NationStates Jolt Archive

But it's not what you think.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050513/NEWS01/505130470

Jury rejects prayer defense in baby's death
Couple who turned to church instead of doctors when newborn was ill may face 8 years in prison.

By Paul Bird
paul.bird@indystar.com

FRANKLIN, Ind. -- A Johnson County jury found a husband and wife guilty of reckless homicide refusing to seek medical treatment to help their gravely ill newborn daughter, relying instead on prayer.

The infant died about 31 hours after her birth.

Maleta Schmidt, 30, and Dewayne Schmidt, 35, rural Franklin, each face up to eight years in prison.

What the Schmidts did to help their critically ill daughter, Rhianna Rose Schmidt, was not disputed at trial. They never sought medical assistance or treatment. An autopsy showed Rhianna died of sepsis, a blood infection contracted at birth -- an infection that could have been cured easily, a doctor testified.

Rhianna did not breathe for 38 minutes after birth, Maleta Schmidt testified. The infant stopped breathing three other times.

The Schmidts testified that in each instance, they turned to prayer and the elders of the General Assembly and Church of the First Born to heal her.

General Assembly and Church of the First Born members have said they are free to seek medical assistance.

In some neglect cases, Indiana law allows religious conviction as a defense. But in 1986, the Indiana Supreme Court made a distinction between child neglect that results in serious injury and neglect that results in a child's death.

The nine women and three men reached their verdict about 5:45 p.m. Thursday, nearly 61/2 hours after deliberations began.

Johnson Superior Court Judge Cynthia Emkes ordered a court-appointed guardian to oversee the medical welfare of the Schmidts' two other children.

The Schmidts were indicted by a grand jury in the Oct. 19, 2003, death of their daughter. She was born at home two days earlier.

Other children associated with the church also have died from lack of medical assistance.

In 1999, 12-year-old Bradley Glenn Hamm, of Indiana, died of untreated pneumonia. Bradley was the second of three children of Wesley and Laronda Hamm to die. Another child died in Arkansas. Criminal charges were not filed in those cases.

After their third child died in California, criminal charges were filed. The Hamms pleaded guilty to child neglect leading to death and are in a California prison.

In her closing argument Thursday, the Schmidts' attorney, Carrie Miles, characterized the case as a church vs. state issue. If jurors convicted the Schmidts, she said, they would be saying there is freedom of religion -- "as long as you agree with the state."

Deputy Prosecutor Matt Solomon told jurors faith is no excuse.

"Religious beliefs are not a free pass," Solomon said in his closing argument.

Miles was disappointed by the verdict but said she respects the jury's decision.

"We put our faith in the jury," she said.

After the court session, Maleta and Dewayne Schmidt and Miles huddled in the courtroom. About 40 supporters waited in silence 10 minutes before Dewayne Schmidt told them he appreciated their support and he loved them.

Schmidt invited the entire group to meet at Miles' Franklin office after leaving court.

The Schmidts were released while awaiting sentencing July 21.

Miles would not discuss an appeal, saying she would wait to see what sentence is issued.

"I would hope for a suspended sentence," Miles said. "These are the people you want as a next-door neighbor."
Hey, I have a question, by the way. If faith can move mountains, then, honestly... Couldn't a Christian MOVE a mountain with faith?

I mean.. Stand at the side of Mount Everest...

"It's gonna move! It's gonna move! I have faith! I believe! I believe! Hallelujah!"

During the Middle Ages, the Catholic Church did faith-healing. When the Bubonic Plague came around, it was clear what nonsense that was. So, why the hell do we still believe in this now?

But it's not what you think.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050513/NEWS01/505130470


Hey, I have a question, by the way. If faith can move mountains, then, honestly... Couldn't a Christian MOVE a mountain with faith?

I mean.. Stand at the side of Mount Everest...

"It's gonna move! It's gonna move! I have faith! I believe! I believe! Hallelujah!"

During the Middle Ages, the Catholic Church did faith-healing. When the Bubonic Plague came around, it was clear what nonsense that was. So, why the hell do we still believe in this now?


Somehow, I highly doubt the apostles preserved a continous chain of laying-on-hands to each successive generation....


Edit: And, (yes, I reserve the right to begin sentences with "and") to answer your question, God works through physicians to cure illnesses if He wills the person to live. He doesn't instantly heal anyone in the blink of an eye.

There's no cure for stupidity yet, is there? :rolleyes:

There's a difference between faith and what they did.

I could move a mountain and I don't need prayer. Just give me a pickaxe and a shovel and lots and lots of time. I'll at least move part of the mountain.

But it's not what you think.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050513/NEWS01/505130470

Hey, I have a question, by the way. If faith can move mountains, then, honestly... Couldn't a Christian MOVE a mountain with faith?

I mean.. Stand at the side of Mount Everest...

"It's gonna move! It's gonna move! I have faith! I believe! I believe! Hallelujah!"

During the Middle Ages, the Catholic Church did faith-healing. When the Bubonic Plague came around, it was clear what nonsense that was. So, why the hell do we still believe in this now?
Because, for some people, hope springs eternal ... sad, demented and misguided in cases like this, but hope nevertheless.

The Bible does in fact, say that "If you have the faith of a grain of mustard seed, you will be able to say unto this mountain, 'Be thou removed and cast into the sea,' and it shall be done."

Some Christian theologians attempt to explain away the lack of miracles in the modern world by saying that "the age of miracles has passed; we're under a new dispensation." There is, however, nothing in the Bible which would support this contention.

What many Christians fail to remember is that the Bible says, "Faith [ itself ] is a gift from God, [ and ] not from yourselves, so that no man may boast of it." Soooo ... if there is an absence of "miracles" in the modern world, the reason for it is that ( according to the Bible ) God has not seen fit to bestow great faith on any of his followers.

Okay, they can pray for their daughter to be alright, I have no problem with that. But if she's dieing and they didn't get her to a doctor, well, that's just stupid. Unfortunately, putting them in jail won't keep them from being stupid, but it may stop others.

That was utter crap. I agree with the jury's decision, since bringing the child to a doctor has nothing to do with religious beliefs.

Idiots.

The ironic thing is... I'll bet those people were anti-abortionists... :rolleyes:

As an interesting side note, scientific studies have been conducted which prove that the health of people, animals and plants can be improved by praying for, or meditating about, them.

http://dosseydossey.com/larry/default.html

http://home.xnet.com/~spindrif/index.htm

I wrote a brief summary of this several years ago, which can be found at http://paradigmassociates.org/ParadigmSpirituality.html

This is not a case of the state vs religion like the defendents lawyer tried to make it seem. This is a case of a childs parents neglecting their duties as parents and in the end causing the death of their child. The jury in Indiana was not saying that the parents did not have a right to freedom of faith. What the jury was saying is that your freedom of faith ENDS when it threatens the life of another human being. Not only that, but where in the Bible does it say " Thou shall not see a doctor "? If someone can find that verse, then please let me know. Also, if your faith allows you to put anothers life in danger, then whats to stop these people doing something A la Osama Bin Laden style. Christians in this country are the first to talk about Love, Understanding and the Value of Life, but only when it suites their purpose. Why is it okay to let a child die for the sake of faith, but its not okay for someone like Terri Schivo to die in peace and quite?

There's a difference between faith and what they did.

Precisely. This is a case of child neglect, which lead to death.

I believe that prayer can have a profound effect on ones morale while sick (helped me), but if you don't back that up with real medicine and health care...then you're just asking for death.

The ironic thing is... I'll bet those people were anti-abortionists... :rolleyes:



Them's fightin' words!

They should be sentenced to death for letting there child die cuase they where to dumb to take her to a doctor. I am sorry, I believe in God but I dont think he/she should be brought into public Contervery. That is Wrong, If I was god I would strike them dead :sniper: for being so dumb!

I've heard it before and we will all hear it again. The title is inflammatory and is not correct. Religious extremism does not excuse stupidity. If they wern't Amish, or similar anti-techonlogy sects who have been like thats for decades, it is their own stupid fault - and I'm sure the Amish don't just sit around praying and nothing else

I agree with what Bolol. I'm Roman Catholic and I to Believe in God. However, I'm also smart enough to know when its time to seek REAL treatment. Prayer is all fine and good. BUt its not the same as going to the doctor.

The ironic thing is... I'll bet those people were anti-abortionists... :rolleyes:


i hate those guys

As an interesting side note, scientific studies have been conducted which prove that the health of people, animals and plants can be improved by praying for, or meditating about, them.

http://dosseydossey.com/larry/default.html

http://home.xnet.com/~spindrif/index.htm

I wrote a brief summary of this several years ago, which can be found at http://paradigmassociates.org/ParadigmSpirituality.html
The research for that is sketchy. And actually, it could merely love, not necessarily faith. There have been studies to show that plants grow faster (and kids do better on tests) while listening to classical music. Also, they did a study which showed that plants which are "loved," grow faster... Whatever that means. I have no idea how you love a plant or set up the conditions for that, in order to do an experiment.

Furthermore, there was a classic psychology experiment which, in my opinion, proves faith's power to some extent. They gave two groups of college students several dozen mice that were completely identical. They told the college students that one group of mice was smart and one group of mice was dumb.

So, then, they had the college students run the mice through mazes, several times. Despite the fact that the mice before the experiment got identical times... After the experiment, the "smart," mice did better and the "slow," mice did worse. The psychological answer is that the college students unknowingly did several gestures and sub-consciously changed their actions, to somehow improve or hinder the mice's performance. I wouldn't rule out faith as a possibility, though.

And finally, decades of research in the Psychology of Religion has shown that being religious, regardless of one's religion, has a positive impact on virtually every facet of one's life.

"Ignorance is the greatest poverty." - Ali ibn Abu-Talib

There's no cure for stupidity yet, is there? :rolleyes:
hear,hear

Ihatevacations']I've heard it before and we will all hear it again. The title is inflammatory and is not correct. Religious extremism does not excuse stupidity. If they wern't Amish, or similar anti-techonlogy sects who have been like thats for decades, it is their own stupid fault - and I'm sure the Amish don't just sit around praying and nothing else

If I remember correctly, the Amish would seek medical treatment. They are not generally opposed to everything modern, they are just very picky on wht they regard as necessary. A doctor and medical treatment IS necessary for a dying child...

If I remember correctly, the Amish would seek medical treatment. They are not generally opposed to everything modern, they are just very picky on wht they regard as necessary. A doctor and medical treatment IS necessary for a dying child...
exactly, the amish may like to live by thereselves in no technology land but they arn't wackos with easily moldable minds like many of the people in various christian sects that do things like this. they have been convinced by their christian extremist sect that doctors are bad and they should pray and if their kid isn't better its because they didnt believe enough and shit like that

I think this is a pretty clearcut case as well, with some disturbing implications, however. I'm a Catholic, and have no problem with praying for my daughter, or anyone else. However, I would pray for them WHILE medical treatment was being administered, not in place of it. God gave us faith. He also gave us intellect and curiosity, which has lead to massive advances in science and human ability. It is no sin to rely on those God-given abilities which doctors have which allow them to heal the sick, in cooperation with the will of God. He cares for us, and wants us to live full and healthy lives. I think that's part of the reason for all the religious commandments He gave the Jews in the Old Testament. Back then, humans knew next to nothing...so he told them to wash themselves, to obey certain dietary restrictions, to abstain from risky and dangerous behavior. That's modern medicine. Most people will live healthy lives if they obey certain (now) common sense rules of hygiene, diet, and behavior.

The disturbing implications I referred to involve the religious connotations. In this case, the church permitted medical help. There were probably people in the church suggesting that maybe they should see a doctor, in addition to prayer. However I am sure there are some religions wholly against medical intervention. What then? I would still probably agree with the verdict, but that does then seem like an infringement on their religious liberties. Just because I think that the religion is stupid and complete nonsense doesn't mean that it's illegal to follow its tenants. Like I said...I think there is a certain limit here, but it's still a tricky issue if taken to the extreme.

And finally, decades of research in the Psychology of Religion has shown that being religious, regardless of one's religion, has a positive impact on virtually every facet of one's life.

I know atheists who are happy, even moreso then any christians I meet. Most fundamentalist christians and religious people I know are bitter.

The child was ill, and the punishment was appropriate, if a bit inadequate. This was simply child neglect. They should of went to a doctor. Prayer just doesn't cut it.

And finally, decades of research in the Psychology of Religion has shown that being religious, regardless of one's religion, has a positive impact on virtually every facet of one's life.

What if you're a religious pessimist? (i.e. assume you are going to hell because you cant seem to keep to your belief of how a good religious person should act)

I would still probably agree with the verdict, but that does then seem like an infringement on their religious liberties. Just because I think that the religion is stupid and complete nonsense doesn't mean that it's illegal to follow its tenants. Like I said...I think there is a certain limit here, but it's still a tricky issue if taken to the extreme.
Religious liberty stops when it puts peoples lives in danger - ie denying children from seeing doctors. adults have the ability to choose to not see doctors, they have the right to be dipshits; however, they do not have the right to endanger others who don't agree to the tenants of the faith

Humans are naturally born with free will, and (supposedly) can acquire common sense. Blind faith is no substitute. The parents neglected the child, which resulted in her death. They should be tried accordingly.

But it's not what you think.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050513/NEWS01/505130470

Hey, I have a question, by the way. If faith can move mountains, then, honestly... Couldn't a Christian MOVE a mountain with faith?

I mean.. Stand at the side of Mount Everest...

"It's gonna move! It's gonna move! I have faith! I believe! I believe! Hallelujah!"

During the Middle Ages, the Catholic Church did faith-healing. When the Bubonic Plague came around, it was clear what nonsense that was. So, why the hell do we still believe in this now?
I feel sorry for such naive people. I don't condemn them.

I know atheists who are happy, even moreso then any christians I meet. Most fundamentalist christians and religious people I know are bitter.

The child was ill, and the punishment was appropriate, if a bit inadequate. This was simply child neglect. They should of went to a doctor. Prayer just doesn't cut it.



Hmm, you must not be exposed to many religious people then, because we are the happiest lot on the earth :D

Hmm, you must not be exposed to many religious people then, because we are the happiest lot on the earth :D

Yep, those two parents sure are the happiest people on the earth....

Yep, those two parents sure are the happiest people on the earth....



Please append this "in general" sign to the end of my statement.

The ironic thing is... I'll bet those people were anti-abortionists... :rolleyes:totally uncalled for.

I am neutral on the issue...but I call your "foul" play.

totally uncalled for.

I am neutral on the issue...but I call your "foul" play.

I never said they were. That was just one of the first thoughts that entered my mind...

I know atheists who are happy, even moreso then any christians I meet. Most fundamentalist christians and religious people I know are bitter.

The child was ill, and the punishment was appropriate, if a bit inadequate. This was simply child neglect. They should of went to a doctor. Prayer just doesn't cut it.

The reason many fundamentalists are "bitter" is because they are simply not allowed to have any kind of joy or emotion. Their beliefs totally suppress emotion and entertainment in order to keep their zealotry alive; it functions much in the same way as repressing sexuality did in 1984, it turns the pent-up emotion in to religious zealotry by repressing all other forms of expressing it.

Religion is no excuse for allowing your child to die. It is neglesct, and religion is no excuse for that behavior.

The reason many fundamentalists are "bitter" is because they are simply not allowed to have any kind of joy or emotion. Their beliefs totally suppress emotion and entertainment in order to keep their zealotry alive; it functions much in the same way as repressing sexuality did in 1984, it turns the pent-up emotion in to religious zealotry by repressing all other forms of expressing it.

Religion is no excuse for allowing your child to die. It is neglesct, and religion is no excuse for that behavior.



Huh? I suppose if sexual promiscuity is the only source of joy/emotion then you might be right :rolleyes:

Huh? I suppose if sexual promiscuity is the only source of joy/emotion then you might be right :rolleyes:

*lol... If you think that's all we do all day long... :D

Huh? I suppose if sexual promiscuity is the only source of joy/emotion then you might be right :rolleyes:


Well, that's one kind of entertainment, but not the kind I was thinking of. :p

Hmm, you must not be exposed to many religious people then, because we are the happiest lot on the earth :D

Either that or you don't encounter many atheists :P.

Either that or you don't encounter many atheists :P.

Or neither of you encounter many pagans. ^_^

I don't see this as a issue of religious freedom. In my opinion it is a issue of competing civil rights: the parent's vs the child's. The parents had the right to be any religion of their chosing and (in my opinion) refuse treatment for themselves based on those convictions. the question was whether the child had rights of her own or was she merely an extention of the parents. I think the court made the correct decision.

But it's not what you think.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050513/NEWS01/505130470


Hey, I have a question, by the way. If faith can move mountains, then, honestly... Couldn't a Christian MOVE a mountain with faith?

I mean.. Stand at the side of Mount Everest...

"It's gonna move! It's gonna move! I have faith! I believe! I believe! Hallelujah!"

During the Middle Ages, the Catholic Church did faith-healing. When the Bubonic Plague came around, it was clear what nonsense that was. So, why the hell do we still believe in this now?
the problem is this...any Christian who had faith like that would not, under any stretch of the imagination, want to move a mountain. and may i remind you how un-Christian midieval catholics acted.

the problem is this...any Christian who had faith like that would not, under any stretch of the imagination, want to move a mountain. and may i remind you how un-Christian midieval catholics acted.

You say that like the various other Christian denominations have never acted unChristian-like. Besides I believe that God will only provide miracles when they are needed, not whenever someone feels like it.

Wow. Just wow.

I wonder if sometimes God himself looks down at humanity, shakes his head and mutters "I should have stay'd in bed."

Wow. Just wow.

I wonder if sometimes God himself looks down at humanity, shakes his head and mutters "I should have stay'd in bed."

Or says "Next time... 80 days and nights from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."

But it's not what you think.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050513/NEWS01/505130470


Hey, I have a question, by the way. If faith can move mountains, then, honestly... Couldn't a Christian MOVE a mountain with faith?

I mean.. Stand at the side of Mount Everest...

"It's gonna move! It's gonna move! I have faith! I believe! I believe! Hallelujah!"

During the Middle Ages, the Catholic Church did faith-healing. When the Bubonic Plague came around, it was clear what nonsense that was. So, why the hell do we still believe in this now?

I have faith in the science of tectonic plate movements and so those mountains will move. In time.
Of course they'd move even if I didn't have faith.
There's no telling if they'd move if no-one was here to believe in them moving though. Hey that's almost zen.

The main subject here is about choice to take medical treatment. You can choose not to be treated yourself, JW's do that, but how can you choose for anyone else?

I could move a mountain and I don't need prayer. Just give me a pickaxe and a shovel and lots and lots of time. I'll at least move part of the mountain.

I'd prefer using a 5 megaton thermonuclear weapon, the mountain in question will be spread over a couple (thousand) square kilometers.

I'm 95% sure that it says somewhere in a Judeo-Christian religious text that you are obligated to do all you can to help save a human life, and that simply praying to God doesn't cut it. Something along the lines of God helps those who helps themselves?

Maybe I'm just thinking of some Christian cliche or maybe it's in the Talmud and therefore only [institutionally] part of Judaism.

No matter, it seems that we all share the same consensus on this subject (albeit with different opinions regarding what should happen to people like the parents), and the remaining side talk seems to be underhanded attacks and bickering between religious and non-religious people.

That said, 8 years isn't enough. Also, I'm really starting to consider the idea that sterilization should be integrated into our law system.

I totally agree with that. If they had only prayed when they were themselves are ill, then we could accept it. But as parents they dont have a right to neglect medical needs of their children. And i also accept that parents could be sterilised if they intentionally do nothing to give proper care to their children. I live in Turkey where contraception is totally free and paid by government, and some people still continue to have children when they have difficulty to feed the ones they allready have. So i sometimes think that, government takes their children and have them sterilised because i even heard someone bragging that he has lots of children and have them fed by others for free. :headbang:

Them's fightin' words!

Maybe they are, doesn't make it any less likely to be true.