NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.gjsentinel.com/classifieds/content/shared/news/nation/stories/07/29MUSLIM_FATWA.html

This is very good news, and I hope more Muslims around the world will speak out loudly and often against the radical Moslem terrorists.

It's a start, but words aren't going to stop terrorists. I'll be more optimistic when the Muslim community starts turning in the terrorists. Words by themselves mean nothing.

It's a start, but words aren't going to stop terrorists. I'll be more optimistic when the Muslim community starts turning in the terrorists. Words by themselves mean nothing.

I agree. I think they will start turning in the terrorists for a few reasons. First, if they don't start more people outside the Muslim community will fee all Muslims condone the terrorist actions. Secondly, if they don't start turning the terrorists in there might be a backlash against them. Third, the terrorists don't care if they kill fellow Muslims so by turning the radicals in they are protecting their own community.

Thats an excellent move, but why wasn't it done 4 years ago, or even earlier?

You can bet that one of the keys to the success of the British authorities is that Muslims HAVE been turning in the radicals amongst them. Nothing has been mentioned much along these lines in the news yet (over here at least). Its just a hunch, but I don't think the success would have come so swift otherwise.

It's a start, but words aren't going to stop terrorists. I'll be more optimistic when the Muslim community starts turning in the terrorists. Words by themselves mean nothing.
Words do help. If enough Muslim clerics issue rulings that place terrorism outside Islam it makes the job of recruiting new terrorists harder. The terrorist leaders can't just say that Islam endorses terrorism. They have to first build a case that most Muslims are traitors to their faith. This means the recruiters need to do more work and will probably still get fewer volunteers.

Sorry, but I don't know much about the Islamic faith... what is a "Fatwa"? I've heard that it's a condemnation by the religion.

Sorry, but I don't know much about the Islamic faith... what is a "Fatwa"? I've heard that it's a condemnation by the religion.
It's a ruling on where Islam stands on a certain issue. A muslim could issue a Fatwah that says anything from "Democracy is an acceptable form of government" to "It is necessary for muslims to support the war effort against (insert nation here) in defense of Islam". The only requirement is that the Fatwah must be supported by the Koran and support from the Hadiths don't hurt.

Please note that I'm not a Muslim. This is just what I've been able to learn about the subject and my reply may be flawed.

A Fatwa is a religious judgement in Islam.

You have probably heard about the fatwa in the context of Salman Rushdie, where a fatwa was issued by Shia clerics -- most notably the Ayatholla Khomeini -- that demanded the execution of Mr. Rushdie.

However, a fatwa can be issued on pretty much any topic, and it can take any form. You have to think about it more in terms of a legal opinion by a lawyer, rather than a law set down by parliament, or a judgement set down by a judge in court.

So, you can have different muslim scholars issue different fatwas on the same topic, and a Muslim then may choose to follow one or another.

I'm not going into more detail here, as I am simple telling you what I have heard and read about the topic -- I am not a Muslim, and I am not a scholar of religion.

Ha ha, had I waited about 20 seconds, I could have saved myself the bother. Well, seems 'drunk' has read and heard the same information, so I guess, it's basically correct (never mind the details).

I don't think this fatwah is as significant as it looks:

"A fatwa (Arabic: فتوى) plural fatāwa (Arabic: فتاوى) , is a legal pronouncement in Islam, issued by a religious law specialist on a specific issue. Usually a fatwa is issued at the request of an individual or a judge to settle a question where ’’fiqh,’’ Islamic jurisprudence, is unclear. A scholar capable of issuing fatwas is known as a Mufti.

Contrary to what is believed by non-Muslims, and even by the majority of Muslims, a fatwa is not binding on all persons professing the Muslim faith. The only ones who are obliged to obey any specific fatwa are the mufti who issued it and his followers.

Because Islam has no centralized priestly hierarchy, there is no uniform method to determine who can issue a valid fatwa and who cannot. Some Islamic scholars complain that too many people feel qualified to issue fatwas." - Wikipedia

EDIT: The smilies are some kind of embedded character, nothing I added. Sorry.

Hm,

now I think I want to show off, and add a minor detail:

I think that in Iran, the mullahs have currently set up a system where there is more force to a fatwa, as the Persian version of Islam is currently quite hierachical. So, when the Ayatholla issues a fatwa there, it is pretty binding to those Sunni who (have to) accept the current version of Islam in Persia.

For this reason, some Muslims outside Iran refer to the mullah regime there as having "catholicised" Islam, with the Ayatholla being something of a pope for Sunnis.

BUT, that's an entire different discussion, and I think it will go way OT very fast.

So, basically, I'd think the fatwa issue is solved (and thanks for mentioning the proper plural).

I think it definitely is the right sign to give by moderate Muslims, even though I take that as a sign to the Western/Christian world rather than an effective way to figt terror and extremism.
As was said before , the Muslim world is anything but homogenous, but easily as varied and divided as the Christian world. There are different nations, ideas of governement, cultures and of course different interpretations of the faith. Compare it to the Christian world : Do you think a Greek Orthodax would feel bound to a statement made by the pope?

However, this fatwa might finally stop people calling for action from the "Muslim community"...

The terrorist here is bu$h

George W. Bu$h = :mp5:

Despite the verbiage of the various so-called Islamic terrorist organisations, terrorism (mass murder of civilians) and Islam are not at all compatible. The Qu'ran expressly forbids the sacrifice of innocent people. But so does the Christian bible (5th commandment) which seems to have the same effect in the Christian world that the Qu'ran has in the Islamic world.
As for turning suspected people in, I believe the Islamic communities in the USA could help in that regard, but I would be very very careful because the present régime is not especially noted for guaranteeing, even to American moslems, the kinds of legal safe-guards necessary for an unbiased judgment. And how often are complaints about the state of the union or the unfairness of the Bush régime interpreted as anti-American - or even seditious?

So this "Fatwa" from the American Muslims isn't a law/ruling but more like a statement of posistion. A "we do not support the actions of these Terrorists" type statement where anyone who 'breaks' them is not... well, using the Catholic term, Excommunicated.

and Adlersburg-Niddaigle, I've seen some threads where its argued that such actions are approved by the Quoran under certain circumstances.

(btw... not wanting to start a debate on anti/Pro islam... just looking for information.)

The terrorist here is bu$h

George W. Bu$h = :mp5:
This isn't a bush-battering topic.

A point I took from the Wikipedia article is that a fatwah is not binding on all Moslems. It is only binding on the man who issued it and his followers, and since conflicting fatwahs can be issued it seems logical that Moslems can choose which fatwah to follow.

A Moslem posting on NS once wrote that anyone can issue a fatwah, even himself. They don't necessarily carry a lot of weight.

Unfortunately, I am not a an Islamic scholar, but this matter has been much-written about and is simple enough, I think, for us non-Moslems to understand.

Thats an excellent move, but why wasn't it done 4 years ago, or even earlier?

It has been done. It was done hundreds of years ago by Abu Bakr, and again within the last century many times, and probably hundreds of times in the last 10 years.

You said it yourself, the news doesn't pay attention. The news requires itself to be sensationalistic and fear mongering. The news will show "Muslims blow up the Earth!!!" but will almost invariably never show "Muslims plant trees in city park."

So ... shrug.

So this "Fatwa" from the American Muslims isn't a law/ruling but more like a statement of posistion. A "we do not support the actions of these Terrorists" type statement where anyone who 'breaks' them is not... well, using the Catholic term, Excommunicated.


Well, it is a law for those who follow the scholars who declared it. It may be a "piece of advise" for others, while extremists most likely will ignore it altogether.
Imagine the pope declaring a new dogma - it wouldn't be law for all Christians, either.

Well, it is a law for those who follow the scholars who declared it. It may be a "piece of advise" for others, while extremists most likely will ignore it altogether.
Imagine the pope declaring a new dogma - it wouldn't be law for all Christians, either.

My question, then, is how much value does this fatwah have in reducing terrorism? A piece of advice has less value than than the action some people have been calling for. It seems like a good start, though...

It seems like a good start, though...
It started ages ago. Most Muslims never took it a step further.

http://www.gjsentinel.com/classifieds/content/shared/news/nation/stories/07/29MUSLIM_FATWA.html

This is very good news, and I hope more Muslims around the world will speak out loudly and often against the radical Moslem terrorists.
Spanish Muslims did this a year ago, issuing a fatwa against Osama bin Laden.

It's a start, but words aren't going to stop terrorists. I'll be more optimistic when the Muslim community starts turning in the terrorists. Words by themselves mean nothing.
I hope this happens too, but it's a hollow hope. Most radicals are outside the mainstream Muslim community, so most Muslims have no idea who the terrorists are. In most cases, the only people who know who the terrorists are, are the other terrorists.

My question, then, is how much value does this fatwah have in reducing terrorism? A piece of advice has less value than than the action some people have been calling for. It seems like a good start, though...

I think its major value is the press picked up on it and is helping spread the word that not all Muslims support what the terrorists are doing. It may also encourage some American Muslims to turn in terrorists. I think it will also help prevent any backlash against the Muslim community in America.

My question, then, is how much value does this fatwah have in reducing terrorism? A piece of advice has less value than than the action some people have been calling for. It seems like a good start, though...

None, I guess. Those who opposed terrorism before will be confirmed in their already existing beliefs and go on opposing terrorism. But to those who support and agree with terrorism, this fatwah will be meaningless to say the least. Chances are, if this fatwah might even put some of those who issued it on the list of the extremist groups.

To me, the relevance is not so much in the effect this will have on the potential terrorists (although I hope it will at least create some doubts in some people's minds) but the effect it might have on the image of Islam and the Muslim population in general in the Western world.
There have been a number of people on this forum that requested a statement like that from "the Muslim community", something showing that they themselves didn't condon violence and terror. Those people disregarded the fact that there is no such thing as one single homogenous Muslim community any more than there is one single homogenous Christian community.

So, hopefully this statement will succeed in putting ideas about Muslims into context again...

Spanish Muslims did this a year ago, issuing a fatwa against Osama bin Laden.


I hope this happens too, but it's a hollow hope. Most radicals are outside the mainstream Muslim community, so most Muslims have no idea who the terrorists are. In most cases, the only people who know who the terrorists are, are the other terrorists.

Terrorists have been proven to use mosques as places to use hate speech and for recruitment. My common sense tells me that terrorists, particularly in foreign lands, need support from local Moslem communities. This is just one mosque in London:

"The Supporters of Shariah (SOS) was founded by the Egyptian Abu Hamza al-Masri (formerly Mustafa Kemal). Until the Charity Commission demanded his exclusion from the North London Central Mosque in Finsbury Park, Abu Hamza used the mosque as his UK base. From 1996 AM and SOS held joint meetings there, as well as demonstrations on the streets of London. Police raids on the mosque in January 2003 proved that the mosque was being used as a storage facility for materiel used to support a growing terrorist infrastructure.

It was also at the mosque that al-Qaeda recruiters, probably Djamel Beghal, found Zacarias Moussaoui, the so-called ‘twentieth hijacker’, and Richard Reid, the ‘shoebomber’."

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:-tK_rAJcJO4J:www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm%3Farticleid%3D484+Al+Muhajiroun&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

http://www.gjsentinel.com/classifieds/content/shared/news/nation/stories/07/29MUSLIM_FATWA.html

This is very good news, and I hope more Muslims around the world will speak out loudly and often against the radical Moslem terrorists.
In addition to the British and American fatwas, the Saudi Muslim community announced several fatwas against terrorism:
http://www.fatwa-online.com/

None, I guess. Those who opposed terrorism before will be confirmed in their already existing beliefs and go on opposing terrorism. But to those who support and agree with terrorism, this fatwah will be meaningless to say the least. Chances are, if this fatwah might even put some of those who issued it on the list of the extremist groups.

To me, the relevance is not so much in the effect this will have on the potential terrorists (although I hope it will at least create some doubts in some people's minds) but the effect it might have on the image of Islam and the Muslim population in general in the Western world.
There have been a number of people on this forum that requested a statement like that from "the Muslim community", something showing that they themselves didn't condon violence and terror. Those people disregarded the fact that there is no such thing as one single homogenous Muslim community any more than there is one single homogenous Christian community.

So, hopefully this statement will succeed in putting ideas about Muslims into context again...

I am one of those you mention, one who thinks that there is a high probability of a backlash against Moslems if bombings continue - particularly in Europe. I hope I'm mistaken, but I'm concerned that the perception of the citizenry will be that Moslems are condoning terrorism. A common belief is that their deeds and words will indicate whether or not they condone terrorism. Absent those, the perception will be that many Moslems, or their organizations, condone terrorism.

Precisely, there is no homogenous Moslem community. I suspect that many are actually aware of that, and that is why it is critically important that many fatwahs and other statements be issued by leaders of the many, if not all, branches of that community. And that Mosques be closed to recruitment and to those who preach hate. Moslems cooperating with law enforcement is a splendid sign of commitment to peace - perhaps that's already occurring.

My impression is that the recently-issued American fatwah is a good start, but why do not more Moslem organizations endorse it? Why don't all Moslem organizations endorse it, or write their own? Wouldn't that help dispel the (mis-) perception that some Moslems and mosques support murder of civilians by terrorists?

It's a start, but words aren't going to stop terrorists. I'll be more optimistic when the Muslim community starts turning in the terrorists. Words by themselves mean nothing.


I agree 100%. Saying something is one thing. It is another when they start to act on it.

Terrorists have been proven to use mosques as places to use hate speech and for recruitment. My common sense tells me that terrorists, particularly in foreign lands, need support from local Moslem communities. This is just one mosque in London:

"The Supporters of Shariah (SOS) was founded by the Egyptian Abu Hamza al-Masri (formerly Mustafa Kemal). Until the Charity Commission demanded his exclusion from the North London Central Mosque in Finsbury Park, Abu Hamza used the mosque as his UK base. From 1996 AM and SOS held joint meetings there, as well as demonstrations on the streets of London. Police raids on the mosque in January 2003 proved that the mosque was being used as a storage facility for materiel used to support a growing terrorist infrastructure.

It was also at the mosque that al-Qaeda recruiters, probably Djamel Beghal, found Zacarias Moussaoui, the so-called ‘twentieth hijacker’, and Richard Reid, the ‘shoebomber’."

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:-tK_rAJcJO4J:www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm%3Farticleid%3D484+Al+Muhajiroun&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
Wow, I didn't know that. I thought that the only group in the UK like this was al-Mujahiroun, who have 600 members and no access to any mosque.

Still, I think that most Muslims have no knowledge of terrorists and it's especially a no brainer that most of them are against terrorism.

Still, I think that most Muslims have no knowledge of terrorists and it's especially a no brainer that most of them are against terrorism.

Bingo!! We have a winner, ladies and gentlemen! :)

bump

Sorry for the temp hijack... but Celtlund, for a minute there I thought you posted
"Bump the old fart" :D

end hijack.

Sorry for the temp hijack... but Celtlund, for a minute there I thought you posted
"Bump the old fart" :D

end hijack.

ROFLMAO :)