NationStates Jolt Archive

Can we question are existence to the extent where we start believing this is not a real world, somehow we're blinded and cannot see beyond the barriers of space and time. Could This be a world where secrets run our society to keep us from knowing the truth, so we can't run anarchy. Could This be a world where reality is not what we believe it is,it's something greater than we define. Then I question Who Am I?

Can we question are existence to the extent where we start believing this is not a real world, somehow we're blinded and cannot see beyond the barriers of space and time. Could This be a world where secrets run our society to keep us from knowing the truth, so we can't run anarchy.

No.


Could This be a world where reality is not what we believe it is,it's something greater than we define. Then I question Who Am I?

Yes. Now please feel free to keep up, this question is thousands of years old, and so is the answer… :)

Can we question our existence to the extent where we start believing this is not a real world, somehow we're blinded and cannot see beyond the barriers of space and time? Could this be a world where secrets run our society to keep us from knowing the truth, so we can't run anarchy? Could this be a world where reality is not what we believe it is, it's something greater than we define? Then I ponder the question who am I?
(Sorry, the grammar, punctuation, and capitalization errors were bugging me.)

Yes, many people are out of touch with this so-called "reality". What is reality, really? Yes, everyone is conspiring against me. Or am I too insignificant to be conspired against? No, "reality" is an invention of humans. You are whoever you decide to be.

Just to put your mind at ease, it's been mathematically shown that, if it is possible to create a computational simulation of a universe, we are more likely to be living in a simulation of a universe than we are living in a real universe. :)

Can we question are existence to the extent where we start believing this is not a real world, somehow we're blinded and cannot see beyond the barriers of space and time. Could This be a world where secrets run our society to keep us from knowing the truth, so we can't run anarchy. Could This be a world where reality is not what we believe it is,it's something greater than we define. Then I question Who Am I?

It is possible. However, it will not do anything to solve your hunger or lack of sleep, nor will it reduce the amount of carbon dioxide emitted from factories that contribute to Global Warming.

In other words, while you are allowed to think and think and think and come up with theories, it is simply and utterly a useless set of questions. Think about them when you're bored and free. Don't do it for a living.

Reality is one thing:

Perception.

Perceive something, and it becomes real.

To exist..is to live.
To live..is but to exist.

If something cannot be percieved...can it truly exist?
Is conception the same as percpetion?

Those are what you should be asking.

There's a well-known theory. It's something like matter is linked through time, so reality could be changing constantly around us and we wouldn't even notice. So tommorow we could wake up entirely different, but we'd have a whole lifetime of memories in that reality.

Cogito Ergo Sum.

All I need to know.

We can not prove anything. I could be a figment of your own imagination and never know it. You could be a figment of my imagination. Even the idea that I think does not mean that I am.

Existence may or may not exist. It depends on what you want to think. If we assume that we do not exist then the question is what are we so that we are not real? This could be a computer program or dream or even reality, it is impossible to tell what this is.

I could be a figment of your own imagination and never know it.
But if you can have an imagination, and imagine stuff, doesn't that mean you exist on some level?

Is this the real life
Is this just fantasy
Born in a landslide
No escape from reality

I belive that Descarte solved this one for us; Cogito ergo sum. I think, therefore I am. We think the universe exists, therefore it must exist, for if it did not, how could we know for we would not... It's about this time that normal language gives up and goes to the pub.

But if you can have an imagination, and imagine stuff, doesn't that mean you exist on some level?
Thought does not necessarily mean existence(unless you think that thought is existence). Who knows what a figment of an advanced imagination thinks? We all could be figments and not know it. I mean, what if God is this genius with a good imagination(maybe he is even asleep and we are his dream). To think just means that you believe that you have thoughts, it does not mean that those thoughts are necessarily yours just that ideas from some source go screaming through your thinking areas(physical or not) and some are even rejected by you(or someone outside of you deciding your actions for you). I can not prove that I exist or even that I am the one who is thinking these thoughts that I am typing. It is sort of funny isn't it(or maybe stupid) :)

This kind of question tests our limits of understanding reality. While it is possible for something that is outside of our perception to exist, we are limited by the fact that our view of reality is limited to our perception. Any attempt to explain reality can only, then, be done in terms of reality itself, the limit of what we can perceive.

-snip-
But even if my thoughts weren't really mine, then you are still implying that there is a "me" that either exists or is only imagined that can be thought for.
So whether you are real or not, you still exist somewhere somehow.

Now now, the answer is not as easy as it seems. I've had many, MANY experiences where I questioned "is this the real world?" I questioned my very existence, the existence of those around me, and the universe itself.

Am I just a figment? Is this just a dream? Does the real world lie somewhere else? I've asked myself this question many times...and each time I become increasingly more disturbed at the mere thought.

Now, whenever that question pops into my head, I banish it from my thoughts immediately. I don't like thinking about it, it scares me.

But even if my thoughts weren't really mine, then you are still implying that there is a "me" that either exists or is only imagined that can be thought for.
So whether you are real or not, you still exist somewhere somehow.
Concepts can exist. You could be a concept. Concepts are not physically real. The concept of Leonstein is possible(due to the infinite concepts that can exist) but existence as a concept is not usually seen as existence in the sense that most people care about. The concept of a perfect society exists but no perfect society does actually exist(in our thoughts which may not be ours and all that crap). If you want to view the existence of a concept or imagined being as existence then meet my best friend Mr. Dipperson, he is a floating, pink donkey. He could exist just like we exist, he could also not exist. His existence can not be determined, but from most viewpoints he does not exist because he is imagined.

Now, whenever that question pops into my head, I banish it from my thoughts immediately. I don't like thinking about it, it scares me.
Eh, these questions can bring thoughts that border solipsism and nihilism. Those 2 concepts are not things we want to be thinking about. They can be pretty disturbing, especially the nihilism idea.

Eh, these questions can bring thoughts that border solipsism and nihilism. Those 2 concepts are not things we want to be thinking about. They can be pretty disturbing, especially the nihilism idea.

The concept itself is innane, and makes little sense. We are obviously here after all. Problem is, the concept is just disturbing enough for it to stick with you for a while.

When that happens its best to stand up, and kick your own ass, to remind yourself that you're real.

Solipsism is more disturbing than Nihilism imho, since it is Solipsism that makes the 'subjective existance versus objective reality' paradox possible, at least from my vantage point it does!

I can live with a lack of objective 'meaning' or 'morality' quite fine, but the lack of proof for quantified independant intelligences other than my own is... unsettling. It makes the idea of my reality being a stupendously complex simulation just that tiny bit more possible.

The concept itself is innane, and makes little sense. We are obviously here after all. Problem is, the concept is just disturbing enough for it to stick with you for a while.

When that happens its best to stand up, and kick your own ass, to remind yourself that you're real.

Sure YOU are real to YOURSELF, but how can you prove than anything else is real when it is emminently possible to 'fake' external stimulus even with 'current' technology.

Assuming technology or powers far in advance of our own apparent capabilities, it is easily possible that we are simply artificial brains floating in jars, being prodded, poked and tested by uncaring 'creator' scientists (or Gods as we might term them).

Makes you feel naked doesn't it.

reality is how you make it

reality is what everyone sees and feels, yes they can be fooled by things that aren't real, but if you beleive in something real, it comes true

reality is perceived by a great mass of people, if they say the sky is green, and there is more of them than you, than they are right

read george orwell's 1984, and the subject becomes clearer

Reality is an illusion created by lack of alcohol.

Listen, you have derealiziton, its a mental disease where you believe that this life isnt real, etc. etc. Go ask your doctor about it, get some medicine, and take it. I myself have it, when i dont take my medicine, i go into something like what your in now.

Basically one some level everything is ultimately unprovable and unknowable. It's best not to think about it though because it will put you on an endless loop and there's really no way it can do you any good.

Can we question are existence to the extent where we start believing this is not a real world, somehow we're blinded and cannot see beyond the barriers of space and time. Could This be a world where secrets run our society to keep us from knowing the truth, so we can't run anarchy. Could This be a world where reality is not what we believe it is,it's something greater than we define. Then I question Who Am I?
No.

is this the Matrix?! um noone can tell ,.. out-of-body-experience is proven and done by every major spy organisation in the world so i belive that there is something out there-.

Sure YOU are real to YOURSELF, but how can you prove than anything else is real when it is emminently possible to 'fake' external stimulus even with 'current' technology.

Assuming technology or powers far in advance of our own apparent capabilities, it is easily possible that we are simply artificial brains floating in jars, being prodded, poked and tested by uncaring 'creator' scientists (or Gods as we might term them).

Makes you feel naked doesn't it.

As some of my fellow posters have already stated; "cogito ergo sum"...I think, therefore I am.

Whether or not I am someone's science project is irrelevant, for I at least exist in my own mind.

So the idea that you exist means that it is true. Ultimately you either ignore the possibility or ignore the ideas that challenge conventional thought. I do not know if the thoughts that I am thinking are my thoughts, I could be mind-controlled by a magic rat, there is no way to prove I am not being mind-controlled. Consciousness could be deception, thinking could be a lie, and existence could be an idea that bears little to know truth.

I think, therefore I am.
I think that I think but I can not prove that I think. Most things can not be proven about our world. Solipsism can not be disproven, those around you could be figments or something and there would be no way to tell. Nihilism can not be disproven, we have never seen any divine meaning so therefore a higher truth might not even exist. The simple trick is not to think about these odd ideas, they do not confer any advantages despite any possible truth that may be behind them.

If you are to assume that life is real, and it turns out to be fake, what will you have lost? Not much. If however you assume life is fake and it turns out to be real, what then have you lost. Something unimaginable.

If you are to assume that life is real, and it turns out to be fake, what will you have lost? Not much. If however you assume life is fake and it turns out to be real, what then have you lost. Something unimaginable.
That is true. That is why I do not practice solipsism or nihilism as my philosophies. Ultimately that is the reason behind my religion. If I deny God then I deny the existence of the spiritual(one god makes more sense to me than any other religious/spiritual realities). Without the spiritual, all that is left is the material. The material is stupid and pointless, people without souls are just advanced rocks. So therefore, I worship one god(which may be altered to fit my current religious surroundings including possible future mates) and reject atheism as rejecting the spiritual and agnosticism which does not make sense in my mind because the world seems too perfect to be designed by differing deities. I do tend towards Judeo-Christian religions due to my background, especially christianity due to the religious nature of like minded females in my region.

I wonder the same questions man. But still, what if this is just a computer generated world like the sims, thats run by aliens and either they are

A. Studying the development of civilizations throughout a fake universe
B. They are using us as entertainment

0_o :confused:

Existance has a property that 1=1. Now then, it's a little off topic but in order for 1=1 in the real world, there has to be some outside source since everything has a begining and has to have come from somewhere, ie a supernatural being creating the world.

However, closer to the subject is the fact there is technically only one thing that I or you the reader can prove and even then it's to oneself: I EXIST. Seeing as that this is the only thing that we can be certain of that is not a deception because I know that I think. I can't prove that to you but neither can you prove to me that you think.

Hence, to question existance can only go so far before you can only prove oneself's existance to oneself.

P.S. A supernatural being can be void of a begining seeing as that it is above the natural laws that restrain matter, hence the words "supernatural being".

Cogito Ergo Sum.

All I need to know.

Nah: this fails because it presupposes that 'thinking' requires an agent. There is the possibility that thought can exist without there being one that thinks it. In the end all Descartes is really justified in saying is "there is thinking"*.



* Cogitans est? - my Latin is getting a bit rusty these days.

"Ignorance is bliss."

There's something to be said about Darwinism here...

a.) Those who regularly ponder their own existence are inherently depressed because the answers are often blunt and unsatisfying, i.e. we are here with no help from any God (existentialism)
b.) Depressed people are more likely to commit suicide.
and therefore
c.) Those who ponder their own reality are being selectively removed from the population.

It's good for your health to be stupid.

...meet my best friend Mr. Dipperson, he is a floating, pink donkey...
And yet he exists on some level - otherwise we couldn't be talking about him.
I might be misinterpreting here, but when Descartes said "Cogito Ergo Sum" that was what he was talkign about.
He is thinking, he has rational thought, so he exists. On what level, and how, may not be certain, but he does exist. And that is all that matters.

But it might be best to define "existence" somewhere. Does existence require physical molecules being present?

Nah: this fails because it presupposes that 'thinking' requires an agent.
But then again...what if all we are is thought? In that case, we still "are", although there is no actual agent other than the imagined one.

And yet he exists on some level - otherwise we couldn't be talking about him.
I might be misinterpreting here, but when Descartes said "Cogito Ergo Sum" that was what he was talkign about.
He is thinking, he has rational thought, so he exists. On what level, and how, may not be certain, but he does exist. And that is all that matters.

But it might be best to define "existence" somewhere. Does existence require physical molecules being present?
Yeah, we may need to define existence because what you just claimed was that everything that could ever be thought of exists. Most people do not care about the existence of a concept. Which is why the occasional thread about God not existing is not referring to the concept of God which by nature has to exist to even debate the non-existence of God. I suppose concepts have to exist, I am not sure that they do. To say that a person exists because the concept of them exists seems sort of stupid and irrational, Mr. Dipperson does not exist in the commonly held idea of existence which is physically existing.

Whether anyone physically exists depends on our ideas of physical existence. Is physical existence bound to our world or held to the most true of worlds? (in layman's terms) Does the Matrix physically exist or is it the world outside of the Matrix that physically exists? If the true world is that of divine spirits and we are comprised of both soul and flesh then only the soul "physically" exists and the body does not physically exist and is an illusion. If we hold our existence to the existence of our souls and our souls do not exist then according the world of spirits(which may or may not exist) we do not exist. I suppose it all depends on where you view existence as coming from. If you view the soul as what makes us exist then the spiritual world is the world that exists and the physical is an abstraction, if the body is what makes us exist then the spiritual is an abstraction, if the mind makes us physically exist then the physical and spiritual worlds are abstractions. Abstractions can be viewed as illusions that do not "really" exist or as alternative truths. All 3 forms of existence can be argued against. The body could be seen as a lie if the physical world is viewed to be an illusion, the mind could be seen as a hoax if our minds are not our own(we are mind-controlled/figments or have no thinking power through our own nature), the spirit could be seen as non-existent if the spiritual is believed to be a fairy tale.

A nihilist will believe that no world exists on a level that is important and a solipsist would believe that they are all 3 worlds and the only real thing in all 3 worlds.

I suppose it depends on what you view as important for existence, ooh visit this.
http://www.philosophersnet.com/games/identity.htm

It has an interesting perspective on existence.

I suppose it depends on what you view as important for existence, ooh visit this.
http://www.philosophersnet.com/games/identity.htm
Goddammit! I died because I didn't want to be frozen...

Goddammit! I died because I didn't want to be frozen...
Yeah, I think that when I first played it I lived but with question. My soul survived. But the question came because I threw away my physical body in the part where you get the disease and it asks you if you want your brain to be replaced, so they assumed the soul followed me but they weren't sure it followed by false brain.

That website is most certainly interesting(or at least the games are) and it has some things like Battlefield God where you test your religious beliefs and some thing where you test your morality. I like that site.

Ohh, I got a TPM Medal of Distinction on the battlefield! Yay!

I've had 0, 0 and -1 in the morality test....

That is true. That is why I do not practice solipsism or nihilism as my philosophies. Ultimately that is the reason behind my religion. If I deny God then I deny the existence of the spiritual(one god makes more sense to me than any other religious/spiritual realities). Without the spiritual, all that is left is the material. The material is stupid and pointless, people without souls are just advanced rocks. So therefore, I worship one god(which may be altered to fit my current religious surroundings including possible future mates) and reject atheism as rejecting the spiritual and agnosticism which does not make sense in my mind because the world seems too perfect to be designed by differing deities. I do tend towards Judeo-Christian religions due to my background, especially christianity due to the religious nature of like minded females in my region.

*SLAP*

Atheism does not equal Nihilism!

And Solipsism as a concept still exists whether you believe in God, Tarot, the healing power of Magnets or the great sun deity Ra. BELIEVING in God does not justify your existance... your DEEDS justify yourself.

It is truly impossible to detirmine whether any specific God exists even if you believe *a* God exists, you seem to understand this, and even admit that your religious beliefs are solely due to your social background, yet you still believe in a codified deity anyway.

Gah, that really grinds my gears, when someone *knows* they are wrong yet still *believes* they are right!

It seems to me that you only do so out of fear :(


Oh yeah, Nihilism... well we may not be able to prove the existance of the external (Solipsism), but it is blatantly obvious to the individual that they exist (Free will is another matter but irrelevant to this discussion), therefore Nihilism (Although an educational concept to explore) is ultimately a false credo.

Eeep, I just justified Solipsistic Narcasism! :( :( :(

If I tapped a bit longer I'm sure I could codify existance to a satisfactorially moralistic standard and so justify existance, but erm, so can any well-educated four year old who knows stealing is wrong.

Bleh, I'm crap at this.

Go poke some other brain in a jar.

But it might be best to define "existence" somewhere. Does existence require physical molecules being present?

No, because some things exist as mental constructs (like a floating pink donkey in the mind), or as external 'concepts' (like language or the idea of nihilism), and some things can exist as multiple iterations of the same object in many places at once without us ever needing to observe the constituant molecules on a data track somewhere, like these words on the screen...

[QUOTE=Holyawesomeness]

I think, therefore I am.
I think that I think but I can not prove that I think. QUOTE]


LOL. If you think that your thinking than you ARE thinking.

I wonder the same questions man. But still, what if this is just a computer generated world like the sims, thats run by aliens and either they are

A. Studying the development of civilizations throughout a fake universe
B. They are using us as entertainment

0_o :confused:
Yes, our universe was created for the Whatevers' entertainment. We're the original reality show.

Does the Matrix physically exist or is it the world outside of the Matrix that physically exists?

The world outside of the Matrix 'Our world' works by having atoms causing electronic repulsion against each other that thus causes physical objects to become possible at a 'macro atomic' level.

The world inside the Matrix works by having tightly controlled conduits and gateways along which atomic bodies can pass, which when viewed in summation form a coherent pattern that can be understood by the macro atomic constructs of a human nervous system.

Thus the world of the Matrix does phsyically exist, in the same manner that the 'mind' physically exists, as atomic/electric information that is percieved by the macro atomic structure we call 'the brain and the central nervous system'.

Its phyiscal existance is not in doubt, and the fact that it requires a human or AI 'mind' to percieve it does not negate its undoubted existance.

This of course raises other questions, like:

If a 'micro universe' like the Matrix is an undoubted technical possibility, surely a 'macro universe' is also possible, just as far beyond our ability to percieve without an interface as it would be to percieve the Matrix by looking at an unplugged data cable.

It is indeed possible that we simply cannot concieve of the methods needed to interface our Universe with a Macro Universe, because just as with the Matrix the interface requires action from the Universe 'outside' or 'above' the Matrix to 'unplug'.

Can we make the likely assumption that a Macro Universe would run on broadly similar lines to our own, that is to say that the Macro Universe would be composed of atomic particles and would have certain physics-based rules like electric forces and atomic attraction (gravity). Thus an interface between our Universe and a Macro Universe would likely be similar in concept to that seen in the Matrix.

OR

Is it possible that a Macro Universe could function according to rules which we simply could not comprehend, where thought becomes physical and word becomes eternal?

I just invented God! Yay me.

[QUOTE=Holyawesomeness]

I think, therefore I am.
I think that I think but I can not prove that I think. QUOTE]


LOL. If you think that your thinking than you ARE thinking.

That depends if by 'thinking' you presuppose free will?

*SLAP*

Atheism does not equal Nihilism!

And Solipsism as a concept still exists whether you believe in God, Tarot, the healing power of Magnets or the great sun deity Ra. BELIEVING in God does not justify your existance... your DEEDS justify yourself.

It is truly impossible to detirmine whether any specific God exists even if you believe *a* God exists, you seem to understand this, and even admit that your religious beliefs are solely due to your social background, yet you still believe in a codified deity anyway.

Gah, that really grinds my gears, when someone *knows* they are wrong yet still *believes* they are right!

It seems to me that you only do so out of fear :(

Oh yeah, Nihilism... well we may not be able to prove the existance of the external (Solipsism), but it is blatantly obvious to the individual that they exist (Free will is another matter but irrelevant to this discussion), therefore Nihilism (Although an educational concept to explore) is ultimately a false credo.

Eeep, I just justified Solipsistic Narcasism! :( :( :(

If I tapped a bit longer I'm sure I could codify existance to a satisfactorially moralistic standard and so justify existance, but erm, so can any well-educated four year old who knows stealing is wrong.

Bleh, I'm crap at this.

Go poke some other brain in a jar.
Solipsism is the belief that only the self exists, it can not exist with the idea of any outside power due to the idea of the outside power. Besides, deeds do not really justify anything, I can kill 1million people or bring about world peace but without a spiritual world(that defines morality and the nature of existence) it is no different than if a rock fell due to gravity.

I believe in a deity, I never said that I was a christian because I have never read the bible and have not gone to church in many years. I believe in one God because he is an initial cause, one God is within many different religious philosophies(Hinduism has the belief that the many gods are all part of the same one god). I also think that one God makes sense because the universe is orderly without spontaneity.

Honestly, I have read atheist philosophies and tried to understand them but they do not seem to make sense. The idea of a completely material world does not appeal to me in any fashion(I would see life and death as no different if such a thing were true) and much of atheism is based on the belief that religion is superstition. A moral system based on a completely material world has no appeal, death sets all things to zero and a concept that is made up to support an idea that has no inherent benefit makes no sense.(living is pointless unless we find out why we are here and all that other jazz which are things that can not be found unless there is a spiritual world outside of our world).

I know many things and believe that I pick the best choice that I know of. I choose God because without him there is no life(the material world is sort of pointless). Nihilism can not be disproven so easily, we can not prove that we exist outside the material world, the material world is pointless because there is nothing to be gained from the material world, death sets all things to zero in the material world and life does not provide much either.

Justifying existence could not be done to a satisfactory extent by a 4-year old, I have examined philosophical concepts and the like and the best conclusion that I can find relies on a God. I have looked at humanism and all of that garbage trying to understand my spiritual nature and the only thing that I can see to justify life is God.

Let us just wrap this up. You will not understand my philosophy because it claims that the spiritual world provides all truth, purpose and reason for human existence. I will not understand your philosophy because it places more importance on the material world which is something that I can not understand because the material world seems a useless shell without the spiritual(like a body without a mind).

The world outside of the Matrix 'Our world' works by having atoms causing electronic repulsion against each other that thus causes physical objects to become possible at a 'macro atomic' level.

The world inside the Matrix works by having tightly controlled conduits and gateways along which atomic bodies can pass, which when viewed in summation form a coherent pattern that can be understood by the macro atomic constructs of a human nervous system.

Thus the world of the Matrix does phsyically exist, in the same manner that the 'mind' physically exists, as atomic/electric information that is percieved by the macro atomic structure we call 'the brain and the central nervous system'.

Its phyiscal existance is not in doubt, and the fact that it requires a human or AI 'mind' to percieve it does not negate its undoubted existance.

This of course raises other questions, like:

If a 'micro universe' like the Matrix is an undoubted technical possibility, surely a 'macro universe' is also possible, just as far beyond our ability to percieve without an interface as it would be to percieve the Matrix by looking at an unplugged data cable.

It is indeed possible that we simply cannot concieve of the methods needed to interface our Universe with a Macro Universe, because just as with the Matrix the interface requires action from the Universe 'outside' or 'above' the Matrix to 'unplug'.

Can we make the likely assumption that a Macro Universe would run on broadly similar lines to our own, that is to say that the Macro Universe would be composed of atomic particles and would have certain physics-based rules like electric forces and atomic attraction (gravity). Thus an interface between our Universe and a Macro Universe would likely be similar in concept to that seen in the Matrix.

OR

Is it possible that a Macro Universe could function according to rules which we simply could not comprehend, where thought becomes physical and word becomes eternal?

I just invented God! Yay me.
Well, of course the Matrix exists in a sense. There is no argument that the Matrix exists in its own way but the fact that it is considered an illusion makes us wonder about its existence. Illusions are not considered to exist to some extent(if you see food that is not really there it is not considered by most people to exist). The world of the matrix is in some ways not in doubt like you said it is only the perception of the illusions and if this world is an illusion is the question.

The 2nd possibility does sound like you invented God/heaven. I tend to think that this world is not satisfactory by itself, we live until we die and when we die we cease to think, but if free-will does not exist then we might not actually be thinking at all, only reacting to our environment in an extremely complex fashion, which does not provide a big distinction between life and death(we are living when we maintain biological functions but are dead when they disappear) ultimately this lacking distinction between life and death erodes my idea of the difference unless there is a soul that continues to exist and continues traveling and that will eventually discover higher meaning. Biology being the sum of life is unsettling and living just to bring offspring into a world that will eventually die is not satisfying, nor is earthly pleasure.

Solipsism is the belief that only the self exists, it can not exist with the idea of any outside power due to the idea of the outside power. Besides, deeds do not really justify anything, I can kill 1million people or bring about world peace but without a spiritual world(that defines morality and the nature of existence) it is no different than if a rock fell due to gravity.

That's why I think Solipsism is a dangerous concept to become enamoured with... we agree already!


I believe in a deity, I never said that I was a christian because I have never read the bible and have not gone to church in many years. I believe in one God because he is an initial cause, one God is within many different religious philosophies(Hinduism has the belief that the many gods are all part of the same one god). I also think that one God makes sense because the universe is orderly without spontaneity.


I also believe in a creator, but I do not have the hubris to worship it or attempt to codify its existance.


Honestly, I have read atheist philosophies and tried to understand them but they do not seem to make sense. The idea of a completely material world does not appeal to me in any fashion(I would see life and death as no different if such a thing were true) and much of atheism is based on the belief that religion is superstition. A moral system based on a completely material world has no appeal, death sets all things to zero and a concept that is made up to support an idea that has no inherent benefit makes no sense.(living is pointless unless we find out why we are here and all that other jazz which are things that can not be found unless there is a spiritual world outside of our world).

Death only sets things to zero if you are a Solipsist.

Here's some crap lyrics I wrote:

If you want some meaning in life then look around, and the faces of your friends,
as long as there is breath you'll never end.


Just to hammer it in this part of the song is written as advice to someone lying in state... told you it was crap!


I know many things and believe that I pick the best choice that I know of. I choose God because without him there is no life(the material world is sort of pointless). Nihilism can not be disproven so easily, we can not prove that we exist outside the material world, the material world is pointless because there is nothing to be gained from the material world, death sets all things to zero in the material world and life does not provide much either.

Equating Nihilism with Solipsism again?


Justifying existence could not be done to a satisfactory extent by a 4-year old, I have examined philosophical concepts and the like and the best conclusion that I can find relies on a God. I have looked at humanism and all of that garbage trying to understand my spiritual nature and the only thing that I can see to justify life is God.

Why can't the love of a four year old child justify your worth in life?

Because you are a Solipsist who cannot believe in the love of a child enough to make life and love worth living for?


Let us just wrap this up. You will not understand my philosophy because it claims that the spiritual world provides all truth, purpose and reason for human existence. I will not understand your philosophy because it places more importance on the material world which is something that I can not understand because the material world seems a useless shell without the spiritual(like a body without a mind).

I already understand your philosophy, I'm trying to understand you.

Incidentally, surely your analogy is backwards? Is the mind not the metaphysical spiritual and the body the physical material?

First of all...Cogneat Ergo Sum!

Secondly...[ahem]

"A certain person said, "In the Saint's Mausoleum there is a poem that goes:
If in one's heart,
He follows the path of sincerity,
Though he does not pray,
Will not the gods protect him?
What is this path of sincerity?"
A man answered him by saying, "You seem to like poetry. I will answer you with a poem:
As everything in the world is but a sham,
Death is the only sincerity.
It is said that becoming as a dead man in one's daily living is the following of the path of sincerity.""
-Hagakure, Yamamoto Tsunetomo

Well, of course the Matrix exists in a sense. There is no argument that the Matrix exists in its own way but the fact that it is considered an illusion makes us wonder about its existence. Illusions are not considered to exist to some extent(if you see food that is not really there it is not considered by most people to exist). The world of the matrix is in some ways not in doubt like you said it is only the perception of the illusions and if this world is an illusion is the question.

If I may take your example of food.

You may eat food in the Matrix (Micro Universe) and it does not sustain you, though to a Matrix inhabitant it would appear to do so, complete with excretement later etc.

You may eat food in our Universe and it appears to sustain you, complete with excretement later etc.

In the Macro Universe, God observes you eating in your subjective reality (The 'Real' world, at least according to your senses). God then injects a nutrient solution into your body, which is later excreted.

This chain of Universe or Reality relationships is quite possible, and impossible to detect.

Under the rules of our Universe, only from a 'higher' plane of existance can you see the seams in the stitchings of the 'lower' plane. Some Universes could have different rules, like being able to see all Universes or no Universes, for example.

We can see and comprehend the illusions in the Matrix (Micro) but we cannot see the flaws in the subjective, even if we can comprehend their potential existance... our world is just built that way, just like the Matrix.


The 2nd possibility does sound like you invented God/heaven. I tend to think that this world is not satisfactory by itself, we live until we die and when we die we cease to think, but if free-will does not exist then we might not actually be thinking at all, only reacting to our environment in an extremely complex fashion, which does not provide a big distinction between life and death(we are living when we maintain biological functions but are dead when they disappear) ultimately this lacking distinction between life and death erodes my idea of the difference unless there is a soul that continues to exist and continues traveling and that will eventually discover higher meaning. Biology being the sum of life is unsettling and living just to bring offspring into a world that will eventually die is not satisfying, nor is earthly pleasure.

I tend to think existing is worthwhile, on any plane of existance that conforms to the rules of ours.

If I have to live inside Neo's computer in a Micro-relationship to the Matrix Universe, so be it. As long as the rules of the Universe permit the illusion of free will and feelings of some sort, self satisfaction is possible, through hedonism or altrusim, you decide.

EDIT: Time for bed, I've got a party to go to tomorrow!

That's why I think Solipsism is a dangerous concept to become enamoured with... we agree already!

I also believe in a creator, but I do not have the hubris to worship it or attempt to codify its existance.

Death only sets things to zero if you are a Solipsist.

Here's some crap lyrics I wrote:

If you want some meaning in life then look around, and the faces of your friends,
as long as there is breath you'll never end.


Just to hammer it in this part of the song is written as advice to someone lying in state... told you it was crap!

Equating Nihilism with Solipsism again?

Why can't the love of a four year old child justify your worth in life?

Because you are a Solipsist who cannot believe in the love of a child enough to make life and love worth living for?

I already understand your philosophy, I'm trying to understand you.

Incidentally, surely your analogy is backwards? Is the mind not the metaphysical spiritual and the body the physical material?
My analogy is not backwords. You merely misunderstood or something, body was seen as material and mind was seen as spiritual in that instance, not that the idea represent the entirety of my beliefs.

Well, I do have the hubris to codeify it and worship it :p I do think that religion and organized religion are important but then again, I think that the best way to improve the world is to institute a totalitarian/authoritarian government that actually works well(rather than killing everyone off and attempting genocide) :)

You are right on the whole nihilist solipsist thing. They are easy to confuse due to their relation to one another. Nihilists believe that life already equals zero.

You also tend to think that I find spiritual truth in the companionship of my fellow human. They do not hold spiritual truth, they have worldly utility in their ability to provide service, humor, emotional satisfaction but all of those things are nothing unless there is a spiritual world that gives these ideas special meaning. I can understand using these fellow beings to help me become more spiritually pure and powerful and to even help them do the same but that does not mean that they are special in any way other than what they do to improve my spirit.

I have some solipsist qualities, I am strongly introverted with tendencies towards selfishness and narcissism but I have not claimed that I was the only mind in existence which is required for solipsism. Many of my posts have claimed a more nihilistic philosophy because a solipsist does not worry about death very much because they are the only being in existence and because of that special position might not even die at all!

I tend to think existing is worthwhile, on any plane of existance that conforms to the rules of ours.

If I have to live inside Neo's computer in a Micro-relationship to the Matrix Universe, so be it. As long as the rules of the Universe permit the illusion of free will and feelings of some sort, self satisfaction is possible, through hedonism or altrusim, you decide.

EDIT: Time for bed, I've got a party to go to tomorrow!
Existence by itself is not to be desired. Existing only on this material world seems pointless because life is only separated by death in false emotional terms and in real terms of physical function that can be described in a way as cold as a computer malfunction.

What makes life life is the fact that we live for a higher purpose and that there is more than just waking up, eating, and all of the mundane aspects of life.

Sleep well and do not be eaten by giant corn husks!

But then again...what if all we are is thought? In that case, we still "are", although there is no actual agent other than the imagined one.

It isn't so much a case that 'all we are is thought', rather the possibility that 'thinking' alone without an agent can exist. Descartes identifies the existence of a doubting process (ie. 'thinking') and then jumps the gun by assuming that there must exist a 'thinking thing' (res cogitans) and that he is that thing.

Just because all the other activities which Descartes appears to have experienced in the world have agents behind them, it does not necessarilly follow that thinking must also have an agent.

My analogy is not backwords. You merely misunderstood or something, body was seen as material and mind was seen as spiritual in that instance, not that the idea represent the entirety of my beliefs.

Very sorry, I'm quite tired, and really will go to bed soon I promise!


Well, I do have the hubris to codeify it and worship it :p I do think that religion and organized religion are important but then again, I think that the best way to improve the world is to institute a totalitarian/authoritarian government that actually works well(rather than killing everyone off and attempting genocide) :)


Meh, I think the best way to improve the world would be if everyone decided being nice to each other was a good idea... that way we don't even need that ocasionally oppressive totalitarian government, just some responsible community-minded citizens who run groups that distribute produce.


You are right on the whole nihilist solipsist thing. They are easy to confuse due to their relation to one another. Nihilists believe that life already equals zero.

Meh


You also tend to think that I find spiritual truth in the companionship of my fellow human. They do not hold spiritual truth, they have worldly utility in their ability to provide service, humor, emotional satisfaction but all of those things are nothing unless there is a spiritual world that gives these ideas special meaning. I can understand using these fellow beings to help me become more spiritually pure and powerful and to even help them do the same but that does not mean that they are special in any way other than what they do to improve my spirit.


I'd rather find love in people I can touch and love in return than find love in a God who very well might just find you dumb and funny. Shit, how can you codify a perfect God when it is eminently possible (And even probable?) that a Macro-Universe being would view you more as an intellectual exercise or theoretical sustannance than as an entity which it loves?


I have some solipsist qualities

Mmmm.

I am strongly introverted with tendencies towards selfishness and narcissism but I have not claimed that I was the only mind in existence which is required for solipsism. Many of my posts have claimed a more nihilistic philosophy because a solipsist does not worry about death very much because they are the only being in existence and because of that special position might not even die at all!

That's quite a downer of an attidude... and cleaving to a codified God as a consequence of it...

You seem to have a lot in common with me at certain points in my life. I have to say I look back on my attitudes I held then as invalid, but I am quite certain that in time I will think the same of the man I am now.

Knowlege may be power, but it is also life.

Existence by itself is not to be desired. Existing only on this material world seems pointless because life is only separated by death in false emotional terms and in real terms of physical function that can be described in a way as cold as a computer malfunction.

What makes life life is the fact that we live for a higher purpose and that there is more than just waking up, eating, and all of the mundane aspects of life.

Sleep well and do not be eaten by giant corn husks!

Can't that higher purpose simply be to make others like ourself (We may call them our EQUALS) happy? To benefit our Equals?

If we consider ourselves to be a valid intelligence, then surely we must accept that it is desirable to spread love and happiness to all that are on our plane of existance, and all that are on other planes of existance that we can observe (Any Micro Universes we can see for example, like Freeing pop people from the Matrix).

Let's take it to a Solipsist extreme... we know that I or YOU exist, and we know that the 'OUTSIDE' exists, potentially as a unified personification of one controlling intelligence... surely interacting with that external 'outside' in a manner that brings happiness as you solipsistically understand it is better than self deception which emphasizes internal spiritual development (or at most codified (and thus external) love) at the expense of spreading unconditional self-derived love.

Surely it is better to codify spiritual reality as far as is possible AND NO FURTHER rather than make leaps of unsubstantiated prognostication?

Shrug, I know I'm judging my invented 'Macro' God by my 'Real' standards, but how can one take any one codified God mythos as truth when it has been shown to us through the conduit of this imperfect 'Real' world?

The word of God is perfect? Not unless you find an original dictation it's not!

I've studied the differences in meaning between the aramaic original of the Bible and the various English translations used today... let me tell you, the English translations of the Bible are so full of mistakes and twisted meanings as to be very worrying.

God caused these imperfections to develop in accordance with his will so that his word is now perfect for us?

Then what about all those poor Billions who've lived and died under previously imperfect translations? I find this possibility even more worrying!

Bleh I'm jabbing now.

I promise I really will go to bed now... G'night whoever you are :)

Very sorry, I'm quite tired, and really will go to bed soon I promise!

Meh, I think the best way to improve the world would be if everyone decided being nice to each other was a good idea... that way we don't even need that ocasionally oppressive totalitarian government, just some responsible community-minded citizens who run groups that distribute produce.

Meh

I'd rather find love in people I can touch and love in return than find love in a God who very well might just find you dumb and funny. Shit, how can you codify a perfect God when it is eminently possible (And even probable?) that a Macro-Universe being would view you more as an intellectual exercise or theoretical sustannance than as an entity which it loves?

Mmmm.

That's quite a downer of an attidude... and cleaving to a codified God as a consequence of it...

You seem to have a lot in common with me at certain points in my life. I have to say I look back on my attitudes I held then as invalid, but I am quite certain that in time I will think the same of the man I am now.

Knowlege may be power, but it is also life.
In a perfect world I would think that everyone would have similar and relatively morally correct beliefs. If everyone had those beliefs then the unofficial government would be relatively totalitarian(everyone is trained to believe similarly which is a major goal of a totalitarian state). Really, a society that gets along perfectly and a society that is ruled by a totalitarian state are only different in the fact that the 1st is the ideal and the 2nd is more of the reality.

If God is such then why does it matter how I live to begin with? If I am only an invention of thought that is to be utterly destroyed at a whim then what is the difference between that existence and my problem with the material existence. Of course I have to assume some qualities about a higher being, otherwise I would not be so hopeful that he is kind. I do not seek love so much as I seek higher understanding of the nature of the universe and whatever that might provide me(divine knowledge seems like it would be better than love, which is not to say that I might not want some love in this life but rather that love is something of some importance but not a requirement)

I have no problem with my attitude, we see our own attitudes as being justified of course but ultimately I desperately cling to the only source of any truth in life. This life is filled mostly with fools, weaklings, and the rest of the pathetic masses(ok I may be toning up the darker aspects of my personality) but I have already stated where I see the source of all things in this world and it is not in this world.

By the way, get some sleep. Considering that you are tired you either live in a different time zone or have a low tolerance for a lack of sleep. I do not exactly trust you to keep your promise. Go to sleep before the Sandman kills you in a fierce rage for your defiance of the mystical sand! :D

Knowledge may be life, but I know nothing(well next to nothing) and by that logic I do not really live.

In a perfect world I would think that everyone would have similar and relatively morally correct beliefs. If everyone had those beliefs then the unofficial government would be relatively totalitarian(everyone is trained to believe similarly which is a major goal of a totalitarian state). Really, a society that gets along perfectly and a society that is ruled by a totalitarian state are only different in the fact that the 1st is the ideal and the 2nd is more of the reality.

If God is such then why does it matter how I live to begin with? If I am only an invention of thought that is to be utterly destroyed at a whim then what is the difference between that existence and my problem with the material existence. Of course I have to assume some qualities about a higher being, otherwise I would not be so hopeful that he is kind. I do not seek love so much as I seek higher understanding of the nature of the universe and whatever that might provide me(divine knowledge seems like it would be better than love, which is not to say that I might not want some love in this life but rather that love is something of some importance but not a requirement)

I have no problem with my attitude, we see our own attitudes as being justified of course but ultimately I desperately cling to the only source of any truth in life. This life is filled mostly with fools, weaklings, and the rest of the pathetic masses(ok I may be toning up the darker aspects of my personality) but I have already stated where I see the source of all things in this world and it is not in this world.

By the way, get some sleep. Considering that you are tired you either live in a different time zone or have a low tolerance for a lack of sleep. I do not exactly trust you to keep your promise. Go to sleep before the Sandman kills you in a fierce rage for your defiance of the mystical sand! :D

Knowledge may be life, but I know nothing(well next to nothing) and by that logic I do not really live.

This is a really cool convo, hope to debate some of those points tomorrow. (Good psychology in getting me to bed there too... though God knows I already brushed my teeth ;) )

PS: I have a relatively high tolerance for lack of sleep I judge, but 5AM is ohh... past my bed time anyway.

Can't that higher purpose simply be to make others like ourself (We may call them our EQUALS) happy? To benefit our Equals?

If we consider ourselves to be a valid intelligence, then surely we must accept that it is desirable to spread love and happiness to all that are on our plane of existance, and all that are on other planes of existance that we can observe (Any Micro Universes we can see for example, like Freeing pop people from the Matrix).

Let's take it to a Solipsist extreme... we know that I or YOU exist, and we know that the 'OUTSIDE' exists, potentially as a unified personification of one controlling intelligence... surely interacting with that external 'outside' in a manner that brings happiness as you solipsistically understand it is better than self deception which emphasizes internal spiritual development (or at most codified (and thus external) love) at the expense of spreading unconditional self-derived love.

Surely it is better to codify spiritual reality as far as is possible AND NO FURTHER rather than make leaps of unsubstantiated prognostication?

Shrug, I know I'm judging my invented 'Macro' God by my 'Real' standards, but how can one take any one codified God mythos as truth when it has been shown to us through the conduit of this imperfect 'Real' world?

The word of God is perfect? Not unless you find an original dictation it's not!

I've studied the differences in meaning between the aramaic original of the Bible and the various English translations used today... let me tell you, the English translations of the Bible are so full of mistakes and twisted meanings as to be very worrying.

God caused these imperfections to develop in accordance with his will so that his word is now perfect for us?

Then what about all those poor Billions who've lived and died under previously imperfect translations? I find this possibility even more worrying!

Bleh I'm jabbing now.

I promise I really will go to bed now... G'night whoever you are :)
Well, I already said that I do not read the bible and I do not really know if a God cares so much about the literal text as much as he/she/it cares about the devotion, the prayers and the good moral standards. I have strict moral standards and all the like but I do not have a complete spirituality, all I even think that may exist are God, possibly servants and possibly some devil. We will find out about how badly we screwed up this life in the next but ultimately the next life is more important than this life(judgement, truth, eternity and all of those things are very important) Perhaps I make some assumptions but I feel that these assumptions are nice and useful, possibly even correct because most other current religions agree that there is or could be one ultimate higher power.(hinduism has the idea that the many gods are part of one god)

I can not see pleasure as the highest purpose in life. I may derive pleasure from an act but I do not see this as necessarily correct. Children derive much pleasure from the consumption of candy but it most certainly is a bad idea to let them eat that all of the time. Pain probably has some purpose if not definitely so. Strength could be a virtue in my philosophy(maybe one of the highest virtues but I am not talking about physical strength)

Oh well, if I am wrong then so be it. I tried, I may have died, but hopefully I will deserve the punishment for failure.

Hope you do not die in your sleep, or if you do I hope the other side is not so bad. :)

This is a really cool convo, hope to debate some of those points tomorrow. (Good psychology in getting me to bed there too... though God knows I already brushed my teeth ;) )

PS: I have a relatively high tolerance for lack of sleep I judge, but 5AM is ohh... past my bed time anyway.
So you do live in a different time zone. Cool!

My psychology is not meant to be good it is actually me just trying to derive some pleasure from life, this pleasure has some utility because I am impure and such impurity can be motivated towards a more pure purpose if it is properly pleasured(but not immorally so).

Well, go to sleep and I hope that the catfish demons do not eat you with their smelly mouths. But if you wake up and smell something, first check if you farted then look for a catfish demon, they taste good if breaded correctly. :)

So you do live in a different time zone. Cool!

My psychology is not meant to be good it is actually me just trying to derive some pleasure from life, this pleasure has some utility because I am impure and such impurity can be motivated towards a more pure purpose if it is properly pleasured(but not immorally so).

Well, go to sleep and I hope that the catfish demons do not eat you with their smelly mouths. But if you wake up and smell something, first check if you farted then look for a catfish demon, they taste good if breaded correctly. :)

'Good' was a rating of professional skill, not a moral judgement...

Yeah I got up again cos the catfish were giving me insomnia, damn bastards with their sun rising at 5.15AM nonsense.

Okay so it was actually to go to the toilet, but don't tell anyone I said that okay?

EDIT: All right you catfish, I'm coming to get you!

Nihilism literally means belief in nothing. As a philosophical position, nihilism is the view that the world, and especially human existence, is without meaning, purpose, comprehensible truth, or essential value. It is more often a charge levelled against a particular idea than a position to which someone is overtly subscribed. Movements such as Dada, Deconstructionism, and Punk have been described by various observers as "nihilist". Nihilism is also a characteristic that has been ascribed to time periods: for example, Baudrillard has called postmodernity a nihilistic epoch, and some Christian theologians and figures of authority assert that modernity and postmodernity represent the rejection of God, and therefore are nihilist.

Solipsism (from the Latin ipse = "self" and solus = "alone") is the epistemological belief that one's self is the only thing that can be known with certainty and verified. Solipsism is also commonly understood to encompass the metaphysical belief that only one's self exists, and that "existence" just means being a part of one's own mental states — all objects, people, etc, that one experiences are merely parts of one's own mind. Solipsism is first recorded with the presocratic sophist Gorgias (c. 483-375 BC) who is quoted by Sextus Empiricus as having stated:

Nothing exists
Even if something exists, nothing can be known about it, and
Even if something could be known about it, knowledge about it can't be communicated to others
Solipsism is generally identified with statement 2 and 3 from Gorgias.

A thought-experiment related to solipsism, although in principle distinct, is the Brain in a Vat. The person performing the thought-experiment considers the possibility that they are trapped within some utterly unknowable reality, much like that illustrated in the movie "The Matrix".

Nihilism literally means belief in nothing. As a philosophical position, nihilism is the view that the world, and especially human existence, is without meaning, purpose, comprehensible truth, or essential value. It is more often a charge levelled against a particular idea than a position to which someone is overtly subscribed. Movements such as Dada, Deconstructionism, and Punk have been described by various observers as "nihilist". Nihilism is also a characteristic that has been ascribed to time periods: for example, Baudrillard has called postmodernity a nihilistic epoch, and some Christian theologians and figures of authority assert that modernity and postmodernity represent the rejection of God, and therefore are nihilist.

Solipsism (from the Latin ipse = "self" and solus = "alone") is the epistemological belief that one's self is the only thing that can be known with certainty and verified. Solipsism is also commonly understood to encompass the metaphysical belief that only one's self exists, and that "existence" just means being a part of one's own mental states — all objects, people, etc, that one experiences are merely parts of one's own mind. Solipsism is first recorded with the presocratic sophist Gorgias (c. 483-375 BC) who is quoted by Sextus Empiricus as having stated:

Nothing exists
Even if something exists, nothing can be known about it, and
Even if something could be known about it, knowledge about it can't be communicated to others
Solipsism is generally identified with statement 2 and 3 from Gorgias.

A thought-experiment related to solipsism, although in principle distinct, is the Brain in a Vat. The person performing the thought-experiment considers the possibility that they are trapped within some utterly unknowable reality, much like that illustrated in the movie "The Matrix".

Wow, that's deep.... you read the first post didn't you? Almost exact same point.

"Ignorance is bliss."

There's something to be said about Darwinism here...

a.) Those who regularly ponder their own existence are inherently depressed because the answers are often blunt and unsatisfying, i.e. we are here with no help from any God (existentialism)
b.) Depressed people are more likely to commit suicide.
and therefore
c.) Those who ponder their own reality are being selectively removed from the population.

It's good for your health to be stupid.

Wait, isn't that the opposite of Darwinism, survival of the most fit, either through intelligence or strength?


Still, all the replies here are fascinating and all but I have the urge to re-inform what we were talking about: the fact that one can't prove anything actually exists by onself, and that the only thing one can prove is that oneself's thoughts exist.

On a side note, thanks to all for contributing so far with this really intriguing idea.

And Solipsism as a concept still exists whether you believe in God, Tarot, the healing power of Magnets or the great sun deity Ra. BELIEVING in God does not justify your existance... your DEEDS justify yourself.

It is truly impossible to detirmine whether any specific God exists even if you believe *a* God exists, you seem to understand this, and even admit that your religious beliefs are solely due to your social background, yet you still believe in a codified deity anyway.

Gah, that really grinds my gears, when someone *knows* they are wrong yet still *believes* they are right!

It seems to me that you only do so out of fear :(




Couple of things, if you cannot prove that you actually did anything, then how can you claim to exist?

Also, as my signature says, 0 can't = 1 in the world that we know it to be. Hence only with a supernatural (note super natural as in above laws of nature) can there even be existence. Whether or not this being exists or not though is up to the person b/c it cannot be proven otherwise to exist or not exist.

Oh ya, thanks for the website.

I suppose it depends on what you view as important for existence, ooh visit this.
http://www.philosophersnet.com/games/identity.htm

It has an interesting perspective on existence.