no 'non-human' can also be so. So if it is that we reason and are self aware, then anything that has the capacity to reason and is self aware is made in God's image and in fact is human. However non-human primates appear to be self aware and have a capacity for reasoning.

No, you're now confining "made in God's image" to just logic and reasoning. The key difference we have that separates us from animals is the soul and spirit. There is a teaching, although I can't verify it's accuracy, that the "image" is a reflection of the Holy Trinity within us: The Mind/Soul (the Father), the Body (Christ), and the Spirit (the Holy Spirit). In a perfect state, it may very well have been an accurate reflection, but now that we are fallen and no longer holy, the reflection is distorted and broken, if not completely shattered.

I don't know for sure if said teaching is what was meant, but it is true that we have souls, wheras animals lack them.

Well, who's to say we didn't at one point have infinite reason? When we were created, we were created without sin's taint. Adam and Eve could very well have had been on par with God when it came to logic and reason. However, in their innocence and curiosity they rebelled, ruining that perfection, in turn destroying what logic they once held.

We are in a fallen state. What once was is now no more (yay poetics). We are a broken image of what God had originally intended. The logic and reason we now have, while similar to God's, is now extremely confined.
This would require that either God did not create me, or did not create me in God's image. I was not existent in the days of Adam and Eve. Either God created everything, in which case all humans (every individual) were created by God in God's image, or God did not create me in his image. It cannot both be true that God created me in his image, and that I was not (due to the conduct of Adam and Eve) created by God in God's image.

No, you're now confining "made in God's image" to just logic and reasoning.
No I am including logic and reasoning.
The key difference we have that separates us from animals is the soul and spirit.
God's spirit is incorruptible, so clearly if our spirit is corrupted (fallen) through sin, our spirit is in an image unlike God's.

There is a teaching, although I can't verify it's accuracy, that the "image" is a reflection of the Holy Trinity within us: The Mind/Soul (the Father), the Body (Christ), and the Spirit (the Holy Spirit). In a perfect state, it may very well have been an accurate reflection, but now that we are fallen and no longer holy, the reflection is distorted and broken, if not completely shattered.
The problem is corruption occurs through sin, but sin is only 'that which is against the will of God' so if God does something that is God's will and not against God, which means God is incorruptible, so if we are corruptable, then we are not in God's image.

I don't know for sure if said teaching is what was meant, but it is true that we have souls, wheras animals lack them.
So far as I understand because 'man' was 'in God's image' man was granted dominion over the other animals (i.e. those things not in God' image). So far as I can tell the dominion over animals relies entirely on our being in God's image, whilst they are not, yet if we are 'unlike' the image we are supposed to be like, then we dont qualify for dominion over the animals, yet God does not appear to have revoked that dominion when the apple got eaten.

This would require that either God did not create me, or did not create me in God's image. I was not existent in the days of Adam and Eve. Either God created everything, in which case all humans (every individual) were created by God in God's image, or God did not create me in his image. It cannot both be true that God created me in his image, and that I was not (due to the conduct of Adam and Eve) created by God in God's image.

No, he created Adam and Eve in His image.

And God said, 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.'

The original intent was for us to be in his image. And that was accomplished. However, man screwed up and fell from that image--at the least partially. It isn't scriptural to say that all of us are created in His image. However, it is scriptural that He fashions each of us to His liking.

For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.

My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body.

All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

EDIT to add: Even if God wanted to, we cannot be in God's complete image, as we are in a fallen state of grace, and in order to be in His image, we must be perfect like Him.

No, he created Adam and Eve in His image.
"Man" I take to refer to humanity.



The original intent was for us to be in his image.
My understanding of the bible is that God is perfect, therefore any intent of God's would be perfectly fufilled.

And that was accomplished. However, man screwed up and fell from that image--at the least partially.
God created man to screw up, and if God created man as 'screw-upable' in God's image, then God too must be able to screw up, so why should we believe that God's word should be trusted, he might just have been screwing up when he said that ('that' referring to any particular thing stated in the bible).

It isn't scriptural to say that all of us are created in His image. However, it is scriptural that He fashions each of us to His liking.
That would entail Godm liking us to be sinners, unable to realise his existence and thus doomed to hell, because if the bible is correct, then that is the fate of a very large number of us.


EDIT to add: Even if God wanted to, we cannot be in God's complete image, as we are in a fallen state of grace, and in order to be in His image, we must be perfect like Him.
If we had ever been in God's image we could not have fallen from a state of grace because we would have been perfect like Him.

No I am including logic and reasoning.

God's spirit is incorruptible, so clearly if our spirit is corrupted (fallen) through sin, our spirit is in an image unlike God's.

Which is what I said. :p I think we're both missing some point of the other's argument (and I do mean myself included).

The problem is corruption occurs through sin, but sin is only 'that which is against the will of God' so if God does something that is God's will and not against God, which means God is incorruptible, so if we are corruptable, then we are not in God's image.

Adam and Eve had free will, which allowed them to pass from incorruptable to corruptable. I suppose they had, shall we say, a potential to be corrupted while staying in perfection. (Let me just say here that scripture is very hazy when it comes to just what kind of state Adam and Eve were in before the Fall. They were sinless and without taint, but it isn't certain to just how far that went, and what that would fully imply. Many take it to mean they were "perfect" like God, but more innocent, thus more prone to corruption...if that makes sense.) It's in my belief that God too has free-will, as he does what he pleases. However, because he is perfect and omnibenevolent, he confines himself to doing only that which is holy. <tangent>Some you may debate against in he future may contend that he can only do that which is holy, and it is not a choice for him. It's a torn topic. </tangent>

So far as I understand because 'man' was 'in God's image' man was granted dominion over the other animals (i.e. those things not in God' image). So far as I can tell the dominion over animals relies entirely on our being in God's image, whilst they are not, yet if we are 'unlike' the image we are supposed to be like, then we dont qualify for dominion over the animals, yet God does not appear to have revoked that dominion when the apple got eaten.

I believe that we lost our dominion when we fell. Adam had complete control over all of creation--so much in fact that he could call together each animal in pairs in order to name them all. I don't think that's possible for us. Even Noah, the most holy-am-I kinda guy in his time (although that's not saying much), couldn't call them together. It took and act of God to bring them all to the ark. We can train animals, oh yes, but do they really "obey", much less obey without question?

But yes, I do see that you may mean dominion in the sense of we are superior beings (if that is what you meant). That still remains largely due to our intellect and mental power. But even then, when stranded out in the wild with no available tools, what should happen when a pack of wolves sniffs you out and decides that they're hungry? There's no dominion there.

Which is what I said. :p I think we're both missing some point of the other's argument (and I do mean myself included).
I think the point is wrapped up around whether or not something that is in God's image could be corruptable if God is not.


Adam and Eve had free will, which allowed them to pass from incorruptable to corruptable.
It comes in here. Either God is corruptable and so not perfect, or anything created in God's image is incorruptable, they cannot both be true.

I suppose they had, shall we say, a potential to be corrupted while staying in perfection. (Let me just say here that scripture is very hazy when it comes to just what kind of state Adam and Eve were in before the Fall. They were sinless and without taint, but it isn't certain to just how far that went, and what that would fully imply. Many take it to mean they were "perfect" like God, but more innocent, thus more prone to corruption...if that makes sense.)
To me it does not make sense. Either they were made in God's image and God is perfect and incorruptable, or God is corruptable, or they were not made in God's image.

It's in my belief that God too has free-will, as he does what he pleases. However, because he is perfect and omnibenevolent, he confines himself to doing only that which is holy. <tangent>Some you may debate against in he future may contend that he can only do that which is holy, and it is not a choice for him. It's a torn topic. </tangent>
Again I find this does not make sense to me. God created humans, made them so they could fall into sin, thus follows a heap of unneccessary suffering, much of it perpetrated on people who did not exist when Adam and Eve sinned and yet are being punished for their crime. And all set in place by a perfect thing that completely loves us but created a great number of us to suffer eternally in hell. What the heck is omnibenevolent about creating something most of which you know you are setting up to suffer, apparently for no reason other than your own amusement...? :(

I just dont get it!

I believe that we lost our dominion when we fell. Adam had complete control over all of creation--so much in fact that he could call together each animal in pairs in order to name them all. I don't think that's possible for us. Even Noah, the most holy-am-I kinda guy in his time (although that's not saying much), couldn't call them together. It took and act of God to bring them all to the ark. We can train animals, oh yes, but do they really "obey", much less obey without question?

But yes, I do see that you may mean dominion in the sense of we are superior beings (if that is what you meant). That still remains largely due to our intellect and mental power. But even then, when stranded out in the wild with no available tools, what should happen when a pack of wolves sniffs you out and decides that they're hungry? There's no dominion there.
I was meaning more the 'rights' of dominion, we may use animals for meat, for clothing etc, we may kill them and it is not a sin. I understood that this 'right' to take what we wish from other animals, derived from our dominion over them. So far as I understand if we dont have dominion over other animals, within the moral order set by God, then it would be immoral within that order to eat animals (unless they died of old age or unavoidable accident).

"Man" I take to refer to humanity.

As do others, but not myself, as that would then, I believe, contradict our state of sin and his perfection.

My understanding of the bible is that God is perfect, therefore any intent of God's would be perfectly fufilled.

You and me both. :) But I still stand by that particular interpretation, as that would fit the picture.

God created man to screw up, and if God created man as 'screw-upable' in God's image, then God too must be able to screw up, so why should we believe that God's word should be trusted, he might just have been screwing up when he said that ('that' referring to any particular thing stated in the bible).

God created man knowing that man would screw-up, yes. Did he want them to? Of course not. However, it seems to me that we're taking on two different takes on "image" still. If we went completely literal with "in God's image", then Adam and Eve would have been god and goddess respectively. They weren't. They were still creations of God, and, therefore, limited. That isn't to say, however, that their logic and resoning would have been limited also. They were, however, innocent, as they had no knowledge of anything but God's good graces (they probably wouldn't have even understood the word "good" if you mentioned it to them at the time). It was the serpant in the end that convinced them to "broaden" their knowledge by disobeying God.

God made man in His image, but in the end, man was still man. Not God.

That would entail Godm liking us to be sinners, unable to realise his existence and thus doomed to hell, because if the bible is correct, then that is the fate of a very large number of us.

Not so. He despises sin, and wants all to be redeemed in order to come back to His courts. However, because of our initial sin and current state, we cannot be born pure. He fashions us to His liking in the way that we are all created with His blessings, at least those that he can bestow upon our sin-ridden selves.

As for being unable to realize his existance, that also is untrue. At least, not in the way you may be thinking. While some may never lay hands on a Bible, much less hear the word "Bible", they may yet still experience God just through life around them. I don't believe God would be so cruel as to make someone ignorant of his existance and then damn them to hell for it. As C.S. Lewis so wonderfully described in the Narnia book The Last Battle, the Calormene prince, of the people who worshipped the dark god named Tash (allegorical to Satan), was admitted into the Perfect Realms (heaven) with all other sould who sided with King Aslan the lion (allegorical to Christ). When the boy asked the lion why, Aslan stated that even though the boy didn't know His name, he worshipped what he did know as loyally and innocently as he would have Him. He saw through--beyond as some would say--Tash and indirectly worshipped Aslan, even though he knew nothing of the lion.

If we had ever been in God's image we could not have fallen from a state of grace because we would have been perfect like Him.

Again, we're coming to the point where we're looking at two different "in God's image"s here. If we were literally made in His image, we would have been Gods ourselves. But that clearly wasn't the case. We were made in his likeness, but not made Him, if that makes sense...

EDIT: I just looked it up because it was nabbing at me and the Calormene boy's name was Emeth, and he was a soldier, not a prince. I don't know if youre one to care, but I'm unhealthily nitpicky like that. :p

Alas I need to sleep, even though I'd much rather stay up and debate with you (I hope you're having as much fun as I, and I do hope that I'm remaining coherent at this hour). I have a doctor's appointment at 8 in the morning and will be there for a few hours, as I'm having a glucose tolerance test. (My brother recently passed away from diabetes, so I'm just making sure.)

Please, let's continue this. I'll try to be on tomorrow between my appointment and work, so if you have answered since then, I'll be happy to reply.

Goodnight to you, Zagat. Thanks for being a civil debater. You're a rarity in this world, I'd say.

*cookie to you*

Alas I need to sleep, even though I'd much rather stay up and debate with you (I hope you're having as much fun as I, and I do hope that I'm remaining coherent at this hour).
Aha, on all counts (I also was about to head off, your comments are entirely coherent and even insightful, and I was definately enjoying our discussion).

I have a doctor's appointment at 8 in the morning and will be there for a few hours, as I'm having a glucose tolerance test. (My brother recently passed away from diabetes, so I'm just making sure.)
I'm sorry to hear about your brother, I hope all works out well for you, it's good you are being proactive with your health.

Please, let's continue this. I'll try to be on tomorrow between my appointment and work, so if you have answered since then, I'll be happy to reply.
I did type out an answer, but it got cyber-gobbled when I was hit the post button and found I had been logged out (normally I 'copy' text before I hit post, it's only when I dont that I find I got logged out and lost my post..... :rolleyes: ). I'll recap the points I made when I log in tomorrow.

Goodnight to you, Zagat.
Night night Romanore!

Thanks for being a civil debater. You're a rarity in this world, I'd say.
Well it takes two to have a civil debate, so I'm no more rare than yourself!


[/quote]
*cookie to you*[/QUOTE]
And chocolate cupcake to you (hoping you like chocolate, otherwise perhaps a nice piece of blueberry and apple pie....Mmmm pie) ;)

For some older, but still equally valid arguement on why Christianity is bunk, and full of faulty logic, read some of Thomas Paine's (an American leader in the revolution against Britain) work, The Age of Reason.
http://www.thomaspaine.org/Archives/AOR1.html [January 28, 1794.]
http://www.thomaspaine.org/Archives/AOR2.html [October 25, 1795.]
This man's views on a number of other areas such as civil rights and governmental behaviour certainly were ahead of his time, and I would encourage all to read
African Slavery in America
[Written 1774; Published March 8, 1775.]
and
An Occasional Letter on the Female Sex
[Published August, 1775.]
these are available about a fifth of the way down the page:
http://www.thomaspaine.org/contents.html

God created us as the perfect beings we where at the start og our life on earth good but satan came and corrupted us and god them sent he one begotten son to earth to save us from our sins and at that point if we as humans are willing to accept that then we are not hell-bound but bound to the ever lasting light of heaven to spend all eternity with god and remeber it isint god that sends us to hell it's ourselves

Besides most of the laws and ethics you live by today are thanks to christianity back in roman times you chucked a baby outside to die if it looked weak and in places like germania and cannibalism was practise and human sacrifice was accpetable in most eastern regions and human rights are based on the bible slavery was banned thanks to christians the day christianity became the official religion of the roman empire was the day all that is good smiled on the earth because finally a real form of civilization was starting

the thing is some bastards in italy screwedup and ruined our modern day reputation by becoming corrupt and sending us to wars we shouldnt of had anything to do with

God created us as the perfect beings we where at the start og our life on earth good but satan came and corrupted us and god them sent he one begotten son to earth to save us from our sins and at that point if we as humans are willing to accept that then we are not hell-bound but bound to the ever lasting light of heaven to spend all eternity with god and remeber it isint god that sends us to hell it's ourselves
And he couldn’t have attended to our salvation without killing his son? He was the only one requiring a sacrifice. It was through his deeds and because of his requirements that Jesus died. If he was human he would probably at best be tried as accessory to a murder.

And he couldn’t have attended to our salvation without killing his son? He was the only one requiring a sacrifice. It was through his deeds and because of his requirements that Jesus died. If he was human he would probably at best be tried as accessory to a murder.

God is all forgiving and all powerful. At the same time, though, God is also holy, just, and righteous. God’s holiness and justice demand that sin be punished (Romans 3:23; 6:23). God is infinite and eternal. Since all sin is ultimately committed against God (Psalm 51:4), the only just punishment for sin is an infinite and eternal punishment. The only way we can personally pay for our sins is by spending eternity in hell, in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14-15). However, God, in His love, mercy, and grace, provided for our salvation.



Jesus Christ was God in the flesh (John 1:1, 14). When Jesus died on the cross, His death was an infinite death because He was God, and therefore infinite and eternal. Jesus’ death was sufficient to pay for all the sins that have ever been committed (2 Corinthians 5:21). All we must do is place our faith in Him and our sins will be forgiven (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10). That is why Jesus had to die. His death was the only way our sins could be forgiven.


Just found this on some site and it seems to answer that question

God is all forgiving and all powerful. At the same time, though, God is also holy, just, and righteous. God’s holiness and justice demand that sin be punished (Romans 3:23; 6:23). God is infinite and eternal. Since all sin is ultimately committed against God (Psalm 51:4), the only just punishment for sin is an infinite and eternal punishment. The only way we can personally pay for our sins is by spending eternity in hell, in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14-15). However, God, in His love, mercy, and grace, provided for our salvation.



Jesus Christ was God in the flesh (John 1:1, 14). When Jesus died on the cross, His death was an infinite death because He was God, and therefore infinite and eternal. Jesus’ death was sufficient to pay for all the sins that have ever been committed (2 Corinthians 5:21). All we must do is place our faith in Him and our sins will be forgiven (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10). That is why Jesus had to die. His death was the only way our sins could be forgiven.


Just found this on some site and it seems to answer that question
But I have a problem with the “only” way

If god is omnipotent all ways are open to him but for some reason he picked killing his son as the method of choice.

He was the only one anyone has to ultimately answer to … he could have changed his forgiveness procedures without requiring the death of what is supposedly a really good guy