NationStates Jolt Archive

I am really not trying to flamebait here... I honestly want an answer, or at least a bit of reasonable debate.

Jesus says to a rich fellow who is asking how he can get into heaven, "sell everything you own and give the money to the poor". And elsewhere, "it is practically impossible for a rich man to get into heaven". (both paraphrased). He held his church services on streets and hillsides, and his private talks about religion and philosophy around the dinner table.

Yet most christian churches request or even demand tithes, build expensive cathedrals or colleges or shrines, and otherwise spend money on goodies for the church. The Catholic church is the richest of them all, with countless billions of dollars having been and being put into churches, cathedrals, art, and the single largest consentration of treasures on the planet, Vatican City.

Christians, especially Catholics or Greek Orthodox- How do you justify this open defiance of Jesus's edicts and example?

That's it, I'm starting a metal band. It's the antithesis to 50Cent's "Get Rich or Die Trying" album. The name of the band is the same as the name of this thread: "Sell Everything and Give to the Poor"

I'm catholic, we don't really pay attention to the bible so much as we do the pope, and he seems to think its ok.

I am really not trying to flamebait here... I honestly want an answer, or at least a bit of reasonable debate.

Jesus says to a rich fellow who is asking how he can get into heaven, "sell everything you own and give the money to the poor". And elsewhere, "it is practically impossible for a rich man to get into heaven". (both paraphrased). He held his church services on streets and hillsides, and his private talks about religion and philosophy around the dinner table.

Yet most christian churches request or even demand tithes, build expensive cathedrals or colleges or shrines, and otherwise spend money on goodies for the church. The Catholic church is the richest of them all, with countless billions of dollars having been and being put into churches, cathedrals, art, and the single largest consentration of treasures on the planet, Vatican City.

Christians, especially Catholics or Greek Orthodox- How do you justify this open defiance of Jesus's edicts and example?


Jesus was a commie :eek:

Seriously i dont get it either, if all the rich give to all the poor then the rich become poor and the poor become rich...nothing changed...

I'm catholic, we don't really pay attention to the bible so much as we do the pope, and he seems to think its ok.
Catholics read the Bible as part of their mass...just by going to a Catholic church on Sundays and not doing the optional/suggested bible reading, you've read the entire bible in 3 years.

Jesus was a commie :eek:

Seriously i dont get it either, if all the rich give to all the poor then the rich become poor and the poor become rich...nothing changed...

Yeah, Jesus was a commie (except he didn't buy into that "Opiate of the masses"consept).

But what we'd be looking at is even redistribution of wealth, not changing the places of the rich and the poor. (If it had been sell everything and give to a poor person [singular] you would be correct)


So far, I have:
Inspired a metal band
Gotten one catholic to essentially restate my accusation (that the christians are ignoring the bible)
and horrified one person by exposing Jesus for a socialist.

Actually...Jesus' form of "communism" uses religion as an opiate of the masses in the exact same way that modern day communists claim that capitalists use religion as an opiate of the masses.

i'm not catholic, and i'm ashamed of the sort of money they spend on goodies. i dunno about other churches, but mine spends almost 2 million dollars per year, and all of it goes into missions, alms, and things to keep the building running or help serve the congregation. and by serving the congregation, i dont mean making them comfortable or rich or anything stupid like that. most of the people on the churches payroll work fulltime hours for less than a part-time wage so that we can spend more money on things like service projects, and most of those people are the founders of our church.

If you read the new testament you'll note that materialism is inconsistent with seeking God. Not that money or posessions are inherently evil, but that the love of them is. The path is easier to follow if you're not burdened by loving things other than God.

The early church described in Paul's Letters was a socialist commune.

I am really not trying to flamebait here... I honestly want an answer, or at least a bit of reasonable debate.

Jesus says to a rich fellow who is asking how he can get into heaven, "sell everything you own and give the money to the poor". And elsewhere, "it is practically impossible for a rich man to get into heaven". (both paraphrased). He held his church services on streets and hillsides, and his private talks about religion and philosophy around the dinner table.

Yet most christian churches request or even demand tithes, build expensive cathedrals or colleges or shrines, and otherwise spend money on goodies for the church. The Catholic church is the richest of them all, with countless billions of dollars having been and being put into churches, cathedrals, art, and the single largest consentration of treasures on the planet, Vatican City.

Christians, especially Catholics or Greek Orthodox- How do you justify this open defiance of Jesus's edicts and example?
Christian poverty is, in most Western religious organizations, an oxymoron. The primary reason for this is that Christianity has moved very, very far from the original Church. There are portions of the Bible which indicate that Christians are not prohibited from becoming rich, but they are always qualified with admonitions to be humble and thank God for giving you the wherewithall to help others.

The primary reason so many "Christian organizations" have so radically departed from the teachings of primative Christianity is that religious organizations tend, over time, to take on the values of the societies in which they exist. Western society is highly materialistic and money-oriented. So most Western Christian organizations have been "corrupted," as it were, by these cultural values.

Make sense?

If you want to illustrate just how far some Westernized Christians have departed from the primitive teachings of Christianity, just ask them if they've ever sued another Christian in court. Christians are admonished to never sue other Christians, and to never charge interest for any money they lend. Amazing, yes? :)

The part about the guy dying and being ressurected from the dead is literally true. But the part about selling all your stuff and giving it to the poor is too far fetched to believe in.

The part about the guy dying and being ressurected from the dead is literally true. But the part about selling all your stuff and giving it to the poor is too far fetched to believe in.
You're being sarcastic, yes? Which is easier to believe, that a great teacher ( or the Son of God, if you prefer ) would tell a wealthy man to sell his possessions and give the money to the poor so he could follow him, or that someone had been raised from the dead? :)

The part about the guy dying and being ressurected from the dead is literally true. But the part about selling all your stuff and giving it to the poor is too far fetched to believe in.
See? It's easy to believe in fairy tales.

The early church described in Paul's Letters was a socialist commune.
"They had all things in common." Sounds like a religious version of pure communism to me. :)

I actually gave half a chocolate bar to a granny on the bus stop just yesterday. Does that count?

Capitalism (and this is well iterated in an American book written in the late 1800s or early 1900s, whose name escapes me) pretty much nerfed the Seven Deadly Sins...most specifically: greed.

I actually gave half a chocolate bar to a granny on the bus stop just yesterday. Does that count?
Only you can answer that question. It would depend on your motivation and on how much the candy bar meant to you. ;)

I sold my watch to buy a hobo a hairbrush. Then something ironic ensued.

Capitalism (and this is well iterated in an American book written in the late 1800s or early 1900s, whose name escapes me) pretty much nerfed the Seven Deadly Sins...most specifically: greed.
True. But given that very, very few people even understand what Christianity requires of its adherants, and the tendency of most people to measure their worth by what they own, very understandable.

Only you can answer that question. It would depend on your motivation and on how much the candy bar meant to you. ;)


She did seem to appreciate it more than I would have, so...

"They had all things in common." Sounds like a religious version of pure communism to me. :)

communism is a christian heresy

Regarding tithes in the New Testament - the purpose was to fund the normal needs of the Church. Buildings, food for the poor, etc.

Most churches today still need tithe money to build/maintain churches, wages for pastors and workers, missionary work, help the poor, etc. Not much difference between then and now. The members pool their money to accomplish the mission.

I can't speak for non-protestant churches.

Priests in catholic churches don't have wages--but it does cost money to keep them around (room/board).

Blah, blah, BLAH!
Jesus was an opportunistic politician. Jews were buying/selling in the holy temples while others starved and he saw the hipocracy. He found a niche and exploited it.
As far as modern Christian churches are concerned, any institution that has survived for long will become bureaucratic and thus look out for itself. Example: the U.S. government, once a institution for the people, by the people now is more concerned for its own survival than serving the public.
Natural progression of things.

As far as modern Christian churches are concerned, any institution that has survived for long will become bureaucratic and thus look out for itself. Example: the U.S. government, once a institution for the people, by the people now is more concerned for its own survival than serving the public.
Natural progression of things.

Sorry? U.S. government = church???

EDIT: I get it now, but you can't compare the two!

One of the pleasures of not believe in such things is that I can kick hobos on the street without feeling guilty! Yay! In your FACE, homeless people!

It's lucky Jesus never actually had any real power, or we'd still be recovering from the economic downfall he'd have caused...

Sorry? U.S. government = church???

EDIT: I get it now, but you can't compare the two!

Why not? A bureaucracy is a bureaucracy no matter how noble the intent.

When any revolutionary movement becomes institutionalised it is no longer revolutionary. It becomes an organisim with its own inertia and no longer has any real ties with its origen

Well, when God instructed his people on the type of temple he wanted this is some of what he demanded:

10 "Have them make a chest of acacia wood—two and a half cubits long, a cubit and a half wide, and a cubit and a half high. 11 [B]Overlay it with pure gold, both inside and out, and make a gold molding around it. 12 Cast four gold rings for it and fasten them to its four feet, with two rings on one side and two rings on the other. 13 Then make poles of acacia wood and overlay them with gold. 14 Insert the poles into the rings on the sides of the chest to carry it. 15 The poles are to remain in the rings of this ark; they are not to be removed. 16 Then put in the ark the Testimony, which I will give you.

17 "Make an atonement cover [c] of pure gold—two and a half cubits long and a cubit and a half wide. [d] 18 And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. 19 Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends. 20 The cherubim are to have their wings spread upward, overshadowing the cover with them. The cherubim are to face each other, looking toward the cover. 21 Place the cover on top of the ark and put in the ark the Testimony, which I will give you. 22 There, above the cover between the two cherubim that are over the ark of the Testimony, I will meet with you and give you all my commands for the Israelites.

23 "Make a table of acacia wood—two cubits long, a cubit wide and a cubit and a half high. [e] 24 Overlay it with pure gold and make a gold molding around it. 25 Also make around it a rim a handbreadth [f] wide and put a gold molding on the rim. 26 Make four gold rings for the table and fasten them to the four corners, where the four legs are. 27 The rings are to be close to the rim to hold the poles used in carrying the table. 28 Make the poles of acacia wood, overlay them with gold and carry the table with them. 29 And make its plates and dishes of pure gold, as well as its pitchers and bowls for the pouring out of offerings. 30 Put the bread of the Presence on this table to be before me at all times.

31 "Make a lampstand of pure gold and hammer it out, base and shaft; its flowerlike cups, buds and blossoms shall be of one piece with it. 32 Six branches are to extend from the sides of the lampstand—three on one side and three on the other. 33 Three cups shaped like almond flowers with buds and blossoms are to be on one branch, three on the next branch, and the same for all six branches extending from the lampstand. 34 And on the lampstand there are to be four cups shaped like almond flowers with buds and blossoms. 35 One bud shall be under the first pair of branches extending from the lampstand, a second bud under the second pair, and a third bud under the third pair—six branches in all. 36 The buds and branches shall all be of one piece with the lampstand, hammered out of pure gold.

37 "Then make its seven lamps and set them up on it so that they light the space in front of it. 38 Its wick trimmers and trays are to be of pure gold. 39 A talent [g] of pure gold is to be used for the lampstand and all these accessories. 40 See that you make them according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.


If you continue on to chapter 26 and read the full instructions you will see that he asks that the temple be made with the finest fabrics, the finest wood, and plenty of gold. Obviously, making God's house the best you can possibly afford is very firmly founded in scripture.

Why not? A bureaucracy is a bureaucracy no matter how noble the intent.

When any revolutionary movement becomes institutionalised it is no longer revolutionary. It becomes an organisim with its own inertia and no longer has any real ties with its origen

Is bureaucracy supposed to be bad? I agree that all things cool when left alone, therefore even bureaucracy needs some spicing up from time to time.

Well, when God instructed his people on the type of temple he wanted this is some of what he demanded:



If you continue on to chapter 26 and read the full instructions you will see that he asks that the temple be made with the finest fabrics, the finest wood, and plenty of gold. Obviously, making God's house the best you can possibly afford is very firmly founded in scripture.


Oh, I see you got that memo also.

"It is far easier for a camel to walk through the eye of a needle, than a rich man to enter Heaven."

Well, when God instructed his people on the type of temple he wanted this is some of what he demanded:



If you continue on to chapter 26 and read the full instructions you will see that he asks that the temple be made with the finest fabrics, the finest wood, and plenty of gold. Obviously, making God's house the best you can possibly afford is very firmly founded in scripture.

It's the theology of beauty. I am Orthodox, and when I enter a church I am entering into the Kingdom of Heaven. The beauty of our surroundings takes us out of the world and focuses us on God and His gifts rather than earthly cares and concerns. Then there is worship with all the senses. Sight is one of the most obvious, of course, with gold and embroidered vestments and icons and candles. Smell, with incense. Taste, with communion, as well as the blessed bread that is not used for communion. Sound, with chanting, singing, and bells on the censors. Touch, with making the sign of the cross, bowing, prostrations, and veneration (kissing) of icons, crosses, holy relics, the chalice, and each other.

I also bring to your attention John 12:3-8:

Then Mary took about a pint of pure nard, an expensive perfume; she poured it on Jesus' feet and wiped his feet with her hair. And the house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume.

But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, "Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year's wages." He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.

"Leave her alone," Jesus replied. "It was intended that she should save this perfume for the day of my burial. You will always have the poor among you, but you will not always have me."

Most have missed the point why Jesus said that.

The young man asked "Good master, what MUST I DO to enter into the Kingdom of God".

He challenged Jesus the law. Christians all should know that there is only 2 ways to get to heaven, self-perfection or redemption trough the blood of Christ.

Later the young man prouded himself saying "All these things I have kept since Youth". Then only God challenged his love for money which is to poke holes in his pride. If he truly was "Righteous" or unblemished or sinless, then he would have easily let it all go and depend on God.

Jesus isn't saying riches is bad. But if you depend on your riches and not God, once it all fades, your going to be in big big trouble.