NationStates Jolt Archive

I am a deist. And I am asking anyone to covert.

The principles of my religion are as follows:
God exists. It cannot be proven or disproven because God's existence permeates every facet of the universe. For example, no one can deny that logic governs the universe. One plus one is two, no matter what the case. However, can you prove that logic exists? No. The reason being that the only way to prove logic is by using logic itself. The same idea applies to God, in that God's existence can only be attempted to be proven by the already preconcieved belief that he exists (just as with logic). So God can never be proven nor disproven, because every argument for God's existence is a homonculus argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homonculus#The_homunculus_argument_in_philosophy_of_mind)(IE: "I think, therefore I am,").
God is good. Ultimately, God is everything that has ever existed, does exist, or will exist. On one hand, this may lead to the notion that God is both good and evil, but that is not true. "Evil," is a concept created by mankind and regardless of the real or apparent suffering we face, the true nature of the universe is good.
God is both an abstract and material being. Philosophers such as Spinoza believed that God was simply reason itself, not a conscious arbiter of life's events (Nietzsche once wrote, "God is dead,"). Others both before and after him believed that God is a living being that does directly affect our lives. I ascribe to both, in that, in reality, God is the embodiment of reason, love, and wisdom, but it is still important, beneficial, and necessary that we interact to him as a living being through prayer and meditation. We should bless God, the living being, both in times of success and struggle. When we suffer and there is seemingly no purpose for it, it is the demonstration that God is not just a living being that cares for us, but the embodiment of righteousness itself, and that only by demonstrating what we percieve as evil can righteousness be realized and attained.
All religions are inherently good. Scientific studies have shown that religious people live happier, live longer, live healthier, don't do drugs, don't commit crimes, are more intelligent, more emotionally-stable, and have more friends. See if you can get access to the International Journal of the Psychology of Religion if you can.
All religions are based upon the same divine, immutable moral principles. Within the major religions, there are a large number of consistent morals and themes. The most significant is "the golden rule." Religions are merely the self-reflection of mankind's ethics and spirituality embodied in a system of beliefs.
Labels and rituals separate us more than beliefs. A person who has never read the Bible or heard the name "Jesus" can still be a Christian. As the Bible says of non-Christians who are righteous, they are "a law unto themselves," because God's word was "written in their hearts." (Romans 2:14-16) Because being selflessly devoted to the welfare of mankind is true faith in God, not arbitrary rituals, traditions, titles, or labels.
True moral acts are done regardless of rewards or punishments. If a man says, "Give to charity and I'll give you $100 dollars. If you don't, I'll take $100 from you." The same applies to religion. The reward of heaven and the punishment of hell are irrelevant to morality. True morality cannot be forced, but is realized through the inner conviction of individuals. Morals enforced by laws or spiritual threats are good deeds done without faith.
The afterlife is an indescribable, pleasurable return to the divine. We are formed from the universe and after we die, we return to it, the particles that make up our bodies blowing away like dust in the wind. This is not bad, but is an inconcievable merge with the supreme consciousness of the universe. Whether this is a permanent "heaven," or can eventually end with reincarnation is unknown and entirely left up to the individual.
The clergy are sometimes good, but unnecessary. When the priesthood are groups of educated individuals who converse with the public, in order to inspire them to self-reflect and become moral people, it is a good thing. But when they are said to be more in touch with God than others, dictating morality and interpretations of scripture, and denouncing dissenters, they become vessels of selfishness, closedmindedness, greed, hatred, and evil.

"Scientific studies have shown that religious people live happier, live longer, live healthier, don't do drugs, don't commit crimes, are more intelligent, more emotionally-stable, and have more friends. See if you can get access to the International Journal of the Psychology of Religion if you can."

Actually Theists tend to be less intelligent, don't know about the other ones... anyway you're only preaching escape from insecurity, not genuine promises.

Here's my idea:

Convert to Nihilism now!

As a Nihilist, you'll never be worried again for as long as you live, and that's a scientific fact!

Too bad Deists rationalized reasons to own slaves... :( But at least they felt badly about it.


LOL :p

[list] God exists. It cannot be proven or disproven because God's existence permeates every facet of the universe. For example, no one can deny that logic governs the universe. One plus one is two, no matter what the case. However, can you prove that logic exists? No. The reason being that the only way to prove logic is by using logic itself. The same idea applies to God, in that God's existence can only be attempted to be proven by the already preconcieved belief that he exists (just as with logic). So God can never be proven nor disproven, because every argument for God's existence is a homonculus argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homonculus#The_homunculus_argument_in_philosophy_of_mind)(IE: "I think, therefore I am,").

But reason has shown very often to be right. It has been "proven" through experience. Has God?

I can't vote. :( I'm already a Deist! :p

*Tsk* I would've at least expected you to get your facts & quotations right.

If god exists, then he is an asshole. FACT.

Only horribly ignorant people are happy. I'm glad they're happy, but I wish they'd shut up.

I'm clearly missing something. If 'all religions are inherently good'...why should we convert to yours, when presumably we're already doing a perfectly good job without it? And also, intellectual fuckwankery isn't a religion. It's just a set of things you happen to think. Thanks for telling us, and perhaps we should all start threads listing our opinions on things other than abortion, but it hardly makes for a compelling case.

"Scientific studies have shown that religious people live happier, live longer, live healthier, don't do drugs, don't commit crimes, are more intelligent, more emotionally-stable, and have more friends. See if you can get access to the International Journal of the Psychology of Religion if you can."

Actually Theists tend to be less intelligent, don't know about the other ones... anyway you're only preaching escape from insecurity, not genuine promises.

Here's my idea:

Convert to Nihilism now!

As a Nihilist, you'll never be worried again for as long as you live, and that's a scientific fact!
You got that right.

http://fapfap.org/whyimnotanihilist.gif

Too bad Deists rationalized reasons to own slaves... :( But at least they felt badly about it.


LOL :p
So did some Christians, who DIDN'T feel bad about it.

I'm clearly missing something. If 'all religions are inherently good'...why should we convert to yours, when presumably we're already doing a perfectly good job without it?
Because I'm asking. And discussing. Not knocking on your door and harassing you, or threatening your life or soul. Not everyone has a "religion," nor is everyone happy with the religion they have.

Actually Theists tend to be less intelligent, don't know about the other ones... anyway you're only preaching escape from insecurity, not genuine promises.

Here's my idea:

Convert to Nihilism now!

As a Nihilist, you'll never be worried again for as long as you live, and that's a scientific fact!You're a funny man(?).

As it's said in my discipline, "In theory, practice is the same as theory. However, in practice there is a difference." Something like that.

I'm sick of these bizarre religion threads.

Well thanks for completely side-stepping my point. I'm going to ask again: why, if all religions are inherently good, should anyone convert? Surely you're arguing that you can not possibly offer anything more than anyone else...which isn't the greatest sales pitch ever.

I don't have any religion whatsoever. And damn am I happy about it. I can do whatever I want (as long as its mostly legal), have no obligations to any religious orginazations, or whatnot, don't need to follow rules and can instead live freely, do what I please, believe whatever the hell I want to, and follow my own morals and ideals. So no, I'm not converting nor will I ever convert to any religious group.

I'm sick of these bizarre religion threads.
Deism, bizarre?
You must not have much knowledge of history, eh?

Well thanks for completely side-stepping my point. I'm going to ask again: why, if all religions are inherently good, should anyone convert? Surely you're arguing that you can not possibly offer anything more than anyone else...which isn't the greatest sales pitch ever.
"Sales pitch?"

Convert to Judaism now, and as your free gift, you'll get a Jewish soul! And lifetime discounts, everywhere.

Convert to Catholicism and you'll get a lifetime supply of Communion wine! (Disclaimer: No lump sum. One glass per week)

Really. A good religion doesn't need "selling points." Religious belief is something that someone comes to through faith and inspiration, which comes in part from human interaction such as now. Not because they think there's a golden prize in the bottom of the divine cereal box.

And I didn't sidestep your point at all. Because someone who doesn't have a religion or doesn't like their religion doesn't need a reward promised to them in order to convert to another religion.

'A good religion'...but all religions are inherently good, right? So, why should a Catholic convert to Deism when you've just acknowledged that he really doesn't need to?

I don't understand how you have to "convert" to be a deist. I'm a Catholic, and I believe in many deist thoughts as well.

God exists. It cannot be proven or disproven because God's existence permeates every facet of the universe. For example, no one can deny that logic governs the universe. One plus one is two, no matter what the case. However, can you prove that logic exists? No. The reason being that the only way to prove logic is by using logic itself. The same idea applies to God, in that God's existence can only be attempted to be proven by the already preconcieved belief that he exists (just as with logic). So God can never be proven nor disproven, because every argument for God's existence is a homonculus argument(IE: "I think, therefore I am,").

Is it logical that something may exist in more than one place at once at the same time? There are many things in the universe that are seemingly illogical, until they are resolved, I cannot believe that the universe is ruled by logic.

But reason has shown very often to be right. It has been "proven" through experience. Has God?
Your definition of "right," and your interpretation of experience is based solely on reason. Logic has never been proven to exist, except by logic.

'A good religion'...but all religions are inherently good, right? So, why should a Catholic convert to Deism when you've just acknowledged that he really doesn't need to?
Because not all people are Catholics. Nowhere did I suggest that EVERYONE should convert. Stop viewing this like fundamentalist Christianity.

No, you're right. I'm sorry. You didn't title your thread 'Convert To Deism Today!'.

I mean, come on. Trying to say 'oh but I don't mean everyone should convert' is pathetic weaselling out of your original staunch position. I have no problem with your trying to convert people - except that I don't see the point. And, seemingly, you're now only talking about those without a religion converting - yet you hadn't mentioned that up to this stage. Just who, specifically, are you trying to convert, and why?

No, you're right. I'm sorry. You didn't title your thread 'Convert To Deism Today!'.

I mean, come on. Trying to say 'oh but I don't mean everyone should convert' is pathetic weaselling out of your original staunch position. I have no problem with your trying to convert people - except that I don't see the point. And, seemingly, you're now only talking about those without a religion converting - yet you hadn't mentioned that up to this stage. Just who, specifically, are you trying to convert, and why?
Oh. Yes. Please, no. I'm sorry.

I should've named the thread, "If you don't have a religion or aren't happy with your religion, or for whatever reason want to voluntarily convert, convert to Deism today!"

I am sorry for not chewing the rhetoric for you, so that you could digest it.

No. ;)
I'm already pretty deist, but I'm quite married to the ideas of Christ. And I have my own opinon that reason is God's ultimate gift to man, which allows man to make their own decisions.

I graciously accept your apology.

You sound more like a non-biblical Christian or Jew rather than an actual deist.

I thought deism was simply the philosophy that God created the universe then stepped back and let things run. You can attach what you want to it, just don't go for interventionalism.

If God is good and God is reasonable, he should accept my inability to believe in his existence.

Sorry Shrub, arguing for the existence of God is impossible and largely pointless, so I am staying agnostic.

You sound more like a non-biblical Christian or Jew rather than an actual deist.

I thought deism was simply the philosophy that God created the universe then stepped back and let things run. You can attach what you want to it, just don't go for interventionalism.

That IS part of the basic Deist principle, it is just an utterly simplistic look at a small piece of Deism. Not exactly phrased right either. Shrub here explained the bigger picture rather well though.

Personally my beliefs tend to fall in line with Deism but I never really pigeon-holed myself under that particular label because I tend to put quite a bit of stock in non-denomination Biblical Christianity.

you people and your religion

religion was created by some cave man that wondered why a tree branch was set a flame, his idea was "someone bigger than me must've done it"

i agree, your proposal and arguements are pretty sound, but the famous quote "i think therefore i am" is rather ignorant. how can you prove to another being besides yourself that you are real? after all, feelings and emotions are just chemical reactions in a three pound organ atop your head, that is no different than a computer working.

people are scared that when they die, their thoughts and body are gone forever, and religion makes them think that they are eternal

people shouldn't be afraid, it is the same feeling you feel before you were born.

but i have to say, if i were religous, deism would be the way to go

You sound more like a non-biblical Christian or Jew rather than an actual deist.

I thought deism was simply the philosophy that God created the universe then stepped back and let things run. You can attach what you want to it, just don't go for interventionalism.
Pretty much, on both statements. What you said about Deism is correct, except God can be interventionalist. Deists are simply those who believe in God and found their beliefs on reason, rather than tradition.

As for my beliefs, they aren't exactly non-Biblical. I believe in the divinity of the Tanakh, but like non-Orthodox Jews, I agree that it came from a variety of non-divine sources (Judaism evolved from native religions). I feel that Christ was a wise man and a philosopher, but that the mythology around him was built after his death, as sort of a personality cult. And I feel that he was wrong on a number of issues in Judaism or that the New Testament just doesn't explain them clearly... I believe early Christians were also more cult-like than people realize as well. For example, the book of Revelations was actually the first book to be written for the Bible, not the last.

Islam, I think, made some very legitimate criticisms of Christianity and was right to form Islam, which adheres more to the original law. But then, Muhammed tossed in his own distortions as well.

Ba'hai has been a very strong influence. I've never read any their religious texts, but from what I've discussed with Ba'hais at firesides (religious meetings for Ba'hais), their religion's founder, Baha'ullah, was another wise man and philosopher... The Jesus Christ of Islam. However, while I agree with Baha'ullah's statements about the Abrahamic religions being a continuous living entity (a tree) growing from Judaism, to Christianity, to Islam, to Ba'hai, I think it's important to recognize that there are branches, and that one branch is not necessarily "higher." I also disagree with Baha'ullah's statements about how there are "divine manifestations," in other words, people like Moses, Christ, and Muhammed, who were destined to be who they were. But rather, I believe it was by choice.

Not inspired by Hinduism much, because their complex mythology and the way that their religious texts are presented is confusing. Their religious texts are composed largely of myths for which you need to know the context to understand. I also was largely influenced by Buddhism, not the religion exactly, but its ideals and principles of the "middle path," between selfishness and selflessness.

Taoism was also a large influence, especially because of my education in psychology--the more you try to control people, the more they rebel. The happier people are, the less they want to kill. I agree that the wise man does accomplish things through "non-action." Moses let God do the work and Jesus allowed himself to be crucified.

Mostly, though, yeah. I've flirted with converting to Judaism. I used to speak with Rabbis on AskMoses.com and even called a few in Israel, a couple of times. They're nice people. The moment I actually had faith in the Old Testament was when a Rabbi spoke to me of the historical evidence for Mt. Sinai.

He said that a lot of events in the Bible, particularly the New Testament miracles, have very little historical evidence as they were viewed only by a small number of people... But when Moses got the 10 commandments from Mt. Sinai, the entire Jewish people were there, hundreds of thousands (if not millions--don't remember the exact number). They all witnessed it and many of them wrote about it. The preponderance of evidence for the event is overwhelming. So, regardless of whether you believe it was God, something happened. It also marked a major point in human history, for when modern, civilized morality had been developed. After that, I was hooked. And I strongly believe in the Jewish Bible (the Tanakh).

I'm not going to convert to Judaism, though, for a variety of reasons. First of all, I don't consider myself a moral-enough or educated-enough person (I don't speak Hebrew and have a limited study of the Torah). Secondly, I don't know what kind of conversion I'd want. Currently, I tend to agree a lot with Non-Orthodox Jews (Reform, Reconstructionist, etc). However, although Non-Orthodox Jews accept Orthodox conversions, Orthodox Jews don't accept non-Orthodox conversions. I couldn't lie to an Orthodox Rabbi about my beliefs just to convert. Converting to Orthodox Judaism is also especially difficult, as they discourage it the most out of any sect. And if a non-Orthodox Rabbi converts me, I wouldn't want to face prejudice from Orthodox Jews who say, "You're not a REAL Jew."

Even though one of God's commandments is to love the convert, they wouldn't see me as a legitimate convert and I might face bigotry.

If God is good and God is reasonable, he should accept my inability to believe in his existence.

Sorry Shrub, arguing for the existence of God is impossible and largely pointless, so I am staying agnostic.
And he does. You're not going to go to hell for not believing in God. But still, it isn't good.

Hmm, is Deism the same as Agnosticism? The principals sound very similar...

Hmm, is Deism the same as Agnosticism? The principals sound very similar...

Agnosticism does not believe in a god. Deism does.

Me? I'm happy as a Christian.

All religions are inherently good. Scientific studies have shown that religious people live happier, live longer, live healthier, don't do drugs, don't commit crimes, are more intelligent, more emotionally-stable, and have more friends. See if you can get access to the International Journal of the Psychology of Religion if you can.

I seriously doubt that you think Satanism is good. Especially before one reads the Satanic Bible.

All religions are based upon the same divine, immutable moral principles. Within the major religions, there are a large number of consistent morals and themes. The most significant is "the golden rule." Religions are merely the self-reflection of mankind's ethics and spirituality embodied in a system of beliefs.

I doubt that too. For I am pretty sure the morals and "the golden rule" of Satanism of the Left-hand path are not the same as the major religions of the right-hand path.

Satanism's Golden rule: Do unto others as they do unto you.
Satanism's Highest Law: Self-preservation/Lex Talionis
Satanism's Morals:
There is no god but Man.
Man has the right to live by his own law --
to live in the way that he wills to do:
to work as he will:
to play as he will:
to rest as he will.
to die when and how he will:

Man has the right to eat what he will:
to drink what he will:
to dwell where he will:
to move as he will on the face of the earth.

Man has the right to think what he will:
to speak what he will:
to write what he will:
to draw, paint, carve, etch, mould, build as he will:
to dress as he will.

Man has the right to love as he will: ---
take your fill and will of love as ye will,
when, where and with whom ye will!

Man has the right to resist those who would thwart these rights.

"Satanism has always favored the interests of the individual over the collective. "Do What Thou Wilt" should be taken literally!"

There are more Satanic principles, but I think I've said enough for now...

Convert to Satanism today!

I wish you good luck converting people to Deism, your going to need it.

Hail Satan!

~Satanic Reverend Medivh~

I am a deist. And I am asking anyone to covert.

The principles of my religion are as follows:
[list] God exists.

God is good.

God is both an abstract and material being.
All religions are based upon the same divine, immutable moral principles. [b]Labels and rituals separate us more than beliefs.
True moral acts are done regardless of rewards or punishments.
The clergy are sometimes good, but unnecessary.


Brother, I think your beliefs are crap, and I think the truth is nowhere to be found in Christianity...

But I also support your right to believe whatever you want.

Satanism's Golden rule: Do unto others as they do unto you.
Satanism's Highest Law: Self-preservation/Lex Talionis
Satanism's Morals:
There is no god but Man.
Man has the right to live by his own law --
to live in the way that he wills to do:
to work as he will:
to play as he will:
to rest as he will.
to die when and how he will:

Man has the right to eat what he will:
to drink what he will:
to dwell where he will:
to move as he will on the face of the earth.

Man has the right to think what he will:
to speak what he will:
to write what he will:
to draw, paint, carve, etch, mould, build as he will:
to dress as he will.

Man has the right to love as he will: ---
take your fill and will of love as ye will,
when, where and with whom ye will!

Man has the right to resist those who would thwart these rights.



I personally think followers of the "Church of Satan" if not all Satanists, take themselves way too seriously.
I have nothing against the morals above, and in fact, I agree with more of them than Christianity, certainly, but many people who do follow it, feel the need to express the very fact they follow Satanism, becuase its so taboo.
They get a kick out of others dislike for following a faith with such a "demonic" implications.
In fact, many of them simply enjoy the attention they receive, from making it public knowledge.

Even Anton LeVay would often mention the fact that much of the "rituals" the were seen in photographs, were only there becuase people like ritual, especially Christians.
It was all for publicities sake, and the true meaning of the religion, was those who wanted to know more.

Having said all that, the basic tenet, as I understand it, boils down to :

"Do what you will...but be cool."

Not so terrible, really.

[b]The clergy are sometimes good, but unnecessary.

Too ture. I'm happy were I am tho!

Interesting if not one sided view of Satanism. Having done some research on the topic myself, as I never condemn an ideology I don't have some understanding of, does Satanism not condone murder over trivial matters? As I recall, one of the eleven principle pillars of the ideology is that if someone is bothering you and they don't stop the first time you tell them to, they should be killed, no?

Oh, and the bit about religion making people smarter and healthier is bullshit too.

this religion just sounds like all the other religions bundled into one!
whats the use

btw: i think therefore i am is not a homonculus argument. the actual logic behind it sais that if i believed that nothing exists, no mind, no body, no nothing, then there must be some being to have that thought process/belief

Satanism's Golden rule: Do unto others as they do unto you.
Satanism's Highest Law: Self-preservation/Lex Talionis
Satanism's Morals:
There is no god but Man.
Man has the right to live by his own law --
to live in the way that he wills to do:
to work as he will:
to play as he will:
to rest as he will.
to die when and how he will:

Man has the right to eat what he will:
to drink what he will:
to dwell where he will:
to move as he will on the face of the earth.

Man has the right to think what he will:
to speak what he will:
to write what he will:
to draw, paint, carve, etch, mould, build as he will:
to dress as he will.

Man has the right to love as he will: ---
take your fill and will of love as ye will,
when, where and with whom ye will!

Man has the right to resist those who would thwart these rights.
~Satanic Reverend Medivh~
Hmm.. These tenents seem to exclude divinity?
If that's so, it looks like I've been - unvittingly - a Satanist all my life. And here I thought Satanist was a bunch of baby-killing, church-burning nazi-wannabe's...
Blame Hollywood & the American Christians for that. I'm a victim of propaganda

Hmm.. These tenents seem to exclude divinity?
If that's so, it looks like I've been - unvittingly - a Satanist all my life. And here I thought Satanist was a bunch of baby-killing, church-burning nazi-wannabe's...
Blame Hollywood & the American Christians for that. I'm a victim of propaganda

Well, in actuallity they are one necessary condition but I am fairly sure believing much of to all of that does not fufill sufficient conditions for being a satanist.

I seriously doubt that you think Satanism is good. Especially before one reads the Satanic Bible.
Saying "God doesn't exist," and "do what you want," does not constitute a religion.

Nor are LaVey's beliefs even Satanism, but rather, it's just Hedonism and Makavelianism, the anti-thesis to Buddhism.

Satanism's Golden rule: Do unto others as they do unto you.
"Eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"
-Mahatma Ghandi

You'd be scarce to find a great human being who exalted selfishness as a virtue. But you'd find many villains and demagogues who believed just that.

Satanism is the immature attempt of "being cool," "badass," and "above the law." It's childishness and selfishness disguised as spirituality. When bad things happen to you and you aren't strong enough to deal with them, where does Satanism leave you? Condemned and alone.

Mankind, according to psychology, naturally holds Satanic principles, holding his survival over everything else, and acting towards others in a way which is to his benefit. So, Satanism is not a "religion," persay. But preaching lack of a religion under a silly and inappropriately stereotypical label, with their beliefs often combined with witchcraft.

Even modern witchcraft ("Wicca"), in of itself, is not a religion. Because one sentence and a set of trendy, but unclearly defined rituals does not form a religion. Witchcraft in the past, yes. Or more organized sects, such as Gardinerian Wicca. But most Satanists and most Wiccans have no comprehension of magick (which is pretty much all their beliefs center around) and are superstitious to the point that they are delusional.

And finally, LaVey's Satanism was formed partially because he had emotional problems and partially because he wanted to make money, but mostly out of contempt with his own, limited personal experiences with fundamentalist Christianity.

In actuality, Satanists and some of those claiming to be "Christians," hold many of the very same principles.

EDIT: If you want to know what a dumbass douche-bag that Anton LaVey was, go here:
http://www.thefirewithin.dk/library/anton.htm

Taking the reverse side of things for a moment, Satanism is as much a religion as Christianity. It, like Christianity has a code of conduct one must follow. It has a central focus for worship. It has symbols, as does christianity. It may not have the volumes of writing behind it but I hardly think old, dead, men, having written about Christianity is what makes it a religion. Christianity also has magic and occult elements, they just aren't widely known. What distinguishes the two are age, scope, and size, little else.

While you may write their views off as childish, one could easily do the same for Christianity citing that God amounts to a quite large invisible friend in there eyes. In a sense, Christianity is equally as sefish, demanding unwavering loyalty and servitude to a being. Organization also is not a relevant consideration to whether something is a religion, just because there is no doctrine that requires gatherings, offerings, and group prayer does not automatically, as you would imply, make their faith less valid.

Interesting if not one sided view of Satanism. Having done some research on the topic myself, as I never condemn an ideology I don't have some understanding of. does Satanism not condone murder over trivial matters? As I recall, one of the nine principle pillars of the ideology is that if someone is bothering you and they don't stop the first time you tell them to, they should be killed, no?

Oh, and the bit about religion making people smarter and healthier is bullshit too.

First, the Satanic Bible and the CoS never say you should kill anyone. The closest thing to that is this line. "When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him." "Satanists do not advocate murder, however; this is often seen as urging the use of ritual magic to destroy an enemy, and they actively discourage criminal activity."

"A number of Satanists are involved in the military and law enforcement, and many are prepared to kill in self-defense, in the case of a serious threat to their own life or that of their loved ones. However, responsibility for ones actions, in particular towards the law, is stressed here."

""Love of life" is said to be the general theme of the Satanist as opposed to the abstinence or hatred of Christianity, yet within Satanic literature there frequently appears pessimistic statements about the angst of life; intelligent people are portrayed as suffering from their awareness."

Satanism advocates the Law of the Jungle, or Lex Talionis (Law of the Talon.) The current legal system is riddled with Judeo-Christian contradictions. The perpetrator of a crime is considered to be the victim, whereas the real victim of the crime is afforded no sympathy, and often sees the criminal escape justice with derisory sentencing. In nature, the undesirable and the pests are cast out, and Satanism believes that those who commit crimes must face the consequences of their actions through appropriate measures.

"Responsibility to the responsible"

~Satanic Reverend Medivh~

I am a deist. And I am asking anyone to covert.

I'm not a deist. And I'm asking any deists to shut up and leave me alone.

Yes, that was the line I was refering to. Even if for a moment I put aside the conotation between destroy and kill, how about one of the other eleven principles which calls for cruelty and and mercilessness to anyone who is not reverent enough to you on your property? I don't speak for everyone but I personally have issues with institutionalized brutality.

EDIT: And what does this ritualized magic actually do? Does it bring bad luck? Does it bring injury? Does it bring death?

i believe nearly the same but now i have i name for my faith, thanks :)
but i believe in reincarnation too

thanks for this nice list :)

Ever heard of Ayn Rand? Of course, not everyone would consider her "a great human being", but she did make a pretty good arguement for morality based on selfishness.

Well, you were half right, not everyone would consider her a great human being. ;)

You'd be scarce to find a great human being who exalted selfishness as a virtue.

Ever heard of Ayn Rand? Of course, not everyone would consider her "a great human being", but she did make a pretty good arguement for morality based on selfishness.

Ever heard of Ayn Rand? Of course, not everyone would consider her "a great human being", but she did make a pretty good arguement for morality based on selfishness.

She also made a case for women being universally superior to men.

Shes a nut.

She also made a case for women being universally superior to men.

Shes a nut.

She also continually mispronounced her own first name.

Taking the reverse side of things for a moment, Satanism is as much a religion as Christianity. It, like Christianity has a code of conduct one must follow. It has a central focus for worship. It has symbols, as does christianity. It may not have the volumes of writing behind it but I hardly think old, dead, men, having written about Christianity is what makes it a religion. Christianity also has magic and occult elements, they just aren't widely known. What distinguishes the two are age, scope, and size, little else.

While you may write their views off as childish, one could easily do the same for Christianity citing that God amounts to a quite large invisible friend in there eyes. In a sense, Christianity is equally as sefish, demanding unwavering loyalty and servitude to a being. Organization also is not a relevant consideration to whether something is a religion, just because there is no doctrine that requires gatherings, offerings, and group prayer does not automatically, as you would imply, make their faith less valid.
Satanism is purely Nihilism. It offers no advice, but common sense, moral principles that any sane person would already agree to, along with preaching the natural selfishness we have without religion.

Something which teaches common sense, selfishness, and purposelessness cannot be a religion.

First, the Satanic Bible and the CoS never say you should kill anyone. The closest thing to that is this line. "When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him." "Satanists do not advocate murder, however; this is often seen as urging the use of ritual magic to destroy an enemy, and they actively discourage criminal activity."
That's a rather metaphorical way of interpreting "destroy." Especially since I very much doubt that Anton LaVey knew a damn thing about magick or virtually any other Satanists. Oh, but like the other guy asked--I am also curious. What does this magick do? Does it kill?


"A number of Satanists are involved in the military and law enforcement, and many are prepared to kill in self-defense, in the case of a serious threat to their own life or that of their loved ones. However, responsibility for ones actions, in particular towards the law, is stressed here."

""Love of life" is said to be the general theme of the Satanist as opposed to the abstinence or hatred of Christianity, yet within Satanic literature there frequently appears pessimistic statements about the angst of life; intelligent people are portrayed as suffering from their awareness."
The "angst," of life. Angst. My very point about immaturity is demonstrated through that noun.


Satanism advocates the Law of the Jungle, or Lex Talionis (Law of the Talon.) The current legal system is riddled with Judeo-Christian contradictions. The perpetrator of a crime is considered to be the victim, whereas the real victim of the crime is afforded no sympathy, and often sees the criminal escape justice with derisory sentencing. In nature, the undesirable and the pests are cast out, and Satanism believes that those who commit crimes must face the consequences of their actions through appropriate measures.

"Responsibility to the responsible"

~Satanic Reverend Medivh~
It was because of Christian traditions that we even had a death penalty (remember Salem?). Today, it is Conservatives and some Christians who advocate keeping it that way or increasing those who can recieve the death penalty. And it has been opposed by seculars. The idea that Christians are "soft in crime," is a ridiculous idea, not just because it has no basis, but because Christianity and politics are two completely separate matters.

In a criminal justice system, you have to choose between "guilty until proven innocent," or "innocent until proven guilty."

Only in a criminal justice system of "guilty until proven innocent," can all criminals be caught. But in America, and most of the civilized world, we believe that it is better to run the risk of a criminal walking free than to punish an innocent man. Because, in the previous case, the government is not at fault because it was ignorant. In the latter case, it makes a decision without knowing all of the facts. Anton LaVey's essays are not only stolen from other sources, but it's all passion, no logic.

And, as I said before. If ANYONE wants to know why Anton LaVey was a douche-bag, go here:
http://www.thefirewithin.dk/library/anton.htm

Ever heard of Ayn Rand? Of course, not everyone would consider her "a great human being", but she did make a pretty good arguement for morality based on selfishness.
Her "arguments," were popularized through novels that laid out her theories in slippery slope stories. Modern philosophers and economists have brutally demolished her. Her followers are ignorant morons and businessmen trying to make a buck.

http://fapfap.org/whyimnotanobjectivist.gif

Satanism is purely Nihilism. It offers no advice, but common sense, moral principles that any sane person would already agree to, along with preaching the natural selfishness we have without religion.

Something which teaches common sense, selfishness, and purposelessness cannot be a religion. While it does teach selfishness to some extent, the rest of what you said simply isn't accurate. It has eleven guiding principles, some of which certainly aren't common sense, one of which being the "Destroy them" one. Another which dictates one must be brutal to ungrateful guests. It doesn't just preach selfishness, it preaches institutionalised cruelty that we need not have with religion or without it, hardly a moral principle anyone would agree to. I also disagree it teaches purposelesness. I believe technically it teaches you are the purpose.

I still say it is as much a religion as Christianity.

WARNING!!! Long Post.

Saying "God doesn't exist," and "do what you want," does not constitute a religion.

Nor are LaVey's beliefs even Satanism, but rather, it's just Hedonism and Makavelianism, the anti-thesis to Buddhism.

So, you saying "God does exist," makes it a religion. Haha. There's not any proof that God even exists in the first place. Satanism is a religion and a philosophy.

Your sadly mistaken, Satanism is one of the oldest religions. It has been around for Thousands of years and has even been traced back to the Roman times before the christian lord and savior "Jesus Christ" ever walked the Earth. (That's why I call/consider myself a Roman Satanist, but that's a topic for a different time.)

"Eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"
-Mahatma Ghandi

"Hate your enemies with a whole heart, and if a man smite you on one cheek, SMASH him on the other! He who turns the other cheek is a cowardly dog!"
-Anton LaVey

"Give blow for blow, scorn for scorn, doom for doom - with compound interest liberally added thereunto! Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, aye four-fold, a hundred-fold! Make yourself a Terror to your adversary, and when he goeth his way, he will possess much additional wisdom to ruminate over. Thus shall you make yourself respected in all the walks of life, and your spirit - your immortal spirit - shall live, not in an intangible paradise, but in the brains and sinews of those whose respect you have gained."

It would only make the weak and dumb blind. Satanism believes that those who commit crimes must face the consequences of their actions through appropriate measures.

"Survival of the Fittest/ Lex Talionis:"
"Satanism is an elitist religion. There is a saying in Satanism that "Satanists are born, not made." This means that Satanists already have certain characteristics, a particular mindset and way of looking at things that makes them Satanists. Not everyone can be a Satanist. Those who lack intelligence, do not take responsibility for their actions and believe the falsehoods that they are told can never hope to become Satanists, no matter how many Pentagram necklaces they buy or Black Metal albums they own."

"And as an elitist religion, Satanism advocates stratification of society, a form of human, social Darwinism. Those who by their actions and accomplishments strive to better their positions deserve recognition and advancement. Those who are happy to live as parasites and sponge off the creativity and achievements of others should, by their lack of action, be relegated to the bottom of the heap. As in nature, the strong survive while the weak perish, and this should be reflected in human society. What we mean by "weak" is NOT weakness of body, but weakness of character. Those who do nothing, deserve nothing. People should be judged on INDIVIDUAL merit alone."

You'd be scarce to find a great human being who exalted selfishness as a virtue. But you'd find many villains and demagogues who believed just that.

The same can be said about being selfless. You'd find many villains and demagogues who believe in being selfless. Example: Homicide bombers, Osama. 'nuff said.

Satanism’s deep roots in self-reliance and individualism do make it look like quite a selfish religion. But what is selfish? "Good" has often been defined by Christians as "selflessness". But is there really such a thing? People prioritize
things. Family, lovers, friends, sometimes people consider them more
important than themselves. But when it comes right down to it, nearly
if not EVERYTHING we do is selfish.
We love because we choose to love. We hate because we choose
to hate. We prioritize everything. The world DOES "revolve around
us", each and every one of us, individually. Reality is your reality.
Think about it! Many if not most “good deeds” are done out of selfishness,
for glory, or because the person worthy of the good deed was DEEMED
worthy! Everything we do is dictated by our own appreciation of our
peers and surroundings.
So when asked "Is Satanism Selfish?" I will say "Yes". But what
religions aren't? Christians preach to "love thy neighbor" and that
"Jesus died for your sins", but what is the real motivation behind
it? Eternal life. Is wanting to live forever a selfish thing? Sure
it is. I doubt most Christians are simply so because "Jesus died for
their sins". What's the point of following a faith if it's nothing
more than a few rules and some stories? Lust for "eternal life" and
fear of hell...The basis of Christian faith.
But if someone were to ask me "So you only care about yourself?"
I would have to say "No". It is true that you really do choose to
care for others, but with that aside and spoken for...care, appreciation,
love, respect, and friendship are human feelings or states of being
equally experienced by Satanists, if not moreso. The fact that I love
someone for my reasons doesn’t make my love any less true or sincere.
"Selfishness" is just a part of what we are, so why not get
that out, and live our lives as we see fit?

"Rational Self-Interest:"
"The most important factor in life is self-preservation and the continuation of one's life. Thus, the central factor in a person's universe is him/herself, and a Satanist never loses sight of this fundamental truth. This does not mean that a Satanist is an unfeeling, callous sociopath. If someone is of importance to the Satanist, they will be cherished, valued and protected, as losing them would harm their self-interest. Those who are of no interest to the Satanist, unless they prove otherwise, remain exactly that, of no interest. One's interests are best served by being happy and contented in one's life, so all endeavors that will bring about this state of affairs are actively pursued."

"Indulging One's Desires:"
"Central to the Satanic philosophy is vital self-indulgence. To deny one's true desires, be they carnal or sensual, leads to destructive repression. By giving free reign to one's desires, but not letting them lead to compulsion and/or addiction, allows one to lead the life one chooses, free from religiously and socially imposed feelings of guilt or sin. Being free to indulge your desires does not, however, mean that you have the right to impose your indulgences on others if they choose not to partake in them. Therefore, Satanism strictly prohibits (contrary to the traditional stereotype) rape, child molestation and the harming of animals."

Satanism is the immature attempt of "being cool," "badass," and "above the law." It's childishness and selfishness disguised as spirituality.

Here again is that last ditch effort to prove Satanism is nothing by saying "People become Satanist because it's cool and hip." False.

Nothing could be much farrier from the truth. Regarding "trendiness"...It is often assumed that someone is a Satanist just because it "looks cool", or because "evil is trendy". I remember a few encounters with people who assumed that of me. While it is unfortunate that many are "Pseudo Satanists", a "real" Satanist is a Satanist because he chooses to be, because it appeals to him or her, and because it grants them satisfaction in the end. "Trendy" itself is such a backwards and corrupted word these days anyway. "Trendy" used to be as positive as "cool". "Trendy" then became a derogatory adjective, and now, the act of fighting "trendiness" is just as "trendy" as being "trendy"! Confusing? Yes! The word must die.

From a chapter entitled: Nonconformity - Satanism's Greatest Weapon

"An individualist must always live in his own world, not one created by others standards.There will always be plenty of people who will share a nonconformist's world with him and be as happy for it as the maverick might be to have others share his."

"The very essence of Satanism is described by it's semantic designation. (The Other). A person who comfortably accepts the dictates of popular culture might be sympathetic or even enthused about Satanism, but he cannot be termed a Satanist. A true Satanist,even if unspoken, must be responsible for reaction and change."

As Satanists we prize our lives above all else. We rule our own lives and
build our own worlds. We do not allow our lives to be programmed to fit
into this acceptable society around us. We do not conform. We are
individuals!

There are many cliques and/or different groups that are all around this
planet and each one of them, more or less, has a set of "rules". People
don't believe that their own group has these so-called "rules", but they
are there and they are followed. Those "rules" don't apply to a TRUE
Satanist. We follow our own rules that come naturally with living. How
we behave, think, and live are NOT given to us from others.

Satanists, however do obey laws in other words, like your average citizen. We realize that there's no easy way to live by your own rules and enjoy your life if you end up arrested and spend your life in prison.

"Freedom from Herd Mentality and Conformity:"
"Satan has always been portrayed as the rebel, the one who bucks the trend. Satanism carries on this tradition by advocating rampant individuality. A Satanist will never allow himself to be sucked in by media induced knee jerk reactions. He will look at issues through reason and logic, and base his opinion on this alone. The majority of mankind act like sheep, being told what to think and what to do. This could be by their church, their peers, the government and the prevailing cultural milieu. The Satanist has no respect for trends or fashion, and will chose aesthetic preferences, codes of ethics and mode of thought without any reference to what is considered acceptable by those around him."

When bad things happen to you and you aren't strong enough to deal with them, where does Satanism leave you? Condemned and alone.

Everyone must deal with the consequences from their own actions, whether for good or ill.

Mankind, according to psychology, naturally holds Satanic principles, holding his survival over everything else, and acting towards others in a way which is to his benefit. So, Satanism is not a "religion," persay. But preaching lack of a religion under a silly and inappropriately stereotypical label, with their beliefs often combined with witchcraft.

"Atheism vs. Modern Satanism"
"There are also those in life who consider themselves an Atheist. They claim no god, no Satan, no deity what so ever. Ahhhh, so you say, why is Satanism called Satanism and not "Atheism" if they both denounce Satan/god?!?! Both of them are Atheistic in Nature... But, here is where we are not the same... Satanists claim themselves to be their own god, Atheists do not. Satanists do NOT have a problem bearing the name Satanist, Atheists refuse to have any label what so ever. Satanists live a certain lifestyle which is outlined in The Satanic Bible, Atheists do not. Satanists for the most part do not go around looking to cause fights, and put everyone down, they attempt to exercise religious tolerance, and of course, Atheists love to try and blame everyone for the world problems but themselves. Atheists love to argue/debate and create havoc!"

Even modern witchcraft ("Wicca"), in of itself, is not a religion. Because one sentence and a set of trendy, but unclearly defined rituals does not form a religion. Witchcraft in the past, yes. Or more organized sects, such as Gardinerian Wicca. But most Satanists and most Wiccans have no comprehension of magick (which is pretty much all their beliefs center around) and are superstitious to the point that they are delusional.

Wicca is not Satanism, and Satanism does not center around magic at all.

On the magic note, (since there's so many questions about it.)

I'll ask you this. What do think magic does? That's right, nothing.

Ritual magic uses symbolic representations of the desired result of the ritual. In other words... Ritual magic is about the same as punching a punching bag after someone made you mad while you were minding your own business earlier in the day.

Other Satanists may say that magic really works, that's fine. But I personally don't believe in magic because I never seen proof. Magic is not required for any part of Satanism.

And finally, LaVey's Satanism was formed partially because he had emotional problems and partially because he wanted to make money, but mostly out of contempt with his own, limited personal experiences with fundamentalist Christianity.

Hahahaha. I'll just answer that with a quote from LaVey.

"Yeah, well, I'm crazy, but I'm not stupid. I think we're all a bit crazy if we do anything that's deviant. I've studied a great deal on deviance and aberrant behavior. Most of the interesting people I've ever met have been deviant in one form or another."

In actuality, Satanists and some of those claiming to be "Christians," hold many of the very same principles.

Really? Well, LaVey always said that if the Christian faith was to stay around in the future it would have to become more like Satanism.

"The only way that Christianity can ever completely serve the needs of man is to become as Satanism is NOW."
-Anton LaVey

EDIT: If you want to know what a dumbass douche-bag that Anton LaVey was, go here:
http://www.thefirewithin.dk/library/anton.htm

After reading that website, I gotta say. LaVey did a good job keeping his life secret from everyone. Anyone who has some knowledge of Anton LaVey knows that he never wanted anyone to know who he was completely, and he still has kept his left secret. Even if that website is true, it will have no effect on Satanism. Anton LaVey may be strange/insane, but he's no idoit!

There's the info, and since this took a great deal of my time. I most likely won't be answering anymore questions about Satanism untill tomorrow.

Untill then, have a nice day. Hail Satan!

~Satanic Reverend Medivh~