NationStates Jolt Archive

This is written as a parallel to the current "question for pro-lifers" thread. It seems to me that people who want abortion to remain illegal can be very passionate about the abstract concept of the mom's "right" to abort the baby--lest the child be allegedly raised in unforgiving circumstances or the mom or dad's financial solvency be compromised--, but (in my limited experience) extremely few of you actually give time or money to helping people affected by the circumstances you're trying to help them avoid.

So, the question is, what have you done to help women in circumstances that allegedly drive them to aborting their unborn baby? For example, if your concern is that women would be forced to give up their work and live in poverty, what have you done to help women who are currently actually impoverished (for whatever reason)? In the alternative, if your concern is that the kid would allegedly otherwise have to be raised in an unhealthy environment and would have all sorts of problems, what have you done to help kids who are actually currently suffering from those circumstances (for whatever reason)?

I'm also wondering if anyone on either side who is passionate about their viewpoint, but does NOT help their cause in any other way would like to explain why you make that decision.

"So, the question is, what have you done to help women in circumstances that allegedly drive them to aborting their unborn baby? For example, if your concern is that women would be forced to give up their work and live in poverty, what have you done to help women who are currently actually impoverished (for whatever reason)? In the alternative, if your concern is that the kid would allegedly otherwise have to be raised in an unhealthy environment and would have all sorts of problems, what have you done to help kids who are actually currently suffering from those circumstances (for whatever reason)?"

I'm pro-choice. What have I done to help impovrished women/children and others? While I give money and my old things to charity whenever I can, I always leave a couple of dollars for a homeless person if they have a cup or something for donations, and when I get to college I'm going to join up with a volunteer group that helps the poor. You know, Habitat for Humanity, or maybe soup kitchens or something. I'm also a socialist, so I support progressive measures, and vote for politicians who support more social equality and social support.

Oh, and you made a typo in the first paragraph. It should read "It seems to me that people who want abortion to remain legal can be very passionate about the abstract concept of the mom's "right" to abort the baby--lest the child be allegedly raised in unforgiving circumstances or the mom or dad's financial solvency be compromised--, but (in my limited experience) extremely few of you actually give time or money to helping people affected by the circumstances you're trying to help them avoid."

*snip*
Huh? Who are you talking to? Supporters of abortion or anti-abortionists?

Habitat for Humanity, the Salvation Army, the Heifer Project (A global undertaking), as well as various Church and BSA fundraisers.

And in case you're wondering, I do not consider a zygote to be a sentient being.

Actually, it's much more valid for one of us asking you what you've done for adopted children than you asking us what we've done for impoverished women.

Huh? Who are you talking to? Supporters of abortion or anti-abortionists?
I was wondering the same thing, since it seems that the pro-lifers would have to answer to that more than the pro-choicers, who want to give women the freedom of choice and thus empowering them to have a baby in favourable circumstances, rather than punishing them, as it seems that what the pro-life lobby is attempting to do.

Actually, it's much more valid for one of us asking you what you've done for adopted children than you asking us what we've done for impoverished women.

Actually, neither question is more valid because neither question addresses the actual issue of abortion.

Actually, neither question is more valid because neither question addresses the actual issue of abortion.I'm taking a guess that a lot of children that were aborted would have been given away for adoption otherwise. Therefore, doing more for children in orphanages ... a heck, you're right. Neither really adresses the problem.

I was wondering the same thing, since it seems that the pro-lifers would have to answer to that more than the pro-choicers, who want to give women the freedom of choice and thus empowering them to have a baby in favourable circumstances, rather than punishing them, as it seems that what the pro-life lobby is attempting to do.

Ding, ding, ding, ding! We have a winner! :)

So, the question is, what have you done to help women in circumstances that allegedly drive them to aborting their unborn baby?
Errr, supporting abortion rights, obviously!

Actually, it's much more valid for one of us asking you what you've done for adopted children than you asking us what we've done for impoverished women.

I like that, Laerod.

Brians Test, you're making it sound as though we like to say we're Pro-Choice because it sounds cool.

I give to charities, I donate my old things, I give money to the homeless on the streets (unless they happen to have a cellphone).

But what can you do - besides support abortion rights, that is? A woman would get an abotion because they don't want the child. Do you want me to go up to a woman who doesn't want to be pregnant and say "hello, you don't want your kid so how can I help you today?" I think it's bad enough that they don't want to child, so why do they want the sympathy? But that's a selfish viewpoint, I guess.

If the woman doesn't want her potential child (note the 'potential' used instead of 'the'), I sincerely do not think money is going to help her. If she is in poverty and would not be able to produce funds for the child, is she likely to know how to use the money when she gets it? There are horror stories of parents who take money given to them and spend it on alcohol. Or maybe she wants to complete school. So you want me to give her a scholarship fund when she still might not be able to concentrate on her studies?

But if I ever hear about any charities and they happen to be looking for volunteers from my area, I'll go help them.

I'm also wondering if anyone on either side who is passionate about their viewpoint, but does NOT help their cause in any other way would like to explain why you make that decision.
Perhaps you would like to tell us about how you help the pro-life cause. Bombing abortion clinics, killing abortion doctors, supporting wars and the death penalty do not count.

Errr, supporting abortion rights, obviously!

^

Plus donating money food and clothing to charities when I can.

Not to mention, oh wait - I'm mentioning it now, I am very vocal to poor people (esecially those with kids already) that they should not bring kids into this world that they are unable to take care of ... OH and I support any local education projects that try to drive this point home.

Now... What do YOU do for those women that you wish to take choice from?

You're a middle aged female and you've just found out you're pregnant because of the man who raped you last week. According to some pro-lifers, it's okay for the government to force you to birth that child.

You're a teenager, and you've just found out that you're pregnant from your Uncle, who has been sexually molesting/raping you. According to some pro-lifers, it's okay for the government to force you to have that child.

I'm missing something here. I realize that abortion should not be used as a form of birth control, but in all honesty, no one should have to birth a child created by rape or incest. And a women's body is her own.

Keep it up and in a few years we'll be debating whether or not it's okay for the government to tell someone they have to lose their right to create life.

Some clarification is obviously needed. Maybe this will help.

Let's say that one of your arguments that abortion should remain legal is that you don't want kids to be forced into families that don't want them. There are plenty of kids now who are in serious need of love and positive role models. The question is, if you're sympathetic to people in this situation and therefore support legalized abortion, whether you have ever actually done anything to help kids in those sorts of situations NOW, not hypothetically.

Perhaps you believe that a reason women should keep their freedom of "choice" because if they were forced to have kids, it could potentially seriously compromise their economic welfare; instead of completing education, working, whatever etc., they have to take time to have a baby, be dependent on the government or society or whoever, etc. The question is, if you're so passionate about preventing women from hypothetically suffering from poverty and a lack of job skills, what are you doing now to help women who are actually, presently uneducated, unemployed, living below the poverty line, etc.?

The question is based on the premise that you're opposed to the illegalization of abortion because it would have all these negative ramifications and create all of these societial ills for people who would otherwise abort. I'm wondering, if you find these problems in society so repugnant, what are you doing to help people who are actually, presently afflicted by these problems--the problems of undereducation, neglect, depression, whatever etc.? Or are you only sympathetic to people who suffer these problems because it involves the birth of an unplanned kid?

Post something if this doesn't clear it up.

^

Plus donating money food and clothing to charities when I can.

Not to mention, oh wait - I'm mentioning it now, I am very vocal to poor people (esecially those with kids already) that they should not bring kids into this world that they are unable to take care of and support any local education projects that try to drive this point home.

Now... What do YOU do for those women that you wish to take choice from?

See my post in the "question for pro-lifers" thread.

First of all, how sad is the title of this thread?

There is no such thing as "abortion supporters"

There are people who are pro-choice and people who are Anti-choice. No one supports abortion, they do however support choice, while others don't.

See my post in the "question for pro-lifers" thread.


You can't copy and paste? I don't know where your post is in that thread.

First of all, how sad is the title of this thread?

There is no such thing as "abortion supporters"

There are people who are pro-choice and people who are Anti-choice. No one supports abortion, they do however support choice, while others don't.

Ok, but what about abortion doctors and staff? Overpopulationists?

Incidentally, I actually was thinking about calling you "pro-abortion", but held back because I didn't want to get into this semantical argument.

At least whomever started the pro-life thread called you pro-life and not anti-choice. Good on them

At least whomever started the pro-life thread called you pro-life and not anti-choice. Good on them

Ah, but it is "Anti-choice" to acknowledge them as "pro-life" is to say that a fetus is life. It only backs up their argument if you acknowledge them as "pro-life" I refuse to do so. Because by doing so, then if you're pro-choice, you validate them in saying you're a murderer or support murder.

I'm pro-choice, however my choice was to have both of my children when I got pregnant. I've never had an abortion. That is also pro-choice. But I respect the right of a woman to decide what she does with her body.

First of all, how sad is the title of this thread?

There is no such thing as "abortion supporters"

There are people who are pro-choice and people who are Anti-choice. No one supports abortion, they do however support choice, while others don't.
I support abortion. The more the better. Gets rid of the criminals and welfare mothers. I know that I'm not the only one on this board who thinks like this.

Ah, but it is "Anti-choice" to acknowledge them as "pro-life" is to say that a fetus is life. It only backs up their argument if you acknowledge them as "pro-life" I refuse to do so. Because by doing so, then if you're pro-choice, you validate them in saying you're a murderer or support murder.

I'm pro-choice, however my choice was to have both of my children when I got pregnant. I've never had an abortion. That is also pro-choice. But I respect the right of a woman to decide what she does with her body.


I just meant that the person who started the other thread actually had enough courtesy to call the the anti-abortionists "pro-life" like they like to be called so that they could try to foster anti-inflammatory dialogue with them while Brian did not have such courtesy and I wonder if he really wanted to have a discussion. Or was this whole thread created for flame-bait. Looks like it was teh latter as people have calmly and rationally expressed their views and any questions thrown back at Brian concerning what he has done to support the people he wishes to releive of their choice on abortion have been disregarded.

This is written as a parallel to the current "question for pro-lifers" thread. It seems to me that people who want abortion to remain illegal can be very passionate about the abstract concept of the mom's "right" to abort the baby--lest the child be allegedly raised in unforgiving circumstances or the mom or dad's financial solvency be compromised--, but (in my limited experience) extremely few of you actually give time or money to helping people affected by the circumstances you're trying to help them avoid.

So, the question is, what have you done to help women in circumstances that allegedly drive them to aborting their unborn baby? For example, if your concern is that women would be forced to give up their work and live in poverty, what have you done to help women who are currently actually impoverished (for whatever reason)? In the alternative, if your concern is that the kid would allegedly otherwise have to be raised in an unhealthy environment and would have all sorts of problems, what have you done to help kids who are actually currently suffering from those circumstances (for whatever reason)?

I'm also wondering if anyone on either side who is passionate about their viewpoint, but does NOT help their cause in any other way would like to explain why you make that decision.

I'm VERY helpful to single women who are impoverished...

I'm VERY helpful to single women who are impoverished...

Do tell.

At least whomever started the pro-life thread called you pro-life and not anti-choice. Good on them

Great. So, back to the original question... what have you done lately?

Do tell.

I was being flippant/innuendo laden. My apologies.

Great. So, back to the original question... what have you done lately?


I've already spelled that out. Interestingly enough - you haven't. hmmmmmmmm

Seriously, I hate babies. And that is the stance we should all take. Because these "abortion, atheist, creationism" threads have got to go. We've just have to stop taking them seriously. Now understand this, these people can't get it through their heads that they are wrong, so stop trying. This isn't giving up on everybody. This is giving up on people hopeless enough to think that their opinion on an internet forum matters. Just take the comedy option everytime, argue your idiotic point, garner a few laughs and these threads will disappear.

All those scenarios are reasons, and GOOD reasons. But what about this:

You are a 25 year old female with a long term boyfriend or even a husband. You have been using birth control because you do NOT want children. You get pregnant anyway. You think about it, talk it ovewr....whatever. You don't want a child. You should have the choice on terminating your pregnancy. Nobody else will have to live with that decision besides YOU. Luckily we have that choice. If abortion were to be made illegal, it wouldn't stop people from getting or giving them. It would simply make it dangerous and dirty.

I suggest watching "If These Walls Could Talk". Learn something.

I've already spelled that out. Interestingly enough - you haven't. hmmmmmmmm

Sumamba, you are truly awesome.

I am not going to create duplicate posts. I know that finding my aforementioned post under the thread titled "a question for pro-lifers." would require pouring through BOTH pages on that thread, and you're in here so you're obviously very short on time, so I am going to do you the favor of saving you the two seconds it would otherwise take to find that post and direct you to post #29, where I have already answered your question.

This is written as a parallel to the current "question for pro-lifers" thread. It seems to me that people who want abortion to remain illegal can be very passionate about the abstract concept of the mom's "right" to abort the baby--lest the child be allegedly raised in unforgiving circumstances or the mom or dad's financial solvency be compromised--, but (in my limited experience) extremely few of you actually give time or money to helping people affected by the circumstances you're trying to help them avoid.

So, the question is, what have you done to help women in circumstances that allegedly drive them to aborting their unborn baby? For example, if your concern is that women would be forced to give up their work and live in poverty, what have you done to help women who are currently actually impoverished (for whatever reason)? In the alternative, if your concern is that the kid would allegedly otherwise have to be raised in an unhealthy environment and would have all sorts of problems, what have you done to help kids who are actually currently suffering from those circumstances (for whatever reason)?

I'm also wondering if anyone on either side who is passionate about their viewpoint, but does NOT help their cause in any other way would like to explain why you make that decision.


You could argue this point for years and you will never get agreement. I know that you are only presenting your opinion, but at the end of the day the same question can be asked of you. I fully support pro choice. I do not agree with late term abortion, anything past 2-3 months shouldn't be allowed. I have never 'helped' any one in that position, because I don't know anyone who has been in that position. If this did happen to a girl I know I would of course help her seek out all options. Every circumstance is different.
Most people on either side of the discussion, like myself will never have actively done anything, but it still gives everyone the right to an opinion. I am sure you have participated in many threads from the Iraq war to the EU constitution. Have you fought in Iraq? Are you an EU citizen? Even if your answer to both was no I would still hear out your opinion, even if you had never actively done anything about it.

Accidents happen.

Sex is a blast, and not always done explicitly for Pro-creation.

Cope with it...

Having said that, I feel that the most important decision that a human can make is to decide wether or not to bring a child, into this often cruel world.

The average whitebread Conservative Christian is thier suburban homes, cant understand why anyone would NOT want to bring a child into this world, and thier opinions should be mostly ignored.

But, once again, I say that the choice to have children, is the most important one we get as humans, and no institution, religion, or form of government, should EVER have any say as to how an individual chooses.

Never ever.

There is no such thing as "abortion supporters"Unlike most pro-choicers, I do actually support abortion, certainly in my own case. I like sex, and I don't like, or want, children. While I take every precaution to prevent pregnancy, if an accident were to happen, I wouldn't even consider keeping the "baby", or even going to full-term with the pregnancy. As someone said on another thread, supporting abortion is not forcing people to get abortions - it is merely supporting their use, which is more than just being pro-choice, but less than thinking they ought to be compulsory. This adequately describes my viewpoint.

In terms of the original question, I gave a friend who wanted an abortion money towards her flight to England (abortion is still illegal here, though travelling to get one is perfectly legal) and offered to go with her (I didn't go in the end, as her boyfriend was with her, and with his being directly involved in the situation, it seemed best not to intrude). Also, I reguarly donate to charities for the less well off, homeless etc.