NationStates Jolt Archive

Why do people always talk about feudalism like it's some stupid thing invented by evil people so they could oppress the ignorant masses? It was actually the only effective way at the time to protect against barbarian invasions. Now for some unnecessary speculation to illustrate my point:


It is the year 2021. The American Empire has collapsed from massive budget deficits, riots, and terrorism. Millions of thugs flood across the borders. Cities are pillaged and burned. Your house has been destroyed by a pack of barbarians and you barely escaped with your life. Suddenly, you hear from a friend that Larry Ellison has built a giant concrete bunker in California and will let anyone who works for him hide in it when the raging hordes arrive. The terms of the agreement are:

1. You work for life.
2. You can work as farmer, programmer, domestic servant, soldier, or engineer.
3. Your children must also work for him.
4. You earn very little, considering the cost of him having to keep up that huge concrete bunker.
5. You live one his land.
6. You must also work for his heirs, or anyone who buys his concrete bunker and the surrounding estate.

Would you do it, or would you complain about how it's just returning to feudalism until a barbarian shoots you?

You act like Feudalisim would be the only form of government that could protect you from 'barbarians'

Uh, I'd rather join the barbarians.

Why do people always talk about feudalism like it's some stupid thing invented by evil people so they could oppress the ignorant masses? It was actually the only effective way at the time to protect against barbarian invasions. Now for some unnecessary speculation to illustrate my point:


It is the year 2021. The American Empire has collapsed from massive budget deficits, riots, and terrorism. Millions of thugs flood across the borders. Cities are pillaged and burned. Your house has been destroyed by a pack of barbarians and you barely escaped with your life. Suddenly, you hear from a friend that Larry Ellison has built a giant concrete bunker in California and will let anyone who works for him hide in it when the raging hordes arrive. The terms of the agreement are:

1. You work for life.
2. You can work as farmer, programmer, domestic servant, soldier, or engineer.
3. Your children must also work for him.
4. You earn very little, considering the cost of him having to keep up that huge concrete bunker.
5. You live one his land.
6. You must also work for his heirs, or anyone who buys his concrete bunker and the surrounding estate.

Would you do it, or would you complain about how it's just returning to feudalism until a barbarian shoots you?

No. But then, I do keep a stock of weapons and whatnot, and would probably try to take over said bunker, by promising all of those people just enough more than they already have to get them on my side.

No. But then, I do keep a stock of weapons and whatnot, and would probably try to take over said bunker, by promising all of those people just enough more than they already have to get them on my side.
You do realize that at that point in time, your money would mean nothing, right? What are you going to use it for?

Uh, I'd rather join the barbarians.

*grabs axe and leaves with Colodia*

Why do people always talk about feudalism like it's some stupid thing invented by evil people so they could oppress the ignorant masses? It was actually the only effective way at the time to protect against barbarian invasions. Now for some unnecessary speculation to illustrate my point:


It is the year 2021. The American Empire has collapsed from massive budget deficits, riots, and terrorism. Millions of thugs flood across the borders. Cities are pillaged and burned. Your house has been destroyed by a pack of barbarians and you barely escaped with your life. Suddenly, you hear from a friend that Larry Ellison has built a giant concrete bunker in California and will let anyone who works for him hide in it when the raging hordes arrive. The terms of the agreement are:

1. You work for life.
2. You can work as farmer, programmer, domestic servant, soldier, or engineer.
3. Your children must also work for him.
4. You earn very little, considering the cost of him having to keep up that huge concrete bunker.
5. You live one his land.
6. You must also work for his heirs, or anyone who buys his concrete bunker and the surrounding estate.

Would you do it, or would you complain about how it's just returning to feudalism until a barbarian shoots you?
I'll take my liberty (and chance it) over security any mo'fukkin day, thank you. ;) But for the pussies who can't assemble amongst themselves, they deserve what they get for what they've given up.

*grabs axe and leaves with Colodia*
It's 2021 so we're the ones with assault guns. ;)

It's 2021 so we're the ones with assault guns. ;)

I suppose I won't get to wear this fur loincloth either. :(

No. But then, I do keep a stock of weapons and whatnot, and would probably try to take over said bunker, by promising all of those people just enough more than they already have to get them on my side.

Ya. I'd join the "barbarians", raid some weapons depos, then take the bunker. Then i'd use it as a base from which to expand my fascist dominion( :mp5: ). I wish they'd make a show about that kind of thing (excluding Jeramiah and that one movie that was from the nineties and was pretty cool 2 :D ).

I would take my chances with the barbarian-hoards and start an anarchist commune and organize an ahierarchial militia to defend against them.

I would take my chances with the barbarian-hoards and start an anarchist commune and organize an ahierarchial militia to defend against them.

Good luck with that. An army without officers will fall rather quickly before my horde.

No. But then, I do keep a stock of weapons and whatnot, and would probably try to take over said bunker, by promising all of those people just enough more than they already have to get them on my side.So in other words, you're all for feudalism, so long as you're on the top of the heap?

Good luck with that. An army without officers will fall rather quickly before my horde.

Not necessarily. Armies with little or no hierarchy have existed before (in Spain and Ukraine, for example) and they often did do quite well, though they were so outnumbered in most cases that they didn't last very long.

Feudalism wasn’t evil nor was it necessary. It was inevitable.

Not necessarily. Armies with little or no hierarchy have existed before (in Spain and Ukraine, for example) and they often did do quite well, though they were so outnumbered in most cases that they didn't last very long.
Odd. Many attribute America’s success in Europe during World War II partly to our COs.

You do realize that at that point in time, your money would mean nothing, right? What are you going to use it for?
What money? I said WEAPONS and whatnot, and by whatnot, I meant canned food, tools, ammo, survival gear, etc...
As for what I would be giving the population of the aforementioned bunker, it would not be my stuff, but Ellisons.

I would start my own mini-nation called Avika. The government hierarchy would be:
president
vice president
congress
military
farmers
families in suburbs
crinimals
animals
criminals
pie
cake
dirt
urine
poo
nuclear waste
you guys if you join. It's in that order with Mr. President on top and you on bottom. Now listen to you higher up: Mr. Nukewaste. He hates you and you have to obey him.

Why do people always talk about feudalism like...


Ok, stop right there. People always talk about feudalism? I mean, hey... maybe feudalism is a frequent topic of conversation in your corner of the world, but I honestly don't think I've, in my entire life, actually debated the merits of feudalism (save for this posting). Perhaps your experience has just been different.

So in other words, you're all for feudalism, so long as you're on the top of the heap?
No, I'm actually against the concept. My point was simply that becoming a feudal serf is only a reasonable defense if you have no alternative means of individual defense, and that it isn't a particularly stable defense, because anyone with any ambition will either join the barbarians, or set up their own bunker and start raiding. Which is exactly what happened before, coincedentally. Local warfare was much more of a threat to most peasants than barbarian raiders. If I managed to take the bunker, I would probably try to swing it around into a state similar to that of a democracy at war, with small military leadership, and a very communal and egalitarian attitude towards resources and duties.

Ok, stop right there. People always talk about feudalism? I mean, hey... maybe feudalism is a frequent topic of conversation in your corner of the world, but I honestly don't think I've, in my entire life, actually debated the merits of feudalism (save for this posting). Perhaps your experience has just been different.
Actually there was a thread debating feudalism about a week ago. :p

Would you do it, or would you complain about how it's just returning to feudalism until a barbarian shoots you?
Not if I shoot the barbarians first!
*whips out M16*

So in other words, you're all for feudalism, so long as you're on the top of the heap?

Why not? :D. It's good to be god.

Many people seem to be acting as if they could take over Larry Ellison's bunker quite easily. You must notice that one of the jobs is soldier to fight against the barbarians. The CEO of Oracle isn't stupid. And in 2021, would there be many M16s floating around for you to grab?

Many people seem to be acting as if they could take over Larry Ellison's bunker quite easily. You must notice that one of the jobs is soldier to fight against the barbarians. The CEO of Oracle isn't stupid. And in 2021, would there be many M16s floating around for you to grab?

yep lol. What I would do is get as many followers and ambush a couple of barbarians then take their armor and weapons.Then we would go over the wreckage of the wasted cities looking for food or water and shelter.Then we would keep collecting and foraging and adding new members until we had quite a force. Then we go to the bunker and say we wanna be his slaves. That's when one of our undercover agents with a sharp knife volunteers to be his personal servant. That's when we kill him and before anyone finds out we kill his family. Then we group up and destroy his army,it'll be easy because they'll have no leadership. That's when we take the weapons of the dead and when we out number them we ask them to join us and live or get shot there or be givin to the barbarians as part of a peace treaty. Then we would flourish as me being the leader of the bunker, but for them nnot to over rule me I would let them have more freedoms and not force them to work for me unless they want money.

Many people seem to be acting as if they could take over Larry Ellison's bunker quite easily. You must notice that one of the jobs is soldier to fight against the barbarians. The CEO of Oracle isn't stupid. And in 2021, would there be many M16s floating around for you to grab?

If there's nobody guarding it.

Actually there was a thread debating feudalism about a week ago. :p

Yep, it was mine, and it got fewer responses than this one. :(
I guess feudalism is like wine, it gets better with age...