NationStates Jolt Archive

Were missing seeing justice being dealt out up close and personal. I would like to see public floggings bought back for minor crimes such as theft, fraud and assault. Anyone seeing this, and hearing the screams of say a civil servant, or insurance agent, or politician even after they have had their tie removed and shirt ripped from their back, then given a good twenty lashes with the knotted cat o nines, will think twice about committing the same crimes themselves. A good lesson for the kiddies too, who should be bought to wittness true reality which will make them look at crime in a new light.
Also public execution down at the local shopping centre square, gilluotine(sp) is still the most painless and humane way to execute a criminal.
Your thoughts?

but it demonstrates that the government accept violent acts...GREAT example for kids...idiot.

execution is defined in that it judges a person for their entire life on one mistake...and there are plenty of people who have died when they were innocent...

only people who cant control their emotions or have a problem where they enjoy the suffering of others would enjoy that. You'd have to be stupid to think that the right thing to do when something bad has happend is to do it back to them, thats not justice, its just satifaction...

It would also show kids that if they steal, lie and so on when they are older, they are going to feel extreme pain. Also, I don't think you've got any right to call Gessler or ne1 else an idiot just for airing their views and attempting to start up what is nowadays, a very viable debate.

Physical punishments (lashing, beating, death) are the hallmark of uncivilized people. I think you'll find Iran is the country you'll be most comfortable in.

but it demonstrates that the government accept violent acts...GREAT example for kids...idiot.

No, it demonstrates the government will use what the criminals dish out, on them, themselves. A government owes its law abiding taxpayers protection, as its laws prevent people seeking out their own mob justice, I see with sad views such as your own, growing vigilantism in citys, as criminals emboldened by soft idiotic civil libertarians such as yourself, creating greater mayhem and violence.

Whats more important, kids seeing criminal scum executed, or criminals set free killing them?
Maybe when it happens to you, in some form of crime, the penny will drop...hopefully. :rolleyes:

You might like Iran, then. Thats the kind of thing they do there.

If you did it in any western or democratic nation, the amount of protest that would appear at every public flogging by people against barbaric punishments would cause it to disapear pretty quickly. That's if the politicians want to keep their jobs.

No, it demonstrates the government will use what the criminals dish out, on them, themselves. A government owes its law abiding taxpayers protection, as its laws prevent people seeking out their own mob justice, I see with sad views such as your own, growing vigilantism in citys, as criminals emboldened by soft idiotic civil libertarians such as yourself, creating greater mayhem and violence.

Whats more important, kids seeing criminal scum executed, or criminals set free killing them?
Maybe when it happens to you, in some form of crime, the penny will drop...hopefully. :rolleyes:

I think someone should tackle you then next time you jaywalk, and knock a coupla teeth out.

Physical punishments (lashing, beating, death) are the hallmark of uncivilized people. I think you'll find Iran is the country you'll be most comfortable in.

If it made my kids safer from criminals, I would have no problem moving there.
You stay in your nice civilised country that regularly fails to punish crims correctly, and encoursages youngsters to be the next generation of adult criminals with soft or no deterrants.

I think someone should tackle you then next time you jaywalk, and knock a coupla teeth out.
I think someone should knock a couple of your teeth out just for the hell of it. :rolleyes:

If it made my kids safer from criminals, I would have no problem moving there.
You stay in your nice civilised country that regularly fails to punish crims correctly, and encoursages youngsters to be the next generation of adult criminals with soft or no deterrants.

And what if one of your kids was executed for a crime then afterwards you found out someone else did it? "oh, sorry about that- too late for him though"

Still feel as pro-death penalty then?

You might like Iran, then. Thats the kind of thing they do there.
If you did it in any western or democratic nation, the amount of protest that would appear at every public flogging by people against barbaric punishments would cause it to disapear pretty quickly. That's if the politicians want to keep their jobs.

Do you really think so? I reckon the rent a protest mob would be overwhelmed by the public support for the executions.

And what if one of your kids was executed for a crime then afterwards you found out someone else did it? "oh, sorry about that- too late for him though"
Still feel as pro-death penalty then?

An unlikely scenario, the libertarians like to bring up as likely :rolleyes:

It would also show kids that if they steal, lie and so on when they are older, they are going to feel extreme pain. Also, I don't think you've got any right to call Gessler or ne1 else an idiot just for airing their views and attempting to start up what is nowadays, a very viable debate.
Thankyou, and the Left are always like this, they call themselves the voice of reason and more intelligent, but if you go against them, they spew hatred and bile on you.Their like little children.

I think someone should knock a couple of your teeth out just for the hell of it. :rolleyes:


Good.

Now we know where each other stand.

You'd like public executions and floggings becuase it would serve your ego, is that it?

You'd like to see them dirty criminals get whats comin to em, is that it?

Or maybe it goes as far as you'd like to see the Government perform these kinds of things becuase you actually believe it would be some kind of deterrent to crime, as if this kind of thing hasnt existed since the dawn of time, and maybe...just maybe..theres a reason most civilized nations dont do that kind of thing anymore?

Or was this thread invented just so you could spout off insane crap, to invite flaming such as this?

[QUOTE=Eastern Gondor]execution is defined in that it judges a person for their entire life on one mistake...and there are plenty of people who have died when they were innocent...

Its likely their entire life has been leading to this mistake, their greatest to them, in being caught by the law.
The only thing most crims ever regret is getting caught. Trust me, they are nothing but scum.


only people who cant control their emotions or have a problem where they enjoy the suffering of others would enjoy that.

Or people who like seeing justice.



You'd have to be stupid to think that the right thing to do when something bad has happend is to do it back to them, thats not justice, its just satifaction...

You would have to be stupid to view capital punishment in such a childlike way.

An unlikely scenario, the libertarians like to bring up as likely :rolleyes:

Libertarian? Nice label- easy to dismiss a real agrument that way instead of dealing with the issue.

Newsflash: Miscarriages of justice happen ALL the time. The Guilford 4, the Birmingham 6- by your rational, these innocent men would have been executed for crimes they didn't commit.

Its been proven that this type of punishment is less effective than rehabilitation of criminals. Much more satisfying perhaps, but far less effective. Therefore, it boils down to whether you are an emotional or a logical person. The emotional person may find that they preffer satisfaction or "justice" whereas the logical one will find that what really matters is which one is more effective at lowering crime rate.

[QUOTE=BackwoodsSquatches]Good.
Now we know where each other stand.

Yes, I stand for justice, you dont.

You'd like public executions and floggings becuase it would serve your ego, is that it?

No, to see the satisfaction on peoples faces.

You'd like to see them dirty criminals get whats comin to em, is that it?

Yes. Oh yes. You dont know much about criminals do you?

Or maybe it goes as far as you'd like to see the Government perform these kinds of things becuase you actually believe it would be some kind of deterrent to crime, as if this kind of thing hasnt existed since the dawn of time, and maybe...just maybe..theres a reason most civilized nations dont do that kind of thing anymore?

Civilisation wouldnt have made it this far, if our ancestors had been as soft as your kind.

Or was this thread invented just so you could spout off insane crap, to invite flaming such as this?

No, I am ardently in favour of capital punishment, and the more the better, nothing would make me happier than seeing criminal scum executed regularly on the weekend, down at the local park or mall, just think, a society that can live without fear and in freedom, safe in the knowlege that their government is protecting them like it is supposed to, crims do not deserve to breathe the same air as us, they are nothing but scum.
If you want to flame them this shows your own maturity, or lack of it.

Were missing seeing justice being dealt out up close and personal. I would like to see public floggings bought back for minor crimes such as theft, fraud and assault. Anyone seeing this, and hearing the screams of say a civil servant, or insurance agent, or politician even after they have had their tie removed and shirt ripped from their back, then given a good twenty lashes with the knotted cat o nines, will think twice about committing the same crimes themselves. A good lesson for the kiddies too, who should be bought to wittness true reality which will make them look at crime in a new light.
Also public execution down at the local shopping centre square, gilluotine(sp) is still the most painless and humane way to execute a criminal.
Your thoughts?

Um.. idiot, there are more civilized forms of justice..

Go live in Iran.. a world where beheadings are the norm.. idiot

[QUOTE]

Yes, I stand for justice, you dont.

Im all for justice, but making people witness beatings for trivial crimes makes you a fascist.
If thats what you call justice, you can keep it.


No, to see the satisfaction on peoples faces.

I dont think you'd get much of that.




Yes. Oh yes. You dont know much about criminals do you?[/quote

Oh please enlightened one...share with me your wisdom of the criminal mind.



[quote] Civilisation wouldnt have made it this far, if our ancestors had been as soft as your kind.

You dont know anything about "my kind" or much of anything else, I suspect.
If you think me some sort of pacifist, you'd be sorely mistaken if we met.



No, I am ardently in favour of capital punishment, and the more the better, nothing would make me happier than seeing criminal scum executed regularly on the weekend, down at the local park or mall, just think, a society that can live without fear and in freedom, safe in the knowlege that their government is protecting them like it is supposed to, crims do not deserve to breathe the same air as us, they are nothing but scum.
If you want to flame them this shows your own maturity, or lack of it.

No..you would want to see a Government that can take you from your home, beat the shit out of you for commitng a minor crime, and not being able to be held accountable for it.

Your either :

a) Trolling.

b) Completely off your rocker

c) Some sort of Neo-Nazi, fascist right wing nutbag.

Were missing seeing justice being dealt out up close and personal. I would like to see public floggings bought back for minor crimes such as theft, fraud and assault. Anyone seeing this, and hearing the screams of say a civil servant, or insurance agent, or politician even after they have had their tie removed and shirt ripped from their back, then given a good twenty lashes with the knotted cat o nines, will think twice about committing the same crimes themselves. A good lesson for the kiddies too, who should be bought to wittness true reality which will make them look at crime in a new light.
Also public execution down at the local shopping centre square, gilluotine(sp) is still the most painless and humane way to execute a criminal.
Your thoughts?
This pathetic arguement have been going round for years.
Watching public executions didn't stop crime in pre-victorian times it just hardens the viewer to violence making more violent crime more likely.

Also consider if you will be exceuted for minor crimes why would you leave a witness alive. every robbery would turn into a slaughter.

That you don't even acknowledge the possibility of people being found incorrectly guilty just shows how little you've thought this through or how totally disrespectful of the lives of others that you are.

I name you TROLL sir! (or madam, but women are rarely this stupid)

Physical punishments (lashing, beating, death) are the hallmark of uncivilized people. I think you'll find Iran is the country you'll be most comfortable in.
I agree.

Whats more important, kids seeing criminal scum executed, or criminals set free killing them?

Maybe when it happens to you, in some form of crime, the penny will drop...hopefully. :rolleyes:
That's very incendiary of you. So the only two choices are either executing the criminals or setting them free? Are you against prisons?

I have been a victim of crime. That doesn't mean I should let my experience turn the country into a thugocracy.

*Holds back urge to flame you all*

Gessler, do you really think Executions in general are an effective deterant against crime? Most crime which is punished by execution in the States is spur fo the moment stuff, people get mad and hit each other. It escalates, and suddenly a gun goes off, not planned to go like that, but the bodies chemicals make Humans do crazy things sometimes. You can't deter people from a crime they didnt plan to commit.
Secondly, I'm from England, we had masses of Public Executions in Ye Olde Times, because people thought the way you do: "If kiddies see them die for what they have done, they will not do it themselves'". This raises two issues to me. First, it obviously didnt work, simply because we had to employ the death penalty for so long so there were clearly still criminals arround despite the executions being totally public. Also, surely what you are proposing is intended to turn is into an afraid society, abiding by the law not because we know that what it stands for is good and right, but because we are afraid of the punishment. In my eyes, that just aint right.

And by the way, before you launch into a rant at me about where I stand, and whatever else you can come up with, I do know what it feels like to be efected by criminals close up, my Mother and Father were both killed within 3 weeks of each other, and I am proud of the fact that I have never wished any physical harm upon the two people who commited the crime. Don't even think about saying "You obviously didn't love your parents", because from your style fo argument that seams very likely.

Finnaly, do you not think it is truly sickening to say something like this?

Quote:
You'd like public executions and floggings becuase it would serve your ego, is that it?



No, to see the satisfaction on peoples faces.


...

Civilisation wouldnt have made it this far, if our ancestors had been as soft as your kind.

And if Monkeys didn't like Banana's so much they would have invented the wheel and we would live in the jungle. It happens.

Um.. idiot, there are more civilized forms of justice..

Go live in Iran.. a world where beheadings are the norm.. idiot

Hur hur. Idiot. Hyuk!

Off that tangent...

Having been around enough criminals working in a bail recovery team (and I'm only 20. Great stories for my grandkids, tell you what) for a good while, I can say with certainty that Gessler is right about one thing: Most criminals are scum. Half these meth-heads, wife-beaters and the like are the sort that won't ever change. I'm sure a good bunch of you know this.

Personally, trivialities should be met with the standard system we have now - but regarding those who commit crimes of a much more serious nature (more importantly, crimes with a considerably "hurt" victim, such as rapists, molesters, big time drug dealers [they can hurt a community pretty badly as the addicts start pouring in] etc), I wouldn't mind having them publically humiliated - if for no other reason than to add a much more "effective" slap on the wrist than a jail cell where really, they learn how not to get caught the next time.

Money spent on rehabilitation is generally wasted and our jails are crowded. This won't solve the issue - but dammit, if half the city sees a particular rapist getting wheeled around town with a sign reading, "Rapist" with a loudspeaker blaring out the details of the man's crime, at least the people themselves will recognize the face in the future than otherwise.

Just my opinion.

*goes back to the worship of Baal and the other goat gods*

a) Trolling.

Agreed.

i'd love to continue this battle of wits with you, but its clear you are unarmed.

Do you really think so? I reckon the rent a protest mob would be overwhelmed by the public support for the executions.
You're delusional if you think that people who think like you are in the majority.

Your either :

a) Trolling.

b) Completely off your rocker

c) Some sort of Neo-Nazi, fascist right wing nutbag.
Godwin's law!

OK, well lets see. I agree with Gessler because well look at the past. The past civilisations that had public executions[floggings, public humiliation, etc.] were not brought down by these things. What do you think they were used as? They were used as a deterrant towards crimes ALL of them. Even in the bible it says to follow mans law along with christs law. And it says do unto others as they do to you. Call me a facist, idiot, whatever but i still dont see what ya'll have against public deturrents against crime.
If you can think of a better way why not share it with the rest of us?

I agree with Gessler because well look at the past. The past civilisations that had public executions[floggings, public humiliation, etc.] were not brought down by these things.

Point in question: "The Terror" ring any bells.

And what has the Bible got to do with anything? Bible says a lotta things.

Hur hur. Idiot. Hyuk!

Off that tangent...

Having been around enough criminals working in a bail recovery team (and I'm only 20. Great stories for my grandkids, tell you what) for a good while, I can say with certainty that Gessler is right about one thing: Most criminals are scum. Half these meth-heads, wife-beaters and the like are the sort that won't ever change. I'm sure a good bunch of you know this.

Personally, trivialities should be met with the standard system we have now - but regarding those who commit crimes of a much more serious nature (more importantly, crimes with a considerably "hurt" victim, such as rapists, molesters, big time drug dealers [they can hurt a community pretty badly as the addicts start pouring in] etc), I wouldn't mind having them publically humiliated - if for no other reason than to add a much more "effective" slap on the wrist than a jail cell where really, they learn how not to get caught the next time.

Money spent on rehabilitation is generally wasted and our jails are crowded. This won't solve the issue - but dammit, if half the city sees a particular rapist getting wheeled around town with a sign reading, "Rapist" with a loudspeaker blaring out the details of the man's crime, at least the people themselves will recognize the face in the future than otherwise.

Just my opinion.

*goes back to the worship of Baal and the other goat gods*
I don't think anyone disagrees. These people ARE scum but be don't need to drag them around the town on a cart. We have TV and the papers. We can publish the reports of what they did and show their pictures and hey! we do but it doesn't change anything. People forget, criminals move. Lock them up for a very very long time and they can't commit crimes. Stop locking up those people who have commited silly minor crimes like not paying parking fines and there'll be space for them.

Behaving in manor as violent as they do just demonstrates we have the potential to be as bad as them.

Life in solitary confinement would be a pretty extreme deterant if you ask me...It ticks all the boxes for everyone! They are away from the public. They are suffering for their crime. And they are going to die in prison.

How can you argue against it? Of course, it should only happen to people who either rape or are Serial killers.

Were missing seeing justice being dealt out up close and personal. I would like to see public floggings bought back for minor crimes such as theft, fraud and assault. Anyone seeing this, and hearing the screams of say a civil servant, or insurance agent, or politician even after they have had their tie removed and shirt ripped from their back, then given a good twenty lashes with the knotted cat o nines, will think twice about committing the same crimes themselves. A good lesson for the kiddies too, who should be bought to wittness true reality which will make them look at crime in a new light.
Also public execution down at the local shopping centre square, gilluotine(sp) is still the most painless and humane way to execute a criminal.
Your thoughts?

Please tell me this is irony or sarcasm, please. :(

OK, well lets see. I agree with Gessler because well look at the past. The past civilisations that had public executions[floggings, public humiliation, etc.] were not brought down by these things. What do you think they were used as? They were used as a deterrant towards crimes ALL of them. Even in the bible it says to follow mans law along with christs law. And it says do unto others as they do to you. Call me a facist, idiot, whatever but i still dont see what ya'll have against public deturrents against crime.
If you can think of a better way why not share it with the rest of us?

As a Pagan I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure the bible says "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

meaning treat others as you would like to be treated.
If you fancy your child being publicaly beaten because she carried out a dare to steal a lipstick then Iran is defintely for you but don't mis-quote the bible there :rolleyes:

And it says do unto others as they do to you

No, it does not. It says "Do to others as you would have them do to you". Or, in a much simpler translation: "Do to others as you want them to do to you."

That's Luke 6:31

You misquoted it and misinterpreted it in such a profound way that you actually claimed it said the opposite of what it does.

Even in the bible it says to follow mans law along with christs law. And it says do unto others as they do to you.

Whoa... Worst case of misquoting ever. The bible says to do onto others as you would have them do onto you; a complete destruction of the "Eye for Eye" train of thought.

On another issue, though, what makes you think a life in solitary confinement is any better than death? It seems far worse to me. What value is your life when all it does is prolong your stay?

My suggestion? Reprogramming. Shock treatment for personality altering has been around for some while, and I'm sure that both socially and economically it would be a benefit to have the person wiped and placed into work again.

The reason why "criminals" (remembering that this label has no existence independent from those who use it) are not to be exposed to dehumiliating or lethal punishments in our civilizations, is the concept of universal human rights that was developed during the enlightenment era mainly by John Locke, Jean Jacques-Rosseau and Immanuel Kant. The experience of monarch disposal led to the insight, that every concept of human rights (e.g. like in the ancient greece) that isn't universal is corrupt.
The fact that you think that you will never commit a crime, doesn't mean that you are safe from prosecution.

Were missing seeing justice being dealt out up close and personal. I would like to see public floggings bought back for minor crimes such as theft, fraud and assault. Anyone seeing this, and hearing the screams of say a civil servant, or insurance agent, or politician even after they have had their tie removed and shirt ripped from their back, then given a good twenty lashes with the knotted cat o nines, will think twice about committing the same crimes themselves. A good lesson for the kiddies too, who should be bought to wittness true reality which will make them look at crime in a new light.
Also public execution down at the local shopping centre square, gilluotine(sp) is still the most painless and humane way to execute a criminal.
Your thoughts?


See the problem is, Gessler, it all depends on what you define as a crime. I for example would love to criminalise far-rightist views, which by this and your pro-Hitler thread you show yourself to have. I would have little problem with the rounding up of skinheads and them being given a good kicking in the middle of town, before being show trialed and hung by their feet like Il Duce. How's that sound to you?

Public execution is not justice, it's revenge.

Putting aside the phillosophies of justice and retribution for a moment. Do you really trust the government to start killing people? The US government made a habit of executing communists and trade union advocates in the early 20th century. Executions are a great way to get rid of critics. In addition, the fact is our court system is racist and classist. Wealthy white criminals would stand a far better chance of retaining their lives than poor black criminals would. Out justice system is far from perfect and execution is permanent.

Punishment really isn't that much of a deterrent.
Most people committing crimes expect to get away without being caught.

History shows us that even when punishments have been severe for
even low grade crime there have been continuously high levels of crime.

The are no civilized countries where state execution is allowed
and none where public or private beatings or floggings are practiced.
The principle definition here being used of course is that a civilized country
does not practice these things so where a country does use them it
marks that country out as not being civilized.

Countries that do execute violent offenders seem to not only, not have a
lower level of violent crime but actually seem to have higher levels of
violent crime than countries that do not have such barbaric state practices.

Execution and physical punishments of criminals belong to the childhood of
humanity, the same type of child who would pull the wings off flies.

My message to those who support such things,
grow up.


If you won't or can't grow up, then either go outside and play or
sit still, don't fidget and don't interrupt the grown ups.

If you won't or can't grow up, then either go outside and play or
sit still, don't fidget and don't interrupt the grown ups.

LOL :p
I wish I'd said that

Its likely their entire life has been leading to this mistake, their greatest to them, in being caught by the law.
The only thing most crims ever regret is getting caught. Trust me, they are nothing but scum.

So you are not actually punishing them for the crime, you are punishing them for getting caught.

Not exactly my definition of justice.

And in cases where the crime merits corporal punishment, either by flogging or mutilation, the punished would probably just harbour more resentment to society. And because they have been caught and punished so severly fuirst time round they are going top be even more difficult to catch.

Or people who like seeing justice.

People who like seeing justice would see it as barbaric.

People who like seeing revenge on the other hand...


You would have to be stupid to view capital punishment in such a childlike way.

Said the pot to the kettle.

Newsflash: Miscarriages of justice happen ALL the time. The Guilford 4, the Birmingham 6- by your rational, these innocent men would have been executed for crimes they didn't commit.

The Cambrige two...



Yes, I stand for justice, you dont.

Nop, you stand for revenge

No, to see the satisfaction on peoples faces.

You are one sick puppy, wanting to turn us into a society of sadists. Delighting in the pain and suffering of others

Civilisation wouldnt have made it this far, if our ancestors had been as soft as your kind.

Do you you have proof for this assertion?

No, I am ardently in favour of capital punishment, and the more the better, nothing would make me happier than seeing criminal scum executed regularly on the weekend, down at the local park or mall,

Out of interest, what would be the least severe crime that would merit capital punishment?

just think, a society that can live without fear and in freedom,

Yep. There is nothing more comfortable than knowing that criminals will be executed reguarly (the more the better remember) and publicly.

Though you seem to know why public executions were started in the first place. It wasn't to decrease fear, but to increase it.

safe in the knowlege that their government is protecting them like it is supposed to, crims do not deserve to breathe the same air as us, they are nothing but scum.

Scum rises to the top remember.

(I know I'm probably going to break Godwin's law, but I'll get to that later.)

Though what you just said is typical of authoritarian and fascist regimes. Pick a scapegoat (Jews/Communists/Saboteurs/Criminals, in this case), assert they are subhuman and not worthy of life or decent treatment. Then punish the fuck out of them and tighten your social control on the populace.


Godwin's law!

...unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your point of view) doesn't seem to apply on NS.

Public execution is not justice, it's revenge.

*claps*

Its been proven that this type of punishment is less effective than rehabilitation of criminals. Much more satisfying perhaps, but far less effective. Therefore, it boils down to whether you are an emotional or a logical person. The emotional person may find that they preffer satisfaction or "justice" whereas the logical one will find that what really matters is which one is more effective at lowering crime rate.

I'd like to agree with your argument, but the fact is, no it has not. What has been found is that it is impossible to rehabilitate a criminal. Only they can do that. Nice thoughts, but no cigar.

There is actually a legitimate point to be made here, but it seems to have been lost in the trolling and backbiting. The human body learns through the negative feedback of pain quite effectively, so there is indeed a case to be made for the scientific application of pain as a possible deterrent for criminal and antisocial behavior.

It's equally obvious that our current systems of punishment are considered nothing of the sort by the hardcore criminal element, who seem to accept a soft and pleasant visit to prison to be some sort of vindication for 'getting away with it'. Kinda like the reaction we get when we delete trollers and spammers, and they just slap out a new nation and continue it here.

Officially, I'll add this. Gessler, get back to your core point and defend it in a non-trolling way, and you might have a legitimate point or two to make. The rest of you, stop calling him an idiot just because you disagree with his core premise, or locks and official warnings will start flying.

~ Frisbeeteria ~
NationStates Game Moderator
The One-Stop Rules Shop

They could bring back public executions...or...they could bring back 8-Track Tapes...

I prefer the latter.

Honestly though, I was watching a peice on punishment last night and I learned that public displays of punishment were real passtimes in the days of old...kinda like a sick and twisted day out on the town. I honestly don't see how that can have any effect on the populace other than to desensitize them to violence...which in turn causes more violence, etc, etc...

Liverbreath']I'd like to agree with your argument, but the fact is, no it has not. What has been found is that it is impossible to rehabilitate a criminal. Only they can do that. Nice thoughts, but no cigar.
OK but what we do is fail to give criminals space to rehabilitate into.
By which gibberish I mean you can let each convict gain a university degree in prison but he wont be able to use it to get a job when he gets out 'cos he's an ex-con and no-one will employ him.
If you have no work you go back to what you know.
I realise this doesn't apply to rapists (who should never be let out in my opinion), those who make vast amounts of cash from crime and see prison as just a down turn in the market or kids who just carry out crimes for the thrills but each could be solved in it's own way. I just don't know how but I do know that beating the crap out of people wont work 'cos no-one expects to get caught.

studies have shown that its not the severity of the punishment, but its certainty and the speed of deliverance that effect how well they work as deterents. Raising the stakes by executing people would do nothing to effect the likelyhood of being caught and convicted, or the length of time between sentencing and the crime.

Life in solitary confinement would be a pretty extreme deterant if you ask me...It ticks all the boxes for everyone! They are away from the public. They are suffering for their crime. And they are going to die in prison.

How can you argue against it? Of course, it should only happen to people who either rape or are Serial killers.

Most people cannot concieve the extreme pain one suffers in solitary confinement, which makes it useless as a deterrent. Solitary confinement destroys the mind literally, and creates an unimaginable type of animal in the process. As much as we would like to think that life in prision is just that. It is not. Almost all go free at some point.

I already knew you were a neo-nazi asshole, but one thing which hasn't been addressed.
gilluotine(sp) is still the most painless and humane way to execute a criminal.
Nobody really knows if it's painful or not. We do know, however, that it isn't instant death. During the reign of terror, it was observed that people's eyes darted around when the executioner lifted up their head.

Some guy decided to test this, so before he was going to be executed he decided to blink as long as he was concious, and have a friend in the crowd count. He got in 15 blinks.

That's at least 4 seconds concious after your head has been chopped off. Whether or not someone feels pain is unknown.

That still doesn't sound very humane.

I disagree. There are several things that need to be done in order to solve this crime problem. One starts at home, parents need to teach thier kids right and wrong. Parents need to be there to watch thier kids, not let the TV raise them.
Second, lets make criminals actually serve these sentences. This perole/time off early BS needs to stop. Third, and this is a big one, stop making laws that protect the criminals and not the victims. Until these changes begin to happen our situation will continue to deteriorate. What is making it worce is that people just do not seem to accept this, they just want to scapegoat things like guns, video games, TV, etc.

Public execution/ public beatings will not do much to the situation IMHO.

I have no problems with executing people who can otherwise not be rehabilitated, but making it public? Ehhhh...sounds a bit on the barbaric side to me. Hurting people to set an example is a last resort.

If we look at Singapore (if you people consider it a civilized society), they have a very low crime rate. One reason for this could be their use of caning. It appears as if the fear of pain is actually a good deterent there. Thoughts?

Little girl: Daddy, why are we going down to the town square?
Dad: We are going to witness an execution.
Little girl: What’s an execution daddy?
Dad: That is when a person is put to death.
Little girl: You mean they are going to kill someone daddy?
Dad: Yes honey, that’s right.
Little girl: Why are they going to kill this person daddy?
Dad: The woman they are going to execute broke the law and murdered her husband.
Little girl: So they are going to kill her for killing her husband?
Dad: That’s right honey.
Little girl: So the person who kills this lady, will also be breaking the law and have to be executed daddy?
Dad: No honey, the executioner is paid by the State to execute bad people.
Little girl: So the executioner gets paid to kill people daddy?
Dad: Yes honey.
Little girl: Daddy, where does the State get the money to pay the executioner to kill this lady?
Dad: The State pays the executioner from taxes collected from the taxpayers.
Little girl: Are you a taxpayer daddy?
Dad: Yes honey I am.
Little girl: Then you are helping to pay for this lady to be killed daddy?
Dad: Sort of honey…….
Little girl: I am so confused daddy. This lady broke the law by killing her husband, which is wrong and bad and has to be put to death, and you are going to help pay for this lady to be killed and that is good and right?
Dad: Yes honey, we are going to demonstrate to the world that killing someone in this State is wrong and is punishable by death.
Little girl: So killing people is wrong unless you are getting paid to kill someone…….

There is a simple solution to the problem. Since this is a democratic society, take a vote. Those in favor of the death penalty should not have to pay from thier taxes the cost of housing violent criminals that would otherwise be qualified for the death penalty. These costs include cable television, olypmic sized pool maintenance, gym equipment, horseback riding lessons, college degee's[for lifers], food clothing, air conditioning, ect[See Coxsackie Correctional Facility]. These costs should be the responsibility of the segment of public that want this rif raf around. What does a prisoner doing life without hope for parole need a college degree for anyway? I wish I had been able to go to college for free but that wasn't the case at all. The county I live in alone has 1500 known pediphiles roaming around free as can be. I believe if they were going to be set free in society they should have volenteered for manditory castration. Instead they are set free, they go to welfare, get great insurance where they get perscriptions for Viagra to improve thier performance for thier next offensive act. This was finally caught up with after a long time and that situation was fixed, how many thousands a day did the taxpayers pay for that blunder. The point is, where do we draw that line in the sand and say there are going to be DIRE consequences for your wrong?
<The wife of Warboski>Everyday someones child dies to a murderer who will probably do 5-10 years then get out. What of the innocent he killed? Well that life took the back of the buss because the poor criminal is a "victim of society" and doesn't deserve the death penaly. What of the kids family that he just ruined? Thier stuck dealing with thier loss. A child that they brought into the world loved and raised is nomore and there's no amount of money that will ever replace that. Would you like to set someone that would do that free again?

OK but what we do is fail to give criminals space to rehabilitate into.
By which gibberish I mean you can let each convict gain a university degree in prison but he wont be able to use it to get a job when he gets out 'cos he's an ex-con and no-one will employ him.
If you have no work you go back to what you know.
I realise this doesn't apply to rapists (who should never be let out in my opinion), those who make vast amounts of cash from crime and see prison as just a down turn in the market or kids who just carry out crimes for the thrills but each could be solved in it's own way. I just don't know how but I do know that beating the crap out of people wont work 'cos no-one expects to get caught.

I spent 16 years interviewing and counseling criminals whose crimes ranged from multiple DUI's to mass murder and I can tell you as a fact, that they simply do not care if they get caught. We have created institutions that they literally enjoy living in. As one inmate put it, "I love it here. I got three squares a day, all my friends and no responsiblities. I can do pretty much whatever I want as long as I respect the next guy" That's a sad comentary on our soft society in my opinion.
In light of the fact that there is such a loud opposition to corporal punishment and public execution then in my own opinion the solution is as simple as what I call a Correctional Terrority. It is not a new idea and has been used many times in history under the term "Exile". The US has more than enough of our land they have confinscated they could easily set aside a portion of it to bansih those that choose to live outside the law to. Just as criminals set up their own micro societies within institutional walls, they can do the same in an area the size of Rhode Island in the middle of our least populated areas of the country. They could be given the basic necessities to survive, and evolve from there, with the only condition being that to leave the confines of the territory means instant death. Call it escape from LA, New York or whatever you want, but it is a viable solution that protects the society, without damaging the feelings of those who think a hug a day cures all.
If this were attempted, I believe we would find that given time they would create an enviorment remarkably similar to our own, on a much smaller scale.

Little girl: Daddy, why are we going down to the town square?
Dad: We are going to witness an execution.
Little girl: What’s an execution daddy?
Dad: That is when a person is put to death.
Little girl: You mean they are going to kill someone daddy?
Dad: Yes honey, that’s right.
Little girl: Why are they going to kill this person daddy?
Dad: The woman they are going to execute broke the law and murdered her husband.
Little girl: So they are going to kill her for killing her husband?
Dad: That’s right honey.
Little girl: So the person who kills this lady, will also be breaking the law and have to be executed daddy?
Dad: No honey, the executioner is paid by the State to execute bad people.
Little girl: So the executioner gets paid to kill people daddy?
Dad: Yes honey.
Little girl: Daddy, where does the State get the money to pay the executioner to kill this lady?
Dad: The State pays the executioner from taxes collected from the taxpayers.
Little girl: Are you a taxpayer daddy?
Dad: Yes honey I am.
Little girl: Then you are helping to pay for this lady to be killed daddy?
Dad: Sort of honey…….
Little girl: I am so confused daddy. This lady broke the law by killing her husband, which is wrong and bad and has to be put to death, and you are going to help pay for this lady to be killed and that is good and right?
Dad: Yes honey, we are going to demonstrate to the world that killing someone in this State is wrong and is punishable by death.
Little girl: So killing people is wrong unless you are getting paid to kill someone…….

I actually had a similar conversation with my dad when I was five...

...Weird...

I've always been one who's advocated a firm stance on crime but...wow.

Physical punishments (lashing, beating, death) are the hallmark of uncivilized people. I think you'll find Iran is the country you'll be most comfortable in.



Actually, they are a great deterrant. Public executions, however, are...well....a nice way to get fame before you die :rolleyes:

Children posing as fascists... That's the stuff.

If we look at Singapore (if you people consider it a civilized society), they have a very low crime rate. One reason for this could be their use of caning. It appears as if the fear of pain is actually a good deterent there. Thoughts?


It seems alot of countries with punishments viewed as barbaric are subject to lower crime. I tend to agree with these punishments and see them as a deterent to crimes, but my view is looked apon dimly by most here so I'm not going any deeper into the issue.

Children posing as fascists... That's the stuff.



Not that I support public executions, but, seriously, stop the name-calling. It doesn't help our case.

Not that I support public executions, but, seriously, stop the name-calling. It doesn't help our case.

Wasn't directed at you. It was directed at Gessler, who is indeed a fascist.

Wasn't directed at you. It was directed at Gessler, who is indeed a fascist.



I know, but there are others who are not fascist and support public executions. I can see why, too. It's a tough issue, especially if you've been the victim of an assault/sexual assault. Fortunately, I haven't so I have the luxury of not advocating it.

Everyone nowadays is going on about how tv shows/games are too violent and are inciting kids to be violent too.

Not saying that I necessarily agree with this but if people who claim this do have a case, surely it would be many times worse to expose kids to more immediate violence by taking them to a public flogging/execution/whatever.

Not sure about you but I wouldn't want to witness such things now at the age of 17, let alone if I were 5 or 10 years younger. Basically it's a way of scaring people into obeying the law, but people do freaky things when they're scared - just look at the US and their trigger-happy gun culture.

Everyone nowadays is going on about how tv shows/games are too violent and are inciting kids to be violent too.

Not saying that I necessarily agree with this but if people who claim this do have a case, surely it would be many times worse to expose kids to more immediate violence by taking them to a public flogging/execution/whatever.

Not sure about you but I wouldn't want to witness such things now at the age of 17, let alone if I were 5 or 10 years younger. Basically it's a way of scaring people into obeying the law, but people do freaky things when they're scared - just look at the US and their trigger-happy gun culture.

Very well-said.

There is a simple solution to the problem. Since this is a democratic society, take a vote. Those in favor of the death penalty should not have to pay from thier taxes the cost of housing violent criminals that would otherwise be qualified for the death penalty. These costs include cable television, olypmic sized pool maintenance, gym equipment, horseback riding lessons, college degee's[for lifers], food clothing, air conditioning, ect[See Coxsackie Correctional Facility]. These costs should be the responsibility of the segment of public that want this rif raf around. What does a prisoner doing life without hope for parole need a college degree for anyway? I wish I had been able to go to college for free but that wasn't the case at all. The county I live in alone has 1500 known pediphiles roaming around free as can be. I believe if they were going to be set free in society they should have volenteered for manditory castration. Instead they are set free, they go to welfare, get great insurance where they get perscriptions for Viagra to improve thier performance for thier next offensive act. This was finally caught up with after a long time and that situation was fixed, how many thousands a day did the taxpayers pay for that blunder. The point is, where do we draw that line in the sand and say there are going to be DIRE consequences for your wrong?
If we are going to split it all up like that, then perhaps those who vote against the death penalty should not have to pay for executions? And those who don't support prisons having all the sorts of fancy stuff that you listed shouldn't have to pay for that either?

China dealt with serious drug problems after their commie takeover rather efficiently. Just grab the drug addict, and the dealers, march them into the street, then have them get on their knees. A little shot to the head and the problem was solved. I am in no way advocating this solution, but it does pay to see what happens in other societies. Call them barbaric methods, but seriously I think a would be murderer would perhaps think twice before killing grandma for her SS check if he knew that if he were (more then likely) caught, he would be executed immediately after a trial. Then his next of kin would be billed for said trial and execution. I seriously doubt we would have a crime problem here.

Liverbreath']I spent 16 years interviewing and counseling criminals whose crimes ranged from multiple DUI's to mass murder and I can tell you as a fact, that they simply do not care if they get caught. We have created institutions that they literally enjoy living in. As one inmate put it, "I love it here. I got three squares a day, all my friends and no responsiblities. I can do pretty much whatever I want as long as I respect the next guy" That's a sad comentary on our soft society in my opinion.
In light of the fact that there is such a loud opposition to corporal punishment and public execution then in my own opinion the solution is as simple as what I call a Correctional Terrority. It is not a new idea and has been used many times in history under the term "Exile". The US has more than enough of our land they have confinscated they could easily set aside a portion of it to bansih those that choose to live outside the law to. Just as criminals set up their own micro societies within institutional walls, they can do the same in an area the size of Rhode Island in the middle of our least populated areas of the country. They could be given the basic necessities to survive, and evolve from there, with the only condition being that to leave the confines of the territory means instant death. Call it escape from LA, New York or whatever you want, but it is a viable solution that protects the society, without damaging the feelings of those who think a hug a day cures all.
If this were attempted, I believe we would find that given time they would create an enviorment remarkably similar to our own, on a much smaller scale.

I bow to your greater experience but your solution is extreme. These people are institutionalised. You see the same thing in mental institutes and even the armed forces. They can't manage live on the outside 'cos they're not equiped to.
Two things we need to do
make prison less pleasant (although that would be not too effective I suspect)
Equipe leavers to live in the outside world. When you leave the army a great deal of effort is made to make sure you have a job, some skills and a place to live. We don't do that to offenders. we move them in with other ex-offenders who also haven't got prospects or a place to live. They commit crimes to get back to what they know and what is safe. Of course they don't care if they're caught.
I don't know the solution but I don't think it is "send 'em off to an island somewhere to eat each other" to paraphrase (and exagerate a bit)

if he knew that if he were (more then likely) caught

But how are we going to make this the case? How many criminals are out there who get away with their crimes and aren't caught?

Also, say you're flogging in public a paedophile. There's going to be a lot of aggression in the crowd watching, then the mob hysteria kicks in - people in that crowd are going to be baying for his blood. Security would have to be extremely strict to stop the crowd getting their hands on the offender, and even then a riot could still break out.

This may see ma little extreme but it happens at football matches etc, and in this situation there would be an obvious scapegoat. Again, what's to say that this violence wouldn't incite more violence? And what's to stop a corrupt flogger giving it to the criminal extra hard? (anyone here reminded of the Green Mile?)

China dealt with serious drug problems after their commie takeover rather efficiently. Just grab the drug addict, and the dealers, march them into the street, then have them get on their knees. A little shot to the head and the problem was solved. I am in no way advocating this solution, but it does pay to see what happens in other societies. Call them barbaric methods, but seriously I think a would be murderer would perhaps think twice before killing grandma for her SS check if he knew that if he were (more then likely) caught, he would be executed immediately after a trial. Then his next of kin would be billed for said trial and execution. I seriously doubt we would have a crime problem here.

Police states all over the world and throughout history have acted like that, and most have succeeded in reducing crime, that much is true.
But you will have to take into account their randomness in executing their citizens and the very high number of innocent lives they sacrificed in the process.
While the crime rate as such was getting lower, the ordinary citizen just exchanged the risk of being attacked and assaulted by a criminal for the very real risk of being innocently executed by the government. If you think that's a better way ...

Retentionist

(Countries which retain and use the death penalty for traditional crimes)

Afghanistan
Algeria
Antigua and Barbuda
Armenia
Bahamas
Bahrain
Bangladesh
Barbados
Belarus
Belize
Benin
Botswana
Burkina Faso
Burundi
Cameroon
Chad
Chile
China
Comoros
Cuba
Dominica
Egypt
Equatorial-Guinea
Eritrea Ethiopia
Gabon
Ghana
Guatemala
Guinea
Guyana
India
Indonesia
(Republic of China)
Iran
Iraq
Jamaica
Japan
Jordan
Kazakhstan
Kenya
North Korea
South Korea
Kuwait
Kyrgystan
Laos
Lebanon
Lesotho
Liberia Libya
Malawi
Malaysia
Mauritania
Mongolia
Morocco
Myanmar
Nigeria
Oman
Pakistan
Palestinian Authority
Philippines
Qatar
Russian Federation
Rwanda
St Christopher
Nevis
Saint Lucia
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
Saudi Arabia
Sierra Leone
Singapore
Somalia
Sudan
Swaziland
Syria
Tadzhikistan
Taiwan
Tajikstan
Tanzania
Thailand
Trinidad and Tobago
Tunisia
Turkmenistan
Uganda
Ukraine
United Arab Emirates
U.S.A.
Uzbekistan
Vietnam
Yemen
Yugoslavia
(Fed. Republic of)
Zaire
Zambia
Zimbabwe
Total: 90 countries and
territories

How many first world countries on this list?

How many first world countries on this list?

Five.

Seven, if you count the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia as "first world" countries.

<snip>

One. But the real question here is, compared to countries who abolished capital punishment, are the crime statistics higher or lower?

Retentionist

*snip*


In 2004, 97 per cent of all known executions took place in China, Iran, Viet Nam and the USA.

More and more countries become abolitionists in practice each year.


http://web.amnesty.org/pages/deathpenalty-facts-eng

-snip-
How many first world countries on this list?
Two. Although I'm pro-death penalty, this is an incontestable fact that most developed countries abolished the death penalty.

BTW, Russia has not executed anyone since 1996, and our death row is empty.

forget Public execution, how about pubic execution?

forget Public execution, how about pubic execution?


As long as they don't "wing" it into the crowd.

If we are going to split it all up like that, then perhaps those who vote against the death penalty should not have to pay for executions? And those who don't support prisons having all the sorts of fancy stuff that you listed shouldn't have to pay for that either?

The fact is I would be glad to see my taxpayers dollars going for executions because after not too many of them I think offenders of violent crime would start to get the picture and it would lessen dramatically. As to all the fancy things I mentioned, they exsist in Coxsackie Correctional Facility. I don't believe in the fact that they get such things but they do here anyway[not sure about other prison systems]. This is what I see and why i can form the opinion that I have. Our childrens centers aren't as well equiped for fun. Even the guards think all these priviledges are disgusting concidering some of the crimes these inmates have commited.

Two. Although I'm pro-death penalty, this is an incontestable fact that most developed countries abolished the death penalty.

BTW, Russia has not executed anyone since 1996, and our death row is empty.

Which means as of next year (10 years since last excecution) Russia is considered 'abolitionist in practice'.

As long as they don't "wing" it into the crowd.
oh Yeah totally! and they could all wear hats and call it a Big Day!

I don't think we need to go cutting people's head off, but I think there are crimes that have gotten out of control. Child molesters, rapist and crimes of extreme violence ect.. should be flogged. You throw these people in jail for a few years and the go right back meaner than before.

Our system of justice does too much to protect the offenders rights and far too little to protect the victims rights.

One. But the real question here is, compared to countries who abolished capital punishment, are the crime statistics higher or lower?
In Canada, capital punishment was abolished in 1976, and the murder rates have declined significantly.

In the US:

DETERRENCE AND THE DEATH PENALTY NUMBER OF EXECUTIONS BY STATE SINCE 1976 (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/FactSheet.pdf)

Total 2004 2005 Total 2004 2005
Texas 345 23 9 Nevada 11 2 0
Virginia 94 5 0 Mississippi 6 0 0
Oklahoma 78 6 3 Utah 6 0 0
Missouri 64 0 3 Maryland 4 1 0
Florida 60 2 1 Washington 4 0 0
Georgia 38 2 2 Nebraska 3 0 0
N. Carolina 36 4 2 Pennsylvania 3 0 0
S. Carolina 33 4 1 Kentucky 2 0 0
Alabama 32 2 2 Montana 2 0 0
Louisiana 27 0 0 Oregon 2 0 0
Arkansas 26 1 0 Colorado 1 0 0
Arizona 22 0 0 Connecticut 1 0 1
Ohio 16 7 1 Idaho 1 0 0
Delaware 13 0 0 New Mexico 1 0 0
Indiana 14 0 3 Tennessee 1 0 0
Illinois 12 0 0 Wyoming 1 0 0
California 11 0 1 US Gov’t 3 0 0
Execution By Region*

• According to a survey of the former and present presidents
of the country's top academic criminological societies, 84%
of these experts rejected the notion that the death penalty
acts as a deterrent to murder. (Radelet & Akers, 1996)

• Consistent with previous years, the 2003 FBI Uniform Crime
Report showed that the South had the highest murder rate. The
South accounts for over 80% of executions. The Northeast,
which has less than 1% of all executions, again had the lowest
murder rate.

You be the judge.

Which means as of next year (10 years since last excecution) Russia is considered 'abolitionist in practice'.

Yeah, all of that Russian crime just disappeared! :rolleyes:

The fact is I would be glad to see my taxpayers dollars going for executions because after not too many of them I think offenders of violent crime would start to get the picture and it would lessen dramatically.
What research do you base your opinion on?

Doesn't sound too detering to me.
Also, if it was true that harsher punishments (public or not) effectively lower crime rates, then counrties with a rather lenient system of punishment must be swarming with criminals. The opposite seems to be the case, though....
Maybe the reason for that is that countries who decide to go lenient on punishments simultaneously go to some lengths in crime prevention and rehabilitation.

Yeah, all of that Russian crime just disappeared! :rolleyes:

What? Where did I say that crime disappeared because Russia has stoped excecuting people? I was merely stating the fact that Russia will be considered to have abolished the death penalty as of next year.

Yeah, all of that Russian crime just disappeared! :rolleyes:
I think that most of our 'lifers' would have preferred to be shot--our maximum-securrity prisons are utter hellholes.

In Canada, capital punishment was abolished in 1976, and the murder rates have declined significantly.




Can we ship all of our violent criminals up to you guys? Just think in a few short years they could all be cured and be productive members of society.

What? Where did I say that crime disappeared because Russia has stoped excecuting people? I was merely stating the fact that Russia will be considered to have abolished the death penalty as of next year.


You didn't say anything about it. I just like to insinuate ALOT! :)

Can we ship all of our violent criminals up to you guys? Just think in a few short years they could all be cured and be productive members of society.

Hang on, I thought you did that already? :D

I think that most of our 'lifers' would have preferred to be shot--our maximum-securrity prisons are utter hellholes.

Don't alot of them actually eventually starve to death anyway?

What reseaech do you base your opinion on?

Does there need to be a poll or study involved? If I know the consequenses for violent crime is going to mean my untimely demise and it will be enforced, the chances I am going to go out and murder and rape[not that I would anyway] are going to be a not happening issue. I would like to drive 150-200 MPH, why do I not do this? Because the chances are I'm going to crash my car and kill myself. See where I'm going with this? Fear of bodily harm is a deterent to breaking sensible laws that are in place for the good of people. Some laws do fall short of that but most of these are commonsense. If you knew that you where going to be executed for a violent crime would you go out and commit one if you knew there was even the slightest chance you where going to be caught? No study needed, the precident set down by other nations with the so called barbaric punishments have lower crimes because criminals are held accountable for thier actions. We need to start taking the victims side. Answer that. What about the victim?

Don't alot of them actually eventually starve to death anyway?
It happens... as well as tuberculosis, AIDS... the whole beat of horrors.

Call them barbaric methods, but seriously I think a would be murderer would perhaps think twice before killing grandma for her SS check if he knew that if he were (more then likely) caught,

What makes you think that murderers think they are going to get caught?

he would be executed immediately after a trial.

Yep. Lets get rid of the appeals process, because we all know that judicial system never errs.

Then his next of kin would be billed for said trial and execution.

Why should someone be punished for another's crime?

Does there need to be a poll or study involved? If I know the consequenses for violent crime is going to mean my untimely demise and it will be enforced, the chances I am going to go out and murder and rape[not that I would anyway] are going to be a not happening issue. I would like to drive 150-200 MPH, why do I not do this? Because the chances are I'm going to crash my car and kill myself. See where I'm going with this? Fear of bodily harm is a deterent to breaking sensible laws that are in place for the good of people. Some laws do fall short of that but most of these are commonsense. If you knew that you where going to be executed for a violent crime would you go out and commit one if you knew there was even the slightest chance you where going to be caught? No study needed, the precident set down by other nations with the so called barbaric punishments have lower crimes because criminals are held accountable for thier actions. We need to start taking the victims side. Answer that. What about the victim?

Yet some people still do drive insanely fast even with the knowledge of the risks. Just like people still commit violent crimes under the risk of the death penalty.

Does there need to be a poll or study involved? If I know the consequenses for violent crime is going to mean my untimely demise and it will be enforced, the chances I am going to go out and murder and rape[not that I would anyway] are going to be a not happening issue. I would like to drive 150-200 MPH, why do I not do this? Because the chances are I'm going to crash my car and kill myself. See where I'm going with this? Fear of bodily harm is a deterent to breaking sensible laws that are in place for the good of people. Some laws do fall short of that but most of these are commonsense. If you knew that you where going to be executed for a violent crime would you go out and commit one if you knew there was even the slightest chance you where going to be caught? No study needed, the precident set down by other nations with the so called barbaric punishments have lower crimes because criminals are held accountable for thier actions. We need to start taking the victims side. Answer that. What about the victim?

If that was the case, there would be no murders at all in the US. But there are, aren't there?

Murder rate (per 100,000 people):

United States 8.40
Canada 5.45
Denmark 5.17
Germany 4.20
Norway 1.99
United Kingdom 1.97
Sweden 1.73
Japan 1.20
Finland 0.70


http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/8Comparison.htm

CanuckHeaven says that murder rates have declined since the abolition of the death penalty in Canada, but that is insufficient to imply that murder rates have decreased as a result of abolition.

You have to look at other factors - were murder rates decreasing already prior to abolition? If so, there may well be an underlying cause.

In the UK, homicide rates (including manslaughter as well as murder) increased significantly following the government decision not to use the death penalty again (note NOT the formal date of abolition).

Countries which apply the death penalty consistently (the US system is appallingly inconsistent, bordering on racist) have lower crime rates, eg. Singapore.

Can we ship all of our violent criminals up to you guys? Just think in a few short years they could all be cured and be productive members of society.


<The Wife of Warboski>And they could keep them too CB. We have so many pediphiles and murderers walking free after thier short prison terms in New York that even upstate in the countryside you cann't walk the streets in the daytime and not worry if your kids are going to be the victim of a driveby shooting or executed for innocently talking to a gang members sister or girlfriend,I.E. local boy 19y/o shot 5 times in the head for talking to crips gang member's sister on the street 3 weeks ago in Conneticut while visiting relitives]. Yea, they can have all those trash if they think they can rehabilitate that.

If that was the case, there would be no murders at all in the US. But there are, aren't there?



http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/8Comparison.htm



I found this (http://davecoop.net/rate.htm) after a brief google search. It has the stats to do with the death penalty in relation to the murder rate within the US.

What makes you think that murderers think they are going to get caught?



Yep. Lets get rid of the appeals process, because we all know that judicial system never errs.



Why should someone be punished for another's crime?

There is no such thing as a perfect murder anymore since the discovery of DNA. Sure, many don't think they'll get caught ever, but they are wrong. Many murderers actually do worry about being caught, why else would they get out of Dodge?

As long as there is concrete DNA evidence and no evidence pointing somewhere else. The judicial system hardly ever errs when it comes to murder. If the appeals worked so well, why aren't so many "innocent" people being released from death row everyday? The fact is that the appeals process is abused in this country, and it's just a delaying tactic for those cowards.

As to the family having to pay, the Chinese did that when they executed people.

As to the family having to pay, the Chinese did that when they executed people.

If the chinese jumped off of a bridge would you do that too?

I love sounding like my dad :p

<The Wife of Warboski>And they could keep them too CB. We have so many pediphiles and murderers walking free after thier short prison terms in New York that even upstate in the countryside you cann't walk the streets in the daytime and not worry if your kids are going to be the victim of a driveby shooting or executed for innocently talking to a gang members sister or girlfriend,

Do you usually find pedophiles hanging out with gang members?
Are all gang members murderers?

<The Wife of Warboski>And they could keep them too CB. We have so many pediphiles and murderers walking free after thier short prison terms in New York that even upstate in the countryside you cann't walk the streets in the daytime and not worry if your kids are going to be the victim of a driveby shooting or executed for innocently talking to a gang members sister or girlfriend,I.E. local boy 19y/o shot 5 times in the head for talking to crips gang member's sister on the street 3 weeks ago in Conneticut while visiting relitives]. Yea, they can have all those trash if they think they can rehabilitate that.Yeah, but instead of screaming "I want them to be punished!" maybe some thought should be put into preventing and reducing problems with gangs. I pretty much doubt that they care whether they spend the rest of their lives in jail or get executed. The question is do they fear getting caught or not, and that needs to be dealt with as well as with social programs to keep youths from slipping into gangs.

I found this (http://davecoop.net/rate.htm) after a brief google search. It has the stats to do with the death penalty in relation to the murder rate within the US.Yes, but that in turn doesn't answer why murder rates are lower in other countries without the death penalty.

It happens... as well as tuberculosis, AIDS... the whole beat of horrors.


Got a few extra hundred thousand cells? I'm sure you have enough space in Siberia where you guys could build some prisons.....we'll pay ya'? ;)

How many first world countries on this list?

USA, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, and you could argue Singapore. So four and a half.

Yes, but that in turn doesn't answer why murder rates are lower in other countries without the death penalty.

It is a cultural thing. I don't want to sound like a bigot, but our poor minorities are causing a disaportionate (sp?) amount of violent crimes. In this department the "War on Poverty" has been an unbelievable failure.

It's a sad fact that culturally homogenius (sp?) nations will always have a lower crime rate.

There is actually a legitimate point to be made here, but it seems to have been lost in the trolling and backbiting. The human body learns through the negative feedback of pain quite effectively, so there is indeed a case to be made for the scientific application of pain as a possible deterrent for criminal and antisocial behavior.

It's equally obvious that our current systems of punishment are considered nothing of the sort by the hardcore criminal element, who seem to accept a soft and pleasant visit to prison to be some sort of vindication for 'getting away with it'. Kinda like the reaction we get when we delete trollers and spammers, and they just slap out a new nation and continue it here.

Officially, I'll add this. Gessler, get back to your core point and defend it in a non-trolling way, and you might have a legitimate point or two to make. The rest of you, stop calling him an idiot just because you disagree with his core premise, or locks and official warnings will start flying.

~ Frisbeeteria ~
NationStates Game Moderator
The One-Stop Rules Shop

Perhaps, but arguing for the death penalty as it is used in the US is a far cry for calling for public stonings and beheadings like Gessler is. Capital punishment as a form of entertainment is far different than capital punishment as a form of criminal deterent.

There is no such thing as a perfect murder anymore since the discovery of DNA. Sure, many don't think they'll get caught ever, but they are wrong. Many murderers actually do worry about being caught, why else would they get out of Dodge?

I didn't say "What makes you think that murderers worry they are going to get caught," but "What makes you think that murderers think they are going to get caught."

Though what's Dodge? :confused:

As long as there is concrete DNA evidence and no evidence pointing somewhere else. The judicial system hardly ever errs when it comes to murder. If the appeals worked so well, why aren't so many "innocent" people being released from death row everyday? The fact is that the appeals process is abused in this country, and it's just a delaying tactic for those cowards.

True, it probably is being abused. But I reckon most people see a need for it to lessen the chances of an innocent being executed. And it might be rare, but it does happen.

Also the fact that not many innocent (though you putting the word into speech marks looks like you don't think innocent people exist) people are released from deathrow via appeal could be a sign that they do work. That is, they are doing there job, not letting any Tom, Dick or Harry who appeals to walk.

As to the family having to pay, the Chinese did that when they executed people.

Doesn't answer what I asked.

Why should someone be punished for another's crime?

1) Public execution is pointless in America. Why? Because Americans are completely jaded to violence, besides I don't think lethal injection is too entertaining. Public execution would in no way have a real effect on criminals

2) What we REALLY need is a revamp of the death penalty system. If we have you on tape, or 3 non-related people who saw you do it. Fuck your appeals bitch, you get bumped to the front, with all these appeals and delays, the people performing lethal injections can't be too busy. And we should make good use of DNA evidence, if all police stations consistently used it, we could better make death row more of a death row and not life without parole

If the chinese jumped off of a bridge would you do that too?

I love sounding like my dad :p

Well, if the water was deep enough and it was a hot day...sure. Come on, that was great fun back when we were kids in the summer.

It is a cultural thing. I don't want to sound like a bigot, but our poor minorities are causing a disaportionate (sp?) amount of violent crimes. In this department the "War on Poverty" has been an unbelievable failure.

It's a sad fact that culturally homogenius (sp?) nations will always have a lower crime rate.

The cultural thing is the attitude to those poor minorities. America seems to blame them for being poor and leaves itr at that. Europe (in general) opts for intergation and social security...

ly homogenius (sp?) nations will always have a lower crime rate.

Homogenius:

http://ffmedia.ign.com/drwho/pics/fry.jpg

Homogeneous:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Homogeneous


Sorry couldn't resist

And you all can say and think as you please. The fact is, till one of these vermin commit an act on somebody close to you, you will never be able to see it from the eye's of the victim. I hope that day will never come to you. If it does I'm not going to be surprised to see your point of view drastically change. You may say it won't now as did that 19 y/o boys parents and sister. The fact is they changed thier tune when the denial that they lost thier son kicked in. It was a terrible loss to the community because he was a good and giving young man and didn't deserve 5 bullets in his head just for talking to a girl. His mom has since suffered a complete nervous breakdown, his sister cries all the time, his father only 45 looks like an old man that has been beaten and lost his spirit. Our whole community attended the funeral but nothing will give back thier boy and no amount of sympathy or empathy is going to fix that. Do you have a better solution for dealing with this animal in another way that would make the victims parents feel justice? They want the death penalty.

Doesn't answer what I asked.

Why should someone be punished for another's crime?

The family should be fined for the victim. What I mean is that when a murderer is executed, their estate (if any goes) to the next of kin. That would be seized by the state and given to the family of the murdered person. If the criminal had no estate, a fine should be levied onto the next of kin, a fair amount from what they have. This might also deter a murderer, since they might not want their family to have to pay for their misdeeds.

BTW Dodge is an American expression, ie Get out of Dodge. Dodge represents Dodge City (Kansas?), which is where a famous gunfight took place in the days of the old west.

make the victims parents feel justice? They want the death penalty.

Thats not justice- thats vengence.
They are not they same.

Ihatevacations']2) What we REALLY need is a revamp of the death penalty system. If we have you on tape, or 3 non-related people who saw you do it. Fuck your appeals bitch, you get bumped to the front, with all these appeals and delays, the people performing lethal injections can't be too busy. And we should make good use of DNA evidence, if all police stations consistently used it, we could better make death row more of a death row and not life without parole

Exactly.

The fact is, till one of these vermin commit an act on somebody close to you, you will never be able to see it from the eye's of the victim.

What makes you so sure it hasn't to anybody reading this thread?

I hope that day will never come to you. If it does I'm not going to be surprised to see your point of view drastically change. You may say it won't now as did that 19 y/o boys parents and sister. The fact is they changed thier tune when the denial that they lost thier son kicked in. It was a terrible loss to the community because he was a good and giving young man and didn't deserve 5 bullets in his head just for talking to a girl. His mom has since suffered a complete nervous breakdown, his sister cries all the time, his father only 45 looks like an old man that has been beaten and lost his spirit. Our whole community attended the funeral but nothing will give back thier boy and no amount of sympathy or empathy is going to fix that. Do you have a better solution for dealing with this animal in another way that would make the victims parents feel justice? They want the death penalty.

Appeals to emotion don't make you right. It is sad what happened, but the ordeal that the parents have gone through doesn't give them a monopoly on the truth, or on the right treatment of these "vermin" (as you call them).

Homogenius:

http://ffmedia.ign.com/drwho/pics/fry.jpg

Homogeneous:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Homogeneous


Sorry couldn't resist

LOL!

The cultural thing is the attitude to those poor minorities. America seems to blame them for being poor and leaves itr at that. Europe (in general) opts for intergation and social security...

Which country in Europe has the same amount of diversity as the US?

The family should be fined for the victim. What I mean is that when a murderer is executed, their estate (if any goes) to the next of kin. That would be seized by the state and given to the family of the murdered person. If the criminal had no estate, a fine should be levied onto the next of kin, a fair amount from what they have. This might also deter a murderer, since they might not want their family to have to pay for their misdeeds.

But the next of kin are innocent. Why should they be punished?

These ideas sound grand, but when it comes to innocents being punished, it is hardly justice.

BTW Dodge is an American expression, ie Get out of Dodge. Dodge represents Dodge City (Kansas?), which is where a famous gunfight took place in the days of the old west.

Thanks.

Homogenius:

http://ffmedia.ign.com/drwho/pics/fry.jpg

Homogeneous:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Homogeneous


Sorry couldn't resist

Yeah, I guess we aren't in the grip of murder sprees commited by "homogenius'". :p

Do you have a better solution for dealing with this animal in another way that would make the victims parents feel justice? They want the death penalty.

It is not about the desires of the parents of the victim. It is about dispensing justice in a fair and unbiased manner.

I'm against the death penalty, let alone public executions. That's so 20th century...

Public executions might be a good thing. It shows why you shouldn't do something bad enough to get the death penalty. I don't know, I could see allowing it but I am afraid of the blood-lovers who would arise due to a sick desire to see bloody executions. If it weren't for the possible corruption, public executions might be a good thing.

OK, well lets see. I agree with Gessler because well look at the past. The past civilisations that had public executions[floggings, public humiliation, etc.] were not brought down by these things.
Our civilisation is not being brought down by crime either, which was at far worse levels 100 years ago (except murder) than it is today.

Even in the bible it says to follow mans law along with christs law. And it says do unto others as they do to you.
No, it says "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Which means, treat people the way you would like to be treated by them.

And you all can say and think as you please. The fact is, till one of these vermin commit an act on somebody close to you, you will never be able to see it from the eye's of the victim. I hope that day will never come to you. If it does I'm not going to be surprised to see your point of view drastically change. You may say it won't now as did that 19 y/o boys parents and sister. The fact is they changed thier tune when the denial that they lost thier son kicked in. It was a terrible loss to the community because he was a good and giving young man and didn't deserve 5 bullets in his head just for talking to a girl. His mom has since suffered a complete nervous breakdown, his sister cries all the time, his father only 45 looks like an old man that has been beaten and lost his spirit. Our whole community attended the funeral but nothing will give back thier boy and no amount of sympathy or empathy is going to fix that. Do you have a better solution for dealing with this animal in another way that would make the victims parents feel justice? They want the death penalty.
I don't support the death penalty for revenge, I support the death penalty because some people can't be rehabilitated and we don't have enough dman room in jails to hold people indefinately and they should NOT be released into society

The family should be fined for the victim. What I mean is that when a murderer is executed, their estate (if any goes) to the next of kin. That would be seized by the state and given to the family of the murdered person. If the criminal had no estate, a fine should be levied onto the next of kin, a fair amount from what they have. This might also deter a murderer, since they might not want their family to have to pay for their misdeeds.
Are you out of your damn mind? What did the next of kin do? Why should they be punished for the actions of the criminal? If they instate this I hope one of your relatives are the first people to commit a crime and you are made homeless for it

Which country in Europe has the same amount of diversity as the US?

Just off the top of my head, i'd have to mention Britain, Germany and Ireland.

I know, but there are others who are not fascist and support public executions. I can see why, too. It's a tough issue, especially if you've been the victim of an assault/sexual assault. Fortunately, I haven't so I have the luxury of not advocating it.
You talk as if support for public executions is a remotely mainstream view.

What's very interesting is the number of people who use the argument, "If it happened to you or someone you love, you'd be pro-public execution/death penalty in general."

Well, no. That's actually not true. One highly public example would be the 9/11 families who were against the various wars. The "Not in our name" movement I believe. Its not like the entire anti war movement in Vietnam became violent when some people were shot at Ken state either. Its not like the criminals who blow up abortion clinics have typically lost kids to abortion or something.

Idealogy and personal experience are remarkably seperate.

The stances people hold on such issues are unlikely to be so easily swayed as by a single or perhaps even multiple incidents. Its highly likely that your opinions on the subject are created early on in life, part of the early nature/nurture debate. Now, it is possible that those waffling on the issue could be pushed off the fence and on to one side or the other, but even that's not a given.

On a more basic and personal level, I've had several friends victimized by various crimes, including serious ones. My stance on such issues remains unchanged by them.

By the way, from the perspective of history...Was crime EVER decreased by horrible forms of public execution? I don't remember any of the ancient societies having any luck with that method.

If someone is mistakenly lashed, how do you compensate someone for a false lashing? Say sorry and treat them to lunch?

By the way, from the perspective of history...Was crime EVER decreased by horrible forms of public execution? I don't remember any of the ancient societies having any luck with that method.
I've heard china does a good job of it, but thats another matter

If someone is mistakenly lashed, how do you compensate someone for a false lashing? Say sorry and treat them to lunch?I'd like to add: What do you do for a false execution?

Yesss...bring them back. That way my thirst for blood can be filled. :eek:

Yesss...bring them back. That way my thirst for blood can be filled. :eek:Where does your name come from?

As an opponent of executions in general, I think they should be made public. They were around the turn of the 20th century, and it nearly killed the practice until its proponents took it out of sight and out of mind. Yes, executions should absolutely be public. You should see what your government is doing in your name. Shine the light of truth once again upon this unholy beast!

Just off the top of my head, i'd have to mention Britain, Germany and Ireland.

Not even close Mongoose:

US Census 2000
White 75.1%
Black or African American 12.3%
Hispanic or Latino (of any race) 12.5%
American Indian and Alaska Native 0.9%
Asian 3.6%
Native Hawaiian and other Pacific Islander 0.1%
Some other race 5.5%
Two or more races 2.4%

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/SAFFFacts?_event=&geo_id=01000US&_geoContext=01000US&_street=&_county=&_cityTown=&_state=&_zip=&_lang=en&_sse=on&ActiveGeoDiv=&_useEV=&pctxt=fph&pgsl=010

Britain:

Ethnic groups:
white 92.1%, black 2%, Indian 1.8%, Pakistani 1.3%, mixed 1.2%, other 1.6% (2001 census)

Ireland:

Ethnic groups:
Celtic, English

Germany:

Ethnic groups:
German 91.5%, Turkish 2.4%, other 6.1% (made up largely of Greek, Italian, Polish, Russian, Serbo-Croatian, Spanish)

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html

I'd like to add: What do you do for a false execution?
I think that would call for an all out dinner for the next of kin.

Not even close Mongoose

Pwn3d. HAHAHAHAH.

If you want to talk diversity, the US is 2.5 times as "diverse" as any of those countries. Watch Europe's crime rate skyrocket over the next few decades as these populations otupace that of the native Europeans.

Pwn3d. HAHAHAHAH.

If you want to talk diversity, the US is 2.5 times as "diverse" as any of those countries. Watch Europe's crime rate skyrocket over the next few decades as these populations otupace that of the native Europeans.
Diversity leads to crime? I just want to be sure that is what is being said here. That diversity itself leads to crime. Because... uh... that is what is being said, right? I mean, I just want to be 100% sure. Diversity = Crime like H20 = Water.

Pwn3d. HAHAHAHAH.

If you want to talk diversity, the US is 2.5 times as "diverse" as any of those countries. Watch Europe's crime rate skyrocket over the next few decades as these populations otupace that of the native Europeans.Have you bothered to check the cities? European countrysides tend to be homogenous while we do have large ethnic minorities in the cities. Your statistics tend to look at the nation as a whole.

Admittedly I didn't bother reading through the whole forum, but I'm wondering if anyone bothered checking the crime rates of Muslim states where corporal punishment is carried out. Petty crime levels are much lower than the UK, although I'm not sure how bad crime rates in the US are, other than for gun crime (highest in the Developed World I'm afraid!).

Losing a hand for stealing sounds barbaric, but there is an exceedingly tiny number of single-handed people in the Middle East. A coincidence? I think not!

I do have to admit I feel this kind of punishment is a little harsh, but it does serve as the perfect deterrent. One thing though, I don't agree with taking the life of any suspected murderer who has the tiniest chance of being innocent. Unless there is completely conclusive proof, the death penalty should never be used. Known war criminals deserve death, but the guillotine seems a bit kind for them, an easy way out. Saddam Hussain should get a death somewhat slower than a nice injection, starvation might do.

Before the complaints come flying in, no, I'm not a sadist, I just think prevention is better than rehabilitation. I can't see much shoplifting going on with the price being your hand, and those murderers who will never change won't need to, they'd be dead.

A wee bit of repetition on one thing though, CONCLUSIVE PROOF IS ADAMANT to society still revolving with a punishment system like this in use. If 3 billion people couldn't make the G8 leaders cancel Africa's debt, who's to say protesters would manage to cancel corporal punishment?

Diversity leads to crime? I just want to be sure that is what is being said here. That diversity itself leads to crime. Because... uh... that is what is being said, right? I mean, I just want to be 100% sure. Diversity = Crime like H20 = Water.

Regardless of whether it's because of economics or because of cultural or hereditary factors, data consistently shows that the "browner" a country is, the higher its crime rates.

Were missing seeing justice being dealt out up close and personal. I would like to see public floggings bought back for minor crimes such as theft, fraud and assault. Anyone seeing this, and hearing the screams of say a civil servant, or insurance agent, or politician even after they have had their tie removed and shirt ripped from their back, then given a good twenty lashes with the knotted cat o nines, will think twice about committing the same crimes themselves. A good lesson for the kiddies too, who should be bought to wittness true reality which will make them look at crime in a new light.
Also public execution down at the local shopping centre square, gilluotine(sp) is still the most painless and humane way to execute a criminal.
Your thoughts?
Corporal and/or capital punishment have never been shown to act as a deterrent, whether public or not. Public executions would probably cause either or both of the followin:

* A rise in the general level of violence in society, under the "monkey see, monkey do" principle;

* Total elmination of the death penalty, especially if the executions were televised.

I don't see either of these as being "a good thing." :(

One point I'd like to make against public executions and punishment would be that it helps reduce inhibitive thresholds. Violence, especially when it's real, will lead to people becoming more willing to do violence. In retrospect, public punishment would likely lead to a brutalization of society and result in more violent crimes.

Diversity leads to crime? I just want to be sure that is what is being said here. That diversity itself leads to crime. Because... uh... that is what is being said, right? I mean, I just want to be 100% sure. Diversity = Crime like H20 = Water.


No I'm not saying that diversity is the reason. I want to make that perfectly clear. I'm just saying that we have a truely diverse nation here which would make it tougher to figure out why this country has a larger crime rate then our European cousins. I know one of the reasons is poverty, some of the others may include a problem with different cultures getting along. Does anyone have any other ideas why the US has more crime?

No I'm not saying that diversity is the reason. I want to make that perfectly clear. I'm just saying that we have a truely diverse nation here which would make it tougher to figure out why this country has a larger crime rate then our European cousins. I know one of the reasons is poverty, some of the others may include a problem with different cultures getting along. Does anyone have any other ideas why the US has more crime?
I'm glad you made that clear. Valosia should probably be ignored at this point.

Regardless of whether it's because of economics or because of cultural or hereditary factors, data consistently shows that the "browner" a country is, the higher its crime rates.

That's not right. I could say "100% of people who have eating cheerios will die!" Look at India, plenty of "brown" people there as you say. Their violent crime rates are lower then ours.

Were missing seeing justice being dealt out up close and personal. I would like to see public floggings bought back for minor crimes such as theft, fraud and assault. Anyone seeing this, and hearing the screams of say a civil servant, or insurance agent, or politician even after they have had their tie removed and shirt ripped from their back, then given a good twenty lashes with the knotted cat o nines, will think twice about committing the same crimes themselves. A good lesson for the kiddies too, who should be bought to wittness true reality which will make them look at crime in a new light.
Also public execution down at the local shopping centre square, gilluotine(sp) is still the most painless and humane way to execute a criminal.
Your thoughts?


Forget the public exhibitions. Do it on PAY PER VIEW TV. That way those that don't want to see it DON'T :rolleyes:

Can we ship all of our violent criminals up to you guys? Just think in a few short years they could all be cured and be productive members of society.
Are you suggesting that the US is incapable of rehabilitating criminals? What do the States that have no death penalty do?

Are you suggesting that the US is incapable of rehabilitating criminals? What do the States that have no death penalty do?


In Michigan we lock them up and then complain about not having enough space in our jails or prisons.

No study needed, the precident set down by other nations with the so called barbaric punishments have lower crimes because criminals are held accountable for thier actions.
Which nations are you referring to? Please provide some examples to back your claim.

We need to start taking the victims side. Answer that. What about the victim?
What do you mean by taking the "victim's side"?

Are you suggesting that the US is incapable of rehabilitating criminals? What do the States that have no death penalty do?

Rehabilitation of violent, sociopathic prisoners is a crock of horse cocky. Some people think that prison can fix things. It doesn't for those types, in fact it might even make them worse.

Are you saying that Canada can rehab violent, sociopathic criminals?

As to your last inquiry: They basically just have to deal with those scumbags when they are released back into society.

In Michigan we lock them up and then complain about not having enough space in our jails or prisons.
Yet it is cheaper to lock them up rather than execute them.

I guess if you have that much crime, then you need to build more jails?

Public executions have to be bought back

You have to buy back public executions?

See, you might as well go private for your execution. At least then you know you're being catered for.

*Shrug*

Rehabilitation of violent, sociopathic prisoners is a crock of horse cocky. Some people think that prison can fix things. It doesn't for those types, in fact it might even make them worse.

Are you saying that Canada can rehab violent, sociopathic criminals?

As to your last inquiry: They basically just have to deal with those scumbags when they are released back into society.
The minimum jail term for murder in Canada is ten years, and the maximum is life. Life is usually defined as 25 years. If the prisoner is deemed a dangerous offender, the chances are that they will never be paroled.

No I'm not saying that diversity is the reason. I want to make that perfectly clear. I'm just saying that we have a truely diverse nation here which would make it tougher to figure out why this country has a larger crime rate then our European cousins. I know one of the reasons is poverty, some of the others may include a problem with different cultures getting along. Does anyone have any other ideas why the US has more crime?Higher affinity towards violence. Violence is a taboo topic in Germany while nudity is not. It's the other way round in the States and I think that a more brutalized society produces more individuals willing to commit violence.

Yet it is cheaper to lock them up rather than execute them.

I guess if you have that much crime, then you need to build more jails?


The average cost of housing one male prisoner in the US is $23,000 so it would actually be alot cheaper to execute them.

It isn't so much the crime in my state as it is the fact that most of the jails and prisons are decades old. Most are over 30 years old and do not have the space necessary to house the criminals currently in the system. Hence some are released early when they shouldn't be.

Prisoner costs from 1975-2003 (http://www.usdoj.gov/jmd/budgetsummary/btd/1975_2002/2002/html/page117-119.htm)

The minimum jail term for murder in Canada is ten years, and the maximum is life. Life is usually defined as 25 years. If the prisoner is deemed a dangerous offender, the chances are that they will never be paroled.

Yes, but can Canada rehab violent sociopaths?

Higher affinity towards violence. Violence is a taboo topic in Germany while nudity is not. It's the other way round in the States and I think that a more brutalized society produces more individuals willing to commit violence.


Perhaps, but then in places like China, violence was not a taboo topic either, but they have little violent crime.

Regardless of whether it's because of economics or because of cultural or hereditary factors, data consistently shows that the "browner" a country is, the higher its crime rates.
Toronto has one of the most cosmopolitan populations in the world and the murder rate is 1.9 per 100,000, so wha chu talkin' about Willis?

The average cost of housing one male prisoner in the US is $23,000 so it would actually be alot cheaper to execute them.

It isn't so much the crime in my state as it is the fact that most of the jails and prisons are decades old. Most are over 30 years old and do not have the space necessary to house the criminals currently in the system. Hence some are released early when they shouldn't be.
http://www.deathpenalty.org/index.php?pid=cost

The California death penalty system costs taxpayers more than $114 million a year beyond the cost of simply keeping the convicts locked up for life. (This figure does not take into account additional court costs for post-conviction hearings in state and federal courts, estimated to exceed several million dollars.)


With 11 executions spread over 27 years, on a per execution basis, California and federal taxpayers have paid more than $250 million for each execution.


It costs aproximately $90,000 more a year to house an inmate on death row, than in the general prison population or $57.5 million annually.


The Attorney General devotes about 15% of his budget, or $11 million annually to death penalty cases.


The California Supreme Court spends $11.8 million on appointed counsel for death row inmates.


The Office of the State Public Defender and the Habeas Corpus Resource Center spend a total of $22.3 million on defense for indigent defendents facing death.


The federal court system spends aproximately $12 million on defending death row inmates in federal court.


No figures were given for the amount spent by the offices of County District Attorneys on the prosecution of capital cases, however these expenses are presumed to be in the tens of millions of dollars each year.

Perhaps, but then in places like China, violence was not a taboo topic either, but they have little violent crime.

I think being executed by the ARMY has something to do with that. Then to top it all off they send the cost of the bullets to your family.

http://www.deathpenalty.org/index.php?pid=cost

The California death penalty system costs taxpayers more than $114 million a year beyond the cost of simply keeping the convicts locked up for life. (This figure does not take into account additional court costs for post-conviction hearings in state and federal courts, estimated to exceed several million dollars.)


With 11 executions spread over 27 years, on a per execution basis, California and federal taxpayers have paid more than $250 million for each execution.


It costs aproximately $90,000 more a year to house an inmate on death row, than in the general prison population or $57.5 million annually.


The Attorney General devotes about 15% of his budget, or $11 million annually to death penalty cases.


The California Supreme Court spends $11.8 million on appointed counsel for death row inmates.


The Office of the State Public Defender and the Habeas Corpus Resource Center spend a total of $22.3 million on defense for indigent defendents facing death.


The federal court system spends aproximately $12 million on defending death row inmates in federal court.


No figures were given for the amount spent by the offices of County District Attorneys on the prosecution of capital cases, however these expenses are presumed to be in the tens of millions of dollars each year.


I stand corrected *maybe* but you are not giving the average costs. Your giving CALIFORNIA only which isn't a fair example. California would be a wasteland in those figures of $250 million per execution are accurate.

I was under the impression that cutting off people's hands *was* a death sentance. (Eat with the right, wipe your ass with your left... A good muslim would not eat with his left hand.)

*shrug* If I'm wrong, that's fine.

However, it seems like a lot of people here would like a system of justice akin to the concept of the judges in the Judge Dredd comics.
With "instant" (and supposedly infallible) punishment, every one is happy, right?

And just look at how safe Megacity was.

The average cost of housing one male prisoner in the US is $23,000 so it would actually be alot cheaper to execute them.
However, it costs millions to execute them.

It isn't so much the crime in my state as it is the fact that most of the jails and prisons are decades old. Most are over 30 years old and do not have the space necessary to house the criminals currently in the system. Hence some are released early when they shouldn't be.
Just build more jails, and upgrade the ones that can be upgraded. Releasing prisoners early because there isn't space makes zero sense and is a mockery of the justice system. The Feds should kick in some coin?

The kind of justice Gessler talks about isn't justice: it's sadism.

Anyone seeing this, and hearing the screams of say a civil servant, or insurance agent, or politician even after they have had their tie removed and shirt ripped from their back, then given a good twenty lashes with the knotted cat o nines, will think twice about committing the same crimes themselves. Anyone seeing that will no doubt wonder how the Taliban managed to win.

*edit: close to 34% of respondents to the above poll are in favour of public executions? My, someone's keeping their puppets busy.

However, it costs millions to execute them.


Just build more jails, and upgrade the ones that can be upgraded. Releasing prisoners early because there isn't space makes zero sense and is a mockery of the justice system. The Feds should kick in some coin?

You cannot just build more jails. You have to go through a long and drawn out process and people will petition because they do not want a prison in their backyards.

I should have made my post alot clearer. They are only releasing those that have like a year left on their sentences and only those that are not in for a major crime. MICHIGAN GETS SCREWED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT :) We never recieve our fair share. :D

That's not right. I could say "100% of people who have eating cheerios will die!" Look at India, plenty of "brown" people there as you say. Their violent crime rates are lower then ours.

Indians genetically are pretty much in the Caucasian demographic. Notice I used "brown" in quotations. Homogenity seems to be a strong factor in crime. Given that Caucasian nations along with a handful of East Asian nations are typically considered the top strata of countries, and typically also contain the lower crime rates, increased immigration from lesser nations with high crime rates such as those in Africa seem to accompany a rise in crime rates in the new countries. Also note how I pointed out that the exact cause is not known, and pointed out that causes could merely be economic, and not necessarily racial. But what IS known is that one is probably more likely to be murdered in South Africa than in Japan or Luxembourg. As European nations become more diverse with immigrants from these nations the crime rate will most likely rise.

The kind of justice Gessler talks about isn't justice: it's sadism.
Which I'm having trouble understanding. I'm all for public beatings & executions; but, why the "criminal" fetish?

I found this interesting and well Texas does kill a few folks a year.

Average cost of execution (http://www.stopcapitalpunishment.org/coverage/189.html)


There is no way California is spending $250 million PER PRISONER. It has to be a typo.

Edited to add this:

In California the average cost for the death penalty is $3.2 million and $2.3 million in Texas. Life without parole is the only way to go it costs less than a third of what it costs to execute a person on death row.

So I admit it costs more to execute a prisoner than house them for life.


More reading about average (http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:Ptep4633970J:www.deathpenalty.org/pdf_files/MythsandFactsEnglish2004.pdf+average+cost+to+execute+a+person+in+california&hl=en)

Look towards the bottom on the second link.

Which I'm having trouble understanding. I'm all for public beatings & executions; but, why the "criminal" fetish?


Speaking of "fetish", if the executioners all looked like this (http://www.dvdworldonline.com/images/Ilsa_2_DVD.jpg) I would rather enjoy an afternoon of bloodletting! :p

Speaking of "fetish", if the executioners all looked like this (http://www.dvdworldonline.com/images/Ilsa_2_DVD.jpg) I would rather enjoy an afternoon of bloodletting! :p

hmmm you might be right lol

I'd have to say I'm 100% against this. What happens if the criminal is actually innocent? Unlike prison, where they are released without much diffuculty, there would be physical and emotional trauma from the beating, and if something was in fact removed from them, that severely reduces their ability to reintegrate in to society. All in all, it's unfair to use this kind of punishment; hard labor, perhaps for violent offenders, but not public punishment.

Does anyone have any other ideas why the US has more crime?
It's the wealth gap and violent culture.

I'd have to say I'm 100% against this. What happens if the criminal is actually innocent? Unlike prison, where they are released without much diffuculty, there would be physical and emotional trauma from the beating, and if something was in fact removed from them, that severely reduces their ability to reintegrate in to society. All in all, it's unfair to use this kind of punishment; hard labor, perhaps for violent offenders, but not public punishment.
Good point but how often do you get an innocent guy thrown in the big house?

It's the wealth gap and violent culture.
Lots of countries have violent culture. The Middle East has huge wealth gaps.

Good point but how often do you get an innocent guy thrown in the big house?


Good point. They just had a replay of some guy on Larry King last night who was convicted twice of a murder and rape he didn't commit. Kirk Bloodsworth.

Bloodsworth (http://archives.cnn.com/2000/LAW/06/20/bloodsworth.profile/)

Good point but how often do you get an innocent guy thrown in the big house?

Not very often, but often enough to make it a concern. Generally, the biggest risk is where DNA evidence is slim or unreliable.

Good point but how often do you get an innocent guy thrown in the big house?

Exactly. That's the entire point of the Justice System, to prevent that from happening in the first place. The problem isn't with the punishment, it's with the trials themselves. Innocent guys shouldn't be convicted in the first place. And limiting punishments because you expect innocents to land in jail is indicative of that failure in the trial aspect.

:) You all have a good night and or day or afternoon depending on where you live in this big world :)

I'm not taking sides in this issue. I would never watch somebody die without a fight, I would watch someone die in a colloseum-like facility though, with fighting and all. I do admit that both sides have their good and bad points though.

Exactly. That's the entire point of the Justice System, to prevent that from happening in the first place. The problem isn't with the punishment, it's with the trials themselves. Innocent guys shouldn't be convicted in the first place. And limiting punishments because you expect innocents to land in jail is indicative of that failure in the trial aspect.

Lawyers make looking through lies harder.

EDIT: But then again, the truth can sometimes come off as a lie. Humans weren't made to be lie-detectors.

I'll tell you what we should have, colloseums. Instead of just executing somebody on death row, send them to the colloseum and they could fight. I'd pay money to watch death row criminals fighting to the death in colloseums, and I'm not being sarcastic either. Plus, you could stand a chance of winning your freedom if you won enough fights. Better yet, we give criminals the choice of execution or colloseum fighting. That way if they don't want to fight, they could die peaceably in a private execution.

Lawyers make looking through lies harder.

Yep. That is a failure of our current Justice System. Although I can't prescribe the solution myself, I'm sure there is a better way to improve the system. It's come such a long way already and I have hope that some smart people will come up with some new ideas.

Lawyers make looking through lies harder.

EDIT: But then again, the truth can sometimes come off as a lie. Humans weren't made to be lie-detectors.

I don't like lawyers, because they pervert the system to let guilty men free .(OJ Simpson) They tend to manipulate the emotions of the jury and are generally parasites on our justice system.

Yes, that's why trial by jury and innocence until proven guilty are vital to our system.

Yep. That is a failure of our current Justice System. Although I can't prescribe the solution myself, I'm sure there is a better way to improve the system. It's come such a long way already and I have hope that some smart people will come up with some new ideas.
Maybe I'll come up with something when I have some free time. :p

http://capitaldefenseweekly.com/25casesdraft.html

How many cases is needed of wrongful execution to show that the system is flawed at best? 20? 50? 100? Or maybe it is just a matter of percentages. Break a few eggs for your omlette?

http://www.abanet.org/irr/hr/deathpen.html
"The quality of lawyers at trial for defendants in capital case is often abysmal, such that you can wind up getting the death penalty more because of how bad your lawyer was than because of how bad you were," says New York lawyer Ronald Tabak, chair of the Individual Rights & Responsibilities Section's Death Penalty Committee and an architect of the ABA's death penalty moratorium resolution. "People who commit worse crimes often don't get the death penalty if they have a better lawyer than people who commit less aggravated crimes."

I'll tell you what we should have, colloseums. Instead of just executing somebody on death row, send them to the colloseum and they could fight. I'd pay money to watch death row criminals fighting to the death in colloseums, and I'm not being sarcastic either. Plus, you could stand a chance of winning your freedom if you won enough fights.
Err, doesn't that sort of let free people who could return to violently killing people?

Maybe I'll come up with something when I have some free time. :p


K, cool. Just post it when you're done. :p

I think we should burn a few witches while we're at it. Maybe some books too.

Thats not justice- thats vengence.
They are not they same.

Who cares, kill the scumbags, they are a cancer that should be rooted out, before they ruin more peoples lives.

Kill them, yes, but give me proof that it deters criminals.

If someone is mistakenly lashed, how do you compensate someone for a false lashing? Say sorry and treat them to lunch?

Tell them its character buliding. HUR! HUR! HUR!

Ignore this guy, hes doing it for the attention.

Kill them, yes, but give me proof that it deters criminals.

Nothing will ever deter criminals except a complete gradual or hopefully overnight insight into(rare event) what utter scum they are.
Just get rid of them, at least you will keep crime from going oput of control, not to mention how much cheaper on the taxpayer a public execution is compared to life imprisonment, we'rve got better things to spend our dollars on than looking after scumbags.

I'm all for capital punishment...

...but just killing a random guy in public? That's enough to ruin anyone's day after finally getting that hard-earned promotion.

"Hey man! I just got a promot-HOLY SHIT IS THAT BOB?"

LoL.

"NO WAY! IT IS BOB!"

I'm all for capital punishment...
...but just killing a random guy in public? That's enough to ruin anyone's day after finally getting that hard-earned promotion.
"Hey man! I just got a promot-HOLY SHIT IS THAT BOB?"

Maybe it will make society take death alot more seriously, our movies glorify death and violence, maybe some close up in your face real death will earth people abit more.

Maybe it will make society take death alot more seriously, our movies glorify death and violence, maybe some close up in your face real death will earth people abit more.
I don't mind it. Desensization to violence makes us more accepting of the cruel world around us.

Nothing will ever deter criminals except a complete gradual or hopefully overnight insight into(rare event) what utter scum they are.
Just get rid of them, at least you will keep crime from going oput of control, not to mention how much cheaper on the taxpayer a public execution is compared to life imprisonment, we'rve got better things to spend our dollars on than looking after scumbags.
Like say...invading Iraq...or "fighting terrorists"...or building gulltiones in the Sawgrass Mills Mall?

Why do we have to accept the creul world? Are you giving up on this world as just a horrid place?

This is not the third world, we are supposed to be replused by detah and gore. I'm for captial punishment just because some crimes deserve death, but carrying out a beheading in general is sickening and doing it in public is even worse.

[QUOTE=Eutrusca]Corporal and/or capital punishment have never been shown to act as a deterrent, whether public or not. Public executions would probably cause either or both of the followin:

Probably because there wasnt enough.
The message would get through to the next generation of up and coming criminals, when they see all their idols being crushed unendingly, by the power of the state.


* A rise in the general level of violence in society, under the "monkey see, monkey do" principle;

I doupt people would start publically executing people just because the government does, from the horror and outrage from the majority of the squemish soft posters on here, I'd say most people would just let the police and justice system do their work, how good would you feel if you knew a group of men or youths who broke into your house, beat and tied you and your wife up, and then raped your teenage daughters in the next room, then stole off you before they left(this recently happenned in Sydney) would never hurt your family or another family again, ever.


* Total elmination of the death penalty, especially if the executions were televised.

Televised, sounds good. Just another reality show.
Maybe we could jazz up the punishments for ratings?
The possibilitys are endless.

I don't see either of these as being "a good thing."

Thats because you haven't looked at the beauty of a society where the crims walk in fear, not the law abiding taxpayers.

[QUOTE=The Velkyan Union]Why do we have to accept the creul world? Are you giving up on this world as just a horrid place?

No, thats why I support capital punishment, a world without criminals is alot nicer and less cruel, than one with them.

This is not the third world, we are supposed to be replused by detah and gore.

Tell that to all the kids and their latest video games. :rolleyes:


I'm for captial punishment just because some crimes deserve death, but carrying out a beheading in general is sickening and doing it in public is even worse.

Beheading is quick and painless, as a heavy blade that is razor sharp, dropped from a height of say six metres will end the criminals life very easily, probably showing alot more compassion to them, than what they gave to their victims.
Why not do it in public? Why hide justice?

Gessler, why do you have such a fixation with demeaning criminals? You're pulling a black and white fliter over the whole issue when really we should be looking at a grey scale. You're dealing in absolutes, if someone has committed any crime then they are scum etc. etc. but, and i'm making an inference here so i apologise if i'm wrong, hasn't everybody broken the law at some point in their lives?

No one is completely innocent of all crime, not one person. It just worries me to think that you would call a man scum for protecting his family, because assult is a crime, from being beaten themselves. I'm going to assume that you'd say that situation is different and that you have to look at it as being different from these other 'scum bag' criminals. Does the thought ever hit you to look at their story? The abused childhoods, the starving desperate situations, the heat of the moment passion? It doesn't nessisarily justify the brutal crime but i'm a firm believer in people having immunity from the law when their own and those they care about are in danger. Don't look so harshly on people you don't know.

I have no problem sitting in a cell for the rest of my life because i did what needed to be done to protect my partner and our children, whatever it takes, and i know i'd sit in that cell knowing i did the right thing I wouldn't consider myself a criminal. There'd be other men that would agree with me on that.

[QUOTE=Eastern Gondor]Gessler, why do you have such a fixation with demeaning criminals?


Demeaning? lol how dare we demean criminals. :rolleyes:

Because Im tired of hearing about the fixation our supposed justice system now has with being nice to them, and giving them rights the same as someone who doesnt break the law.


You're pulling a black and white fliter over the whole issue when really we should be looking at a grey scale.

I' talking about violent, perverted criminals, not petty theft.


You're dealing in absolutes, if someone has committed any crime then they are scum etc. etc. but, and i'm making an inference here so i apologise if i'm wrong, hasn't everybody broken the law at some point in their lives?

Probably, but anyway see my last answer.

It just worries me to think that you would call a man scum for protecting his family,

Never. A man or woman protecting their familys are heros not crims, a crim even protecting his/her family is only doing something natural, the person that would be in the wrong here, would be the person attacking his/her family as in trying to kill them.



Does the thought ever hit you to look at their story? The abused childhoods, the starving desperate situations, the heat of the moment passion?

Too bad, I have met people who have had terrible childhoods, raped etc given drugs and alcohol before they could walk, and they blamed the people who bought them up, and the slack social system, that was too scared to do anything about it.
They chose themselves the other way, not to become criminals, and to obey the law instead. Their familys ortracised them and called them 'dogs', but they are happier not knowing them, and don't really care less.
They are starting their own familys, fresh.


It doesn't nessisarily justify the brutal crime but i'm a firm believer in people having immunity from the law when their own and those they care about are in danger. Don't look so harshly on people you don't know.

Of course, I agree, you cant wave a magic wand in the air, and presto, the law is there to save you.
These people arent criminals, they are merely protecting themselves, probably from criminals.



I have no problem sitting in a cell for the rest of my life because i did what needed to be done to protect my partner and our children, whatever it takes, and i know i'd sit in that cell knowing i did the right thing I wouldn't consider myself a criminal. There'd be other men that would agree with me on that.

You appear to be saying that I support the death penalty for anyone who kills, when I don't, a fairer justice system would take certain circumstances into account.

They should only be brought back for certian crimes

Rapests/Child Molisters - should have their penis cut off then bleed to death painfully for their acts aginst man-kind (DNA testing solves all problems in this category)

Murders - Kill them the cheapest way possible if you are 100% sure they did it or make them work in sibera/Alaska for money and all the money goes to the victom's familys

Felony's - Make their punishment harsher so they think twice about doing it agian then charge them extra taxes :)

Burglary - Make them pay 2X the ammount everything they stole/broke costed and if the people within the home do something to him (Like Rip off his arm or shoot his jaw off) Its just tough luck, he shouldn't of been there to start with and maby it will teach him an important lesson in not touching other's property :mp5: :gundge: :sniper: :mp5: :gundge: :sniper:

Not listing them all but thats just to name a few

Although the odds are slim, anyone of us could be implicated in a murder rap.
It could happen.

Even you Gessler.

You may not be the "crim" type, but then again you seem to have some pent-up anger, so its bound to errupt sometime.

Point is, if something like that did happen, the system is designed to convict you only if your guilt can be proven, beyond the shadow of a doubt.
Sadly, it doesnt happen like that, and mistakes are made.
Innocent people go to prison all the time, wether you believe it or not.
Ergo, if it were you who were accused of murder, you would want all the opportunity to clear your name, that you could get.

Public beatings, and executions arent exactly condusive to the system, and you damn well know it.

I still suspect this is trolling, becuase no one in thier right mind would advocate such things, unless they were also a heartless monster, who would enjoy seeing children witness these kinds of events.

[QUOTE=BackwoodsSquatches]Although the odds are slim, anyone of us could be implicated in a murder rap.
It could happen.

Yeah well shit happens. Id die happy in the knowlege that the guys who framed me will probably be executed one day as well, sooner or later, maybe not for framing me, but for bringing themselves undone as criminal or corrupt types are bound too sooner or later.
The smell and taint of corruption will get anyone framing people sooner or later.
I'd also die happy in the knowlege that I was innocent, not guilty.



You may not be the "crim" type, but then again you seem to have some pent-up anger, so its bound to errupt sometime.

Only the frustration at seeing the law courts you support with no question get more and more on side with the criminals than the police and the law abiding public.


Point is, if something like that did happen, the system is designed to convict you only if your guilt can be proven, beyond the shadow of a doubt.
Sadly, it doesnt happen like that, and mistakes are made.

Not that much.

Innocent people go to prison all the time, wether you believe it or not.
Ergo, if it were you who were accused of murder, you would want all the opportunity to clear your name, that you could get.

Of course, especially if I was innocent. But if there is no doupt that the person did murder someone in cold blood, then all due haste to the gallows.


Public beatings, and executions arent exactly condusive to the system, and you damn well know it.

It weouldnt take long to get adjusted to them, your kids growing up with them, would wonder why you got so upset at them.


I still suspect this is trolling, becuase no one in thier right mind would advocate such things, unless they were also a heartless monster, who would enjoy seeing children witness these kinds of events.

I wouldnt enjoy anything about it, except for seeing justice carried out how it should be. You underestimate kids, if you told them the nasty criminal was about to get his head chopped off, and you approved, then it wouldnt be that great a deal to them.

[QUOTE=MGE]
Rapests/Child Molisters - should have their penis cut off then bleed to death painfully for their acts aginst man-kind (DNA testing solves all problems in this category)

Agreed, these guys should be not guillotined, they should be flung head first into a cage suspended above a cliff, filled with starving pissed off enraged baboons, who while sedated had their teeth and claws sharpened to razor points.

I wouldnt enjoy anything about it, except for seeing justice carried out how it should be. You underestimate kids, if you told them the nasty criminal was about to get his head chopped off, and you approved, then it wouldnt be that great a deal to them.

Oh thats great!

So with each passing generation, we can let the value of human life decline to the point to where we see anyone who commits a crime, as no longer human!

Hell..lets just send em to the gulag right now!

Youre a frickin genius!

[QUOTE=BackwoodsSquatches]Oh thats great!
So with each passing generation, we can let the value of human life decline to the point to where we see anyone who commits a crime, as no longer human!

No we assign value properly to the people who deserve it, if people one day were seeing a man about to be executed and there was serious questions about his guilt, they would react differently to this than to seeing a known scumbag about to get the chop, the general consenses would probably be as it it used to, you knew the penalty, you only have yourself to blame, we have no sympathy for you, only pity.



Hell..lets just send em to the gulag right now!

No, that just creates more criminals.

Youre a frickin genius!

I know.

No we assign value properly to the people who deserve it, if people one day were seeing a man about to be executed and there was serious questions about his guilt, they would react differently to this than to seeing a known scumbag about to get the chop, the general consenses would probably be as it it used to, you knew the penalty, you only have yourself to blame, we have no sympathy for you, only pity.Bullshit. Serious questions about guilt have never prevented people from being convinced that someone was guilty. You'll always find enough people to support it no matter how innocent the peson is.


No, that just creates more criminals.


I know. :)
[/QUOTE]I'm pretty sure you know he was being sarcastic.

=Laerod]Bullshit. Serious questions about guilt have never prevented people from being convinced that someone was guilty. You'll always find enough people to support it no matter how innocent the peson is.

Yeah right. :rolleyes:

I'm pretty sure you know he was being sarcastic.
And I was being faecicious. :)

No we assign value properly to the people who deserve it, if people one day were seeing a man about to be executed and there was serious questions about his guilt, they would react differently to this than to seeing a known scumbag about to get the chop, the general consenses would probably be as it it used to, you knew the penalty, you only have yourself to blame, we have no sympathy for you, only pity.

And who is is this final arbitrator of the value of human life going to be?

You, or some nutbag like you?

You want someone with little or no regard to human life to decide your fate?

You might just have more to be afraid fo than you think.

Whos going to decide what the difference is between the severity of crimes commited?

Most importantly, you keep saying this opinion, as demented, and plainly dumb as it is, as if you could speak for an entire crowd, or have some abilty to gauge a reaction from a hypothetical crowd.

Do you have a background in psychology?

I doubt it.

Truth be told, from your posts, I dont think you know much of anything about people at all.

Yeah right. :rolleyes:

Do you understand German? I can give you a damn good example of what I mean if you do.

Do you understand German? I can give you a damn good example of what I mean if you do.

Give the example anyway... I'm curious...

This (http://www.bildblog.de/?p=688) is an example of how convinced some people were that someone had comitted a crime. Now, ten years later, the real criminal was caught.

[QUOTE=BackwoodsSquatches]And who is is this final arbitrator of the value of human life going to be?
You, or some nutbag like you?

The only nutbags are ones like you who see reason to give criminals every possible chance to break back into society and commit more crime, I swear your some part of a greater evil whether you know it or not, I suspect you do, and get off on being part of some kind of social wrecking device, see how much you like it when you are on the recieving end of violent criminal behaviour, your soft little naive views will change dramatically I promise you

You want someone with little or no regard to human life to decide your fate?

The person probably has alot of regard and compassion for human life, thats why he/she executes criminal scum to ensure this.



You might just have more to be afraid fo than you think.

Im not a crim, so I have nothing to fear from the law.

Whos going to decide what the difference is between the severity of crimes commited?

A much improved court system what else.


Most importantly, you keep saying this opinion, as demented, and plainly dumb as it is, as if you could speak for an entire crowd, or have some abilty to gauge a reaction from a hypothetical crowd.

My hypothetical crowds have existed all throughout history, thrilled to see justice carried out, abit of excitement too.
I see no reason why people wouldnt be the same again.
People as much as you wish otherwise, havent changed that much in the last few hundred years.

Do you have a background in psychology?

No, and Im glad not too.
Frauds. Preying for the most part now, on human misery.



Truth be told, from your posts, I dont think you know much of anything about people at all.

I know quite abit actually, I'm an excellent judge of character, and I don't think you have any.

This (http://www.bildblog.de/?p=688) is an example of how convinced some people were that someone had comitted a crime. Now, ten years later, the real criminal was caught.

Wow... that's a crass example of the effects of demagogy. Although it is good to hear that the culprit was found after all.

This (http://www.bildblog.de/?p=688) is an example of how convinced some people were that someone had comitted a crime. Now, ten years later, the real criminal was caught.

I know alittle German, and you have a huge amount of concern for someone innocent being executed, mistake or framed, but not much concern about victims rights from violent criminals.

[QUOTE]

Agreed, these guys should be not guillotined, they should be flung head first into a cage suspended above a cliff, filled with starving pissed off enraged baboons, who while sedated had their teeth and claws sharpened to razor points.

That would be cruel to the baboons, maby just test kill-bots on them :D

I know alittle German, and you have a huge amount of concern for someone innocent being executed, mistake or framed, but not much concern about victims rights from violent criminals.

Some people believe equality to be inalienable...

[QUOTE=Gessler]

That would be cruel to the baboons, maby just test kill-bots on them :D

Your right that would be cruel to animals to make them eat such filth.
Tell me about these killbots?

Some people believe equality to be inalienable...

So?

[QUOTE]

The only nutbags are ones like you who see reason to give criminals every possible chance to break back into society and commit more crime, I swear your some part of a greater evil whether you know it or not, I suspect you do, and get off on being part of some kind of social wrecking device, see how much you like it when you are on the recieving end of violent criminal behaviour, your soft little naive views will change dramatically I promise you

Once again you know nothing about that wich you ramble on about.
You dont know me, or my "naive" views.
If this word were left to people like you....Hitler would have won the second world war.





The person probably has alot of regard and compassion for human life, thats why he/she executes criminal scum to ensure this.

Your missing so many good points by everyone..so lets focus on this one:
YOU COULD BE A CRIMNAL...
It could happen to you...wether by accident or not.

I would dare say that you have broken many laws in your lifetime..possibly even a violent one or two, in your youth maybe?





Im not a crim, so I have nothing to fear from the law.

There but for the grace of God, Bozo.



A much improved court system who else.

Spew.




My hypothetical crowds have existed all throughout history, thrilled to see justice carried out, abit of excitement too.
I see know reason why people wouldnt be the same again.
People as much as you wish otherwise, havent changed that much in the last few hundred years.

Have you not noticed that civilzed nations have outlawed that kind of thing?

Why do you suppose?



No, and Im glad not too.
Frauds. Preying for the most part now, on human misery.

Thats too bad, sounds like you have a lot of anger you could live without.
Maybe you should speak with one.

Otherwise, all that anger you have for these evil vile crimnals who are waiting on your doorstep to pounce on you in the night, might come boiling out and be targeted on someone like me who would gleefully beat the crap out of a obnoxious megalomanic like yourself.





uite abit actually, I'm an excellent judge of character, and I don't think you have any.

Words cannot express the full measure of my doubt of this statement.

I know alittle German, and you have a huge amount of concern for someone innocent being executed, mistake or framed, but not much concern about victims rights from violent criminals.That is probably one of the stupidest responses I've ever had.
Aside from the point that the link describes a case in which Germany's largest daily newspaper publicly incriminated the wrong guy and fails to make up for it now that the real perpetrator confessed, you didn't address what I was saying. There is no way you can claim that I'm more concerned for potential executees than for victims.
I have a problem with executing people because they might just be innocent. Execution has something irrevocable about it. Should they manage to catch the real guy ten years later and had they executed the person they thought it was, they won't be able to set the innocent guy free anymore. I have no problem with keeping a child molester or a murderer behind bars for the rest of his or her life.
That aside, this has nothing to do with my criticism of your statement that reasonable doubts about a convicts guilt when he's about to get executed would result in a public outcry. You're trying to dodge my arguements.

Agreed, these guys should be not guillotined, they should be flung head first into a cage suspended above a cliff, filled with starving pissed off enraged baboons, who while sedated had their teeth and claws sharpened to razor points.And how is doing something like that better than molesting a child? It's just as sick and disgusting.

[QUOTE=Laerod]That is probably one of the stupidest responses I've ever had.
Aside from the point that the link describes a case in which Germany's largest daily newspaper publicly incriminated the wrong guy and fails to make up for it now that the real perpetrator confessed, you didn't address what I was saying. There is no way you can claim that I'm more concerned for potential executees than for victims.


I know what your saying :rolleyes: dumpkofe! I just dont agree with your stance on every criminal being executed being possibly innocent.


I have a problem with executing people because they might just be innocent.

Even if their undeniably, and overwhelmingly guilty?


Execution has something irrevocable about it.

Yeah, no shit. Its called death. :rolleyes:

Should they manage to catch the real guy ten years later and had they executed the person they thought it was, they won't be able to set the innocent guy free anymore. I have no problem with keeping a child molester or a murderer behind bars for the rest of his or her life.

This tired old chestnut is wheeled out time after time by you leftists, the truth is, its rare that someone innocent gets executed, and alot of crims who do get executed wrongly, usually recieve what is called poetic justice, for all the crime they committed, that they got away with, indeed alot of crims get set up by frustrated police who cant pin a crime on them, because of ridiculous tecnnicalitys that get the criminals off in court.
Personally I thank these brave police for risking their careers, to see scum put away for good.


That aside, this has nothing to do with my criticism of your statement that reasonable doubts about a convicts guilt when he's about to get executed would result in a public outcry. You're trying to dodge my arguements.

I answered it perfectly, you just didnt like the answer.

And how is doing something like that better than molesting a child? It's just as sick and disgusting.
I must agree with you here, we would be tortureing innocent baboons, If he lives from blood loss maby we can have surgan's practice on him so that they can save other people's lives

And how is doing something like that better than molesting a child? It's just as sick and disgusting.

Not really, and nothing is worse than molesting or killing a child.
You have silly prioritys mate, their only child molesters, who cares what happens to them.

So you want to go and put some guy in the middle of a public place and say, "This guy killed someone, so where going to kill him," isn't that hipocracy?

They tried that for a long time in britian you know, it didn't work, you know what all studies show, people carry out crime no matter how strong the punishment is. They'll do it even if they go to jail or are killed. To stop crime you need to deal with what creates it-Lack of education, jobs and money. Tackle that and you tackle crime.

Or maybe you'd prefer to just kill everyone who makes a mistake huh? Heres a situation okay, a mugger steps out to mug a normal guy who accedently kills the mugger-the mans a murderer isn't he. So in your scenario he'd be strung up in a mall and hung.

Now what happens if 10 years later it turned out that guy you killed didn't actually kill the mugger, strangly enough i don't see how you can apologise to him, or bring him bak, that makes you a murderer dosn't it.

Now maybe I'm just a stupid liberal nutjob, or maybe I've got a point. Maybe to lock 'em up would be a worse sentence, deaths a little final don't you think, how about lock 'em up in a room and throw away the key and let them think about what they've done. And if new everdence comes up then you can set them free and apologise.

I know what your saying :rolleyes: dumpkofe! I just dont agree with your stance on every criminal being executed being possibly innocent.Obviously not. And if you don't know how to spell in German, don't bother using it. So you don't think that people might possibly get accused falsesly and executed, however small the chance? Must be fun to live in your dream world. In real life, this does happen, more often than you'd think.

Even if their undeniably, and overwhelmingly guilty?
That usually only happens when they confess, in which case I oppose the death penalty anyway.

Yeah, no shit. Its called death. :rolleyes:
Yeah, no shit, I'm glad you noticed.
This tired old chestnut is wheeled out time after time by you leftists, the truth is, its rare that someone innocent gets executed, and alot of crims who do get executed wrongly, usually recieve what is called poetic justice, for all the crime they committed, that they got away with, indeed alot of crims get set up by frustrated police who cant pin a crime on them, because of ridiculous tecnnicalitys that get the criminals off in court.
Personally I thank these brave police for risking their careers, to see scum put away for good.Really? Tell that inmates in Iranian, North Korean, Chinese or even American death rows.
You say it's rare for innocents to get executed and then you give the reason why it happens. Way to go, you just shot yourself in the foot.

I answered it perfectly, you just didnt like the answer.No, you didn't. I said that the public can easily be misguided and gave an example where a big newspaper had been wrong. You in turn told me that you knew a little German and that I showed less concern for victims than for criminals. I don't see how you addressed my point at all. You were dodging my question.

Not really, and nothing is worse than molesting or killing a child.
You have silly prioritys mate, their only child molesters, who cares what happens to them.

You do, it seems. You say you want them brutally killed for your amusement. In fact, you've repeatedly called for a change in the way they are treated. It seems that you are offended that they are not being being brutally slaughtered for your titillation.

So yeah, you care about what happens to child molestors.

Cold-Blooded murder/Rape/Child Molesters have lost anything that ties them to humain meathod's, they do not belong in this world or get the honor of even being treated crummy

Not really, and nothing is worse than molesting or killing a child.
You have silly prioritys mate, their only child molesters, who cares what happens to them.In case you haven't noticed, my opinion of you isn't that high either. This has more to do with your racist views. I don't advocate you being fed to babboons, though.
Silly priorities? There's no real difference between feeding a child molester to babboons and feeding a child to babboons. Whoever's doing it is still doing something wholly disgusting. Justifying it with the former's crimes doesn't make it any less so.

Cold-Blooded murder/Rape/Child Molesters have lost anything that ties them to humain meathod's, they do not belong in this world or get the honor of even being treated crummyAnd by denying them those humaine methods, you become a monster yourself.

No, you didn't. I said that the public can easily be misguided and gave an example where a big newspaper had been wrong. You in turn told me that you knew a little German and that I showed less concern for victims than for criminals. I don't see how you addressed my point at all. You were dodging my question

Thats becuase he didnt read it, and was blowing smoke to cover his lack of research.
I speak a little German, and Babelfished the rest.
The Newspaper painted the guy as the guilty part, and influlenced public opinion of an innocent man.

He just resorted to his rhetoric when forced to actually look at what he was arguing about.

Keep diggin your own hole Gessler.

Cold-Blooded murder/Rape/Child Molesters have lost anything that ties them to humain meathod's, they do not belong in this world or get the honor of even being treated crummy

They seem to belong in Laerod and BS's world for some reason.

And by denying them those humaine methods, you become a monster yourself.
Oh Yea, lets just throw them into jail with cable TV, 3 square meals a day, a nice warm bed, Workout equiptment, sport equiptment, and why don't we throw in a plasma screen TV while were at it because this is what their being treated like because of your stupid humain meathod's that cost the tax payers $80,000+ a year -.-

They seem to belong in Laerod and BS's world for some reason.Trying to deny any connection with such scum only shows that you don't have the capacity for reasoning out what human's are like. By trying to prove you're so much better, you become a monster yourself.

Thats becuase he didnt read it, and was blowing smoke to cover his lack of research.
I speak a little German, and Babelfished the rest.
The Newspaper painted the guy as the guilty part, and influlenced public opinion of an innocent man.
He just resorted to his rhetoric when forced to actually look at what he was arguing about.
Keep diggin your own hole Gessler.

I dont see what this has to do with really anything, sorry.
One mistake doesnt mean the whole system has to be shut down, just fixed.
The only hole I'll be digging BS will be a criminals grave hopefully, not that they deserve to be buried, chuck them in a pit to the crows.

Oh Yea, lets just throw them into jail with cable TV, 3 square meals a day, a nice warm bed, Workout equiptment, sport equiptment, and why don't we throw in a plasma screen TV while were at it because this is what their being treated like because of your stupid humain meathod's that cost the tax payers $80,000+ a year -.-If it keeps them away from kids, why not? Why would they want to break out of one of those prisons and endanger society?

Oh Yea, lets just throw them into jail with cable TV, 3 square meals a day, a nice warm bed, Workout equiptment, sport equiptment, and why don't we throw in a plasma screen TV while were at it because this is what their being treated like because of your stupid humain meathod's that cost the tax payers $80,000+ a year -.-


Right.

We should definately tread them like animals so that when they do eventually get out, they go right back to what they did before.

Good idea.

/sarcasm.

Oh Yea, lets just throw them into jail with cable TV, 3 square meals a day, a nice warm bed, Workout equiptment, sport equiptment, and why don't we throw in a plasma screen TV while were at it because this is what their being treated like because of your stupid humain meathod's that cost the tax payers $80,000+ a year -.-

Don't worry, their being sexually violated doesn't cost the taxpayers a dime. Hopefully that will let some people sleep better at night, knowing that somewhere, somehow, some prison inmate is being brutally raped. He'll probably live though, until he gets stabbed.

There, is that horrible treatment enough? Brutal prison rape and a healthy does of stabbing? No? People want to actually see them? Then go watch snuff films or something.

If it keeps them away from kids, why not? Why would they want to break out of one of those prisons and endanger society?
-.- Are you a complete and total BAKA!!!! That gives people more of a reason to murder because you will have the easy life without working a day

Cold-Blooded murder/Rape/Child Molesters have lost anything that ties them to humain meathod's, they do not belong in this world or get the honor of even being treated crummy

No they haven't.
I speak as a victim here, and while I support seeking justice for every offense, I oppose the notion that rapists or child molesters loose any of their human rights.
I was molested as a child, and NOBODY is going to kill the person who molested me in my name.

I dont see what this has to do with really anything, sorry.
One mistake doesnt mean the whole system has to be shut down, just fixed.
The only hole I'll be digging BS will be a criminals grave hopefully, not that they deserve to be buried, chuck them in a pit to the crows.You just gave another example of how you continue to dodge my original question, that's what it has to do with anything. And at least we agree that you're digging a criminal's grave.

[QUOTE=Laerod]Trying to deny any connection with such scum only shows that you don't have the capacity for reasoning out what human's are like.

What possible connection could I have with a murderer or child molester, unless I was one myself?
I more than know what humans can be like, trust me.

By trying to prove you're so much better, you become a monster yourself.
Idiot. I already know I'm better, because I wouldnt stoop to such depravity.
I dont have to prove anything. I love children for the beautiful interesting people they are, not in the sick perverted way a child molester reasons.
How you psychobabbled me into being a monster as great as a child molester, for wanting him removed him from society, thus ensuring the chances of him screwing up more innocent childrens lives not happenning, is beyond my comprehension, you truly are one twisted sick fucked up individual to think so.