NationStates Jolt Archive

I think everyone on this site as probably been involved in an evolution vs creationism thread by now. Scientists say this, bible said that, etc...

But I would be interested to hear from people of other faiths. The Buddists, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc.. How does your faith speak of Creation? And how have said faiths adapted to the theories of Evolution?

On a different note, as many people on nationstates seems to have religious leanings, I think we should stop "taking the lords name in vain". From now on instead of saying God or G-d, lets use the word Mod :p . As long as Mod does not strike me down for this anyway. agreed?

*points wildly*

NOW SEE! IT'S NOT ME RESURRECTING THIS THREAD! NOT ME! NOT ME!

Lol. This has been debated a million times, but I'll state my position. I won't bother to support it because somebody will be there trying to ax it down.

Protestant Creationist.

*points wildly*

NOW SEE! IT'S NOT ME RESURRECTING THIS THREAD! NOT ME! NOT ME!

Lol. This has been debated a million times, but I'll state my position. I won't bother to support it because somebody will be there trying to ax it down.

Protestant Creationist.

:p has come up before? never seem to see these threads. But it would be nice to know what other religions think. As in none christian. I mean for Mods sake, christianity is not the only religion on this planet!

[QUOTE=Dragons Bay]snipQUOTE]

By the way your protestant, so i don't want to hear bible this bible taht.
so blah :D

:p has come up before? never seem to see these threads. But it would be nice to know what other religions think. As in none christian. I mean for Mods sake, christianity is not the only religion on this planet!

Yeah...to the point I'm so sick of them I need to get out a puke. But you can try again with the newcomers. :p This is so fascinating it never has a definite answer.

By the way your protestant, so i don't want to hear bible this bible taht.
so blah :D
If you choose to ignore the truth, so be it.

Usually I don't support Creationism, but I question Evolution. But no. Don't get me started. Please.

Now all we need is some non christian, non athiest types......
......
.....

:p has come up before? never seem to see these threads. But it would be nice to know what other religions think. As in none christian. I mean for Mods sake, christianity is not the only religion on this planet!
You are right. There are two religions on this planet. Christianity and everything else that isn´t christianity.

You are right. There are two religions on this planet. Christianity and everything else that isn´t christianity.

:rolleyes:

Although it is starting to appear that there is only 2 religions on nationstates... :(

Either that or Atheists and Christians are the only ones dumb enough to get entangled in an online origins debate.

I tried that once, there aren't that many people of other faiths in NS, and most of those don't really enjoy discussing topics like that....

I tried that once, there aren't that many people of other faiths in NS, and most of those don't really enjoy discussing topics like that.... Can't really blame them. Between Atheists and Christians you have teams that are numerous and, in many cases, fanatical. The last thing anyone wants is to have 95% of the population of the forum that discusses these topics to come down on them all at once simply for not being on one of the big two sides, which, lets face it, would be inevitable if they got roped into such a discussion with the Atheists telling them to abandon any such belief and the Christians telling them to change faith.

"Why they wanna see my spine, Mommy?
Why they wanna see my spine?
It's gonna hurt again Mommy, much worse than last time.

Am I gonna see God, Mommy, am I gonna die?
It really hurts mommy, am I gonna die?

Smile on Mighty Jesus...spinal meningitis got me down."

My religion is holy Thermodynamics. As a devout Thermodynamite, I believe in the first law: That matter and energy are never created or destroyed. That being unerring truth as it is written, I know that creation is an infidel hoax - for matter and energy have always existed and no creation was necessary. To suggest that there was a time before existence is heresy.

Ah, but what if there is an existense outside of time? And what if that is where the creator of time dwells?

God was a singularity.

To suggest that there was a time before existence is heresy.

Ah, but what if there is an existense outside of time? And what if that is where the creator of time dwells?

Ah, but what if there is an existense outside of time? And what if that is where the creator of time dwells?

Silly human. I am God and I offer my first reply to your post which precedes the post to which it was made in reply as proof. Cause and effect means nothing to me muhahahahaha *cough*...or Jolt is acting up. :confused:

Either that or Atheists and Christians are the only ones dumb enough to get entangled in an online origins debate.

Maybe they already know all creationist doctrines are superstitious nonsense.

Then again an infinite series of big-bangs and primevil soups isn't convincing either ... thermodynamically or otherwise.

Ah, but what if there is an existense outside of time? And what if that is where the creator of time dwells?

Friggin heretic.

...Then again an infinite series of big-bangs and primevil soups isn't convincing either ... thermodynamically or otherwise.

Since when has any religion been convincing? I believe in Holy Thermodynamics because it is a beautiful religion that gives me peace and my world meaning.

The origin of the Universe and the Evolution of life are two different problems.
Creation as opposed to natural physical phenomenon such as the Big Bang, and Intelligent Design (or intervention at an early stage) as opposed to Evolution.

The only question you have to ask yourself is how honest the person with the opinion is.
Religions dictate the way the universe was created and the way we came about.
Science says we don't know how it all started, but we're here to find out!

My religion is holy Thermodynamics. As a devout Thermodynamite, I believe in the first law: That matter and energy are never created or destroyed.

Does your religion also include the second law of thermodynamics? Cause that one states that heat always flows from a warm object to a cool object, never the reverse. If that process is allowed to go on indefinitely, all parts of the universe will evenually have the same amount of heat (a state refered to as "heat death"). The fact that this has not happened implies that this process has not been going on indefinitely, and therefore there was a beginning at some point.

:( should have titled it better then... This thread was to hear what other faiths have to say on the subject. NOT to prove who's right and who's wrong. Just to learn something new... :(

Silly human. I am God and I offer my first reply to your post which precedes the post to which it was made in reply as proof. Cause and effect means nothing to me muhahahahaha *cough*...or Jolt is acting up. :confused:

Hey, yeah. How the heck did you do that?

You're much too reasonable and persuasive to be posting in this thread.
That's probably the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me *sob*

The origin of the Universe and the Evolution of life are two different problems.
Creation as opposed to natural physical phenomenon such as the Big Bang, and Intelligent Design (or intervention at an early stage) as opposed to Evolution.

The only question you have to ask yourself is how honest the person with the opinion is.
Religions dictate the way the universe was created and the way we came about.
Science says we don't know how it all started, but we're here to find out!

You're much too reasonable and persuasive to be posting in this thread.

I'm a Buddhist.

There are a number of creation stories from Buddhist countries. However, generally these were tacked on from earlier stories.

Essentially modern evolutionary and cosmological* theory is quite compatable with Buddhism.
http://www.geocities.com/scimah/evolution.htm

* Some aspects of Buddhist cosmology may or may not be compatable, but the usual view is that it's not worth debating over.

This is a ridiculous debate, you are comparing apples with oranges. The sicentific view has been come to after many years of evidence and painstaking research and is therefore likely to give an accurate (at least until proven otherwise) solution to the question "how were we actually created" Religeous viewpoints, however are based on unsubstatiated beliefs which, although they provide a good framework for society and good moral vaules (something science cannot do) are hardly qualified to produce a definitive answer to the "big" question. Thank you

Hey, yeah. How the heck did you do that?

Somebody's friggin time master is deliberately messing with my head. Knock it off!

Does your religion also include the second law of thermodynamics? Cause that one states that heat always flows from a warm object to a cool object, never the reverse. If that process is allowed to go on indefinitely, all parts of the universe will evenually have the same amount of heat (a state refered to as "heat death"). The fact that this has not happened implies that this process has not been going on indefinitely, and therefore there was a beginning at some point.

That's why the universe is obviously cyclic. Entropy is a pussy and Thermodynamia kicks it's wimpy ass. So it is written.

That's why the universe is obviously cyclic. Entropy is a pussy and Thermodynamia kicks it's wimpy ass. So it is written.

You have a Holy Book? And it contains the word "pussy"?

You have a Holy Book? And it contains the word "pussy"?

Yes, and detailed schematics.

Yes, and detailed schematics.

And I thought Song of Solomon was racy . . .

LMAO. Well, if Jedi gets to be an official religion because enough people put it in a census*, why not Thermodynamia? Please just tell me you don't need magic glasses to read your Holy Book...

*Actually, i think that might be an urban myth.

I thought that was based on a survey done in the UK some time ago. I seem to remember reading about that on the BBC website, so not an urban myth. Funny, nonetheless... :)

LMAO. Well, if Jedi gets to be an official religion because enough people put it in a census*, why not Thermodynamia? Please just tell me you don't need magic glasses to read your Holy Book...

*Actually, i think that might be an urban myth.

"Friday was the crucifiction, Saturday, cremation under glass. The Ressurection was on Sunday, no correction, make that Monday, cuz Mondays when they come collect the trash."
-Firewater.

I thought that was based on a survey done in the UK some time ago. I seem to remember reading about that on the BBC website, so not an urban myth.

It was our last census, which they do every 10 years. And just because the BBC says so doesn't make it true. I still think it's probably a myth - everyone put it because people SAID it would make it an official religion. I'm guessing it won't be a tick box on the next census.

PS: I think we've gone someway off topic here, so I'll try to divert it back. Any other religions views on evolution...?

It was our last census, which they do every 10 years. And just because the BBC says so doesn't make it true.
You're right of course, but I'm more inclined to believe what BBC put on their website than say, the Sun... ;)

This is a ridiculous debate, you are comparing apples with oranges. The sicentific view has been come to after many years of evidence and painstaking research and is therefore likely to give an accurate (at least until proven otherwise) solution to the question "how were we actually created" Religeous viewpoints, however are based on unsubstatiated beliefs which, although they provide a good framework for society and good moral vaules (something science cannot do) are hardly qualified to produce a definitive answer to the "big" question. Thank you

think of it more like everyone has been comparing apples with oranges, but there are far more types of fruit out there, and for once i'd like to hear about bananas and mangos. This link gives some good info click (http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Creator-god)

think of it more like everyone has been comparing apples with oranges, but there are far more types of fruit out there, and for once i'd like to hear about bananas and mangos.

Calling all fruits!

Calling all fruits!

pretty much. :p . You can be a banana if you want. Phallic fruit :)
just added a link to the previous post if your interested.

pretty much. :p . You can be a banana if you want. Phallic fruit :)
just added a link to the previous post if your interested.

New thread topic idea: If origin theories were fruits, what kind of fruits would they be?

Creationism = apple (Garden of Eden reference)
Intelligent design = smaller, easier to swallow apple
Evolutionism = Banana (Apes as Ancestors reference)
Theistic evolutionism = banana painted red to look like apple
Thermodynamism = donut (cyclic universe reverence. Also thermodynamism is about as much an origins theory as donut is a fruit.)

New thread topic idea: If origin theories were fruits, what kind of fruits would they be?

Creationism = apple (Garden of Eden reference)
Intelligent design = smaller, easier to swallow apple
Evolutionism = Banana (Apes as Ancestors reference)
Theistic evolutionism = banana painted red to look like apple
Thermodynamism = donut (cyclic universe reverence. Also thermodynamism is about as much an origins theory as donut is a fruit.)

That was about the funniest and cleverest post I've read today.

That was about the funniest and cleverest post I've read today.

Why thank you, I'm really touched.

Seriously, go look up Wikipedia, they have relatively good, objective series of sites on different world religions.
You will find that the non-monotheistic (ie. not Christianity, Islam, Judaism) religions do not have a creation story, as it really doesnt matter. Buddhism and Hinduism have similar roots of a cyclical existence, but Hindus believe that there is a cyclical creation of the universe by Brahma (creator), followed by Vishnu (sustainer) and then destroyed by Shiva (destroyer). NB of course, they are a single godhead, divided into many forms.
Buddhism basically says that existence is cyclical and creation is not important, as the cycle of rebirth continues from one existence to the next. There are many god-like beings in Buddhism, all subject to the law of Dharma (rebirth) and there is no omnipotent creator god.
Taoists believe that ceation is a byproduct of the opposing forces of yin and yang, and that existence is a mere pattern in the chaos. There is no 'god' in taoism.
For the record, I grew up in a protestant (Anglican) family, and after a series of events, at about 15 years old I questioned Christianity and found it to be seriously lacking. I researched many religions and found that Buddhism was one in which I found most interesting. I am now a Buddhist (although not a 'good' devout, vegetarian, pacifist one) but with somewhat of a western slant on some of the ideas. If you travel to a Buddhist nation such as Thailand or Cambodia, you will see what Buddhism is for lay-people, and thats pretty much me.

Seriously, go look up Wikipedia, they have relatively good, objective series of sites on different world religions.
You will find that the non-monotheistic (ie. not Christianity, Islam, Judaism) religions do not have a creation story, as it really doesnt matter. Buddhism and Hinduism have similar roots of a cyclical existence, but Hindus believe that there is a cyclical creation of the universe by Brahma (creator), followed by Vishnu (sustainer) and then destroyed by Shiva (destroyer). NB of course, they are a single godhead, divided into many forms.
Buddhism basically says that existence is cyclical and creation is not important, as the cycle of rebirth continues from one existence to the next. There are many god-like beings in Buddhism, all subject to the law of Dharma (rebirth) and there is no omnipotent creator god.
Taoists believe that ceation is a byproduct of the opposing forces of yin and yang, and that existence is a mere pattern in the chaos. There is no 'god' in taoism.
For the record, I grew up in a protestant (Anglican) family, and after a series of events, at about 15 years old I questioned Christianity and found it to be seriously lacking. I researched many religions and found that Buddhism was one in which I found most interesting. I am now a Buddhist (although not a 'good' devout, vegetarian, pacifist one) but with somewhat of a western slant on some of the ideas. If you travel to a Buddhist nation such as Thailand or Cambodia, you will see what Buddhism is for lay-people, and thats pretty much me.

Would you say, then, that you have absolutely no interest in how this world came to be? Do you think that it doesn't matter, that it has little or no relevance on the way we ought to live today (even in terms of the survival of humanity)?

Slight aside. Please forgive me...

at about 15 years old I questioned Christianity and found it to be seriously lacking

Amazing how many people say this sort of thing. Since a lot of intelligent, academic scholars, amongst other clever people, still find Christianity to be perfectly satisfactory, I wonder if the problem is not with Christianity, but with the lack of explanation available to a 15 year old seeking answers. I take comments like this to be more of a condemnation of the churches' inability to teach properly than as a damnation of my faith.

Still, you know what they say - employ a teenager now, while they still know everything... :D

Please note Bargara, this is in no way a slight on yourself or your own intelligence. Yours was merely the post which set me thinking.

Would you say, then, that you have absolutely no interest in how this world came to be? Do you think that it doesn't matter, that it has little or no relevance on the way we ought to live today (even in terms of the survival of humanity)?
Hi Bruarong
As a science student (Oceanography and Geography Majors, 3rd year) yes, of course I have an interest in how the universe and world was created. Astronomy and theories on the beginnings of the universe ie big bang, are interesting and sometimes the physics is a bit over my head, but of course raise the question 'where did that come from - what caused it?' and in a sense, it doesnt really matter as what matters is what you do in the here and now.
I'm not sure on what you mean as to relevance on how we live today? especially on the survival of humanity?

and Xeropa, no worries mate, no offence taken. My questions mainly arose from the lack of compassion and goodwill, along with outright corruption and intolerance displayed by members of the church and within the school hierarchy. As an aside, again, I think that Jesus was a top bloke, and indeed a Bodhistdaffa (sp?) (an enlightened being who remains in this existence to teach others). Taken at a base level, Jesus' teachings were of compassion, tolerance and right action, and the records of what he actually said are very good teachings. However, the way in which Christianity was Romanised, doctrinated and evolved over the last 2000 years has resulted in very strange rituals and methods of teaching. The whole heaven and hell thing, along with a vengeful, unforgiving 'God', I just don't buy it. Have a look around, heaven and hell are right here on earth, karma and the cycle of rebirth take care of your past 'sins'.
Hmm, now I'm rambling, oh well, back to work. :)

The Hindu scriptures goes above and beyond evolution. It talks of innumerable material universes created and destroyed all the time. The duration of the material universe is limited. It is manifested in cycles of kalpas. A kalpa is a day of Brahma, and one day of Brahma consists of a thousand cycles of four yugas or ages: Satya, Treta, Dvapara and Kali. Satya yuga lasts 1,728,000 years. Treta-yuga lasts 1,296,000 years. Dvapara-yuga lasts 864,000 years. And finally Kali-yuga lasts 432,000 years. The Mahabaratha war was fought at the end of Treta yuga ( 5000 years ago, as per scriptures) after which the Kali yuga starts, in which we are living.

These four yugas, rotating a thousand times, comprise one day of Brahma, the creator god, and the same number comprise one night. So there is really nothing specific about actual creation of material life forms in this earth. From a theological POV, it really does not matter to a Hindu, how he attained this material body, by evolution or created instantly or even abiogenesis, because of the time scale involved.

Hindu scriptures (bonafide scriptures like Vedas, Bhagvad Gita, Srimad Bhagvatham and Upanishads) deal mostly with soul - the nature and liberation of which is the sole purpose of the scriptures, not how we got this material body. So I have no problems with evolution or even abiogenesis. I am still a devotee of God. It is more important for me to do good things and understand my soul's nature and liberate my soul instead of worrying about whether I got this material body evolved from an ape or not.

The Hindu scriptures goes above and beyond evolution. It talks of innumerable material universes created and destroyed all the time. The duration of the material universe is limited. It is manifested in cycles of kalpas. A kalpa is a day of Brahma, and one day of Brahma consists of a thousand cycles of four yugas or ages: Satya, Treta, Dvapara and Kali. Satya yuga lasts 1,728,000 years. Treta-yuga lasts 1,296,000 years. Dvapara-yuga lasts 864,000 years. And finally Kali-yuga lasts 432,000 years. The Mahabaratha war was fought at the end of Treta yuga ( 5000 years ago, as per scriptures) after which the Kali yuga starts, in which we are living.

These four yugas, rotating a thousand times, comprise one day of Brahma, the creator god, and the same number comprise one night. So there is really nothing specific about actual creation of material life forms in this earth. From a theological POV, it really does not matter to a Hindu, how he attained this material body, by evolution or created instantly or even abiogenesis, because of the time scale involved.

Hindu scriptures (bonafide scriptures like Vedas, Bhagvad Gita, Srimad Bhagvatham and Upanishads) deal mostly with soul - the nature and liberation of which is the sole purpose of the scriptures, not how we got this material body. So I have no problems with evolution or even abiogenesis. I am still a devotee of God. It is more important for me to do good things and understand my soul's nature and liberate my soul instead of worrying about whether I got this material body evolved from an ape or not.

Thanks. good interesting post.
Does that mean in India (assuming) most people accept evolution?


I also ask because an indian friend was drunk one night and told me what he thought about evolution. He thought the different peoples came from different apes. example: white=chimp, black=baboons, yellow=uragutan, etc...
Please tell me this is not common....

Thanks. good interesting post.
Does that mean in India (assuming) most people accept evolution?


Well, there is no way of knowing for sure what one billion people think. I can only talk from my experience and people do accept evolution when they are exposed to it, especially the educated ones and often times it does not conflict with their belief in God. That is because Hindu religion is so decentralised that people are allowed to take their own spiritual path instead of some pope or mullah telling him "Oh, no you should not do that, you should be doing this" etc..

Evolution is taught in science books and there is no mention of creationism/YEC/ID there and nobody complains because religion is taught at home and temples, not in school.

Frankly, it is very surprising for me that this is such a big issue in the US. This is not part of a public debate in India. Most people try to make a good living and make three meals a day, so you don't have time to be engaged in debates like these anyway. I was also surprised that there are so many debates about evolution Vs creationism in this board too. I suspect it is because the way the christian faith is built around the God created us 6000 years ago (the YEC thing), and they cannot give up that because that would make other parts of their faith also questionable, and that is why the religious right is protesting this and making a ruckus. Evolution and abiogenesis does discredits Christian creationism, but not my version of Hinduism.


I also ask because an indian friend was drunk one night and told me what he thought about evolution. He thought the different peoples came from different apes. example: white=chimp, black=baboons, yellow=uragutan, etc...
Please tell me this is not common....

No it is not common. It is not taught like that in schools.

I suspect he had too much to drink. :p

Laughed Out Fucking Loud,

I'm definitely gonna remember that one, I bet if scientists put it like that they'd bring over the entire bible belt,

Because chimps are cuter then Baboons so they still have a reason to feel superior! :) Problem solved.

BTW Buddism, Hindusim, Zoastrianism (and I think Sikhism) are all more concerned with spirituality and how a person live's their life now then physical matters. So there's nothing stopping people of those faiths from accepting evolution or the big bang.

HOWEVER

The Hindu theory of evolution,'s got something to do with a giant Cobra and a flood. This justy proves how much I know about my religion, since I know little more then that.

I think it has a lotus in it as well

yeah he probably was :p

I don't understand either why its big in the US. and i don't think its a christian thing, It's a US thing.

Laughed Out Fucking Loud,

I'm definitely gonna remember that one, I bet if scientists put it like that they'd bring over the entire bible belt,

Because chimps are cuter then Baboons so they still have a reason to feel superior! :) Problem solved.

BTW Buddism, Hindusim, Zoastrianism (and I think Sikhism) are all more concerned with spirituality and how a person live's their life now then physical matters. So there's nothing stopping people of those faiths from accepting evolution or the big bang.

HOWEVER

The Hindu theory of evolution,'s got something to do with a giant Cobra and a flood. This justy proves how much I know about my religion, since I know little more then that.

I think it has a lotus in it as well

I know. Can you imaging, he used his idea to try and explain "that's why black people are more agressive! they're descended from baboons!!" :confused:

I know. Can you imaging, he used his idea to try and explain "that's why black people are more agressive! they're descended from baboons!!" :confused:

Hey, now that is a theory worth pursuing ;)

Ask him what did the Gorillas evolve into then. And I think he is confusing Gibbons with Baboons. Baboon is not an ape, IIRC.

Acidosis,

I think you are talking about the purana about the milky ocean, the snake being used a rope and the mountain meru used to grind the ocean , with Asuras catching the head of the snake and Devas catching the tail and out of the ocean came all creation. That's a fascinating story which has many underlying concepts. The snake is said to represent maya (illusion) and the devas - good and asuras - evil and so on.